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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 5 Jul 2012

PEACE III and INTERREG IVA Programmes: Discussion with SEUPB

I welcome Mr. Pat Colgan, the chief executive officer, and Ms Gina McIntyre, director of corporate services, with SEUPB. We will have a discussion on the delivery of the PEACE III and INTERREG IVA which are managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.

The SEUPB is one of the six cross-Border bodies set up under the Good Friday Agreement. Its main role is to manage cross-Border European Union Structural Funds programmes in Northern Ireland and the Border region of Ireland. The current programmes are known as the PEACE III and INTERREG IVA and the SEUPB is in the process of closure of the PEACE II and INTERREG IIIA programmes. We look forward to exploring with our guests how the current funding is being applied to positive effect and how it can be sustained in the future. Issues around PEACE III were raised at the highest level yesterday, both in Stormont and in Dublin. Hopefully, there is positive news as a result of the pressure applied yesterday regarding the urgency of the matter.

Before we commence, I advise witnesses they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence connected with the subject matter of this meeting is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Colgan, who is most welcome, to make his presentation.

Mr. Pat Colgan

I thank the Chairman. It is a pleasure to be here. It was also a great pleasure to welcome the committee members to Belfast last October when they came to meet us and, more importantly, to visit some of the projects on the ground. I believe they probably got a better sense from that visit of what is actually happening under the PEACE programme than they would have from ten presentations from somebody like myself. I really appreciate that they made the effort to do that. I am very glad to be back here to give an account of our work.

I reiterate that SEUPB is responsible for the INTERREG and the PEACE programmes, which are funded by the European Regional Development Fund. The ratio of funding within the programmes is 75% to 25%. Some 75% comes from the ERDF while 25% of it comes from the member states, namely, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and British Government. That is basically how the programmes are funded.

SEUPB has three key regulatory functions. As managing authority, we are responsible for ensuring that the programmes are implemented in accordance with the provisions contained in the operational programme, which was agreed for both programmes, and in accordance with the EU regulations that govern the implementation of these programmes. That is fundamentally the responsibility of the managing authority. We have a directorate within our organisation which does just that.

We also have a directorate called the joint technical secretariat, JTS, which is an arrangement that is quite common to programmes such as these throughout Europe. That part of our organisation is responsible for the physical implementation of the programmes - in other words, it is responsible for ensuring there is a sufficient supply of applications to the programmes, assessing those applications, putting them up for approval by steering committees, following on thereafter, monitoring whether they are doing what they said they would do and checking that expenditure is in line with commitments.

The third function within our organisation, for which Ms Gina McIntyre is responsible along with other duties, is that of the certifying authority. We are responsible for certifying to the European Commission that the expenditure on the ground is in accordance with regulations and that it is, therefore, eligible for reclaiming back from the Commission. We reclaim the expenditure from the Commission in arrears once it has actually happened. Those are the basic issues around the way in which we operate as an organisation.

In regard to the programmes, there are two key dimensions which are worth mentioning. Each programme has its own monitoring committee, each of which has approximately 40 members. The monitoring committees are nominated by the relevant Minister, namely, the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The membership of the committees consist of representatives of Government Departments, relevant statutory agencies, the social partners, including employers and trade unions, community and voluntary sector organisations and broad representation in terms of civic society. That is the ultimate oversight body for both programmes. It is chaired by myself and we report to the monitoring committee in regard to the work on the programmes.

The monitoring committee has a subset consisting of steering committees, which are the parts of the programme responsible for decisions with regard to funding. Representation on those steering committees usually comprises representatives of relevant Government Departments, social partners, the community and voluntary sector, etc. The decision-making in terms of allocation of funding is taken in the first instance there.

There is another dimension to the way in which we manage programmes which is unique to Northern Ireland and the Border counties in terms of ERDF-funded cross-Border co-operation programmes - that is, the role of the accountable Departments. SEUPB works with 16 different accountable Departments in Northern Ireland and Ireland. They provide us with the matching funding - the 25% element I referred to earlier - but, importantly, they provide us with the cash flow. We draw down cash from them which enables us to pay projects. They also have an important role in terms of agreement to funding of individual projects. That happens once the steering committee has agreed that a project should be funded. It then needs to go through the approval process in the accountable Department. That is a unique feature of our programmes relative to other European cross-border co-operation programmes. It means that the approval process takes longer than it might otherwise but it is a feature to bear in mind.

In regard to the implementation of the current programmes - INTERREG IV and PEACE III - we tabled a progress report for the committee, so it will have the big figures. The value of INTERREG IV was €256 million. To date we have approved €214.2 million for 72 projects, which amounts to approximately 84% of the total value of the programme. So far we have spent €71 million. All of the N+2 targets have been achieved to date. We have exceeded those targets in each of the years. Our cumulative target for 2012 is just over €103 million. We will make that target; there will be no difficulty. It is not that it will not be challenging, but we will make the target. We constantly review the operations of the programme to try to ensure greater efficiencies and effectiveness and we are always open to suggestions in that regard.

I mention some of the projects we have funded. There are four pillars to the INTERREG programme. First, there is the enterprise pillar, which includes the KITE project - knowledge, innovation and technical engineering - and the trade links project, which promotes specific support mechanisms for cross-Border trading SMEs. Under tourism, which is the second pillar of the programme, we have the project called Sail West. I was in Derry-Londonderry yesterday at the launch of part of the Sail West project, the Malin Waters project, which involves the development of a network of coastal facilities along the coast of Northern Ireland, Sligo, and Donegal and the west coast of Scotland. It is quite a remarkable project involving about €7 million. On a broader note, the city of Derry-Londonderry is remarkably positive and active as a result of much of the work the PEACE programmes and the INTERREG programmes are doing there.

Under collaboration, which is the third pillar of the INTERREG programme, I mention the CAWT project, which is significant in terms of health co-operation North and South of the Border. It has been noted as being of particularly excellent practice in a European context. There is huge potential as we move forward to do even more there. The fourth pillar of the INTERREG programme is the infrastructure pillar. Members will be familiar with the Kelvin project, the large telecommunications infrastructure project, but I mention another one, ISLES. The Irish-Scottish Links on Energy Study, which was launched during the year, looked at the feasibility of developing an underwater network for the distribution of electricity, particularly soft energy, between Britain and Ireland. Tellus is a fascinating project doing geological and geographical surveys of the whole region in terms of the geological composition of the area and the overall morphological features of the region, to be used for digital planning, digital maps and overall planning for the region. These are some of the INTERREG projects we are funding.

In regard to PEACE, the total value of the programme is just under €333 million. To date we have approved €341 million for 193 projects. It is over-committed by approximately €8 million, which is not unusual in managing projects like these. When coming to the end of the life cycle of a project, one generally over-commits by a bit to ensure that any slippage is picked up by that level of over-commitment. That is something we manage as programme managers. It has spent just under €129 million and we have achieved all of our N+2 targets for all of the years. We are very confident that we will achieve them for the years ahead as well. Last year's N+2 target was exceeded by €30 million. This year we are just shy of €8 million in our target for the current year, and that will be easily achieved. We will carry forward a surplus into next year. The Peace programme is working very well in terms of levels of commitment and expenditure.

Let me point to some of the very excellent projects that are being funded under the PEACE lll programme. Again we have four pillars to the programme. The first is building positive relationships at a local level and is one of the most exciting and significant parts of the programme in terms of what it is able to do and what has been done with local authorities in Northern Ireland and in the Border counties. In Northern Ireland, the 26 local authorities have formed themselves into seven clusters which co-operate and work with each other across their jurisdictional boundaries, nominating one lead partner from among them, and in addition to that there is Belfast City Council, so we deal with eight entities. We have allocated €100 million to the work they do. They prepare and submit to us multi-annual action plans for the building of positive relationships at a local level, including the managing of small grants within their communities, and to date we have spent €50 million in the first tranche and we are rolling out the second tranche, which will be a similar amount, which will bring the expenditure on local authorities to €100 million on that part of the programme. It is very exciting to see the way the local authorities have taken this on board. It empowers them to get on with doing their work. One can provide them with an envelope over a multi-annual period and they have a strategic plan that is focused on clearly identifiable outcomes.

Another part of that pillar of the programme are regional projects, to which we allocate €40 million. Under that category we work with ex-prisoner groups. We do work on the training for women network and very specific interventions in those kinds of areas. That again is part of the programme that provides us with an opportunity to take a look at the building positive relationships dimension across the whole of the region.

The second pillar is acknowledging and dealing with the past, which is the most sensitive and difficult area in which we work. That is the area of working with victims and survivors of the conflict. It is managed for us by Pobal and CRC, a consortium as an implementing body in the programme. About €50 million in total was allocated to that part of the programme and is being spent as we speak.

The third pillar of the programme, creating shared spaces, is one of the most noticeable in terms of the iconic impact of the programme. A sum of €82 million was allocated to that part of the programme. We could have spent about four or five times that amount based on the applications we received. The most noticeable projects under that heading are the peace bridge in Londonderry. I was in Londonderry yesterday and it is extraordinary to see how much the city has been transformed by the presence of that piece of infrastructure. Other projects are the Skainos project at the interface at the bottom of the Newtownards Road in Belfast, which is the creation of a local community village and which is multi-use. There is a wide range of them, all of them very significant.

The fourth and final pillar is building capacity for a shared future, and in this we have a range of projects which are intended to provide capacity to shared experiences of the programmes on a broader basis to the rest of Europe and beyond. The most notable project approved recently was the Maze-Long Kesh peace and conflict resolution centre, with and of which many will be familiar and aware.

That is where we are to date. The challenges facing us are the continuing challenge of N+2, which is not easy but is an important challenge. We are confident we will meet our commitments but we must watch it very carefully. We need to finalise the commitment on the INTERREG programme and we will need the co-operation of accountable Departments in making that happen as efficiently as possible.

The biggest challenge facing us now is looking beyond 2013 into the 2014 to 2020 funding period. We have begun, at the request of the two member states, to prepare for the new programme, which would be a potential INTERREG V programme and a potential PEACE IV programme. We have begun that process and we are happy to engage with the committee and discuss where we are in relation to it.

I draw attention to the importance of these two programmes in the region. In terms of its economic impact, one is talking of expenditure between €80 million and €100 million in the region at a time of economic austerity and difficulties. That is a very significant contribution in terms of employment, economic activity and the potential multiplier effect these programmes can have. I emphasise the scope and reach of these programme within the region. We have evidence and data that 832,000 individuals out of a population of 2.1 million people in Northern Ireland and the Border counties were involved in PEACE ll programme related activities. That is significant. Some 162,000 people were involved in cross-Border activities and 15,000 projects were funded. The reach of these programmes into every single part of Northern Ireland and the Border counties is significant. There are still very significant challenges to be dealt with in the peace process in Northern Ireland, and if one considers the peace programmes as being the people's peace process in terms of the activities they generate, those challenges deal with deep-seated issues that still remain in our communities as well as with building relationships with these communities and bringing people out of some very dark places.

I thank members for their attention and I am happy to take questions.

I thank Mr. Colgan for his presentation. Obviously his enthusiasm for this major job of work is still alive and well. Yesterday, I was speaking to a few people from Derry and they felt the buzz and excitement to which Mr. Colgan referred, which contributes to society, not least the special EU programme body, the SEUPB. The peace bridge is a great source of joy and people are still walking on it and enjoying it.

Before I call on the first group of contributors, I wish to acknowledge the presence of representatives from the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Foreign Affairs and Trade and Public Expenditure and Reform. This reaffirms the Government's commitment and the necessity that all Departments work with the SEUPB. I welcome the officials and commend them on their ongoing work. I have no doubt that solutions will be found to the challenges, as the Government is committed to the SEUPB programme, in particular PEACE lll.

I will call four speakers, starting with Mr. Pat Doherty, MP and Deputy Seán Conlan to follow.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, MLA

I welcome the delegates from the SEUPB and thank them for their submission. I have two questions. We have very strong indications that the British Government is committed to PEACE lV and we know the Irish Government is very committed to it. Has the British Government crossed the line and formally committed to it? I ask that because I know there may be some tensions in Westminster about how it relates to Europe. I know that at the early stages of the endeavours of the special European Union programme body that there was a perception of a very low take-up from the Unionist and loyalist community and that they were proactive in dealing with it. Has the take-up from the Unionist community levelled out? I would like a report on both of these issues.

I want to mine the figures. Mr. Colgan said the programme has a total value of €332 million, of which €128.8 million has been spent so far, leaving an outstanding amount of €204 million. He mentioned also that he was looking for co-operation from the different Department to achieve targets. What is the level of co-operation from Departments in the Republic? Is part of the reason for some of the moneys not being spent due to the need for approval from Departments? Is part of the reason some of the moneys are not spent to date connected with the need for approval from Departments? Could someone expand on the point please or explain the process?

I thank the Chairman. I was attending the SDLP economic conference last week for the committee. I formally congratulate the Chairman on his election and wish him well in the role.

I welcome the two speakers. I congratulate them on reaching spending targets and on their efficiency. It is a huge sum of money and it is a great achievement to reach targets and to have it spent properly. I salute that. I acknowledge the accessibility of those involved in the programme, which is important for the democratic process and those who have been democratically elected. The Castle Saunderson project in my county, which is an all-Ireland scouting facility, is a vital piece of infrastructure. I was personally involved to some degree in that major development and in the Kelvin project.

I urge the witnesses to ensure that all moneys spent by them are proofed to the extent that cross-Border co-operation is built in as a prerequisite. That is necessary to ensure the breaking down of barriers and the building of a truly cross-Border society where activities can take place. Nobody should be a beneficiary of PEACE funding at any level without fulfilling that criteria. I accept the INTERREG programme has a different brief, namely, to build prosperity. That, in itself, is critical. Tangible evidence of a cross-Border dimension must be required in order to qualify for PEACE funding. It is critical that definite links are required to the other side of the Border. Funding for the county PEACE plans is important. Would the witnesses please elaborate on the elements involved in those plans?

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP, MLA

I will be brief. I congratulate the Chairman on his elevation. Like Deputy O'Reilly I was elsewhere last week and I was not able to be present.

I congratulate Mr. Colgan and Ms McIntyre on what they have achieved to date, which is visible right across the North. I commend them on their work and urge them to keep going. A brief reference was made in the presentation to the challenges they face. Could they expand on them and give us some indication of what they want from public representatives such as us, both North and South? The one complaint I have is that the witnesses are not as demanding of us as they should be. If they were a little more demanding we would get a better dynamic going and perhaps get them more support than they are getting at present.

Mr. Pat Colgan

I thank everyone for their comments, especially for the nice things that were said about us. It is not often that we get to hear too many compliments.

I will take the questions in order. Mr. Pat Doherty inquired about PEACE IV and evidence of commitment from the British Government. The best evidence of commitment is that we have been written to by the two member states to ask us to begin the process of preparing the new programme. That, in itself, is a commitment. That means we are committing resources, time and energy to preparing for PEACE IV. I have made presentations to the European Parliament regional committee on the matter. I have met Commissioner Hahn and his cabinet on it also. We constantly and regularly update the Commission on what is going on.

In terms of the choreography of the final elements of putting things in place, there will be a need for the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister to request a PEACE IV programme at European Council level. There have been detailed discussions on the timing and mechanisms associated with that and I am confident it will happen at the right time. It is a question of timing. We must remember that we still do not have any regulations in place. There is still a draft up for discussion. We still do not have a budget in place. It is likely to go into the end of the Cypriot Presidency budget negotiations and it will be taken up by the Irish Presidency next year. At that stage when we get a clearer picture of the budget we will begin to copperfasten issues such as how much money will be committed to any of the programmes, PEACE and-or INTERREG. Issues arise around the final elements of the PEACE programme that must be taken into account. I have no doubt about the commitment of the British Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to PEACE IV.

Reference was made to take-up within loyalist communities. We have made enormous progress in that regard. We have proactively reached out to members of Protestant loyalist communities right across Northern Ireland and in the Border region. There are important pockets along the Border counties and many important initiatives have been funded under the PEACE programmes which are testament to that.

On whether it is a done deal, I do not think so. There are still pockets, in particular in some of the more deprived areas of Northern Ireland, where there are issues of access, inclusiveness, involvement and engagement with civic society generally and with our programmes in particular. Difficult issues still exist and they are the sort of things I was referring to when I said that PEACE IV still has quite an agenda ahead. Huge progress has been made and we are having conversations we would never have had before. We are talking with people. We have been building up relationships with organisations, institutions and individuals in the past five to seven years that are only now beginning to come to fruition. One can see evidence of that in recent days, for example, when we had a visit from the Orange Order to speak to the Seanad. Those are things that would never have happened. We have been working behind the scenes on many such issues and funding activity in those areas as well.

Deputy Conlan inquired about PEACE III expenditure and co-operation from Departments. We require two elements of co-operation from Departments, the first is to approve projects that have been approved by the steering committee in as efficient and expeditious a manner as possible. I do not have any particular difficulties in regard to the PEACE programme but there are one or two pockets of issues. On the southern side I am not aware of any particular difficulties in that regard.

The second element of co-operation is making funding available. Normally, we have no difficulties in this area. We did run into a difficulty recently with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government where an issue arose around available expenditure under certain headings. I am happy to report to the committee that those problems have been resolved. The Chairman referred to some of the interventions that happened yesterday through the offices of the elected representatives who were involved in those interventions but also the officials in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. We are very appreciative, in particular, of the work done by our colleagues, Mr. Aidan O'Reilly, Ms Sarah O'Halloran and Mr. Gearóid O'Keeffe, to address the issue. I put my appreciation for that on record. We recognise the difficulties public expenditure faces in these times. It is probably no harm that it makes us stop and think that one cannot take the funding for granted, that there is a sacrifice involved and there are costs associated with taking money away from one place and making it available to another place. We are fully aware of that and we appreciate the co-operation.

Deputy O'Reilly spoke about the cross-Border dimension on all public expenditure on the PEACE III programme. INTERREG has the requirement that four criteria must be met. They must be jointly planned, jointly financed, jointly managed and jointly developed by the project applicants and there must be partners on both sides. According to the regulations, PEACE III is exempt from strict compliance with all of those four but we look for a commitment to cross-Border co-operation in every single project that we finance. We would not necessarily insist that cross-Border co-operation be at the same level as one may find under the INTERREG programme. However, there is a commitment to demonstrate a contribution towards peace and reconciliation and reach outside the community and across the Border. This is, therefore, an element of the programme. There is a much higher level of cross-Border co-operation in the PEACE programme than we expected. It is very active in this area and we are very pleased with it.

I was asked what is funded under the local authority PEACE plans. They fund a wide range of initiatives, some of which are aimed at local women's community groups or community crèches. The fundamental requirement of every single project is that it must build relationships between the different parts of the community. This refers not only to Protestants and Catholics but also the multiethnic dimension and the entire range of community diversity that exists in Northern Ireland and the Border counties. It is not only a question of two communities. The local authorities are involved in this type of activity and make available many small grants for small groups that wish to do certain things. There are also interesting things being done in the areas of culture, sport, leisure and what is generally described as community well-being, development and planning. European Union funding has been very useful in developing the competence of local authorities in the area of community well-being and planning.

I will answer first Dr. Alasdair McDonnell's second question on what we would like to happen. A hard look should be taken at the architecture of the current programme to examine its weaknesses and strengths. A weakness in the system is that we require decision making procedures and processes in these programmes that are not required in the more than 60 European territorial cross-border co-operation programmes in place in the rest of Europe. Addressing this would make our lives much simpler, while retaining full governance. I refer to empowering the joint technical secretariat and steering committees to do what the regulations require of them, namely, to take decisions on funding, while moving towards a 20-to-26-week window of decision making from submission to final decision for project applications. That is our target moving into the next programme period. To achieve it, we must ensure the architecture of the programmes is sufficiently flexible and empowering.

I have debated and discussed this issue with the Committee for Finance and Personnel of the Assembly, Ministers in the North-South Ministerial Council and my colleagues in the various Departments in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. We need to address a number of governance and accountability issues. These are not simple matters, however, because they relate to public expenditure, and this needs to be managed in accordance with national and European Union rules. What we need is a system that can satisfy the requirements of the national rules while taking advantage of the structures that are in place, facilitated by the presence of the European Union regulations. I look forward to a good debate on these issues with all of our colleagues and stakeholders. We need to put in place two programmes, INTERREG V and PEACE IV, in a manner that will, I hope, be more flexible and dynamic and allow us to make decisions more quickly and get funding on the ground much faster. Those are the things I seek.

Ms Gina McIntyre

In response to Deputy Conlan's question, the 40% spend that we have recorded in the PEACE programme is on target for the life cycle. There have not been any delays to date.

Mr. Conor Murphy, MP, MLA

I extend best wishes to the Chairman in his new role. As Mr. Colgan stated, in my former role as Chairman of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, I participated in substantial debates on many of these issues in the past year or more.

Reading through the list of projects, I share the ambition of reducing the turnaround time to between 20 and 26 weeks, as is the experience in other INTERREG areas and regions where EU funds are available. We identified many of the reasons for delays, including the requirement to secure approval from Departments North and South, which takes time. Some people believe the Departments should do less hands-on work and show greater flexibility, a view that has been expressed here.

I note the reference to "letters of offer accepted" beside some of the schemes. Staff in some of the ex-prisoner projects have not been paid wages for three months and are struggling to survive as a result. The projects in question feature on the list of projects for which letters of offer accepted apply. Is there a phase beyond which the Departments are no longer involved and the problem becomes a bureaucratic issue in the Special EU Programmes Body, given that letters of offer have been issued and accepted but funding has not been provided to the projects?

In general terms, Mr. Colgan referred to council groups and clusters working together in PEACE IV and INTERREG V. Council groups are coming together to submit bids for projects. There is a general view, especially at local government level, that there is a democratic deficit in respect of the implementation of funding on the ground. Previously, council groups came together to administer funding rather than simply to submit bids for various projects. While this is a debate for future funding programmes, is there a more enhanced role for local councils to act as implementing bodies rather than coming together to make joint bids for various projects?

I welcome Mr. Colgan and Ms McIntyre, who gave members a good welcome when we travelled North a few months ago. I note their comments on the visit to the Seanad of the grand secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, which was a significant occasion. Unfortunately, I was unable to read the document that was circulated as I had to leave for a division in the Seanad.

On the Narrow Water Bridge project, I welcome the decision, on appeal, to designate it a viable project. It fulfils the criteria in respect of joint planning, financing, management and development. In addition to being a sensible tourism project, it will have major positive sociopolitical consequences. Is the money in the bag for the project? What is the next step for it? The reason I raise this matter is that the Narrow Water Bridge project was accepted in principle as highly worthwhile when I raised it on a previous occasion.

I welcome Mr. Colgan and Ms McIntyre. Views about the special EU programmes are mixed among groups with which I have spoken, most of which are critical about and extremely annoyed about the time required to process applications. Mr. Colgan referred to the role of 16 accountable Departments. Some groups have indicated they had to wait for 50 weeks for funding. How can a group survive without funding for such a long period, especially when it is rolling over into a second year? What is the longest period an organisation has waited for funding? It has been suggested that delays may have lasted for years. If that is the case, it undermines much of the positive work being done by the PEACE and INTERREG programmes. I accept that public funds and bureaucracies are involved but we need to have a conversation about how we can reduce the processing times for funding applications. I have no doubt that if they were reduced, it would resolve some of the difficulties organisations have experienced in the past. I do not know how groups survive if they have to wait for funding for three to six months. Local community projects which have had a promise of departmental funding have to wait that length of time. I do not know how any group would do it. Perhaps that is the conversation we should have.

I will take one final question from Ms Michelle Gildernew.

Ms Michelle Gildernew, MP, MLA

Very briefly, this seems to be one of the achievements. I presume a further round of PEACE funding is envisaged. To what extent will we push the boundaries? I am pleased with the work done by Mr. Pat Colgan. They are only scratching the surface in terms of making both Departments of health work better together to improve the quality of health service for people in the Border regions.

I will take a supplementary question from Deputy Conlan.

Senator Jim D'Arcy has been parochial in respect of Narrow Water Bridge. Under PEACE I, funding was available to reopen the Border roads that had been closed during the Troubles but it was at a minimal level and the work was not properly completed. The road structure from Monaghan to Armagh is particularly poor. In the event of a new PEACE IV, that issue should be examined again because there is no co-ordination between the Roads Service in Northern Ireland and Monaghan County Council to get this sorted out. It has not been done and there does not appear to be any interest in getting the job finished. The roads from Monaghan to Keady and Monaghan to Clogher have not been developed and are in poor condition. In terms of developing local business, the transport network is poor in that region and, if possible, PEACE IV should examine this and resolve it.

Mr. Pat Colgan

Mr. Conor Murphy referred to the ex-prisoner projects and the fact that we have them down as "letter of offer accepted". The letter of offer has been accepted by the groups but they are with the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister for ministerial approval. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister need to sign off on them because of the delegated limits issue and the amounts of money involved. I am aware some interim funding provisions have been put in place in Northern Ireland for groups on the ground to help them get over the summer months; they fulfil an important role and function on the roads during these months. We are seeking to do something similar with groups on the Southern side in terms of taking advantage of any additional funding that might be available.

On the issue of local authority involvement, we did have a system of implementing bodies in previous programme periods. It was an extremely complex and expensive way of running programmes. Under PEACE II the average cost of implementation was around 25% of the total. Under INTERREG III, the average cost was 20% or 22% because of the implementing body. There were 56 implementing bodies in PEACE II and 25 in INTERREG III. Moving into PEACE III and INTERREG IV, we examined ways of introducing more efficiency. We introduced the principle of lead partner, whereby people bid for funding rather than being given a global grant which they administer. Under the latter system, they are duplicating applications and approval procedures that are happening everywhere else. Instead, they bid to get the money from us and then they are empowered to manage it. That is the way it works in terms of INTERREG and particularly the cross-Border groupings, which are local-authority-based groupings. It was our intention that it would work in a similar way to the PEACE programme, where there is an approved multi-annual envelope of finance within a clearly identified programme of activity. Groups are empowered to get on with it, manage it and do what they wish at a local level. We did not manage to get that approved for the INTERREG programme because the accountable Departments were not comfortable with it. They wanted each individual element to be approved. We are not that far away from doing what has been proposed while at the same time keeping costs down. The costs of programme implementation this time around are between 4% and 5%, as opposed to 20% and 25%. That is a key consideration going into a new programme preparation.

Perhaps I can take up Deputy Crowe's related point about the amount of time it takes to get projects approved. The 50-week period is not an exaggeration. There are some projects that have been on the table for three years. It has to do with the architecture of decision making that we have within the programme. There is nothing we can do about the current programme period. Mr. Conor Murphy will be well used to hearing me talk about that in the Assembly Finance and Personnel Committee. There is nothing we can do about the programme period we are going through. It is fully committed. We need to look forward. We need to learn the lessons from the structures we put in place for PEACE IV and INTERREG V.

In programmes throughout Europe there is a managing authority, a joint technical secretariat and a system of monitoring committees and steering committees which make provision for the engagement and involvement of accountable Departments, but the decisions are taken within those structures. There is no additional layer of decision making outside of those, and the accountable Departments can cover their governance needs through participation in monitoring committees and steering committees. It means there is a demand on them to be much more engaged in terms of what happens at these meetings. Quite challenging meetings take place in steering committees in many of these programmes around Europe, and so it should be, but it is there that the challenge takes place. The steering committee then takes its decision and goes ahead with the issuing of a letter of offer and the implementation of these projects. That is what I meant when I said we should look for a 20-to-26-week approval period. That is the average for INTERREG programmes throughout Europe, and I believe that is what we should look for.

Senator D'Arcy specifically mentioned Narrow Water Bridge. Narrow Water Bridge is in with a group of other projects that are going through phase two approval. The total value of the projects on the table is approximately €70 million. We have just over €30 million available to allocate. Not everybody will be happy at the end of that process. It will be a robust, independent process and the best projects will get funded. We have always considered Narrow Water Bridge an excellent project, and we were happy to proceed with it. In terms of issues relating to Narrow Water Bridge, we need to ensure that, first, the accountable Departments on both sides of the Border give their full commitment to it, which includes the take-up afterwards, and, second, that it is technically feasible to do it within the lifetime of this programme period because if we start spending money and then run into problems, we will lose quite a good deal of money to the programme. We will not be able to claim it back. Those are the assessments of risk that the steering committee must take into account when examining this project in its second phase, but it is preparing a full business case. It is addressing all of these technical issues and then being given the opportunity to make its case.

I apologise on behalf of the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Cummins, who is engaged in a debate on a Bill in the Seanad. He is very sorry he cannot attend.

Mr. Pat Colgan

Ms Michelle Gildernew raised the issue of Co-operation and Working Together, CAWT, which incidentally is funded by INTERREG and not PEACE. We agree there is a lot more potential in the health sector. The INTERREG programme in other European countries has significant health co-operation initiatives, including the construction of hospitals, joint services and so on. Technically, there are opportunities in that regard. We are optimistic that we will be building on the success of CAWT going into future programmes.

To respond to Deputy Conlan's supplementary question on Border roads, it has become more difficult to put European money into Border roads. In the INTERREG programme we have a small provision for roads but the eligibility of certain items of expenditure within EU programmes changes from one programme period to another. It will not be eligible under PEACE because we do not finance that kind of infrastructure but under INTERREG there are opportunities. We have had an expenditure of €10 million on Border roads during the current programme. I know it is not enough, but we will be examining it going into the new programme period.

When the committee went to visit Mr. Colgan's office and see the projects, it was my experience - other than in individual cases in which people had been assigned to special projects - that the scale of the projects was significant. I would like to congratulate witnesses and the special EU programmes body for being a key driver of the peace process. I wish them continued success. It should be possible to be more streamlined to get to the optimum 26 weeks. If there is anything this committee can do, it would be a substantial help.

Thank you very much for coming in today and we appreciate that you did so at such short notice. Sometimes we focus on the negative news, but I would like to congratulate all the officials from the relevant Departments in bringing a solution to this important matter that affects people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I wish you well in your endeavours.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.05 p.m. and adjourned at 1.05 p.m. sine die.
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