Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 2013

Cross Border Co-operation in Education: Discussion

Chairman

We will commence the public session. Apologies have been received from Deputy Joe O’Reilly, Mark Durkan and Alasdair McDonnell. I remind members, guests and those in the public gallery please to ensure that their mobile phones, iPhones, Blackberries, etc., are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting. If people want to leave them in silent mode they can leave them on the floor, where allegedly they will not interfere with the sound system. I ask, however, that they respect this instruction and ensure that they are switched off completely.

Today we will continue our consideration of cross-Border co-operation in education. I am delighted that Dr. Stephen Farry, Minister for Employment and Learning in the Northern Ireland Executive is here with us today. We hope to have a good engagement and conversation with him. This subject is not new to the committee. We have highlighted education as an area worthy of consideration and we would like to explore where there are synergies and integrated strategies in education with mutual benefits. This is a pragmatic committee which prefers practical and common-sense solutions.

On behalf of the committee I welcome Dr. Stephen Farry. We are also joined by Mr. Chris Andrews and Ms Judith Shaw from the education division of the Northern Ireland Department for Employment and Learning. Our witnesses are all very welcome.

The committee has held a series of meetings to consider cross-Border co-operation in education. We have already met with our Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, the presidents of the institutes of technology in the Border region - Sligo, Letterkenny and Dundalk - and with St. Angela’s and the University of Ulster teacher training colleges. On our regular visits to Northern Ireland we have noted how educational attainment impacts on the progress of many communities, as we see in our constituencies here in the South. We look forward to Dr. Farry’s contribution and to exploring with him the potential for synergies to enhance co-operation in this very important area.

Before Dr. Farry makes his presentation it is important to point out that we have one common political ground, North and South, which is the challenge of youth unemployment. We need a twenty-first century third level system to adapt to the changing needs, be it in industry or employment trends. That is an area in which researchers in all our universities North and South can work together. We look forward to hearing Dr. Farry’s contribution and no doubt committee members will make their own observations and suggestions.

Dr. Stephen Farry

I thank the Chairman for his kind welcome and the invitation to come here this afternoon to address the committee. I hope that my presentation is illuminating. I appreciate that the committee members are very tired so I hope that I do not send them back to sleep. We welcome the opportunity to raise these issues and to explore them.

I will make a few general opening comments and set out some of the issues that are on the landscape, and hope that we have a good exchange through questions and answers and further exploration of some of these issues. The central message I am keen to get across today is that while there is a degree of co-operation and collaboration in further and higher education on the island of Ireland it is significantly below its potential. There is significant capacity for growth in terms of student flows in both directions and in the development of research. I had planned to speak primarily about higher and further education but towards the end, given the Chairman’s remarks, I will make a few brief comments on youth unemployment which is such a particularly acute issue for us all.

Last year in Northern Ireland we published our first ever higher education strategy, entitled Graduating to Success. One of the projects in that strategy is to facilitate greater cross-Border collaboration and student mobility. I would like to think that by the end of 2013 we will have identified targets in conjunction with our higher education institutions for greater expansion of North-South co-operation and we should be looking to meet many of those targets by the end of this decade. I am also pleased to say that Tom Boland from the Higher Education Authority in the South is part of that project team so there is already on-going engagement with Government officials here in that regard.

The context in which we work is partially set by the report published by IBEC and CBI in 2011, A Study of Obstacles to Cross-Border Undergraduate Education. This was discussed in an Assembly debate in October 2012 and at that stage the Assembly agreed to take forward the recommendations in that report. There are probably four out of the nine recommendations that are particularly relevant to our discussions, one relates to the quality of information available to students and we are addressing that under the higher education strategy. Another relates to student support for students domiciled in Northern Ireland who may be studying in the Republic of Ireland. From 2013-14 on there will be a new form of student support which hopefully will address some of the anomalies highlighted in that report and better facilitate students from Northern Ireland studying in the Republic of Ireland.

Another issue, which is perhaps the most thorny in the short term, relates to an issue around the recognition of A level qualifications and equivalency for university entry into institutions in the Republic of Ireland. My colleague, John O’Dowd, has commissioned a report in conjunction with the Irish Universities Association and the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment in Northern Ireland.

It is expected to be made available to both governments and the Irish university presidents during the coming months. The final relevant recommendation for our own Department relates to research into higher education student flows and I will return to that topic in a few moments.

Other initiatives should be noted. We support Universities Ireland, which has been established by nine universities across the island. It receives funding of £25,000 from both jurisdictions for the Centre for Cross-Border Studies, which provides secretariat support. The undergraduate awards have been in place since 2008. Both governments co-administer the McManus all-Ireland scholarship scheme which is funded by J. P. McManus. This scheme supports our own Department's widening access strategy.

The US-Ireland research and development partnership includes a number of eligible areas such as nanotechnology, sensor technology, energy and sustainability, telecommunications and health. To date, 12 projects have been supported. It is worth noting that President Obama addressed an audience in Belfast on 17 June 2013 and he chose to highlight that partnership in particular and more broadly he indicated the opportunities that exist for research and collaboration. I am very conscious that we are living in a more globalised age and this includes in the area of high-level research. There is a need to upscale of the size of research projects and as a consequence, greater collaboration is needed. Northern Ireland has high-achieving targets set under the Barroso task force and there is a need to improve the drawing down of competitive European funds. I refer to framework seven which deals with research and development and which in due course will become Horizon 2020. My Department and the Department for Enterprise, Trade and Investment have established a £1.8 million EU support fund which provides a network of Northern Ireland contact points for research applications. These will link closely with the national contact points in the Republic of Ireland through an all-island EU steering group. We look with a degree of admiration to the level of draw-down of those competitive funds within the Republic of Ireland and this serves as an example for us.

On the issue of further education, the flow of students is very much one-way traffic which is from the South to the North. This situation is particularly acute in the north west of the island. The North-West Regional College has over 3,000 students from the South. To a large extent this reflects the relative lack of capacity in vocational education and training courses in the County Donegal area. This can be contrasted with other Border areas where there is a much broader range of post-leaving certificate course provision or vocational colleges. That flow drops to approximately one fifth relative to the situation in the north west. The great distortion in the flow is very evident.

Given that we are in the European Union we fund and support students from the Republic of Ireland just as we do for students from any other part of the EU. In the short term, this may become a source of tension, given the funding implications for the Northern Administration. However, we are co-operating closely with our counterparts in the Department of Education and Skills. I raised the issue with my counterpart Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, in November 2012, on the margins of the NSMC meeting. Officials from both our Departments have agreed to collect and examine the data with a view to providing a joint report. The terms of reference of that exercise are due to be agreed in September 2013. It will study both higher education and higher education flows.

Northern Ireland students only account for about 1% of the student population enrolled in HEA-supported institutions in this jurisdiction. By contrast, the number of Southern students in Northern Irish universities amounts to about 4.5%. This illustrates a significant imbalance. In the past a much higher percentage of Northern students opted to study in the South but for various reasons in the past number of decades there has been a significant falling-off. There are barriers around entry to universities and also a lack of information which need to be addressed. I suggest these issues could be explored in the question and answer session.

It was feared that a much different funding regime in Northern Ireland compared with the Republic of Ireland would create incentives which would further distort student flows. However, both jurisdictions have moved in a common direction around student support and charges to students which in my view will produce a fairly level playing field on the island which will be of assistance in due course.

While I am highlighting these distortions in flows and the current imbalances, it would be wrong for the committee to confine its discussion to what steps can be taken to correct those imbalances within the current quantum of student flows. I return to my opening comments that we see a potential for a much greater collaboration on student flows on the island. With a rising tide those distortions should be evened out without the issues becoming a major source of tension between the two jurisdictions in the medium term. I stress that in the short term there are issues which we need to explore together.

I will return to the issue of youth unemployment, which is a very thorny issue in Northern Ireland, as it is in the Republic of Ireland. We are conscious that this is an issue throughout the European Union. Our figures currently run at approximately 20% of young people actively seeking work and who are currently out of work. That is a major cost to our economy and also a cost in terms of wasted lives and opportunities. There is a real danger that the investment in people's skills will be lost as those skills become rusty. We also have very heavy concentrations of unemployment among young people. Our unemployment profile is heavily skewed. Almost one in three of those who are unemployed fall within the 18 to 24 age group. We have a number of schemes in place, as is the case in this jurisdiction, which attempt to address that issue. We place a very heavy focus on work experience opportunities because that is what the international community stresses as being the best way of addressing this problem. We are also conscious that the European Union, under the Irish Presidency, has in the past weeks put together a €6 billion fund to assist with youth unemployment. There may be differences in terms of the eligibility of our jurisdiction compared to this jurisdiction and this was raised by the Taoiseach at the North-South Ministerial Council last week. There is a commitment that officials from both jurisdictions will meet in September to explore the opportunities to take that initiative forward.

I am happy to answer questions. I will pass any difficult questions to Mr. Andrews or Ms Shaw.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. The level of student flow is such that 4.5% of students in the North are from the South. There is also a distortion within that figure because many of those students are from the Border counties, from Donegal in particular. Our national figures do not show the progression of Donegal leaving certificate students going to university because they do not include the Northern universities. However, that is a job for another day.

Deputy Seán Conlan

I welcome the Minister and his officials to the meeting. I come from County Monaghan. A true university of Ulster would have to encompass the whole nine counties of Ulster, not just the six in Northern Ireland.

None of the other three counties has a university. Traditionally in Monaghan prospective students would have been very aware of what courses were available in both Queen's University and the University of Ulster at Coleraine. What can be done to facilitate both of those universities in having a better outreach programme which will ensure young people in the three counties are fully aware of what is available and are encouraged to consider what are, in effect, their local universities?

The Chairman observed that most of the flow is from the Border counties into the Republic. There are slight cultural differences which have developed over the years in this regard. From the perspective of people in the South, some might feel wary of going to college in the North, for example, or they might wish to remain in the eurozone. Simple issues like securing accommodation can also be an issue, or the desire to remain in an education system with which one feels comfortable. I am sure it is exactly the same for young people in Northern Ireland when they think about pursuing their third level education in the South. Steps must be taken to increase the linkages between the two jurisdictions, perhaps by way of outreach programmes at local third level campuses in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal, to ensure the full scope of courses is available to students. Unfortunately, counties Cavan and Monaghan have some of the lowest rates of third level attainment in the country, which is an issue that must be addressed. Many young people in the Border area identify with the North more so than with Dublin, but there is no correlation or linkage there. Anything that can be done to encourage third level participation and enhance the opportunity for educational attainment must be explored. It might not be the central focus of the work being done in this regard in Northern Ireland, but there is certainly potential in those three Ulster counties to increase the intake for the two Northern universities. It is an issue that deserves to be explored in depth.

Mr. Pat Doherty

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his contribution. I also welcome his colleagues, Ms Shaw and Mr. Andrews. My question relates to the disjoint between North and South in the area of education and how we might tackle it. Some weeks ago this committee heard presentations from delegates of three of the institutes of technology located along the Border, namely, Dundalk, Sligo and Letterkenny. I have been in contact with the delegates since then and they are anxious to pursue the matter, including by way of presentations to the relevant committees in the North. Their collective message, which also applies to the other colleges, is that their presence is almost invisible in the North. This is of particular note when one considers the demographics, which point to a fall in the number of 18 year olds in the North but a projected increase in the South. What potential has been identified in this regard and are efforts being made to enhance collaboration right across the island? I am aware that the Minister is a regular attendee at meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council. Are there sectoral meetings which he could attend with his counterpart in the South to tackle this problem and the other problems associated with it? Will he indicate what more could be done, as he sees it, to deal with this disjoint?

Dr. Stephen Farry

As Deputy Seán Conlan is no doubt aware, the question of whether Ulster comprises of six counties or nine is a contested concept depending on who ones speaks to. I take his point, however, that the name does indicate something else.

Mr. Pat Doherty

Deputy Conlan knows well who the Ulster football champions are.

Dr. Stephen Farry

I fear I am opening up a hornet's nest here. As I said, the Deputy's point is well made. For may part, I have no particular axe to grind in terms of where students are coming from. I welcome a free flow of students throughout these islands. The most important thing is that people are making choices which are informed by good information and which best suit themselves and their own career progression. There will be a variance in terms of the nature of courses that are provided by different universities. A greater degree of collaboration between North and South will allow our different institutions to specialise to a greater extent and, in so doing, facilitate better choice for all concerned.

That said, we obviously have to take decisions around funding regimes. There will always be different systems depending upon the jurisdiction of origin of students, but one hopes they would operate within similar parameters and would not create too many distortions in the flows between the two jurisdictions. It is fair to say there has been a turning away in terms of natural synergies that might have existed around the Border areas in recent generations. For instance, the strong tradition historically of Northern students studying in Trinity College has fallen off very heavily in recent years. Information is key in terms of access. We are very keen to ensure our local universities market themselves to prospective students throughout the island and that career advisers in this jurisdiction would provide information in terms of the availability of courses. My colleague, Ms Shaw, might wish to comment on that point.

Ms Judith Shaw

The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, UCAS, organises an annual event in the King's Hall in Belfast where universities throughout the United Kingdom provide information to prospective students on their particular offerings. In recent years we have seen an increase in participation by institutions from the South, including the University of Limerick. The more we can do of that the better. In that context, it is about increasing the flow from Northern Ireland to the South. In terms of working the other way, we are encouraging the universities in Northern Ireland to engage in similar activities in the Republic.

On the question of the availability of information, our career advisers have been working with students in the Border counties who are interested in studying in the South to help them with their CAO applications and so on. There has been a recognition in recent years that we need to be doing more for all students. It is not just about which part of Northern Ireland one is living in; it is about people being able to access information on opportunities in all parts of the UK and in the Republic and deciding on an individual basis which presents the best option. The more information people have the better informed they will be in terms of their decision-making.

Dr. Stephen Farry

Mr. Pat Doherty raised the issue of changing demographics. I am very conscious that there is pressure on places in the Republic as a consequence of the growing population. In contrast, we do not have the same demographic pressures in Northern Ireland. That would, at first glance, indicate there is a partial solution in terms of some of the excess demand in the South being met in the North. However, it should be borne in mind that we have our own challenge in terms of encouraging local students who would have opted historically to study in Great Britain to instead remain in Northern Ireland. While our third level participation rate, at 50%, is very high, some two thirds of that number are accounted for by people studying in Britain and only one third in our local institutions. In other words, our higher education footprint is actually quite small relative to its potential. In that context, we are looking to see how we can scale up our presence overall. By 2015, for instance, we intend to provide at least 1,200 additional places, possibly more, in the science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, area. Ultimately this is about facilitating the free movement of students, and encouraging greater participation by students from the South might well be part of it.

Equally, I would encourage the Southern jurisdiction to examine how it can expand its own provision. It is something that needs to be addressed, but it is not for me to comment too much on particular decisions that are taken.

It was striking that in the context of these different networks that were being put together by universities, the ones approved were located in the south and the east of the island. Again, the one relating County Donegal was not seen as really meeting the aspirations of the policy that was being set. There is a very particular problem that exists in the context of what is happening in the northwest. While there are challenges to be faced across the island in terms of developing collaboration, we have a very acute issue not just around the Border in general but in the northwest in particular. That is something to which we must attend and which the colleagues of Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, are not shy about discussing. We must pay particular attention to expanding the Magee campus. I will just get that one out of the way.

Chairman

We can discuss that one over a cup of tea.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome our guests. This is an extremely important matter. In the context of cross-Border co-operation and the challenges we face, it is very upsetting that we have not really tackled youth unemployment. When the 1% and Trinity College are removed from the equation, the figures that are left are very stark. At the most recent meetings they attended, those from the colleges admitted that they had perhaps been asleep at the wheel. There were markets here in the South and north of the Border, but people were looking further afield. Huge opportunities existed but it is obvious that we failed. We can put on all the shows we want in the King's Hall and put in place various networks but we must make matters easier for those involved in order to attract more students. Obviously, it was less expensive for students from the South to go to college in Northern Ireland. What does the Minister believe could be done in this regard? Could incentives be put in place? We can talk around this matter but perhaps some capital investment should be made in the context of trying to get students to attend colleges. St Angela's in Sligo, which is located near to where I live, faced a huge challenge in the context of being subsumed into the National University of Ireland Galway, NUIG. Those who run the institution were obliged to think outside the box. There is a market north of the Border and St. Angela's offers courses in nursing and home economics, which are very practical subjects. It may be time to get everyone together and perhaps this is happening.

What action can we take? Can we put in place some form of monetary incentives? Once someone from Belfast attends college in Sligo or someone from Sligo goes to the University of Ulster Coleraine, the link is established. Politicians receive correspondence each day and we might breeze through most of this. However, there is nothing better than receiving a letter from someone from Sligo who has gone to Coleraine to attend university or from a person from Coleraine or Belfast who is attending university in Dublin or Galway. Are there any incentives which might be put in place?

Chairman

If it is acceptable, I will also take questions from Deputy Smith and Mr. Paul Maskey, MP, then the Minister can conclude.

Dr. Stephen Farry

That is no problem.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I welcome the Minister and his colleagues and I thank him for his contribution. If we are to be realistic with regard to collaboration, then we should not focus on who is going where. There is a bigger picture - particularly if one views it at the macro rather than the micro level - which must be taken into account. We should be discussing an all-Ireland context with regard to providing the optimum when it comes to educational facilities and an education system across the 32 counties. I am surprised that there is such a differential in terms of the number of students who travel north vis-à-vis the number who travel south. When I attended UCD, there were quite a number of students from north of the Border there. The Minister referred to Donegal, a county with which the Chairman is more familiar than any of the rest of us. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is a renowned facility with a huge student population. Just to the south of it are located Sligo Institute of Technology and St. Angela's College. On the east cost is Dundalk Institute of Technology and, as Deputy Conlan indicated, there are two institutes of further education in Cavan and Monaghan. There is quite an amount of educational provision in place at present, but this must be built upon.

By 2009, the South had achieved the highest level of participation in tertiary education in the European Union. That was a dramatic improvement in just ten to 15 years. We were well ahead of Britain, France and Germany at that point. The level of participation to which I refer was evidence that there had been a huge growth in the capacity of our further and third level institutions to cater for the increased demand. Quite a number of those present at this meeting live in either southern or northern Border counties and we are aware of the particular bugbear that is duplication. There is a need to eliminate the latter, which we see occurring each day in different programmes in our constituencies. I am of the view that action must be taken at the macro level in order that we might provide the optimal return for students and for society in general. We cannot have a situation where all institutes of technology and universities specialise in every subject. There is room to eliminate some of the unnecessary duplication that exists in order to ensure that we will obtain a better return for students. I am of the opinion that, as with health, we should opt for a centre-of-excellence model. There is a need for arts and humanities courses in every college but there are subject areas in which, as a result of the small number of students involved, one or two colleges might be tasked with providing the necessary courses.

The Minister referred to framework 7. In order for some of the programmes involved in this regard to draw down funding from the Directorate-General for Research & Innovation of the European Union, sometimes there must be more than one member state involved which is very beneficial. Having served as Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I am aware that there was huge co-operation between Teagasc - our agriculture and food development authority - and its equivalent in Northern Ireland. Teagasc and a number of other State agencies have been phenomenally successful in drawing down substantial funding from Europe during the past ten to 15 years and bringing them to this jurisdiction in the form of a transfer of resources, which has proven to be very beneficial. In order to optimise these kind of returns for the entire island, there must be better co-operation. Governments and Departments can put general policy in place but it is the people who operate at the coalface - namely, the colleges and other institutions - which must drive the collaboration to which I refer at local level. Continually discussing who is going where in the context of third level education has led us down a cul-de-sac. People must see the bigger picture.

On this island there is a major problem with unemployment. Previous speakers referred to the difficulties with youth unemployment, North and South. In addition, there continue to be skills shortages in certain areas. Has a concerted effort been made to address such shortages in an all-Ireland context? I accept that education does not just involve preparing people to take up employment. However, it is part of the remit of our educational systems. In the context of the job vacancies that exist across the island, are the two Departments doing enough - in co-operation with each other - to prepare people to take up such vacancies? I recall canvassing at the Irish Financial Services Centre, IFSC, during the most recent referendum campaign on an EU treaty. I thought I knew Dublin reasonably well but I was amazed by the number of non-Irish citizens who work in the IFSC. Those to whom I refer obviously came to Ireland in order to fill job vacancies in particular areas. These people are very welcome to come here to work. I spoke to a number of individuals at the centre and discovered that there are job opportunities for people regardless of from where they come. Has a concerted effort been made to address the skills shortages that exist? In that context, I reiterate that it is not just a question of preparing people to fill job vacancies.

Chairman

Mr. Paul Maskey will be our final contributor before the Minister replies.

Mr. Paul Maskey

I thank the Minister and the team for attending. I wish to follow on from Deputy Brendan Smith's points regarding the high rate of young people unemployed and the category of NEETs, those who are not in employment, education or training. I hosted a meeting in my constituency about seven weeks ago with organisations delivering in this area and I was taken aback by the number of organisations. Approximately 20 organisations were delivering in that area and while some of them were doing tremendous work, on which they must be commended, I had not even heard of some of the others. That is a major issue for this committee. I try to put people in my constituency in the right direction with regard to organisations but there is some confusion among our young people. We asked questions and some of the organisations could tell us the number of jobs created on the other side but some could not tell us the number created. It is startling that some of the organisations delivering in this area could not tell us the outcomes in that regard.

I am aware there are similar problems in the South. Is there collaboration between Departments, North and South, in working on this area? If not, can that be enhanced in terms of examining best practice models? Some organisations are doing tremendous work but I am not sure about other organisations. If there are models in both jurisdictions, can we determine if something could be blended together to ensure we provide an excellent service for our young people, thereby reducing unemployment rates.

Dr. Stephen Farry

There is a wide range of issues to touch upon. I will begin with the issue of the nature of the formal collaboration on a North-South basis in terms of the institutional way we are addressing this area. To be frank, this is something that has been working well under its capacity since the Good Friday Agreement, and we should acknowledge that. In part it relates to the particular nature of the North-South Ministerial Council, NSMC, structures. As members will be aware, there are a number of formalised areas where there is bilateral co-operation and a requirement for meetings. Those were fairly hastily determined in the heat of the final negotiations around the Good Friday Agreement and were not the subject of a formal analysis. While there is co-operation at a formal institutionalised level within the NSMC around other forms of education, there is none in regard to further or higher education. I am open to that changing in the context of a review of those structures but that is a much bigger political issue. Others in my part of the world may have reservations about formally extending the nature of the institutional co-operation around those issues. In the absence of that, it depends upon the drive in terms of those leading the respective Departments. When I assumed office I was struck by the relative lack of engagement that had taken place. It is still not perfect but I and my officials are keen to increase the degree of dialogue we are having around these issues. I discussed the matter with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and from both our perspectives, we are not getting overly hung up about whether the institutional arrangements are formally changed, but we have both given a commitment that we will work in a pragmatic way, be it at ministerial level or giving directions to our officials to work bilaterally around these issues. I firmly believe that we have a good working relationship and that we are addressing issues and opportunities as they arise.

There are a number of common issues, North and South, on which there is a potential for greater sharing and engagement around information and various programmes we have in place. Sometimes, we will formalise that. To give an example, we had an official from the Department of Education and Skills on the review of adult apprenticeships that we undertook in Northern Ireland in 2011. That was done as a precursor to a similar initiative to be brought forward in this jurisdiction. We are currently engaged in a major review of apprenticeship policy in Northern Ireland and I note, with great interest, that a similar initiative has been announced in the South. I would be keen that we would share notes and experiences around that.

That in turn points to what we should be doing to address youth unemployment. The levels of youth unemployment around Europe are in part a feature of different levels of demand but they are also a product of skills shortages and skills mismatches. Simply relying upon a general education system, whether it be further education, higher education or the school system, to churn out young people who are job-ready is unrealistic. We may largely hit the mark but at times there will be an inefficiency in that there is a strong role to be played in terms of work-based training through apprenticeships. We are very keen to significantly expand the range of occupations to which apprenticeships are applied and also the levels at which apprenticeships are applied. Apprenticeships should be seen as part of higher level skills, not something that people do if they fail to get into university. They should seen as an genuine alternative pathway to the more formalised route through higher education. We have much to learn from some of our European partners - particularly Germany, Austria and Switzerland, although the latter is not formally part of the Union - in this regard. That is an exciting opportunity in both parts of the island which should go some way towards addressing some of the particular skills pressures that we have found.

That in turn relates to the issue of NEETs. These are people who are technically unemployed but would be perhaps further away from the labour market because they face some particular barriers or they have not had the same opportunities as others. There has been a very significant increase in the provision of resources for NEETs during the past 18 months and hopefully that is filtering through on ground. That was probably what Mr. Maskey picked up on in his constituency. We would be keen to sit down with him and map exactly out what he is saying and point him in the direction of what are new projects and what are pre-existing projects that may not be performing as well as they should be. There will shortly be a new round of funds under the European Social Fund which will refresh a lot of that offering. This area is a major priority for the Executive in Northern Ireland, as he will appreciate.

Returning to more of the formalised higher education co-operation issues, I echo the message that we should not have a narrow focus on who is doing better in terms of student flows and the implications that would arise from that, and Deputy Brendan Smith appealed that this be avoided. That is something we need to take note of but the medium to long-term solution lies in a rising tide in terms of student flows on the island. This feeds into the opportunities for specialisation. As the world gets more complicated, education and training needs to become complicated to keep up. Similarly, if research becomes more specialised and concentrated, there is a need for institutions, in turn, to focus their priorities. If there is a much freer flow of people on the island, that allows opportunities for specialisation and we would all be winners from that outcome. If we consider, for example, computer science and if we end up with one institution specialising in certain languages and another institution specialising in others, one can begin to see how we can all benefit from that. Similarly around research, many of the competitive funds, particularly FP7, involve applications across jurisdictional boundaries. Partnership between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland on this will be vital. Both of us will stand to benefit significantly from that outcome.

Today's session has been very worthwhile. It helps me to understand the nature of the issues and how all the members view them. I certainly have a clear message that there is a desire for us to see much greater collaboration and discussion between the Ministers and officials in both jurisdictions.

There will be mutually beneficial outcomes for us all if we get this right. The committee has my commitment to continue exploring these issues and intensify that process in the coming months.

Chairman

We appreciate the Minister being here but we also value his insight and acknowledge his willingness to co-operate. As Deputy Smith said earlier, we should not get caught up on the number going from point A to point B, but at the same time we must be aware of the reality.

Dr. Stephen Farry

Yes.

Chairman

The new buzzword I came across that the Minister can use is "co-opetition", which is the new way of moving forward.

It was interesting to hear the statistics given by the Minister. I would be eager to find out more and work with the Minister on the further education statistics indicating that 3,000 students are going to the North. I was struck by that figure.

On the 4.5% flow, it would be interesting to get a breakdown of that. I assume that much of it is coming from the Border. The natural university for many secondary schools in Donegal is the University of Ulster, be it at Coleraine, Magee, Jordanstown or Belfast. I know Mr. Doherty wants to speak on this point also but it is important to acknowledge the role played by those colleges. Their doors were always open during the Troubles and other difficult periods, and they were a natural home for many students along the Border. The Minister might pass on our commendation to the colleges in gratitude for the excellent-quality training and education provided to students, be it in the IT sector, engineering or teaching in Coleraine. That is a huge resource base for our graduates.

We will be very interested to hear the conclusions of the report of Mr. John O'Dowd, MLA, because the three third level colleges raised the issue of the A level equivalency. The nub of the issue seemed to be the disparity between A levels and the leaving certificate. It will be interesting to hear the outcome of that report and no doubt this committee will be eager to present the findings. I call Mr. Doherty, who wants to ask a question.

Mr. Pat Doherty

Are the EU regulations to do with finances, including grants and so on, driving this in the north west?

Dr. Stephen Farry

I would not say it is driving it in the north west. That is an issue regarding relative provision on the two sides of the Border, including at the further education end. It is not that the north west is a shining example or a relative of the other colleges in Northern Ireland. It is a product of the relative lack of capacity in the County Donegal area that is driving that. In terms of financing, under European Union law, we have to treat a student from another part of the European Union in the same way we would treat a student from Northern Ireland, and that applies in reverse.

In my response to Deputy Feighan I omitted to mention the issue of the financing and incentives. In the past in Northern Ireland we paid the registration fee for our students from the South, which on the surface appeared to be a good deal. However, maintenance support was not available, and therefore, while they got in the door, they were on their own in terms of surviving in other areas. That may have created a disincentive. They can now take out a tuition fee loan to pay that fee but, in turn, we have put in place a more generous support package in terms of maintenance. It is hoped that will start filtering through. It will begin from September of this year. The wheel may well be turning.

Chairman

I thank the Minister, Ms Shaw and Mr. Andrews. I propose we go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.20 p.m. and adjourned at 1.52 p.m. until noon on Thursday, 26 September 2013.