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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 2012

Discussion with Ulster Unionist Party

Apologies have been received from Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP, MLA. I remind members of the joint committee, guests and those in the Visitors Gallery to switch off their mobile phones completely because they interfere with the recording equipment.

The minutes of the meetings of 27 April and 24 May have been circulated. Are they agreed to? Agreed.

I am pleased to welcome the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA, and his party colleague, Mr. John McCallister, MLA. Mr. Nesbitt was elected leader on 31 March and I take the opportunity to congratulate him on his election. Before entering politics he worked in broadcasting with BBC Radio Ulster and Ulster Television. From 2008 to 2010 he served as a commissioner for victims and survivors. He is the first elected Unionist politician to address the committee, the members of which appreciate his attendance. They look forward to positive engagement with him on a range of issues of mutual interest and concern.

Before I invite Mr. Nesbitt to make his presentation, I advise him that he is protected by absolute privilege in respect of his utterances to the committee. If he is directed by it to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continues to do so, he will be entitled thereafter to qualified privilege only. Only comments on or evidence related to the subject matter of the meeting are to be made and given. Mr. Nesbitt is asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, he does not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

A vote has just been called in the Dáil and the sitting will have to be suspended for a number of minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.

We will now proceed in public session. I remind members that our guests, Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister, are attending a debate in the Seanad at 12.15 p.m. I invite Mr. Nesbitt to make his presentation to the committee.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

Thank you, Chairman. I consider it a great privilege to lead the Ulster Unionist Party, and an equal honour to be here today to make these comments. When I was told that no Unionist leader had ever spoken in a formal sense in Leinster House, my initial reaction was that it could not be true. I accept that it is so but, to my mind, it is not right given the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. As such, I am happy to take this opportunity to address the omission.

I am particularly pleased to be here in the week that saw the completion of four days of celebrations of Her Majesty's diamond jubilee. It would be absurd to expect the parliamentarians whom I am addressing - who stood and gained election to the parliament of a republic, with an elected president - to support the principle of an hereditary Head of State. Leaving aside the principle for one moment, however, this monarch is an individual who has devoted her life to public service. In an era when we teach our children that there is no such thing as a job for life, 60 years of selfless devotion to duty is something we all can admire and aspire to, whether monarchists, Unionists, republicans or Nationalists. I take this opportunity to acknowledge the visit by Queen Elizabeth II to the Republic last May. To go where she went, to pay her respects in the manner she paid them was, for me, a great act of leadership and an example to us all that one can set about such things without compromise to one's own identity, heritage and belief systems, in the same way that I have no fear of my unionism being undermined by my attendance here today, nor my Protestantism being diluted by attending a funeral mass.

I am a great admirer of the work of John Hewitt, a poet whose remarks on identity are often misquoted. In a letter he wrote in 1964, he said:

I always maintained that our loyalties had an order to Ulster, to Ireland, to the British Archipelago, to Europe; and that anyone who skipped a step or missed a link falsified the total. The Unionists missed out Ireland; the Northern Nationalists (The Green Tories) couldn't see the Ulster under their feet; the Republicans missed out both Ulster and the Archipelago; and none gave any heed to Europe at all.

I believe that passage is the genesis of Mr. Hewitt's proposition that he was an Ulsterman, an Irishman, British and European, and that to deny any part was to diminish the whole. That is a lesson I hope we have all learned during the past 40-plus years.

My own spin on John Hewitt's multi-identity is that I am a proud Unionist, happy and determined to promote and advance the Union of Northern Ireland with England, Scotland and Wales. Yet I am also extremely proud of the day I wore the green vest of Ireland, with the shamrock on my chest. It was nothing more than a schools' international athletics event, but it was a great day for me and my parents when I ran the 400m hurdle race for Ireland at Meadowbank in Edinburgh. Let there be no doubt - for one day, I was out to beat the English, the Scots and the Welsh. I wanted to bring that trophy on the aeroplane back to Dublin, as many Ulstermen and women have done across many sporting and cultural occasions down the years.

This joint committee of Deputies and Senators has oversight of the implementation of the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement. Fourteen years on much has been achieved and it would be churlish not to acknowledge and celebrate that fact. If this is to be an honest conversation, we must also acknowledge and highlight what remains to be done and we should also question why it has taken so long.

I referred to the Queen's visit to Dublin last year as one of the greatest acts of leadership I have witnessed. By contrast, there was the decision of the last Lord Mayor of Belfast not to shake the hand of a 15 year old girl who had achieved her Duke of Edinburgh silver award because she had come through army cadets and then he stood down as Lord Mayor early to avoid the Queen's forthcoming visit to Belfast. I do not wish what I am saying to be seen as some sort of petty party political comment because it is not meant to be. The fact is that the handshake is at the core of the symbolism of our political journey. I often shake the hand of Martin McGuinness, a self-confessed IRA commander. I could argue I have personal reason not to. On 25 January 1973, the IRA blew up my father's linen business. I did not know it then but that was the last day that he got out of bed with a true sense of purpose in his life. I am lucky that I can move on and focus on the 60,000 citizens of Northern Ireland who are currently without a job, with no reason to get out of bed or sense of achievement when they go bed at the end of the day. I understand the importance of a handshake.

We often talk of the need for apologies. For me, an apology - "I'm sorry" - is relatively easy. It is swimming in the shallow end, the deep end of the pool, that involves acknowledgement, recognition and outreach. A handshake can convey all that. The handshake has been a constant in this process. I note Peter Robinson has yet to offer a handshake, at least in public, to Martin McGuinness. As a news reporter with UTV, I chased the then Secretary of State, Patrick Mayhew, around the Sheraton Hotel in Washington waiting to see if he would shake the hand of Gerry Adams when they first met in 1995. We all remember that awkward moment outside Government Buildings when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, John Hume and Gerry Adams discovered a three-handed shake needs a bit of planning in advance. I look forward to the Queen and Martin McGuinness shaking hands later this month. The handshake has been a potent symbol of progress. For all political leaders and all of us, there is no à la carte in the peace process. It is full-on, or full-stop, symbolically or practically.

In moving on to deal with the past, which they say is the Achilles' heel of the peace process, I would like to share a story of my time as a commissioner for the victims and survivors of the Troubles. I was approached by a man from west Belfast. His father had been in the IRA and was shot dead by the army. Of all four commissioners, he asked for me in particular. As I started out in that role, it felt like a huge challenge, coming from suburban east Belfast because he had asked for me particularly and I feared that he would ask me to do something and did not know what that might be. His story was that he was one of several children and they loved their mother dearly. She worked as a housewife and mother and thus was always there for them. They loved their father as well, but he worked during the day and went out a good deal at night and so they did not see as much of him as they did of their mother. Then, one night, they discovered why he went out so much at night. The son told me about waking up in the middle of the night, hearing the screams of his mother, a commotion downstairs and before he got to the bottom of the stairs, he had instinctively realised his father was dead. Over the course of the next few days he came to realise why his father went out so much at night. He was in the IRA. For the next number of years, their mother worked tirelessly, getting them out of bed, fed, clothed, washed, off to school, picking them up at the school gates in the afternoon, keeping them out of trouble, making them do their homework and, effectively, making the most of a bad lot. The children grew up, married, left their mother with an empty nest, old before her time and with no motivation to get out of bed. That is the point at which the son came to see me. The difficulty was that he was worried about his mother, worried he would call to the house one day to find she had passed away in the armchair beside the fire. I got the children together and they were split down the middle in that half of them blamed their father for the past 20 plus years in that none of this would have happened if he had not joined the IRA, but the other half rose up and said "don't you ever disrespect our father's memory like that again". It was clear to me that when their mother would pass away, that family would split and that this split would continue into another generation and cousins would not be allowed to play with cousins - people who were born decades after their grandfather had died.

There is a question I never asked my friend from west Belfast - it was did his father blow up my father's linen business. That is the story of the Troubles. It is the story of Civil War here, the miners' strike in England and of conflict. Our challenge and duty is to intervene to break that cycle, the intergenerational cycle. We need the members' help and the help of London and Brussels, but members can be in no doubt that the Ulster Unionist Party will be brave, imaginative and responsible, as we were in 1998, but we cannot do this alone.

I would also like to be clear that we will not participate in a process, in dealing with this past process, that attempts to re-write history, especially in a manner that paints the state and its agents and representatives as the sole villains. Everybody needs to put his or her hand up on this, as our Prime Minister has already done over Bloody Sunday and our Secretary of State has done over aspects of how the Claudy bomb was handled. We now await some reciprocal acknowledgements.

Last week, one of the parties to our coalition government withdrew from the working group on cohesion, sharing and integration. Again, this is not a moment to score party political points, rather, it is an opportunity to alert this committee to the depth of difficulty we are encountering in attempting to achieve a shared, rather than a shared-out future. There is no better physical example of the difficulty than the plans for the development of the former Girdwood army barracks in north Belfast. This is a set of proposals, which we have supported reluctantly and only because we believe it is an acknowledgement of the reality of life on the ground. The challenge of creating a shared future is to convince people that it is a good idea.

A friend of mine who is a businessman in Belfast put it this way - he said our housing is segregated, our schools are segregated and many of our sports are segregated, and that we attend separate churches. He said that the only arena where people have to mix is the workplace, and businessmen and women have a legal obligation placed on them to ensure they do. That is not good enough. We, the politicians, need to take the lead; we need to set the example. We need to take more responsibility than business people, not less.

The first Northern Ireland Peace Monitoring Report, published by the Community Relations Council this year, defines the task. It states that "... the majority of the population lives in areas that are, at minimum, 80% either Catholic or Protestant". It also states that 67% of Catholics and 73% of Protestants live in such areas. It further states that approximately "91% of estates in Belfast fall into the ‘very polarised' category, which [is] ... defined as having 80% or more single identity". Yet both communities face the same issues. When I expressed an interest in areas of multiple deprivation after my election, one of the invitations I received was from a group of young people who call themselves the Tigers Bay Ambassadors. They live in north Belfast, not far from Girdwood. We sat in their community centre, listening to under ten year olds say they did not know what they wanted to be when they grew up. We walked the streets, looking at dereliction, abandoned housing and the rest. We visited the small artificial surface where they kick a football. Then we turned a corner and straight ahead in the docks was the Titanic signature project, involving more than £90 million pounds of investment in their face, but Tantalus-like, because it is out of reach of their ambitions. The Tigers Bay Ambassadors are among the group of people who are most likely to under-achieve at school. OFMDFM established in 2002 and 2003 that this was the fact and Dawn Purvis’s taskforce confirmed nothing had changed almost a decade later. Boys from working class Protestant areas are most likely to under-achieve at school or, to put it another way, they are most likely to be failed by us.

Our answer is two-fold. First, stop trying to smash the part of the education system that delivers academic excellence. Grammar schools and academic achievement are not evil. Let us ask children a different question. Instead of asking them how intelligent they are and measuring it in the narrow academic sense of ability in English, maths and science, let us ask children in what way they are intelligent and be as respectful of ability in vocational, sporting and artistic spheres as we are of the academic. In that way each child can have their own development plan tailored to their individual spark of ability, creativity and talent. Second, and in conclusion, we need a single education system. We must merge four into one. That will be a huge challenge to the churches, the vested interests in education and to us, the politicians.

I thank Mr. Mike Nesbitt for his presentation. I will now call on members of the committee to ask questions. I will start with Senator McAleese and then take members in order of their indication.

I welcome Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister, representing the Ulster Unionist Party here today. I wish Mr. Nesbitt well as the recently elected leader of the party as he charts the course of the party into the future.

As we have heard, this is a very significant occasion because it is the first time which an elected member of a Unionist party – we have two today – has engaged in this way in Leinster House. I congratulate them for coming today and sharing their thoughts with us. Their presence here today speaks volumes about where we are at in the peace process generally, one that was hard fought for and one which we need to mind. Mr. Nesbitt has just mentioned some of the problems we face in the minding of the peace process such as housing and education.

The presence of the Unionist politicians speaks volumes also of the developing relationships within Northern Ireland between Unionists and Nationalists and it also speaks volumes about the relationships on this island, North and South. My question is a very simple one. While respecting different traditions and ambitions, how can these relationships be further strengthened and how can more trust be established for the benefit of everyone on this island and particularly for the next generation?

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

I will ask Mr. John McCallister to say a few words because he sits on the working group on cohesion, sharing and integration, CSI, in Northern Ireland which is the drive towards a shared future among the communities on that side of the Border.

From my point of view, whatever area I have worked in I have often found that one's policies whether it is for business, a victims' commission or a political party are quite easy, it is people that are the big challenge. Unless one knows people it makes it very difficult. Dialogue and engagement are key. President Abraham Lincoln of the United States was greeting people in a line one day and one person shook his hand and went past and the President turned to his aide and said that he did not like that person, that he must spend more time getting to know them. Perhaps Mr. McCallister would like to speak about the difficulties and challenges of the CSI.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

The CSI strategy has bedevilled us for a number of years. Last May, after programme for government talks, it was agreed that we would arrange the strategy. There was quite a slow start to it but it has been fairly intensive from last October right through until now. We are hoping to have it agreed by the summer recess which gives us up until 7 July. If we need longer we can take it but we have made significant progress on it. Some of the big stumbling blocks, as Mr. Nesbitt indicated, on which we would like to see movement are towards a single education system. As he highlighted, that is key to how we would see us building a shared and reconciled society starting literally in the school. What is bizarre in our education system is that there is almost a totally integrated system for nursery provision yet the children go in separate directions when they start primary school proper. We would like to see movement in that regard. As in any process, we will probably not get everything we want. There is a debate in that regard.

There is also a debate on how we monitor progress on a shared future and good relations, how we separate out the role from being the critical friend and funding some of the groups. It looks as if we have broadly got agreement on how we will achieve that. Those are the main issues. We would also like to see robust actions plans both from the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, OFM-DFM, and the main Government Departments. We are of the view that virtually every Department has a role in good relations and in building a shared future. The Department for Social Development is key. Mr. Nesbitt talked about the Girdwood barracks, how we develop that, build on it and move towards shared housing right throughout Northern Ireland. One only has to look at some of the statistics Mr. Nesbitt cited, which show that as many as 80% of people are living in areas in which they are effectively comfortable. That is not healthy for a society emerging out of conflict. That is one of the big challenges as the peace process moves and we are trying to normalise politics. Dealing with the past has continually hung over us for a number of years. I hope that is also going to be addressed but we might find it difficult. Any of the issues on which the group cannot agree will be pushed up to party leaders. Regular meetings of party leaders are held to try to find agreement on a range of issues. Anything the CSI group cannot agree, whether it is on education, implementation or the action plan will be pushed up to meetings of party leaders.

I am relatively upbeat that we might be edging towards a solution on CSI. We are open to suggestions. We have agreed that we cannot call it CSI because the brand exists and everyone thinks of a television programme. It is a brand. We need to come up with a different title so it might go back to "A Shared Future". We are open to suggestions. We have racked our brains thinking of a better title. We would be pleased to hear from anyone who can suggest a better name. We are close to getting agreement. I am hopeful that we could get that agreed by the summer recess.

I welcome both gentlemen to the joint committee. I congratulate Mr. Nesbitt on his recent success in the leadership. I wish him well. No doubt he has hit the ground running. I also acknowledge the presence of Mr. John McCallister, my colleague on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. It would be remiss not to mention our other colleague Mr. Jim Wells from the DUP, because he recently sat in Mr. Nesbitt's chair at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children. Mr. Wells might have one up on him but they can work that out among themselves.

I make the point for this reason. Growing up in Donegal, as part of Ulster, 30 years ago this summer when Northern Ireland was playing in the 1982 World Cup, as a Donegal man I was supporting Gerry Armstrong and Martin O'Neill in their famous victory over Spain. There is a connectivity there; an all-Ulster thing is going on. My memories of unionism, be it DUP or UUP, was the single narrative of "Ulster says No". That was what shaped my perception of Unionism. It was a negative narrative but it has been usurped by their colleagues in Sinn Féin who have borrowed the "No" narrative in many respects down South. They can battle that out among themselves as well.

Today I wish to acknowledge the proactive approach of Unionists to dialogue down South. They are open for business and working on key issues we share, be it on health or transportation. They see the importance of dialogue. I acknowledge Mr. Nesbitt's party. I am aware Mr. McCallister has been doing a lot of work behind the scenes. While there may not have been many formal meetings, many informal meetings have taken place. This is important. It is about respecting not only the identity about which Mr. Nesbitt spoke but also acknowledging the importance of co-operation and communication.

I have a question for Mr. Nesbitt on the North-South parliamentary forum, on which a working group is up and running. We have been working towards its establishment. That may not be its title; there might be conversations and negotiations on this. However, much good work has been done in that regard. The Government and I see it as having the potential to be a great mechanism for enhanced communication and dialogue. However, the process has reached an impasse, but we are confident we will get over the hurdles. Mr. Nesbitt might outline his party's position on the forum.

Having spoken to many people in Northern Ireland who lived through the Troubles, I am aware that they have to deal with the past in their own way. It can be a lonely journey for them, but there is unfinished business. Mr. Nesbitt has mentioned that his party is reaching out to London and Brussels; the Parliament in Dublin is also interested in working with his party in dealing with many of the issues that affect many on both sides of the Border.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

On the last point, I meant to include - I hope I did - Dublin which has a role to play.

On Monday my party will publish its initial paper on the issue of dealing with the past. I am aware Sinn Féin has an initiative through Declan Kearney, with which I will engage. No one party can take ownership of the process. It could be a negative if one party was seen to do so. We are, therefore, not trying to usurp, rather we are offering some initial thoughts on the parameters of the process.

In terms of the interparliamentary forum, it is not something to which I have devoted a huge amount of thought. On the one hand, we are for small government, not anything that could be perceived to be adding an additional layer of bureaucracy. Against this, the Parliament has 108 Members, 107 of whom are aligned to the Executive. We are interested in looking at ways to properly separate the Executive branch and the parliamentary branch of governance. I see at least the potential for co-operation and good work between Dáil Éireann and the Assembly. I am very open to the idea.

I thank the Deputy for his support for Northern Ireland. I was in the Luis Casanova Stadium on 25 June 1982. As a bizarre aside, four years later, when the Northern Ireland team travelled to Mexico for the 1986 World Cup, I was commentating on one of the matches during which my producer pointed to a sign in the corner of the ground in which the Northern Ireland fans were seated. They had a very long banner which read "Guadalajara still says No".

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

To add to Mr. Nesbitt's comments on the North-South forum, it is about examining areas in which it would make sense for us to co-operate and meet people; for example, I have appeared before the health committee here. From my point of view, Daisy Hill is a big hospital in which people from north County Louth are treated in the accident and emergency and dialysis departments. The new Erne Hospital due to open in Enniskillen shortly will treat patients from counties Donegal, Sligo and Cavan. We have to co-operate in services such as child protection, which is imperative. As Mr. Nesbitt rightly said, not all of the power rests with the Executive branch of government. Deputy Joe McHugh, through his work as Co-Chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, can build relationships in that he has a point of contact. That is also an important aspect.

As I am conscious of the time constraints, I will take questions from two members at a time.

Mr. Conor Murphy, MP, MLA

The delegates are very welcome. I am delighted that both of them have attended to contribute to the committee's work. Therefore, their presence is significant. I hope it marks the beginning of broader engagement between Unionism and the work of this committee. In welcoming them I reserve the right, as they will understand, to respectfully challenge some of the remarks made in their contributions. Interestingly, my father's business was also blown up by the IRA. Therefore, as well as being Ulstermen, we have that much in common. I was struck by the reference to the 1982 football tournament because I was in Crumlin Road prison at the time and we made an arrangement with loyalist prisoners to allow them out to watch the matches involving Northern Ireland. Therefore, that form of facilitation and dialogue is not new; it is not just part of the peace process, it was happening then also.

I am disappointed by the reference made to the Belfast mayor who was a positive force. It was acknowledged quickly by Sinn Féin that the issue - it was not pre-planned - had been badly handled, but it is also the case that the arrangement to leave office early was made to facilitate a request by the incoming mayor and Unionists. I am not sure if the Ulster Unionist Party was part of it, but the Democratic Unionist Party was. It was to facilitate their desire to be involved in the Jubilee celebrations. It was presented in the media as a snub and I am disappointed, perhaps because of lack of knowledge of the situation in Belfast City Council, the Deputy chose to repeat it. Even in my council area dialogue was ongoing to facilitate the incoming mayor in taking office instead of Sinn Féin because of events that were considered important to Unionists. The arrangement made to facilitate should be acknowledged.

I agree with many of the comments made about education and the necessity to challenge vested interests in a system that has divided those involved in it. I fundamentally disagree with the adherence to inequality in protecting institutions which are not about serving the needs of the people. Reference was made to Tiger's Bay and other working class areas across the North, but they are more about preserving tradition and status. This inequality in education requires to be challenged if we are to put together an education system which will serve the needs of children rather than those of institutions.

Following on from Deputy Joe McHugh's question, there are aspects of the Good Friday Agreement and the Belfast Agreement, of which members and we are supporters. There are outstanding issues; it is not just a matter of adding another layer of bureaucracy but of establishing trust and good faith. The east-west institutions under the Good Friday Agreement are operating properly, fully and faithfully. However, there are outstanding issues North and South and rather than considering them in terms of adding another layer of bureaucracy, they should be considered in the context of the measures signed up to by all the parties which supported the Good Friday Agreement. They must be resolved. This would help in establishing dialogue and relationships between the parliamentary institutions on this island. The consultative civic forum would also serve a useful purpose on the island. I ask the Deputy to give due consideration to this and be positive towards these institutions. It is not just a matter of establishing something that would have some value.

I, too, welcome Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister. This is a very positive step. By common consent, the way to resolve all of the outstanding difficulties is through dialogue, negotiations and working together for the common good. It is very encouraging that the delegates are present today and will continue to attend as we try to resolve the outstanding difficulties.

Mr. Nesbitt and I shook hands long before he became the leader of his party. I believe it was at the Famine memorial in Boston some years ago. Was that a record?

We had very informative and excellent presentations by prisoner groups from both sides of the divide in the conflict. All were combatants at one time or another. The presentations were very helpful and enlightening. The work being done behind the scenes in the respective communities to try to build the commitment to reconciliation is effectively coming from the ground up, which is a very positive sign. It puts the onus on elected representatives, irrespective of party or social category, to offer the leadership necessary to bring about reconciliation and to address all the outstanding issues associated with the conflict.

My party, Sinn Féin, has been advocating an international truth commission to deal with the more sensitive aspects of the conflict. I refer, in particular, to state, republican and loyalist involvement in certain cases that remain unresolved. What is the delegation's view on having an independent international truth commission? Would it be a good idea and would it be helpful? Would the delegation support it?

Mr. Nesbitt mentioned in his presentation a single education system. To remove the remnants of sectarianism, there ought to be a full and integrated education system. An education system divided upon lines of religion only adds to the difficulties. Students need the opportunity to have a full education. For economic reasons, many young people never develop their gifts and talents. It is the job of the state and elected representatives to ensure every young person has an opportunity.

There are outstanding issues related to the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. I hope the presence today of members of the Ulster Unionist Party is an indication of the party's commitment to addressing the outstanding issues.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

I acknowledge the robust party-political defence.

With regard to education, I am not sure we are as far away from what is desired as may seem to be the case. We become fixated on the label outside the building rather than the children within it. On Deputy Ferris's point, I believe every child on this island has a spark of ability, creativity and talent. It is our job to find it and to nurture it, and not to push it into the academic arena at the cost of undervaluing the vocational, sporting and artistic, which we have done too much in Northern Ireland. Rory McIlroy, for example, went to a grammar school. Had he been forced to pursue a purely academic career, he might now be some sort of assistant accountant in Holywood, County Down, rather than one of the greatest ambassadors Northern Ireland has ever had on the international stage.

Is there a problem with assistant accountants?

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

Absolutely not. However, as global megastars, accountants do not really cut it until they get to senior level.

Some of the highest achievers are coming out of grammar schools. This is good but what is clearly unacceptable is the number of people coming out of schools with no academic achievements. One does not necessarily fix the latter by deconstructing the former. If we could have a conversation about and focus on the multiple intelligences of individual children, I would hope the conditions in which we needed to build a service would follow therefrom. It can be argued that social mobility is enhanced by a grammar school system, but that may be a debate for another day.

Deputy Ferris's final point was on the parts of the Belfast Agreement that remain unimplemented and need to be addressed. I agree fully. One of the main challenges concerns the paragraphs on prisoners. The fifth of the five paragraphs, which is to ensure former prisoners get retrained and re-skilled and can find employment, has not been delivered upon. That will be a considerable challenge. Fourteen years after the agreement, we have not done well in addressing that commitment.

I join in welcoming the delegates. I join the co-chairman of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly in congratulating Mr. Nesbitt on his election as party leader and I wish him well in his role. I agree with him that he will hit the ground running. Some of the points to which he referred, and to which I will make reference, are very exciting. His thoughts on education, in addition to those on making it non-sectarian, are extremely interesting and would be relevant in any jurisdiction. I hope the presence of the delegates today will be the start of a process leading to much more interaction. Everyone on this committee aspires to having the delegates present as members of the committee. If there is anything we can do as a committee to realise that objective quickly, we will be delighted to do so.

The delegates' thoughts on education are very interesting. I want to make reference to them, as I have no doubt will my colleague, who is education spokesperson for his party. On the view that people should be educated together, I could not agree more. I am a product of a second level school that was co-educational and which included all social classes. It is an exciting model and it works.

I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, which is strong on maintaining its ethos in schools. I agree with the objective of the delegates. How do we get to that point? Could we consider shared facilities and campuses and working on everything short of the religious dimension, which seems to be a stumbling block? In the school I attended, the authorities managed to maintain the various ethoses. Will the delegates elaborate on how this could be achieved? What would be the gradations along the way? The delegates have identified a considerable issue. Reconciliation ought to occur within the school system. Mr. McCallister stated it is bleak that, although there is reconciliation at nursery level, a division arises thereafter. This is unhealthy and wrong.

I am fascinated by Mr. Nesbitt's point on multiple intelligences, which is not just a North-South issue. There is huge potential to develop the concept. While there are enormous prejudices, taboos and conventions in this regard, the issue merits further examination.

I invite Mr. McCallister to comment on doctor-on-call services, ambulance services and fire services along the Border being pooled. At present there is a dichotomy resulting in a duplication of services and lack of efficiency. This is an area in which co-operation could work.

I join the Chairman and other members in extending a warm welcome to Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister.

To follow on from Deputy Joe O'Reilly's point, will Mr. Nesbitt elaborate on what he means by a single education system? Does he mean the Department or the State would be the patron body for all schools, both at primary and secondary level? A major discussion is ongoing on foot of the establishment of the forum on patronage by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, in which an effort is being made to better provide for plurality in education. This issue also should be borne in mind. I note that the Catholic Church here, the patron body for 92% of primary schools, has spoken about the need to divest itself of patronage for some of these schools. Many years ago - I believe it was in the early 1990s - as a Member of the then British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, I visited Lagan College, the multidenominational school that was very much associated with the leader of the Alliance Party at the time. Has the multidenominational movement grown in the meantime? Perhaps I am incorrect as my memory is hazy, but I remember visiting a school in which an effort was being made not to draw from one community only, as was usual. I live close to the border with County Fermanagh. Together with my colleagues, Deputies Joe O'Reilly and Seán Conlan, I represent two of the Ulster counties in Dáil Éireann. One issue that has been brought to our attention in the South is that of the concerns of small rural schools in County Fermanagh. I am familiar with it, as are my colleagues from County Donegal because there is concern in County Fermanagh on the border with counties Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal about the future of small rural schools in the Six Counties. Perhaps Mr. Nesbitt might clarify exactly what he means by a single education system.

I welcome the delegates to the meeting. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. McCallister previously, but Mr. Nesbitt is very welcome to Dublin. I also live close to the Border and seek interaction between the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Dáil, as well as in any other forum, regardless of whether it is on a North-South basis, on practical means or mechanisms to ensure improvements in the lives of those who live in areas in which there are no shared services. I am particularly interested in the concept of shared services in the provision of health care, ambulance services and emergency care. People living in County Monaghan have availed of shared ear, nose and throat, ENT, services in Daisy Hill Hospital for a long time. It could help people living along the Border, particularly in the area I represent, were there practical interaction on health care services and better co-ordination between the Roads Service in Northern Ireland and the county councils south of the Border when developing road networks that were not developed because of the Troubles. That would improve everyone's life.

As for the Troubles, I live in a mixed area and there certainly is a different mindset north of the Border in how people perceive matters than among Protestants and Catholics on this side of the Border because we have had a different experience in the past 40 years. The VEC schools have offered a great way to get people to mix at second level and develop friendships that have broken down barriers during the years. Mr. Nesbitt mentioned sport. I note that a man from County Monaghan, Tommy Bowe, has played for Ulster and Ireland. A lot of kids from County Monaghan might attend the Royal School, Armagh, to play rugby, regardless of their background or religion. I refer to sport in the context of what was said at previous meetings of the committee at which practical ways by we which we could work together to integrate communities were discussed. However, health care is the key issue. People living in County Monaghan might attend a doctor in Keady. While they may wish to access Craigavon Area Hospital, the problem is that if one is sick or has a heart attack, the ambulance will not travel any further than the Border. It will be extremely important to develop an emergency ambulance service that operates on both sides of the Border in order people will have a choice in respect of which hospital they want to go to.

I thank Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister for their attendance. This is truly historic and I thank them for their leadership in trying to pave a way forward in the challenges we face. The country effectively was being run by assistant accountants who, when the Government of the day asked what was two plus two, would respond by asking what would it like the answer to be. On the other side of the Border, one was subsidised by taxpayers on the mainland. We face huge economic challenges in both countries. When Deputy Enda Kenny assumed leadership of Fine Gael in 2002, I was a Member of the Seanad and we encouraged him to lead a delegation to Stormont. We were met by the leaders of most of the parties and while it was interesting, we knew at the time that Fine Gael was not very relevant because it was not in government. However, it is now in government and highly relevant. When one is relevant, one has serious and tough decisions to make. When one considers the various issues involved such as sport, business, politics and health, we must work together to achieve the best results. We must also show leadership, which is what we will do.

I pay tribute to Mr. McCallister. I have attended British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly meetings with him and he certainly can fight his own corner. However, he showed huge respect and friendliness and breaks down barriers-----

When he is not delivering babies.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

Only in an emergency.

----- simply by being friendly.

I represent the constituency of Roscommon-South Leitrim which extends as far as Northern Ireland. Deputy Joe McHugh rightly made a point on the Northern Ireland team in 1982. I remember being best man at my brother's wedding in that year and everyone was cheering on Northern Ireland. It did not come down to politics and we were obliged to postpone the meal for two hours until everyone had seen the match, which was won. It is now 24 years since the Republic of Ireland beat England. We remain undefeated to England in the European Championships and are going to Poland to enjoy ourselves. However, the delegates may rest assured that in the current climate football, sport, politics and health must cross borders. It is never what the fight is about. Mr. Nesbitt is correct to note the presence of many vested interests. They do not exist to ensure the provision of health or education services but sometimes to protect people's jobs or those who simply do not want change. As politicians and when in government, we must encourage and lead change. It must be acknowledged that the delegates' attendance at this meeting is historic. I thank them for their attendance.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I welcome Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister, not just as guests but as fellow MLAs, at least for the time being.

I have three points to make, followed by a serious question. I remind Deputy Joe McHugh that County Donegal still said "No" to austerity.

Fanad said "Yes".

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

Did Mr. Nesbitt actually win that 400 m dash in the Irish jersey? Moreover, while Sinn Féin has never stated grammar schools were evil, they are unfair and facilitate inequality.

My more substantive question concerns Mr. Nesbitt's comment that dealing with the past could be described at times as the Achilles' heel of the peace process. I put that point to him in a different way, that not dealing with the past will really block the development of the peace process. He has also stated it is easy for us to deal with the shallow end, that is, gestures such as shaking hands, and that we must get into the deep end. Some 14 years on we really must be in at the deep end. In this context, the challenge of dealing with the past faces us. It is not simply everything that happened during the Troubles but everything that has happened in the past. Very often, when I speak to Mr. Nesbitt's colleagues, they give me the impression that up to 1968 the North was a grand wee place and that everything about it was okay. It was a place in which there was no inequality and no discrimination, that it only started with the civil rights movement. That era must be examined, particularly in respect of the Ulster Unionist Party which was the dominant party between 1922 and 1968. One must ask how we ended up in the position where a civil rights movement was needed and why that movement was so brutally crushed. We must deal with this issue, as well as with the huge question of collusion and particularly the British Government's role therein. Therefore, we have to deal with all of that. We will not sort it all out here today but it must be dealt with in some format. We believe that an open, international forum is the best way to do it. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on all of that.

I will now call on Deputy Dowds who is the last questioner.

I welcome Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister. I have already met Mr. McCallister at a health committee meeting, so it is not his first time to appear before an Oireachtas committee. I sometimes hear concerns about the current situation in Northern Ireland. There is a working Government or Administration there, which is a welcome move. It is great that parties are interacting with each other in a way that would not have been possible in the past. Credit is due to people on all sides in that regard. However, is there a situation in some cases where there is an institutionalisation of sectarianism, which is agreed primarily between the two dominant parties in the Administration? Is that an unfair understanding of the situation?

Before I bring Mr. Nesbitt back in, I would reiterate that it is an important step for us that both he and Mr. McCallister have come to address the committee. It is important for us to hear the Unionist viewpoint. I acknowledge the role of the Ulster Unionist Party in the peace process. There is a high regard for that party's work in that respect, and in particular the work of Mr. David Trimble at the time the Good Friday Agreement was reached. The witnesses have raised interesting issues with us today that the committee will examine. They also have resonances for us generally, including the issue of education. We also have issues in trying to bring about integration in the education system. It is very interesting to hear what the witnesses have to say. I now call on Mr. Nesbitt to conclude and answer the questions he has been asked.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

I will do it as briefly as I can. I will deal with the past and education, while Mr. McCallister will deal with Deputy Dowds's point.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

I will make a couple of observations. As regards education, we do focus a lot on the 11 plus when we should be talking about the 11 minus. We talk about the problems, including social factors, that can affect education outcomes, but we should also be focused on equality of opportunities for all. We should be intervening much earlier concerning the sex agenda, and supporting parents even before a child is born. That is when we need to intervene to work with families. That can have an impact on a range of things, including health and education inequalities and mental health factors. The effect on people who end up in the criminal justice system is enormous, so that is where we should be focusing.

As regards ambulances and fire services stopping at the Border, the Ulster Unionist Party takes a fairly practical view of that. If a house is on fire or a person is lying injured at the side of the road, they probably would not be that offended if the Northern Ireland fire and rescue service rolled into the driveway, and vice versa. There are health areas where we can co-operate, including heart surgery for very young children. We simply do not have the numbers to keep a specialty service in Belfast, so we would have to access them in Dublin or Birmingham. From a practical viewpoint, it is much easier for families to drive to Dublin.

There are a range of services where co-operation makes sense if it is practical to do so. As we have two different health care systems, I do not have a problem with anybody being treated in Daisy Hill, Altnagelvin or elsewhere. The money then follows the patient, which is all we need to do. Where it is practical and makes sense, we will be happy to co-operate. Protocols would have to be worked out along the Border region, particularly concerning ambulance services and the nearest or most appropriate hospitals. It should be borne in mind that Craigavon is a major acute centre, so it is probably one of the best places to go to. That makes sense and the same applies to the fire and rescue service.

As regards Deputy Dowds's point, there is a feeling, which I would certainly advocate, that we need to move away from the politics of carve up; we need to start thinking about what works. We still have too much of that institutionalised sectarianism, saying: "There's a bit for you, and there's a bit for us." I do not think that is healthy in politics, which is why I have consistently made the argument about how one can normalise politics and how one starts moving towards government and opposition. This is not about excluding people. The Ulster Unionist Party crossed the line on power-sharing back in 1972, so it is not about moving away from that. One can move towards weighted majority voting. Much like what was done here or what happened after the last Westminster election, a programme for government is agreed and ministers are appointed. In that way, the government is working with a purpose. The Assembly took about nine months to agree a programme for Government. The old phrase says: "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." It felt as if our Government had no direction or purpose, so we need to get that. Having an Opposition at some point in the future would create two things, namely, a strong challenge function against the Government; and an alternative for people to vote for. At the moment, one has no way of changing the Government of Northern Ireland.

A little over a year ago, there was quite a dramatic change in government in the Republic when the people were given a choice, but one cannot do that in Northern Ireland, although one might get rid of any one of us who is an MLA. I assume that when Mr. Pat Doherty was talking, he did not mean we were going to move on soon. I hope not.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

Do not assume.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

I never assume anything. I think that is fundamentally wrong. I accept that the type of government we have was great to get us from where we were in 1998 to where we are now, but I think one would want to see that evolve. It is healthier concerning how one moves away from matters like designation. Why do we need to be Unionist, Nationalist or others? Why must there always be a badge? Why can we not move from the politics of identity to the politics of ideas? That is something I would like to see us doing.

I do not wish to interrupt, but I know Mr. McCallister has to attend the Seanad sitting.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

I will take about 40 seconds. Deputy Dowds mentioned the Unionist Governments from 1921 to 1968. When I spoke at the Sinn Féin conference last year in Newry, which was chaired by Mr. Conor Murphy, I quoted Edward Carson. I got a fair old hit in the press from Willie Fraser for doing it, but I acknowledged that there had been failings and that we fell short of what Carson had said. I quoted from his speech.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

Southern Unionists.

Mr. John McCallister, MLA

Yes. He would like to have kept us all in the union. I did acknowledge that but, as regards Mr. Nesbitt's point, we certainly feel that some of that has not come back from Sinn Féin.

Mr. Mike Nesbitt, MLA

On the education points raised earlier, what I mean by a single system is the state funding a single system. I accept that while there is not a rich tradition of people in Northern Ireland paying a lot of money for their children's education, there could be independent or faith-based schools. In Belfast, there probably is scope for one, and there might be one other within the country. I mean a singly-funded system under the state.

On the question of how we get there, it could take 15 to 25 years. The next step is sharing facilities. The very exciting example of where this may happen is Lisanelly in Omagh where all the schools are on the one campus. What we should not do is tell communities they must do it now. Some will be ready to go now; some may take five to ten years. We should not beat up the ones which need a little bit longer. We should assist them and bring them along. The other key factor to getting there will be the school estate. If one is looking at an area where two schools need to be rebuilt, then it is easier to go for a single school. If there have been recent rebuilds for everybody, then it will take a little longer.

On Mr. Pat Doherty's point about dealing with the past, I am very pleased he brought up 1968 and 1969 and that everything before that was rosy in the garden. The key initial question in our paper that we will publish on Monday is what we mean by dealing with the past. We need to have a shared understanding. It is interesting and informative that Mr. Doherty says it is not to start at the end of the 1960s. Until we have an agreed sense of what we mean by dealing with the past and for whom, we cannot get into the mechanisms of it. I do not have an opinion on whether we should have an independent international adjudicator because that is a mechanism for a process before we have agreed what the process is designed to achieve.

I thank the Chair and the committee for their courtesy. We did feel it important to attend today not just symbolically but because of the practical co-operation going forward that should exist between Leinster House and Stormont. We did talk about the Northern Ireland football team. I was employed by Bank of Ireland which was holding a seminar in the Europa Hotel in Belfast the night Ireland beat Romania in a penalty shoot-out in a World Cup. The bank had to cut the seminar's programme by an hour and a half to allow us watch the match and then another half an hour for extra time. When it went to penalties, the bank said, "Sod the programme". Productivity went up anyway. To answer Mr. Doherty's question, in the athletics I came third, same as the Ulster Unionist Party in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I aspire to higher.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Nesbitt and Mr. McCallister for attending the committee and their presentation.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.35 p.m. and adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 21 June 2012.
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