Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 2023

Inclusion in Sport: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

We are thrilled to have our guests with us. We have received apologies from Deputy Munster and Senator Hoey. The rest of my colleagues can introduce themselves as we go around the room.

We have two separate sessions today to examine the topic of inclusion in sport. The first session is convened with pupils from St. Joseph’s Mercy Secondary School in Navan in County Meath to discuss their P.E.-riod investigation project, which examines the mental and physical effects the menstrual cycle has on performance and participation in sport. In our second session, we will continue our examination on the topic of inclusion in sport and hear from the Disabled Persons Organisations Network, Sport Against Racism, Sporting Pride Ireland and Trust Ireland.

If our guests do not mind, we will do a little bit of housekeeping to begin with. We have some committee business to dispose of before we have the opening statements. Are the draft minutes of our meeting of 24 May 2023 formally agreed with no matters arising? Agreed.

I warmly welcome Mia Galligan and Mya Doocey. We look forward to hearing about their work, project and research. We are grateful to be able to hear the views of young people on these issues and to the students’ teacher, Ms Fiona Leavy, for facilitating this engagement. I do not think she can be with us today but we thank her. We also welcome Karen and Damien Galligan, who accompanied the students and are attending the session as observers.

Mya and Mia are here to discuss, as I said, their project entitled P.E.-riod, which is an investigation on the physical and mental effects the menstrual cycle has on performance and participation in sport. The committee notes with interest the commendation the project received at this year’s BT Young Scientist and Technology awards and has agreed to consider the project as part of its examination on the topic of inclusion in sport.

The format of today’s meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes each. However, if our guests wish to speak for longer, that is absolutely fine. As they are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its webpage. That will then be followed by questions by my members. Is that all agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence.

The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make her or him identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in the public meeting.

With that done, I turn to our witnesses, Mia Galligan and Mya Doocey. At your own pace, I ask you to make your opening statement.

Ms Mya Doocey

Our names are Mya and Mia. We are from Navan, County Meath, and attend St. Joseph’s Mercy Secondary School. As part of transition year, TY, we took part in the BT Young Scientist and Technology competition with our project called “P.E riod” to investigate the effect that periods have on physical activity. Every woman when she reaches puberty will begin her menstrual cycle. This is on average a 28-day cycle. This will continue for most females for the next 35-plus years until they reach menopause.

In our study, we looked at this issue from two perspectives: first, the physical effect that periods have on our sporting performance and, second, through a survey, the impact it has mentally on sporting participation and performance. Our study found that, physically, our menstrual cycle has different effects on performance depending on what part of the cycle you are on. For example, on days one to five, when the lining of the womb is being shed from the body, sprint performance was completed at the students' best and 44% achieved their personal best during this stage of their cycle. During days 11 to 15, when ovulation occurs, meaning the egg is released from the ovary, endurance and strength tests were performed at the students’ best.

Why are there differences? This is down to the different hormones that surge through a woman’s body over the 28 days. In days one to five, there are low levels of progesterone and high levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, FSH. However, by days 11 to 15, there is a peak in luteinizing hormone, LH, and progesterone begins to increase. These hormonal changes affect our physical performances. Some 19% of the students who took part in the physical testing said they would not have participated on days one to five, with this figure dropping by 5% after we spoke to the group and educated them on the importance of exercise during our cycle. These results show that the hormonal changes in a female’s body affect our performances.

Second, we did two large online surveys. The first was distributed to students in our school and the second was sent to those who participate in competitive sport. One of the findings from students was that when a female starts her period, roughly in first or second year, 48% will not carry out PE in school that week due to that very reason. In our second survey, we received 211 responses from across 24 sports, ranging from modern pentathlon to gymnastics. Some of the key findings were as follows. Over 50% of the athletes said they had chosen not to complete their training before for reasons related to their period, over 30% of athletes take painkillers such as paracetamol to cope with training and competing on their period, and 27% of athletes said their period affects their training during every cycle.

As our results show, women in sport face challenges men do not face due to our period. Coaches need to be aware that a female performance on one particular day may not be easily replicated a week later due to her menstrual cycle. All women should not be so hard on themselves, and here we can see the professional athletes who also struggle with cramps and general unease during their period.

Through our study, our main recommendations are that, first, coaches, management teams and PE teachers are taught to understand the complexity of the menstrual cycle and, second, the menstrual cycle should be more openly discussed in public. It is of note that more than 80% of responses from students said they would not discuss their cycle with a coach.

We thank Ms Leavy, our science teacher, for her help over the year, the Olympic Federation of Ireland for sharing our survey, all of those who partook in our surveys, from students to Olympic athletes and, finally, Senator Shane Cassells for the invitation to speak to the committee today.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mya Doocey and Mia Galligan for the very comprehensive address to the committee. We now turn to questions from my colleagues. I invite Senator Cassells to go first as he has invited these lovely ladies in for this discussion.

Senator Shane Cassells

Thank you. I extend a very warm welcome to Mya Doocey and Mia Galligan from the Mercy Secondary School in Navan. It was my honour to have met both of the students when they presented their project at the BT Young Scientist and Technology awards, where they received a commendation for their work and research. It is research that is hugely important on the very theme we are opening on here today. We are opening these thematic discussions on inclusion in sport and we will soon hear from groups representing disability and gender. We will hear from the main pillar sports next week. It is a fantastic moment for this Oireachtas committee on sport that we have two young students who are breaking down barriers on what were possibly taboo subjects in the past but that are very important to young female athletes.

On a personal level, of course, both girls are from Navan. Unfortunately, they play for Simonstown Gaels as opposed to Navan O'Mahony's, but we will not hold that against them. They are two fine athletes in their own right, two fine footballers, and, indeed, Mya represented Ireland as a cyclist in the Youth Olympics last year. They are two fine ambassadors for our town and our country.

I refer to their opening statement, in particular the point that young men do not face the same challenges as women due to the period. I was reflecting on an article that looked back on last year’s European Championships, when the British sporting athlete, Dina Asher-Smith, pulled up in the 100 m final because of cramps. She later revealed they were a symptom of her period and she shared her frustration at its impact on her sport. She made the point that if it were a men's issue, it would have been fixed by now. It was something then shared by the Chelsea manager, Emma Hayes, who made the point that athletes deserve greater understanding of the array of symptoms that can crop up. Ms Galligan and Ms Doocey talk about this as being a subject that needs to be discussed. Prior to conducting this work, did they feel it was discussed enough or that it was even discussed at all, whether in their own peer group, among their fellow students or in the media?

Ms Mya Doocey

I do not think it was discussed at all. We go to an all-girls school and we have three male PE teachers, and we definitely felt it was not talked about at all. When we went around to first and second years in our school and told them about our project, we were shocked that a lot of them did not even know what a period was, especially in first year. We thought this was shocking. We definitely feel that, since our project, there is definitely more discussion about it and it is more openly talked about, which was part of the aim of our project.

Senator Shane Cassells

That is fantastic. I have a question for Ms Galligan. Ms Doocey touched on the fact that a number of the PE teachers are male. Has there been a greater understanding and are the witnesses trying to ensure the male teachers within the school have a greater understanding as well?

Ms Mia Galligan

We spoke to them when we were doing our testing. A lot of them did not understand the impact the period can have on a girl while participating in PE. Some girls experience more severe cramps than others and some cannot partake in PE on that day. It is just that certain exercises could perhaps be changed for certain girls. We found out that some of the tests were better on days 11 to 15 and some were worse on days one to five. It is now better understood. They understand the impact it has and that it has a big impact on PE.

Senator Shane Cassells

Both Ms Doocey and Ms Galligan are people who participate very fully in sport. I want to ask about students in their peer group and students of their age. Both from their research and anecdotally, have they noticed some girls, such as friends and classmates, pulling away from sport because of this?

Ms Mya Doocey

Definitely. We got this idea because we noticed that a lot of girls in our school, in our year and especially in our class, were not participating in PE. We thought this needed to change because, obviously, a lot of girls do not participate in sport outside of school so PE is their only chance of getting any physical activity. We wanted to make sure they understood that they can do PE on their period. They just have to work around it and, even if it is just going for a walk, it is still better than nothing. At least they know now that they can work around it and make sure they participate in PE.

Senator Shane Cassells

That is from one end of the spectrum and from having talked to their fellow students on the need to address that.

The witnesses spoke to our elite Olympians as part of their research. I would be interested to know what they said about the measures they were talking. Mya talked about them taking paracetamol. What discussions were had with them?

Ms Mia Galligan

We left a comment box on the bottom of the survey and found out a lot of interesting things from it, including things you would not realise were a big deal like why shorts in some sports are such a major deal. Women are afraid to wear them in case they leak through their sanitary product. The colour of shorts should be changed because it is not suitable for them on the days of their periods. There were other comments about paracetamol.

Ms Mya Doocey

Athletics competing at a high level abroad should not have to feel that pressure. They should feel comfortable at such a high level. That was interesting to find out.

Senator Shane Cassells

That is a hugely important message from two young students. I will raise this when we have the pillar sports organisations in next week so they and all sports organisations in Ireland hear that and it is discussed and taken on board. I thank the witnesses for their presentation, for the work they are doing and for being inspirational, as I said to both girls, to people like my daughter, and making sure they have champions and leaders in their town to do that work.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the witnesses for coming in. This session is far more important than many of us might think. We all enjoy sports and watching sports, male and female, but the sad reality for many of us watching female competitive sports is it never crosses our mind that the menstrual cycle and periods are an issue women have to put up with, including when in the midst of a high-profile, competitive sport. We watch and do not think about that. This session is important in bringing that into the public domain and making sure we think this is something women have to deal with, especially in sport. We should not underestimate the importance of this session. We often bring in experts from different fields who are probably on hundreds of thousands of euro per year but the current witnesses are transition year students. It is just as important and the expertise they bring to this is phenomenal. That said, if they cannot answer any questions, that is completely understandable.

How many of the athletes the witnesses spoke to, whether high performance or across the board, referred to heavy bleedings or even endometriosis, which is a condition affecting many women? Did the research pick up on any women who experienced heavy bleeding during competitive sport and how that affected them mentally or physically?

Ms Mya Doocey

In the chat boxes of the survey, a few people said they had to take the pill because they had such bad periods and could not cope with it while training. They took the pill and other things like that to get rid of their period as they could not train and compete with their period. We wanted to educate younger people on periods because we have both had struggles with our period and sport. Many girls have problems with their period and are not taken seriously. As the Deputy said, they could have underlying conditions such as PCOS or endometriosis and doctors tell them it is just their period. Many people are not taken seriously and not diagnosed when they should be.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We could do a separate piece on women who suffer from endometriosis in general, outside of sport. In many instances, they take the pill to prevent bleeding. That is a measure that is not taken lightly.

In performance, there is the physical side but there is another issue. I am thinking of tennis. Wimbledon will be on in a few weeks. It is something we all enjoy watching but we do not think about that side of it. Did the witnesses get feedback that there was a big issue with keeping focus? That is an important part of competitive sport. Did it impact their ability to focus on the event?

Ms Mia Galligan

If you are on day 1 to 5 of your period, you are constantly worrying about bleeding through your sanitary products or, if your cramps are severe, you might not be able to compete at the level you would when not on your period. We did testing on students in our school and found the strength exercises were-----

Ms Mya Doocey

Strength exercises were completed best on days 11 to 15 but endurance exercises were completed best on days 1 to 5. Runners could aim for a PB on days 1 to 5. If more testing was done on this, people would know which areas could be performed best on days 1 to 5. If professional athletes were aiming for a competition, they would know when they would perform best. It is always running through a girl’s mind. If she is on her period, it will always make her worry more and add extra stress to her competitions.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It must impact. The witnesses are far too young to remember Atlanta 1996 when Sonia O’Sullivan was red-hot favourite going into the distance races. She had an off day. She had an illness on the day and underperformed. She and the whole country were heartbroken. It reminded us that athletes and certainly women in sport have to encounter many issues. We have to remember that side of it.

The witnesses touched on the dress code with Senator Cassells. Is that an issue? In Wimbledon they have amended some of the dress code requirements for women’s tennis. They had to wear a skirt at one point. That is no longer the case but there may still be a colour dress code and athletes have to wear white. Is that something the witnesses came across?

Ms Mya Doocey

Definitely. Irish rugby players have changed to navy shorts but it was previously white. Somebody said she was playing a match for Ireland and all she could think of was her period and if she would leak through. Competing at that high level, it is crazy that is what they have to worry about. A swimmer said she could not train on days 1 and 2 of her period because her period was so bad she could not swim.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Do we focus on educating male coaches on methods to deal with this or do we ramp up the amount of female coaching in sport so there is more understanding? Mya mentioned a swimmer who could not train on day 1. Surely there is a way to orchestrate a training regime that will allow them to train in more privacy or something like that. Could such solutions be considered?

Ms Mya Doocey

Even if we got more female coaches, all male coaches should still be more educated. The three male PE teachers in our school, since we did this project, have been more aware that when teaching a class they cannot expect everyone to perform on that day and participate, even if they just did some light exercise. It needs to be talked about much more.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

This could be the start of a much bigger conversation and awareness campaign that will have an impact nationally and maybe even further than that. It is amazing work; well done and I wish the witnesses good luck for the future.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the witnesses for their very enlightening presentation. I am conscious they are addressing an all-male committee today, apart from the Cathaoirleach. Deputy O'Sullivan touched on the point I was going to talk about. The witnesses said that 80% of respondents would not talk to their coach about their cycle or their period. Do they have any detail around the gender of the coaches in that respect? Are most of the coaches male, so there may be a fear the coaches would be insensitive or unaccommodating to the constraints facing young girls and women?

Ms Mya Doocey

The majority of coaches, especially GAA coaches, are male but even if the coaches are female, it is still a lot of pressure talking to people. People in our class probably would not have been open to talking about the topic. When we were looking for people to test, a lot of the girls did not want to do it just because they did not want to talk about their period. It is still a sensitive topic for some people, even if the coaches are female. People need to know it is okay to talk about it and people will be able to-----

Senator Fintan Warfield

Yes. I am conscious that in any of the reports that have been done, students are always unanimous about the importance of sex education and relationships and sexuality education, RSE, in schools, and are aware of the shortfalls that exist in that area of education in Irish schools. Did RSE come up on the periphery of the students' research? The unwillingness of first year students to talk about periods or whatever was mentioned in the opening statement. Does the lack of RSE have an impact in terms of young people being able to talk about it?

Ms Mia Galligan

RSE needs to be taught a lot earlier, even into primary school, because the age range of girls getting their period is so different. Some girls can get their period at ten or 11 years old and some get it at 16 or 17 years old. When some girls are that young, it is such a scary thing if they do not know what is happening. It definitely needs to be talked about, and a lot earlier. Even among the first years, a lot of them did not know what a period was and some of them were 13 years old. We thought that was crazy. I did not do RSE until second or third year so it definitely needs to introduced into first year anyway.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the witnesses for their work, which is brilliant. I thank them for coming here and briefing the committee on it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Senator Warfield. Senator Carrigy has indicated and we are very close on time because it is being ordered by indication rather than rota. As we have five or ten minutes left, can the Senator be quick?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I will stick to one question. I thank the witnesses for coming and well done on their report. They mentioned the drop-off in sport, particularly in the mid-teens. I come from a sporting and generally GAA background and have been involved in it. I served as chairperson of the county minor board at home and looked after the underage structures a number of years ago. There is an issue with males dropping off as well. Will the witnesses expand on what their findings are or what proposals they have that might reverse that trend from what they have investigated?

An Cathaoirleach

If Senator Carrigy does not mind, I will give Deputy Andrews an opportunity to ask his question, if he has one, and the witnesses can answer all together.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank our guests for the interesting presentation. I have two daughters who play Gaelic football and camogie and as Senator Cassells said, I find it inspirational for young people to be able to come before the committee to give a presentation. In their presentation, they stated they would like to see the issue discussed more openly and they have certainly achieved that today. It is really important. The witnesses also said that more than 80% of student respondents said they would not discuss their cycle with a coach. In my experience, even my daughters did not discuss it with me, which is probably more a reflection on me than anything. It is something I was not aware of. I remember I would be giving out to them to make more of an effort at training or during a game. I was unaware in a way and I should not have been so that it why this conversation is really important and very welcome. I note the witnesses stated that 80% of student respondents said they would not mention their cycle to a coach. What recommendations would the witnesses introduce to bring that 80% down to 60% or 50% or 40% among their peers, rather than among everybody else?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I will be very brief because we are against the clock. I congratulate Ms Galligan and Ms Doocey, whom I had the pleasure of meeting in the corridor earlier along with Senator Cassells. Well done on the work. Did they get any feedback, in conversation or officially, from the people they interviewed regarding individual showering facilities or changing cubicles and whether they would make a positive impact, particularly in respect of participation in team sports, to address that drop-off? Also, regarding attitudes about the darker shorts conversation, do the witnesses have further feedback on that?

Ms Mya Doocey

The issue of changing rooms did not come up for us but I believe it definitely would make people a lot more comfortable in changing rooms. While it definitely is something I never thought about, the answer is "Yes".

Ms Mia Galligan

On discussing it with coaches and so on, it needs to be taught to the coaches in a lot more detail because even if we were to go to a coach with a problem, a lot of coaches do not seem to know what to say to us. The extent of the effect a period can have on a girl while she is training can be so severe it needs to be taken into account while they are training. It needs to be taught more in order that the girls are more comfortable speaking to a coach or somebody about it.

An Cathaoirleach

Do our guests have anything else they want to say?

Ms Mya Doocey

To conclude, our overall thing was that this needs to be talked about more. After us talking to people in our school, people are definitely more comfortable about it, so that is the main thing.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank our guests very much; they have done the women of the country a huge service in their conversation, discussion and appearance here today based on their research and the facts they have revealed to the committee. The committee will take that on in its overall discussion about inclusion in sport. That concludes this session.

Sitting suspended at 2.08 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

This meeting has been convened to continue the committee's consideration of the topic of inclusion in sport. I warmly welcome our witnesses to committee room 1.

From the Disabled Persons Organisation, DPO, Network I welcome Mr. Derek Maguire, president of Deaf Sports Ireland, and Dr. John Bosco Conama, who is also from the Irish Deaf Society. Mr. Maguire and Dr. Conama are joined online via Microsoft Teams by Ms Jacqui Browne, chairperson of the Disabled Persons Organisation Network. From Sport Against Racism, I welcome Ms Amina Moustafa, board member, and Mr. Fintan Drury, acting chair. From Sporting Pride Ireland I welcome Mr. Aidan Walsh, chair and national governing body liaison, and Ms Karina Murray, events co-ordinator. From TRUST Ireland, I welcome Ms Sarah Carney, UNESCO chair at Munster Technological University and lead TRUST Ireland partner.

The format of today’s meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. As they are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its webpage. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. Is that all agreed, colleagues? Agreed.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I wish to explain some of the limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. Where witnesses give evidence remotely from outside the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceeding as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

I propose that we now proceed to the opening statements in the following order: we will begin with Ms Jacqui Browne on behalf of the Disabled Persons Organisation Network, followed by Ms Amina Moustafa on behalf of Sport Against Racism, Mr. Aidan Walsh on behalf of Sporting Pride Ireland and Ms Sarah Carney on behalf of TRUST Ireland. Without further ado, I invite Ms Browne to make her opening statement.

Ms Jacqui Browne

I thank the Chair and I wish everyone a good afternoon. My colleagues, Dr. John Bosco Conama and Mr. Derek Maguire, are in the room and between the three of us we have this opening statement. As the Chair mentioned in her introductory remarks, I am the chair of the DPO Network. We really welcome the opportunity to be here today and to have been invited to this very important discussion. To let members know, the DPO Network is an alliance of disabled people and our organisations.

There are five DPO member organisations, which have come together with a common interest in working towards the overall implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, in Ireland. The five DPO member organisations of the DPO Network are: AsIAm, Ireland's national autism advocacy organisation; Disabled Women Ireland; Independent Living Movement Ireland; the Irish Deaf Society; and the National Platform of Self Advocates. Importantly, the DPO Network is committed to the human rights and social model of disability. To be clear, this model says that the exclusion, inequality and discrimination that we as disabled people experience is not the consequence of our impairments, but a result of the economic, cultural, social and political barriers that are created and still persist in society today.

I will turn to some of the barriers to inclusion in sport. A recent report from Active Disability Ireland, which some committee members may have formerly known as Cara Sport Inclusion Ireland, carried out research in 2022 in consultation with disabled people, including the DPO Network. Its findings will be published shortly, but it has allowed me to share with the committee some of the results: 82% of disabled people surveyed said that physical activity was a priority for them; 76% said they had a right to be involved in sport; 66% said they still faced barriers to participation in sport; and 73% said they did not have enough support to become active in sport. These are stark figures and clearly show that disabled people face multiple barriers to inclusion in sport. We have the same motivations to be involved in sport and physical activity as everyone else. We want to stay fit and strong and we recognise that activity is important and good for our mental health and that it creates social opportunities for inclusion in society. However, we still face barriers that many others do not. These range from a lack of accessible facilities and equipment to a lack of disability and equality awareness, limited access to relevant and accessible information and, most of all, prohibitive costs. In addition to the lack of support structures, equipment and information, disabled people also face negative attitudes when attempting to get involved in sport, much of it couched in the language of risk. This can be seen as an expression of a medicalised view of disability and is a symptom of a lack of disability awareness and equality training in sports organisations, schools, gyms and communities in general.

Disabled people do not have access to resources and information that show how they can be involved in sport and activity, either at home or in a sports setting. This leads to a lack of confidence, which is also a barrier to our involvement. In addition, sports organisations do not advertise when events are inclusive or ensure that the information itself is presented in accessible formats for all. Accessibility in sports is a problem, with most general sporting equipment not selected with inclusion in mind or, indeed, designed based on the principles of universal design. The cost of the specialised equipment or personal assistance needed for disabled people creates another financial barrier to our involvement. Importantly for people from the autism community and people with neurodivergence issues, sensory processing, the environment, noise from equipment and the competitive nature of some sports can play a factor in some disabled people not feeling included in sports. There is a need for coaches and volunteers to receive equality training from DPOs and disabled practitioners to be culturally competent to include disabled people in sport.

As I am sure the committee will be well aware, Article 30 of the UNCRPD states that the Government must recognise the right of disabled people to take part on an equal basis with others in cultural life, recreation and sport. Among other matters, Article 30 calls on the Government to encourage and promote the participation of disabled people in mainstream sporting settings and activities at all levels; to ensure that disabled people have the opportunity to organise, develop and participate in disability-specific sports; to encourage appropriate instruction, training and resources on an equal basis with others; to ensure that disabled people have access to sporting venues and suchlike; to ensure that, importantly, children with disabilities have equal access with other children to participate in play, recreation, leisure and sporting activities, especially in the school system; and to ensure that disabled people have access to services from those involved in the organisation of sporting activities.

As noted, I have two deaf colleagues from the Irish Deaf Society with me today. In May, the Irish Deaf Society made a detailed submission to the committee. I am sure members are well aware of that submission, which contained much more information on language barriers, the importance of Irish Sign Language communications and interpretation, deaf awareness training, and the sign language interpreting service voucher scheme. It also called for Government support for the Deaflympics, which are the deaf Olympics. I am sure members might hear more about that through their questions.

I will make some concluding remarks and recommendations for the committee. We call for the development of a long-term strategy to deliver on Ireland's obligations under Article 30 of the UNCRPD to achieve the following recommendations: to create positive attitudes to inclusion through education and training, for example, disability awareness and equality training, including deaf awareness training; to improve accessible transport infrastructure to allow disabled people to access sporting organisations and various settings; to develop a strategy to increase inclusive opportunities for disabled people and ensure that information about them is widely communicated in an accessible manner; to support and promote the development of accessible facilities, environments and equipment; and to engage early with disabled people and their families to ensure positive and inclusive sporting activities and environments are accessible to all.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Browne for that comprehensive opening statement on behalf of her organisation. I ask Ms Moustafa, on behalf of Sport Against Racism Ireland, SARI, to make her statement.

Ms Amina Moustafa

SARI uses the unique power of sport, through a bespoke set of programmes, to promote inclusion, educate through experiential learning on the impact of discrimination and show how fostering relationships that challenge racism and all forms of discrimination builds a more diverse, secure and happier society. We have been working towards this since 1997. We need to do more and we need more resources to do it. Sport is a special gateway to the hearts and minds of nearly all citizens.

My journey with SARI began when I was 17 and joined its Hijabs and Hat-Tricks programme, which was set up to encourage Muslim women to play football after FIFA lifted the hijab ban in 2014. Since then, I have experienced and learned first-hand how sport has the power to promote social inclusion, create a sense of belonging and challenge racism and discrimination.

Over the past two decades, Ireland has become an increasingly diverse community, with people of many different ethnicities, cultures, languages and religions. SARI proactively celebrates this but understands, too, that it brings challenges, some of which have the potential to be manipulated to cause profound harm. Twenty-six years on from being set up to address an increase in racist incidents, SARI continues to leverage sport to tackle racism. Our programmes today use sport as a more proactive means of building a positive sense of inclusion and diversity.

We are involved in the education of the youngest among us in a way that will help them to not fear difference but embrace it. The aim is to remove any notion of stigmatisation or discrimination in the minds and hearts of future generations. We are also a resource for sporting organisations to foster sport as a special means of tackling racism and other forms of discrimination many of which are rooted in persistent socio-economic inequality Our football for unity festival, now in its third year, demonstrates how we establish long-term relationships with local stakeholders such as the NEIC Dublin, the Government initiative that oversees the social and economic regeneration of the north east inner city of Dublin. What we do there we can replicate across all corners of Ireland.

SARI works consistently at community level to build the imperatives around inclusion through minority ethnic communities in sport and in civil society. Sport is a informal environment where we can influence the development of young leaders. Through sport, we open dialogue safely to discuss and challenge racism, amplifying voices that are often absent from decision making spaces. By actively engaging and working with policy, we can uncover hidden barriers to participation in sport and wider society.

Our Hijabs and Hat-Tricks programme, in which I was involved, was set up to encourage young Muslim women to play football. Stereotypical representations of Muslim women have been shown to impact on their experience and access to sport. This programme was designed with the involvement of Muslim women like myself, with the participants making decisions on many aspects of the programme such as the design of the football kit and the selection of training times. Cultural and religious considerations such as the diverse interpretations of modesty for Muslim women meant that we were able to offer a kit that is inclusive for all. This is not only relevant to understanding sports participation patterns but also the diversity of identity for Muslim women, and how stereotypes and biases can manifest in institutions and their policies. How the programme was created is one example that can be deployed in other areas of discrimination. It is a case study of sorts.

Today, well into the 21st century, we recognise how essential it is to have a proactive approach to promote social inclusion and cohesion. This is best done through the State education system. In recent years, SARI has been working with schools and teachers on using sport as a means of teaching children critical values of respect, diversity and inclusion. SARI is especially equipped to do this through sport and to work with the educational establishment on the incorporation of these programmes across the system. We are not reaching anything like the potential of this because of limited capacity and resources. The one thing above all else we want this committee to take from this meeting is the need to resource this so sport, which after all is a part of the whole education cycle, can be leveraged to encourage the youngest among us to understand the values of respect and understanding and fully embracing all their fellow citizens, whatever their distinguishing features. This is how we can move the dial forward so that, in the future, discrimination is not part of our vocabulary anymore.

Sport Ireland launched its first diversity and inclusion policy in May 2022. This made a commitment towards promoting diversity and inclusion in sport. However, there is a great deal of work still to be done. There is an urgent need to recognise the role sport can play in promoting inclusion in our local communities and funding is required to scale up this effort. Through the collaborative design and delivery of educational programmes at local, regional and national levels, SARI will continue to support communities in becoming more inclusive spaces for all, by embracing difference and celebrating diversity through sport.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Ms Moustafa. I call Aidan Walsh on behalf of Sporting Pride Ireland.

Mr. Aidan Walsh

I am the chairperson of Sporting Pride.

To begin, I ask everyone to imagine themselves as a teenager who loves sport but does not quite fit in. As this person grows older, they start questioning themselves and their future. They wonder if sport, which has been a huge part of their life, is really a place where they can feel comfortable being their true self, without the fear of discrimination and prejudice.

In reality, that teenager was me, a boy from County Mayo. I was immersed in sport all my life but I knew I was different. I decided to keep the real me to myself for 35 years because I did not think I could continue playing sport as a gay man. For me, those two things had to be separate. I look back now and wonder what might have been if that young me was welcomed into sport and how things might have been different if I had been made feel like I belonged and if I was given a safe space to be me.

For this reason I helped set up Sporting Pride, to show LGBTQ+ people of all ages that they can become healthy and active members of Irish society, via sport, fitness and exercise. Sporting Pride is a voluntary organisation that aims to break down barriers and create opportunities for the community to participate in sport through collaboration and partnerships.

In our six years of existence, we have collaborated with approximately 30% of national governing bodies, NGBs, and 20% of local sports partnerships, LSPs. We work regularly with both Sport Ireland and Sport Northern Ireland and we are on target to deliver more than 50 sports events this year.

Sporting Pride is playing a strong part in delivering actions 6.4, 6.5 and 7 under the national LGBTQ+ inclusion strategy. Furthermore, the increased focus on minority groups under Sport Ireland’s recent diversity and inclusion policy, means greater demands for our services as we provide staff training, facilitate open days and deliver programmes, such as "tri with pride" for triathlon, "ride with pride" for cycling, and "learn to swim".

Helping NGBs and LSPs deliver sport to the community is virtually impossible without an organisation like Sporting Pride, as we provide the expertise and communication channels to promote to the relevant target audiences. However, this effectively means that a volunteer organisation has been left with the massive responsibility of delivering on LGBTQ+ inclusion in Irish sport but without any direct funding, human resources or administrative support.

While brilliant work is being done in the equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, space by all the groups represented here today and Government funding has been critical in implementing many of these programmes, there is nothing currently allocated directly to LGBTQ+ in sport. Why is this the case? What needs to be done for this to change? If we are serious about improving the mental and physical wellbeing of LGBTQ+ people, then we must fund organisations like Sporting Pride, that are having a positive impact on the ground. For this work to continue, we need to direct funding. We are asking today for funds in budget 2024 to be allocated to organisations like ours that are focused on the inclusion of LGBTQ+ people in sport.

According to international research, 50% of participants in sport have been personally targeted and 80% have witnessed or experienced homophobia in sport. Sporting Pride can help change this statistic and one solution is the LGBTQ+ sport clubs. Over the past six years, the number of clubs in Ireland by more than 100% and we print and distribute 5,000 copies of an annual leaflet promoting them. These clubs are safe, welcoming places to play sport, thus building a more active and healthy community.

From my own personal experience, I know that the LGBTQ+ world can be an intimidating and lonely place if one knows no one else in it. Sport is a fantastic way to bring people with similar interests and backgrounds together. These LGBTQ+ sports clubs should be celebrated for the vital role they play in the inclusion of LGBTQ+ community in Irish sport.

To conclude, Sporting Pride are experts in LGBTQ+ inclusion and we have the passion and desire to drive change in Irish sport. We can help the committee accomplish the targets set out in the national LGBTQ+ inclusion strategy and help Sport Ireland achieve its diversity and inclusion policy goals. If we are officially recognised and receive funding and administrative support, we will be able to collaborate with more sports bodies and help achieve our vision for Ireland to be the most inclusive sports community in the world.

Ms Sarah Carney

I work with the UNESCO chair in inclusive sport at Munster Technological University, MTU, and I represent the TRUST Ireland partnership. We are a group promoting sports as it should be; fun, fair, clean, safe and accessible to all. Funded by the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, TRUST Ireland aims to socialise sport, human rights and the sustainable development goals in Ireland. We are a partnership of the UNESCO chair MTU, our colleagues in SARI, Federation of Irish Sport, GAA, CSO and Sport Ireland. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is an advisory partner.

We aim to create a society where everyone is included and can participate in physical education, sport, fitness and recreation, regardless of who they are. We know that these activities have the potential to trigger social change while empowering people with flourishing health and wellbeing. In this project we speak about human rights in and through sport. Everyone has the right to participate in sport. While sport can be a source of good, there is also the potential for human rights abuses in sport and rights need to be protected in sport.

Finally, sport also has the potential to contribute to other human rights, such as health, employment, non-discrimination and education. These are human rights through sport.

We have a broad understanding of sport that includes physical play, recreation, and organised, casual, competitive, traditional sports and games. We understand inclusion as going beyond getting participants onto the playing ground or into the gym to take part in an activity. It is also a process that helps to overcome barriers limiting the presence, participation and achievement of all in sport. This means inclusion in social activities around sport, including coaching and training, leadership, co-design of educational materials, employment, and access to stadia and facilities. This fuller understanding of inclusion in sport has potential knock-on effects for inclusion across society, with greater engagement and visibility of marginalised groups.

To create conditions necessary to see this, we held workshops to discuss current access with groups who have traditionally been underrepresented in Irish sport, including migrants, refugees and asylum seekers; Travellers; members of the LGBTI+ community; women and girls; people with disabilities; and a workshop specifically with people with intellectual disabilities. Further workshops were held with local sports partnerships and national governing bodies to discuss their work on human rights and equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, in sport, and for them to react to the issues raised by rights holders. A summary of findings was presented to the sports leadership group in June 2022. A final report is now being finalised for public launch. A summary of rights-holder views is provided in the briefing document to the committee.

From this research, the TRUST Ireland partnership has developed the following recommendations: align the definition of sport embraced in the national sport strategy and Irish Sports Council Act to policy-oriented priorities reflecting the expansive definition of sport; expand the understanding of what inclusion in sport means; prioritise "furthest behind first" in all sports-related planning and all other policy areas that use sport and ensure rights-based approaches in line with public sector duty; establish participatory approaches to cross-sector sports policy and planning at all levels and functions of sport and diversify the stakeholders involved in these policy processes; prioritise capacity building and workforce development to deliver a skilled workforce for equality and social outcome-based approaches to sports delivery; increase engagement with volunteers on inclusion and participation in sport; expand cross-sectoral funding access and allocations to support the elimination of barriers for marginalised and underserved groups; invest in a public awareness and education campaign to increase public awareness of the value and role of sport in society; and invest in robust, outcome-oriented disaggregated data to inform evidence-based policymaking, advocacy and impact assessment across multiple policies in Ireland that focus on or produce sport.

I look forward to hearing members' thoughts on these recommendations and our research. Thank you.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Carney. I will quickly move to my colleagues to whom the speaking rota has been circulated. I remind them each member has six minutes for questions and answers; it is up to them what way they wish to use that time.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. A case could be made to have a full Oireachtas session with each group because this topic is so important. We will fire on anyway. If I cut across anybody when they are answering, it is because I will be caught for time. I will try not to be rude if I can.

My first question is for Ms Browne and is around accessibility and inclusion. I welcome her and thank her for her statement. I will give a shout-out to a fantastic event that will happen in Kinsale this weekend. It is an ongoing event, Sailability, which involves access on the water for wheelchair users and people with physical disabilities. It has been a game-changer. All too few of these types of initiatives are going on in the country, although they are growing. I will bring it down to funding for sporting organisations. An effort was made during the most recent sports capital grant allocation to ensure that funding was allocated to those groups that could prove they were being inclusive. That included gender, race and people with physical or intellectual disabilities. That allocation was in 2021. Are we seeing the fruits of that? Are we seeing improvements within sporting organisation facilities as regards accessibility? I understand we have a long way to go. Is that philosophy, supported by the then Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, making a difference?

Ms Jacqui Browne

I thank the Deputy for his question and kind remarks. The result of the funding is that we have seen pockets of good change and good practice. The problem with all these things is they are not mainstream enough and are not across the board. One thing that concerns us very much is there tends to be a lot of special projects, for example, by having a group of disabled people for basketball one night or sailing at the weekend. That is not mainstream inclusion. The Deputy used the example of Sailability. I am very familiar with Sailability and have been involved with it myself. I sailed around the world. I know John Twomey and have been at the parasailing championships a few times, with Dr. Austin O'Carroll and others. As it happens, that is one of my personal interests.

In any event, we are seeing pockets of good practice. The problem is it is not systemic. We need a systemic approach. We are still not seeing enough inclusion of neurodivergent people. We have loads of gay and lesbian members, along with disabled people. Like every single group who has spoken, we have intersectional identities within our membership. That needs to be appreciated. We have made an approach but we have not gone far enough.

An Cathaoirleach

I will pause Ms Browne there because Deputy O'Sullivan wants to get in for more questions.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I really appreciate that. I understand the approach has to be more systemic instead of these pockets of improvements.

I will move on to Ms Moustafa. Much of her opening statement focused on the issue of racism. We were lucky to have Mia Galligan and Mya Doocey from Navan in earlier. They addressed the very interesting and important topic of the dropout rates of women, in particular, because of menstruation. The figures in their results are staggering. On people who are experiencing racism in sport, are we noticing a significant dropout rate and people opting not to continue with sports because of experiencing racism?

Ms Amina Moustafa

It also depends on what spaces the Deputy is referring to. Sport-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That was going to be my follow-up question. Are there certain sports that are more inclusive than others?

Ms Amina Moustafa

It depends on what sport you are referring to. I will just give the case of myself and my lived experience of the sport. There was a time I was involved in sport when, as I am from a Muslim background, I was wearing the hijab. The example I gave was that the FIFA hijab ban was preventing Muslim women from playing sport and playing football at an elite level. If we are speaking about sport on an elite level, a policy was in place that prevented Muslim women from participating, which has a trickle-down effect to those at a grassroots level. "If you cannot see her, you cannot be her", is a saying that often goes around. The lack of representation in sport leads to a limited number of people going into a particular space, when they do not see people like them in that space.

SARI's work is at community level. We are not waiting for people to join our club or programmes. We do a lot of outreach looking at diverse representation and encouraging particular diverse communities to participate in sport. There is no monitoring or evaluation of diverse representation in sport in Irish Sports Monitor reports. There is monitoring of the participation patterns and percentages as regards gender and disability but there is no monitoring and evaluation of those from different backgrounds participating in sport.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I have one more question, with the Chair's permission. I thank Ms Moustafa for that feedback. It is so important. We need to stamp out racism. We are seeing the proliferation of racism being discussed, especially within soccer and football. It seems to be on the rise. To come back to Ms Moustafa's reference to education in her statement, we need to tackle it there first and foremost, inform and educate and, hopefully, we will see improvements in that.

I thank Ms Moustafa for the feedback.

My last question is for Mr. Walsh. I thank the witnesses for coming today. Does he feel we have enough gay role models within the sporting world who are willing to put their head above the parapet and be leaders? I could be wrong, but it appears to me there is a resistance to coming out in many elite sports. I think of the world of soccer and rugby. There must be far more gay men and women participating than would appear to be the case. Is there a resistance to coming out when people are involved in elite sports? Do we need a role model to lead the way and make people more comfortable in being who they are, whatever their sexual orientation?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

Visibility is the point we are talking about here. It is a similar situation with a lot of the community groups. It is so important for young people coming through to have visible role models.

In Ireland, male team sports is probably lagging behind female team sports. The international tendency in the LGBT community is that females are attracted to team sports while male LGBT people are more attracted to male sports. There are female dressing rooms and female sports are a lot more inclusive to people. There are a lot more LGBT people at elite level in Ireland on the female side than on the male side. There is probably a research element there on what male sport can learn from female sport in their dressing room environment, how they treat their colleagues and how they create a safe, welcoming place for people. The toxic masculinity that goes on in male dressing rooms is obviously preventing people coming out at a higher level on the male team sports side. Changing the culture at a lower level and researching what male sport can learn from female sport in the team environment is an important part of that. We would welcome research on that from an Irish perspective.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank Mr. Walsh. I am way over time. I appreciate the answers.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I welcome all the groups They are all very important topics for sport and diversity. I have experience of SARI and the tremendous work it does. When Mr. McCue was around, he engaged with Gaza Action Ireland a good few years ago. It was very encouraging. The kids came over and played football all around Ireland. SARI was central in ensuring that happened. It was a great initiative. It built relationships and took down barriers. That is what sport is capable of.

Reference was made to increased resources. If the witnesses were to get increased resources, what actions would they prioritise to expand and develop their programmes and activities?

Ms Amina Moustafa

I will answer and then I will hand over to Mr. Drury to see if he wants to add anything. The topic of today’s hearing is "inclusion in sport" but what SARI focuses on is inclusion through sport. We use sport to address racism and discrimination and to educate through the medium of sport. Sport is a powerful learning tool. We can utilise sport to educate people on the values that are so important to Irish society. SARI continues to implement anti-discrimination workshops across the island of Ireland. We are going into schools. We have more than 3,300 primary schools in Ireland and, so far, we have been in more than 200 schools delivering educational workshops through sport. We talk about what it feels like to experience discrimination. It is very much unpicking some of the complexities to racism and discrimination and about bringing communities together to better understand each other and building relationships.

Mr. Fintan Drury

From the board's perspective, what we are working on right now is trying to increase that from 200 to 2,000. The young women who gave evidence to the committee earlier represent the cohort that SARI needs to be speaking with, or in fact a much younger cohort than the two schoolgirls who spoke to the committee. Nationally, we need to attack the issue of inclusion through sport, although not exclusively. Sport is one means by which it can be attacked at grassroots level and at schools level. It is not just football. We had people giving courses yesterday in two Gaelic clubs in Leitrim. That is what we are happy to do across all sports, using the different federations and using the education system, but we need resources. We do not believe the resources should only come from the public sector. We will get private sector support provided the private sector sees that the public sector is saying this is really important and this is fundamental to the community we wish to build in order that future generations can live happily and peacefully.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I agree. The Department of Justice and the Department of Health talk about immigration and people coming to Ireland. Almost everybody coming here plays sport. It is a real way to access them. If we are looking for projects or plans to develop integration, football is one of the most popular sports in the world. Most people are aware of it or play it, so it is a door we can open to new communities. Hockey and cricket are equally important in terms of opening doors to integrating new communities. If the Department of Justice and the public sector want to develop these plans, they do not have to look any further than the work SARI does. It is important that SARI's work is funded and developed. As Ms Browne states, integration needs to be built into the infrastructure of the State. I thank the witnesses for their response.

Will Mr. Walsh give a critique of Senator Warfield's goalkeeping skills? There are question marks over his goalkeeping abilities. Apart from that-----

Senator Fintan Warfield

I am going to record this.

Mr. Aidan Walsh

He is a very good goalie. I was a defender and I played football in front of him for many years.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Did nervousness spread throughout the defence?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

It probably came more so from me.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Mr. Walsh mentioned about male sport in particular. I cannot figure out what is happening in men's sport in comparison with women's sport. There is no openly gay man playing in the premier division in the League of Ireland. There may be one openly gay man in the first division. The contrast is stark when we look at women's football.

It was mentioned in the research from the GPA that, in 2022, it was encouraging that 99% of elite Gaelic players would accept a team mate coming out. We have to question the research because the facts seem to be very different and contradict the research.

To come back to my kids, I always think young people are much more progressive, but then we saw what happened to the young gay man in Navan. That assault was carried out by young men. What can we do to change what is happening in male sport to ensure the attitude is history?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

Similar to what a lot of my colleagues have said, education is a huge part of it. We can let people know that people are different and work on the inclusion side of it. We would love support. We are a volunteer body and we do everything from the funding we have generated ourselves.

We would love to be running educational programmes for every sports club in the country about what makes LGBT people unique. A large part of our remit is supporting the 40 LGBT sports clubs throughout the country. They are safe and welcoming places for LGBT people to come together and meet others like them in order to develop and grow. Education is a large part of it. Sporting Pride can be a solution to this if we can be given funding to allow us to educate sports clubs, sports bodies and local sports partnerships about what is unique about the LGBT experience in sport. Education is a key part of how we develop this, how to change it at a youth level and how to develop it in sports clubs throughout the country.

An Cathaoirleach

I call on Senator Warfield, not to speak about his football skills but to ask any question he may have of our witnesses.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I also thank the witnesses. I must declare an interest. My experience of playing with an LGBT sports club as opposed to an ordinary club is that we are free to be ourselves. We are more likely to go to the clubs and bars we normally go to with our team mates rather than having separate nights out. In any city around the world we can probably find an LGBT sports team so it helps people to root themselves in a new place very quickly. There is almost a touch of utopia about our sports teams.

My experience of playing in an FAI-accredited league, namely, the United Churches Football League, is that it forces the rest of the league to do a bit better because other teams are conscious that they are playing against an LGBT sports team and homophobia is not accepted. It also breaks down the stereotype to the effect that LGBT people do not play sports. There is an issue that LGBT people drop out of sports and the witnesses have spoken about personal experience. The witnesses have called for funding for LGBT sports. Is there a model that Sport Ireland uses that could be replicated? What would the money be used for? Would it be used for LGBT sports or the wider sports community?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

A model we see working very well in Sport Ireland is the women in sport model, which was launched six or seven years ago. It is an internal department in Sport Ireland headed up by a high-profile person and given funding to get more women involved in sport. How it has grown over the past six or seven years is fantastic with regard to participation levels and visibility at board level. It has grown legs beyond where it started six or seven years ago. We see this model as the one Sport Ireland should use for all minority groups. The model that should be copied and pasted at proportionate level for the various minority groups is that Sport Ireland has an internal department that looks after minority groups. The question that should be asked is why this is not being done.

Funding for diversity and inclusion in sport is delegated to the national governing bodies and sports partnerships to get involved without Sport Ireland being centrally involved. Is it possible for Sport Ireland to copy and paste the women in sport minority group model from six or seven years ago and reuse it? We do not have an answer to that question, but what we see as the best use of public funding is to take a programme that has done well and has proven to be successful for a minority group and use it for other minority groups to get more people involved in sport.

Ms Karina Murray

I echo that. When I was growing up, I did not see many women in sport. I was always watching hurling, soccer and other sports. Since Sport Ireland introduced its model, there have been numerous campaigns and many sports are getting more promotion. I will be going to Australia to watch the women in the World Cup. I know a lot of work has been done by the players themselves in terms of activism. I guarantee that without the work that Sport Ireland has done to promote women in sport we would not be going to our first major tournament. This model needs to be replicated for other communities. I know women are not a minority, but they are a minority in sport. It has been very successful. Why can it not be used for us?

Mr. Fintan Drury

In the view of Sport Against Racism Ireland it is about more than money. In terms of money and public resources, however, part of the issue is where do we go. Do we go to the Department with responsibility for sport? Do we go to Sport Ireland? Do we go to Sport Ireland and then to Department? All of the organisations before the committee and many more want the same thing. We want to work together. We do not want to compete against each other. There should be a central hub such as with women in sport. It does not matter where it is but it would seem logical that it would be in Sport Ireland. The money should go there and it should be specific to the issue of inclusion. The money should be specifically for breaking down the elements in our society that need to be changed to reflect the society we have today and the society in which we want our children and, in my case grandchildren, to grow up, which is an inclusive and happy society. This is what sport can do.

To make this happen from the State's point of view there needs to be absolute clarity. It is probably not about more money and even if it is, in relative terms, the amount of money is very small. The potential for that money if it is well spent by people who know what they are doing, working collaboratively to change the negatives that are there and build on the positives that are there in even greater volume, and the capacity for that money to change, improve, strengthen and make our society richer in future is phenomenal. It is about coherence.

Ms Karina Murray

The way we understand how diversity and inclusion funding is done now is that it goes to national governing bodies and they decide what work they want to do on it. If they receive €100,000 and decide they do not want to do anything about LGBTQ+ promotion in sport they are not held accountable for it. There are no targets that they have to meet. They can decide to spend it all in other areas, which are just as important. As has been stated, we all want to work together. We do not necessarily have an input. The funding goes to governing bodies and sports partnerships and they decide what inclusion work they want to do. Some governing bodies are great and others have no commitment to work with our community. The inclusion money does not necessarily help our community unless a governing body decides it wants to do it that way.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank all of our witnesses for their testimony and for the great work they do. I ask them to forgive me as I will need to leave shortly. The reason I am looking at the screen is because I am meant to be speaking in the Seanad on the hate crime and hate speech legislation. This relates to the question I want to ask. The witnesses may be aware that the committee produced a report on abuse of those involved in sport, including players, referees and officials. Much of the abuse was homophobic and racist in nature. We made a number of recommendations. I am open to any of the witnesses speaking about how prevalent they feel this is in sport. What actions do they think might be appropriate to stamp it out?

Ms Amina Moustafa

On the ground, it is persistent in sport. Our programme runs regular local football sessions, primarily in inner-city Dublin. Recently, we had a racist sign put in our football training grounds despite the work we have been doing for 26 years in this area to promote social inclusion.

The example of the qualifying matches shows it is also present at elite sport level, so it is across the board.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

What specific actions should be taken from a policy perspective?

Ms Amina Moustafa

We need to move away from a reactive response to these incidents and take a more proactive approach. I am repeating some of what we said about education, that rather than waiting for something to happen and figuring out what to do about it, we must embed values of inclusion early in the minds of young people and promote a culture and ethos that celebrates and promotes diversity of our community. If we wait for and focus on sanctions, what we will do in stadiums, how to respond and on the reaction, we lose out on the learning we can embed in young people early.

An Cathaoirleach

Does anyone else wish to come in on that?

Ms Sarah Carney

I echo the point on education. As the Senator will be aware, we are based in MTU. We are also increasingly looking at education of the sports sector. Graduates from our university and other graduates will go into the workforce in the sports sector. For example, we have a good programme on adapted physical activity, but inclusion as a value is not embedded throughout higher education sports learning. If inclusive practice and how to tackle discrimination in sport were to become a core module or component, whatever field of sport graduates go on to work in would see a massive change within a few years because we would have a workforce that is equipped to handle these issues.

Mr. Aidan Walsh

As well as education, the visibility piece and promoting people who are members of one community or another, or of minority groups is important. Dublin Pride is on this weekend. We have a #LetsGetVisible campaign with Sport Ireland to encourage clubs and sporting organisations to get involved. Those types of visibility projects can also help with this.

Mr. Fintan Drury

The preventative approach is right, but we also need to use people, such as a famous black footballer who is still an iconic figure to this day and a Gaelic hurling goalkeeper in a different arena. Some of these iconic people need to be used - I am certain they would be happy to be used - to say it is not cool to think I am a great hero of Irish sport but to be against women wearing hijabs playing football or women who are not Irish being trained in football in our city centres. We also need to be creative in sending hard messages about things not being acceptable. There must also be a hard edge to dealing with the issue as it stands today.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am conscious that I have to run. I can empathise with Mr. Walsh's story. In tackling discrimination, it is important that we do not forget rural areas. The focus cannot only be on urban centres.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Browne indicated she wants to say something.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I have received a message. I will lose my speaking slot so I apologise.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator can leave and Ms Browne can still make her comments.

Ms Jacqui Browne

It is important that we are not left out of the discussion. Education and the whole issue of funding are important but one thing that concerns me across society, not only in sport, is that it is always up to us to do the running all the time and seek funding to deliver stuff. We need mainstream society to act. We need the public sector duty to be implemented as a course of right by all sporting bodies. There is an expectation for them to undertake this work, rather than us having to get little bits of funding to do little pockets of training. I get more cynical, the older I get. I have been in this arena for more than 40 years. I am blue in the face from education. We need to not only educate, but to plan, deliver and do. There are loads of wonderful courses. People come along to them and say they were great and that they enjoyed being informed for the two hours, but what is coming out of it? Funding is a sop for some agencies to say they funded a group or organisation so they have dealt with that issue. That is not inclusion. Can I give an opportunity to either Dr. Conama or Mr. Maguire to talk about the specific example of the exclusion of deaf people in sport?

Dr. John Bosco Conama

I would have liked to have responded to Senator Byrne, but he had to leave. I would have liked to have given him some information on hate speech and hate crime before he left. However, Ms Browne's question was about the exclusion of deaf people in sport. At the moment, we have some issues around deaf people being included in mainstream sport. Deaf people are involved in sport. There is a deaf Olympics. We have participants on teams in different sports in the deaf community but with more children going into mainstream education, it is hard to find out where they are in order to get them involved in sports. Mr. Maguire has been trying to do that but there is a challenge with general data protection regulation, GDPR, restrictions. We do not know what schools these deaf children are attending and are dependent on getting access to parents in order to find out where the children are. That is a big challenge for us in the deaf community. Our topic today is broad. I have listened and agreed with everything I heard. It was powerful. The concerns of the deaf community would require a more in-depth discussion. I agree that many of the issues are to do with attitudes on a basic level about inclusion in sport.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. Conama for his contribution. It is appreciated.

I will move on to Senator Cassells who has some questions for our witnesses.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome all the witnesses and thank them for their engagement today. I will ask a question of each group. I will start with Sport Against Racism. This comes in the week that an Irish under-21 team walked off the field on Monday night when playing against Kuwait because one of our substitutes was subjected to racist remarks by a Kuwaiti player. This follows the racist abuse in March of our under-15 team. The witnesses talked about graffiti on signage. It is a bad state of affairs when international sports players still think it is socially acceptable - I despair. Equally, last weekend we had seismic moment, which touches on Sport Against Racism's living together through football programme, which is especially active in the North, in breaking down sectarianism. The former Irish rugby captain spoke about the fact that when he brought his then 11 year old son to play Gaelic football in Derry, his son asked him why. When his son was 18 he was out one night with his mates. They went to a restaurant and he was trying to get home. The next morning he told his father, "I now know why you told me to play Gaelic football Dad".

He told him how the previous night he could have gone home with the Gaelic football lads or the rugby boys. Willie asked if there was any difference and he said there was not. Willie told him that is what sport is, and even more importantly, that is what life is. It was a big thing in Ireland this week that Willie Anderson came out and said that and I want to commend him on doing that podcast on BBC last weekend.

We saw the unfortunate incidents this week. Mr. Drury touched on the issue of it not being about more money but on the pillar sports in particular, rather being reactive, and we have seen racist incidents in Wexford GAA and on the international stage with Paris Saint-Germain Football Club, what can we do at home, on a proactive basis, to counteract that?

Ms Amina Moustafa

Speaking about Northern Ireland, there is a great sports club up there called PeacePlayers Northern Ireland that promotes an ethos similar to the one that we live through our programme. It has the motto that kids who can play together can learn to live together. It involves bringing together communities and learning about each other through sport. One of the powerful things about sport is that it is a universal language. Oftentimes sport is seen as apolitical and as one of those safe topics you can speak about over the dinner table. This is important, particularly when you are talking about issues that are quite sensitive to people. From my experience, when I was heavily involved in the Hijabs & Hat-Tricks programme, a lot of the players who were on that programme had experienced racism and discrimination in other aspects of their lives, whether that be through education or employment. It was by playing sport and building relationships that trust was built among the players and that created a space where they could talk about racism and discrimination outside of the sport setting. That was done in a way that was not intimidating or that made them feel like they had to bring up personal lived experience, but it was done after building a relationship up based off trust, we can start to have these conversations. That example of coming together and playing in an informal way is the beginning of bridging gaps and divides between communities.

Mr. Fintan Drury

I said it is not about money but I wanted to say it is not only about money. If, this time next year or at this time in two years' time, SARI is still only able to reach 200 schools in a calendar or school year, that is not a failure of SARI but of the State to not put resources into an organisation like SARI and the other organisations here to effect change. I know this is repetitive but it is about getting into the hearts and minds of young kids.

Senator Shane Cassells

Absolutely. I am going to jump to Mr. Maguire and Dr. Conama. Dr. Conama was talking about attitudes and the requirement for a change of attitude. In their submission, which got down to practicalities, Dr. Conama and Mr. Maguire said that it is crucial to emphasise the need for accessible sporting facilities that cater to the specific needs of deaf athletes. We are going to be launching the sports capital grants again soon, where many tens of millions of euro will be allocated to sporting facilities in Ireland. From the sports clubs that the Disabled Persons Organisations Network would look at, what is the need for those clubs that are accessing State funding to be more responsive to what the Disabled Persons Organisations Network has had in its submission? Is it facing that challenge as it is? What needs to happen from these sports clubs and should it be tied in as a prerequisite if they are receiving funding? Has the Disabled Persons Organisations Network said this to the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media?

Dr. John Bosco Conama

We have not yet said this to the Minister but I would be happy to mention that in future submissions, and to mention disability-proofing, for example. More work needs to be done on this but I will pick one example. There could be a local sports centre or club involved in the likes of the women in sports programme, which we mentioned before, and there is a need to develop those kind of sports centres at a local level. As Ms Browne mentioned before, the responsibility is continuously put on us to look for this kind of funding and to reach out. Mr. Maguire and I, for example, are members of our mainstream golf club. Our golf clubs are quite open-minded and it is in that way that we link in with local sports clubs and change attitudes. I cannot speak for other people and their experiences but that would be our lived experience. There needs to be a clear link between the DPOs and policies in making sure it is followed through on because it needs to be clear. As we have mentioned before in our submissions, we have a right to enjoy sport at every level, including local, national and international, and article 30 of the UNCRPD mentions that.

Senator Shane Cassells

As part of our report, when we finish it, we should articulate what has been set out in part of the submission to the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on that link between sports funding and the clear need for facilities to be accessible for the needs of the deaf community.

Dr. John Bosco Conama

And for the disabled community as well.

Senator Shane Cassells

Yes. I will go to Mr. Walsh, who spoke about the Lets Get Visible campaign. I will be parochial and I want to commend David Gough, who is a friend a mine and who is extremely visible in that respect. I mention the work the GPA is doing this week with SuperValu in the Rainbow Laces campaign as well. Does Mr. Walsh have his rainbow laces with him?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

I have a version of them here.

Senator Shane Cassells

Fantastic. I want to commend SuperValu and the GPA on the work they are doing in making sure there is a circulation of the Rainbow Laces campaign. I commend David and Hannah Looney, the Cork footballer, as well. We touched on some of the examples in visibility. It took until 2009 for Dónal Óg Cusack to be the first openly gay GAA player and it took until 2009 for the first openly gay rugby player in the world, Gareth Thomas, to come out. We still have a situation in soccer where there is no openly gay player in the English Premier League and across all four of the top divisions in England, just young Jake Daniels from Blackpool Football Club has come out openly as gay. He is the only such player since Justin Fashanu. On the body of work ahead and the attitude changing that is needed, is Mr. Walsh hopeful or despondent this week in his views?

Mr. Aidan Walsh

A lot of the media gets fixated on the Premier League in the UK in particular and on soccer. I think about what we can do to change things in Ireland and there are issues in our sports and in what we can do at different levels to make sure the pathway is there and that visibility is there. It is a personal decision if people want to come out. We must ask why it is important and in lots of ways we must ask who cares about people's sexuality. We must also ask why that is such a big deal for people. For that young person growing up to have the visibility to show that you have an opportunity and to show that sport is a welcoming space, it is important to do that. It is hopeful that, as was mentioned earlier, there is a lot of money in the area of diversity, and we are calling for that to be adequately resourced to different minority groups so that there are pathways and educational opportunities for people who are LGBT to see people who are visible at elite level, and to make it comfortable then to come out at a different level, especially in the Irish context.

Senator Shane Cassells

I will move to TRUST Ireland and Ms Carney, and the submission she put forward. In particular I mention the topic of sports and women that she touched on, and the participation of women and girls in sport and physical activity being at significantly lower rates than men and boys. It was done at the outset but I also welcome our witnesses who were at the previous session, Ms Mia Galligan and Ms Mya Doocey, two young students from Navan who are sitting in the Public Gallery and who presented to us just before Ms Carney came, on the issue of female participation in sport.

Ms Carney touched on the lack of female coaches, instructors and leaders in sport relative to the general population. I am a member of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association development committee and it has touched on the fact that they cannot get leaders themselves.

There are still male coaches. One of the points they make is about seeing those pathways. It is frustrating that a ladies' association is struggling with promotion. On TRUST Ireland's work, Ms Carney touched on the prioritisation of male and men's teams access to facilities at prime times. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, who sent a big warning to the main sports in this country that if they do not get their houses in order in respect of that point of prioritisation of access to pitches, they will not get any money. He has been very strong on that and I commend him on it. I have seen female teams across all sports being basically sent to a back training facility and it is fundamentally wrong. No player in Ireland should be subjected to that. On that point, together, all those issues led to what Ms Carney said is lower participation. Is she hopeful that that is changing? Can she see a pathway for that change coming in Ireland?

Ms Sarah Carney

I thank the Senator for the question. It is slowly changing. My colleagues have touched on this already. There is a growing recognition that this is unacceptable and has been going on for decades now, with women's sport being deprioritised. The pace of change is where questions arise. Several things need to be tackled. There is an overall culture which sees men's sport as more valuable, more competitive and better than women's sports. That needs to be tackled. Colleagues mentioned having women's soccer on television and prioritising sports. There is a growing audience for this. There are steps that can be taken to address the visibility of women's sport and give it the same media attention and television run-time. This shows it is an equally valuable sport.

It has to trickle down to local levels as well. One will not get the same level of players or have the same number of coaches if women and girls are not encouraged from the very start to participate at an equal level, even at school level. It still happens with girls sitting on the sidelines and watching while the boys do physical education. If it still happens at that level, who will go on to be coaches? How girls are treated and viewed in sport needs to be tackled right from the beginning.

Senator Shane Cassells

Ms Carney touched on the Irish women's soccer team, which we are looking forward to kicking off next month. There will be a lot of hoopla around that, with politicians wanting to get their pictures taken and all of that. The Minister of State responsible for sport was in my home town of Navan last week. We visited a number of soccer clubs which are looking for money for development. He asked them all about their participation levels in girls' soccer and their access to those pitches. He said not to talk to him if they cannot answer those. That stick approach is probably what is needed with regard to culture change. For everyone here today, the main theme is culture change too. I would be interested in whether the stick approach is something that people favour. I thank witnesses for their engagement today. I thank the Chair.

Mr. Aidan Walsh

Encouraging that move on women in sport in Sport Ireland also applies at board level. Sport in Ireland has traditionally been run by middle-aged straight white men. The more diversity we can get at board and decision-making level, with more people in the group of different backgrounds making decisions, the more of a knock-on effect it will have at local and community level. Encouraging more women to get involved at board level, national governing body level and local sports partnership level is important too.

Senator Shane Cassells

That was touched on too. There is a governance issue in the country that needs to change. Unfortunately, frustratingly, speaking to some of the few high-level women administrators in the country, there are not enough and, second, it comes back to making sure there is a pathway for that change to happen. It is painstakingly slow at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank my colleagues and especially our witnesses today, as well as our witnesses from our first session. Mia and Mya made a great contribution to this whole topic. Everything has been pretty well teased out by my colleagues. I ask witnesses if they have any concluding remarks to our discussion on this as we wrap up our session. I might go to Ms Browne first.

Ms Jacqui Browne

I thank everyone and all the Cathaoirleach's colleagues for helpful and insightful questions. It is interesting, which I am not one bit surprised about, that all of the witnesses here today have so much more in common than we do not. I would like to highlight one thing. I am conscious that we have had much conversation about football, soccer and very mainstream sports. I raise the level of access for everyone, including disabled people, to ordinary, everyday participation in sport. We have the greenways of Ireland, cycle tracks and swimming. It is summertime. People are out walking, hiking and mountaineering. I would hate to have a focus on just GAA, soccer or rugby, if that makes sense. I challenge the committee to make sure that we are really inclusive of this range of sports and activities.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Browne. I thank her for participating. Do any witnesses want to make concluding remarks? Do they feel we have teased it out as far as we need to?

Ms Karina Murray

I want to come back to something Mr. Drury said earlier about how we are not all in competition with each other. There are definitely people in our community, as the first speaker said, who are LGBTQ+, people with disabilities and people of different races. This joined-up approach is probably needed. We are all fighting for the same funding. We meet with Sport Ireland about the importance of inclusion, diversity and so on. We do not want to compete. There are definitely many intersectional experiences. We would like to see a different approach to how the money for the variety of sports is allocated and how different organisations get support from them.

Mr. Fintan Drury

Apropos of that point and reflecting what Ms Browne said in her concluding remarks, ultimately, the Minister of State who was lauded by the Senator five minutes ago, is in control of this to an extent, one would assume. It is about cash, but it is cash for communities. Sport has a huge impact in communities. Members, as public representatives, have a capacity to influence that money, or a portion of it, is used for the issue of inclusion using sport. There are probably three other "Cs" that could be retained. One is coherence. There needs to be coherence to what is being done by all of the sporting organisations. That needs to be about consistency of whatever is agreed across the board nationally at Government level about using sport to promote inclusivity. It is a commitment. We need commitment to do it. We need cash. We need coherence about how we are going to do it and consistency about how it is then done. That is how the culture element is then changed over time. That is what all of us are saying in different ways and with different emphases.

Ms Sarah Carney

To echo those points, when we talk about inclusion in sport, there are specific needs of specific groups. Overall, inclusion can be addressed by a change in culture. While there is specific work to do in the space, a culture of inclusion as a starting point is vitally important. I echo a few points that Ms Browne made on human rights. It is important to take this human rights-based approach and to consider the public sector duty regarding sports. When sporting bodies are in receipt of public funds, they have a duty to protect and promote human rights. Sport is recognised in the UN treaties that Ireland has ratified as a human right. It takes this beyond just being something that we could do or that would be nice to do. It is a human rights issue and should be considered as such.

Dr. John Bosco Conama

I agree with my colleagues. I have learned a lot in the past hour and a half, and could learn a lot more, about all the changes. We have so much in common. There is a common thread among all of us regarding our basic human rights. That is the important point and it needs much more discussion. I hope this will be the start of more to come.

Senator Shane Cassells

I might make a brief point in response to the point Mr. Drury made regarding cash and the impact on communities. I fully agree. I have been involved in sport all my life, first as a kid and then professionally as a sports journalist. That is why I was pleased to see last year, for almost the first time ever, that this was taken seriously, when funding for sports clubs increased from €40 million to €150 million in one budget. It is equally important, however, that there be a caveat in respect of that funding, which is the point I was trying to make earlier. It is not a blank cheque. When the witnesses talk about inclusivity and how the funding is used, that should relate to gender equality, which was mentioned earlier, disability equality and what Mr. Maguire and Dr. Conama asked for, namely, basic respect for human rights within sporting clubs. Moreover, as I said earlier to the officials appearing before the committee, the criteria for the Department has to change as well. The days of blank cheques are over.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I acknowledge also the withdrawal of the Irish under-21 football team from the game against Kuwait in Austria. That was an important form of action.

An Cathaoirleach

We would all concur with that.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee and sharing their experiences, ideas and observations, all of which will be taken on board. As I said to Mia and Mya, who participated in our first session, we thank them all very much. The joint committee will next meet on Wednesday, 28 June, to continue its scrutiny of the topic of inclusion in sport.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.42 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 June 2023.