Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 2023

Future of Sports Broadcasting: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

I warmly welcome our guests who are with us this afternoon. We have been slightly delayed in starting and I ask our guests to bear with us. I welcome Mr. Declan McBennett, group head of sports in RTÉ. It is nice to see him. From TG4, I welcome Mr. Alan Esslemont, director general, and Ms Mary-Ellen Ní Chualáin, commissioning manager. From Sky Ireland, I welcome Mr. Mark Carpenter, director of regulatory and corporate affairs. From the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, I welcome Mr. John Purcell, chairman. From Virgin Media Ireland, I welcome Mr. Paul Farrell, managing director, and Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin, assistant managing director.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. I will have to guillotine the comments of our guests if they go beyond that time limit. As our guests are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its web page. There will then be questions from committee members.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations with regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that witnesses make in their evidence to other persons. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation witnesses make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say in the meeting. However, they are expected to not abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as chair, to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Where witnesses give evidence remotely from outside the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given and that they should respect directions by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person's good name or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I am delighted to welcome our guests. I ask Mr. McBennett to take the floor.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I am grateful for the invitation. Sport is and always has been an integral part of our content and output as the national broadcaster. Sport is part of the Irish DNA and RTÉ has always been the mirror that reflects the success and disappointment that inevitably comes with competition. The role of RTÉ Sport has always been, and continues to be, to take that individual feeling and transform it to a collective national narrative. We broadcast across radio, television and digital moments that unite a nation and reflect club, county, province and country.

In 2022, 15 of the top 20 most watched programmes in Ireland were live sporting events. Twelve of those 15 were broadcast on RTÉ. This alone is indicative of how important sport is not just to broadcasters but to the audience we serve.

Sports rights, which are the central tenet of any broadcaster, have expanded, fragmented and, in many cases, grown to exorbitant financial levels. Sporting organisations and federations now face the unenviable task of striking a balance between revenue and reach, maximising their commercial return for investment while growing their respective sports through engagement and participation. The nature of this difficulty is best understood if the sporting landscape is split into three parts. Those are the big four - GAA, soccer, rugby and racing - which dominate the sporting landscape; the Olympics-cycle sports, which fight for prominence, often through peaks and troughs; and minority sports, which often struggle for both commercial return and audience engagement. In 2019, RTÉ broadcast 653 hours of televised sport. In 2020, this figure dipped to 435 hours due to the global pandemic and the suspension of sporting activity. In 2021, the number of hours grew to 782. It grew again in 2022 to 859 hours and is likely to exceed 1,000 hours in 2023. We have never broadcast as much free-to-air sport. We are broadcasting more GAA, soccer, rugby, Olympics sports and, critically, women's sport than ever. Our flagship radio programmes, "Saturday Sport" and "Sunday Sport", are a core part of our output, together with key sports bulletins on the "Six One News" and "Morning Ireland", while RTÉ Sport online has grown from 312 million page views in 2017 to 457 million page views in 2022.

One of the greatest areas of growth has been in the area of women’s sport. Our camogie coverage has increased. We enjoyed World Cup and Olympic Games journeys with our international hockey team and we will now see our rugby 7s team compete at the Olympic Games in Paris. First up, however, will be the Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand. In 2019, RTÉ Sport, in conjunction with TG4, crossed the Rubicon in sports coverage for women when every game of the World Cup was broadcast. That was an example of two public service broadcasters coming together to ensure true equality of coverage.

RTÉ does not, and should not, have a monopoly on sports coverage. We share GAA rights with TG4 and BBC Northern Ireland. We share rugby rights with Virgin Media for the Six Nations Championship and the upcoming Men's Rugby World Cup, and we share the United Rugby Championship with TG4 and BBC Northern Ireland.

In the age in which we live, it is neither realistic nor feasible that all sport can be or will be free to air. The growth of over-the-top, OTT, services or streaming is a reality in global sport. Ireland, however small, cannot escape this reality and Covid-19 changed the landscape with regard to streaming. Every county and every code adapted to this new reality. RTÉ Sport was the catalyst for the birth of WATCHLOI, which allowed League of Ireland fans to access games in 2020. Some 166 soccer matches were covered at the time.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. McBennett to wrap up. I apologise.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I will come back in.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to give everybody a chance to make an opening statement.

Mr. Declan McBennett

That is no problem.

An Cathaoirleach

The committee will take the remainder of Mr. McBennett's opening statement as read; it has been circulated to members and will be published on the committee web page. I call Ms Ní Chualáin from TG4.

Ms Mary Ellen Ní Chualáin

Tá béim ar leith i straitéis spóirt TG4 ar thacú le spórt pobail agus le spórt mionlaigh. Clúdaíonn muid spóirt Éireannacha go forleathan, ar nós cluichí Gaelacha, peil na mban, rugbaí cúige, cispheil na hÉireann, sacar na mban agus go leor eile, mar atá leagtha amach sa pháipéar faisnéise a chuir muid ar fáil don choiste. Tá ról an-tábhachtach ag TG4 i gcraoltóireacht phoiblí na hÉireann. Tá áit againn i gcroílár shaol na hÉireann agus cuireann muid spórt saor in aisce go haer ar fáil don oiread daoine agus gur féidir linn. Tá TG4 thar a bheith bródúil as a bheith chun tosaigh i gcraoladh spóirt na mban in Éirinn agus cinntíonn muid go bhfuil spórt na mban mar thosaíocht, agus curtha ar fáil saor go haer don lucht féachana. Tá TG4 ag déanamh urraíochta agus ag craoladh peil na mban ó 2001 i leith, blianta fada sular aithin aon chraoltóir eile an tábhacht a bhain le spórt ban a léiriú.

Tá TG4 an-bhuíoch den Rialtas seo agus den Aire, an Teachta Catherine Martin, as TG4 a neartú le trí bhuiséad anuas. Mar sin féin, tá TG4 fós i bhfad chun deiridh ar chraoltóireacht mionteangacha Eorpacha eile ó thaobh maoinithe agus scála de. Sa ghearrthéarma, caithfidh TG4 a bheith ag feidhmiú ar a laghad ag leibhéal S4C sa Bhreatain Bheag ó thaobh acmhainní agus maoinithe de. Tugann craoladh beo spóirt stádas don Ghaeilge. Is é an comhthéacs náisiúnta is mó ina gcloiseann daoine Gaeilge in Éirinn ná tríd na cuir i láthair a dhéanann TG4 ar chluichí LGFA agus GAA. Creideann muid go mbeadh bunaitheoirí an Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, CLG, an-bhródúil as sin. Tá ról lárnach ag clúdach spóirt eile freisin maidir le híomhá na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn. Creideann muid gur féidir le TG4 ról níos láidre a bheith aige in éiceachóras na meán seirbhíse poiblí in Éirinn agus é ag cur chun cinn an spóirt agus ag cur chun cinn na Gaeilge ag an am céanna.

Is craoltóir foilsitheoir é TG4 agus spreag ár n-infheistíocht i spórt fás i roinnt comhlachtaí léiriúcháin spóirt suntasacha i réigiúin na hÉireann; Nemeton ina measc, a bhfuil a tionchar ar athbheochan Ghaeltacht Phort Láirge aitheanta go forleathan anois. Ó tháinig muid ar an aer in 1996, bíonn TG4 ag obair go dlúth le Cónaidhm Spóirt na hÉireann agus le comhlachtaí rialaithe náisiúnta spóirt agus tá muid an-bhródúil gur ar ár gceannaire spóirt, Rónán Ó Coisdealbha, a bhronn an Federation of Irish Sport - Association of Sports Journalists Ireland Gradam Jimmy Magee i mbliana. Mar gheall ar shocruithe teaghlaigh, tá Rónán as baile faoi láthair agus ní raibh sé in ann freastal ar an ócáid seo inniu.

An Cathaoirleach

Go raibh míle maith agat. Well done. Mr. Carpenter is next.

Dr. Mark Carpenter

I will abbreviate in the interests of time. Sky is the leading TV platform in Ireland. It is watched by over 2 million viewers and delivers more than 500 channels, including the Irish public service channels such as those provided by my fellow attendees, to our customers across the country. Sky has been offering TV services to Irish customers since the early 1990s and we opened our Irish headquarters in Dublin in 2013. We now employ approximately 1,000 staff across a variety of roles, including in our retail stores up and down the country.

Sky is synonymous with sports, and sports broadcasting is at the heart of what Sky has been known for over the past three decades. We have invested billions in sport and this, in turn, has been used to further develop grassroots sport and facilities, including in Ireland. Sky has always been an excellent partner for sports rights holders. With Sky, rights holders know their sport will benefit from partnering with a company that brings world-class production values, outstanding marketing and a commitment to delivering high-quality content to our customers. The quality of this partnership can be seen by our ability to maintain long-term relationships with rights holders. These deals allow our Irish customers access to the best sporting content and commentary from around the world.

Closer to home, we had a long-term partnership with the GAA that began in 2014 and that ran up until the end of last season. We also get behind women’s sport in a major way. This can be seen, for example, in our coverage of the Women’s Super League, WSL, where 12 Irish internationals currently ply their trade. The WSL gets the full Sky Sports treatment, with a best-in-class on- and off-screen production team, lengthy build-ups and reaction to all live matches and plenty of behind the scenes footage. Our ability to cross-promote sport to sport also allows us to promote the WSL during a Premier League match, further driving viewing and engagement. In Ireland, we of course further support women’s football through our role as the primary partner of the women’s national team and I am sure the committee will join me in wishing the team the very best of luck in their campaign which kicks off in eight days’ time with a match against Australia.

Our commitment to televised sport also allows us to do things that simply are not possible for others. Over 11 separate, dedicated Sky Sports channels we provide in-depth analysis and detailed coverage at a level of breadth and depth other broadcasters simply would not have the scheduling space to match. We have also continued to innovate as technology has changed the way people view sport. This has included providing more flexibility to people, for example, by allowing them to dip in and out of our services through purchasing month or day passes from NOW TV rather than requiring a 12-month contract that may not suit everyone.

When we look at the future of sports broadcasting, one concern we would highlight is the continuing challenge posed by piracy. In this context, we would greatly welcome an increased focus by Government and law enforcement to emphasise the illegality of such services and the impact they have on legitimate, taxpaying businesses. One practical step that could be take in this regard would be for the Garda to be provided with additional resources so it is better placed to enforce the law and take action against individuals who are selling illegal devices or subscriptions and profiting from this activity. It is also worth noting sports piracy is often a gateway to piracy more generally and has a knock-on negative impact to the audiovisual and creative industries as a whole, in Ireland and across the world. I welcome questions from the committee on any and all of the above and look forward to the discussion.

Mr. John Purcell

Sports programming is a huge part of the programme schedules of our member stations, which cover literally thousands of events at all levels of Irish sport every year in every county. Sport on our stations is unique. It reaches the parts other broadcasters do not or cannot reach. While sport is described as only a game, there can be no question but that sport provides important public service content for Irish audiences. We believe it deserves more attention at broadcasting policy level and so it is positive this meeting in is taking place.

In the report of the Future of Media Commission, which was published this time last year, specific recommendations on sport are quite limited. The role of radio in sports broadcasting is not extensively covered and the unique role of independent radio in the sports broadcasting ecosystem is barely dealt with at all. It is important to ensure sports broadcasting on independent radio is not forgotten in the understandable concern about national sports coverage and access of audiences to sport on television. The best pictures are on radio. While the Future of Media Commission has recommended a range of schemes to support media in general, there are no schemes specifically for sports broadcasting. Instead, it is envisaged sport may be covered under the news scheme along with European and international affairs, environment, social affairs, health, transport, agriculture, rural affairs, economics and culture. This needs to change because sports broadcasting is an area that is changing rapidly. We believe it requires a separate scheme.

Our members are market-leading companies, but they are also predominantly small- and medium-sized enterprises. They are regulated and operate under licence. Increasingly, they have to compete with all sorts of unregulated competitors in the area of sport. There is no immediate crisis, but there is no reason fro complacency. A situation could quickly emerge where it may not be viable to continue to provide what people currently take for granted. Now is the time to see what frameworks and supports, financial and otherwise, can be developed to ensure sports broadcasting can continue. Over the last few weeks, a new debate has emerged on the future of how public service broadcasting can be supported. We welcome this and believe it should include sport as well as all other areas. On the broad policy of sport, the Future of Media Commission noted Sport Ireland enjoys a good relationship with RTÉ. In his comments earlier, Mr. Paul McDermott, of Sport Ireland only mentioned viewers. Radio needs to be included as well. I emphasise policy and planning for sports broadcasting must involve radio as well and should not be confined to the national level or just to RTÉ; it must include everyone.

Mr. Paul Farrell

Virgin Media Television operates as a commercial public service broadcaster fully funded by advertising and commercial revenues. All our investment decisions are made based on generating a commercial return to support the sustainability of our business and enable continued investment in our platforms, infrastructure and in the development of our people. The future of sports broadcasting in Ireland is something that will continue to develop and evolve in line with the commercial drivers of rights holders and the changing dynamics of sports consumption and engagement by sports fans. The growth in streaming, both paid for and free, is something we feel will continue to evolve and offers a lot of positive opportunities for sports fans and rights holders to generate incremental revenues while also giving more access for fans of all sports that generally would not be available on free to air or pay or premium sports providers.

The most popular sporting events continue to attract large audiences to free-to-air broadcasting, as evidenced by this year’s huge numbers for the Ireland versus England Six Nations Championship game, which attracted over 1 million viewers. Our current partnership with RTÉ for the Six Nations Championship and the upcoming Rugby World Cup is something I expect to be a sign of how the future of broadcasting will evolve. With increasing volumes of games and events across all major sports, the opportunity for greater collaboration, not just among traditional broadcasters but also with rights holders, streamers and new or existing platforms, seems to be an inevitable part of the future direction of sports broadcasting.

The ongoing review of sporting events designated for free-to-air broadcast will also have to take account of the changes to sporting calendars and competitions. There is also a requirement to understand some of the broader benefits of making sports events available on free-to-air broadcasting. Sporting bodies need to generate revenues to support their leagues, players and administrators. Increasingly, this will mean more pressure to have a pay component within their offering.

In tandem with this, making sports accessible and visible to the broader population is important to ensure the long-term growth of participation within the sports at grassroots levels. There is evidence in some other jurisdictions that certain sports can see a decline in participation levels over prolonged periods when they are not available on any free-to-air platform.

In summary, the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland will be driven by greater collaboration between rights holders, traditional broadcasters and pay and premium sports providers to find a model that works for all stakeholders. The designation of key events for free-to-air broadcasting will ultimately need to evolve to have a broader understanding of how events can be made accessible across free, pay and premium models.

Deputy Chris Andrews

How much has RTÉ invested in GAAGO?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No, I am not at liberty to say. I am happy to provide that information at a later stage but that is not something we would put in the public domain now.

Deputy Chris Andrews

What does Mr. McBennett mean by "later stage?"

Mr. Declan McBennett

I will provide it to the committee as soon as we can.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Given that people pay a licence fee already, is it fair to say that RTÉ is using GAAGO to double-charge the public for broadcasting which should be available as a result of paying a licence fee?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No, it is not. I understand that argument. I have heard it. It is one of the three charges that is currently laid against RTÉ and its participation with GAAGO. I do not think that any of the three charges stand up to rigorous scrutiny, but I will happily go through them.

Regarding the licence fee, in 2018, RTÉ broadcast 40 GAA matches live. We now do 68. The figure for soccer was 111. That has now increased to 169. For rugby, it was 13 matches. It is now 57. The figure for Irish horse racing was 25 days of coverage. It is now 32. That is a total of 326 live sporting events. If we add into that European rugby, world rowing, swimming-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is that not what we are paying the licence for? Why do we have to double-pay it when we watch GAAGO?

Mr. Declan McBennett

As I said, that is 326. If the other 23 days and the 58 are added it comes to a total of 407 sporting events. That is at a cost of 39 cent per event or 90 cent per day, just for sport, before any of the licence fee payers get near news and current affairs, the Maurice McCabe or Seán Quinn documentaries, RTÉ Radio One or anything else-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

Would RTÉ consider replicating the GAAGO model for other sports?

Mr. Declan McBennett

We started WatchLOI. The initiative came from two conversations involving Mr. Peter McKenna, when we were about to lay off staff in GAAGO because of Covid. Mr. Niall Quinn was the acting CEO of the FAI at the time. The FAI could not broadcast games. The initiative came from RTÉ sport. I brought it to my superiors in RTÉ. It was then brought to the GAA and that is how 166 games went out on WatchLOI which was, as many Deputies will know, the forerunner to LOITV. We have done it with soccer and the FAI has now decided to do it for itself.

Deputy Chris Andrews

It says in the document presented by Mr. McBennett that RTÉ plans to have 1,000 hours of sport. RTÉ will show 44 hours of League of Ireland coverage out of that 1,000 hours. That is pretty abysmal. RTÉ shows more foreign football than League of Ireland football. Surely the remit of a public service broadcaster is to promote our domestic game and our international teams first. Why not leave the Champions League to pay-per-view channels and allow the public to decide? Would RTÉ not consider further investment in LOITV and leaving the foreign matches to other broadcasters?

Mr. Declan McBennett

We have increased our League of Ireland coverage in recent years. We are the only broadcaster that has done so. I think Mr. Jonathan Hill said earlier that the FAI would welcome a second broadcaster to come in there. In recent years we have done the women's national team, the under-21s and the under-17s. Nobody does more soccer than we do. Through my department in RTÉ Sport, we have paid for the production of women's international games in Ukraine, Montenegro and Greece because none of those countries would actually broadcast a match involving the same women's national team that will go proudly to Australia and New Zealand in a couple of weeks. That is what we do. That is the public service element of what we do.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is 44 hours out of 1,000 not pretty abysmal?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Not when it is considered as part of 169 soccer games that we do.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I am asking about the League of Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach

We must move on.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the witnesses for attending and for the work they do. Tá fáilte romhaibh. Mr. Purcell referred to the new media fund that has been established. Is the IBI suggesting that we should set up a separate sports fund, separate from the media fund?

Mr. John Purcell

I looked at the report by the Future of Media Commission and it said that sport should be included under the news fund. I think that sport deserves a separate fund.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

We are looking at the future of sports broadcasting which fits into an increasingly diverse landscape. I am now as likely to watch a game or follow something on my phone as on television, although I would not do so during a committee meeting. We are going to see big changes. We are going to see new players and digital players, apart from the witnesses' organisations. How do the witnesses envisage that landscape developing over the next five years?

Mar a dúirt Mary Ellen Ní Chualáin, TG4 is a publisher-broadcaster and perhaps different from RTÉ in that regard. Are broadcasters in a better position when they commission the independent sector to provide sports or is it better for companies to do so themselves?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Our model is that of a publisher-broadcaster. It means that the money invested in TG4 is directed by a core group of 100 people who design the schedule and commission, etc. The money goes out into the sector. The extra money we have had over the last three years means we have been able to grow things. There is a strong relationship between ladies football and TG4. I have always made the link between the fact that society, the State and the media have given the message to female athletes that their sport is second rate and the fact that, in the same way, society, the State and the media have given the message to Irish speakers that their language is second rate. If we were able to grow, I think there is space on TG4 to grow free-to-air sport.

Mr. Paul Farrell

I saw the Senator's piece on the approach to the publisher-broadcaster model from an RTÉ point of view. Generally, from a broadcaster point of view, our model is very much commercially driven. We know roughly what value we will get, based on audience and advertising revenue, and that is what we are prepared to pay for content. Generally, that works out reasonably well. The under-20s world cup has worked really well for us because nobody else was in the market for it and we got good value.

I think the future is about more fragmentation. From a rights holder point of view, I think there will be a hybrid where they manage their own revenues as they do through players. Basketball Ireland and many of the smaller sports do that really well. Broadcasters will have a role to play in that but it will be within commercial confines or what public service funding can drive within that.

Then there will be a hybrid of pay-per-view, premium and streamers who will find new ways to generate revenue. Ultimately, the rights holders will have to decide what the value is - whether they retain the overall envelope they get to support the business or whether the model is going to change as they require more influence or control.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. There has been a lot of controversy and unease about GAAGO. I want to ask Mr. McBennett a question about it being made free to care-giving establishments, hospitals and care homes. Obviously not every older person lives in a care home or a care-giving establishment. We have free public transport for people over a certain age. Has any consideration been given to expanding the access to GAAGO to older persons?

Mr. Declan McBennett

The honest answer at this stage is "No". There will be a review of GAAGO at the end of the year. I mentioned earlier that three charges have been laid against RTÉ and GAAGO that I do not think are right. I am clear there is one problem regarding GAAGO and four issues that it must address. The problem that GAAGO has and will continue to have is one of access. This goes directly to the heart of the point made by the Senator. People who have good broadband have a good experience of GAAGO, while those who do not have a poor experience. The question of access is the key critical question for GAAGO in future. I respectfully suggest this is not an issue directly for RTÉ, the GAA or GAAGO. It is a wider societal issue concerning government and the roll-out of the national broadband policy, etc.

To respond directly to the Senator's question as to whether there have been considerations in this regard, the answer is "No". As Mr. Ryan indicated, we are listening and open to hearing what suggestions are made in respect of future accessibility. The three key measures we are taking are making access free to care homes, offering a cheap and competitive rate of €150 for GAA clubs and offering commercial outlets a rate of €300. This approach was designed to try to assist those who may not have access to the quality of broadband the Senator spoke of.

Senator Marie Sherlock

For some of us, the access issue calls into question the very existence of GAAGO.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I understand.

Senator Marie Sherlock

That is an issue for another day. There are several references to women's sport in the submission from RTÉ, but we have not heard anything about the plans in this regard. I heard what was said about the Women's World Cup next week, equality of treatment and camogie. Does the RTÉ sports department have plans to improve or expand the coverage of women's sport, especially in those sports we see less of? Is there an initiative in RTÉ dedicated to exploring how we can expand coverage of women's sport?

Mr. Declan McBennett

There is not directly an initiative but, as our record over recent years shows, we have increased coverage of camogie and covered the previous Women's World Cup in conjunction with TG4. We are about to do the second Women's World Cup. We are also bidding for the Women's Euro 2025 championships in Switzerland. We have continued to cover the existing gender-neutral or both gender sports in respect of rowing, gymnastics, swimming, etc. These are the sports I mentioned in respect of the Olympic cycle and the minority sports that are increasingly fighting hard for coverage. While much of the sporting landscape and the ongoing debate have been focused on the four main sports, it is the other sports that are, arguably, in greater need of visibility.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Coverage of League of Ireland matches is patchy. Games are shown on television, including Virgin Media, on some Fridays but not on others. I am picking up on the point made by Deputy Andrews. Can that coverage be improved?

Mr. Declan McBennett

There has been an improvement and there will continue to be. As Mr. Hill said, the FAI's ideal model is to have two broadcasters. There is a difference in how the broadcasters on this island operate. We put boots on the ground. We go to these venues and cover the games. Virgin Media has a different option whereby it takes in the model from LOITV and rebroadcasts the coverage. Everybody would like to see more League of Ireland matches on television, but the league is competing in a very competitive environment.

An Cathaoirleach

We are out of time.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Can I just finish on the issue of-----

An Cathaoirleach

No. I am sorry. If there is a chance at the end, I will let the Senator back in. I want to give everyone an opportunity first.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. Did Mr. McBennett watch the first session of the meeting?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes. I was sitting in the Public Gallery, so I saw it all.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Okay. He understood the issues we are trying to come to terms with here.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes, and I heard the Deputy's comments concerning the Cork-Tipperary game.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Exactly. I was referring mainly to those in rural areas where the connectivity is not good enough. There is also a certain demographic of people who may not be comfortable with the technology.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Understood.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Mr. McBennett will appreciate the issues here. Is there ever a situation where there is just a clash of fixtures, within the GAA fixtures, for example, and there are just not enough TV stations to broadcast all of them?

Mr. Declan McBennett

It has increasingly become an issue. We bend over backwards in this regard. To give an example, a few weekends ago the Tailteann Cup semi-finals and the Galway-Mayo match were on and TG4 was broadcasting the Armagh-Mayo fixture at the same time. This is where the visibility of the women's game sometimes gets lost because everything is closed in. To return to the point I made earlier, the problem for GAAGO is one of access and we have openly acknowledged this. There are four issues around GAAGO. The GAA and RTÉ are aligned on two of these, while there is a degree of separation in respect of the other two. One of those four issues is the condensed nature of the GAA calendar.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Yes.

Mr. Declan McBennett

We have now gone from having a situation whereby there were 60 games in the football championship last year to 92 games this year. There are 132 games in total taking place between the Liam MacCarthy and Sam Maguire competitions. Condense these games into a period of time and it becomes impossible.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That comes back to my point. We have RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2, TG4 and GAAGO. Has RTÉ considered the possibility of using the RTÉ News Now channel to broadcast matches?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes. We have used that channel for clashes on an ongoing basis. We were looking at putting the Galway-Mayo match on the news channel but we decided to put it on RTÉ 1. That is given the number of games we have. With respect, we are limited in the number of games we can broadcast. We are contractually obliged to do 31 games in the Liam MacCarthy and Sam Maguire competitions. If the number were 40, then we would need to find the outlets for those games. If the number were 90 games, then we would need to find the outlet for that number of games. If we are confined to covering 31 games, we can largely handle that number between RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I will move on to the witnesses from TG4. These big games would give the channel and the Irish language great exposure. This is fantastic. Would the station welcome the opportunity to broadcast more of the big clashes in football and hurling?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

We would really welcome it. We are strong on broadcasting national league matches but we would welcome being able to cover games from the championship competitions as well. What is stopping us here is that we do not have the funding to do it. Addressing that is a matter that lies with this House.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Funding is the issue, rather than the arrangement between RTÉ and GAAGO.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Yes. There is a bit of work to be done in respect of the adequacy of funding in the context of section 124 of the Broadcasting Act 2009. In section 118, our remit is almost exactly the same as section 114, which is concerned with RTÉ. When I came into this job our turnover was less than one tenth that of RTÉ.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is a funding issue but TG4 would welcome more matches.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Absolutely.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Does the Tour de France get good viewer figures?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Yes. I love it on TG4.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I do too.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

It is fantastic. Since the days of Roche and Kelly, cycling has become a bit niche, but this is a service we are extremely proud of providing.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is a perfect example of how niche and less-well-known sports can explode and get large numbers viewing them. This is the best exposure I get to the Irish language. My last question-----

An Cathaoirleach

No. I am sorry but we are out of time.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Briefly, it was stated that the Six Nations championship is a perfect example of where Virgin Media works in co-ordination with RTÉ in terms of broadcasting. Would Virgin Media like to do the same in terms of GAA games?

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. Farrell to answer in a word.

Mr. Paul Farrell

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the witnesses for joining us. They are all very welcome. Mr. McBennett is a co-director of GAAGO. Who are the other directors from RTÉ and what are their roles?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Until recently, Dee Forbes, the former director general, was also a director. Peter McKenna, from Croke Park, is a director. Paul Naughton, who is one of the financial controllers in RTÉ, is a director. Colin Morgan represents the GAA as a director.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The directors are Mr. McBennett, Peter McKenna, Paul Naughton and Colin Morgan.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What role does Colin Morgan play?

Mr. Declan McBennett

We meet quarterly and review the operation of GAAGO.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay.

Mr. Declan McBennett

There is a management team and then there is a board.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. McBennett previously mentioned charges he did not accept regarding GAAGO. Will he outline what those are?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes. The first concerns double taxation. In other words, it is being said that people are paying for the TV licence and therefore should not have to pay for games. The second charge is that RTÉ and the GAA are in some way complicit in putting particular games behind the paywall as a means of driving subscription, while the third is that there is a direct conflict of interest in terms of my role, or the roles, within RTÉ and GAAGO. Those are the three issues.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes, and we will tease them out. I have accused RTÉ of acting in cartel-like manner with the GAA.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Correct.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I stand over that accusation and await responses to it. Are the top GAA clashes not being cherry-picked to drive subscriptions and profit?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No, absolutely not. I will explain the process of picking games. RTÉ is contracted to cover 31 games. Of those, 16 are predetermined. There are two finals, four semi-finals, two quarter-finals, two other quarter-finals and six provincial finals. That gives us discretion on 15 matches out of 116. We pick those games based on the first round of fixtures. GAAGO then has its fixtures.

Deputy Alan Dillon

RTÉ tends to avoid simultaneous sporting broadcasts on two of the main channels.

Is that correct?

Mr. Declan McBennett

In general yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Have there been instances in which RTÉ has done that?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes. I cited one of them a couple of minutes ago regarding the Tailteann Cup and a match involving the Deputy's county.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Exceptions have been made.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On what grounds does RTÉ make exceptions?

Mr. Declan McBennett

When there are exceptional circumstances, for example, simultaneous kick offs in the World Cup when you would have a massive-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

We are specifically on the GAA. Galway and Mayo were pulled out of a bowl in that regard. Is that exceptional?

Mr. Declan McBennett

That was an exception.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why would the Munster championship not be exceptional? Why would Kerry and Tyrone not be exceptional?

Mr. Declan McBennett

The Munster championship is laid out. There are 12 fixtures within the Munster championships. We picked our number of fixtures. The remaining fixtures are available to GAAGO and we go through the season as such, so all 12 games in the Munster senior hurling championship were covered by RTÉ or via GAAGO. Regarding Kerry-Tyrone, RTÉ has the ability to request games. We do not have the-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why-----

Mr. Declan McBennett

I beg the Deputy's indulgence. This is really important. RTÉ can request games. However, as indicated, by Tom Ryan earlier, the people who set the games are the central competitions control committee, CCCC. RTÉ requested the two games. The two games we requested were Dublin-Mayo and Kerry-Tyrone. Kerry-Tyrone was fixed for the Saturday by the CCCC, an independent body, and, therefore, was broadcast on GAAGO. We had requested Kerry-Tyrone.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why can RTÉ not broadcast that game on a Saturday in exceptional circumstances?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Because the two games that were assigned to us that weekend were the Sunday games.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The games were in Croke Park.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Absolutely. We asked for Dublin-Mayo and we got Dublin-Mayo. Therefore, we get the game that goes along with Dublin-Mayo. That could have been Armagh-Monaghan - my own two counties in terms of birth and where I live - or it could have been Derry-Cork. It ended up being Derry-Cork. It is a CCCC decision.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. McBennett's role within RTÉ is his audience - the licence fee payer - so how is RTÉ protecting the licence fee payer in this instance?

Mr. Declan McBennett

By moving 653 hours to 1,000 hours of live sport over the course of the past four years. I stand over what we have done in RTÉ Sport.

Deputy Alan Dillon

But the consequences are that Mr. McBennett is driving profit in respect of the GAA.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I am not. I do not accept that point.

An Cathaoirleach

I am afraid we have to move on. Deputy Fitzpatrick, the floor is yours.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

As I said earlier, I am a sports person. Sport plays a very large and important in all our lives. During Covid, people really got into sports. People love looking at live games and international games. I have a problem regarding free to view. I am not picking on Sky. The reason I am focusing on Sky is that it provides a lot of coverage. I love looking at golf but the only place I can see it is on Sky for which I must pay. RTÉ gets the licence fee and commercial advertising revenue. Sky gets advertising revenue and subscriptions. What is the breakdown? To what degree does it depend on subscriptions? To be honest, people just cannot afford to pay it but they want to see it because Sky provides fantastic coverage. What is the breakdown? Is it 50:50? I am sure the advertising money must be very high.

I come from Louth where they are trying to build a stadium but they do not have the money. I will not ask anybody if they want to sponsor a stadium. We are trying very hard. We had a problem with Mr. McBennett this year.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Correct.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Last year, RTÉ had no problem televising games in Ardee, County Louth but this year, Mr. McBennett said the facilities were not suitable. Everybody is trying very hard to improve facilities. I come from Dundalk, where people are trying very hard to improve the stadium. Facilities are very important when it comes to getting a better picture of the standard of the game but things are pretty tight at the moment. Is there any way that Sky can reduce its prices to help people see more games? GAAGO is fantastic. I think €75 per season is very good and €12 for a one-off game is wrong. As clubs and counties are all struggling, what can broadcasters do help the viewers of this country? We were very disappointed and very let down and never got a proper response from Mr. McBennett and RTÉ regarding what happened with the live game not being televised. We were told the facilities were very poor. Comments were made that evening by certain people in RTÉ that facilities in Louth were not good. It is not our fault we cannot afford a stadium but we have a pitch and facilities. The club put a big effort into the past number of seasons but RTÉ came in and with one swipe, it was gone. I ask all the representatives to reply to these questions.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I will happily take the first part of the Deputy's questions. I agree. The comment that was made was incorrect and wrong and we apologise for it. I wrote to Ardee and the county board committee about it. It was a simple misspeak. No slight was intended but I understand why a slight was taken. I am well aware of what is being done in respect of facilities in Louth. It is a tremendous undertaking and I know they have raised an enormous amount of money so people there are to be credited for that. As for Louth, I apologised via email on behalf of RTÉ and I apologised to the county board. It was a misspeak, which sometimes happens. It was not deliberate.

Dr. Mark Carpenter

I do not have the exact breakdown of subscription revenue versus advertising revenue but it is fair to say that we would take more in subscription revenue than advertising revenue when we look at the overall piece. We are constantly conscious of pricing and making it as competitive as possible because we want to attract as many customers as possible. Ultimately, when you are acquiring the level of rights we acquire and with the level of production we have across 11 channels, it is expensive but if you look at the amount of live sport we show and how much viewers engage with that sport and look at it on a per-hour basis, we think we provide good value.

The Deputy made some points about facilities. When we look at the billions we have invested in sport globally, including in Ireland, there is a direct link between the amount of money we invest in sport and the capacity of organisations to make those investments in facilities to improve those facilities, so that is an important point in this debate.

Deputy Imelda Munster

During the first session, I raised an issue with the commercial director of the GAA. Virgin Media issued a statement to say that it was never approached regarding air time when the Sky contract was terminated. The GAA disputed that and said there were negotiations but there was no agreement. Does Mr. Farrell wish to respond to that?

Mr. Paul Farrell

We did have conversations from the end of 2021 to early or mid-2022. On 23 June, our head of sport got a call from his counterpart in the GAA to say it was nearing completion and to ask whether we had anything to submit by way of a bid. On 27 June, our head of sport responded and said we had looked for a model more around a shared broadcasting model because that was the biggest cost for us and to say that we would not be making a submission based on that but that if anything changed in the future, we would be happy to have a conversation again. On 23 October, it was announced that the Sky deal was not progressing and we issued a statement subsequent to that saying we were surprised, so I think it is a timing thing. I am not saying Peter McKenna said anything that was not accurate but our statement was made after the announcement regarding the Sky deal. We did have conversations up to until the middle of June. We moved away then. On 27 June, we asked the GAA to come back and talk to us that if anything changed. After the announcement regarding the Sky deal, nobody was consulted and the GAAGO deal was announced. We were surprised by that for two years. One is because RTÉ and the GAA are partners in that and we have seen a lot of evidence over the past few weeks where commercial influence is probably not the best focus for RTÉ when it is spending public money. Second, I do not think it was made clear in all RTÉ correspondence around that time that it was a joint venture and that RTÉ had skin in that game. That is why we issued a statement.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I just wanted to give Mr. Farrell the opportunity to clarify that. I raised with Tom Ryan and the commercial director of the GAA the matter of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, having first given clearance for GAAGO on the basis that it involved subscriptions for people living outside Ireland - the diaspora. Under the new system, games are being put behind a paywall that are games on the island of Ireland. I asked whether the CCPC given clearance for that and they said they had not got clearance.

Is Mr. McBennett telling us that the new system whereby RTÉ is putting games that are played within Ireland behind a paywall is being operated without clearance from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No, my understanding of it is that the CCPC has been kept up to date on everything that has been done by GAAGO. As Mr. Ryan indicated earlier, we started it during Covid-19 and it continued when people could not attend games. Some 168 games have been shown by GAAGO. At each stage of the process, the CCPC has been updated.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It has been updated, but the CCPC initially gave clearance on the basis of it being for the diaspora.

Mr. Declan McBennett

That is correct.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The commercial director of the GAA said that clearance had not been received in respect of the system RTÉ is operating. He said there are negotiations.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes, that is right. The process, as I understand it, is ongoing.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Factually, as it is stands at the minute, RTÉ is operating that system without clearance from the CCPC.

Mr. Declan McBennett

My understanding is that clearance has not been formalised with regard to the CCPC.

Deputy Imelda Munster

So RTÉ is operating without clearance. It is easy to say "Yes".

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes. Equally, however, the CCPC has been kept up to date with every aspect of what GAAGO is doing.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But the RTÉ has not got clearance. That is my question.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Not that I am aware of.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is operating without clearance.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Correct.

Senator Shane Cassells

I will start with Dr. Carpenter, who spoke about the need for action by the Government on privacy. One issue on which the Government is acting is gambling. I asked representatives from the sports organisations who were before the committee about the statement by the Irish Bookmakers Association that the gambling Bill will stop live Premier League games being shown by Sky in Ireland. Does Dr. Carpenter believe this to be the case or is it kite flying by the bookies?

Dr. Mark Carpenter

I have not seen that exact statement. I am conscious that the Gambling Regulation Bill is currently working its way through the Oireachtas.

Senator Shane Cassells

From Sky's reading of it, would the Bill prevent Premier League matches from being shown?

Dr. Mark Carpenter

I do not think that is the policy intent.

Senator Shane Cassells

Dr. Carpenter does not think that is the policy. That is interesting because Sky Sports is currently lobbying Deputies and Senators looking for the Bill to be watered down for Sky Sports Racing. The charge made by Sky is that it will hit the bookies' advertising revenue on that channel. It is asking for an exemption that would prevent the legislation being applied to Sky Sports Racing channel only. It is interesting that Dr. Carpenter does not have a view on how it would work for the Premier League, but Sky Sports is in here lobbying for the Bill to be watered down just in the case of Sky Sports Racing.

Dr. Mark Carpenter

There are two different things here. The first specific question was regarding Premier League football. My understanding is that the policy intent around Premier League football is that if there are gambling logos on jerseys or in the background, whether this is covered by the Bill and whether it would prevent the transmission of that programming. Although the Bill is still to run through, my understanding is that the policy intent is not to prevent the transmission of that programming.

In regard to racing specifically, Sky operates a joint venture. It is a slightly independent entity - Sky is a shareholder in it - called Sky Sports Racing, which broadcasts horse racing. My understanding is that Sky Sports Racing and other channels that broadcast horse racing are calling for a specific exemption for advertising for horse racing because of the fact - as, I think, we would all accept - that betting and horse racing are reasonably inextricably linked. From their perspective in terms of the viability of operating a horse racing channel-----

Senator Shane Cassells

I have to move on, but I will definitely revisit this matter.

On the issue relating to Virgin Media, Mr. Ryan had said that the issue production. Does Mr. Farrell accept that the key difference between that deal was that they were asking about the production aspect from Virgin Media?

Mr. Paul Farrell

Not particularly because it did not come around after that. In the initial conversation-----

Senator Shane Cassells

When it ceased in June originally, was the key difference that Virgin Media Ireland was not able to go with what the GAA was looking for?

Mr. Paul Farrell

We talked about a number of packs. We talked about trying to do more of the leagues earlier in the year because that would suit our model better than the summer. The advertising market in the summer is not as strong. We talked about a number of options within the packs and we also talked about the option to take in a feed from a third-party producer-broadcaster interim model. It was part of it, but we did not go into much more detail beyond that. My surprise was that nothing came after that.

Senator Shane Cassells

In the context of how the deal was constructed, Mr. Ryan referred to a rights fee and a profit share and indicated that 10% to 15% of the GAA revenue was now derived from GAAGO. What is RTÉ's percentage take from that profit share?

Mr. Declan McBennett

I do not know. I do know that the money that comes to GAAGO goes directly back into paying for the national football and hurling leagues and the club championship. That is the methodology and that is why RTÉ is essentially part of GAAGO. We have spent millions in taxpayers' money paying for the championship. The money that is-----

Senator Shane Cassells

RTÉ is using its take from the profits. It is nearly kept on the sports books per se. The profit derived from RTÉ from this venture is now being used to fund the broadcasting costs relating to, for example, the National Football League. Is that what Mr. McBennett is trying to say?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Not the broadcasting costs but the broadcasting rights fee with regard to the national-----

Senator Shane Cassells

RTÉ is effectively refunding it to the GAA.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Correct. We pay millions for the championship, which is publicly known. If we make money from GAAGO, that money comes in to RTÉ and goes directly back out from it in order that we can put more games on free to air. The first game of the year was Deputy Dillon's county playing Galway in the National Football League. That is the game we used. The GAA got money from-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Effectively, RTÉ is making no profit on this venture whatsoever.

Mr. Declan McBennett

None. The money comes in and allows us to put more free-to-air sport on RTÉ. In the context of the league competitions, one of the criticisms was that we did not have a calendar footprint. In other words,we used to show up in May and disappear in September. That was a perfectly legitimate criticism of RTÉ a number of years ago. What we now do is broadcast from January to November. We do the league, the championship and the club competitions. That has to be paid for. As the Senator well knows, we are living in an environment where licence fee and commercial income are going down. The events of past three weeks are likely to exacerbate those trends. If we want to pay for sport, which is vastly expensive as we have heard from Mr. Farrell in terms of putting boots on the ground, which is what RTÉ does, we have to find a methodology to pay for that. What we do, therefore, is take the money and broadcast more free-to-air sport.

Senator Shane Cassells

I have a final point on the selection process.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time. He has ten seconds.

Senator Shane Cassells

Obviously, this was sparked by one high-profile hurling match. Is it a case of what RTÉ is contracted to do being the issue? RTÉ is contracted to cover poor events TV-wise, such as maybe a poor Connacht final or a poor Munster final. Let us call a spade a spade. I am the most loyal GAA man ever but I turn both matches off. Would RTÉ prefer to be released from that contractual aspect in order that it would be able to give the punters what they want and not show the finals it is contracted to cover.

Mr. Declan McBennett

On one level, I would love to say "Yes" to that. On another level, it is not fair because------

Senator Shane Cassells

I agree.

Mr. Declan McBennett

-----Deputies Fitzpatrick's or Senator Dooley's counties would not have featured. The provincial finals are not only part of the contract; however long they last, there is an onus on RTÉ, as the national broadcaster, to cover them. If the provincial finals are on the same weekend as Cork and Tipperary or Limerick and Clare are playing, our hands are tied.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank RTÉ for showing the Tailteann Cup final next Saturday.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the witnesses for being here. When I was registering for GAAGO, I was asked which county I supported. I thought it was a strange enough question to be asked. Why is that question asked?

Mr. Declan McBennett

I do not know. I imagine it is to do with the data collection in order that as the GAA grows, the Deputy can be fed more stuff on Kerry, Deputy Dillon can be fed more stuff on Mayo, Senator Cassells can be fed more stuff on Meath, etc. It builds the profile with regard to individual users which would be standard practice across the-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is it the other way around though? Is the data used in the decision-making process?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Absolutely not. I can say 100%, absolutely categorically and unequivocally "No".

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is that data available to the CCPC?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is Mr. McBennett sure?

Mr. Declan McBennett

I have never been asked that question but I have absolutely no indication it would be. If fact, I have never seen that data, never mind the CCPC seeing it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Will Mr. McBennett come back to the committee on that matter?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No bother.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I find it a very strange question to be asked when registering-----

Mr. Declan McBennett

I am not sure it is. I have never seen that data, never mind the CCPC.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There is an auto-renewal system with GAAGO. The subscription automatically renews after 12 months but this cannot be unsubscribed online; a person has to email GAAGO. There is no facility online to unsubscribe. One could say it is a bit sneaky. It continues the customer relationship by stealth almost. It is something that should be looked at perhaps.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I will bring that back. The honest answer is that I have no idea.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I again express my disappointment, as a representative of the people of Kerry, regarding the one out of six championship games being shown this year. It is a really poor----

Mr. Declan McBennett

I would really like the Chair's indulgence to answer that question because the David Clifford scenario ties into it. Three counties either have a grievance or perceived grievance with GAAGO this year, namely, the Kerry footballers, the Clare hurlers and the Monaghan footballers. The Deputy asked directly about Kerry so I will address that. Kerry versus Tipperary was on the same weekend as Mayo versus Galway and Waterford versus Limerick. There is no way, with due respect, anybody was going to pick Kerry versus Tipperary. Kerry won it easily. Kerry versus Clare was on RTÉ. As I said, going back to Deputy Fitzpatrick's point, it was a provincial final, which Kerry won 5-14 to 0-15. Kerry versus Mayo was fixed for the Saturday as a result of the group draw, so we could never have known about it. That weekend we were showing Cork versus Clare and Tipperary versus Limerick. One criticism was that we were not doing enough Munster hurling. If we were doing Kerry, we would have been doing even less Munster hurling. The fourth game, Kerry versus Cork, was fixed by the CCCC for the Saturday. We had two games on the Sunday - Tyrone versus Armagh and Derry versus Donegal. With due respect to Deputy Fitzpatrick, the result of Kerry versus Louth was 5-24 to 0-11. I was never going to pick that game. The Kerry versus Tyrone game was requested by RTÉ as part of a double header with Dublin versus Mayo. Unfortunately for us, and the people of Kerry, it could not be accommodated by the CCCC which independently fixes the schedule.

There is rationale behind each and every choice. I believe, personally and professionally, that there can never be enough David Clifford on the television. Our best ever club game featured David Clifford. Some 127,000 people watched East Kerry beat Dingle.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am conscious of my time but that will need to be sorted for next year. I will turn to TG4. Maidir le TG4, ar dtús ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil leis an stáisiún as a chuid spóirt atá ann agus as an méid atá ar an teilifís. The range of sport TG4 shows is impressive. "Peil na mBan" in particular has been important. Does TG4 have an appetite to cover more League of Ireland soccer and the domestic ladies game? It has done ladies Gaelic football and camogie well. Is it an area TG4 thinks it can further delve into?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

I am proud of the way we do minority sports. Unlike other channels, we do not cherry-pick. We try to build from the grassroots. We are already doing female soccer. Rather than going for the big numbers in international soccer, we have decided to build from the ground up. I think that has been appreciated. As I said, the one thing currently restraining TG4 from doing more in building up grassroots sport in Ireland is our funding. If that changes or we could even could reach the same level as the Welsh language channel, we could do so much more.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is TG4 planning to expand that coverage? Is there a proposal to go to Government? There is a great opportunity at the moment. There is a good environment for asking for more funding to cover that.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

We have two things on the table. We want to do something with women's rugby and we do not have the money at present. We are a very tight ship. Things get committed and if things change, it becomes difficult. We would also like to do women's football-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry. I need to ask you to wrap up, Mr. Esslemont.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

-----which we cannot do at present because we do not have the funding. If that changes, all of that changes.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How much is Mr. Esslemont talking about, ballpark, if he will pardon the pun?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

We have half the funding of the Welsh channel.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

With the indulgence of the Chair, how much would be needed to fulfil current plans? How much does TG4 need to meet the target?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

This year, we could do an awful lot more with an extra €2 million, not only in sport, but in other areas.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Carrigy.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I apologise for being late. I was attending another meeting. One of the proposals put forward by Mary O'Connor from the Federation of Irish Sport was for a television programme similar to "Sports Stadium". Another example is the Australian Government's approach of allocating a certain amount of funding to ensure minority sports are shown. What are the witnesses views and opinions on that approach? Could it be worked on collectively with the Federation of Irish Sport to give extra exposure to minority sports? We heard in the previous session that both the League of Ireland and the GAA have their own platforms, and the IRFU has plans. Could such a project be looked at collectively to bring more minority sports to the fore? When I was younger I remember regularly watching Golden League athletics, which used to be shown regularly. There were more sports shown then than are shown now on our mainstream channels. What are the witnesses views?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Contestable funds really work for public service broadcasting. We have seen that through the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's sound and vision fund. The BAI, now Coimisiún na Meán, has done things with the licence fee that RTÉ would never have done. Contestable funds really work and they can be targeted. If there is a contestable fund targeted towards a certain area, it will work.

Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin

We would be happy to look at that, funding dependent. We have to make sure we get a commercial return on any investments we make with regard to sports rights, but we would definitely look at that.

Mr. John Purcell

From a radio point of view, many local stations do that. On KCLR, we have two broad weekend programmes covering a range of sports. While Deputy Griffin is bemoaning the fact that only one out of six Kerry matches was covered, all six were covered on Radio Kerry.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The coverage was outstanding, I must say. It was very good coverage. Tim and Ambrose are radio gold.

Mr. John Purcell

Thank you, Deputy.

Mr. Declan McBennett

All six games were also covered on RTÉ Radio 1, among 200 others that have been covered.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have one radio on one side of the room and another on the other side.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I am absolutely convinced of that.

I will answer Senator Carrigy's question. I will openly and honestly say, to borrow a phrase from one of our competitors down the table, that it is only live once. Our strong priority is live sport. That is when people live in the moment. That is what they want. I have had this conversation with Mary O'Connor. I understand the rationale behind the highlights but the strong preference of all would be live sport.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Mr. Carpenter like to respond?

Dr. Mark Carpenter

It is an interesting point. I am conscious that often when there is a purely public funded contestable fund, Sky is not going to be in the picture as regards where that funding might go.

I will come back to an earlier question from Senator Byrne because it is somewhat related. One of the things we do is put events on other platforms like TikTok or YouTube that people might watch on their phone. I like to watch Leona Maguire play golf wherever she is playing. That is often on Sky Sports YouTube channel, which is freely available to anybody. We are, therefore, embracing that model. The flipside is also true. We operate a platform that is obviously in lots of homes up and down the country. That platform operates apps of various types. As people launch more apps for niche sports, whatever they might be, we are always open to conversations around that being a potential home to get that programming into more households because we have that footprint.

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome our guests from Wexford Comhairle na nÓg who have just entered the room. We are delighted to have them at our meeting. We will give the final two minutes to Deputy Gould.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I always seem to get two minutes. I thank the Chair for her indulgence. I appreciate it. My first point is about independent radio. We have C103 in Cork and to be fair to everyone involved, the radio coverage is brilliant.

I would like to see all the organisations do more with minority sports because I think there is a market for them. The quality of the product put out by TG4 is unbelievable. "Laochra Gael" is probably the best show on television. I have only cúpla focal and I sit down to watch it. TG4 should be congratulated on what it manages to do with limited funding. I would love to see its funding increase. If it gets the money, it will provide a service.

In cases where RTÉ cannot facilitate showing as many matches as possible, I hope there might be an avenue for Virgin Media to show them. I will speak to RTÉ and GAAGO. I am a proud GAA man. People commented that there were one or two hurling matches. Hurling is a minority sport, whether people get it or not.

Hurling is our native game and I want to see it promoted to encourage people to play. I recently attended an under-12 hurling match. The two teams had 32 players between them. On the bank there was the soccer lad who runs the local soccer team and he had 54 players. That is where we are with hurling in working-class areas around the country. I would have every hurling match live on television. If you look at the quantity of hurling matches compared with football, especially high-profile matches, I would like to see more football and hurling games on television, but specifically hurling as our native game. Does Mr. McBennett have any figures on the numbers watching matches on GAAGO compared with the number watching on RTÉ or TG4?

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. McBennett has 30 seconds.

Mr. Declan McBennett

I can provide the figures for the top five games this year off the top of my head. All five of them so far to date have exceeded 500,000 and possibly more than 600,000 when figures for the RTÉ Player are included. Those are the figures I have available. I would be happy to supply them as we go. Obviously, we have the semi-finals and finals to come.

May I please beg the Chair's indulgence for 30 seconds?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, 30 seconds.

Mr. Declan McBennett

This is important because I had expected it to come up but it has not. Many RTÉ people have been in here lately and RTÉ has been ripe for a kicking. I have been in RTÉ for 24 years. I am very proud of what RTÉ does. I am very proud of its place in Irish society. I am proud of the team I lead and I am proud of our output.

I want to make one final point of clarification because it has come up both publicly and privately on numerous occasions. By virtue of the fact that I am the head of sport at RTÉ, I am a director of GAAGO. I have not received one cent, one penny, one euro or one pound for that role, nor will I for as long as I am involved.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is the former director general still a director of GAAGO?

Mr. Declan McBennett

No.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have one question and I can get an answer later on. I ask about the analysis of camogie and ladies' football on "The Sunday Game".

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy must conclude now.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The Tipperary goalkeeper made an unbelievable save the other day and there was no comment. That needs to be balanced.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes all of our deliberations.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have one brief question. In the event of double-headers on both Saturdays and Sundays in future, why can RTÉ not cover one game on the Saturday and one game on the Sunday? Is it just convenient for RTÉ to do the two on the Sunday? Could it not pick on from each day?

Mr. Declan McBennett

Under the terms of the current contract as it is constituted, the pick selection is set out and it needs to be set out because otherwise there would be mayhem during the course of the championship.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Would RTÉ be able to review that and try to change it?

Mr. Declan McBennett

That is a matter primarily for the GAA in conjunction with RTÉ. The GAA is the rights holder. I cannot go in and-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

RTÉ and the GAA are partners and work well together.

Mr. Declan McBennett

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is something they should try to do.

Mr. Declan McBennett

That does not mean to say I can overturn what the GAA wants to do.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

However, RTÉ could request it at least.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our deliberations for today. I thank all our witnesses. I am sorry if it felt like quick-fire questions. There are issues with the time we had and the availability of the room. The session was split into two to get as much out of it as possible. I thank all the witnesses for their presentations. All their statements will be read into the record. I thank them for their engagement with my colleagues here today.

We have some housekeeping matters to attend to in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.23 p.m. and adjourned at 4.52 p.m. sine die.