Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 2024

Integration of LGFA and Camogie Association with the GAA: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

Today the committee is meeting representative groups in two separate sessions to discuss the integration of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA, and the Camogie Association with the Gaelic Athletic Association, GAA.

In our first session, we will hear from the steering group on integration, the GAA, the Camogie Association and the LGFA. In our second session today on the same topic, we will hear from the Gaelic Players Association and representatives of GAA Scór, national handball, national games referees, rounders and club players. I propose that we now move to the agenda item for our first session. I warmly welcome to the committee our witnesses, who need no introduction, may I say. I thank our distinguished guests, beginning with former President, Professor Mary McAleese, chairperson of the steering group on integration. We also have Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin, uachtarán of the GAA, Mr. Mícheál Naughton, uachtarán of the LGFA, and Mr. Brian Molloy, the recently appointed uachtarán of the Camogie Association. They are all very welcome. We are delighted to have them with us. The format of the meeting is such that I will invite witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to three minutes. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its webpage. Is that all agreed? Agreed. Thank you.

Before we proceed to the opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to others in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I again remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where they are not adhering to that constitutional requirement.

I propose that we now proceed to the most meaty part of our meeting, that is, the opening statements and discussion with our guests. I will begin with Professor McAleese on behalf of the steering group on integration. The floor is hers.

Professor Mary McAleese

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh agus a dhaoine uaisle. Táimid thar a bheith sásta a bheith anseo, agus gabhaim míle buíochas as ucht an cuireadh. It is a great opportunity for us to update the committee and gather its support for what we and many people believe to be the most historic 21st century development in Gaelic games, namely, the planned integration of the Camogie Association, the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Ladies Gaelic Football Association. I am here as independent chair of the steering group on integration along with the other group members, namely, the newly minted uachtarán of the Camogie Association, Mr. Brian Molloy, the newly minted uachtarán of Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, Mr. Jarlath Burns, and Mr. Mícheál Naughton, president of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association. Accompanying us are the ard stiúrthóirí from each of the three associations, in the same order, Sinead McNulty, Tom Ryan and Helen O’Rourke. We also have with us the head of organisation change and project co-ordinator, Aoibhe Dunne.

It is important at the outset, to be clear, that our remit as the steering group on integration is that we are a recommending body. That is what we do - we make recommendations. Our role is to deliver a proposed pathway to one association for Gaelic games. That is the desire of the three organisations and the overwhelming desire of the almost 1 million members - there are well over 800,000, now shooting more towards 900,000 members - between the three associations. We hope and believe that after a broad and deep consultation, the distilled wisdom and plan that has come out of that consultation process will be widely supported and enthusiastically implemented by all stakeholders in the most transformative project undertaken by the three associations since they were formed.

As the committee is aware, the Camogie Association, Gaelic Athletic Association and the Ladies Gaelic Football Association are each overseen by individual governing bodies, with a congress and a central council. Each congress oversees its own rule changes and each central council is the governing body of the associations between congresses. Each has its own complex structure and culture. We are very aware that any proposed changes put forward by our integration committee with regard to our navigable pathway towards integration will have to be brought to and ratified by the governing bodies - the congress and ard comhairle - in advance of being implemented. With almost 1 million members between the three associations and thousands of clubs all over Ireland and abroad, I hope the committee understands that the integration project is complex. There are an awful lot of moving parts. I have met people who said they thought they could do it with a flick of a switch or a magic wand. Well, there is no switch or magic wand; there is just an awful lot of really hard work. We have our overall principles, strategy and a methodology. They have to be implemented now if we are to meet our target, as we believe we will, of 2027 for one Gaelic Athletic Association, to be called the Gaelic Athletic Association, for all Gaelic games, in which all members will have equality. We hope that the old Irish saying, "Ní neart go cur le chéile”, will reveal itself in a new way. I have often thought that those words are not easily understood as just that we are strong when we work together but, rather, that you do not really know your full strength or what you are capable of until you work together. When we get to that one association for all, which will be a great gift to Ireland and wherever Gaelic games are played, that gift will reveal huge new potential.

We are encouraged that the committee asked us to appear. We know members are all interested in our work, which gives us great reassurance because we need their help at national and local levels, where they also operate. They know better than anybody, at local level, what Gaelic games offer our country and the extraordinary web of work they are, the extraordinary web of entertainment they provide and the work that goes in on the back of that. They know we will need their help as political leaders locally and nationally to be able to deliver, with the resources we will need to make integration the best it can possibly be. They know better than most of us that Gaelic games, no matter what the game - rounders, handball, scór, which is not a game at all but a competition, football, ladies Gaelic football, camogie or hurling - provide enormous benefits locally, probably including in their own clubs and parishes, at county and provincial levels and right around the world. We are happy to take this opportunity to give the committee an update on where the integration process is at and tell members where we have come from. We look forward to answering any questions members may have. I am conscious that members would probably love to ask the three presidents questions on a range of other stuff, but we are here to talk about integration, as are the members of the committee.

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh agus a dhaoine uaisle. Ar an chéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil libh as ucht an chuireadh inniu. Léiríonn an cuireadh seo an tábhacht a bhaineann leis an tionscadal seo. Tá a fhios againn go léir go bhfuil an tír agus an pobal Gaelach ar fud na tíre agus ar fud an domhain ag feitheamh linn an sprioc seo a bhaint amach mar tuigimid go léir an duais atá le baint amach ma éiríonn linn é a dhéanamh mar ba cheart, agus caithfear é a dhéanamh mar is ceart. Sin an fáth go bhfuil muid ag cur an oiread sin fuinnimh, stáidéir agus comhairliúchán isteach san fhiontar seo. Don trí eagraíocht, is é seo an tionscadal is tábhachtaí i stair an trí cumann.

Today I come before the committee as president of the Gaelic Athletic Association, alongside my esteemed counterparts from the Ladies Gaelic Football Association and the Camogie Association, united in our commitment to the project of full integration between our organisations. Integration is not merely a goal; it is a shared vision rooted in our collective dedication to the advancement of Gaelic games. Together, we recognise the transformative power of unity and we are resolute in our determination to realise its full potential. Our consultations with our membership have returned overwhelming approval for full integration and have allowed us to imagine a future where the barriers between Gaelic football, ladies' football and camogie are dissolved, where players of all backgrounds and genders stand shoulder to shoulder on the same field, bound by a common love for our national games. Integration promises not only greater inclusivity but also enhanced competitiveness, as we harness the unique strengths of each code to create a more dynamic and compelling sporting experience for all. Yet, I know there are those who will state that all they have seen so far is aspirational rhetoric without tangible results and that we are moving too slowly. Others will state that a target date of 2027 is fanciful and too ambitious and that we should not be naïve to the challenges that lie ahead.

Many of our grassroots club activists are impatient to usher in a new era of inclusivity in its fullest sense and more than 900 clubs have achieved full integration with the "one club" model. These views will be shared almost unanimously with our county players of all codes and the Gaelic Players Association. However, the county game, in particular, presents a formidable challenge to integration, with its complex structures, significant financial demands and player welfare requirements. Many GAA county committees are apprehensive about the idea of full equality knowing that it might simply multiply the €40 million cost of preparing county teams by three. We know that an inter-county model without a significant enforcement of the amateur status code is simply not viable. There is also the issue of playing and changing facilities. These will require significant upgrade and modernisation if we are to cater properly for a fully compliant association which honours even the most basic terms of reference for equality in this regard.

As we reflect on this project, it is important in our giddy enthusiasm that we “begin with the end in mind”, as Stephen Covey described it, so that we do not lose sight of the journey to achieve integration, which is why a methodical, incremental approach is not only important but crucial if this is to work. The two perspectives I have outlined are true in their own way but should not distract us. It is the job of the implementation committee to create a Gaelic games organisation which reassures the fears of those who are reluctant to make the jump, while satisfying the impatience of those who cannot understand why it has not happened already.

As custodians of the Gaelic games, we must confront all of these challenges head-on, mindful of the need to protect the integrity and tradition of our three organisations, while forging a path towards greater unity and co-operation. However, the one driving force that should keep our minds focused and our resolve strong is the fact that the road to integration, while complex and with many obstacles, is a journey worth undertaking. With strategic planning, prudent financial management and unwavering commitment, we can overcome these barriers and usher in a new era of unity and inclusivity in Gaelic games. Together, as one sporting family, we are confident in our ability to navigate the complexities of integration in a manner that respects the unique identity of each code while advancing the collective interests of all.

I pay tribute to the officers of each of the three associations for their diligent work in bringing us closer each day to the moment of full integration. They have been led by Mary McAleese, our iarUachtarán, who is perhaps the only person in Ireland who has the skills, respect and acumen to achieve this vision for us. We know that on that morning when we awaken to the vista of full integrated status as one organisation, it will not an end in itself but the beginning of a new journey towards a brighter, more inclusive future for Gaelic games in Ireland and across the world.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Ó Broin for his comprehensive opening statement. I invite Mr. Mícheál Naughton to give his opening statement on behalf of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association.

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it and to outline the Ladies Gaelic Football Association’s support for the planned integration of the Gaelic games bodies, namely, the Gaelic Athletic Association, the Ladies Gaelic Football Association and the Camogie Association. I am here as president of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association and delighted to be joined by representatives from the GAA and the Camogie Association.

This is an historic year for the Ladies Gaelic Football Association as we prepare for our 50th anniversary on 18 July. In 1974, the Ladies Gaelic Football Association was officially formed at Hayes Hotel in Thurles, and it is fair to say that we have come an awful long way in almost half a century. We are the fastest growing female sport in the country, with growth figures of 12% year on year, and we now have a membership of almost 200,000 people. We cater for women of all ages, from young girls to the elder cohort who participate in competitive football but also recreational football through our hugely successful Gaelic4Mothers and Others programme. While our inter-county leagues and championships are our flagship competitions, which are sponsored by Lidl Ireland and TG4, their playing base would account for roughly 1% of our overall membership. In more recent times, we have been proud to welcome record attendances to Croke Park for our TG4 All-Ireland Finals and media coverage of our sport has increased rapidly.

The steering group on integration was formed in the autumn of 2022. We have been fully engaged in this process from the outset. Prior to this, at our annual congress in 2022, delegates attending voted overwhelmingly in favour of a motion committing to this project. We feel the time is right to integrate the Gaelic games associations and while autonomy has been hugely beneficial to the LGFA and allowed us the space and scope to grow rapidly, we will be better, stronger and in a position to achieve so much more together as one association for Gaelic games.

We have ensured that our members have been kept fully briefed and updated on each major development throughout the process, from the listening phase right through to the most recent major announcement when the chairperson of the steering group on integration, Mary McAleese, revealed the timeline for integration at a press conference held at Croke Park in February, at which representatives from the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association were present in a strong show of unity. A detailed update to our members was issued at our most recent congress, held last month in County Clare. We will continue to keep them informed over the coming weeks and months with a number of webinars where clubs can log on to learn of future progress.

Of course, we recognise that the integration process will present challenges. The prime challenges remain on fixtures, finances and facilities. All of these key elements are very much intertwined. Substantial investment is required to upgrade existing facilities and invest in more facilities to cater for members into the future. When we consider our growth figures, it is vital that we continue the development of Gaelic games across all associations. To date, we have listened carefully to the concerns raised by various stakeholders from our clubs, counties, provincial bodies, staff and key sponsors. We have taken these on board but we have also been hugely encouraged by the overwhelming sense of excitement and expectation about what lies in store for the Ladies Gaelic Football Association when integration happens and the many positive impacts this will have, while ensuring a focus remains on growing the female aspect of our games. This continues to be at the forefront of our plans.

The path forward is now clear. By 2027, there will be one association for Gaelic games, which we will be extremely proud to be a part of. This is the ultimate goal and it is a path that we will not be deviated from. We are focused, committed and working hard to achieve this one overall aim. We were delighted to be invited here today to present our thoughts and also to reflect. I am sure members are aware of the feelgood factor that surrounds the integration process, and the associated public sentiment. This is not a simple process but if the associations are given the time, backing, respect, the new association for Gaelic games will be a game-changer for the sporting landscape, not only in Ireland but across the world. I now encourage our political leaders to work towards securing and providing the necessary resources to help make this wonderful vision the outstanding reality that it will be. Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir, a chairde.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Mr. Molloy to make his opening statement on behalf of the Camogie Association.

Mr. Brian Molloy

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I am here as the recently appointed uachtarán of the Camogie Association.

The Camogie Association was founded in 1904 and celebrates its 120th anniversary this year. We have a membership of more than 120,000, spread over 720 clubs in Ireland and across the world. We are a volunteer-led organisation in the main, operating within the club, county and provincial structures. The overall supreme governing council of the association is the ard-chomhairle, which I chair. Operational head office functions are delivered by a staff of 20 personnel led by our ard-stiúrthóir, Sinead McNulty.

Integration with the GAA and the LGFA has been on the agenda within the Camogie Association for decades. We have been consistently in favour of integration and steadfast in our belief that the new combined and fully integrated singular Gaelic games association will be a stronger, more balanced association. It will more appropriately reflect modern Irish society and will be better positioned to ensure the equitable development of camogie, hurling, ladies football and Gaelic football into the future.

There are challenges involved but nothing that is insurmountable. The decision of the steering group to recommend that we use the existing GAA legal entity for the new integrated association significantly reduces the complexities of the task ahead. The challenges of integration are often condensed into the three Fs – fixtures, facilities and finance. It is worth noting these three challenges already exist for our separate organisations and will exist for the combined organisation. Integrating does not of itself exacerbate or alleviate any of them. We have no fewer facilities the day after integration than we had the day before. We have no more fixtures the day after than the day before. Our combined finances are the same the day after as they were the day before. We need to tackle all three areas and I firmly believe that as a combined, integrated single organisation, we will be significantly better positioned to tackle them than we are now. We should not use these challenges as reasons to delay integration. In fact, we should recognise that the faster we complete the integration process, the more quickly we will be able to set about resolving these long-standing issues. Collectively, we can improve our facilities, increase our financial capacity and reduce fixture congestion.

The Sport Ireland Women in Sport policy has clearly identified the gaps that continue to exist between male and female participation and continuation rates in sport. While 97% of primary school-going girls participate in weekly sports, this drops to 80% at secondary school. Targeted interventions are needed to maintain participation, and camogie certainly has a role to play in providing girls with a continuity of opportunities to participate in their school, parish, town and village.

I believe that every child in every school, parish and town should have access to camogie, hurling, ladies football and Gaelic football. With the help of this committee, our integrated singular Gaelic games organisation can ensure that this happens. I appreciate the committee's time and am happy to take questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Molloy and all of our guests for their comprehensive statements. I will now move to committee colleagues. I will begin with Senator Cassells. I am unsure whether Deputy Dillon is available online at the moment. Senator Cassells has the floor.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Deputy Dillon may have other things on his mind just now.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the work they do on behalf of all the associations. I will start with our iarUachtarán, Professor McAleese. It is such an honour to have the iarUachtarán at our committee today. I thank her and all of her committee for their work and for the 30,000 respondents who participated, which is a number of great significance with regard to a public discourse for sporting organisations. I note that 90% of the responses were positive.

On the timeframe of 2027 and the achievement of that which Professor McAleese mentions in her report, Mr. Ó Broin, uachtarán of Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, mentioned that 900 clubs are already using the one-club model. As we all know, most clubs, out of necessity, just get on with it. It is about trying to ensure that our sisters and daughters and everyone else has equal access to a pitch because we are all participating and the club works. The points made by the uachtarán was in respect of the intercounty model and the associated costs at that level. In the context of the challenges and difficulties in achieving the timeframe, as pointed out by Mr. Ó Broin, is it the intercounty model and boards which will be more problematic than the actual club model?

Professor Mary McAleese

That is a very interesting question. In response, we would say that integration is not and never has been a top-down idea but, rather, a bottom-up one. We already have the one-club model leading the way in many ways. Right across at every level of the GAA, in a sense we have been moving towards integration and the gender balance and inclusion which will come from that because that is the wind at our back. That is the express will. The Senator mentioned the survey which gave us the insight into the level of support and desire for integration. We are not unaware that there are areas which will require very significant internal management and structure. At the end of the day there is only one message here, which is that integration is happening. We will expect all the levels of the organisation to tell us, as they have been doing over the 18 months we have been in discussions with them, how we can best help them to move forward with the integration process. Do we think the timeline is a reasonable one? Yes, we do. We have looked at the methodology and at how we can achieve what we hope to achieve over the coming three years.

At the end of the day there are historic elements to this. The Senator will have heard it said that the GAA is 140 years old this year, for example. The Camogie Association is 120 years old this year. The Ladies Gaelic Football Association is 50 years old this year. When we get to 2027, we will have reached the 180th anniversary of the birth of Michael Cusack, who was born in Black '47 in the middle of the Famine and in the middle of nowhere. What did he start with when he set up the GAA in 1884? He had plenty of problems, I am sure, with facilities, fixtures and finances but, in comparison, today we are looking at a well-to-do country with a growing population and a massive desire and need for good and healthy preoccupations of sport, which are offered daily by the GAA. Do we have a worry? No, we do not.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Professor McAleese mentioned her three colleagues alongside her and how long the various associations have been in place. Thankfully, although this island is politically divided, most of our sporting organisations operate on a 32-county basis, with soccer being the only odd one out. When the Football Association of Ireland, FAI and the Irish Football Association, IFA, tried to have a merger back in the thirties and forties, it was not politics or religion that stood in the way but, rather, the reduction in blazers from two sets to one set. I am not too sure whether the reduction in the number of blazers on either side of Professor McAleese could prove problematic.

Mr. Naughton mentioned in his statement, as did Professor McAleese, the audit of existing facilities that is now under way. I ask Mr. Naughton to briefly outline the kinds of constraints and stresses the LGFA is under with regard to facilities at the moment?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

As we have said and have always alluded to, it is the 3Fs. Fixtures and facilities are two of the big ones, along with finance. With regard to facilities at the moment, there are pitches available and we are getting games played but there are more teams. We have seen from our figures that our sport is growing by 12% year-on-year. The GAA and camogie, too, are growing. We need more facilities. We have to look at what we have and the schools and, perhaps, colleges where there are pitches and to work with them. There will definitely be an onus on getting more pitches. Part of why we are here today is to put that out there and to talk to political leaders with regard to going forward on that. It is one of the things we will need going forward. We need to have pitches and to be able to play our games.

Senator Shane Cassells

How pronounced are the capacity issues as between female and male teams, at both intercounty and club levels?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

I probably cannot give the Senator an exact figure. We have nearly 200,000 members off the top of my head. I do not know what the membership figures of the GAA or the Camogie Association are, but we are growing year on year. There are female teams in nearly every club in the country.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over his allocated time. I know he wishes to get around to everybody.

Senator Shane Cassells

There was a significant event in Dublin last night with the women's international match between Ireland and England, with 33,000 fans in attendance. At an event prior to the game, the FAI president, Paul Cooke, called on FAI members to put pressure on politicians with regard to facilities for women's soccer in this country. A couple of weeks ago, John Prenty, CEO of Connacht GAA, referred to the need for the State to fund the integration process. He stated:

20 girls in a room are not going to accept that and they are right. I think if the government is into the 40% on management, I think they have a huge responsibility when this comes in to fund our association in a way that will accommodate that because by 2027 we just cannot manage on our own resources.

There is always only one pot. The FAI is looking money for the women's association, John Prenty is making this call and the IRFU will be in here as well. In terms of the level of funding that is being sought from the State, I am sure the audit will inform that. What is the view of the GAA on this issue and the role of the State in that regard?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

I support what was said last night by the FAI. It is not either for us or for them. It should be for all sports. We are coming at this from that perspective. I am the principal of a post-primary school. Looking at the sedentary lifestyle of young people at the moment and the decline in the number of people who are playing active sport, it is about getting them out to play any sport. As a principal, I brought soccer and rugby into a GAA-only school to ensure that pupils were getting at least some sort of sport. Investing financially in the GAA does not mean there should not be investment in soccer. If we are going to invest, municipal pitches and stadiums would be for all sports, as are our major stadiums.

What is different about the GAA is that the GAA, and all of its codes, are part of Irish culture. They are sports indigenous to this country. Last year, and every year, the GAA re-invests approximately €75 million into facilities and infrastructure in the country. No other sporting organisation has that. Of every euro that is earned, 83 cent goes back in to coaching in schools, infrastructure and developing the association throughout Ireland and the world. As I said last week on "The Late Late Show", we are in a unique position. When people go into villages, they wonder why there is a small Centra supermarket, a chapel, a school and a magnificent GAA complex. That has not happened by accident. The GAA is responsible for creating a sporting infrastructure throughout every parish in Ireland that the whole country should be proud of.

In 2009, I was the manager of the Irish international ladies team that played against Australia. When we played the first game in Parnell Park against Australia, I had an international team in the dressing room with two toilets they could use. Going to the toilet is a very basic need when you are taking on so much water. A lot of those girls went out to play the match not having been able to go to the toilet. Before talking about making a pitch, I make the point that facilities in our GAA clubs are built for men and their needs. That is something that we cannot be blind to. If we are going to have facilities for all, they must genuinely be for all. It must be a situation where there are facilities for girls if they need to do basic things like going to the toilet before playing a match.

Senator Shane Cassells

When will that audit of the facilities be completed?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

I cannot give that answer now. The ard-stiúrthóir might be able to help but I am not sure if he is in a position to comment on that. It will be ready soon. It is certainly part of the timeline of events. When it is ready, along with the study the University of Sheffield is doing on the social and financial impact of the GAA in Ireland, all of that will be presented, and not only to our members. The GAA does not go around with begging bowls. We are the people who give our finance and give readily of ourselves to our people. We certainly will be making a large bid for finance.

Senator Shane Cassells

Finally, I will ask Mr. Molloy-----

An Cathaoirleach

We have four minutes and the Senator is on ten minutes. He has one more minute.

Senator Shane Cassells

In respect of the development of the game and the advantages to the Camogie Association of having the integration model, does that offer a route to broaden the game countrywide?

Mr. Brian Molloy

It does. When I gave my initial speech at our congress after having been appointed, I drew attention within our association to the fact that we engage and talk about the importance of female participation in sport and getting support for it, but we are not always great at supporting each other in that regard. Camogie supports camogie. I asked delegates how many of them had gone to a ladies Gaelic football game and vice versa. There is a piece there. The phrase I used at the time was around an integrated mindset. We are working towards a 2027 delivery date for full integration. There are all the operational pieces, facilities and infrastructure that need to be developed in that space but there is a mindset piece that we need to work on as well. It is a mindset piece around the members of the three associations operating and making decisions through the prism of asking themselves what decisions they would make if we were an integrated organisation now and whether they would make a particular facility more available to the Camogie Association or the LGFA. It is about members asking themselves if they would make different decisions if it was an integrated organisation now. Getting our members to that space is going to be very important from our perspective.

Senator Shane Cassells

That is a great way of looking at it.

An Cathaoirleach

I will now have to suspend the meeting as there is a vote in the Dáil. With the agreement of colleagues, I will suspend the session to allow members to go to vote and we will resume as soon as that is done. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2.17 p.m. and resumed at 2.47 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for their patience.

To my colleagues, we have five-minute slots now. We now come to Senator Malcolm Byrne. The floor is yours, Senator.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Gabhaim buíochas lenár bhfinnéithe. I thank them for all the work they do. Mr. Molloy made the very valid point that you can change the structures and so on but it is very much about the change in mindset, and I think that message is going out. I know he was talking about 2027, but maybe when we get to the GAA's sesquicentenary in 2034, all this will be a distant memory. I think our concern as a committee, and what we want to do, is to support not only the national governing body, as it will be, but also, more particularly, clubs on the ground doing what they do and women's access to sport. I will ask iarUachtarán McAleese my question. I presume there has been no resistance at any level within any of the organisations on this.

Professor Mary McAleese

No. That is the remarkable thing. In fairness to the GPA, it has really pushed the integration project at the congresses. It seemed to open up a reservoir of yeses to integration that was there, just waiting to be mined, to be drained, as we are doing. We are trying to get the best of that working. As Mr. Ó Broin said earlier, this project has been around for a very long time, but it seems now to be a project whose time has come. The rightness and the integrity of it is just so appealing now that the idea of not doing it strikes most people as quite ludicrous. On all the various levels of the association and with all the stakeholders with whom we engaged, including in the survey, we were overwhelmed by the positivity. Yes, people can see problems - of course they can - and, as Mr. Molloy pointed out, a lot of those problems - facilities, fixtures, money - will be there whether there is integration or not. There will always be issues, but they are better dealt with in an integrated way. Why? Because integration has true integrity about it. I refer to an equal organisation.

I remember going down to Carran last year, to Michael Cusack's old home, and standing there and saying, "If he were starting the organisation today, not in a million years would he set up an organisation just for male sports." There is no way.

He would have been leading the posse. Like those who set off 50 years ago with the LGFA and 120 years ago with camogie, he had passion for these wonderful, unique Gaelic games. You do meet the odd Chicken Licken, and we are probably going to still meet them, but we have to push through and hopefully bring them with us.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

What is the witnesses' ask of the State? Obviously, there is the issue of funding. Our committee wants to support this process as does Government. Where do you see the State being able to assist? There are specific funding asks but I am also thinking of what our committee can recommend to the Minister and Government. The visibility question is also critical in the area of sport and everywhere else - women on walls. I am very conscious that there is a lot more of an effort now in the GAA museum. This is about the presentation of women within the new association and what might be done.

Mr. Molloy might comment on nomenclature. I am sometimes asked what camogie is and I often say it is women's hurling. Are we going to move to just talking about hurling in the same way as we talk about football? I appreciate those are three slightly different questions.

Mr. Brian Molloy

We can work backwards. I will take the final one. The etymology of camogie is that the buachaillí baineann úsáid as camán and na cailíní use a slightly smaller version of a camán, which is called a camóg. That became known as camogie. It is a distinct game. It is a different game. We are very proud of our game and its distinctness. Ultimately, all decisions within our organisations are made by the membership, the grassroots and through the delegates process. Any change of that nature certainly will not be imposed by me, as uachtarán, or by the Ard Comhairle. Personally I would like to keep the distinctness of the name camogie. I think we can do that within the proposed integrated association, and we have our four sports, as distinct from it being just hurling played by women. There is a history to why it is called camogie and a history to camogie. Particularly in the context of moving to a single organisation, it is important that we hold on to our history and to the cultural elements of that history. One of those is that the game is called camogie. I would like to retain it but, ultimately, it is a decision that will be made by the membership.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Women on walls is about providing role models. Does Mr. Naughton want to talk about how that might work in an integrated association?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

We have started that in our own committees - over 50% of them. I know the GAA passed a motion on it at their congress. That is what it is about, equal representation and we respect that. We are going in the right direction in relation to that. We have come a long way. We are not as long around as the GAA or camogie but in our short time, we have made our presence felt. We are the fastest growing sport. That will help us into the future and I think it will play a big part in the integration as well going forward.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Role models are critically important.

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

We have some of the best in there, such as the Dublin girls and the Meath girls from two years ago. At the weekend we will have the Armagh girls coming through. Our role models, like Cora and those who were on "The Late Late Show", have represented our sport for years, and at international level as well. We are talking about that. It is about interlinking and making sure we are out there at the face of the GAA as well as camogie and that.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

I will put the question of what the State can do to Mr. Ó Broin as well. What does he expect of our committee? He mentioned funding specifically, but let us drill that down. Everyone comes looking for funding support. What else can we do to support the LGFA?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

Essentially it does come down to infrastructure for us. That is where the big element of this is. The GAA in many respects has pre-empted the fact that this was going to happen. There are a lot of counties building centres of excellence at the moment. County Longford is one, for example, as well as Carlow, Armagh, Down, Monaghan, Cavan and Cork, just off the top of my head. The GAA routinely gives each of those counties €1 million to help with that. We also have major projects going on in Kildare, Meath, Louth, Waterford - stadiums. Thurles needs a major facelift. Páirc Uí Chaoimh had a major debt. We are spending about €33 million on upgrading Croke Park. All of these situations create an immense number of jobs and an immense benefit and dynamo to the local infrastructure and economy. It is not as if we are coming here with a begging bowl. We already assist our units greatly in their infrastructure needs.

Three is going to become one and I am sure members listened to Mr. Molloy's speech on Saturday when he became camogie president. Camogie is in a situation where in a lot of clubs, if they want to use the premises of the GAA, they have to pay. A lot of GAA hurling clubs, if they do not have a field, they have to pay the local GAA football club to do so. If we are moving away from all of that, there is going to be a great need for extra pitches and facilities. I am not going to put a figure on it. The previous infrastructure chair, John Murphy, who is now trustee of the association, has a figure on it. What I have asked of the new infrastructure committee, led by Sean Michael O'Regan from Waterford, is to come up with a ten-year infrastructure strategy, something like what the FAI has already done and the very impressive document it has. If we mirror that, before we start running looking for funds, if there can be an acceptance that we already invest multiple millions in our facilities, then if this is going to happen, it is a new challenge to all of us. If we are the people with the facilities, we want to create the facilities commensurate with the needs of ladies playing our games.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Does Mr. Ó Broin believe that is correct that any GAA club should currently be charging a camogie club or a ladies' Gaelic football club to use their facilities?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

Absolutely not. That should be the number one move. Having said that, when the GAA uses Croke Park, which is a separate corporate entity, we pay Croke Park. Ladies' GAA and camogie all pay Croke Park. If my school is playing on a pitch that is a neutral venue, we pay for the use of it. When neutral games take place on our pitch in Silverbridge, people pay for the use of the venue. I am not going to condemn any club for doing it but if we are going to move into this one family situation, the first thing that has to go is paying to use facilities. I have to say I was taken aback when I read that in Mr. Molloy's speech. It is worth everybody in this room reading it because it was an outstanding speech.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

I accept the point Mr. Ó Broin is making. However, within local communities, we should not have a situation whereby a local GAA club is charging another local sporting club within the same code for use of the facilities.

Professor Mary McAleese

That is an objective, obviously. On the day that we have integration, everybody will be a member of the one organisation and they will all be members on equal terms, that would disappear anyway, one would like to think. The whole ethos of integration is to smooth out all those historic imbalances and cultural, if you like, inequities. I use the word "inequities", but they are just realities, are they not? They are the kind of things that we have been trying to finesse. Integration will undoubtedly help to finesse them.

One thing that we have not really said here, which is important for Government and, indeed, local authorities to take on board, is the massive, unquantifiable, leveraged voluntary effort that underpins the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association. We have 600 camogie clubs; who runs those? We have 1,600 GAA clubs and 1,000 ladies' Gaelic football clubs. These are people who are investing in school, parish, community, county, province on a weekly and very often a daily basis. If you were to quantify the investment in wellness, health and sporting and entertainment opportunities for our people, you would be talking many more millions of euro outside of the actual millions that Mr. Ó Broin just referred to. That is a very important element because we do not always find it in other sporting codes.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I welcome the representatives from all three associations. I should put on the record that I am a member of the GAA. I was also a member of the ard comhairle in Croke Park for many years. I am fully supportive of the one-club model. It is something I always supported when it was discussed by the former uachtaráin John Horan at the time his memorandum of understanding was put forward. I look forward to the day when it is successful, and it will be successful. As Mr. Molloy said, it is a journey worth taking and one we must all take together in order to get to that point. Naturally, there are key challenges. In order to overcome those challenges, one thing is very important. The word "volunteers" was mentioned. I am one of those volunteers. I am still treasurer of my own GAA club in Longford. We need to maintain that and the amateur status of the association. That is key in everything we do and core to what we are as an organisation. That is why I believe we are the organisation we are - the biggest voluntary sporting organisation in the world.

The three Fs were mentioned: fixtures, facilities and finance. I would probably include an R for rules as another area where there might be issues. On funding, Mr. Ó Broin could not put a figure on it but if we, as members of Government and Opposition parties, and as a committee can make recommendations to the Government it is important that significant infrastructure funds are put in place to make sure we upgrade all the facilities he mentioned because the vast majority of our facilities were developed for men. That has changed. The new sports capital grants feature a weighting system to upgrade facilities, particularly toilets. Would Mr. Ó Broin be in favour of a specific fund being put in place? Say, something similar to the sports capital fund but that would be specifically targeted towards upgrading all facilities in the context of the integration of ladies' sports, and that the fund would be put in place by the Government?

On facilities, local authorities tend to provide pitches, but many tend to be for other sporting organisations and are not always available to the GAA. What part might local authorities play in providing facilities?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

If you are asking about a practical way in which the Government can help us, it could reopen the international investment programme. We have grounds in Waterford, Meath, Longford, Louth and elsewhere throughout the country, including Fitzgerald Stadium in Kerry, that were impacted as a result of the fund being discontinued. We are the only country in Europe where the international investment programme has been stopped. That money would be spent directly on infrastructure and would remove much of the financial burden from the GAA, the LGFA and An Cumman Camógaíochta. That would be a really good start for all of us. Every county I visit, - for example, as Kildare, which is in the middle of rebuilding St. Conleth's - is waiting for that money to be released. I understand the Government's reticence, because we want to do it with integrity and you have to do due diligence on the type of people who are looking to invest in this country. However, the prize in this regard is significant. Because we have this indigenous game, we do not have the auctioning power of UEFA or FIFA. Even watching the Champions League - and I am an Arsenal fan - last night, I was looking at three advertisements along the side one of which was PlayStation, the other Heineken and the other was McDonalds. Because of the values of our association, we do not have connections with any of those three companies. One is a fast food company, the second is an alcohol company and the third promotes a sedentary lifestyle. That holds us back. We have stopped ourselves taking the type of betting company sponsorship that many sports rely on. That is very good for our values, but it really holds us back. About €500 million is being spent every year on fighting obesity. If you put that into infrastructure - into fields for children to play in - that is the best way to assist your nation.

If a message were to go out that the Government is going to put a field in every village in Ireland, which you would think would be a simple objective, we know exactly what would happen. The cost of the available facility that you were looking to purchase would rocket. It always does, no matter what grant the Government gives out, whether it is for solar panels, electric vehicle charging or whatever. If you allow GAA clubs in the new era to apply for grant aid to upgrade their facilities or buy fields adjacent to them, anyone in the GAA will know that if you send the right person to the right farmer who owns the field, he will give it to you for the right price. However, if he finds out that the Government is going to come in and do it for us, we all know that the price will be inflated. These are all local Irish solutions to the Irish situation. Is it not wonderful, as the iarUachtarán said, that 140 years on from whenever it was developed, the biggest challenge we have is that we do not have enough fields for the people who want to play our native games? That is a great challenge that we have and one that we will surmount.

Mr. Brian Molloy

Mr. Ó Broin has captured it very well. From a Camogie Association perspective, visibility is key for us. I refer to visibility of our game and making sure that we afford opportunities to all of the girls. I made the point earlier, and I come from a particular perspective, that I want to see camogie girls playing ladies football. And I want to see ladies football girls playing camogie. Mr. Ó Broin commented at our congress, and I am sure he said it elsewhere too, about ensuring we develop hurling in traditional football areas and football in traditional hurling areas. As an integrated association, it goes back to that integrated mindset. If we all see ourselves as being part of the same then we can actually leverage all the skill sets that we have. We have brilliant people all across the country, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of really talented people but there is a funding requirement for some of these things and a requirement to enable us to leverage the volunteers and the skill sets and grey matter that we have all across every parish. That only brings us so far. As Mr. Ó Broin said, the most effective way of doing it is through a mechanism whereby the associations – and, ultimately, the association – will leverage the money from the Government. The suggestion about having an integration-focused fund for infrastructure development specifically around making improvements in relation to accessibility for the other codes is a really good idea. Senator Carrigy said that there have been changes made to the sports capital grant criteria to make sure that additional weighting applies when female sports are given access to the funds. The point about the municipal model was mentioned earlier and making the centres of excellence in every town and parish operate on the basis that they are available to multiple sports gives better bang for buck to the Government and gives us a better situation whereby we have less difficulty in accessing pitches that our kids play on.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I totally support the comments about any club charging camogie teams or ladies to play on their own GAA pitches. These are our sisters, our mothers, our aunts. That should never be the case. If one thing goes out from today it is that all clubs should desist from charging for the use of their facilities.

Something has cropped up around insurance and I know this from insurance schemes that we have in the GAA. Is there any possibility of coming under one insurance scheme? I know the ladies and the camogie players have higher premiums to pay when they take membership. Is there any discussion on that end of things with regard to the injuries scheme?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

Yes, the Senator is correct. Of course, that is part of the integration. The ladies organisation has an injury fund. People think that ladies are paying more but when you break it down and what the clubs pay for the GAA there is very little in it. You might be talking about €3 or €4 of a difference. Definitely, going forwards, there will be one injury fund. We are basically forming integration on the one-club model. There will be one membership and one injury fund. That is part of our discussion and it will be an end goal for the integration process.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Are there any other key challenges apart from fixtures, facilities and finance? I mentioned rules.

Is there any other area out there the witnesses feel the committee can push on their behalf to make changes?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

Looking at solutions around finance and local authorities, a model we have found works really well is if a local authority does a deal with a local post-primary school where the school gets two fields during the day and the authority takes it over in the evening, hires it out, looks after it, lines it out and charges clubs for it. GAA clubs can use that pro rata. We are not looking for a land grab. All we want is access to these facilities. Our children will be using them during the day in school. The local authority would link up with the school - this happens in the North routinely - and then all the GAA clubs will be able to use it. They do not have a liability over that land; it is not vested in the GAA, but we have the use of it. That is a good compromise model for use of public money for all and then, of course, it is multi-use if it is not vested in the GAA. That is just one solution to answer the question asked about how local authorities can assist schools, GAA clubs and other sporting clubs as well.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

At home in Longford, the pitches of St. Mel's College are available to the underage squads in the county. We have been quite progressive. I remember there were times when the ladies' county games were on a club ground as they were not allowed use the county ground, but it is something we have been very strong on, so all finals are played in Pearse Park, our county ground. All intercounty games are played there as well. That is the way we need to look at it. All those facilities on school grounds, etc., should be available at all times and not just during the school day.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Integration is really important. Bringing three into one is a really positive journey. It is a complex journey but one everybody wants to be on. I congratulate Mr. Ó Broin and Mr. Molloy on their recent elevation. They have both been very keen on integration, so it is probably a really good time for them to be involved in the organisation to ensure integration does happen.

Professor McAleese mentioned the 2027 deadline, or that it was the target. What does she see as the big obstacles for integration between now and then? There is a sense the devil is in the detail. We are all supportive of the journey, but it may be different when it comes down to the detail. For example, the male elite athletes - the county players - get a recognition grant and expenses whereas the female elite players do not get those. That is important. Professor McAleese mentioned fixtures and we see Dublin hurling and camogie playing at the same time in different venues. That is a huge loss to the organisation, the players and facilities. It seems mad we would have that situation. Why not have double headers for events like that? These are the obstacles the witnesses are going to have.

There is huge reluctance in a club I know of. There was an all-weather Prunty pitch put in and some of the male long-standing members of the club objected to women playing on that particular pitch. There is huge resistance to it, so the witnesses' job is difficult and, as was said, it is complex. Complexities like this have to be managed, so how do they manage the detail of things like that? On the medical side, there are packages of supports for elite male players whereas the women's package for intercounty players is significantly less. How are the witnesses going to address those sort of challenges and that detail?

Professor Mary McAleese

The Deputy is quite right because all those things are on the table and those are all things we have discussed at length. The uachtaráin, especially of the LGFA and CA, have been working on this problem of the imbalance at county-intercounty level between male and female footballers. I do not think there is huge resistance. There may very well be pockets of resistance which we pass through as the integration project delivers. As I think Senator Byrne said, they will be history by the time we get to the sesquicentenary of the GAA and it will be a new GAA. There are things we pass through. There are three organisations that have grown up over very substantial periods of time with their own cultures, some with much greater resources than others.

Once we become one organisation with equality of membership, there are consequential realities. That was brought home to me very clearly in a discussion we had with the GPA which gave a really good presentation to the integration committee. We raised with the representatives the issue of the money currently available for male players. There is a worry about whether that would have to be doubled or trebled and where would that money come from. It was interesting. The GPA, which has been pushing the integration project and which kind of lives equality with the joint male-female presidency, said very emphatically to us that whatever the pot of money is it is divided equally. I asked whether that would mean the men might have to take a reduced level and the GPA said that would be a logical consequence. In other words, whatever the pool of money is it is divided among everybody in one association where all are equal members. I was very taken with all that because that is a consequential reality for one organisation for all Gaelic games where all become members. Those who play camogie and those who play ladies' Gaelic football will not be arguing about entitlement to play on a local GAA pitch and having people tell them they did not pay for this. We are members of the GAA. How to finesse that at both local and county level is with really good fixture management and financial management and with an ethos that is now embedded - we are beginning to see it more and more embedded - and that is an ethos not just of integration but of equality, which is an essential component of integration. I was very taken by the GPA's honesty and forthrightness on this.

Mr. Brian Molloy

The Deputy asked about double headers and that. It is always great when you have something in your back pocket to come back with if it comes up, because something that maybe gives an insight or a little bit of a vision of what integration might look like in future will happen on Sunday when we have the two Very-sponsored camogie league finals, the 2A and the 1A, being played in advance of Dublin playing Meath in a football Leinster quarter final in Croke Park. It will be a unique moment, a unique event, on Sunday. Those types of cross-code events are really important for numerous reasons, but one of them is giving visibility of the various games to supporters of one code or another who do not necessarily go to see what a game is like. We are certainly encouraging the Dublin and Meath football fans to come in early and have a look at what a camogie final is and see just how high the standard is in camogie finals. Equally, because it has to be both ways, we are telling the supporters of the camogie teams coming in to watch those finals to stay on and watch Dublin play Meath in the Leinster finals-----

(Interruptions).

Mr. Brian Molloy

I am not allowed indicate which team they should support. I have to separate myself. My father is from Dublin so members can work that out themselves. With those sort of events it is interesting that it is a very unique thing now and I think we are going to have people coming just to have a look at us having a Leinster quarter final in football following two camogie finals, but that is the sort of thing integration is going to make normal.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Does Mr. Molloy believe hurling and camogie will be played in future?

Mr. Brian Molloy

We regularly do double headers of hurling and camogie up and down the country. To be fair, throughout the provinces, there is a good buy-in to facilitating double headers. We get good engagement in terms of gate splits and such matters that have to be worked out, because we are separate organisations, and how we manage. It is important to say that the provincial GAA councils have always been good and worked well with us. Our attendee numbers are low. We need to drive them up. We need more people to attend our games. I will give the Cathaoirleach a copy of my congress speech for the members, as it has been mentioned a few times. I raised the point in my congress speech that we have to look at ourselves first. We have to make sure that the camogie members from around the country are getting up to Croke Park and watching the final, irrespective of who is in that final. We have a tendency to go when our county is in the final, but not necessarily when our county is not in it. We ourselves have to get better. We also need more support from the GAA. We need the GAA to encourage its members to go out and watch camogie finals. I am very appreciative of Mr. Ó Broin and his team because they are very strong in terms of the press releases that are going out, highlighting the fact that the Dublin-Meath game is being preceded by our division 2 and division 1 finals.

Similarly with the LGFA we in the Camogie Association need to get better at supporting Mr. Naughton and his association and its fixtures and vice versa. That will come in that integrated mindset when we see that we are all part of the same association and all supporting each other.

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

To allude to what Mr. Molloy was saying, as an association we are conscious that we do not get the same level at the gates or the same level of sponsorship as the GAA gets, or even the same level of funding from the Government. There is that discrepancy, and it is hard. People do not understand. We work very well with the GAA in getting double headers on. However, now with the split season and with the weather conditions, it involves trying to get pitches that can take two games. That is why people sometimes say such things as Donegal ladies played here and the men played there. We would love to have a double header but unfortunately the pitch might not be able to take it. That is often the problem. Now with the split season as well, so many games are going on, leaving half the year for clubs. Everyone is fighting for the same pitches, for the same time and same media coverage. Those are problems.

With integration, that is all up for discussion, with the fixtures committee looking at all of that, to see in what way it can be done better that will work for everybody. That is what integration is all about. Integration is about making sure that everybody in that club is treated exactly the same. We have to look at all the issues that the Deputy alluded to in order to make it easier for everybody to get out.

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

My response to that is that many county boards are already thinking about integration. My own county was in the national league ladies final last Sunday. It coincided with the first round of the GAA fixtures in Armagh. We moved them all back to Saturday to make sure that everybody could go. People are being responsible on that.

Mr. Naughton is right when he says that there is always a logical reason that you cannot have double headers. It may be due to the state of the pitch. Some people would say well why not play a ladies All-Ireland before the All-Ireland final as we do not have a minor match now. LGFA or An Cumann Camógaíochta would not want to go anywhere near that. They have their own massive events, keynote, blue ribbon events. It is part of the strategic plan of An Cumann Camógaíochta to move from 30,000 and 55,000. That would be an incredible achievement for it. We see what the LGFA has done as well.

In regard to what was said, it is a really good point and I refer to it as well, the €40 million that we are spending on preparing our county teams is not sustainable for us. We know that. I have formed an amateur status committee, which is going to look at what it is like to be an amateur athlete in the current climate. LGFA is helping us with that, because we want to make it bearable for a young athlete to play for his county team.

Apart from that, with the number of training sessions going on and the amount that is being spent, and looking at the corporate sustainability reporting directive that we have to try to reduce pollution under the European Sustainability Reporting Standards, ESRS, if we are going to be a responsible, sustainable organisation we have to honour our obligations to the environment. I would hate to think what the carbon footprint is of all those journeys being made. We were at the Pittsburgh Steelers the week before last and I asked Dan Rooney, "What is the longest journey that any of your players make to train?" He said that some players have to travel for 20 minutes. Tom Parsons used to travel for two-and-a-half hours from Dublin to play in Castlebar. That sort of thinking is outdated in the modern era considering our responsibilities to the environment. We need to be making serious decisions around the number of training sessions that our players are making. If we manage to do that then it will become easier to achieve genuine equality, not by bringing the female players up but by bringing everybody down to a level where amateur athletes can have a life and play and represent their counties.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Very briefly, it was said to me that some female players do not have access to GAA centres of excellence. I am not sure whether they meant they do not have access or that they have to pay, whereas the male participants do not have to pay. I am not sure if that is true. Is that something? Will the issues around inequality in terms of Government grants be resolved by 2027? Will those inequalities be ironed out by 2027?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

Yes, that is the plan. In regard to the centres of excellence, some counties charge and other counties do not.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Do they charge women? Women are charged and men are not.

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

No, a centre of excellence could charge a club team, a male club team as well. It is not just the ladies. They would charge the GAA club or the hurling club or the camogie club.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is it not therefore a gender issue?

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

No it is not a gender issue. It is the same if a school goes to a centre of excellence, it would give them tours as well.

Professor Mary McAleese

Where there are anomalies that are gender based, integration will end those.

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

That is great. The best of luck. If Silverbridge, where I play all my football, suddenly had a camogie team that was taking in Silverbridge, Crossmaglen and Mullaghbawn, even though Mullaghbawn and Crossmaglen have camogie teams, and they went to train in Silverbridge, we should not be charging them. It is a simple no; we should not be charging.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes Deputy Andrews's time. I now call Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan. I do not wish to cut him short but ask him to be mindful that we are 30 minutes over and have another group waiting to come in.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I will be brief because many of the questions have been asked. I love the way Mr. Ó Broin is dropping names like Dan Rooney, as in, "I was just chatting with Dan Rooney". That comes from being president of the GAA. Fair play.

Congratulations, this is an extraordinary venture. I am four square behind it. Even though it has its detractors, such as those who say, for example, it is not going to work because county boards are facing insolvency due to the cost of running their men's team. However, this is exactly why this venture has to work. I will ask Mr. Ó Broin a question and I am not trying to catch him out, because he may not know the answer. For example, does he know whether the players on the Cork senior hurling team would ever be involved in or organise fundraising events to fund the running of the team? Would he be aware of that?

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

I can only speak on behalf of Armagh. There have been fundraising efforts made and the Armagh team would definitely have been involved. However, I do not know if that is something a county board should ask of its already very stretched players. If the county board is going to ask players to play and to train four or five times a week, let it fundraise. The players are already making enough of a commitment.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I agree. That is why I found it extraordinary. If I had someone like Patrick Horgan rang me to say "Christopher, can you help us out? We are organising a greyhound racing night in Cork, can you sponsor a race?", it would absolutely floor me but this is exactly what happened with the great Cork camogie team that just won the All-Ireland. This is an amazing group of players. They are icons, heroes, role-models for people. They are going to Croke Park and winning All-Irelands. We see players such as Fiona Keating, Saoirse McCarthy and Orla Cronin. It is amazing. I went up to Kent Station to welcome them back.

These guys are absolute heroes. I think it is extraordinary to get a phone call a couple of weeks later from the same team members that I had been shouting on and celebrating to see if I would sponsor a race or help out with their fund raising, the greyhound racing in Cork. This should not be happening anymore. That is why this amalgamation has to work, so that, as Ms McAleese said, it is equal treatment for equal players. I may be looking at this through rebel glasses but from a Cork person's point of view, it is the only joy we have been able to experience from a GAA, camogie or hurling point of view over the past number of years.

It is not just paying lip service to it. For me, at least, having observed the two codes, the standard of camogie and ladies' football is skyrocketing at quite an alarming pace. I might be wrong in my assessment but the skill level, professionalism and fitness show that these are extraordinary athletes. Attendances at matches are also growing. The witnesses talked things down a bit in terms of attendance but there have been record attendances recently at many of the finals. It may not be quite there yet but it is growing at an extraordinary pace.

These extraordinary players should not have to be coming to me or anyone else to bail them out to run the senior team. That should be on an equal basis. Perhaps the witnesses might like to comment on that and the fact that it is happening.

Mr. Iarlaith Ó Broin

It depends on what they are fundraising for.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

The running of the senior team. I actually asked them were they seriously asking for help to run the senior camogie team. I found it extraordinary.

Mr. Mícheál Naughton

Sometimes county boards would run things but they would have the players there for PR purposes for the media and sponsors. They would be there more for the photo shoot than looking for sponsorship. There is no doubt that it happened in the case of the ladies in the past. We have got to a situation now where county boards are not doing funding. Basically, our game has to grow. Now we are telling county teams to go and sell themselves to sponsors helping out with county teams, selling the product we have. At the end of the day, we have a very good product.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I agree that the product is amazing. However, the way it was put to me was that these people were organising a fundraiser to help with the running of the team. It is surprising that this is happening, considering what they achieved a few months earlier.

Mr. Brian Molloy

The Deputy was referring to a camogie team. It happens in our association. As we move through the integration process. we will be in a position to centrally provide more funding to counties. With the player charter this year, a significant amount has been provided to counties. As has been mentioned, there is a piece whereby county boards will run a fundraiser and they will ask the county team to help out, as distinct from the county team going on a solo run and fundraising for themselves. Sometimes, it is a question of the county boards deciding to run a fundraiser and asking the players to help out. Ultimately, I agree with the Deputy and with Mr. O'Broin's point. The reality of the situation is that the intercounty camogie and ladies Gaelic football players put in the same effort and hours as the lads playing county hurling and football. They put in a huge amount of effort. The athleticism and skill level that are being brought to the games at the moment are unreal. This has not happened overnight. It has taken a lot of investment and time from the players. We are not there yet but we are getting a lot better. The committee will talk to Tom Parsons from the Gaelic Players Association later. He will confirm that we are certainly way better than we were, even five or six years ago, never mind going back decades. However, we still have a way to go. This integration process will definitely help us to get to that point and to really celebrate the elite camogie players around the country. That is our objective.

Professor Mary McAleese

I want to add something that runs in parallel with the issue the Deputy raised. It is entirely admirable that people who would play one day and train four days a week would then be involved in fundraising. I take his point that they should be absolved from that burden. However, all over the country, people are being, as far as possible, absolved from that burden. Behind players, coaches, referees, managers and all the structure based around playing, there is another body of people who are exactly that, the fundraisers. These are the people who run the committees and organise events such as the 5 km race or the night at the greyhound racing. There is literally an army of people there doing exactly that. This feeds into the question of how the Government and local authorities can help us. The GAA is not asking Government to fund everything on its own. The GAA has a very long history of providing its own funding because it did not have the resources from elsewhere. It gets sponsorship in but it also leverages a lot of local money. This is one of its great strengths and worth emphasising here today.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

By the way, I did sponsor the team, just in case people thought I was being stingy and that is what I was giving out about. Is there any concern about dilution of the individual brands? Like the GAA, camogie and ladies Gaelic football have built up very good brands. Each brand has a strong social media presence in their own right. It is probably something for down the line but is there any concern about dilution?

Mr. Brian Molloy

From a camogie perspective it is something that will have to be part of the discussions. It will be part of the focus to make sure about this. When we had initial conversations with people about it, 90% were in favour. However, that means there were 10% who had concerns. Some of those concerns were about getting lost within the larger association. Part of our job is to put the structures in place to make sure that camogie and ladies Gaelic football is not lost in this transition.

It is worth noting that it is not the case that the current GAA is simply going take over camogie and ladies Gaelic football. The current GAA will cease to exist. It will be restructured and there will be significant changes implemented in what is currently the GAA. We are using the existing corporate structures of the GAA to move to a new, singular, Gaelic games association. In this, camogie will play a central and very visible part. Overall, we are cognisant of that risk and we will make sure it does not happen.

Professor Mary McAleese

One of our major responsibilities is to ensure that it is integration, not inundation. We do not want the codes that are integrating to be overwhelmed. We do not want the smaller of the three associations to be overwhelmed by one. From day one, that was on the table. It is something that we have looked at very carefully to best manage it and ensure that, in an integration model, that camogie and ladies Gaelic football have full profile, authority and as much autonomy as needed over their own rules and the development of their own code. We also had to consider how to make sure that their visibility within the organisation is not just maintained, because that would not be enough, but developed. As we have talked about it more, the realisation has grown that this is a tremendous opportunity for women in Gaelic sports. It will allow them to make available to this new GAA their skill, experience, insight, wisdom, power and energy. They will do so as full equals. We will rely on structure but we will also rely on people to be strong, stand their ground and give the leadership that will help. The Deputy mentioned things like social media. There are various different ways of profiling but, at the end of the day, we want the people who really believe in this process and are quite determined to make it happen. We have seen these people and they are legion.

An Cathaoirleach

I sincerely thank the witnesses for being with us today and for being so rich with the information and so willing to share their experiences with us. It sounds like it is a very positive process that they are going through in the journey of integration. The collegiality comes shining through in the presentations.

Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.48 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

In our second session, we will continue our discussions regarding the integration of the LGFA, Camogie Association and the GAA. We will hear from the Gaelic Players Association, GPA and from representatives of GAA Scór, GAA Handball, GAA Referees, GAA Rounders and GAA Club Players. I warmly welcome them all to our committee room today.

I welcome Mr. Tom Parsons, CEO, GPA. He is joined by Gemma Begley, head of equality and players relations. On behalf of the committee, I also welcome the representatives from the GAA, namely, Aisling Groarke, Cormac Spain, David Britton, John Devaney, Iain Cheyne and Paula Magee. That is great; everybody now has been clearly identified.

The format of today's meeting is that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. I ask them to stick to that time, because our times have gone askew completely. Witnesses are probably aware that the committee may publish the opening statements on its webpage. This will be followed by questions from my colleagues on the committee, who will have four minutes of speaking time allotted to them.

Before we proceed to opening statements I wish to explain some limitations in regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references they may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect to the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

I propose that we now proceed to the opening statements. I will begin by asking Mr. Parsons to speak on behalf of the GPA. He has three minutes.

Mr. Tom Parsons

The GPA is the representative body for 4,000 male and female intercounty players in Ireland. Equality was added as an objective of the association when we integrated in 2020. Our vision was to "work towards equal investment, recognition and opportunities" for all players. I am proud to state the GPA has delivered gender equality across all of its areas from governance to the supports and resources we offer to male and female intercounty players.

Fundamentally, the GPA believes that Gaelic games can be a world leader in gender equality because of their amateur status. In 2021, we brought the landmark motion to the GAA congress calling for the integration of the national governing bodies, NGBs, leading to the commencement of the current integration process.

Reflecting on the GPA's journey, we believe the NGBs can find essential guidance for their journey from our own integration. We believe full integration was key to breaking down gender barriers and building an inclusive organisation. We learned the importance of prioritising equality, leadership, and equal representation in the GPA. I am extremely proud to say that today we have a thriving integrated player representative body. The key lessons from our journey were the need to champion equality in every decision; the importance of strong leadership; to ensure equal representation at all levels; thorough and interactive planning; and an equity-based funding model.

The GPA's successful integration journey serves as a model on a much smaller scale. We have had some engagement with the integration committee, although it was limited in its nature. We are fully committed to continued engagement with the governing bodies on their journey to date. It is important to note that players are considerable stakeholders, not just intercounty players but also club players, and that they are not bystanders to the decisions made for our games.

We believe the Government has provided a significant leadership role on gender equality in Irish sport. We thank the Government for the equalisation of grant funding for male and female intercounty players. This funding remains a significant recognition from the Government of the intercounty players' role and impact on society. The GPA administers this funding, working with the national governing bodies and Sport Ireland. This helps us to maintain an important independence from the NGBs. We gather independent data on player welfare and well-being, and we provide vital welfare services to players. The funding continues to provide a direct relationship between the Government and intercounty players across Ireland. We remain committed to continuing to support key national policies with respect to health, well-being and participation in sport across the country.

The recent Government policies guaranteeing gender representation on boards and ensuring similar access requirements for sporting facilities in receipt of public funding are again a recognition and an opportunity for boys and girls and men and women across the country. The GPA is keen to engage in the development of more policies that can enhance the equal treatment of male and female players.

Challenges do persist in the female intercounty game. That was highlighted last year in the GPA's State of Play report, which stressed the need for minimum standards and funding. We aimed to collaborate with the associations for interim solutions en route to integration, which did lead to a campaign highlighting the current inequality. In response to this, the first female charter to ensure minimum standards was implemented in 2024, supported by increased funding from the GAA. That is welcome. It is a starting point. It is an indication of the need for interim initiatives while we strive for integration and equal treatment.

I want to emphasise the players' collective right to independent representation, and its importance at every step along the journey. The GPA would like more formal recognition from the Government and relevant entities, and the committee's support in this endeavour would be much appreciated.

The GPA will continue to support progress towards integration so that every girl and boy and man and woman playing our games is treated equally. The language in the motion referred to equal recognition, investment and opportunity. That is very important. The key priorities for us going forward will be to ensure equal treatment of men and women when it comes to standards and recognition; to ensure engagement with players who are stakeholders in the decisions that are made; and to ensure key milestones are met such as a policy on similar access, the implementation of minimum standards and the introduction of a joint fixtures calendar.

I would like to highlight some of the challenges raised by the governing bodies, namely, the three Fs - fixtures, finances and facilities. Players often talk about what is performance and what is success. When we break down success into an equation, we always talk about two elements: one is capability and the second one is behaviours. The three Fs would fall under the capabilities of integration. The behaviours piece is all about values, mindset, attitude and leadership. In terms of behaviours, it is extremely important for intercounty players, all players and everybody in our Gaelic games to show strong role modelling in this journey. I thank members for their time.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Parsons very much. I now call on Ms Groarke and Mr. Spain, whom I believe are sharing their time.

Mr. Cormac Spain

Ms Groarke and I will give a perspective from club players on integration. I thank the committee for giving us this time. Our club, Cuala, is based in Dalkey in south County Dublin. Members might have heard of us before due to previous successes. We serve a wide community from Blackrock through Dún Laoghaire to Shankill. We have around 3,500 active members, placing us as one of the larger clubs in the county. Our club is very proud of our community and its members, and over the years we have built a wonderful environment, instilling Gaelic games and their rich culture.

In terms of how we have seen integration within our own club, Cuala has adopted what is called the "one club" model for more than ten years. This has proven to be extremely successful, with all club members, both male and female, involved in GAA, the LGFA and camogie reaping the benefits of an inclusive club set-up. There is equity across all club members. Our club registration fees are non-discriminatory and, logistically, all players, both male and female, are treated equally and are granted the same resources. In essence, despite having members from three different administrations the club can still successfully function as one unit. We have one club executive that is comprised of half female and half male.

Ms Aisling Groarke

Through a strong ethos focused on teamwork and inclusion, we see ourselves as a club of equals in terms of branding and communication with one sponsorship model for the club. In our experience as players, there are a multitude of benefits associated with integration. The first is player welfare. While our club offers equal opportunity to all players, male and female, the often intricate logistics of three separate administrations means that players, particularly female players, find themselves having to commit to one sport over another, or in some cases, dropping out entirely. There are real challenges faced by female dual players - at juvenile level through to adult. We have encountered hugely unfair choices with some of our female adult teams with regard to matches, as have other clubs in the country.

Integration would allow for player welfare to be looked after under one alliance, allowing pitches to be allocated fairly, games to be scheduled appropriately and, in turn, creating more opportunities for players. The second benefit is in the administration by club volunteers. As players, we see the crucial value of volunteers.

We rely on volunteers to complete endless paperwork, collect fees and registrations, as well as to act as coaches, players, administrators, physios and so on. With different forms of administration, including processes, in each association, as well as different courses being run and separate resources being distributed, the varying demands on our volunteers are unsustainable. Integration would, hopefully, reduce this current intricacy and allow for sustainability and growth.

Our third point, on equity, is that integration across all codes would allow for all clubs to follow a one-club model that sees equity for all members and allows members to access club facilities, resources and coaching through an equal and more inclusive practice as one unit. Such an inclusive practice will showcase clubs as more attractive to potential new members while also retaining current members. In 2018, 32% of Cuala members were female. As of 2024, with a continuing rise in membership, 50% of our members are female and 50% are male.

There will be challenges associated with integration. We believe, however, that the benefits heavily outweigh any potential hurdles and see this integration as crucial and necessary to allow Gaelic games to thrive while looking after the members. We thank the committee members for their time today and for providing an opportunity to allow a players' perspective in this significant discussion. Go raibh míle maith agat.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Groarke and call Mr. Britton.

Mr. David Britton

I am the head of GAA Handball, a role I commenced in late 2022. GAA Handball welcomes the opportunity to address the committee on the subject of integration within the GAA.

This year is a flagship one for GAA Handball. Not only will we be hosting two world championships, in wallball and 4-wall, but we also celebrate our centenary as a member of the GAA. GAA Handball is a proud and vibrant sport with a rich history and tradition. At the core of this tradition is our membership of the GAA family. In early 2022, GAA Handball was integrated into the national GAA coaching and games development department. The impact of this integration has seen us witness progressive change occur within our organisation. As part of the integration process, a structural review of GAA Handball was conducted. The review concluded that new professional structures were required at a staffing level and that additional changes were required to the volunteer structures, primarily at ard comhairle level.

Since the beginning of the integration process, GAA Handball has seen the introduction of an entirely new staff team and staffing structure in the last 18 months. The new structure has seen the creation of three regional development officers to assist clubs and county boards at grassroots level, while developing stronger internal links through coaching and games development and also external stakeholder relationships with local sports partnerships, schools, third-level institutions and community groups to help to grow and develop the game. A new head of handball, a new competitions and membership officer and a new centre co-ordinator have also been introduced as part of this new structure. Ulster GAA has also introduced a second handball development officer within the province to work alongside the Ulster development manager.

The new professional structures within GAA Handball have already shown a measurable impact within the last 18 months. Over 300 different handball programmes have been delivered nationwide to just under 20,000 participants. The recommendations relating to the volunteer structures within GAA Handball, which emanated from the structural review, necessitated a suite of reforms being adopted within GAA Handball’s constitution. In February 2023, at national congress, all 13 proposed motions were carried by the membership. The adoption of these reforms has led to a complete restructuring at ard comhairle level and has seen the following impacts occur. New positions on the ard comhairle have been created for a national treasurer, a chair of the ladies committee, a chair for a PRO committee and a chair for a coaching and games committee. Eight new sub-committees of the ard comhairle were also created, including a finance and audit committee, a governance and risk committee, a referees and officials committee and a coaching and games development committee. New independent ard comhairle members have also been introduced.

Prior to the implementation of these reforms, GAA Handball had faced several governance challenges and was struggling to meet the compliance and governance standards set out by Sport Ireland and the code for good governance in sport. I am delighted to report that through a combination of hard work and amazing support from the GAA and Sport Ireland, GAA Handball has now reached the compliance standards required by Sport Ireland.

None of the aforementioned progress would have been possible without the support of the GAA. In particular, Tom Ryan, Shane Flanagan and his team and the various departments in the GAA have been invaluable to GAA Handball on our integration journey. GAA Handball acknowledges and thanks the GAA family for all their support and help over the last year and a half in helping GAA Handball implement these crucial changes.

I welcome continued collaboration with the steering group on integration to leverage the experience garnered by GAA Handball in our integration process in strengthening the integration process of the Camogie Association, the GAA and the LGFA.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Britton. I now call Mr. Devaney.

Mr. John Devaney

I thank the committee. I am a member of the Bredagh club in County Down and I chair the GAA in the county. I have also recently been appointed chair of the national GAA referees development committee. I am also a member of the central referees appointments committee.

The primary responsibility of the referees development committee I chair is the selection of referees for intercounty games and for the development, training, and welfare of match officials. While our core remit focuses on the games at intercounty level, we will also develop guidelines and best practice for refereeing across the association. Our committee comprises personnel with considerable experience and interest in the field, including former intercounty referees who have officiated at the highest level, administrators within clubs and counties across the four provinces and beyond and others who have an insight or interest in this area.

A key priority for us will be to engage as three organisations in developing a specific plan for refereeing and to bring about a model that works for all codes. The steering group on integration established working groups in late 2023, as previously highlighted here. Within the plans for 2024, there will be the establishment of a working group specifically focused on referring. This working group will bring together representatives from each of the organisations in a formal way to develop this specific plan. For me, there are many reasons why amalgamation should and will happen. To all intents and purposes, we look the same, we do the same and we are the same. Children and young people joining our games for the first time see no distinguishable administrative and structural differences. That is how it should be for all of us as we look forward.

There are significant challenges in achieving an integrated structure that will maximise our potential in the growth in, and retention of, the numbers of referees to officiate across all codes. A referee's job is a tough one and there are high expectations from players, coaches and spectators. The most recent GAA strategic plan, which has a clear eye on integration, highlights the priority of maximising participation, including for referees. It sets the challenge of allocating the resources needed to grow the pool of referees, overhaul the culture of respect towards them and improve officiating standards. It aims to achieve this by consolidating and co-ordinating all learning programmes under the umbrella of one training unit to ensure quality learning experiences for referees.

Referees will need to be recruited and retained in higher numbers. What we want to achieve is a place where they will be able to officiate to the higher standards, arising from an increased investment in training and development, and experience significantly higher levels of respect from players, managers, supporters and followers. The most significant related challenge will be around the arrangement and management of fixtures. That in itself is also related to facilities and finance. To many officials at club, county, provincial and national levels, there are simply not enough days in the week at present for our games and competitions, but none of these challenges are insurmountable. We know that integration will require change, goodwill and an intention to work together for the good of all. Go raibh maith agat.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Devaney and call Mr. Cheyne.

Mr. Iain Cheyne

I will speak with a specific focus on integration and how this is an area already working well within the association. GAA Rounders has grown rapidly over the last six years. What once started with three championships, in senior men, ladies and mixed, has developed into a total of nine divisions, spanning junior, intermediate and senior championships. This growth is replicated in the number of clubs registered with the association. In the same six-year period, GAA rounders-registered clubs have prospered, increasing from 13 to over 60 in 2024, with 11 new clubs already registered this year alone.

Some 19 counties have adopted the code of rounders in men’s, ladies’, mixed and juvenile categories.

Currently, GAA Rounders is set up like a large county structure. As the organisation continues to grow, a move to provincial-style structures will be required to ensure the correct level of support is afforded to all clubs. Currently, among the championships, more than 300 national fixtures are held in any given championship year. In addition, national events for novice adult clubs and our newest junior clubs are also undertaken to help them gain experience in the game. Rounders may be a unique Gaelic game in structure, but it replicates similar skills used in football and hurling. Its non-contact nature is a welcome difference. Furthermore, it has afforded non-traditional GAA groupings the opportunity to play rounders with like-minded individuals, form clubs and, importantly, be a part of the Gaelic games family.

The competition structure of GAA Rounders consists of a men’s championship, a ladies’ championship and a mixed championship. Indeed, it is the GAA mixed championship which demonstrates the integrated nature and unique selling point of GAA Rounders. Differing from all other Gaelic codes is the fact that both male and females can play alongside one another on the same team. This inclusive nature of the mixed championship brings families together and speaks volumes of the underlying ethos of the GAA organisation, underscoring that GAA Rounders is a sport for all.

Currently, GAA Rounders uses facilities which are GAA-owned, but plans include the provision of GAA Rounders-specific facilities in the not-too-distant future. As an example of inclusion, the shared membership system, which is already used by all codes, has been very positive. Rounders now has access to shared services through the Croke Park team, which has been very beneficial. Having people in specialised roles who can advise and guide us on how to promote and manage an organisation will only improve when the whole organisation is fully integrated into one GAA family.

An Cathaoirleach

Finally, I call Ms Paula Magee, who is speaking on behalf of GAA Scór.

Ms Paula Magee

A Chathaoirligh, go raibh maith agat as ucht an deis seo teacht os bhur gcomhair inniu. I thank the Cathaoirleach for this opportunity to come before the committee today. To give some background on GAA Scór, it was originally established by the GAA in 1969 with the aim of promoting Ireland's traditional pastimes and culture, while offering club members a chance to meet up, have fun and represent their club during the winter months while football and hurling had ceased.

There are eight disciplines in Scór that cover all aspects of Irish culture: céilí dancing, solo singing, ballad group, recitation and storytelling, novelty act, instrumental music, set dancing and table quiz. The competition is divided into two age levels, Scór na nÓg for young people under 17 and Scór Sinsir for those over 17. Scór caters for people of all ages and all abilities.

Like the all-Ireland football and hurling championships, clubs taking part in Scór run off competitions among the club’s own members initially, with the winners going forward to divisional or district board stage when deemed necessary. They then go on to the county final. The winners go on to the provincial final and finally on to the all-Ireland final. It is important to note also that Scór is run bilingually, i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla, and that participants in the oral competitions are invited to perform in Irish and English.

Both male and female members have taken part in Scór since its inception in 1969. Although data had not been formally collected, it would be accurate to say that participation is 50:50 between males and females. In 2023, a total of 378 clubs took part in Scór Sinsear, of which 355 were GAA clubs and 23 LGFA and An Cumann Camógaíochta clubs. In the same year, 510 clubs took part in Scór na nÓg, of which 440 were GAA clubs and 70 LGFA and An Cumann Camógaíochta clubs. Although the 2023 Scór participation figures consisted mostly of GAA clubs, it is important to note that many of these clubs adopt a one-club model in which all Gaelic games come under one umbrella within the club. These clubs were represented by footballers, hurlers, camogie players, rounders players and handball players at Scór within the club, regardless of their gender. It is important to note also that standalone GAA clubs have male and female members representing the clubs. Integration between males and females has always been a feature of Scór, with equal participation and involvement in administration, promotion, etc., by both males and females.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses very much. I will now go to our colleagues. I ask them to be mindful of the time. They have approximately four minutes each but I will try to be as flexible as possible.

Senator Shane Cassells

There are a lot of witnesses to try to get through. I thank Ms Magee for the work of GAA Scór. My own club, Navan O'Mahonys GAA, qualified for the Leinster final at the weekend.

I will start with Mr. Parsons. The GAA president, Jarlath Burns, spoke about the costs of intercounty teams, which is north of €40 million, and described it as “unsustainable”. He is right. In the context of the debate on integration with the LGFA and the Camogie Association, he spoke about bringing everyone down. It is not a case that a bar has been set and everyone should come up to that bar because that would impact the amateur ethos. Intercounty managers are driving those costs; there are no two ways about it. Mr. Parsons spoke about seeking the elimination of pre-season tournaments. I disagree because, even this season, managers whose teams were competing in those pre-season intercounty tournaments, had their teams playing intercounty matches behind closed doors the day after.

The context for what is driving the costs of intercounty teams is that teams are having are four, five or more training sessions per week and all the backroom teams of 20 to 30 members are being paid. This is a runaway train that is being driven by managers. It is not a case that we are not looking after our players. The GPA, GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association all want to look after the players. We now have the GAA president saying we need a task force on amateurism. There is an issue here for the broader GAA family regarding the promotion of our native sport and culture. I ask Mr. Parsons for his comments on what the uachtarán said earlier.

Mr. Tom Parsons

Context is important, too. For half the year, intercounty players are club players and are treated the same as other club players. For the other half of the year, they are intercounty players, which is different because it pulls in players from all over the county. I am from Mayo, for example, because work was not in Mayo, we had 12 players living in Dublin. There is also the load to be able to play at that level. It does have a certain cost.

There are 2,200 clubs as well. If you talk to any club, it will say the minimum budget for a senior club team is €40,000 or €50,000. There is €100,000 of the club-----

Senator Shane Cassells

I have my club accounts here. We spent €290,000 last year, of which €100,000 was on team expenses and the rest was on running the club. We still managed to make a profit. That was my club alone.

Mr. Tom Parsons

There are 2,200 clubs, so you are talking about €200 million for the club scene as well. When we look at the intercounty game, we cannot forget about the return on investment. We need to find efficiencies. To go back to euro and cents, Mr. Burns noted that €75 million is reinvested. When we consolidate the return provincially and through counties, all the infrastructure that is generated is from the intercounty game. That is important to mention, although it is not to say that we do not need to find efficiencies. I have spoken to the county board chairman in Mayo and players. I asked them to compare 2015 with now and to say how much more is available. More is available but it is actually not an awful lot more. Ten years ago, in 2015, the figure was €20 million but there has been inflation over the last ten years. The hotel room we used to stay in before playing in Croke Park ten years ago cost €150 per night. It now costs €320 per night. The plate of food we used to get cost €9 per player but now costs €16 per player. We cannot forget that. Even if we had done nothing over the last ten years-----

Senator Shane Cassells

It is going to go up.

Mr. Tom Parsons

-----that €20 million was going to be higher.

Do we have to find efficiencies? Absolutely. Do we centrally procure the playing equipment we wear? No. Do we have a central framework-----

Senator Shane Cassells

I am not asking about the debate on efficiencies. I am asking about intercounty managers who are driving a game towards professionalism by trying to get to what they see as X level. They are increasing the number of training sessions.

I accept Mr. Parsons's point. You could stand still and costs will still go up. Maybe that should be called out. Equally, if he is calling for the elimination of the pre-season tournaments and if the uachtarán is talking about the need to bring things back, even if those intercounty tournaments are got rid of, they are still playing closed-door games anyway. They are still doing it. Should the GPA be calling out what the managers are doing with their own players? Mr. Parsons made his comments in the case of player welfare. Should he be calling out the managers and whether they have concern for player welfare?

Mr. Tom Parsons

Absolutely. We have worked with the GAA to embed a contact hours policy. We put a motion in this year to establish a competition load policy because the load on intercounty players is higher now than ever. We have to think why managers are putting this pressure on winning at all costs. It is because of the consequences. If a person comes in as manager of the Mayo football team, there is an expectation on him or her to bring us to the promised land, or damn close to it. Those expectations and public pressure, which we are all responsible for because we want our counties to do well, are pushing those consequences down to the players.

We need to work with the GAA on what the key performance indicators, KPIs, of success are. That must be player welfare, player retention and looking after players. The GPA and intercounty players get a bad rap that intercounty players are talking all this with expenses. I can assure the committee that 2,800 players, who are active for nine months with four training sessions per week, works out at approximately €17 in travel expenses per player. We really need to look at what players receive. We did a student report. It says that 32% of our intercounty players are in serious financial difficulty because 62% feel they do have the time for part-time work. We absolutely need to look at the sustainability of the amateur game. That is the responsibility of the national governing body and county boards. Managers report to county boards.

Senator Shane Cassells

Absolutely, but my point is-----

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator Cassells to conclude soon.

Senator Shane Cassells

-----that things are made up by people. They are made up by managers and players. Managers are asking their players to give X amount and pushing them. In fairness to the GAA, the new uachtarán is saying that we need an amateur task force to actually take that back. The GPA is the players' representative body and I am talking about asking the players whether they feel they are being pushed in the wrong direction by managers, who Mr. Parsons is saying need to meet the expectations of county boards or the perceived perception of fans.

Mr. Tom Parsons

The KPIs for managers and the relationship of the managers and the county board, the protection of those KPIs-----

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Parsons but we have to conclude there. I call Senator Malcolm Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank all the witnesses. This is obviously a very important issue around bringing the associations together as one but also particularly around enhancing women's sport. I am going to focus on the younger people who are here, namely, Ms Aisling Groarke and Mr. Cormac Spain. As for Mr. Spain's question on Cuala GAA, yes, we have heard of it. Our parliamentary colleague, Deputy Devlin, never shuts up about Cuala GAA and therefore, we are very much aware of it.

From their perspective, in terms of their access to sporting codes in both the GAA and other codes, do they think male and female players are treated in the same way? Are there things they believe can be done at club or organisational level to help to improve or to bridge any gaps? I will put that question to Ms Groarke first and then to Mr. Spain after.

Ms Aisling Groarke

I am a dual player and my brother is also a dual player. I am really lucky that I am a member of Cuala GAA. I have not necessarily felt that inequality in terms of facilities because of the one player policy. As for load, however, there definitely is a difference. I train six days per week and have matches on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I am expected to play two full games, whereas my brother trains four days per week and has one match every fortnight. There definitely is a bigger workload on females. With the one club policy coming in, it would make a huge difference to have that equality at fixture level as well.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Before I call Mr. Spain to answer, does Ms Groarke find any issues around facilities?

Ms Aisling Groarke

I do not necessarily think so, due to the club that I am in. Many of my friends in college and in other clubs definitely experience that through more expensive membership costs for women and the perhaps preferential treatment going to men for available pitches. I have been really lucky to be a member of Cuala GAA and I have not experienced that at all.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is good.

Mr. Cormac Spain

While it is case by case per club obviously, for our club we have access to seven pitches, two of which are primarily for camogie and ladies' football. Men cannot use them just because of the size. There are three or four pitches that the men use for hurling and football.

I only play hurling as I was not good enough for football and had to stop it. From my perspective as a male player, Ms Groarke, who is not an intercounty player, trains six times a week. The demands are still there for a club player. Looking from the perspective of retention of players, which is particularly at the forefront of a lot of people's minds in keeping young females in sport and making sure they continue with sport into adulthood, that is not really sustainable. However, if this is part of the integration and if we are all under one umbrella whereby clubs can perform as one unit, we will be able to hold on to players, particularly young female players, far more efficiently and successfully.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the witnesses for coming before our Oireachtas committee. Obviously, we make recommendations to the Minister and to the Government on Government policy. Some of it is on the funding side and some is on other aspects of Government policy. What are the recommendations that Mr. Spain and Ms Groarke would like to make, whether it be in regard to the educational system, sports facilities or anything else, to ensure that teenagers and young people generally - and young females in particular because we do have a concern with young females leaving - continue on with sport?

Ms Aisling Groarke

Role models are incredibly important. It is really important that secondary schools focus and I think physical education should be 100% non-optional. It should be a mandatory thing. It is important to get parents engaged in their children as well. Especially with young girls, their three most influential parties are parents, friends and role models. It is about giving girls someone to look up to. I know this was discussed in the previous session. Perhaps a pathway for girls could be created. There should be more of an emphasis on continuing and showing that there is a way to continue.

Mr. Cormac Spain

I am a primary school teacher. I teach sixth class in an all-girls school. For me, looking down the line, they are coming into a great standard that we have set across the LGFA and the Camogie Association in particular for what they are involved with. The FAI has done good stuff in recent years in keeping young girls in sport.

As for the background to the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association, we are still relying on volunteers. For our club, we are looking at what our volunteers are currently doing, whether that is sustainable, whether we are putting them under too much pressure and whether there is access to resources that can relieve them in a way. We are continuing that culture of welcoming volunteers and hanging onto them rather than somebody coming into our club, potentially walking into a logistical nightmare and leaving after a year and a half of doing it. It is about how we hold onto that, whether that is a case of extra funding towards clubs or a pathway, like Ms Groarke said. That is my view of it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I will be cheeky and ask one final question which is precisely related to Ms Groarke's question. Who do she think are good role models for young people in sport now? They can be in the GAA or across any codes.

Ms Aisling Groarke

It can be as simple as transition year students being role models for girls transitioning into first year of school. It can be people who are still in the club. It does not necessarily have to be an all-star player. It can be as easy as girls who they can see and understand that this is doable; they can continue doing the junior certificate and exams and can continue playing. It is making it so they can set their sights on something and then achieve that.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

We might let Mr. Spain say who, for the primary students, are there.

Mr. Cormac Spain

Katie McCabe is a really good one, obviously being outside of a GAA background. For our own club, Jennifer Dunne and Martha Byrne have been involved in the recent successes of the ladies' football team in Dublin. They are exceptional role models. Were I to point anyone in the right direction - this obviously is with a huge Dublin and Cuala bias to it - Jennifer and Martha are showing, through sticking to it with the right resources, how successful a player can be. They are smashing it to be honest.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Spain and Senator Byrne. I call Senator Carrigy, who has four minutes. How close can you get to that?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I thank the Chair. I put on record that I am a former member of the ard chomhairle in Croke Park; I was there for five years. I first will put a quick question to Mr. Parsons on the GPA and Professor McAleese mentioned it earlier. In discussions it has had previously about the pot of money which is there and is supported by the Government to support intercounty players both male and female - and rightly so - it has said that should all associations, including camogie, etc., come in, that whatever that pot is would be shared equally. Can he make a comment on that? Also, what challenges did the association face in coming together recently? Is there anything that Mr. Parsons could highlight that was an issue that has been ironed out but that could help with ultimate full integration?

With regard to the club, six nights a week of training is not acceptable. We highlighted intercounty players training four nights a week or more. Ms Groarke mentioned she was training six nights a week and playing two games. As we do not want to see any of our youth burned out as they come into older teams, it is something that needs to be looked at nationally, where players are training too often.

Mr. Spain pointed out that his club has field facilities allocated specifically for camogie and ladies' GAA which is very positive. Are there any challenges within their club which Ms Groarke or Mr. Spain think need to be improved such as, for example, facilities? Has it proper facilities for all-female participation via dressing rooms, shower areas or whatever it may be? The club witnesses might make a comment on that. I seek answers to both of those questions first before I ask any more questions.

Mr. Tom Parsons

I thank the Senator. When Mary McAleese asked us would we be able to share the resources that are available to intercounty players, our response was "Yes". Our response was that we already have. In 2019, we had GPA resources for player development and player welfare which amounted to about €1,200 per player. That included scholarships, educational support, career advice and medical and welfare advice with 24-hour counselling lines. When you add that up for intercounty players, it added up to €4.6 million to serve 2,100 players. We merged and integrated in 2023 and we now serve 4,000 players. In 2023 we had less revenue at €4.1 million compared with 2019, when we had €4.6 million. It works out now with female players for development programmes, that we have €889 per player. Not every player will avail of every service but we spend €1.7 million on educational services. For example we have over 900 student athletes who apply for scholarships. Before we integrated, the lads would have been receiving a scholarship payment of €1,500. Now all the applicants, men and women receive a scholarship payment of about €1,000 to €1,100 so we have already cut our cloth and integrated.

I am very proud to say that when the GPA and Ms Begley, who is beside me here, met initially, the Women's Gaelic Players Association had about €150,000 and we had 40 times that. We integrated and shared governance with a 50:50 board, a 50:50 national executive committee, and 50:50 representation of officers. We have spent more on female intercounty scholarships then we have for the men because the demographic of female players is about 50% students.

When we look at this, it is fantastic that the intercounty game can bring so much revenue back to grassroots and we are all club players and are all volunteers. I am a player and am still a volunteer. I still go and coach. It is really important to know that of the students playing the intercounty game and who are playing at high level - in Croke Park - 62% of them do not have time for part-time jobs. They are really financially struggling. It was important that we integrated and that we invested money in female players.

The Dillon Quirke Foundation was launched yesterday. Saoirse Lally of Mayo came on as an ambassador. Had we not integrated before the NGBs, she would not have been cardiac screened and would not have received funding to undergo a heart operation. This is a matter of life with some of the services that we provide for players.

We believed that intercounty players should be treated equally. I am delighted to hear that at club level, there is a strong sense of equality. The inequality has always been at a vast cost when you are pulling players at a county level. The big inequality has been at a county level. We have cut our cloth at the GPA and we are really looking forward to the governing bodies integrating by 2027. In the interim, we cannot wait until 2027 to address the minimum standards. The GAA has given a contribution in the interim to get a minimum standard for female players in terms of some out-of-pocket expenses and we need to build on that on the road to integration.

Ms Aisling Groarke

In terms of facilities, there have been great strides in recent years. However I remember previously it would be the most basic things. The toilets would not be clean or necessary things like the sanitary bins were the things that would cause problems. One club person I know does it now, in that she will go in and clean the toilets and make sure there are sanitary products and a sanitary bin. Things like that make a huge difference to players. A level of respect is required and it makes such a difference when these things are available to you.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Are there any challenges the witnesses foresee for the three NGBs from what they face in the club?

Mr. Cormac Spain

There are always going to be hurdles with them but what we are saying is that we happy enough that they will be overcome. To take Ms Groarke's point, it is not always the case that there are toilets or changing rooms available, particularly for female athletes. They are not going out every single time they play a game and getting these facilities. There have been many games that I would say Ms Groarke can recall, where there has not been a toilet available or a dressing room available. It is standards like that that would be at the forefront from a player's perspective of initial problems that we need to get over. It is about making sure those resources are available for players.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

In terms of referees, I would like to welcome Mr. John Devaney, who is a neighbour of mine from Longford. From a refereeing point of view what challenges does he see? I know that at home in Longford, females at the clubs regularly are looking to get people to take up refereeing. I know a lot of lads who referee both codes. What do you see as the challenge for being able to provide referees for all the fixtures when we integrate in 2027?

Mr. John Devaney

The biggest challenge is recruitment of referees. The question is why someone would want to be a referee in some respects. About 35% of GAA match officials also cover ladies' football and camogie as well. We find in our own county that some referees prefer that, as there is less likelihood of receiving the same type of abuse in ladies' sports as they would in men's Gaelic football or hurling. All of those things are related to one another. Trying to bring about a bigger pool of referees relates to the fact that we still have a culture within our sports whereby some things are seen by some as being acceptable when they should not be. Going forward in integration, we have not properly addressed this as yet because the three organisations have had their challenges to get to this particular point. We are at the stage now where we are addressing some specifics and refereeing will be one of them.

Part of this will be making sure the standards and numbers will be there in all of the codes. It will also be about enhancing what we do and what we have in terms of refereeing, and about offering a better opportunity to people to come into the role of being match officials.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It is an interesting point that referees face less abuse in ladies' GAA.

Mr. John Devaney

I would not say there is none in ladies' sport but in general the feedback we get from referees is that this may be the case. I have seen it, of course, at ladies' football or camogie games where referees do suffer some levels of abuse and there is a whole scale of it. It is still a cultural issue in our games that we have to properly address.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

What are the main challenges for Scór, rounders and handball? At present they sit within the GAA organisation, based in Croke Park. What challenges do the witnesses see for their groups? What do they see as the benefits of full integration?

Mr. David Britton

We celebrate our centenary this year. Recently we came under the governance of the GAA's coaching and games development department. We have extra access to the internal departments of the GAA. This has been significant to help us on the integration journey. In 2019 the GAA created a purpose-built national handball and community centre. There is the financial help in the background. We see ourselves as a sport that is integrated from a gender perspective. We had our national small alley finals last weekend. The ladies' senior final took place before the males' final took place. They all happened in conjunction. The Minister of State with responsibility for sport was present and said he would like to see more of this in mainstream sport as a whole, whereby the two finals would happen together. At a grassroots level or lower level we could probably do with a little bit of extra support with infrastructure. Everybody is probably at in and around the same level. Everyone is looking for additional support. As a whole, our story over the past year and a half is that additional integration in the GAA through coaching and games has been a massive bonus.

An Cathaoirleach

We must conclude Senator Carrrigy's slot.

Mr. Iain Cheyne

The fixtures will be a lot tighter. It comes back to what everybody else has been saying today. There will be equity in resources. There will be more support for the one governance model, where everybody on the ground at club level will feel they have an equal share of the resources, time and pitch access.

Ms Paula Magee

Integration has very much been part of Scór since inception. I see it as a good avenue to further promote our Scór activities for singers and entertainers. Perhaps organisations do not realise what we do and what we offer. I see all of the clubs coming together as very positive for Scór and it can enhance it even more.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the witnesses for coming before us. Mr. Britton mentioned the handball integration process. What advice would he give the GAA, the GPA and camogie?

Mr. David Britton

It would be to work as closely as they can with the various committees and the executive structure that exists. The GAA is a very busy organisation. It spans the length and breadth of the country and has a large membership. There is great interest in what would be seen as the two core games of GAA, which are hurling and football. There is also large interest in rounders. Particularly in the past year, interest in GAA handball has been building. These sports cater to different needs. Handball is an individual sport. There are doubles versions but primarily it is an individual sport. It is an indoor sport. It is a cradle-to-the-grave sport. We have five-year-olds playing it. Last year a 79-year-old won an Irish title. As has already been said, it is a non-contact sport. It caters for different people. I would say to embrace the model and embrace being part of the family and, like us, to use the various resources available to further the growth of the sport.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The GPA made a very interesting presentation in the audiovisual room in October on the challenges faced by county players. As the witnesses mentioned, the county players represent a large portion of the funding for GAA games. How do GPA members view the consultation process? What are their views on integration? What are the challenges for integration?

Ms Gemma Begley

We referenced in the opening statement that we have had limited opportunity to engage on the integration process. There was one presentation to the integration committee. We would love to play a more proactive part in sharing our story of all the steps we took. We have equalised everything. We have complete buy-in from the membership, which is a positive success story and something that should be used as a selling point for Gaelic games as a whole. We fully support further consultation on this. The ongoing challenges for our members are well referenced and well documented in terms of the gaps in welfare supports, facilities and finances. Thankfully, good progress has been made in terms of getting a charter in place this year, albeit at a lower level to start with.

Deputy Chris Andrews

There are various tiers between male and female in the charter.

Ms Gemma Begley

There are still different standards but we see it as the first step on the journey towards equality. We are grateful to see progress on it. We want to build on it. There will still be a difference in mileage expenses, the level of medical support and things like that. We are working proactively and collaboratively. We will continue to do our part to advocate for change and growth, particularly in these areas, and for closing the gaps that still exist in the two player charters. Even getting it off the ground this year has been a big step forward, brought about by the players using their voices collectively last year to bring it to the fore.

Deputy Chris Andrews

What advice would Mr. Spain and Ms Groarke give to the GAA? Ms Groarke mentioned the heavy load for training. My daughters are out six days a week. Last night they played camogie and they will play football tonight. They also have two training sessions a week for each sport. It is full on. What advice would Mr. Spain and Ms Groarke give to change that and reduce the load?

Mr. Cormac Spain

It would be to have player welfare at the forefront of any decision made. Is it for the benefit of the players? This is what we are based on. It goes back to the point I made that we rely on volunteers. We need to make life as easy as possible and keep it sustainable. Player welfare is a big issue for us.

Ms Aisling Groarke

My advice would be to take on the structure that men's dual players have. They have three training sessions a week where they focus on only one sport.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Week-on, week-off for each sport.

Ms Aisling Groarke

Exactly. This is rather than having two matches back to back. They focus on one sport for the week.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I would like to follow up. I get a sense there is a feeling there should be more consultation with the GPA and that the level of consultation with the GPA needs to be increased.

Mr. Tom Parsons

As we said, there are many complexities with intercounty games. Even in my club and in handball we see that equality is very organic. It becomes quite complex at intercounty level. When boys and girls go to the pitch on Saturday at age ten, 12 or 14 at club level they are treated equally. Once girls go to county level, unfortunately there is a gap. We have closed it a little bit compared to what it was last year but it is still a big gap. Intercounty players who are also club players and captains of clubs are important stakeholders. They are role models, as has been said.

We need to ensure the value proposition for inter-county players who do not want anything in return. I refer to the value proposition for being amateurs and for being role models. This is so we can generate the 83 cent in every euro that will go back to grassroots and make sure that it does not cost them the money to play. Last year, we were frustrated because there was a sense among players that if you are not middle class and you cannot afford to play, then Gaelic games are not for you. This is because there were no direct expenses for female players and they were picking up an awful lot of the bills. That is really important for us. Players will not be bystanders. Independent representatives of players and inter-county players are very significant stakeholders. For there to be any success in any initiative, you need to over-communicate and over-collaborate and I hope we can collaborate more with the governing bodies on this journey.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Andrews. Senator Carrigy may make a comment, but it will have to be really brief.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

This is about the comments that Mr. Parsons made. I come from a strong GAA background. To me, we are all members of one association. We all have an equal say. I do not think anyone has any higher say than anyone else, whether they are a club player, from GAA Scór, a GAA referee, etc. We are all volunteers, and we are all members of the association, so all our opinions are equal. That is my strongly held view. Mr. Parsons made a point about formal recognition by the Government. What does he mean by that? What mechanism would that be through?

Mr. Tom Parsons

The mechanisms would be through engagements with Sport Ireland, funding and policy. That would be really important. Around the world, we can see the importance of clear representation at a professional level, but also at an elite amateur level. It is really important that we have that independent representation. There can be a stronger link between the Government, Sport Ireland and the players associations and I would like to explore that. I invite any advice from Government members on how we can formalise that. Again, inter-county players do receive funding from the Government. It is important that we support Government policy, and we do that when it comes to health and participation. Yet, if we were to establish more of a formal engagement and recognition from Sport Ireland and the State, it would be mutually beneficial.

An Cathaoirleach

I will have to conclude the debate and discussion there. I thank our witnesses so much, and I also thank them for their forbearance. We did have a delayed start, but I do think it has been a very useful engagement. I thank them all very much.

That concludes our engagement on this matter. I ask our witnesses to withdraw from the room as quickly as possible because there is more private business to do with our colleagues and we are under time constraints. I will briefly suspend the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 4.53 p.m. and resumed in private session at 4.54 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.04 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 April 2024.