Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 3 May 2023

Developing Rural Tourism: Discussion

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputies Niamh Smyth, Munster and Christopher O'Sullivan and Senator Cassells. I take the opportunity to welcome our new member, Deputy Andrews. I look forward to working with him on the committee in the spirit of partnership and co-operation. I thank our outgoing member, Deputy Mythen, for his hard work and collegiality during his time on the committee and wish him well in his work on the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

The meeting will be split into two separate sessions to examine the development of rural tourism in Ireland. The first session will involve representatives from Fáilte Ireland, the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation, ITIC, and the Irish Hotels Federation, IHF, and officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media. During the second session, we will hear from the Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI, the Association of Visitor Experiences and Attractions, AVEA, and the Coach Tourism and Transport Council, CTTC.

We have some committee business to dispose of before I invite our guests to deliver their opening statements. May I take it the draft minutes of the meetings of 22 February and 1 and 29 March are formally agreed and there are no matters arising? They are agreed.

I warmly welcome all of our guests. From the Department, I welcome Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary with responsibility for tourism, and Ms Orlaith Gleeson, principal officer with responsibiltiy for tourism and development. From Fáilte Ireland, I welcome Mr. Paul Keeley, director of regional development, and Ms Orla Carroll, director of product development. From ITIC, I welcome Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane, chairperson. From the IHF, I welcome Ms Denyse Campbell, president, and Mr. Tim Fenn, chief executive. The format of the meeting will be such that I will invite our guests to deliver their opening statements, which will be limited to three minutes. As our guests are probably aware, we may publish the statements on our website. This will be followed by questions from committee members.

Before we proceed to the opening statements, I must explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses around references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or official outside the Houses by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement they be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to the constitutional requirements. Any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

We will begin with Mr. Ó Lionáin.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Míle buíochas, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. I welcome the opportunity to engage with the committee on the development of rural tourism in Ireland. A key feature of the tourism offering is the proximity of rural and urban experiences. Only minutes outside our busy cities and large towns, visitors will find quiet rural retreats with wonderful scenery, attractions and visitor offerings. While the Department and its agencies are focused on the sustainable development of tourism across the whole country, the particular importance of tourism to communities in every corner of Ireland is well understood, especially in our rural communities. Tourism is nationally important as a key employment sector and driver of regional economies.

The Department and the tourism agencies, namely, Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland, are conscious of the importance of tourism for the regions. Our colleagues in Fáilte Ireland have been working on the development of regional tourism strategies that will be complemented at a more local level by destination experience development plans. In marketing Ireland as a holiday destination, Tourism Ireland is undertaking activity aimed at generating demand that delivers balanced regional growth. This includes its twinning initiative, which involves overseas markets having a particular focus on a specific region. The work of both agencies should ensure greater regional dispersal of tourists can create opportunities for businesses, job creation in more communities and business in the shoulder seasons.

Ireland’s natural assets can also be complemented by appropriate product development across the regions. In budget 2023, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, secured €36.5 million to support that continued tourism product development. A relevant recent example in this context is the launch last Friday of Ireland’s programme for the EU just transition fund, which will see the investment of €68 million in tourism in the midlands. This regenerative tourism scheme will be a driver of employment for the midlands, with the funding to be broken down under a number of headings, namely, the delivery of a strategic network of connected walking, cycling and water trails across the midlands; helping support public, private and community-based tourism enterprises to enhance and sustain local economies; and provision of a range of supports for smart transformation and entrepreneurship. The Minister also secured an additional €15 million for overseas marketing in 2023. Of that, €3 million has been allocated for the regional co-operative marketing scheme to enable tactical partnerships that will help drive increases in visitors to the regions. This will amplify the Ireland message overseas and support direct access to the regional airports and seaports. Additional domestic marketing funding secured for this year will allow Fáilte Ireland to continue to build momentum on a mass-reach media marketing campaign called Keep Discovering. Particular focus will be put on promoting regional destinations and supporting shoulder season tourism.

It is now recognised that tourism growth must be sustainable environmentally, as well as commercially and socially. This means we must reimagine the tourism sector and address sustainable tourism development in a more meaningful way. With that in mind, the Department has initiated the development of a new national tourism policy that will seek to mainstream sustainability. This new tourism policy will seek to support sustainable development in communities throughout the country, while protecting our environment and natural resources and with a greater spread of demand across the year. This will be of particular importance to the regions.

When we look at the wider economy and the particular set of challenges facing the tourism industry it is clear that a collective and concerted multi-stakeholder approach to tackling these challenges is required and that is the approach the Department will continue to pursue.

Mr. Paul Keeley

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting. It has received our opening statement, but in the interest of time I will give an overview of the key points. Tourism is a key economic engine that makes a sizeable contribution to communities across the country in the form of jobs and its support for the sensitive development and management of our natural and built heritage. At the heart of Fáilte Ireland's work to develop greater spatial spread of tourism are our four regional experience brands, which are the Wild Atlantic Way, Ireland's Hidden Heartlands, Ireland's Ancient East and Dublin.

For each brand, we have developed a regional tourism development strategy in partnership with local authorities, State agencies, community groups and industry partners. These strategies will ensure a focus on sustainable tourism development with benefits accruing to local communities and to nature. To deliver the strategies, we are creating local destination experience development plans, again with key stakeholders across every region. By the end of this year we will have 24 of these plans active, and 36 in place by the end of 2025. The backbone of our regional strategies is a capital investment programme of €320 million in attractions, outdoor changing facilities, greenways, trails, and the wider public realm. We are currently working on nearly 120 enhancement projects and are progressing well with our pipeline of 27 large-scale attractions nationwide. While we recognise that we will encounter variations in anticipated timelines for project delivery, trying to accommodate these changes with a fixed annual capital allocation constrains our ability to manage our capital pipeline dynamically.

Encouragingly, the growing demand from visitors to explore nature offers real potential for rural Ireland. The natural heritage and cultural assets found in our national parks, forest parks, inland waterways and coastal waters have the potential, if developed appropriately, to be a key motivator for visitors. Recognising the important role tourism plays in supporting rural communities, Fáilte Ireland has been awarded €68 million through the EU just transition fund to deliver a transformative regenerative tourism scheme for the midlands, supporting rural communities directly affected by the move away from peat production by creating new employment and enhancing the local environment. We are currently developing a funding scheme and as part of this we are undertaking public consultation this month in the eight counties covered by the scheme.

While we hope for a strong summer season, the sector faces several challenges that could impact on rural tourism in particular. First, 35% of all registered tourism bed stock outside Dublin is now contracted to the State. This puts business survival in the wider tourism ecosystem at risk. We estimate that it will cost the non-accommodation tourism sector over €1 billion in lost revenue this year and a significant amount of this will be experienced in rural areas. The lack of availability of hire cars and the discontinuation of the repayment of VAT on the vehicle registration tax, VRT, scheme in 2019 has contributed to increased costs within that sector and this directly impacts the capacity to explore rural Ireland. Finally, rising insurance costs and the difficulty of securing affordable liability insurance is adversely impacting adventure tourism, festivals, and events.

We look forward to questions from the members.

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak on the issue of developing rural tourism in Ireland. ITIC is the main representative body for all tourism and hospitality stakeholders throughout the country.

Tourism and hospitality is the country’s largest indigenous industry and biggest regional employer. There are 20,000 businesses in the sector, the vast majority of which are SMEs, and latest Central Statistics Office, CSO, figures show approximately 250,000 people work in the industry, 70% of whom live in regional Ireland. Covid-19 hammered the sector. Fáilte Ireland estimates that, net of generous Government supports, the tourism industry lost €6 billion as a result of the pandemic. Thankfully, over the past 12 months, recovery has been strong. However, there is a feeling of nervousness about 2023, with soaring costs of business, weakening economies here and overseas, the reduction in supply as a result of Government contracts with tourism accommodation suppliers and a proposed increase in VAT. It is fair to say that competitiveness is a key challenge.

I am here to talk about developing rural tourism. This is a subject close to my heart as, together with my family, I own Fitzgeralds Woodlands House Hotel & Spa in Adare. Working with a fantastic team of 270 great people, I see first hand the importance of tourism in our community in terms of local businesses, suppliers and sponsorship. There are large parts of the country where tourism is the only show in town and where it has a far bigger impact than the likes of agriculture, manufacturing or foreign direct investment, FDI. Therefore, maximising tourism’s potential in all parts of the country is critical.

For this meeting, ITIC has four important points to raise, the first being the importance of regional airports. Direct air access is critical to the regional spread of tourism. Dublin Airport is in a dominant position but other airports in the country need to be supported to allow for direct air access to the regions. In this context, we urge Government to expand its investment to Cork and Shannon. EU state aid rules offer the opportunity to extend state investment aid to all airports with passenger numbers below 3 million. However, the threshold set by the State for airports wishing to access funding under the regional airports programme, RAP, is currently set at 1 million passengers per annum. ITIC is of the view that there needs to be alignment of Irish and EU policy. The threshold relating to RAP in Ireland should be increased to achieve this.

The second point is the impact of Government contracts on reducing tourism accommodation supply. In regional Ireland, 35% of all tourism beds have been given over to the Government for Ukrainian refugees and asylum seekers. Looking at County Donegal by way of example, over 50% of tourism beds are contracted to the Government, as are 39% of beds in County Clare and 37% in County Kerry. Not only will this have an undoubted impact on the availability and price of the remaining tourism beds, but, worryingly, downstream tourism businesses such as restaurants, attractions, inbound operators, and activity providers will all miss out on the tourism dollar. Fáilte Ireland estimates an annual loss of earnings of €1.1 billion. We urge Government to make a provision for downstream businesses for the current season.

The third point relates to the opportunities within sustainable tourism. The Irish tourism industry is fully behind the ambitious targets of Ireland’s climate action plan. Ireland's tourism businesses intend to fully play their part in this and some great work is already being done. However, the majority of Irish tourism and hospitality businesses, particularly in regional Ireland, are SMEs with modest profit margins. Therefore, a step change in funding supports will be required to enable industry to achieve some of the bigger-ticket sustainability goals such as green energy, electric vehicles, EVs, and retrofitting. We are delighted to see the EU just transition funding put in place as a great example of what can be done.

The fourth and final point is around developing our regional transportation infrastructure. Currently, one out of every three holiday-makers uses car hire. However, post-pandemic rental car fleets are only at 60% of 2019 levels. We are urging Government to reinstate the pre-2019 VAT on the VRT repayment scheme to increase in supply of rental cars in Ireland and to ensure the pipeline to regional Ireland is not constrained. Tourism is the lifeblood of so many communities in Ireland. As it stands, Irish tourism is not expected to recover to pre-pandemic levels until 2026. Continued Government support in respect of the matters raised today is critical to ensuring that we stay on course for recovery.

I thank the committee members for their time. I will be happy to answer any questions they may have.

Ms Denyse Campbell

The IHF welcomes this opportunity to discuss with the committee the development of rural tourism. As Ireland’s largest indigenous employer, tourism is highly effective at spreading employment opportunities and prosperity across the entire country and contributing toward a more balanced economic model. Nationally, tourism supports over 220,000 livelihoods. With approximately 70% of tourism jobs outside of Dublin, tourism’s extensive geographic distribution reaching every town and county is critical to sustaining our wider regional and rural economies. In addition to providing local employment, tourism businesses buy local services, source locally produced food and provide a vital infrastructure in support of local business and the communities in which we operate. In 2019, tourism generated over €7.5 billion in revenues, €5 billion of which was in regions outside Dublin. The benefit is also seen by the Exchequer, with tourism generating approximately €2 billion in taxes annually. This does not come about by accident. Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland do fantastic work, including supporting rural tourism through targeted product development, industry support and marketing initiatives. Looking to the future, tourism can continue to grow and prosper provided it remains at the heart of decision-making relating to Government. Rural tourism offers significant potential with opportunities to extend the season, diversify markets and encourage visitors to travel more widely. As outlined in our submission, we believe this can be achieved through further investment in attractions and the development of activity tourism, wellness, outdoor recreation and agritourism. This should go hand in hand with greater provision of accessible public transport.

Taking a wider view, a long-term commitment on the part of the Government is required to ensure the right conditions are in place to support the sustainable development of our industry. We cannot afford to be complacent. Every tourism euro spent is hard won in what is an increasingly competitive international market. As such, the high cost of doing business in Ireland remains one of the most pressing issues facing tourism businesses, including throughout the regions. Needless to say, taxation policy is a key tool at the Government’s disposal to create the right environment for growth and recovery. We have seen the results in terms of Ireland’s approach to attracting foreign direct investment which has been enormously successful. Likewise for the indigenous economy, the Government’s approach to the VAT rate has delivered excellent results supporting tourism employment and businesses. I would point out, however, that Government’s planned increase in VAT from September would result in Ireland having the third highest tourism VAT rate in all of Europe. This means Irish tourism businesses, including rural enterprises, will be at a significant disadvantage in seeking to attract visitors to our shores.

We look forward to exploring these issues further with the committee.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Thank you for your statements. We will proceed to a question and answer session with members. Each member has a five-minute slot, but we can be generous with time because of those who are unavoidably absent. The speaking rota that was circulated will be used for both sessions. I call Senator Malcolm Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank all the witnesses. Some of them make regular appearances before the committee. I would hope in the same way that a judge dismisses a jury after a period that it might be a while before they appear before us again. We know that all of our witnesses are very passionate about their business. Hopefully, they feel the same about what we do as a committee. One of the big issues we have been looking at is rural tourism. A range of concerns have arisen. There are many challenges in the tourism sector, but there are quite specific challenges outside the cities and the major urban centres.

I would like to focus on two issues and any of the witnesses can address them. I get the point about the VAT rate. Obviously we are moving quite close to budgetary decisions and the VAT issue has been pointed to on a regular basis. Apart from the VAT issue, what decisions should Government consider in the budget that may be able to specifically support rural tourism?

My second question is about diversification in rural areas, which is support for activity and accommodation provisions. One of the concerns raised here previously is that many hotels, especially in rural areas, are being used to house refugees. That is necessary but what other alternatives are there? How can we support, as Ms Fitzgerald Kane mentioned, farm diversification, the traditional B&B model, glamping and so on? What are the financial and policy considerations we need to consider to advance those possibilities?

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

Regarding budget and rural tourism, there are a few different issues. The VAT decision is important. However, other issues are also important. Funding for the airports is very important. Shannon Airport is the lifeblood of the western seaboard. If we look at Irish policy versus EU policy, a huge opportunity exists because that is a major funnel when it comes to international visitors.

We need to look at our transportation infrastructure. Fáilte Ireland and ourselves have made the point about car hire and refleeting opportunities and how we need to make a change and revert to the VAT on VRT export repayment scheme as an opportunity because 60% of 2019 levels does not meet what we need now. We are in a situation where more than 100% of flights have been restored so we need to look at that. Equally, we also need to look at it at a more localised level to see what incentives can be put in place to try to grow the local transportation infrastructure. In our own hotel, it is difficult to get transportation services not just at peak times, but at off-peak times as well. That is felt across the country. We have to remember that we have so many different types of visitors coming from overseas who have never driven a car in their lives and that is the reality of it. That is one aspect of it. The second is availability for those who can drive, of car hire or even chauffeured tours, but equally we have the challenges of the person for whom the car is not the mode of transport.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

On the night-time economy as well, dare I say, once people are outside the major urban areas, they can forget about looking for late-night transport.

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

It is really difficult. I have a lot of family in the United States and I am aware of how taxi businesses are being used to supplement incomes there. Surely we could look at incentives or some sort of community schemes here. That is a huge thing. We need to see continued investment in greenways and blueways and it needs to go hand in hand with transportation investment.

With the very real humanitarian crisis we are facing with asylum seekers and refugees from Ukraine, alternatives to accommodation really need to be explored. Existing infrastructure that could be repurposed needs to be looked at. We have also seen modular housing being used very successfully overseas. While it is not the best option available because of its temporary nature, it is really important. We also need to see funding put in place for the those downstream businesses. The season has not kicked off in earnest yet. It is going to be profound, particularly where there are high degrees of accommodation contracted as well. The constraint on accommodation, particularly in some centres where all the accommodation is available, and the impact of that is going to be huge. In the interim we need some sort of funding in place for businesses that are affected by it. Ms Campbell referred to activity providers, so perhaps she would like to follow up.

Ms Denyse Campbell

The capacity issue is a very difficult one for everybody and we fully appreciate that. We need a balanced approach on the issue in general. In our view, we need to continually invest in tourism. Great work is being done, but as I said in my opening submission, we cannot afford to be complacent. From that point of view, if I park the VAT we would say that we need to continue. Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland fight very hard for everything we get so we need to continue that and we need to remain as competitive as we can.

Mr. Tim Fenn

As mentioned earlier by Mr. Keeley and Mr. Ó Lionain, the local destination experience development plans are a key part of developing the product right across the country. There has been wonderful engagement with local authorities and Údarás na Gaeltachta, and this is a key part of it. We see the industry and the stakeholders doing great work to engage in the strategies at a local level. One cannot impose national ideas on what might not be relevant to a local area. However, once the businesses get engaged and once there is some local unused or underused asset that can be developed, that is a really important part of where we are. We can have long-term or short-term views on all of this. While there are some challenges at the moment regarding accommodation capacity we have to take the longer-term view. These assets will be there for the local people, as well as the potential visitors who are going to come there. Once the attraction is there, the entrepreneurs will then look to provide accommodation capacity.

On the subject of VAT, why is it that some of these counties and towns that are struggling to figure out ways to develop their tourism product with all the assets and capital investment that entails, are being asked to pay the third highest VAT rate in Europe? Nobody is answering that question. That is what we would like to see the Government figuring out for us

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I did want to steer clear of that because we could get into the question of why consumers are paying some of the highest hotel rates in Europe as well. I want to come to the question about the incentives for other types of accommodation being provided. I am looking at the role of glamping, self-catering, B&B and the supports for those types of accommodation as well and without steering into the other major controversy, the option of Airbnb - perhaps not Airbnb per se but short-term letting in certain circumstances, for instance, farm diversification.

Mr. Paul Keeley

The first issue is access into the regions. Dublin Airport dominates the market share and is the key entry point into the country.

If we want to support rural tourism, it is important to be able to get great ground transport solutions in place. I have two comments. We need some resolution on the car rental piece; but the other piece, on which we are making some progress, is working with the likes of Local Link in terms of getting the good last-mile solutions in place so that we can link key regional towns with their hinterland. Progress on those two would be helpful.

The other piece is accommodation. We had a session recently with some of the banks and financial advisers in this territory. There is zero appetite among the financial community for investing in accommodation outside the key urban centres. It is one of those things. A classic for us from our destination-development perspective is that if we want to get the full value of the visitor economy we need the bed nights, but sometimes it can be difficult to encourage the beds into an area if people do not feel there are enough things to see and do. We get that inherent contradiction. For us, it is like a mosaic. We must have accommodation. If we want it, and we want to move at speed then we are going to need to incentivise the market to do it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Mr. Keeley should forgive me for slightly counteracting what he suggests but in the past when we examined section 23 and other tax incentive schemes, some were more successful than others. I am looking at Government incentives and schemes. Does Mr. Keeley believe we need to look at introducing those kind of specific schemes to incentivise accommodation?

Mr. Paul Keeley

Yes. My view is that we do, but I would do it very tightly geo-targeted and very time limited. We have learnings from the past in terms of leaving schemes open for too long. What we do not want to do is distort the market. Where we know there is market failure, there is a logical role to play in stepping in to try to incentivise it. It could be done as part of an integrated destination-development plan so that accommodation is going in in isolation from the other things that will drive occupancy.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will add to that. As a Department, we continue to take the temperature of what the emerging issues are. As the Senator correctly identified, we feed in what those key priorities are as part of the Estimates process. As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, we are currently developing a national sustainable tourism policy that will have two key drivers. It will be about regional and temporal spread. The regions are absolutely critical. In the short term, one of the drags on tourism in the regions that we have identified, which colleagues have mentioned, is the VAT on VRT and issues relating to car rental. We previously raised that last year with the Minister for Finance and we will raise it again. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, will meet this month with the Car Rental Council of Ireland to tease through the current situation, so that she can again make an informed case and argumentation for that. That is just a quick update on the position.

Senator Annie Hoey

I thank the witnesses. I was watching proceedings on the monitor and I said I would come down. It is nice to be in the committee room and not running around the place.

I wanted to ask about transportation infrastructure because it is such a key area. I know we are talking about getting tourists into areas, but even as part of moving to a green economy, transport is an issue for staff, including seasonal staff, getting from one place to the other. I know a lot of people in rural areas who have to drive to work. There is no question about that. They are all driving to work. As we are part of the global transition to a green economy, there are multiple elements to the issue of rural transport. However, I will not ask the same question twice.

There was talk about the people who are seeking asylum and the diversification of the accommodation they need. I know there has been a campaign by a number of people to reduce the requirement to be here for six months to be able to work to three months. It is very important that people who are living in communities, whether they are there for six weeks, a year, two years, or whatever it is, are able to be a part of that community. Has that come across the radar of any of the witnesses in respect of work permits? If it was reduced to three months, would it be useful for the tourism landscape? Those people are living in communities, who might be able to contribute, through seasonal employment or in another way. Has that come across the desks of any of the witnesses? I am not asking them to make a policy decision. I am campaigning for a reduction on the requirement, but I just wonder whether it has appeared.

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

I thank the Senator very much. The matter of green investment in transportation is major. As I alluded to earlier, the profit margin in SMEs is very limited. We are coming from the pandemic where there is a huge overhang in terms of losses. Those very ambitious targets are not going to be achieved unless there is a step change in funding. There are big challenges for the SEAI. My colleagues in Fáilte Ireland and the Department are doing their best in terms of making inroads in that, but there needs to be a different mentality around it. There is not enough support if one wants to stand up and make a difference. We need recognition that there are people at different stages as well.

We have a solar farm on our own property and it is a huge commitment. We are looking at biomass and different opportunities. We feel that there is not enough advice in respect of a central repository of advice, nor do we feel there is enough funding. The same passion is not there in terms of the private and public aspect of it.

The Senator touched on work permits. There are different versions of permits. There is a six-month delay for asylum seekers getting an opportunity to work. We have some incredibly bright and brilliant people who are highly skilled. That is definitely something that should be prioritised. No matter whether it is healthcare, tourism or retail, there are so many versions of how that should be expedited. There is a huge impact. Not being able to do anything for six months is soul destroying at a very basic human level, especially for people who want to build their lives here. We must look at that.

Running side by side with that is the whole issue of work permits. There are 20,000 vacancies in the tourism sector alone. One of the issues we are very mindful of is that the rules on permits reference critical skills. Chefs are included in the critical skills programme and now there is an opportunity for managers, of which there are acute shortages, including preceding the pandemic. What is important is that we look at what happens beyond the two years. I will give an example. I have two amazing guys who work in our kitchen team. They want to be reunified with their families and to build a life here. Their spouses are very skilled in their own right, yet there is no opportunity to do that. If we really want to go the distance with people who want to build their lives here, who have a major opportunity to contribute, we must look at that.

One of the points I did not address earlier was short-term tourism lets. The whole urban versus rural aspect of it must be addressed. There is a stall at EU level, but it would appear that Scotland's model has a lot of merit to it. We must be very mindful of that. I have heard of letters being sent to people. A few cases came up in County Kerry in particular as part of the previous committee meeting. That is not reflective of the realities that exist in the current tourism season or the EU stall. We must make progress on that as well.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Senator. I am going to take her advice and not decide policy on the hoof.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is always very welcome.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Yes. In terms of the situation with the new arrivals to Ireland, in particular over the past year, it is important first to reflect on where we are now compared to where we were in February. In February, we had just over 8,000 people in the temporary protection system in Ireland. Between those in temporary protection and Ukrainian people arriving, we now have 83,000, so it is staggering what we as a country have done in finding space for them. Tourism has obviously taken the brunt of meeting the accommodation needs.

There is already a good participation rate in the workforce among the Ukrainian people who have arrived in Ireland under the beneficiaries of temporary protection, BOTP, system because they have the same entitlements as any Irish citizen. Hospitality and tourism have been a beneficiary of that. More than 15,000 BOTPs are working generally and approximately half of those are working in our sector.

On those who do not have the automatic entitlement to work, the issue of shortening from six months to three months has not been specifically raised with us. However, in our engagement with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, it has been very responsive when we have gone to it with asks, for instance, on specific skills within the sector and reducing what was at the time a backlog in processing work permits. The Department has really turned that around so key skills in the sector now have a fast turnaround, including for chefs and others. Without making any commitments on that Department's behalf, it is responsive to the needs of the sector. If there is an argument to be made there, my experience is the Department's officials and its Minister are alive to the challenges and opportunities. It is certainly worth having a conversation with them.

Senator Annie Hoey

Great job. I will follow up on that. It is something that comes up when we talk about skills shortages. I am thinking of people I know who feel they are languishing for six months. They are itching to be able to participate and have skill sets, not just in this sector but across multiple sectors that are crying out for experienced people. There is all this bad rep that goes flying around about people not wanting to do this, that and the other. I will engage with the Department on that.

Mr. Tim Fenn

I will come in for a second. Great progress has been made by our Department and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in reducing the time delay in the work permit system. There is a requirement to have the travel visa system linked to that as well. We believe there has been some progress on that. We would like to see something happening in that regard.

Underlying all of this is the way we are recruiting from overseas. When people are in the country and in some kind of State-support system, the challenge for employers is to find accommodation locally for them. It underlies all aspects of society. That issue is there. People need to understand the implications that has for every single business in every single town.

Senator Annie Hoey

I will ask one more question. The Seanad is dealing with a Bill relating to apprentices later and the struggle some places have to recruit them because the potential apprentice cannot get accommodation where there is recruitment. It underlines absolutely-----

Mr. Tim Fenn

As the Senator mentioned the word "apprentice", we would like to say something about it. Two systems are in place at present. There are traditional apprenticeships that are both on- and off-the-job and new apprenticeships where the employer gets to pay all the costs. A grants system is in place but we would like to see equality between the two structures of apprenticeships. Again, it is one of those things where there is always a challenge where you have a training centre, an employer and a person's residence. Quite often, these are some distance from one another. This brings us back to the challenge of local transport in local communities and local areas and how that is working. Not everybody can afford a car to drive to work. We always try to ask the Government to relook at ways of improving transport in rural areas. That also feeds into the challenges around some of the road networks and trying to keep lorries out of towns and all that kind of stuff.

For us, apprenticeships are a very important part of where we would like to go because the earn and learn model is very important for some people who are not minded to go to college for three years or whatever. A big part of where our industry is focused is making sure that people who are minded to come to work in our industry are looked after by us. They do not necessarily have to have high qualifications but we are duty-bound to provide the education and advancement structures to them, the recognition of their learning, and the ability for them to have a great experience while they are working in our industry.

Senator Annie Hoey

Great. I will bring that up in the Seanad at 6.30 p.m. The need for a central repository of advice for this greening programme was talked about. As everyone associates us with green, Ireland has an incredible opportunity to be that green tourist destination. I was struck by what Mr. Fenn said regarding people who are at different levels and the different levels of support. When we talk about greenways and so on, I often think of the environmental impact and all these other things that have to be balanced out. Will the representatives elaborate a little more on where we need to go in order to get ourselves to that? As was said, because of the profit margins, asking people to invest in things is very difficult, even when people have the best will in the world and want to make the shift to this green economy, which is a huge global economy. I am not an expert in it but people my age, in particular, are now very aware of where they are travelling and the impact they are making. As the land of 40 shades of green, Ireland has a real opportunity in that regard but if support for businesses is not quite where it needs to be, then we are miles off it.

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

The Senator is looking my way so I think the question is for me.

Senator Annie Hoey

It is just because Ms Fitzgerald Kane mentioned the repository.

Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane

I am happy to contribute and give the benefit of our experience. Our hotel is on 40 acres of organic ground. Our green story is not new but very much part and parcel of who we are in terms of our development, down to having our own well and adding a second solar farm. Regarding the promotion of green energy, we have a sustainability manager who is our head gardener. It is a major challenge for us to continue at the pace we want to. As it is right, it is a good fit and it is a natural opportunity for Ireland, there is every reason we should lead the curve on this.

I acknowledge that Fáilte Ireland has put in place a designated sustainability department. That is a big departure that is looking bright. It is only new so there is no pressure as regards what needs to be done. That will be a huge repository. If I look at the infrastructural pieces we want to do, who do we go to? It is an absolute minefield when we talk about energy sources and heat pumps. It is a very specific field. There is no central repository. You are relying on somebody else's story to try to find out whether that is the best fit for you. Due to the carbon footprint of our property versus others, we struggle to find somebody who has the same type of business, etc.

On the SEAI, a system is in place where applications have to be made in March. By the time you find out, and naturally there is a lag, whether you are approved or not, it all needs to be done and the job completed by October. As anyone who knows tourism will know, those works need to be done during the off-peak period, which is in the earlier part of the year or, potentially, later. It is difficult to get the work done when you are at your busiest but, equally, it does not recognise the lead times for substantial programme planning. We have to be very conscious of that. I am sure it is on the hit list for my colleagues in Fáilte Ireland and they are working on it already.

On the issue of that central advice, there is an infrastructural piece and a cultural piece. We have a huge opportunity but we also have commitments around those very real targets. While we are well on the way, we still feel very challenged at times in trying to get to where we need to go. There was a significant programme around the carbon calculator recently, which is of huge value, but it is difficult for the smaller business to navigate. A lot of information is required. There are some great recommendations but how do we bring people on the journey? It is an issue of resources. There are so many courses throughout the country on green sustainability. They are all at different levels and variations but it is a minefield. People need to be handheld. It is unique to their properties, at this stage, until we establish broad genres. We find it very challenging. Our ambition and passion is well beyond the resources available to us now. Hopefully, that will change.

Ms Orla Carroll

I will follow on from that. As mentioned, Fáilte Ireland is developing and pulling together a team of people to look at this because we believe sustainability is crucial, not least because the visitor is most interested in our heritage and culture. Our landscape is an asset. We are seen as green and we need to treasure and maintain that. We do that in everything we do as a development agency. We implement the visitors, industry, community and environment, VICE, model in all our development right across everything we do. There are two aspects to this. One is working with the industry, as mentioned, and helping it on the journey. We recognise the need for a hub. We had a national conference last November for the industry to bring it on that journey, as mentioned. We are looking at accreditation and have a suite of supports, toolkits and so on to help the industry.

It is a minefield of nearly too much information. Where do you start eating the elephant as such? What is needed is greater alignment across all of government so we are working together to make sure we are helping all sectors, not just tourism, as much as we possibly can. We are working with the SEAI but we need to work more closely and make sure the different supports available, not just for the tourism agencies but other agencies, also work on a cross-sectoral basis.

From our own perspective, regarding the carbon calculator, the key is measurement. We do not know how we are progressing if we do not actually measure. Getting that baseline is key, as the industries and different businesses are then able to actually see the impact they are making and feel they are actually getting somewhere, as opposed to it being lip service. The carbon calculator is a key element of that, as is getting people on the journey and having a programme of work which they deliver on.

On our development work, we have talked about destination development and Mr. Keeley mentioned the mosaic approach. It is about transport but it is also how we develop things. On greenways, which have been mentioned as well, we are working closely with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, on the different greenways around the country. There are nine in development. A key part of that is also interpretation. Greenways have a key role in linking up villages and towns. They are of benefit not just from a visitor perspective but also from citizen, community and health perspectives.

Linking back, we mentioned just transition in our opening statement. It is very much about shifting from brown to green. This plays a huge part in just transition. What we are trying to implement in the just transition territory is a regenerative tourism scheme. The idea behind that is more than just "do no harm"; it is actually that tourism can bring a positive effect to both nature and the community. That is our planned approach but it takes all of us together to deliver that.

Senator Annie Hoey

On that, I have actually written down that contributing to the betterment of the places one visits is becoming quite an attractive concept for people.

Ms Orla Carroll

Yes, it is growing with visitors. They want to volunteer and give back or, at the very least, not just "do no harm" but actually witness it and benefit the area. That is really important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Senator Hoey. I do not see anyone online offering, so I will take the opportunity to ask one or two questions. I thank our witnesses for joining us this afternoon and for their contributions. We all appreciate each of their inputs into this area because rural tourism is vital for the regions in terms of sustainable jobs and ensuring we have local economies being supported through a vital sector.

Regarding Fáilte Ireland's support and development for rural tourism, what measures are in place to ensure we have even distribution of resources in funding around product development? There are various schemes in place, such as the small and large grant schemes, and they are vital in providing essential funding to ensure that areas can boost visitor numbers and there are attractions in place. We have also seen previously that there is a large-scale capital programme and different themes around that. Will Mr. Keeley provide the committee, and those joining the session today, with an understanding of the mechanics around each of the schemes that are available?

Mr. Paul Keeley

I will certainly do that and maybe Ms Carroll will want to jump in as well. Where we invest is guided by our understanding of what the needs are, destination by destination. We work through the four regional strategies and then with more localised plans doing that classic gap analysis, looking at the maturity of the destination and its product mix and mapping that versus where the growth potential lies. From that, we identify which pieces are missing from the overall destination jigsaw, for want of a better term.

Depending on the maturity of a location, in some mature locations some of our focus and investment can be around traffic management, parking and simple things like moving people away from pinch points. In other areas, the gaps are about a need for an attractor of scale to actually put the place on the map. We will flex accordingly to make sure the schemes we bring through do that job of work. We come back to this issue of sustainability. If we want to be credible in this space, we have to get that regional dispersal, and we are tracking our impact in that regard. We also want to create sustainable businesses and that means the season cannot be a short six- or eight-week season. We want to spread the business out into the shoulders, and again, that may point to particular product issues which need to be addressed with regard to giving people the rainy day opportunity. From our perspective, we flex accordingly. Some of that will be done by Ms Carroll through our strategic partnerships with other State agencies. Some of it will be open-call grant schemes etc., but all the time informed by what the particular development need is in different parts of the country. There will be a close alignment between where we are trying to drive growth and where those investments go.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Platforms for Growth previously comprised €150 million in grants from 2019 to 2022. It funded various measures, one being immersive heritage and culture and another being the shared facilities for activity providers. The last one was around the gala dinner venue investment scheme. Were there any learnings from each of these schemes that could possibly be fine-tuned or in some way tailored? Does Fáilte Ireland have future schemes? What are its themes for 2023 and beyond? Will that soon be published and what will it contain?

Ms Orla Carroll

We learn from everything we do. We do not always get it right but we try. The different schemes were mentioned. Each of those was trying to achieve something different. As Mr. Keeley has mentioned, it is based on our knowledge of the different destinations and regional gaps, where we identify what is needed. One was to do large-scale attractions because we felt that Ireland does not have those. Outdoor activities were mentioned as well, and that was a growing need. That idea came pre-Covid but during Covid we realised that people saw the outdoors as something that was no longer to be avoided but as something to use. It had come at a timely fashion and it was seen as a need.

The way we work is subject to the caveat that everything is done in line with state aid rules, so that restricts us. We have always-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In what way do state aid rules do that?

Ms Orla Carroll

There is a limitation on what exemptions one can work under and what brackets funding can be funnelled through. Each of those different brackets has different grant-aiding aid amounts. Deputy Dillon mentioned immersive heritage and culture. That is what we tended to use in the past, but there is also regional aid, infrastructural aid and different percentages of funding that can be given. They also take into account - this is where private over public comes in - the future commerciality and profitability of a business when calculating the state aid as well. There are quite a lot of things to consider. What we try to do is maximise where we can and look at where there is the greatest need. As we are spending taxpayers' money, we also have to make sure we put it towards getting the best possible return on investment and having the best possible impact.

Something Mr. Keeley mentioned as well is that while it is a competitive process, we take into account where projects are located. For example, we invested in Strokestown Park House, Gardens and National Famine Museum, which had a successful opening last year. Some 10,000, 20,000 or 30,000 visitors to Roscommon has much more of an impact than, say, another 10,000 visitors to Dublin. We take that into account, manage it and look at its impact. We review every application by its impact on the destination and its wider impact.

Mr. Keeley also mentioned that we work with strategic partners and the local authorities. A lot of that work is about how we leverage State assets for the greater good of the destination. Through initiatives like developing greenways, we see more other businesses coming. We talked about accommodation and we spoke to financiers. They need the motivators. They will follow if the visitors are there. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, where the attractor comes first.

Deputy Dillon asked about future grant schemes. We have a pipeline, as Mr. Keeley mentioned in his opening statement. We have 120 outdoor projects and we have 27 attractions in the pipeline. We are restricted by the envelope we have to spend each year. Money cannot transfer over, so it is tight and that causes us complications. Unfortunately, capital projects, by their nature, get stuck either in planning or because of inflation. There are other things outside of our control.

We do not have any new schemes forthcoming because our pipeline is committed. The exception is just transition, for which we have received €68 million, and we aim to launch in July to August a group of new schemes, both public and private, for that territory.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In terms of delivering on a budget of €150 million, did Fáilte Ireland have to surrender some of that in regard to the completion of projects that did not go ahead? Is that something Mr. Ó Lionáin can talk to in terms of trying to deliver through local authorities or other agencies to try to get that specific strategic partnership? I am sure there is difficulty at present in regard to getting projects started, with cost inflation and building inflation, but we are running big surpluses as a Government. Is this something we can look at? Perhaps Mr. Ó Lionáin can talk about the additional funding being made available for these once-off projects to ensure we have visitor experiences across all regions.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

As a Department, our priority is to ensure that the long-term capital funding is there to develop projects and programmes that we have not yet even invented. We have an envelope under the national development plan and Fáilte Ireland gets a chunk of that, which is enabling it to deliver on the various projects under Platforms for Growth. One of the challenges that we have discussed with the agency is how, in the current environment, it spends its full envelope each year. Fáilte Ireland is taking what, to my mind, is a quite rational approach of overcommitting each year to ensure it hits 100% each year. As Ms Carroll mentioned, with the best will in the world, there will always be a delay in some projects. As a Department, and working with Fáilte Ireland, our aim is to hit 100% every year, where at all possible.

In the longer term, as a Department, we would certainly argue that there is a need for sustained and increased investment in tourism infrastructure around the country, and that is something we will pursue with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and elsewhere. Right now, it is about making sure that financial pipeline is there and that it gets spent every year.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In my own constituency, I would see difficulties with resources and delivery, even at a local level and within the local authorities because housing is dominating most local authorities at the moment. If we have a carryover of projects, Mr. Ó Lionáin’s Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform need to be aware of that. If we build these visitor experiences, people will come to the regions, which is crucial and should be a key priority within the Department. I know that if Fáilte Ireland had the money, it would spend it but there are constraints around construction and project management, which is adding to the mix.

I call Senator Carrigy.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I apologise for being late as I was at other meetings. I welcome the witnesses, in particular Ms Carroll and Mr. Ó Lionáin, whom I met just last Friday in the Corlea centre at the launch of the just transition, which was mentioned. That is €68 million and, to be parochial, a significant amount of that investment is going to go into the counties that are most affected, even though I know it applies to a bigger area. I know the witnesses are not going to comment on it. I just want to highlight that we need to make sure that areas like Longford, Roscommon and Offaly, where plants were closed down and jobs were lost, receive more than their fair share. I think they are entitled to that, to be honest.

The witnesses mentioned Platforms for Growth. I know Longford County Council submitted an application and was not successful, although I think it got down to the last 11 with a proposal for the old Connolly Barracks site, which it owns. I apologise if the witnesses have been asked this question already. Are other opportunities opening up shortly for local authorities or local organisations to put forward for capital funding of that nature to develop a project? I come from a county which had the lowest numbers some years ago and we worked very hard to try to build our base and utilise the assets - I am involved in the tourism committee there and have been for a long number of years. It is only when people come and see the level of natural beauty we have, and the trails and walkways which we have in abundance, that they see Longford in a more positive light.

One issue that we have in the county is accommodation, apart from the current situation where a lot of accommodation is being taken up for refugees. We still need a flagship four-star hotel in the region, something we do not have. It is up to us to build the infrastructure, bring the people and get that investment to come in so someone might develop the opportunity that I believe is there. Is there going to be an opportunity for us in the short term to have another go for capital funding?

Ms Orla Carroll

There are two parts to the answer. First, nationally, we do not have any plans to launch a scheme this year. The Department is developing its tourism policy and, in line with that, we will have an investment strategy following that to look at new funding schemes. However, in the case raised by the Senator, his county is in the just transition area and part of that is a funding scheme to do with what we are calling strategic partnerships with local authorities, so we will be looking at many local projects with all of the local authorities in the area.

The caveat is that, as the Senator well knows, just transition projects have to be done, built and claimed by the end of 2026, which is quite restrictive. That means we will have to be quite selective in the projects that get done because, otherwise, we lose the money to the territory, which is not what we want. “Yes” is the answer in regard to Longford. There will be projects through the local authorities, but as to what they are, we need to work through that with them. That would be the caveat through all of that.

I would also add the caveat that while €68 million is a lot of money, we do not want to spread the jam too thin so no one benefits substantially enough. Across just transition, we are having a mix of schemes that will be for public and private, with the aim that they are open to all to apply. While that does not mean all would be interested in applying or would be successful, there is an opportunity for all to at least avail of it.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

With regard to funding, the Chair mentioned funding inflation on projects. I suppose this is a mixture of the Department and the Government. When Paul Kelly of Fáilte Ireland was here a number of weeks ago, I mentioned a specific project we are working on locally that secured funding some years ago, which is the Norman heritage village at the Knights and Conquests Heritage Centre close to my home area. However, we have run into problems and delays, and a lot of that is due to finance. Paul Kelly said on that day that Fáilte Ireland would match, percentage-wise, the increase up to a certain point. Will the Government and the Department do so also? I know it came through the Department of Rural and Community Development but, ultimately, it is within the tourism remit to make sure that project gets off the ground. The money was probably sanctioned four years ago under the rural regeneration scheme to develop the project with the local community, Longford County Council and Fáilte Ireland. However, as I said, to get diggers onto the ground, we are going to need an increased commitment to that project from the Government to make sure we can develop it as was planned, or even at a slightly reduced scale to bring it back to figures that are achievable for every organisation.

We really need it in north Longford. We have seen the success that Center Parcs has brought to the midlands but particularly to south Longford. We need to balance that tourism product across the county. I think we have a unique opportunity in Granard but we are going to need further support because, to be honest, it would be a huge ask for the local authority to try to bridge that gap to make sure that project gets off the ground. I know it is not for Mr. Ó Lionáin’s Department but it comes under the tourism remit. We need support and for that extra funding to be put in place to make sure that project takes off.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

While I am not intimately familiar with that project, it is an issue that is happening across the board. I see it, for instance, in sports investment, where adequate money was given three years ago and is now proving inadequate. On this particular project, I will be happy to talk to Fáilte Ireland and get its advice, and if there needs to be engagement with our sister Department in support of getting the project off the ground, we can absolutely do that.

Certainly, the collective message from this side of the table is that there needs to be steady investment in key tourism infrastructure. That needs to happen every year. The market needs to keep evolving to maintain Ireland as an attractive place and to draw people to the regions. We are happy to engage with Fáilte Ireland and with our colleagues in the Department of Community and Rural Development on that as well.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I have a few other points to make. In relation to tourism, I want to put on the record my compliments to Paddy Mathews and the whole team at Ireland's Hidden Heartlands. I do not want to start naming names because I will leave somebody out if I do. For us, as a tourism committee and a voluntary committee, in conjunction with the local authority, we have significant engagement with the brand. A member of the team, Gráinne now attends our meetings on a regular basis and works with us. There is a very good relationship there. The team has done a lot of work to promote the midlands, in particular. A number of years ago, we felt that we were being left behind and that we did not have a brand. Signs were being put up advertising Ireland's Ancient East, despite the fact that we were 90 miles away from the coast, which drove me mad. I am delighted that we got the project across the line and we got the support to make sure we have our own dedicated brand, so much so that in recent years, other areas and counties that were not part of the brand have wanted to become part of it. That is a good and positive sign. We only have to look at the numbers, which I think are only going to increase, particularly in respect of the Royal Canal, a project that I was involved in when we stared developing that whole section. Now the greenway extends as far as Maynooth, and it will finish coming into Spencer Dock. I think it will become a destination activity for people to do, like the Camino de Santiago. Our intention was always to try to get people to walk it in three days, cycle it in two days and run it in one. I have mixed that up, but it is something that people can do. It is up to us to have the facilities in place for businesses to grow. In the last 12 months, I have seen a number of coffee shops opening up on all the walks we have developed. There are probably five or six small businesses going purely beside trails and walks that we have developed and have been funded. There are huge opportunities for us going forward. We welcome all the support. We will lobby hard and press as hard as we can to get that investment.

I will finish on the issue of the hotel industry. Ms Fitzgerald Kane, Ms Campbell and Mr. Fenn have been in with us a number of times and have set out the case for tourism. They won the support of the committee for the 9% VAT rate, which I was fully supportive of. I am sure it has been mentioned that there are still some hotels that are not playing ball. I booked something in the west of the country the other night. I will not mention the name of the hotel, but I got a fantastic deal for three nights, including bed and breakfast, in a hotel with a leisure centre for five-hundred-and-something euro. Good value is available out there. I tell people to shop around and stay and holiday in Ireland. We have a beautiful country and we need to make sure that we support it, and support the jobs in the industry.

I note that we have been struggling to get people to work in the industry. The witnesses will have found that. I still think that we need a dedicated tourism and hospitality centre. The only course in hospitality and the culinary arts is provided in Kerry. Before that there were courses run in Killybegs and Cathal Brugha Street. We do not have any dedicated centre for training. We need to invest in something in the midlands or this area to cover this half of the country and to help to create careers for people who want to work in the area. If we do that, linking in to some of the third level institutions and getting more people choosing tourism and hospitality as a career, I think we will find a ready stream of people to work in the industry. I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I have gone over time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That concludes our session today. I thank the witnesses for attending the committee. I propose that we suspend briefly to allow our witnesses to withdraw, before resuming in public session for our session with representatives of the Restaurants Association of Ireland, the Association of Visitor Experiences and Attractions and the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland.

Sitting suspended at 2.54 p.m. and resumed at 3.04 p.m.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This meeting has been convened to continue the committee's consideration of the development of rural tourism in Ireland. In this session, the committee will hear from representatives from the Restaurants Association of Ireland, the Association of Visitor Experiences and Attractions and the Coach Tourism and Transport Council. I warmly welcome all our witnesses. I welcome Adrian Cummins, CEO, and Paul Lenehan, president, Restaurants Association of Ireland; Catherine Flanagan, CEO, Seán Connick, former chair and CEO of Dunbrody famine ship experience and the John F. Kennedy Trust and Geraldine Enright, chairperson and director of Cliffs of Moher visitor experience, Association of Visitor Experiences and Attractions; William Martin of Martin's Coaches, County Limerick, chairperson, James McGinley of McGinley Coach Travel, County Donegal, executive member, and Philip O'Callaghan of O'Callaghan Coaches, County Kerry, executive member, Coach Tourism and Transport Council. The format of the meeting is such that I will invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements and as witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its web page. We will follow with questions and answers from members.

Before I invite our witnesses to make their opening statements, I must explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses around references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction. Where witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present would do. They may think it is appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected to the subject matter of the proceedings should be given, and witnesses should respect directions given by the Chair with the parliamentary practice to that effect.

I call on Adrian Cummins from the Restaurants Association of Ireland to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity for our president, Paul Lenehan, and I to appear at this meeting. The development of rural tourism in Ireland is closely linked to the restaurant sector. We welcome this renewed interest and investment that is necessary to ensure the restaurant and food industry across the island is able to recover from recent pressures, while given the opportunity to thrive.

To ensure the development of rural tourism, we should seek to maximise the benefits from food tourism. Food has an especially important role in this modern economy and in the development of tourism services in particular. Food tourism is about the range of food experiences available for visitors which forms a vital part of the value network linking local food producers, communities and cultural and tourism entrepreneurs. Growth opportunities in this area can be maximised by expanding the number and variety of authentic, high-quality food experiences that are easily accessed by the visitor, for example but not limited to, farms open to visitors; producers with visitor facilities; demonstrations of traditional skills or authentic techniques such as smoking, cheesemaking and museums or exhibitions that link the agriculture and food heritage of a region.

Anecdotal evidence of the benefits of food tourism can be seen from the success of the 2013 Fáilte Ireland initiative, The Gathering. This initiative was created to draw the global Irish diaspora back to Ireland via almost 5,000 events across the country organised by local communities. The Restaurants Association of Ireland suggests the creation of a similar initiative specifically tailored to boost the development of rural tourism. This initiative would showcase Ireland internationally, as a destination for world-class experience of rural tourism through various festivals, sporting events, plays and food experiences throughout rural Ireland. Multiple Government initiatives are aimed toward the development of the agrifood sector, such as Food Wise 2025 and Food Vision 2030. The former sets out the practical ways in which aspirations for growth within the agrifood sector can be made tangible through research, development and innovation, while the latter outlines key objectives for Ireland’s agrifood sector to become an international leader in sustainable food systems.

These initiatives highlight the role of the agrifood sector in the development of rural Ireland and provide the Government a detailed roadmap of investment priorities to maximise the potential benefits of the industry.

Continuous support for the agrifood sector would have a direct effect on rural food tourism and will undoubtedly kick-start the revival of many local, rural communities that have been decimated from the Covid-19 pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis and the below average tourism levels.

Fáilte Ireland’s research into consumer behaviour for food tourism has not been updated since 2020. We recommend further research is carried out to track best practice for consumers and inform future development. We suggest this research should include a specific focus on rural areas to ensure rural businesses have the best information to restructure their business in a post Covid-19 environment. The Restaurants Association of Ireland would be happy to assist in any future research.

According to the most recent economic commentary by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, the accommodation and food sectors is one of the only sectors not to have reached or surpassed pre-2019 employment levels. Therefore, the Restaurants Association of Ireland advocates for an increase in investment and research into programmes designed to boost tourism and hospitality-related education. We would also look at the continuation of the 9% VAT rate past September of this year. Judging from discussions with our members and the sector as a whole, the restaurant sector is not doing as well as it should and we believe the continuation of the 9% VAT rate should be maintained beyond September. I thank the committee for its time.

Ms Catherine Flanagan

The Association of Visitor Experiences and Attractions, AVEA, is the representative body for the visitor experiences and attractions sector. Our members employ 4,500 people, and in 2019 welcomed over 25 million visitors generating €500 million in revenues. Our members include profit and not-for-profit enterprises.

Of the approximately 480 visitor attraction sites in the 26 counties, 83% are outside Dublin. Thus, AVEA has a deep and sustained interest in the optimisation of conditions to support rural tourism. Our members include attractions in strategically important locations, such as the Cliffs of Moher, Birr Castle, Spike Island and Dunbrody Famine Ship, to name a few. Many visitor attractions are located in areas that do not offer alternative employment opportunities but in themselves are tremendous drivers of local rural economies. They provide direct employment, generating revenues that are spent locally in the purchase of goods and services. They also drive demand for ancillary services, like hotels, food service, retail, and transportation, and they need a strong and integrated local support structure, including good access, a labour pool, accommodation, electric vehicle, EV, charging points, and more. We refer to this as the tourism ecosystem and all parts of it must function healthily and symbiotically for the local tourism economy to thrive.

Visitor attractions also sustain local communities economically, socially and culturally. They play a regenerative role in sustainably managing visitors to areas of outstanding natural beauty; curating and recounting local heritage and history; showcasing local traditions and crafts; educating; and providing beautiful settings for leisure and recreation. During the Covid-19 pandemic, visitor attractions experienced prolonged periods of closure and then operated without international visitors and with drastically reduced capacities. This season, the pace of recovery in most rurally-based attractions is 70 to 75% of 2019 levels. This contrasts with greater than a 90% recovery for Dublin. Counties where tourism accommodation is currently low will experience the slowest, longest recovery of all. AVEA sees opportunities to develop rural tourism in a sympathetic and sustainable way, to respond to changing consumer wishes, to create new visitor offerings and to mitigate a seasonal economy. These include slow tourism; dark skies; agritourism; alternative accommodation offerings; blueways, greenways and walkways; closer engagement with State agencies that manage national parks, waterways, boglands and forests; product development; and intra-tourism carbon offset programmes, to name a few. AVEA also recognises the opportunity to welcome our "new Irish" citizens as visitors to our attractions.

In conclusion, with thoughtful, considerate and sustainable planning, the rural tourism offering in Ireland has opportunities to enhance the experience of domestic and international visitors by playing to the strengths of the country's natural beauty, built heritage and rich stories. The immediate future for AVEA’s rural members is challenging due to disruption of the tourism ecosystem and consideration should be given to an all-of-government approach to help in our businesses’ recovery that we may continue to delight and engage visitors.

Mr. William Martin

On behalf of the members of the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, CTTC, I thank the committee for inviting us to present here today and for providing us with an opportunity to discuss the opportunities that coach tourism provides in enhancing rural tourism in Ireland. By way of introduction, I am the chairperson of the executive council of the CTTC and director of Martin’s Coaches in Limerick. I am joined by my executive council colleagues, James McGinley of John McGinley Travel in Donegal and Philip O’Callaghan of O’Callaghan Coaches in Kerry.

The Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland is the country’s largest representative body for commercial bus operators. We are a proactive organisation focused on working in tandem with Government and State agencies to deliver efficient, sustainable, transport connectivity in Ireland. As a sector, we support more than 11,000 jobs across every constituency and region in Ireland and our activities have sustained businesses that would otherwise have very limited employment opportunities. Yet in the face of rising costs owing to inflation, severe driver shortages and persistent issues with licensing and the recruitment of new, younger drivers, our sector is facing a number of unprecedented challenges. Key to rectifying these issues is meaningful engagement between all transport stakeholders, therefore we are grateful to the committee and its members for the invitation to attend.

Coach and bus tours offer a range of benefits to both domestic and international tourists, including convenience, comfort and safety. They provide a stress-free way to explore the countryside and take in the natural beauty of Ireland. Additionally, they offer an opportunity for visitors to learn about the history, culture and traditions of rural Ireland from knowledgeable and experienced tour guides. Coach tourism brings key economic benefits to every region of Ireland. The coach tourism sector alone contributes in excess of €600 million to the Irish economy on an annual basis with 58% of coach tourists coming from North America, 18% from mainland Europe and 7% from Britain. Moreover, coach tourism offers a sustainable way of travelling, which is becoming increasingly important in the tourism industry and in the wider economy. Coach tourism assists in our overall aim to reduce the environmental impact of tourism by reducing the number of individual cars on our roads. They also provide an opportunity for tourists to experience the Irish way of life by supporting local businesses and communities. However, to realise the full potential of coach and bus tours in enhancing rural tourism in Ireland, we need the support of the Government and State agencies.

Regarding the visitor experience, the Government must prioritise the development of rural transport infrastructure, including roads, bridges and public transport links in order to improve accessibility of rural areas and make them more attractive to tourists. As Ireland's tourism industry continues to grow, it is crucial we focus on improving the visitor experience. Our colleagues in the other tourism bodies have already mentioned the impact of the recruitment crisis in hospitality and the lack of over-night bed capacity. However, regarding coach tourism specifically, inadequate coach parking and facilities at our country's top attractions and in local towns and villages can negatively affect the visitor experience and can leave guides and drivers frustrated. Pre Covid-19, over 2 million tourists were carried by coach operators on an annual basis and therefore it is vitally important we provide adequate space for parking, rest stops and facilities for their comfort. By doing so, we can not only enhance their experience, but also create a positive impression of Ireland as a tourist destination. This investment will not only benefit visitors but also support the growth of local economies as visitors explore surrounding local artisan businesses and attractions.

Regarding the 0% VAT rate in Northern Ireland, since 2012, Fáilte Ireland has identified the difference in treatment of VAT as a pressure point between coach tour operators in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This has resulted in an increasing number of operators from the North being used for tours in the Republic, as they enjoy a lower cost base. Consequently, the Exchequer is losing a potentially significant amount of tax revenue that could be allocated to rural tourism marketing, diversification of the tourism product, or improvement of regional transport infrastructure. To achieve tax parity between the two jurisdictions, coach tour operators should receive a 0% VAT rate or an equivalent tax treatment across the island of Ireland.

Regarding international and domestic marketing, the CTTC welcomes recent investment from the Government and commends the efforts of Fáilte Ireland, Tourism Ireland and other stakeholders in promoting Ireland as a holiday destination to both domestic and international markets via PR and advertising campaigns. The CTTC is calling on State agencies to engage with the coach industry to develop coach-specific marketing campaigns to educate tourists on the advantages of using coach travel as a safe, affordable, enjoyable and sustainable means of exploring what our country has to offer. Currently over 30% of visitors use private rental cars to explore the island. Each full coach tour can take up to 30 cars off the road and help to reduce the environmental impact of tourism by reducing the number of individual cars on the country’s roads.

Regarding cruise tourism, since the 1960s, international cruise vessels have been visiting ports in Ireland, including Dublin and Cork. Dublin alone hosted 150 cruise ships in 2018 and more than 160 in 2019. However, this number has declined drastically since the beginning of 2021 due to changes in policy at Dublin Port, with only 80 ships visiting. Due to the lack of opportunities to berth at Dublin Port with only Dún Laoghaire and tender services as an option, international cruise companies will choose not to include Ireland on the itinerary and regional ports will miss out on business. The reduction has had a negative impact on Dublin’s economy and reputation as a leading European destination and has had and will continue to have a corresponding negative impact on the regions due to a substantial decrease in coach tours from the capital and other ports. As previously mentioned, the lack of hotel accommodation means that cruise tourism is a perfect fit for business to benefit from clients visiting Dublin and the regions for day trips. To address this issue, the Government and tourism stakeholders must collaborate on a strategy to maximise the potential of cruise tourism in Ireland, particularly in Dublin. By doing so, rural Ireland can continue to benefit from the economic opportunities presented by growing the cruise tourism industry.

In summary, though our sector faces a number of profound challenges, including inflation and recruitment of drivers, our utmost priority is to continue working in meaningful collaboration with Government to work towards our collective ambition of a reliable, sustainable, well-serviced national transport network. Coach and bus companies offer a sustainable and convenient means of transport for visitors while also supporting local communities and businesses. By investing in infrastructure, providing financial incentives and promoting rural tourism, we can create a thriving industry that benefits everyone. On behalf of the CTTC, I thank the committee again for the invitation to speak. We would be happy to hear any observations or take any questions that members may have.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Before I call Senator Hoey, I am obliged to attend another commitment in the Dáil in the next ten minutes. Is it agreed that Senator Hoey will take the Chair in my absence? Agreed.

Senator Annie Hoey

I thank the witnesses. I am particularly interested in coach tourism. I often see coaches going around, doing things. It was great to hear that perspective. It was said that a coach gets 30 cars off the road. In the earlier session, there was the question of how we enable more people to access cars. There is obviously a transport issue. These are similar questions to the previous session but I did not ask the current witnesses. Hopefully it will not be too dull for them. The witnesses outlined coach tourism, the impact of our transport and it not being where it needs to be, whether that is due to quality of the roads or access. I made the point earlier that it is not just about transporting tourists to rural areas but also access for workers. Any worker I know from any rural area drives to work. I do not know a single person from outside the Pale who does not drive to work. When we talk about greening Ireland, there is a great opportunity here. We are known for our shades of green. There is a great opportunity to develop that to be a sustainable place to visit. What impact is the transport issue having on the witnesses' sectors, whether it affects getting workers or the requirement for workers to have driver licences, whether learner or otherwise? As we know, people are often required to have their own transport. If there is no impact on that, that is all right.

I will ask my questions and then am happy to hear the answers. Earlier, we discussed the impact on international protection applicants and people seeking asylum in many of our hotels and accommodation areas, and the need to manoeuvre them into more sustainable, suitable accommodation. A number of people who I have spoken to have found that requirement of being here for six months is a long time to wait to be able to work. We have many skilled workers, not just in the tourism sector but in many areas, who are currently languishing, which is the word that they have said to me. I am not applying that terminology to them, but they feel like they are languishing. Would reducing that to three months be beneficial to any of the witnesses' sectors? Has it come up in the witnesses' sectors that they are looking for workers and there are potential workers, but we are stuck with the six months? I know the visa delays have been shortened considerably and the Department is working on that. Has it come up at all?

We will debate a Bill in the Seanad this evening on apprentices, apprenticeships and various such things. The witnesses are from different sectors in the tourism industry. Some areas are probably better developed with regard to the apprenticeship model. I know there are two apprenticeship models. Have the witnesses any further thoughts on what the Government could provide for apprenticeships to help to support their sector? Those are the three areas and the witnesses can reply as they will.

Ms Catherine Flanagan

I will speak to the last item first, if that is okay. It is about careers and opportunities. As an association, we have taken a particular interest in career development and education and in developing specific education to support careers at visitor attractions. We know many courses are available for tourism and hospitality around the country. In recent years, universities have experienced a decline in applications, which we would like to see reversed. Fáilte Ireland has done much work to promote tourism and hospitality as appealing careers to the transition year cohort, which we have also leaned into, with work experience and early career mentoring. It is clear that there is work to be done in identifying the best way to continue to attract a talented workforce into our sector, which offers super opportunities and very transferable skills.

While we were well supported during the Covid lockdown, with the employment wage subsidy scheme which enabled us to retain core staff, there was inevitably some leakage from the sector into other areas where people were able to work full-time when we were experiencing periods of closure. We have work to do to rebuild the sector. Much has been done. The AVEA does not have a particular position on apprenticeships but we are keen to be active in engaging with all generations of workers because we are a sector that offers great flexibility for part-time workers, younger workers, older, experienced workers, volunteers and international workers with language skills. The more attractively we can position ourselves, the better. We have vacancies that we would love to fill with talent. They are exciting and beautiful places to work.

Mr. Seán Connick

To support Ms Flanagan on that point, particularly from the visitor attraction perspective, multiple roles are required. Many different, diverse roles are required, from digital marketing right through to administration, accountancy, finance and tour-guiding. It is not just about tour-guiding, since sometimes there is a perception that visitor attractions just require tour guides. They are complex operations, depending on their size and scale. As the Senator knows, with the climate and era we operate in, digital marketing is important to us.

Thus, the skill set now required to operate within the structure of the visitor attractions is quite high. We welcome anything or any Government initiatives put forward to reduce the waiting time with getting employees into the system.

Likewise, many of us have restaurants and we depend on the buses to deliver the visitors to our doors. The three organisations represented here work together cohesively to ensure the visitor is dropped at the doorstep. Visitor attractions are drivers of economic development in all the rural areas. We need the buses and the restaurants, and the staff to operate them, so people can enjoy the experience when they get there.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

My colleague, Mr. Lenehan, will speak on the transport issue in a second. I will cover the apprenticeships and the issues around accommodation for asylum seekers and the issues we have faced already with regard to that.

We are involved in apprenticeships and have been there from the beginning. We have developed it. It has taken us six years to get to where we are with cheffing apprenticeships and it has been a steep learning curve for us. It is very productive in terms of getting to the end and rolling it out. We now need to roll out delivery of the apprenticeship across the country. It is only in certain parts of the country that certain education providers provide the apprenticeship and that is an issue for us. The programmes are predominantly in Munster and they are not in the west or in Dublin for chefs de partie or sous-chefs. That means apprentice chefs in their third to sixth years must travel all the way down to Munster to get trained. That is an issue. We need the colleges in the west and in Dublin to onboard these apprentices as quickly as possible. On co-ordination, it is important we have a whole-of-agency and whole-of-government approach. There seem to be so many good organisations out there doing many things, but is there a single body that co-ordinates training and delivery for hospitality and tourism? I refer to hospitality and tourism because Fáilte Ireland does not have a role in hospitality but a role in tourism. We need to look at how the legislation might be amended to bring pubs and restaurants into its remit for delivery. I want that point to be very clear.

On accommodation for asylum seekers, our association supports the Government's effort around humanitarian provision for asylum seekers, but at the moment, in certain parts of the country, substantial amounts of accommodation have been taken over for asylum seekers. This means downstream businesses, which include ourselves, pubs, visitor attractions, crafts and anybody in the ancillary sectors of hospitality and tourism will be affected this summer. We are not going to change this over the next month or so; it is going to take a couple of years, but the provision of more accommodation for asylum seekers in certain areas is what is required. That accommodation needs to be for the long term, rather than the short term, because if the war continues, then it will continue and we will still have an issue around asylum applications in Ireland. That is it. I will let Mr. Lenehan address the transport issues.

Mr. Paul Lenehan

I thank members for their time. One of the main problems we have in restaurants and hotels around the country is getting to and from local destinations. Bus parking is huge, as our colleagues identified. I am from Kildare town, which was identified as a premier tourist destination in County Kildare a couple of years ago, but there is still no bus parking in the centre of the town. We have Kildare Village and the National Stud and it is quite a monastic town, but there is no bus parking. The various county councils need to be urged to provide bus parking where they can. We are very much a tourism island and that makes perfect sense.

We are the restaurants association and our colleagues in restaurants and gastro-pubs around the country find it difficult to get their customers to and from their destinations and locations. We would love to see the Uberisation, let us call it, of the whole system. It needs to be fast-tracked, or something needs to happen soon, because it is impossible to get taxis in rural destinations. It is really difficult and I do not think anyone truly appreciates it. Five years ago people went out late, at around 9 p.m., and tried to get home at around 10 p.m., 11 p.m., 12 midnight and 1 a.m. We now find people going out earlier, whether they are local and domestic customers or people coming from hotels, but they are having to leave and book a taxi at 11 p.m. or 11.15 p.m. They are all going home earlier than they probably want to just to be sure they can get home. It is chronic. Our restaurants are empty by 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. and that was never a thing before. That definitely needs to be looked at. That is pretty much it on that point.

Mr. James McGinley

Following on from the points raised, there is the matter of coach parking in the towns and cities. It seems all these businesses in all these towns want the passengers who are coming on these coaches, yet they do not want to see the coaches in the town centres. If one goes to Europe, all the towns and cities welcome the coaches. There is always a coach station in the middle of a town visitors can get off at. Barring a couple of towns that have embraced them, including Ennis, Sligo and Killarney, most others do not have town centre parking for coaches. That is definitely a huge disadvantage when you are bringing in coachloads of visitors to the town centres. You have to drop them off, arrange a time to pick them up, come back and maybe wait if somebody is missing. You may have a parking attendant trying to move you on or whatever. There are huge issues there.

The other point raised was around infrastructure. During the Celtic tiger years we saw great investment in our roads throughout the country, but most of the investment was on routes out of Dublin going to the main cities. Unfortunately, most of the coach tourists we are carrying are going outside those routes to the west and east coasts, so huge investment is needed in roads. My county of Donegal has no rail lines and if you are travelling from Dublin, you must go by road, travelling on the A5. I was on that road today. It made headlines in the last week for all the wrong reasons, due to that loss of life in an accident. It is a ridiculous piece of road. That it is the main road north to Donegal and Derry is ridiculous in this day and age. Improvements and huge investment are needed in infrastructure northwards to my own county and outwards towards the tourist areas of all the other counties in the country.

Senator Annie Hoey

I remember driving from Cork to Donegal once and the suspension was gone on my car. I felt like I had gone to Mars and back. By the time I landed, I felt like I had been blown backwards. I did not know what had hit me.

I have a couple of follow-on questions. Mr. Connick talked about perception and stuff like that. Have our guests any comments on the perception of what it is like to work in this industry? We are trying to get people to obtain professional qualifications through third level or whatever it is. How do we tackle the perception piece to show it is not just about seasonal workers and there is a long-term opportunity there, or indeed what work is being done to create those career paths so people do not feel there is no opportunity to move or grow in the sector?

The other question is around greening Ireland. This big move to green, whatever it looks like or whatever it is, is going to be challenging for many businesses, especially SMEs with tiny profit margins facing requirements for upfront cash. We spoke in the earlier session of a central repository of information on how businesses are going to move to this green economy.

Do the witnesses have any thoughts on the supports that are available or should be made available in their sectors to help businesses in this move we are all potentially looking at?

Senator Annie Hoey took the Chair.

Mr. William Martin

As regards coach tourism, over the past seven or eight years the manufacturers have made a lot of strides in reducing the emissions of diesel vehicles. Most of the tourism fleet in Ireland is Euro 6 grade which is very clean running. In regard to coach tourism at the moment, the use of electric vehicles and stuff like that, the vehicles are not really designed yet that would be suitable for us mainly because we have to carry luggage. The amount of battery power needed to drive the vehicle would be such that it would impact on the luggage space. They are making strides and we are ready to embrace it when it comes. At the moment, financially, taking a diesel coach, an environmentally-friendly one, as good as they are, we are talking north of €300,000 whereas the electric coaches are north of €500,000 or €600,000. The coach tourism product in Ireland is generally delivered by small family businesses and there is no way they would be able to raise those kind of funds on any scale to make a difference.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

I did not even know the technology is not quite where it needs to be in that sector.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I will take the question on career progression and Mr. Lenehan will take the question on sustainability. On career progression within our industry, the legacy of Covid is the retention of staff. That is the single biggest learning point we got from Covid, to retain our staff. We had a serious void of employees who left our industry through no fault of their own. They had to find a job somewhere else, or they emigrated or migrated back to their home countries throughout Covid. We are only getting back to our 2019 levels. We are about 10% off where we should be. There was a lot of heavy lifting by the industry itself, by our employees and workers and by employers over the last number of months to try to attract in new staff against other sectors that were trying to attract our staff as well. I think we have done a good job on that. There is a career for everybody within hospitality. We want to portray that it is a good job and we are doing that. Like every other sector, we have issues that we need to resolve. They may be employers that do not engage in best practice. We need to root them out or re-educate them. We have that in every sector of the economy. I believe we have made great progress around that.

We sill have a deficit in certain skills, such as cheffing. We are going to have a deficit within cheffing for the foreseeable future. The attraction of non-EU nationals coming into Ireland for cheffing is very important. A great deal of work has been done between the trade associations, Government officials and the Department around that and the waiting lists have been reduced. We need to get to a single application point where people apply for their visa and their permit all in the one go as opposed to getting the permit and then applying for the visa. People do not know whether they are coming or going. That is where we need to get to, like a modernisation of our system. The turnaround time has been reduced substantially. We may need to look at designated countries. The French do this very well in hospitality and tourism. They have designated four non-EU countries for priority for hospitality employees coming in, namely Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria. They are predominantly former French-speaking countries. They are the designated ones. That is being supported by the European Union also.

There was a question earlier about how we can help asylum seekers here to get work. Our doors are open but we need to get the turnaround time for a PPS application as quick as possible. Sometimes we see issues around that. It is a problem for us. There is an adjacent issue around non-EU students working here. Obviously they can work for 40 hours per week outside term time but during term time they are limited to 20 hours per week. We should look at those hours per week and maybe increase the limit. There needs to be a conversation around what is appropriate for the course they are on. We need to have a conversation about that as opposed to refusing to do so. We need to look at it with a more up-to-date approach.

Mr. Paul Lenehan

On making our towns greener and the directive to take cars out of our town centres, we all support this. To do so, we need the bus spaces. Taking cars out of town centres also drastically reduces footfall to many of our small town centres. In larger, more touristy areas that is all well and good, when people are automatically coming in on more direct bus and train routes. Many towns struggle when the parking that was traditionally there is taken out. It is having an impact on business. I can talk as someone who has been directly impacted in respect of a town centre that is currently under a scheme to be fully pedestrianised. Taking out the car park and not replacing it with car parks elsewhere or adding extra facilities for the town that are a short walk from the square is having a detrimental effect on our own and on other towns I know. Business owners were told that the pedestrianisation of a town centre would increase business by 20%. That does not happen. We need to be careful when we go with these kind of projects and that a lot of thought is put into it. Do the measures suit the particular town that is to be pedestrianised? Are we taking cars out of the right streets in a way that does not impact many businesses? It is a good initiative but alternative parking needs to be provided in such instances.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

We will go to Mr. O'Callaghan next and I see Ms Enright is indicating.

Mr. Philip O'Callaghan

Going back to touch on the point of infrastructure, we have the challenge of the cost of the green vehicles. It is also very important that the infrastructure to be installed in the future would include charging points, toilets for customers and toilet drops for coaches. This is stuff we see when we travel. We observe these things across Europe and these facilities are there. If they are put into the small rural towns, it will encourage coach tourism in and will encourage tourists in that direction because the facilities are there for the coaches when they arrive. If they have the toilets and the toilet drops for the buses, the operators will be pushing for those destinations. The charging points will also be very important into the future.

Accessibility is also an issue. When we have people with special needs or impaired mobility, it is important that we can off-load and load them in a safe place and that we are not pulling in at the side of streets where we are rushing and so on. These are very important points to encourage coaches and vehicles into rural Ireland.

I will go back to the issue of apprenticeships and so on.

We have had some really good engagement with and support from the education and training boards, ETBs, which we welcome and appreciate very much. However, we have the unique issue where we cannot apply for a licence for an individual until he or she is 21 years of age and then it takes anything from six months to a year before he or she becomes qualified so we lose those younger people coming into the industry. They are generally gone. When we start training we train older people because by the time people reach 21, they will have gone in other directions in life and come back to us after. It would be great if we could catch people when they are young and get them trained up when they are 18, like the HGV owners can. Even if they go away for a while they will have their licence always and they will come back to us. Even if we are lucky enough to attract 21-year-olds to our industry, when it comes to some public service contracts, and other things we are dealing with, we cannot put 21-year-olds on those contracts as people must be 25 or older. Again, such age stipulations can be very restrictive and we are losing the people that we could get. It would be very helpful to us if these aspects could be examined by the committee. Our industry was decimated during Covid. We lost a lot of older drivers through health concerns or they enjoyed the two years off and decided not to come back to work. We lost drivers to other sectors where they started to drive HGVs or delivery vans for supermarkets or whatever and those drivers have not come back to us. We, therefore, have a lot of challenges and could do with a lot more supports than we have.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

Yes, the industry it is a lot more than buses trundling around.

Mr. Philip O'Callaghan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

A lot of logistics must be considered. The debate has proven particularly useful to me in hearing about some of those issues. Ms Enright joins us remotely and perhaps she wishes to contribute.

Ms Geraldine Enright

I thank the committee for this opportunity and for facilitating my participation online. I will comment on a few items that have been mentioned.

Moving to green was first to be mentioned. Our visitors and attractions have embraced sustainable tourism and devised models to sustain local communities and economies, and to protect the environment. Many of our attractions and experiences do the right thing by measuring their water, waste, energy and have made inroads in reducing them. Many of us are part of eco-tourism networks and designated areas, which are either special protection areas or part of a UNESCO geopark such as the ones in County Clare and other parts of the country. We need money to be invested in new and sustainable energy, and in providing transport facilities and infrastructure such as electric vehicle, EV, charging points.

My next point is on transport infrastructure, and the ways people travel to work and around the country have been mentioned. Transport infrastructure is a huge challenge for us. Obviously coach transport supports this by transporting groups of people around the country. We would welcome the provision of supports for coaches such as parking facilities, toilet drops, etc. because these are needed to transport groups around rural Ireland. There has been a surge in demand for public transport around the country. In County Clare, more people are looking to use sustainable transport but the network and frequency of services are not there. We would welcome investment in the provision of greater services for visitors coming into the area, and access and connection to and from the regional airports. We would also like if in future consideration was given to services that can transport staff from rural areas to their place of work because that is a challenge. I am aware that tourism businesses, visitor attractions and experiences are looking at initiatives to alleviate this situation by introducing car-pool schemes, etc.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

I was going to ask whether there are towns that do all of this really well but I do not want to bring out too much competition between towns. It would be interesting to know what towns are putting facilities in place and where councils are focused on this issue. I will come back to my question and call Senator Byrne to comment.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

My apologies because I am caught between attending a couple of meetings. It is important that we commend the work that all of the organisations present are doing in tourism provision but, unfortunately, I have not heard the full discussion. However, it would be remiss of me if I did not welcome my good colleague, Mr. Seán Connick. I encourage everyone to visit tourism attractions and venues because it is not just enough for us, as a committee, to talk about rural tourism. I commend Mr. Connick and his team on the work that they are doing at Dunbrody in connection with what has happened in New Ross, which is transformative. We held a useful discussion on some of the attractions. We will give whatever help we can. I thank the witnesses. We should feed those supports into our report.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

If the committee decides to travel to tourism sites, I am available.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am sure Mr. Connick and his team would mind us.

Mr. Seán Connick

We would, yes. I will follow up on Ms Enright’s valid point on sustainable tourism. Many of us are very conscious of the issue. For example, Fáilte Ireland is promoting sustainable tourism. For the first time in our engagements with overseas tourism operators, some have asked what our sustainable policies are. There is a cost associated with developing a sustainable policy. Recently, we availed of an SEAI grant for an energy audit. The outcome of the audit had 12 or 14 recommendations. We can tackle the smaller and more immediate recommendations, but solar panels, heating control and management systems and the like cost hundreds and thousands of euro. We are a mix of private sector and not-for-profit projects that are supported by councils. Perhaps the Government could consider a State-backed green loan scheme, which would help us in achieving our goals. We are mindful of addressing them. New Ross is on a journey of trying to facilitate them. For example, a great deal of coach parking is available to us, as the Senator pointed out. Like many towns, we are doing our best to make the town eco-friendly.

I will attend a meeting in New Ross this evening. A new town centre first initiative is being rolled out throughout County Wexford. Many other counties have the same initiative. As part of it, we are considering measures such as pedestrianisation, the movement of people and how they are transported around, the clustering of attractions and facilities for car and coach parking to make the overall experience for everyone that much better.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Annie Hoey)

Mr. Connick made a good point about the cost of greening and what supports are available. This area is in flux and we are still learning, with new developments and expertise still being formed.

Mr. James McGinley

I agree with Senator Byrne that the attraction at Dunbrody is worthwhile. Our coaches are there regularly and it always scores highly with our passengers.

I will briefly raise an issue that affects everyone presenting at this meeting, which is cruise tourism. Today, the Regal Princess cruise ship is in Cobh. Close to 3,000 people are coming off the ship and heading off in every direction – to Blarney, Killarney, Cobh, Kinsale and so on - benefiting restaurants and attractions. However, there is an elephant in the room, in that we believe cruise tourism will not continue at its current rate. This is largely due to the fact that cruise ships are no longer being taken into Dublin Port. Upwards of 200 vessels came to Dublin before Covid hit. Unfortunately, there has been a change of policy at the port and, due to Brexit, a shortage of space and so on, it is not able to take larger cruise ships anymore.

They are being pushed out to Dún Laoghaire, which for the time being is accommodating them, but the problem with Dún Laoghaire is that it is a tender port and the ships cannot get in to the quayside and they have to use smaller lifeboats to bring the passengers to the ships. On a day that there is a bit of wind or a high tide, a lot of the time those calls have to be cancelled. There is a cruise ship sitting in the bay but it is not able to get its passengers ashore, so those are unhappy passengers who are going to go back to the cruise company complaining that they did not get their call. Even last week there was a ship in Dún Laoghaire on a calm day, yet passengers were still delayed getting ashore by two hours.

Deputy Alan Dillon resumed the Chair.

Mr. James McGinley

These cruise companies normally put their itineraries together three or four years in advance. A capital city is very important on an itinerary. Unless the cruise companies can call to Dublin the chances are that they will not follow up with a call in Cobh, Belfast, Killybegs, or any of these places around the country. I believe that, unfortunately, in the years ahead, unless we can get something sorted in the capital city, we will see fewer and fewer calls around the country. The biggest issue in this country is that, unfortunately, the Government does not have a policy on cruising, unlike when we go abroad where cities in Europe are all trying to canvass cruise companies to go into their ports and cities. In Ireland, we are not at the races at all. We do not attend the events. It is especially important at the moment when we hear about difficulties with bed nights and a shortage of hotels for tourists. These people do not need beds or hotels. There are thousands of high-spending individuals who are going to spend lots of money, not just in Dublin but in places like Cobh today where people are travelling far and wide leaving revenue in all the places with attractions. The Government, in partnership with all the stakeholders, must develop a strategy so that Ireland Inc. is at the races when it comes to cruise tourism and that we do not lose out on this very lucrative market.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. McGinley very much.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I welcome the witnesses here today. I apologise, as I was in and out. I had other business to attend to.

The matter raised by Mr. McGinley is something that has never been brought to my attention. Could he send something to the committee, as it is a matter we could address? He has hit the nail on the head. It is an opportunity for us to bring tourists into the country, who can spend money, and we do not have to worry about the lack of available beds. We can get income in shops and restaurants in those areas. I ask Mr. McGinley to make a submission to us and we could push it. What numbers could come to ports on cruise ships that we are not getting currently?

Mr. James McGinley

Before Covid, 200 ships had come into Dublin Port. The figure of €70 million was mentioned this week in stories in the news about what the market is worth to the economy. Today, the Regal Princess arrived in Cobh with 3,000 people coming off and heading to Cobh, Kinsale, Killarney and Blarney. Passengers are spreading out to all of those places in rural areas, leaving money everywhere they go. There is huge potential, but the problem is that the cruise companies are not just coming to Ireland to see Cobh. If they are coming to the country, they will normally do two or three calls, but if the capital city is not on the itinerary, the chances are that they will not come. The cruises are happening at the moment because the itineraries have been planned three or four years in advance. Rather than change the itinerary, the companies will go to Dún Laoghaire rather than Dublin Port but when they see that they are getting lots of complaints about tenders not running and people not getting ashore, they will pull Dublin from the itinerary and if Dublin is not on it, Killybegs and the other places will follow. It is a great opportunity. To be honest, we are the only country that is not at the races in this regard. I was in Europe last week at events and all these cities are pushing hard for this business. They are building piers and putting the infrastructure in places so that the cruise companies can come in, yet we are not even there. In fact, we have a sign up saying Ireland is closed for this business. It is a real pity and a loss to see it going when we had it so good pre-Covid.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It is a pity the meetings were not the other way around, as we could have put that to Fáilte Ireland. I ask Mr. McGinley to send on more information to us. It is something we would be happy to pursue.

Mr. James McGinley

I would be happy to do that.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I have family in the coach business - Carrigys in Longford. I chatted to them about the serious concerns that arose during Covid. One issue that has come up is VAT. I have spoken to the Minister for Finance about the difference with VAT in Northern Ireland and being able to claim it. Mr. McGinley is located on the Border, and he sees how companies from the North can tender at a lower price for coach tours around Ireland because they are able to claim back VAT in a way he cannot. It is a massive disadvantage.

Mr. James McGinley

Yes, it is a huge issue. We are VAT-exempt whereas they are zero-rated in Northern Ireland. Basically, what it means is that Northern Ireland operators can claim back all their VAT costs, so ultimately all their costs are 20% less. It is a derogation the UK had when it joined the EU, which is how the situation came about in the first place. It seems it is very difficult to change. In the past, we lobbied and hoped the Government could do it another way, through a fuel rebate for example, as there was in the past, or some different way so that the discrepancy would not have the same effect. As Senator Carrigy said, we are based in County Donegal, which is right on the Border, so an operator just ten miles across the Border has 20% lower costs. In the current environment where costs are huge for us all and when we are seeing increased costs, that is the difference between making a profit and not doing so.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

That is something we must highlight again with the Minister ahead of the budget because, unfortunately, what is happening is a significant number of tours are being operated by Northern Irish bus companies. As Mr. McGinley said, it is a difficult enough environment without having that to contend with.

I come from Longford, which is the county with the lowest tourism figures for many years. Center Parcs has changed that.

Mr. James McGinley

It came back with a bang.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

We still have to work on the other products we have in the county. When people go there we try to get them to see what else we have on offer and to develop small attractions that would bring people to stay. I mentioned to witnesses at previous meetings that we are struggling with a few projects for attractions that we are trying to develop due to inflation and a lack of funding. One is Knights and Conquests Heritage Centre in Granard. We received funding to build a Norman heritage village. We had projected that we would have between 30,000 and 40,000 visitors a year but, unfortunately, that has not gotten off the ground yet due to the increased costs. Any help from people in the industry to lobby the Government on our behalf for Government and Fáilte Ireland funding would be most welcome.

I am conscious of time. Mr. Cummins mentioned education and tourism. They are subjects I have discussed with him previously. We need to develop tourism and hospitality as a career. The whole industry is struggling to get people to work in it. We must promote it better and link in with the third level sector, universities and ETBs and create a stronger career focus in that regard. I have spoken previously about a centre of excellence in cuisine. There are very few. We had one in Killybegs and there used to be one on Cathal Brugha Street and now, I think the one in Killarney is the only place in the country.

We excel when it comes to produce and we are proud of what we produce in our country. It is top-class worldwide, but we do not actually promote our own food industry enough. There is a massive opportunity to develop that, build on that and develop a proper centre in the country. I will be biased; I am looking for it to be in the midlands because this would make it accessible to everyone around the country. That is the way we need to incentivise it and promote it as a career in order to get people into it. That will then fill the jobs that will become available.

Ms Catherine Flanagan

Just before the Senator came in, my colleague Ms Geraldine Enright had been speaking about new forms of energy, which of course feeds into today's wider conversation. Visitor attractions are in phase 2 of the roll-out by Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, of EV charging points in destinations around the country. This is something we look forward to. Yet, in order for those points to be of use to people, and for the ZEVI points to be sufficiently serviced all over the country, the grid needs to be in place. That will enable people to come to us in rural locations.

Additionally, because we are a sector that has a lot of heritage buildings in it, we would like to see retrofitting and finding the solutions, whether this is in the form of funds or green lending, as Mr. Connick suggested, in order to enable us to adopt more sustainable practices. Until those are in place, as I am sure the Senator knows, we will be dealing with the cost of doing business. Just before we came before the committee, we were speaking about current energy costs. The temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, has been extremely helpful over the winter months. Mr. Connick gave me an example of the figures. I am not sure whether he wants to discuss the figures he referenced. Obviously, there is a shortfall when one compares prices from last year with the subsidy to see businesses through this year. We happen to be a sector that operates off very low margins. Our average yield is €10 per head, per ticket. We might have a food and beverage yield or a retail yield of approximately €4 per head. The margins are very tight in our sector, and this is particularly the case for businesses that are not-for-profit or operate as charitable trusts. There are challenges in the cost of doing business, and at the moment energy is a primary cost of doing business. That, plus the cost of credit, makes it difficult for us to apply for loans to make changes in order to address that energy anomaly. Certainly, the cost of doing business is a primary concern of everybody this year.

Mr. Seán Connick

I was speaking with Ms Flanagan before we came into the committee room. We were making a point about the TBESS as we were having a conversation among ourselves outside. We had ESB bills for the back end of last year in November and December, and then in January and February. They increased by approximately €15,000 for a small project. When we applied for the TBESS, we got a refund of approximately €3,600. We still have to find money this year to cover the increase of approximately €11,400. We will have to generate this extra cash to cover the down period of November, December, January and February. It is therefore very challenging at the moment.

Many of the attractions are still in recovery mode. Last year, many of the rural attractions hit approximately 67% or 70% of their 2019 performance. This year, we will be targeting 75% or 80%. In real terms, if people are down by 30% of 100,000 visitors, that will be 30,000 visitors. At an average of €10 per head, that will result in the project being down by €300,000 in income revenue. The visitor contribution goes straight to the bottom line, to the finance and the operational profits, or not as the case may be. It is therefore a challenging time for us and we must be mindful of that as we head into the back end of the 2023 season. I say this because we came out of Covid-19 and we were very appreciative of all the grants we got, but we are still facing all the challenges from the inflationary costs. We are running on tight margins, as are restaurants. It is probably the same case for buses, given the price of diesel. We are running on very tight margins. It is still not a rosy picture. It is a picture, but it is not a rosy picture. It is possible that there may be a requirement for some other business continuity grant at the back end of the year, or some sort of intervention. We may have to call on the various Departments to assist us with these.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am conscious of time, so I ask Mr. Cummins to try to limit his contribution.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I will be brief. With regard to the question about careers, we need to bring the issue of careers in tourism and hospitality right into primary schools and not just into secondary schools. It has to be on the syllabus across the entire country, and not just in certain schools. That is an issue for the Department of Education. We have written to the Department of Education and we have had a conversation with officials about the introduction of cooking on the syllabus across all ages. We would like to sit down with them face to face and have a good conversation about how we could roll that out. We can see from our colleagues in Greece, 25% of whose GDP comes from tourism, how seriously they have taken it. They have now rolled out their tourism and hospitality syllabus into primary school. Last week, we met with the president of the hotel association in Greece, who is also the president of the Confederation of National Associations of Hotels, Restaurants, Cafés and Similar Establishments in the European Union and European Economic Area, HOTREC. We are a member of that. He showed us the syllabus. That is an example of how we could introduce this into the primary code.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am conscious of time. We will conclude this session. First, I would like to thank our members and witnesses for joining us today and for their valuable contributions. It has been a very engaging session. I propose that we go into private session to deal with matters of housekeeping and correspondence. We will ask the witnesses to withdraw from the committee room.

The joint committee went into private session at 6.16 p.m. and adjourned at 6.49 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 May 2023.