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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 2007

Rural Transport Initiative: Discussion with Vintners Federation of Ireland.

The joint committee is in public session to discuss the expansion of the rural transport initiative with the Vintners Federation of Ireland. I welcome the VFI representatives, Mr. Paul Stevenson, president, Mr. Tadhg O'Sullivan, chief executive, Mr. Seamus O'Donoghue, chairman of the legislative sub-committee, and Mr. Val Hanley, a member of the organisation's national executive.

I draw to the attention of witnesses the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose we hear a short presentation from Mr. Stevenson which shall be followed by a question and answer session with members.

Mr. Paul Stevenson

I record our thanks to the joint committee for its speedy response to our request for a meeting to discuss possible initiatives to deal with rural isolation.

The problem of isolation in rural Ireland is not a new one. The gradual erosion of public and other services in rural Ireland has been a feature of life for some time. We have seen the closure of post offices, schools, service stations, Garda barracks, creameries and even convenience and local shops. The problems associated with this gradual and continuing loss of services in rural Ireland were recognised by the Commission on Liquor Licensing which reported almost three years ago in April 2003. The commission was established to examine all aspects of the licensed liquor trade and related matters. On pages 76 and 77 of its final report, the commission observed:

The majority (71%) of public houses are located in small towns (with a population of 10,000 or less) or in open country and most of them (95%) are independently owned or family run businesses. Ireland's rural public houses are not merely drinking establishments. They contribute to the quality of life experienced by rural residents by serving as a social focal point in villages; providing an informal meeting place for friends and family and a formal meeting place for community groups and associations. Many double as a post office, grocery shop or small restaurants. Rural public houses bring direct employment to villages and towns throughout the country and also provide linkage jobs in furniture and refurbishment, entertainment and maintenance trades. They also contribute positively to the important tourism sector. Traditional Irish public houses are significant in perceptions of Ireland as a tourist destination and provide an ambience and social setting for tourists that are often uniquely Irish. In a submission to the Commission, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland (VFI) stated that many rural public houses barely generate a survivable income, while one in five public houses outside of Dublin have a turnover of less than €32,000 and about one in three less than €64,000. The VFI proposed the introduction of a rates relief scheme for rural public houses, similar to that which was introduced in the UK.

UK Experience: In the UK, the Government recognised the importance of public houses as essential community amenities and granted mandatory rates relief to village public houses. Provision was made under the Local Government Rating Act 1997 for mandatory and discretionary rate relief for non-domestic rates for certain rural general stores and post offices. The rationale was that these businesses played a special role in the life of the community and their loss would reduce the amenities available to rural communities and change the character of village life. The 1997 Act retained the right of local authorities to give hardship relief. It also allowed them to grant discretionary relief of up to 100% to any shop, post office or business, including public houses which (i) have a rateable value below a certain amount; (ii) are in a designated rural settlement of 3,000 people or less; or (iii) are of benefit to the community and whose loss would be detrimental to the quality of village life.

Conclusion and Recommendation: The Commission considers that public houses play an important economic and social role in rural villages and that recognition of that role might be given by way of rates relief. Rates relief, of a limited and focused nature, could increase the long-term viability of some rural public houses and facilitate their role in the preservation of rural services. The Commission recommends that consideration be given to the introduction of rates relief for rural public houses or other licensed premises within specified turnover limits and in designated areas of low population, particularly where a public house is the only gathering place in the locality and is specifically used in a social context for meetings, etc.

The Commission on Liquor Licensing recognised the important role that the local and rural pub can play in communities and the need to ensure its survival. The commission's recommendation was not based on any particular desire to help individual publicans, but rather recognised the role the rural pub plays and how essential its survival was and is to the rest of rural society. The VFI is of the view that consideration should be given to the introduction of some rate relief for pubs in rural Ireland as recommended by the Liquor Licensing Commission.

Many services apart from those provided by the rural pub have been lost to rural communities. I have already mentioned the post office, the shop, the Garda station and the rural creamery, the loss of which amenities has contributed significantly to an increase in rural isolation. That isolation has been greatly highlighted since the introduction of random breath testing. People are now more responsible in their approach to drinking and driving and thus find themselves less mobile. It is also the case that a sense of fear has been engendered by media hype about random breath testing in the morning. People fear that even if they have as little as one or two drinks in the evening prior to a good night's sleep, they are likely to be subjected to random breath testing and penalties the following day. While this view takes no account of the metabolism of the human body, fear is a factor which is not easily overcome.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland does not oppose and has not opposed the introduction of random breath testing. Many public statements, complaints and media headlines would suggest that we have, which is incorrect. However, random breath testing has highlighted the deficiency of public transport for every aspect of rural Ireland. Previously many citizens took a risk which they now fear and feel unjustified in doing. This has had an impact on a wide variety of social, cultural and economic activities.

While much media attention has been focused on the implications for public houses, there are many other facets of society which have been impacted upon negatively to as great an extent. Volunteerism has been greatly hindered by the absence of any form of transport at local and rural level. Those who engage in what might loosely be described as the corporal works of mercy are often unable to continue in the absence of any form of transport. People throughout the country have great difficulty unless they are car owners in their ability to visit the sick, one of the great corporal acts of mercy, attend a hospital appointment, maintain social contacts with friends and neighbours or overcome the inevitable isolation which flows from living in ever-diminishing communities.

Many small local clubs depend on a local pub to hold their meetings, plan their events and do all the things which make it possible for a small rural club to survive, prosper and provide an amenity. This applies to GAA, gun, soccer, angling and fishing clubs, greyhound breeders, as well as regattas, race and festival committees. The list is almost endless.

Similarly there are the needs of people whose social outlet might be a night at bingo or the cinema. Our purpose, therefore, is not about circumventing random breath testing. Neither is it about producing a begging bowl for State funding on matters solely related to rural pubs. This is about the survival of the rural community. The pub has a role to play and an investment to make in that survival plan. The drinks industry and any other industry supplying services to the local and rural community have a role to play and we are entitled to seek investment. Similarly, we want the Government and the Oireachtas to help and support.

This may be an opportunity to create some employment in local communities. It has been suggested that better use of school buses would solve our problems and there is no doubt that this is part of the solution. It is desirable that underutilised resources should be looked at. It is quite possible to encourage investment in community-based hackneys, taxis, mini-buses or people carriers if appropriate taxation and other matters are put in place. As an example, if a local community, group or club decides to provide a hackney for a local unemployed driver, surely it should be possible to set off the vehicle registration tax or the value added tax on the purchase of that vehicle? Unfortunately, the smaller vehicle is very clearly discriminated against in these circumstances. If the vehicle has less than 16 seats, there is no clawback for VAT on the purchase, while VRT clawback is restricted to vehicles with over 12 seats. Many people would be encouraged to invest and perhaps create employment at local level if a reasonable tax regime was put in place.

Where a business purchases a vehicle with 16 seats or more, there are very significant tax concessions. We believe that those concessions should be applied to smaller vehicles used for the purpose of providing a transport service at local level. We have, for instance, seen many publicans — our own members — purchasing seven, eight and ten-seater vehicles expressly for the purpose of providing transport home for their customers. However, they have been unable to gain VAT or VRT tax relief on that vehicle.

The public in rural Ireland is entitled to a reasonable transport service. We recognise and commend the existing, though limited, rural transport initiatives which are already in place. We also wish to place on record our recognition of the promise by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cúiv, that further funding will be made available to support further rural transport initiatives. We wish to declare our interest and our intention to help to develop any and all such proposals. We believe that, with the co-operation of the Oireachtas, industry and the trade, a transport service can be greatly increased and improved.

In order to achieve some movement in this regard, we would like to see two or three pilot projects initiated as soon as possible. We would see the licensed trade engaged in this process and in so far as it is of benefit to the industry, the industry should be contributing. A number of groups are willing and anxious to get involved around the country and we should not let the opportunity pass.

We do not see this as solely a matter of driving people to or from the pub. We see this as an essential service within the local community which will reap rich rewards for society, which has the potential to create employment and can significantly ease the burden of isolation with all the attendant social and health implications of that condition.

Finally, we believe it will be a recognition of the needs of rural society which feels, rightly or wrongly, that it has been ignored for too long. When members of this committee were elected to the positions they hold, they said they would and could make a difference. I urge them to show responsibility and make this difference today.

I thank Mr. Stevenson. We are grateful to him for his presentation. I now propose to take a number of questions from members.

I also thank Mr. Stevenson for his very passionate address and presentation. As an urban dweller, I have great sympathy with the case made by him. When the mandatory breath testing legislation was going through the Dáil, I made the point about the need to seriously examine transport systems, particularly rural transport systems. I am sure the delegation's urban cousins will tell it that it is also an issue in Dublin, although I accept that distances are not as long. There is no doubt that all pubs are hurting at this point.

I find it very instructive that this did not become an issue for any of us until recently and not as a result of any change in the requirements imposed by the drink driving laws but simply because of a change in enforcement. This tells us at least two things, namely, the extent to which we ignored the drink driving laws prior to this and that enforcement works. We should not forget about the purpose of this change in enforcement, which was to make roads safer, not to stop people drinking or meeting each other and families or friends getting together. Mr. Stevenson was right to make the point about community. Mobility and access to all sorts of services and other people are essential to a community and to the very nature of a society.

I also accept the point that the pub is a critical social nexus in Dublin and rural Ireland, where it is particularly important. In respect of the particular schemes raised by Mr. Stevenson, rates are a matter for local authorities. To be honest, I believe that door will not open for publicans. I cannot see any Government agreeing or directing local authorities to give rates relief to pubs. The arguments made by Mr. Stevenson, valid though they are, could be made by every local rural village business. No local authority wants or can afford to go down the road of abolishing rates for every premises nor would we want it to.

The fact that, as pointed out by Mr. Stevenson, VAT and VRT relief for larger buses is not available for smaller eight-seaters is an anomaly which should be examined. I will take this issue up with our own spokesperson because this is a nonsense. I am sure it is aimed at preventing fraud by large families who would use or pretend to use the vehicle as a business. I can see that this is an anomaly in a case like this and would be very much in favour of liberalising the laws anyway.

Every time I speak I am conscious that in Dublin, where there are masses of people going in the same direction, we have still not managed to provide a comprehensive bus service. Therefore, it will be an awfully long and difficult road for rural Ireland and rural pubs. In order to tackle the problem, which must be done, a considerable amount of lateral thinking will be needed and a multifaceted response may be required. One system will not suit every village. While I am very supportive of the extension of the rural transport initiative, I believe it will be suitable in some cases but not in others. As Mr. Stevenson argued, it cannot be just about pubs; it must be about rural life generally. Publicans will probably have to come to the table and be part of the solution. I am very much in favour of liberalising the bus licensing laws so that whoever identifies where a service is needed can obtain a licence to provide it. Are publicans willing to become involved? Every publican will not run a bus but perhaps a group of publicans could come together in villages and so on. Different responses will be required.

The number of pedestrian road deaths increased proportionally in January, which highlights that more people are walking home from the pub. Would publicans consider introducing a scheme to provide, for example, reflective armbands or vests, on which they could advertise? Pedestrians are particularly vulnerable on our roads and the increasing number of fatalities among them is becoming an issue. It is our business to ensure that road safety is improved and while this is not directly related to the presentation, this issue should be discussed.

Fine Gael is very supportive of finding solutions to the problems outlined by Mr. Stevenson. We tend to favour subsidies rather than tax concessions because they are more transparent. Their impact is also easier to measure so that we can know whether they need to be improved or reduced whereas we have bad experiences with tax concessions generally. They are murky and one does not know who benefits or the extent to which they benefit, or the cost to the taxpayer. Fine Gael will be supportive of anything that can be done.

I welcome the delegation and I thank Mr. Stevenson for his concise presentation. I would like to make a distinction between Dublin pubs and rural pubs. Most people in Dublin are within walking distance of a pub and this problem is not as significant as it is in rural areas. I come from County Cavan and I visited my home area recently. During the week it is extremely difficult to book a hackney cab. The drivers say it is not worth their while working during the week because there is not sufficient business. At the weekend, as happened when I visited, one is picked up by a transit van. However, to undertake a five-mile journey, one must travel between 20 and 25 miles, which is uncomfortable.

I regularly ask publicans in rural areas what business is like. One publican I spoke to last week told me about a man who drives a tractor and who used to call in for a pint every night while smoking his pipe and having a game of cards and so on. He has not appeared in the pub since random breath testing was introduced. It is a terrible pity that this is happening. The social element of the pub in a rural community is important, particularly for elderly people living on their own.

Traditionally in rural areas neighbours called in on each other in the evening before going out. People could set their watches by the neighbour calling and there was a big build up as they readied themselves to go out. This was very beneficial but does not happen anymore because people are frightened and it is not worth the hassle. They will not even take one drink and drive. I used to visit a rural pub where every Thursday was a great occasion because it was Irish night and people travelled miles for Irish dancing. These people were separated, widowed or single and it was a marvellous occasion. Between 100 and 150 people would attend but that is gone because people cannot get to and from the pub.

Reference was made to people walking home from the pub. People who walk to the pub drink three or four times more than they did when they drove and that is why they are being knocked down, which is also a problem. I knew a 96 year old man who died six months ago. His son used to collect him two or three times a week to bring him to the pub and the old man would have a couple of whiskeys and a chat with everybody. It was a great social outlet for him because he lived on his own but all of that is gone. I know of another man who drives his tractor through his farm to a gate across the road from the pub. He is lucky because he can walk across the road to the pub and that is how he manages.

I would support any initiative to provide transport in these areas but I do not know whether that would entice people back to the pub. Many rural pubs have closed while others do not open until 8 p.m. I attended a funeral in Kilkenny last week and, as I drove back to Dublin, I noticed that many pubs were closed. I do not know how the owners make a living.

I support the VFI's call for an initiative by the Minister. It must happen sooner rather than later. This issue could also place a significant burden on the Department of Health and Children because people could become mentally disorientated sitting at home looking into the fire. Many young people have turned to drinking wine at home before they go out. Wine is two or three times as strong as a normal drink served in a pub. They get brave and take off in the car because they are jizzed up when they leave the house. These issues must be taken on board. It is not as simple as a garda putting up his hand to stop a driver to blow into a bag. There is more to it than that.

I welcome the delegation. I live in the heart of rural Ireland and I fully appreciate that people who have only ever lived in a large town or city think that those of us living in rural areas are making this problem up, which is the greatest difficulty we face. If one is used to urban life, one could not imagine what is happening in rural areas. Pubs are not the only businesses affected. There is a direct parallel between what is happening to small publicans and what has happened to small farmers over the past 20 years who could not make a profit. When that happens, the business owner must do something else.

Everybody knew where the vintners stood on random breath testing but any right-thinking person would have to support it. If it saves an additional life, everybody will support it, and it has all the signs that it will. However, problems have been created in rural areas and that is why the VFI is before the committee. We would like to help the federation because there is a problem but addressing it is an entirely different matter. If this could be easily addressed, we would not be having this meeting. If people could buy a bus and make it commercially viable in a rural area, everybody would be at it. However, it is likely the service will have to be subsidised. Random breath testing planted this issue in the psyche of the nation and media coverage of this problem in rural Ireland has increased. We have had these problems for years and have tried to highlight them, with varying degrees of success.

Several parishes in east Galway have no rural bus service. In some cases services that operated seven days a week have been cut to two days. The bus from Tuam to Ballyforan is an example. In this context, the delegation is making a valid case to solve a problem.

There are important reasons the concept of the pub remains as it is. It is important that local people meet each other. Irish people are no different to any other people in the world. Why would the system be different in rural Ireland? The only mitigating factor is that there are not enough people to use the service. To deny them this service because there are not enough people is discriminatory.

Various Governments have designated certain areas as disadvantaged. The CLÁR programmes sought to regenerate areas in which there was a decline in population. This is linked to social matters to which the delegation referred.

Besides the elderly and those who are lonely, whose only point of contact is the pub, foreign workers who are badly needed in the economy would benefit from integration. The point they are most likely to meet at is a rural pub and it would be better if that conduit existed.

The delegation's comments regarding VRT and VAT should be addressed immediately. This could be controlled with the appropriate checks and balances. After five years, only one third of County Galway benefits from the rural transport initiative during the day. If we must wait a further 20 years for its implementation we will have serious problems. School buses finish operating at 5 p.m. I do not know what consortium one could build in parishes between the community council, vintners and others.

Can Mr. O'Sullivan develop the point about pilot projects and explain how local communities could become involved in them? A bona fide case has been made and it has nothing to do with random breath testing. We stand four square behind it. This concerns the fabric of rural society. The people who live and work in such areas are as valuable as those who reside elsewhere.

Deputy J. Ellis took the Chair.

I welcome the delegation and congratulate it on the presentation. I concur with all speakers and it is unusual that there is cross-party consensus. It is also unusual that those representing large urban areas on the east coast support a rural issue. While it does not concern the two Dublin Deputies they have a clear appreciation of the difficulty.

I was born in and live in a rural part of west Clare. I appreciate the points made by Deputy Brady because I know these people and the characters and tractors that no longer come to the pub. Many drove in the past on the premise that they would not get caught and in the misguided belief that they were not a threat to themselves or others because they drank four pints every two days. They do not believe this affects their capacity to drive but they are over the limit and in breach of the law.

The current Garda scrutiny targets these people more than the younger generation or those we refer to as boy racers. The older generation's respect for the law is such that the threat of getting caught has a greater effect. Young people drink a considerable amount of alcohol, take drugs and drive souped-up cars at high speeds, without the fear of those with more experience. Targeting these people is having an effect on pubs and the social life of young married couples.

For many years we spoke of rural decline, which prompted the CLÁR programme. Over the past years we have seen a surge in people seeking to live in rural Ireland and build a one-off house, a debate for another day. These couples live in areas within 30 miles of larger towns and urban areas. Both people work long hours and would like to drink on weekends if they can get a babysitter. If they live more than three quarters of a mile from the village they will not be able to walk home.

Another group involved in this issue comprises those whose families have grown up. They now have the opportunity to enjoy a social life and the only social occasion is to visit the local restaurant and pub for a meal and drinks. The problem is presented as applying to a lonely man living on the side of the hill. There are many other types of people affected by this and it helps the case of the delegation if these are included. I am referring, in particular, to married couples with children whose only opportunity to see each other is on Saturday night. They may need to have a few drinks before they can talk again.

There are good pilot projects linked to Finnerty's in east Galway and Brendan Grace's pub in Killaloe, which are helpful. Business in smaller villages, such as the one in which I live, is not enough to make such a scheme profitable. We need to consider incentives for the hackney business. What is preventing a local taxi business from developing in a village is the cost of insurance as that person is treated in the same way as if he or she has a taxi in the city of Limerick or Dublin. He or she may have 15 or 20 runs on a Saturday night, nothing on Sunday and probably nothing for the rest of the week. Perhaps there are some tax incentives by way of VRT and VAT that will encourage them.

I do not know whether it can be done through a community scheme or in such a way that the licence attaches the holders to the village so that on a Saturday night they do not head for Ennis or Galway when they should be in places such as Tulla, Crusheen, Scariff or wherever. The Vintners Federation of Ireland should work with people in the transport business and with us on the political side to effect the change.

The delegation is at the coalface and is well positioned to come up with the ideas as some of its people have done. No other issue has got as much support within the political establishment, notwithstanding the fact that a certain section of society has referred to some of the work being done here as being for the "booze bus" and that the taxpayer should not pay to take people to the pub. It is my contention that the taxpayer pays for those people to do what they want where a public transport network is in place and nobody questions whether they go to the pub, Sunday mass or wherever. If they wish to turn this around and provide us with a 24 hour, seven day a week service in rural Ireland we will happily take it. At a minimum we will take it to allow people to live their lives and have the capacity for a social outlet. As Deputy Brady said, this would avoid them looking into the fire at home and creating a greater amount of strife within young families and, perhaps, ageing families when they would prefer to get out and socialise with their friends rather than fight at home.

I apologise for being late. I had another meeting at 2.30 p.m. and apologise I could not be here for the presentation. However, I have read the document presented to the committee.

This general issue which has received much public debate raises many important issues for us in terms of the sustainability of rural life and the lack of support generally for services in rural Ireland. It is not just a problem for public houses; it is also a problem for people who formerly operated corner shops, small convenience stores, post offices and all kinds of different local services, filling stations and so on. It raises important issues about where we are going in terms of regional development and the support that is available for rural towns and villages.

It also raises the question of the critical mass that is required to provide sustainable services. The previous speaker mentioned one-off housing. The lack of sustainability in regard to one-off housing is coming home to roost. If there are clusters of houses close to villages they are much cheaper on the public purse in terms of services but also are more sustainable in terms of people being able to access services easily. The same would apply to local pubs. This raises issues of planning, housing and transport policy and highlights the significant gaps that exist in rural Ireland when it comes to these services.

It also raises an issue about the Irish psyche and attitudes to alcohol. It is easy for me, as a Dublin representative, to speak about that because the problem is largely not commented on in the Dublin area. This issue has highlighted the dependence of a high proportion of our people on alcohol. We note that once the pub option is taken away many concerns are expressed about depression, people's psychiatric welfare and so on, all of which are valid questions. However, the underlying issue is why, as a people, we are so heavily dependent on alcohol for our sanity. That is a big question.

This is the transport committee not the health committee.

People living in rural areas of other European countries manage to get by without having to go to the pub every night. There are issues here which cannot be dealt with today or by this committee.

In respect of the delegation's presentation, the Labour Party is supportive of the proposal for rates relief. We have already included that in part of our rural development policy not only in respect of pubs but shops and other small businesses. We will be supportive of that in facilitating the viability of businesses in rural towns and villages.

I have a concern about the proposal on the rural transport initiative. That service is welcome and has been well received. However, in terms of a transport service it is very much tokenism, in so far as it is a one day a week service at best for the areas that can avail of it. Many areas do not have access to the service. I am not sure that it can be a substitute for private transport on a regular basis — nightly or a number of nights per week. I do not think the infrastructure or the personnel are there but they may be in respect of the school bus service.

I am not sure it would be acceptable to taxpayers generally to fund a regular service for people to attend pubs on a nightly basis. As a Dublin representative I accept fully accept the point made about the public subsidy for transport services in cities and major towns. By and large, the specific services in the Dublin area to facilitate people getting home late from a night's boozing or a night out on the town are the Nitelink services for which people have to pay. Is the delegation thinking purely in terms of a free service or that a similar contribution of €5 or €6 per head would apply? Has it considered the economics of such a proposal and if it stacks up in terms of covering the basic running costs of such a service?

I was quite taken by the point made by the delegation in respect of VAT and VRT. That is an issue the committee should pursue in terms of a special PSV licence which should be available for people wishing to engage in social life in rural areas. We should pursue that with the taxi regulator. At our next meeting I will make a proposal to the chairperson on that issue. There is scope for developing that issue.

It has been said this is the end of life as we know it in rural Ireland. I enjoy a night in a pub as much as anybody else and enjoy a few drinks. There is also a need to get across the message that one can attend one's local pub and meet the crowd on a regular basis but one does not have to drink every night. People can take turns and have a nominated driver and so on. A pilot scheme is running to ensure that nominated drivers would have free soft drinks. Are the delegation's members operating that scheme everywhere or is there any other type of incentive that would encourage one person from a group of five or six to stay off the drink for the night and be the driver?

Mr. Stevenson

May I respond?

Mr. Stevenson

To respond to Deputy Mitchell, we realise we are Homo sapiens and social people by nature and we act and interact with one another whether in Dublin or Donegal. We need an educational programme to explain this is not an urban versus rural divide. However, the point is always made that if we had a DART, Luas, train or bus service in rural Ireland we would not be here today.

The Houses of the Oireachtas introduced an Act which made people feel they had to stay at home. Given that the people concerned live in isolation, for whatever reason, the onus is on the Government to provide public transport, not on the greengrocer, publican or draper. We must recognise this fact. Nevertheless, it is also important that affected publicans play a role in providing the solution. There are a great many public houses and, as such, there is no single hat which will fit everyone. We must tackle the problem from different directions, in which regard the rural transport initiative is welcome. If it is expanded, one aspect of the problem will be tackled. Another part of the solution involves designated drivers whom the VFI encourages at Christmas time and during the summer. The next step is to offer them incentives all year round. There are questions of education and culture which we must address by engendering the idea that people cannot simply go out on the spur of the moment but must make arrangements first. We will play our part fully in changing the culture.

Support for local communities is a wider issue than one simply of pubs. It is a question of whether we treasure rural society. Having said that and because I come from where I do, I understand the importance of providing publicans with the support for which they ask in the face of the anomalies between vehicle registration tasks and their desire to take the initiative in getting people home safely. It is imperative we do everything we can to prevent carnage on the roads. Publicans say they will take people who would be a danger on the roads off them and bring them home themselves. It is an initiative which must be supported. Given the reduction in risk such an initiative would entail, the insurance industry should be encouraged to provide support also.

We met the Road Safety Authority and discussed with Mr. Noel Brett the provision of reflective jackets in every pub in the country for the use of those who wished to walk home. The jackets would be returned the following night for use by someone else. It is an issue that has to be pursued also.

Does Mr. Stevenson think he will get the bulk of them back?

Mr. Stevenson

If there are enough of them. We must consider every possibility.

The VFI has hit on what has been a significant problem in recent times. Preventing the killing of pedestrians between 7 p.m. and 8 p.m. and midnight and 1 a.m. has become the new road safety target. The VFI's proposal is very relevant to the overall approach to the problem. Any reflective clothing or equipment is better than a dark black coat. At the weekend I saw someone in dark clothing on the road, which constituted an absolute danger to that person's life. It is not even that the person was especially intoxicated, but that the clothing was invisible in the glare of the headlights.

The person may not even have been coming from a pub.

Let us assume that was the case.

Let us acknowledge that the person was not intoxicated.

Mr. Stevenson

Ribbon development of housing is interesting. It has happened even in Dublin where people wish to live, for example, near DART stations for easy access to public transport. People living in urban areas must realise that there is no such transport service in rural areas, day or night. There are those who live in isolation who feel forgotten about and it is important to make them believe people care. It is a responsibility we all share. We must realise that there is no simple solution and that we must sit down and go through all the details. Each area is different. There are many aspects to the problem.

Mr. O'Sullivan will explore the pilot projects which have been or will be initiated. It is encouraging to see that we will receive some support to take whatever we believe is the best approach. We will have to meet again to discuss the nuts and bolts of what that approach will be.

This is not just about pubs, although random breath testing has brought the matter to the fore. The VFI has been interested in the issue for some time, as evidenced by our submission to the liquor licensing commission in 2002 which was reflected in its recommendations in 2003.

Deputy Mitchell asked if publicans were prepared to be part of the solution to the problem, to which the answer of our members is yes. They are not only willing to get involved, but have already done so in a number of areas. Pilot projects have been put together. The public transport initiatives which have been spoken about represent only a tiny part of the necessary response to a much greater problem. We have never looked at the matter as one of providing free pub, shopping and postal services for rural areas, but as one of providing services for which customers should pay, if not the full cost, then a token contribution. We acknowledge that one size will not fit all. While there will be areas in which the provision of a large bus along a certain route would be justified, there are others in which even getting to such a route might involve a round trip of 11 miles. In such areas the provision of smaller vehicles might be required such as six or seven seat hackney cars by a number of public houses together, employing a person who might otherwise be unemployed. Pubs and other businesses, as well as those availing of the service, would make contributions to maintain the service. We will also look to the drinks industry for support, given the fact that such services would facilitate sales of their product.

We see a number of rural transport systems being introduced. The circumstances which Deputy Connaughton outlined must be addressed, as well as those outlined by Deputy Mitchell in areas closer to urban environments. We must also cater for areas such as the ones Deputy Brady described which might be in the back of beyond. It is not just a case of the odd man sitting alone up a mountain but of families living in remote areas whose children need to get to sports events.

Deputy Shortall referred to alcohol dependence and the reasons people go to pubs. I do not wish to lecture but in many rural areas people go to the pub because it is the only place to go. The Pioneer Total Abstinence Association hold meetings in pubs in many parts of the country.

I am one of them.

They do not go to drink, but it is the only place in which they can get a room, often for free. Greyhound breeders in small communities such as my own in south-west Kerry may not have a hall to go to, yet they can avail of facilities at the local pub. Angling clubs, wrestling clubs and even the tiddlywinks club will use the local pub in the absence of facilities of their own. While many of those who come to the pub drink — we wish them to spend money, if only on a cup of coffee — people who depend on the pub are not necessarily dependent on alcohol. The big difference with elsewhere in Europe, to which Deputy Shortall compared us, is that clubs on the Continent have facilities or transport available. In some cases, they have both, whereas we have neither.

Or they have the weather.

They do. I note that a Labour Party Deputy has made a proposal in line with the liquor licensing commission's recommendation on a rates rebate. We see this as one issue among many, including VRT, VAT and the ability to provide a service for which people will continue to be expected to pay and towards which our members will be expected to contribute. We hope the Oireachtas will offer support by way of a subsidy or tax concession and that others who will benefit will contribute too. This is not just about publicans.

It is not a "one cap fits all" situation.

That is the point.

We all know that. It could be a combination of giving VRT relief to somebody to operate within a fixed radius of a town or village and perhaps concessions with regard to his or her earning capabilities. Another approach might be to consider it in the context of publicans who provide this service in that they would get full tax write-off on a vehicle, in the same way as they would write-off any other part of their business.

What is needed to resolve this issue is input from a combination of groups including taxi or hackney drivers, publicans and perhaps some of the other schemes in operation, including Rural Lift and others. We must negotiate on this issue but bring everybody into the equation. It is not oriented towards the publicans alone. If someone's children want to attend the local teenage disco, a facility should be provided to take them there and bring them home. This is more about providing transport in rural areas that do not have the population mass to maintain taxis.

I live in a rural area. I am aware of the problem of an insufficient number of taxis. If one does not order a taxi by a certain time one must wait until they finish the disco runs. The problem for publicans is that they cannot put someone who has been drinking in their establishments for two or three hours outside the door until such time as a taxi arrives because gardaí might prosecute them for being open after hours.

The only way to resolve the situation, if this scheme is to be put in place, is for publicans to live within certain laws whereby everybody will agree to close at the same time. In other words, regardless of whether I drink in pub A or B, if the service is available to take me home I know I have to leave at midnight or whatever time. The only change I have seen take place in rural Ireland since the change in the liquor licensing laws is that on Sunday nights people leave the pub between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. because they have work on Monday morning and they are fearful of random breath testing. That is prevalent, especially in rural Ireland.

By way of example, in a small village in the west three pubs got together and bought a car. We were able to arrange a deal with FPD Insurance because we do a lot of business with that company. It employed a local man who was unemployed and he drives a hackney, all of which was done legally. That man who was unemployed now has a job. He gets a certain amount of money from each of the three pubs and from the people he takes home.

Systems like that are the only way to deal with the problem. We could have option A, B, C, D, E or F across the board for which publicans, groups of publicans or communities will have the right to opt. It must be remembered that another trade is starting to pick up business at night, namely, the restaurant trade. Those in that trade are experiencing the same problem as publicans because if people have two glasses of wine with a meal and cannot get a taxi home they are fearful and their night is spoiled.

We should pursue the issue with the taxi regulator after this meeting.

I have no problem asking the taxi regulator to discuss the matter with the committee.

Payment is not an issue with people.

Availability is the issue. Publicans in the country have a close relationship with their customers, more so than in big cities. They are a type of confession box as well—

That is right.

—in that people tell them all their problems and so on. I know a publican who brings a dinner to an old person every day. He drives to the person's house and brings him out for a drink. Those are the type of situations we should take into account.

There is a social and community side to this issue.

We want the message to go out from this meeting that publicans are not looking for charity.

That is the point.

They want something that will be community based and support communities. There is a perception that this will be a booze bus. That is not what we are contemplating. We are trying, with the support of people across the services sector, to put in place a transport service that would deal with the problems of people living in isolation.

Mr. Stevenson

The message must go out that we are looking for the provision of evening rural transport in view of rural isolation, particularly among the older population living alone, and the desirability that those in rural Ireland can enjoy a high quality of life in safety.

Mr. Val Hanley

The taxi regulator must be consulted. I am from Galway city and I have a small, 20-bedroom hotel. I cannot count the number of nights I have had to pick up some of my clients at 2.30 a.m. It does not always suit me to do that because I am busy. Taxis will bring people into town, the club or wherever one is going but there is no way home.

It is the return.

Mr. Hanley

The return journey is not available, even in a city like Galway. It is not difficult to imagine the problem in rural Ireland when it is being experienced in a city like Galway. Many people have walked home wet and cold and they will not come back to Galway city if they have been treated like that. I do not know how we can regulate the taxi business to work those hours.

We will have to end up with a number of combinations including dealing with the taxi regulator and offering incentives either by means of taxation or otherwise. Someone running a business can write off some of that cost and it is the same in this case. I understand car hire businesses do not pay VRT on their cars until they sell them, and then what they pay is proportionate to the lifespan of the car. I understand that is still the case.

There are concessions.

There are concessions. We need to consider tax concessions as well as other options. We will discuss it with the taxi regulator to determine what we can do in that regard. I ask the witnesses to give us an indication of the areas they believe might be helpful. I do not want it done from the point of view of the vintners only but from the view of all the service providers in a locality, be it the supermarket that stays open until 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. so that if people want to do their shopping and then go for a few drinks—

Or not go for a few drinks as the case may be.

—they will have a service to get them home. The system of a limited radius in which the providers of taxi or hackney services operate might be the most effective approach. I am not talking about two or three miles; a limit of ten miles might be ideal. They should get concessions when it comes to the cost of their taxi licence, for instance, and FBD Insurance appears to be prepared to thrash it out with certain people with regard to insurance. There is scope in that regard if everybody is prepared to work together to put in place a rural social transport system that can work and that serves not just one business sector but all business sectors in our smaller towns.

I am delighted that most Deputies and Senators present have such a grasp of the problem pertaining in rural Ireland, particularly Deputy Connaughton who brought this issue to the fore earlier. What is happening now to those in the licensed trade and publicans happened to farmers 20 years ago. I hope the legislators take note of that and the way it has affected the farming community since.

Regarding people being unable to access pubs, for various reasons legislation has come through in recent years. Services which are available in urban areas are not available in rural areas. They are being subsidised in urban areas but that is not the case in rural Ireland.

I am glad hackneys and taxis were mentioned. Deputy Brady said that getting a hackney during the weekend in rural areas is almost impossible and that it is not viable during the week. That is one issue that should be examined by this group.

We need to examine this in a wider context than the pub scene. It is a community service.

We see it in that context. We are not just talking about publicans but about the rural scene in general.

Yes, it is the overall scene. This should not be isolated into a publicans' issue. That would be wrong. This is a rural transport issue. Rural Lift has been successful for older people, who are transported to do their shopping and their various bits and pieces. However, that is a day service and it does not suit somebody who is at work during the day and wishes to go for a pint or into town in the evening. Rural Lift is a midday service, and it suits the people who avail of it. However, what we are seeking is a service between 6 p.m. and 1 a.m., whereby people could go out and need not worry about how they will get home or whether they can get a hackney or taxi.

This is about social inclusion. There is social exclusion at present and that is the problem.

Yes, it is about social inclusion.

It is a little unfortunate that it has been perceived as purely a pub matter because it has evolved from the fear of random breath testing. It is not just about that. I have personally been involved in designated driver schemes since 1986. Since 1984 or 1985 we have been involved in poster campaigns to help our members and their customers to encourage safe driving, particularly at crucial times such as Christmas. The problem of rural isolation has existed for a long time but it has come to the fore in recent times. If this becomes simply a pub issue, it will fail. We are aware of that and that is the reason we want to ensure that other people get involved.

You should be talking to other rural organisations, such as community councils, the IFA, the ICMSA and other groups who represent rural people.

There are policy issues in this for the Government in terms of rural development, planning policies and the emphasis on transport.

Deputy Shortall and I would quickly clash on the issue of planning. I live in a county that would be a desert if one-off housing was not allowed.

The point that people in Dublin forget—

The Government has a role in respect of post offices.

—is that a publican in the country can organise a person's burial and sell and buy land, as well as sell food and drink. That is the difference.

They will bury the person afterwards.

They are often undertakers and auctioneers as well as publicans.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Stevenson, Mr. O'Sullivan, Mr. O'Donoghue and Mr. Hanley for their contribution to the meeting. I apologise for having missed part of it. I live in a rural area and I can walk to the pub but I am aware of the problems faced by the people who might be sitting beside me in that pub. It is a problem to get home if a taxi has not been organised. They might end up waiting for the disco run to be completed first. This issue should be approached by everybody from a social perspective rather than a drinks perspective.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until Wednesday, 7 March 2007.
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