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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 2008

Bus Transport and Traffic Congestion: Discussion.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the representatives of the Dublin Transportation Office, Mr. Willie Soffe, chairman, Mr. John Henry, chief executive officer, Mr. Michael Aherne and other members of the office. I propose we hear a short presentation from Mr. Aherne which will be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. Willie Soffe

I thank the Chairman for his invitation and welcome. I would like to put the presentation in context. As members probably know, the DTO was established by Government in 1995 and was given the primary responsibility for strategic transport planning in the greater Dublin area. Its establishment followed an integrated transportation strategy that had been recommended in the final report of the Dublin transportation initiative, DTI. The functions of the DTO derived from that strategy and they are to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the strategy, ensure consistency between the programmes of the agencies responsible for implementing it, review and update the strategy at least once every five years and promote the strategy by public consultation, awareness and education campaigns. The DTO is a strategic body and is not involved in the day-to-day operation and implementation of the strategy. Against that background Mr. Aherne will make his presentation.

Mr. Michael Aherne

I will outline the background to the city centre plan as it relates to congestion, the bus and how we are trying to co-ordinate matters. We were asked by the steering committee of the DTO to produce a city centre plan to co-ordinate the agencies in implementing Transport 21 at a strategic level. The plan objectives were as follows: to maintain and improve access by public transport; reroute traffic away from the city centre area where Transport 21 projects were concentrated; free up road space with a view to making the city a more enjoyable and pedestrian friendly place; and allow for further growth and development in the city, particularly in the docklands, and attract more investment into the city centre.

We have circulated copies of the 2006 report that produced this plan. Key to that report was the Dublin Port tunnel and the removal of HGVs. Our modelling indicated that removing significant numbers of HGVs from the city would afford us the opportunity to route traffic away from the core city centre area and provide for bus priority. I will mention some key elements of that plan. We took into the plan some committed work, such as the tunnel, Macken Street bridge and the HGV management strategy. The Macken Street bridge contract is under way and is due for completion in quarter one of 2010. On road reassignment work, the quality bus network, QBN, undertaking on providing bus lanes in the city centre is central to the plan. So are "public transport plugs". As part of this plan we propose that only public transport would be able to move through the street area between Trinity College and the Bank of Ireland, the area from the bottom of Lower Grafton Street to Nassau Street, and the entire length of O'Connell Street.

Could Mr. Aherne clarify the areas?

Mr. Michael Aherne

In the first area the four lanes from the bottom of Dame Street going around into Westmoreland Street or in the other direction coming from D'Olier Street into College Green will be public transport only. In the second area, from the bottom of Dame Street at the front of Trinity College around to the bottom of Dawson Street will be public transport only. In the third area, only public transport will be able to negotiate the full length of O'Connell Street in either direction. Those are the key areas.

One will not be able to negotiate its full length in either direction?

Mr. Michael Aherne

One will not be able to negotiate its full length in either direction in a private car but there will be access.

Where would a private car coming in through Dame Street from the south side go when it reaches College Green?

Mr. Michael Aherne

Access will be maintained to car parks but one will not be able to get through to Westmoreland Street.

Do those three proposals not entail major rerouting of all the inner orbital routes?

Mr. Michael Aherne

Yes. We modelled this at a strategic level and Dublin City Council has been working on modelling it at local level. In presenting this information drivers will know before they reach the city centre where they can and cannot go and decisions will be taken much further out based on the fact that, for example, cars cannot go down Dame Street. Our strategic model has indicated this. People will move to public transport or defer their trips. At a local level it is important we get it right and Dublin City Council is working on simulating the city centre. I will move on and we can return to these questions.

A new bridge from Marlborough Street to Hawkins Street is a key issue. It is included in the preferred option from the railway procurement agency, RPA, in terms of the BX line construction. It is a necessary part of our plan and the design brief for that bridge is out. There are some key banned turns. We propose to ban turning right from Bachelor's Walk onto O'Connell Bridge. We have already implemented the ban on turning left into Parliament Street when heading out of the city. In broad terms in those physical measures we have made significant progress. I will put up a slide showing more specifics on that.

Regarding complementary actions, another critical area was the interaction of the bus with general traffic. We have commenced a scheme under this plan between Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council. Dublin Bus is investing in an automatic vehicle location, AVL, system for its entire bus fleet. We have agreed a process whereby that system will communicate with the SCATS system in Dublin City Council and not only will we know where all the buses are, we will be able to afford a targeted bus priority. That is a key element in complementary actions. Other issues that must be addressed are real-time passenger information, integrated ticketing, multi-modal journey planner and network revisions to the bus by virtue of what will happen in the city centre in particular but also in terms of meeting our demands at a regional level.

I will outline what we did in 2007. We published our plan in 2006. The Dublin Port tunnel is open, the HGV management strategy is implemented, Macken Street bridge is under way and at design tender process stage. Some of the banned turns have been implemented. I will show the committee what we have done on city centre bus priority and I think Mr. Ciarán de Burca has already presented to this committee on successes in the city centre. As I mentioned the bus AVL SCATS project has been signed up. This is a major project and we are spending much money not only on the systems but also on the software to develop the intelligence so that when buses compete with other traffic, including other buses, trams or bicycles, the intelligence and logic exists in the SCATS controller to afford the right priority to the right mode at the right time.

The SCATS controllers being the men in the control centre?

Mr. Michael Aherne

No, the SCATS is the principal system controlling 600 traffic lights around the region. This is a major project and Dublin City Council is taking on innovative work. Across Europe a project on this scale in terms of bus priority through an adaptive urban traffic control, UTC, has not been undertaken.

We have with us the man who launched the SCATS, Mr. Soffe, many years ago when he was effectively director of traffic on Dublin City Council.

Could Mr. Aherne explain SCATS for the culchies here?

Mr. Michael Aherne

SCATS is one of several adaptive traffic systems. A group in Brussels has also been examining this across Europe. Adaptive systems came into the major cities approximately 25 years ago and their raison d’être and modus operandi is detection of vehicles on the network and minimising delay to vehicles. That is where they came from. There are different versions, such as SCATS, SCOOT and other systems used by cities across Europe.

Why is it that when Operation Freeflow is working, despite SCATS, traffic seems to flow more freely? My constituents often ask why we do not have such an operation all year round.

Mr. Michael Aherne

I will make a note of that issue and come back to it. I will explain the rationale behind these operations. They were developed at a time when cities and city regions had spare capacity and we had the luxury of being able to minimise delays to vehicles. It is an entirely different paradigm now and most cities in Europe are looking to sustainable transport. They are looking to public transport, bus and tram systems, as the long-term solution. It is a different question and we must formulate a different answer. We cannot do this simply by changing the entire logic of the system overnight. We must ensure that ultimately we will move people and goods in the most effective way. We are moving away from the detection of vehicles to the movement of people. This project will run for 18 months to two years and the DTO is investing heavily in it. The two agencies concerned will put a lot of resources into the project as part of the plan.

Critically, we cannot afford poor utilisation of kerb space in the city centre. This issue will manifest itself more prominently as we move into the period of Transport 21. The idea is that we will remove buses from the kerbside back to the garages located around the city centre, in some cases to the far side of the city. We will have cross-city routes rather than having buses simply come into the city from one side and stopping in the centre. We have made some progress in this regard with Dublin Bus. Some of the new Tallaght-based buses are parked in Ringsend, using the Pearse Street quality bus corridor as part of the process, but much more can be done.

During 2007 Dublin City Council undertook simulations, using a package hooked into SCATS to see what the outcome would be in various scenarios. It produced some interesting results. Bus lanes were delivered in 2007. There was also a ban on turning on Parliament Street, which made a big difference to outbound buses. We have made significant savings on the north quays and coming in from Malahide and on the Howth Road corridor. The new services from Dublin Bus have exploited these time savings.

A number of issues arose in 2007 that required us to take a second look at our plan. The plan, in general, is robust and was improved by the board of Dublin Bus at the end of 2006. The strategic policy committee of Dublin City Council noted the plan and the work we were going to do in 2007.

Simulations presented us with a number of problems. As Deputies will be aware, evening peak hour traffic in Dublin is on a knife edge. It does not take an awful lot to clog the city in terms of congestion. I will explain the reason for this. When we simulated, the problems showed up but there was an indication that we would have problems, even when traffic was removed from certain plugs. Traffic interfered with buses elsewhere in the network. We also had a problem with buses in terms of dwell time at the kerb which caused a problem for other buses.

Another issue that arose in 2007 concerned the contract for metro north in that BX would be included as part of the contract. The sequencing had BX follow metro north. With regard to the metro north PPP, towards the end of last year those behind the project came back with an initial proposal on how to construct the city centre stations. That was the biggest change to the plan in that the extent of the works was significantly greater than previously envisaged, to the point where they would interfere with the public transport routes within the initial plan.

With regard to evening peak hour traffic congestion, we are dealing with a bigger take and speaking about buses having to migrate from their preferred alignment. Therefore, we are talking about having even more traffic move away from the central area. In the evening peak hours, in particular, this would cause problems. The bottom line, in respect of issues which arose in 2007, is that the position as regards evening peak hour difficulties would become significantly worse for general traffic. At the end of 2007 we understood we would need a short-term action plan to provide transport alternatives into the city centre because if the position was intolerable, it would certainly get worse.

We presented to the DTO steering committee that we would undertake six tasks which we are in the middle of doing. This is a work in progress. First, we would identify the level of demand in terms of new trips into the city centre in respect of a target date of the end of 2010. We would use census information and forecast demand. We would also obtain information on key development areas such as the Docklands and other centres in Dublin city. We would identify the restrictions and the capacity losses arising from services such as metro north and the area it would remove from the network. There are also other issues such as the Maynooth line and the level crossing programme, which impact on our road network. There would perhaps be the impact of increased frequency of services on the DART, as traffic is affected at some level crossings.

We will look at new capacities for 2011. Under Transport 21, we will have significant new capacity. The M50 project will be finished and there will be additional rolling stock on the Luas, as well as new Luas lines. We will examine these issues spatially to see where these components will provide us with additional capacity and consider if that is where the demand will be. Having done this, we will have a very good idea, by time of day and location, where the deficit in transport will be. At that stage we can consider how to overcome it.

By way of background on the scale of the task involved, I have some data for 2002. The data for 2006 are not in pictorial form but have been analysed. As members can see, the south-east quadrant of the city centre is bounded by the River Liffey running from west to east, the canal and Clanbrassil Street. In 2002 it had an employment population of almost 115,000. Adding Ballsbridge, we had in the order of 160,000 working in the area. The population living there was quite low. The people in question came from the entire region and outside to work in this area. It is the single greatest employment zone in the country. In addition, there are trips for shopping, etc. but our focus is on the south-east quadrant which presents our key challenge. The number of people coming in by car is highlighted on a slide available to members. Blue dots represent car trips and the bigger the dot, the more trips recorded. They are located at the centroid of the zone, although we have information down to street level. It shows that there are many people involved, some coming from very close to the city centre.

On that exact point, did the DTO make any submission in respect of the recent planning of office developments in Ballsbridge proposed by Mr. Seán Dunne?

Mr. John Henry

We did. We support mixed development. We had a question as to whether, given its scale, the development would work. I do not have the documents in front of me but that was our view.

I will allow questions to have the information clarified.

It relates to this particular point.

With due respect, it is an issue the Deputy can bring up in questions.

Did the DTO make a submission to--

Is the Deputy seeking clarification on the information we are receiving?

Mr. Michael Aherne

Perhaps we can come back to that issue. With regard to from where people are coming by car into the south-east quadrant, we can see that they are spread across an area stretching from the Luas Tallaght line to the DART line. It is interesting that people even drive to the city centre from zones very nearby. We have mode split figures that relate to 2002 and refer to the number of people driving distances of less than 5 km. There is still a rump of around 8,000 people that travel short distances to the city centre by car but this represents progress since 2002 when the figure was 12,000. There is still a significant number of cars making short trips.

In terms of restrictions and capacity losses, there will be the losses that I explained and other losses that Dublin city is looking at in terms of an overall programme management master plan for Transport 21. This includes a water works programme, other site works, utilities and so on. These will need to be managed and co-ordinated by Dublin City Council which is running the programme headed by Mr. Tim Brick.

The quality bus network, QBN, programme will have an impact on our street network and the level crossing programme will impact on the network to an extent. We recognise that in the new situation we will have to provide greater bias towards pedestrians and public transport through the automatic vehicle location, AVL, system. The signals are balanced between car-based trips and other trips and we expect a bias towards public transport in 2010.

Many people cycle to the city centre and we want to protect them and increase the number of people making such trips. There has been growth in cyclists crossing the canal in recent years but an issue arises when we plan heavy goods vehicle, HGV, routes because there will be excavation for the metro north project. We must ensure these routes are planned correctly and this will have implications for the network.

We are having discussions with our member agencies, Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus, the Railway Procurement Agency and Iarnród Éireann at the moment on overcoming the deficit. For short trips we want as many people as possible to use what we call the short modes, cycling and walking. We want additional public transport services to cater for the profile of demand as it changes during a day. We want to examine new and revised routes for public transport and look at extra rolling stock and the service pattern proposed to see how it will help meet the deficit. The Dublin Transportation Office, DTO, will seek to reduce kerbside delay, not only for buses but for a variety of modes, including loading. The office will examine ways of bringing about a reduction in junction delays, including the AVL system. We will study interchanges to see where we can improve rail-based capacity in particular. Park and ride facilities will be examined under Transport 21 to see what else we can get on the rail network.

I will now refer to the profile of demand for travel over the course of a day. The DTO undertook a survey in 2006 which was completed by 2,500 households and it gives us a good idea of how the population of Dublin travels throughout the day. The morning peak, running from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m., probably represents the minority of trips. The majority of trips are taken between 3 p.m. and 7.30 p.m., and this explains the problem facing Dublin City Council. There is a build-up of traffic throughout the day and the picture relating to traffic accessing Dublin across the canals in the morning is quite good. This is the best mode split of anywhere in the country in terms of people walking and cycling, bus use and the limited use of cars. The trouble is, traffic builds continuously on the network throughout the day and by the time evening comes, between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m., and people start to worry about their own time, because while Ireland is relatively wealthy it is time-poor, traffic is concentrated in the city centre with everyone trying to leave. This is where the problem manifests itself.

That is the demand profile across the population and it is interesting that the Luas has, largely, responded to the demand. The profile of Luas use that was made in November indicates it has done well in meeting demand on an all-day basis. We have given the Luas profile to Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus to see how they might consider responding, particularly with regard to the city centre.

I have given an undertaking that we will have a detailed report for the May steering committee of our group. Discussions with the agencies are ongoing and work remains to be done. The implementation and reporting arrangements are to be agreed but responsibility for them is migrating to Dublin City Council. Communication and public liaisons will be of critical importance and there will be assistance for mobility management plans. Committee members will be aware that the DTO and its agencies undertook the "one small step" initiative but in the city centre we will have to work with people to help them use shorter modes and public transport, as it becomes available. This is the basis of our work at the moment.

I thank Mr. Aherne for his comprehensive presentation. The announcement that the DTO, in association with Dublin City Council, is to ban traffic from key city centre areas is the best news I have heard for the city in a long time. Could we have a timescale for this development? What mechanisms exist to expedite the implementation of these plans?

Mr. Aherne mentioned that the Macken Street bridge would be completed in 2010 and that a new bridge between Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street would be constructed. How feasible is it to build a Bailey bridge at the Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street location, pending the construction of the new bridge? Would this be possible for the Macken Street bridge? Are there any other proposals that can be put in place to improve traffic circulation and help ban traffic from the city centre as quickly as possible?

This committee has set the target of introducing an extra 350 buses to the city within two years. The issues of getting these buses and improving quality bus corridors as quickly as possible have been raised here with many of the agencies. Is there a need to improve the legislation relating to the negotiations and consultations that take place with regard to quality bus corridors, given the success of corridors such as that which runs from Foxrock to the city, where buses run at one minute intervals? We believe things should move much more quickly on the implementation of the quality bus corridor network and the statistics presented regarding the Luas show people will use public transport if it is fast, efficient and reliable. I believe this is the major issue.

Mr. Aherne mentioned a strategy group that, I gather, brings together all the agencies. This committee sees evidence of a lack of joined-up thinking between these agencies and I would like to hear a response on what needs to be done to increase joined-up thinking, particularly regarding the challenges of the big dig that was mentioned. It looks as though that dig will take place in 2010.

Surely the bus will be the success story of the next five years if we can get it to move quickly and efficiently. The metro and Luas developments will not be completed in that period so how can we get more people to use the Dublin Bus network? What initiatives has the Dublin Transportation Office taken to help change the culture and people's mindsets to get them to use the bus, rather than cars, when travelling to the city centre?

Mr. Michael Aherne

I will take some of these questions and perhaps Mr. Henry or Mr. Soffe will take the others. In terms of the timescale for development, we considered whether any of this, particularly the public transport plugs, could be brought in ahead of the construction of the Macken Street bridge, which was one of the reasons we went for the simulation models undertaken by Dublin city in 2007. The answer is no. The Macken Street bridge has to go in. In fact, we need this plan rolled out before the building of the metro starts in earnest. We need people to engage with a different way of negotiating the city centre. The Macken Street bridge should be completed in the first quarter of 2010 and we need to have the plan back with the steering committee and the details of the plan out in the public domain well before construction of the metro starts.

With regard to the Marlborough Street bridge, a bailey bridge is being considered, because it would be very difficult to get a permanent bridge so quickly through a design competition or a tendering process.

How long would that take?

Mr. Michael Aherne

One would bang in a bailey bridge fairly quickly.

Mr. John Henry

If you had it on site it would be up in a day.

We suggest that the representatives do whatever is necessary to get a decision that it be put in as quickly as possible.

Mr. Michael Aherne

It is going to go in. There is a tender out for consultants to provide it.

We are a strategic office and to a certain extent we work with the agencies at a tactical level. We do not generally get involved at an operational level. For this project, we are working with the agencies but we are considering it in terms of Transport 21 and exploiting the additional capacity that is coming in to the city centre. To say that the bus is the only show in town is not true. There will be a Luas extension at the docklands and the B1 line going out to Cherrywood, and the Citywest extension is coming on stream. We have the Dunboyne and Pace railway line with a park and ride facility at the end. Improvements have been made, additional rolling stock is coming in and we have a signalling arrangement with Iarnród Éireann to give us more passes.

Our job is to exploit capacity across all public transport, but it needs to be targeted by region. If we look back at the slide showing dots representing where people are driving in from, those places are where we want people to make the shift. Our particular challenge is that the Rathfarnham QBC is not performing well. The Luas red line is working very well and more capacity is being added. The Tallaght QBC could probably perform a little better. There is still a rump of people in the Donnybrook-Ballsbridge area who are choosing to drive in to their car parks inside the canals. We must consider these corridors to see what else we can do where there is quality transport. If the problem is not the morning, we need to examine the frequency of public transport during off-peak times so that we offer all-day public transport options rather than focusing on particular peaks. That is the challenge we have given to the transport agencies. People can come into the city in the morning but if they have a variety of trips to make they can have confidence that the public transport will be there to meet their needs.

We have had this discussion with Dublin Bus. The buses are not available during the off-peak period. They are all parked at Broadstone or wherever.

Mr. Michael Aherne

As I said, we have given this information to Dublin Bus and it is up to Dublin Bus to respond in terms of how they want to deploy the buses. We are working with them. There will be changes in the city centre, which Dublin Bus is in the process of negotiating with Dublin City Council. There will be changes to bus stops and to the through routes, including exploitation of the new bridge. Things are certainly not going to get any better for cars. That is very clear. We are taking away road space. If it is bad now, it will get worse for cars. If we want to get people out of their cars we need to be able to offer the public the option to migrate to public transport for the same purpose for which they currently use their cars.

Is Mr. Aherne saying we need to have a rush-hour bus service all day?

Mr. Michael Aherne

One can see the profile. No one wants buses running around empty, but we need to give the public an assurance, in a partnership arrangement, that if one chooses to use public transport it will be there. Not all Luas trams are full all day or for the lengths of their journeys, but the commitment is there so that people who choose to use the Luas know what they are getting. That predictability is very important so that people can plan their journeys around public transport. The provision of a public transport journey planner, a one-stop shop where people can plan their journeys, is part of our plan.

What is the timescale for clearing cars out of the locations mentioned?

Mr. Michael Aherne

Our timescale is that we need to be ready for the first quarter of 2010, and we are working back from there. In May, we need to give the steering committee a clear idea of the key elements of the plan and the remaining work packages in terms of delivering for the public. We have a considerable amount of work to do, needless to say, and we are in discussion with the various agencies.

The timescale is two years from now.

Mr. Michael Aherne

Yes, or less.

Mr. John Henry

I might add to what Mr. Aherne is saying. The city centre plan is needed in the city centre anyway, regardless of the big dig. We need it there today. The pressure on the city centre can be seen if one watches the number of people who walk from Grafton Street up to O'Connell Street, competing with the cars when crossing. It should be a more pedestrian-friendly place and a place for people. What we are saying is, regardless of the big dig, let us put the plan into effect now and not wait for the time when it is needed, so that it is all there and the big dig will take place in a calmed area. Afterwards we may have reconfigured the streets--

That was my point. Can the DTO expedite the process within the two-year period? Can we see this happen?

Effectively, are the representatives saying that O'Connell Street and College Green will be wonderfully pedestrianised, but people will be avoiding roadworks because the whole place will be dug up? They will be walking through a building site.

Mr. John Henry

Yes. The top end of Westmoreland Street will be like that, but not down as far as Trinity College.

The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has more or less said he is dropping the BX line — it is gone — and we are now working only on the metro. This is what was reported in The Sunday Business Post, which reports Fianna Fáil policy faithfully, and this leads us to believe that the BX line is gone. We are then down to the Luas extensions, the metro and possibly a Lucan line. Would there be a case for having one massive dig? Let us dig the hell out of the place for a couple of years and get it all done. Then, when we are celebrating the 100-year anniversary of the Easter Rising in 2016, we can say the job is done. In other words, we could get rid of it.

Mr. John Henry

I agree entirely. If we are going to dig we should do it all at once. We dug up O'Connell Street to make it look better and now we are going to dig it up again to put something on it, although I am not criticising anybody for that. I do not think the BX line has been dropped yet, but maybe we have not heard about it.

The Minister talks to one newspaper every Sunday and every week it is something different. This week he was saying the BX line is gone. A few weeks ago he said Iarnród Éireann would need to get out of Broadstone for the BX line and now he is saying it is gone and we are concentrating on the metro. Anyway, would it be better, in Mr. Henry's view, to get all of the digging, including perhaps that for the BX line, done at once?

Mr. John Henry

We would probably have to do the metro works first, but the other works could follow immediately afterwards. I do not think we could run the two together because they would interfere with each other. When the work is completed, we do not have a plan to let cars back onto the streets. We want the city centre to be calmed. A question was asked about where the cars would go. In fact, when we model the closure of any street, as long as people know about it, the traffic dissipates throughout the network, so that one cannot find any other hotspots created by that closure. Some trips, as members know, start 20 miles away. Somebody 20 miles away who knows that O'Connell Street is not accessible by car will not even attempt to go there. The traffic is self-regulating. We do not have any worries that closing off some streets to cars will have a major impact on the traffic, but there will be a big improvement for all other users.

Leaving aside the digging for a moment, can the plan be expedited, or does it have to take two years?

Mr. John Henry

I do not think there is anything physical. The Macken Street bridge would need to be in place. Mr. Aherne can tell us whether that is a key element.

Mr. Michael Aherne

The Macken Street and Marlborough Street bridges will have to be in place for operational reasons to do with the dig and for transport exploitation. To be honest, I do not think the plan can be expedited. If we consider the details of trip origin and destination patterns, we can see that a response will be required from Dublin Bus. We are talking about significant changes to city centre operations. It is going to take that much time. In addition we have an AVL system coming and a smartcard from Dublin Bus. All these things have deadlines coming up to 2010, but they are all very much part of the same plan. We need all those concerned to talk to each other. Our job is to make sure that the plan is in place before the dig starts and that people have exploited the plan before then so that the city remains more accessible for more people before the dig starts. I would imagine that we will do this as quickly as we can but the bridges are critical.

Mr. John Henry

Two other questions referred to Ballsbridge and how we are reacting to that. We like mixed-use development where people have the opportunity to work and live in the same place. We like higher density because it can be better served by public transport. Our concerns were with the scale of what was proposed, whether it would overload the area or whether it might be made to work. Currently there is a public transport deficit in the area for the scale of development that was proposed.

Subsequent to that refusal, the developers have been in with us and they are doing a major traffic study of the area. We guided them towards minimising set parking spaces because if there were no parking spaces in a new development people cannot drive there. We asked if these physical controls could be put into their thinking about development. I was pleased that they were the ones who said as much, that instead of car parking associated with residential development they were considering car storage. That changed view about cars, in terms of storing them during the week and using them at the weekend, is the way they are thinking. I mean literal storage on shelves, an automated parking system. It is a good step forward for a developer to be thinking in that way. If the proper mechanisms are put in place to make a place work, then we should be a little bit more relaxed about the densities. If it does not work it should not be done anyway.

Concerning year-round freeflow, Operation Freeflow has been running for about 12 years. With the pressure of increasing traffic over the past ten or 12 years, it is extraordinary that it still seems to work to some extent, although obviously not as well as one would wish.

It works so well that people ask why not have it all year round. My question to the director, Mr. Henry, concerns the first point about the big dig. Is it not all about enforcement? Even if we are to ramble down O'Connell Street when it is a largely pedestrianised public transport street, or across College Green, as Wolfe Tone did 200 or so years ago, back and forth to Trinity College, when that atmosphere is restored to College Green, does it not come down to enforcement? Is it not a huge problem that we do not have proper enforcement all year round? Is there not a strong case right now for having a type of freeflow permanently?

Mr. John Henry

Mr. Aherne will address some of those questions in a moment. One of the key things about Operation Freeflow is that we do not allow roadworks. One cannot stop works all the year round, unfortunately. The second thing is that there are about 150 additional gardaí in the city, young gardaí just out of Templemore. They come to the city for six weeks and are dispersed around. A total of 150 extra gardaí is a big additional resource, the Deputy is right. In terms of enforcement they do not actually enforce in the sense of pulling people over and giving them tickets. They enforce by being visible. The fact that they are on the streets means that drivers observe box junctions and the like. It is a bit more disciplined.

Many other European cities, such as Madrid, which has its own traffic police, continously move traffic on. We do not. Is that not correct?

Mr. John Henry

During Operation Freeflow we do not have police directing traffic. Their physical presence and their visibility in their jackets ensure that people are a bit more disciplined in what they do, and that alone can make a huge difference.

Mr. Michael Aherne

Arising from Operation Freeflow over the past couple of years, we have had particular success in towing vehicles within the city centre. We have had a towing arrangement because the city centre is so critical and so much on a knife edge that we cannot afford to have vehicles waiting for a long time. However, as we understand it at the moment, any truck driver has the right, if his truck breaks down, to say that he will get his own guy to tow him away, even if said guy has to come from Carrickmacross or Kilbeggan with his tow truck. We have asked Dublin City Council to look at the issue of permits into the city centre, and in particular that part of the permit arrangement should be that drivers agree to whatever towing is provided within the city centre. That will be an issue during Transport 21. We will not be able to afford the luxury of people saying they will wait two hours until their tow man arrives.

In terms of Operation Freeflow generally, it is successful in that we get about 10,000 additional trips by bus every day and a similar number by Luas. This is partly due to the response of the public transport agencies themselves in what they provide. It is also because the public decides on a particular day, because of something on in the evening, that they will not bring the car into town. The public are part of the partnership. The question for us regarding this plan is to convince people, for the sake of the city and for their own trips and their own sanity, and for the sake of using the public transport provided, to make their minds up to use the sustained modes.

That was the question I put to Mr. Henry who made the comment that if people were to leave their cars at home for one trip per week, there would be 200,000 fewer car journeys every day in the city. Perhaps the delegates might address how we can change people's mindsets on the use of public transport and particularly on using it to go to the city centre. That includes all members here.

Mr. John Henry

We have a campaign called One Small Step which has gone down very well and I hope the members are aware of it. The idea, as the term implies, is that one little thing can have a big impact. As the Chairman said, if everybody who uses a car, either as passenger or as driver, made one small change, not every day, just once a week, 200,000 trips per day are saved, which is extraordinary.

That campaign will be boosted soon with another promotion. We are very pleased with the reaction we have got. We have approximately ten or 12 partner companies in Government agencies and Departments, all preparing their own workplace travel plans and mobility management plans. That is a step. We did not set targets for them. What we tell them is that they should survey how they are operating at the moment in terms of employees coming to work and the general business of the day, and see whether something better could be done. We encouraged those organisations that the initiative must be staff-led and promoted rather than come down from management. It must be the responsibility of everybody to do something about it. Organisations such as RTE, UCD, Vodaphone, AIB and many other big organisations are very willingly co-operating with us. I should mention that we have three Departments involved — Health and Children, Transport, and Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Some organisations, particularly those in the private sector, see the campaign as a green image which they want to promote, so we are capitalising on something they want to do anyway. This is one way of expressing that. We are very pleased with the way One Small Step is going.

To put that figure of 200,000 trips into perspective, the two Luas lines, red and green, together carry about 100,000 trips a day. The effect of everybody making one small change once a week is the equivalent of four tram lines. That is quite an extraordinary effect. We will be promoting that and pushing it along.

I am talking about simple things, just going down to the supermarket for a bottle of milk. If one walks instead of using the car, two things are happening. One is that one will get an extra bit of exercise which has a health benefit. The other is that by not using one's car one is not creating as much pollution. There are many extra benefits.

Regarding schools, we have, as the Chairman will know, a very good schools transport project running with An Taisce, green schools, which is now being rolled out nationally. It is very successful. In some schools we have had an approximate 20% reduction in car use just because of the programme. It is not costing much. We are not building anything. It is a co-operation between teachers, parents and children, or students. They do things such as what they call "Wow" days, "Walk on Wednesday". Once you get a young child walking on Wednesday, you will never stop them walking on that day, hail, rain or shine. It becomes a thing for a child to do. They get brownie points for walking in schools too so they have all sorts of related games. Those sorts of things are having significant effects with very little cost. It will take about five or six years to roll this out nationally. It cannot be rolled out any quicker because a school must participate in the green schools programme for it to work. That is a very positive success story. It is going on quietly in the background because we do not want to be seen to be pushing it.

Mr. Henry will be pleased to know this committee will put before the Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas a workplace travel plan shortly.

Mr. John Henry

Excellent.

This will seek to promote the utilisation of public transport to and from the Houses. Will Mr. Henry address my other question on the legislation for the QBCs?

Mr. John Henry

The Chairman is correct in the sense that it takes much effort to get individual QBC through councils and sometimes there are several councils involved. It might be worthwhile exploring the idea of taking a larger part of the network as one project and going through a public inquiry process. We do this with major infrastructure projects using a strategic development zone, SDZ, in terms of planning and zoning. Once that is passed, all that remains is to fill in the details. If we brought a portion of the network, say one quarter, as one package through such a process, we could then say that it is approved and all that remains is the details.

Is it possible to bring in something like the railway order?

Mr. John Henry

That is what I am saying we should do.

Are there proposals to do that?

Mr. John Henry

The Chairman has brought this to our attention and I will explore it and see where we can go with it. If we begin to think of it as infrastructure in that sense, we might be able to speed it up a little. If we get information on that, we will hopefully be able to successfully report back to the committee.

I have asked some questions already so I will be brief and hand over to my colleagues. I notice the report now before the committee was approved in November 2006, so it is 18 months old. Some 18 months later, the left turn into Parliament Street has been affected and one or two other proposals, but generally speaking we have not seen much of this report in practice. What is the current status?

Did the DTO attend the recent meeting the Minister for Transport held with interested parties on the big dig? On the matter of the big dig, we did not mention the interconnector which is clearly relevant. I presume the interconnector, metro north and the Lucan Luas are three key projects that will more or less coincide. The citizens of this city would like them to coincide. Does it make sense to try to expedite that as quickly as possible, because it allows the possibility of a modal shift? In fact, we could have a large DART network and metro. Does the DTO believe the BX line is dead? We are talking about the old metro plan from Swords to Bray. In other words, the green line would become a metro and that is effectively the way the Government is thinking.

The DTO mentioned road works. Yesterday afternoon — and I asked the Taoiseach about this — we had the emergency in the port tunnel, which could not have been foreseen. Thankfully the NRA, Dublin City Council and everybody caught in it was able to move out of it safely. However, the real cause of the gridlock was that between Fairview and the North Strand, which is on my route, there were no less than six sets of road works in the middle of the afternoon. One man was fixing a fence in Fairview. What does the DTO see happening on that?

The Taoiseach said this morning that the Dublin Transportation Authority, DTA, Bill will come before the Cabinet for final approval on 2 May. Does the DTO expect to be part of the new Dublin transportation authority later this year and therefore to have a statutory role for plans such as this? Clearly the DTO has worked very hard on this plan, which is commendable, but the plan is now 18 months old.

Mr. John Henry

Mr. Aherne and I will share the answers. On the interconnector and metro north, obviously the interconnector is a major piece of infrastructure. It has been missing since the day those railways were built and opened. Heuston Station is a distance from the city centre so the interconnector will have a major impact. It will go through the area where most of the jobs are and Mr. Aherne illustrated this on the slide. At the moment, because of the number of people who get off the train at Heuston Station, it is necessary to put on a separate tram to get those people to the city centre. Perhaps 800 people come off the train at a time. They could now have the opportunity to go right into where the jobs are, which is what they want. It is vital this happens.

On metro north, I think this is moving along. These projects take a good deal of time and I am no expert on the timing of them. Presumably, the two agencies involved are working as quickly as they can.

As far as I am concerned, the BX line is not dead yet. We are in the process of developing a new strategy for 2010-30, which will take over from Transport 21 and A Platform for Change. Such areas as Grangegorman and Broadstone will be redeveloped and we have to serve them. My thinking at the moment is that the BX line will continue up to Broadstone, from there to Liffey Junction and maybe to Finglas. I see it as part of a network, particularly since Grangegorman will be developed as a high density part of the city. It needs something like that to make it work. I would not drop it from my mind at this stage.

The green line is scheduled to be upgraded to a metro. It is already built in that fashion from Beechwood out. We must assume that in the future the line will link up with metro north. It will probably go underground around Beechwood, but from there in to the city it will remain as a tram line. I see it operating with a mix of trams and metros on the same line at the same time. The only difference between them will be that the metro will be longer than the tram, but not much longer. On the green line the metro trams will be increased from 40 m in length at present to 50 m. A metro might be 90 m or 100 m in length. That is the difference. Also, the metro trains would not run on the street. The tram and metro would have to be segregated at all times but they could share the same track. That upgrade plan exists and it is being worked on. New rolling stock is arriving to increase capacity. I will ask Mr. Aherne to deal with the question on road works and Mr. Soffe will answer on the DTA.

Mr. Michael Aherne

On the points about progress in 2007 and the project management meeting, this is a plan for 2010. There is a sequence in terms of progress. The bus lanes are immediate and visible. The bus automatic vehicle location, AVL, link-up to the SCAT system is a significant project. However, most of the projects have a timeline of 2009 and as long as they are on track there is less concern. The Marlborough Street bridge project, which is key, has been brought forward. As for the Macken Street bridge project, I am not the project manager but I understand it is not possible to fast-track this. There is progress and the programme is robust. The precise geographical impact of the metro north project has changed the situation to some extent. There was a different arrangement in place.

There was a meeting last week among the agencies which we did not attend. Our role is to provide the plan and we have described the six-step short-term action plan for transport. The detailed traffic management and co-ordination of the agencies will be led by Dublin City Council, which is its job. Our job is to support it at a strategic and, to some extent, a tactical level.

On road works, the members may be aware that we have funded a package developed by South Dublin County Council and further enhanced by the Local Government Computer Services Board. This package will be rolled out to all the local authorities in the greater Dublin area, GDA. It includes a web-based application system with a geographic interface so that each county can see where road works will open and planned road works. It will help co-ordinate those works not just within South Dublin County Council but across counties as well. That project will be in place before this comes into being. We will make a presentation to the local authorities from our road works group later. Two counties are running that project at the moment.

On the specific case referred to by Deputy Broughan, the Dublin City Council road works control unit is the most developed of all such units in the region. It has a particularly difficult job as there is never a good time to carry out road works. It has a sophisticated system, coupled with traffic ratings on the roads and times when people can come in and out. If there is work being done during the middle of the afternoon on a minor road or on a larger road and the council has taken the view that it can open the road at that time but of course they cannot predict that the tunnel will be out of action. In terms of its own roadwork control, I commend Dublin City Council which is doing a great job. It has a much bigger job coming down the line.

Mr. Willie Soffe

The Chairman asked about joined-up thinking between the agencies. I will go back to what I said initially. The role of the DTO is to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the integrated transportation strategy. It does not have executive powers. It, therefore, tries to reach agreement between the agencies by consent. That is time consuming. It is successful most but not all of the time. That is where a DTA comes in. A DTA will have executive powers to implement a transport strategy and it will call the shots. As already mentioned, it is in the process of being put in place. When in place, the staff of the DTO will be absorbed into the new DTA in various roles and will become part of the structure, as will staff from other agencies, such as the RPA. We will then have a body which will have legal powers and executive functions to implement a transport strategy. I presume it will have financial control and will be able to call the shots.

May I give way to Senator Paschal Donohoe because he has to speak in the Seanad?

I welcome the delegation. I was at the open day it organised some months ago about the successor to A Vision for Change and was impressed by the work being done there. I wish to raise a few brief points on the presentation and on other matters to which I would appreciate an answer. The first is in regard to the operation of the HGV ban within the city centre and suburban areas. I was a member of Dublin City Council when a decision was made to implement a ban on five axle vehicles. It appears to be working well. I would like an input as to when we should move to the next stage of implementation and whether the DTO thinks the infrastructure in place could cope with it.

My second question is in regard to metro north. There is some commentary at present as to whether the capacity will be sufficient to cope with the anticipated passenger numbers. Some of that discussion is being led by people who are bidding for the tender. As an impartial organisation that sits above all of this, what does the DTO think of the assumptions regarding passenger numbers? Does it think they are valid? Should there be any concerns that it will get full too quickly?

My third question concerns the transition period to the Dublin transport authority. The setting up of this new body will involve much change among the existing bodies, including the Dublin Transportation Office, at a time when a huge amount of change will take place within the city centre. I am concerned that the baton could drop during that period. Can I be reassured that will not be the case? How will proper plans be put in place to ensure that change in all these organisations does not lead to poor plans for commuters?

One of the very helpful roles the organisation has performed is the provision of journey times for QBCs. In the discussions we have on them, it is sometimes very difficult to get information on how they are performing. The one organisation that does that regularly is the DTO. The last figures are for 2005-2006. When will they be updated so that committees like this can have accurate information to help the decision making process and for commentary on what is going on?

Deputy Paul Connaughton took the Chair.

Mr. John Henry

I will let my colleague, Mr. Michael Aherne, deal with the HGV ban and the next stage. In terms of the capacity of metro north, there is a design capacity for the system of, say, 20,000 an hour. There would be a more dense network if the capacity was twice that number. It has to do with the design capacity of the system. Metro north, as it currently stands, has a capacity of the order of 20,000 per hour. Some other cities, such as Hong Kong, probably have a much higher capacity but this is not a Hong Kong type of city. I do not have a concern about this. Well before capacity reaches that level we will have to build more metro lines. Church Street might be the next street that will have a metro line and so on. I do not see a problem there, so long as we do not assume that metro north solves everything.

Metro north is only the start of developing a metro system. We will keep developing it as demand requires. We must be careful always to put in sufficient network to carry the people who need it. It is a design process. Once it is tackled this is not the end of the story.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Willie Soffe, to answer the question on the DTA. In regard to journey times, the next monitoring report is due in May 2008. We provide it every year.

May I be excused as I must go to the Seanad? I would appreciate an answer in any event. I can read the transcripts tomorrow.

Mr. John Henry

We will answer the questions.

Mr. Michael Aherne

In regard to the HGV ban, we support Dublin City Council's HGV management strategy. We have encouraged it, in the next steps, to look to two things in particular. Bearing in mind that we are talking about articulated vehicles, we have asked it to look to, perhaps, including a safety requirement in the issuing of the permit. In regard to turning articulated vehicles, there is a particular issue about their suitability within the city centre. If these vehicles continue to be allowed into the city centre, specific steps must be taken to ensure there is no issue with vulnerable road users getting trapped down the side of the vehicle.

The second point we have asked it to consider is the environmental aspects of the vehicles that are permitted to come into the city in terms of their emissions and noise. We support Dublin City Council in its endeavours to move as quickly as possible to assist in the migration towards fewer HGVs and axles in the city centre, particularly for vulnerable road users, cyclists and pedestrians.

By way of information, the DTO and its agencies are involved in a project called smart freight. Smart freight is a European project to provide better information and better dynamic information between the industry, the local authority running the signalling, the network in the region and the individual drivers. Some reasonably comprehensive information is provided by Dublin City Council on the web and through texts, in particular, in regard to the tunnel closing and reopening. There are major opportunities in terms of planning journeys, for example, in providing information on planned road works so that the fleet operators can understand in advance when the road will be affected and plan their deliveries around that.

As part of our new strategy for the region we are required to ensure that the movement of goods has been adequately addressed. With that in mind we are engaging with industry to source significant and sufficient information for us to demonstrate that we have met the demand for the movement of goods. It has proven very difficult in the past to get that data but we are having meetings with the agencies. It relates to the HGV ban in this regard. If we ban all the trucks we need to know where those goods ships will manifest themselves elsewhere in the network. I do not think Dublin City Council or ourselves have fully analysed that data. That is a project we are undertaking at present.

Mr. Willie Soffe

It is important that the baton is not dropped between the demise of the DTO and the establishment of a DTA. There are a couple of things in place which will ensure that will not happen. All the agencies are operating through the DTO to an existing integrated transportation strategy. A new strategy is being prepared, led by the DTO. The preparation of that strategy provides for a break point half way through, to review where we are at. If the DTA is not established at that stage we will continue the work. If it is established, we will hand over the work done to that agency.

As far as projects are concerned, they are all identified in Transport 21. Agencies are delivering them. We are co-ordinating that currently and that will pass to a DTA.

Two important groups of staff in the RPA and in the DTO will become part of the staff of a DTA but will have the same parent Department, the Department of Transport. The mechanisms are in place to ensure a smooth transition.

I call Deputy Feighan and then Senator Brady to conclude.

I do not want to go over old ground and I appreciate the work the DTO has done but an issue that intrigues me is the port tunnel. The DTO might not have any say regarding the tunnel but from a capacity viewpoint it appears to be under-utilised. We all agree traffic must be taken out of the city centre but is there any plan to re-examine the €12, €6 and €3 toll charges with a view to taking more cars out of the city centre?

When I travel from the airport I might take a taxi to Leinster House. I always ask the taxi driver to use the tunnel but they are puzzled and annoyed by the charge on taxi drivers which they pass on to the passenger. Perhaps it is time to consider a waiver on taxis to get them out of the city centre. What are the views of the representatives on that? The port tunnel cost millions of euro to build but it appears to be under-utilised. We travelled to Swords in 25 minutes using the tunnel at a cost of €12 but there were no cars or trucks in the tunnel. This is a major piece of infrastructure and there should be maximum use of it. Where does that come into the representatives' plans or do they have any say in the matter?

I welcome the members of the DTO and compliment them on the work they have done and are doing. The DTO has made a difference. I drive here from the north side and the congestion problems have improved. Taxi drivers and other road users will vouch for that. I would like to think the DTO was somewhat involved in making that difference.

On the park and ride facilities, Mr. Soffe will be familiar with the area along the DART route, including Howth Junction and Harmonstown station. Commuters park their cars in housing estates and then walk the ten or 15 minutes to the stations. That is creating major problems because the emergency services cannot get into housing estates.

A number of landowners contacted some representatives here recently and indicated they are prepared to sell land but there appears to be some confusion about that because when they make inquiries to the local authorities they are told it is a matter for Dublin Bus or Iarnród Éireann. Will the representatives clarify who is responsible for dealing with the sourcing of park and ride facilities?

Another issue came to my attention this morning. Is there a system in place to warn motorists about road closures by way of radio announcements or notices in newspapers and allow them find some other means of getting to work? As we all are aware, Merrion Street was closed off this morning and nobody was aware of it until they got to, say, Lombard Street. As a result many people were late for work and there were many complaints about it. Some people questioned the need to locate the amusement facility on Merrion Street. Will the representatives update me on that?

There appears to be a major delay in providing bus shelters. The proposal to put a bus shelter outside SuperValu in Raheny, with which Mr. Soffe would also be familiar, has gone on for the past six months. I realise planning permission must be obtained but it is important to have good bus shelters in place.

Many cyclists have been in contact with me to complain that there are no bicycle stands in many railway stations. That is an important issue and it should be examined.

The surfaces of many of the continuous cycle lanes are broken in places. There were potholes all over the cycle lane on the Kilbarrack Road last week. Many cycle lanes are time-plated, which means that after a certain time in the evening motorists use them to park their cars. The same times apply on Sundays. I would like to believe that Sunday is the day people might want to go for a cycle but they find cars parked in the cycle lanes.

We will soon conclude but I want to refer again to two issues. The proposal in the event of the big dig fills people with horror. It is like the Klondike gold rush. All three representatives said that what was likely to happen was that once the news got out that certain areas in the city would be restricted, people would not come into the city by car. It is difficult to understand how that will pan out as people will have to travel into the city to work because that is where their jobs are located. The alternative transport arrangements are unlikely to be in place. We have been listening to the various stakeholders here for the past few weeks and I have not met any group that said it would have an organised park and ride facility or that this process would be up and running within two years. If that is the case, how is it proposed that people will get to work if the DTO does not have alternative facilities in place to allow that? Will it be like the situation in India? When a bus or train arrives there will be more people on top of it than inside it because they have to get into the city by some means.

While the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, is present I want to state publicly that he represented us very well in London recently at the conference on congestion charges. We are always quick to criticise this establishment but the Minister of State mixed well with the best professionals in Transport for London, and it was a pleasure to have him with us.

Mr. John Henry

To reply to Deputy Feighan's point about the port tunnel being under-utilised and tolled, we would have a serious concern if the amount of car traffic in the tunnel increased dramatically because that traffic will hit the city and there is nowhere for it to go. The main role of the Dublin port tunnel is to get the trucks in and out of the port. Those trucks have been taken off the street and there is a benefit in the streets in the city. We would be very concerned if it was being exploited to its full potential in terms of car traffic because what would happen when that traffic arrived at East Wall Road? That would not solve the problem.

Senator Brady raised the park and ride--

What about my point about the taxis?

Mr. John Henry

Deputy Feighan's point about the taxis is a fair one. We will consider that and talk to the Department of Transport to determine if something can be done. It appears to make sense because we see taxis as public transport and that argument could be examined. We will make a note of that.

Regarding the responsibility for providing park and ride facilities, that is one of the problems. It might be the view of the local authorities that the operators, which carry the passengers who will park their cars at the facility, should fund park and ride facilities. South Dublin County Council made an attempt recently to develop a park and ride facility in Lucan. Unfortunately, it did not obtain planning permission for it, but it has not given up on that proposal. Was the issue the Senator raised--

The issue I raised was that if I wished to sell land to provide a park and ride facility, who would I approach about that? Does a specific agency deal with that? Is it the local authority?

Mr. John Henry

Park and ride facilities related to railway stations are generally owned and developed by CIE and that should continue to be the position. In the case of a bus-based park and ride facility, it could be argued that the development of it would need to be shared between local authorities and the bus companies. However, we do not yet have a bus-based park and ride facility anywhere.

Mr. Michael Aherne

There must be some 30 or 40--

Mr. John Henry

--small facilities proposed. They are nearly all rail-based. Any opportunity to develop rail-based park and ride facilities should be taken, although not necessarily at a station but within 500 metres or less from it, as some better development may be provided at the station.

Regarding the forewarning of road closures, the closure of Merrion Street should have been made well known. People should have been informed of it in order that those driving into the city would have been aware it was closed. Grafton Street is permanently closed to traffic, except in the mornings for deliveries. Motorists do not attempt to drive down Grafton Street. Once it is well known that a road is closed to traffic, motorists do not attempt to use it.

Mr. Michael Aherne

There are existing systems in place. We collaborated with Dublin City Council and it began, off its own bat, running 103.2 FM. It is a wonderful radio station dedicated to the provision of a traffic service broadcast morning and evening for the Dublin region. It provides a mix of live traffic information from the control room where the team can view 140 cameras around the region and journey time information from a number plate recognition system. We also have a VMS system in the area. Web-based information is also available. People generally do not access it on their way into work, they tend to view it on their way home from work. Anyone can subscribe to a SMS messaging system in his or her area. It may involve a minor cost. It will enable one to get information on traffic in one's area. The question is whether that is sufficient and whether people are made aware of road closures. Normally Dublin City Council or any local authority will place advertisements in the newspapers to advice people of road closures. It is a question of how much communication people need of such changes. There is room for improvement. With the smart freight project in particular, we are interested in communicating with the freight vehicles because if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it creates major problems for everybody. Through the agencies, significant progress had been made in recent years, but that does not mean there is not more room for improvement.

There was reference to a specific case. Mr. Aherne mentioned systems, including the SMS system. People would not know what they are — they would not have a clue about them.

Mr. Michael Aherne

There are the 103.2 FM and AA Roadwatch services and 103.2 FM, in particular, is a dedicated radio station run from the Dublin City Council's control room. I would urge as many people as possible to listen to it. The broadcasters provide a mix of traffic news and music and the traffic update is given frequently.

As a vote has been called in the Dáil we will have suspend shortly.

Mr. John Henry

Will I quickly reply to the questions?

Mr. John Henry

Responding to the Vice Chairman's question, when we talk of closing streets to traffic we are not saying that traffic does not come into the city, it just comes in by a different route. We will not block access to car parks in and around Fleet Street or streets like that. Access to them will not be banned but there will not be a throughway for traffic — there will not be a thoroughfare. From our analysis, it is possible to close almost any street in the city and as long as people know that route is not available, they will find an alternative route and in that way the traffic will be spread out.

Senator Brady raised the issue of cycle stands. We need to increase the number of cycle stands. Road surfacing is the responsibility of the local authority and I agree it is not always maintained in as good a condition as it should be.

I do not favour time-plating cycle lanes. That is usually done as a compromise solution. For example, local residents believe they must be able to park on their road because they may not have front gardens. Ranelagh village is an example where this operates — I consider it a bad example. Cycle lanes operate in the morning and evening during peak hours, but not during the day. It is neither one thing nor the other. I would be against it, although I know it is a compromise that must be made from time to time because of other local pressures.

I thank the representatives for their input. We will suspend the meeting for the Dáil vote and reconvene immediately after it.

Sitting suspended at 5.21 and resumed at 5.45 p.m.

I welcome our next witnesses, three bus drivers who have agreed to share their experiences at first hand. We have had no shortage of experts of one description or another telling us what is likely to happen in Dublin in particular, but we are glad to hear about what it is like to make a living behind the wheel of a bus in Dublin. I have already met the drivers privately and we are delighted to welcome them to the committee.

I will call on Mr. Anthony Germaine from Kavanagh and Sons to speak first.

Mr. Anthony Germaine

Good evening. I have worked as a coach driver for Bernard Kavanagh and Sons for the past 23 years. Our work consists of private hire and tour work. I have consulted many drivers and have heard their views on the problems they face. I would like to put forward a few pointers to the committee on the difficulties we come up against when driving in Dublin.

Nassau Street is a main drop-off point for various attractions for the tourists we carry. The constant problem is that there are only limited bays operated on a first-come, first-served basis, leaving other coaches to use bus spaces to drop off, thus causing upset. I suggest that we make Nassau Street a drop and pick-up point only with a 15-minute leeway and ensure this is properly signed in different languages for all to understand. At the moment there are only two bays in Merrion Square South that we can use. If these could be extended to the whole length of Merrion Square South, with a two-hour limit, it would mean we could drop in Nassau Street and park on the square. For this to work, it would have to be policed with necessary action taken for those who do not comply.

We suggest that we remove parking on the right-hand side of Dawson Street to ease traffic flow. For Pearse Street, we should review the entrance into College Green as a great deal of space seems to be wasted. We should remove parking from one side of Molesworth Street to ease traffic flow. On Dublin Port the suggestion as regards Irish Ferries and Stena Line is that there could be a wider gap between the two ferries docking to ease flow.

There is not enough coach parking. There is a high volume of privately owned coaches entering Dublin on a daily basis. These are given very few parking facilities. Most cities around Europe give great information via the Internet, and are well sign-posted directing drivers to designated coach parking in the area. Here in Dublin it is difficult to find such information if it exists. I could not find it. Dublin is in desperate need of large, designated coach parking, well sign-posted for all to understand. This would have a positive effect taking coaches away from the city streets. I have been in touch with my colleagues in the Irish Coach Drivers Association and this was the first thing they all mentioned to me.

I believe this meeting is being televised around the Dáil today. Will the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, please afford us the same rights as we have in the rest of Europe, and increase our speed limit from 80 km/h to 100 km/h on dual carriageways and motorways, as today's coaches are super modern and built to the highest standards?

Thank you very much. I now call on Mr. Tony Fallon, representing Dublin Bus.

Mr. Tony Fallon

I did not prepare anything on this subject.

The committee just wants to hear your views.

Mr. Tony Fallon

I have been working in Dublin Bus for 26 years and for more than 20 of those years I have been a bus driver. My experience is that over the past 20 years the sheer volume of traffic in Dublin has increased every year. There are a couple of areas in which the situation could be alleviated somewhat. Apart from the fact that we have to get people away from private cars and on to public transport, more priority and enforcement are needed on the bus lanes. There are contraflow bus lanes all over the city, yet other private traffic is using them and holding things up. The enforcement is just not there.

When you mention enforcement, what exactly are you talking about?

Mr. Tony Fallon

Taking Operation Freeflow, for example, that comes in at Christmas time, there is no magic wand waved there. A Garda presence is all it takes to clear up junctions. People will not transgress rules if they see a uniform. I know the Garda Síochána does not have the manpower because it brings out its trainees from Templemore. It is amazing how it works. The buses move much more freely around the city because of Operation Freeflow. If we could have some sort of Operation Freeflow for the whole year, or even just at peak periods, it would make a significant difference. If people can get into town quicker on a bus, they will use it. With the current frequency of the buses, there are many more using them. One would need at least a ten minute frequency to entice people onto the buses.

If one is trying to get people to use public transport, one does not increase the fares. There is a way, I would suggest, of financing the cost of public transport. The cost of gridlock to Dublin city alone is probably in the region of €2 billion, which is quite a sum. If we could make savings to some degree in that regard, even of a couple of hundred million euro, it would more than pay for cheap fares or free fares. Perhaps we should look at the way we subvent public transport. If the Government is not willing to provide even what the average European government provides, then what I suggest is one way of looking at it. With the sheer unpredictability of the traffic, it is difficult to plan. It is like a chicken and egg situation but if those measures were adopted perhaps we could break the cycle.

Mr. Gerry Charles

I jotted down a few headings. I will take them in order and then the members can ask questions about them.

My name is Gerry Charles and I am 36 years working in Dublin Bus, 26 years of which is working as a driver in the city and outlying areas. One of the measures I welcome is the QBCs that have been put in operation. As a driver, I find them a great asset and so do all the rest of our drivers to whom I have spoken. They help us in doing the job of driver. On my route I use the Malahide QBC or, as we call it now, the super lane because it is brilliant. There should be more of them. It makes driving a pleasure. One is now going from point A to point B with no restrictions of stopping and starting, as was the case previously. Before the extension of the Malahide QBC, there was only so much of it and then one had to go into the normal traffic and out again. At the end of the day, it was a waste until it all was matched up and introduced as a full QBC.

I asked the controlling inspectors and the drivers themselves how they see the QBCs, in case it was not just my point of view. Before the introduction of this we were losing approximately 25 minutes a day. We are now on time and in some cases ten minutes ahead of schedule. In my view, it is a success. If nothing else comes from today, I want to make a recommendation that, if possible, there should be more QBCs across the city which would possibly help our job of getting people into the city quickly and safely.

Kerbside and termini is another issue. In one way it adds to the congestion and it is something of a concern for most drivers within the city. The area where this causes problems is in the parking of buses in the city centre. We have no choice but to do so.

Are these what are called the pinch points?

Mr. Gerry Charles

Yes. Examples of pinch points would be places like the quays, Parnell Square, Parnell Street, Marlborough Street and College Green. Everybody who drives around the city will recognise these as the places that cause problems. They cause problems for us as well because if the congestion is such in the city and we are running 20 minutes late, we add to that congestion. There seems to be a lack of involvement in this matter from Dublin City Council or DTO officials.

We would like to see designated safe terminal points such as bus bays, as Mr. Germaine suggested. In certain areas there should be designated bus areas, which do not interfere with the flow of traffic and from where one can work. One could come into the city, pick up passengers, not cause congestion and move away.

Is such accommodation available?

Mr. Gerry Charles

These are my observations as I driver. In answer to the question, I do not know. No doubt the DTO and Dublin City Council need to look at that. It is one of the suggestions that I would make today. It would make matters not only much easier, but probably much safer. If there are buses parked along the quays or the places I outlined earlier, then one cannot get the bus in and must let passengers off in the middle of the road, or they take up space on the pathway, which can be dangerous. Unfortunately, that is the way of the city and nobody seems be addressing that. Dublin Bus, for example, cannot do anything without involving Dublin City Council. This involves more than one body and must be done collectively by the DTO, Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus and all the different bodies.

Traffic congestion, which is the problem I was asked about, is one of the major problems any driver will face in his or her day. Drivers must face the customers every time we run late due to traffic congestion. As front-line staff, we are the ones who take the blame and in some cases, it can lead to confrontation between the customer and the driver. This is the part on which most drivers feel let down, and some drivers even contemplate leaving the job. Others feel they are being used in the continued negative coverage of public transport on congestion.

We are the front-line people. We leave our termini and the outer termini to get into the city. When we are caught in traffic and are 20 minutes late, and we arrive at a stop, the person there does not recognise what we have gone through. They just want to get to the hospital for an appointment or to their school, or to get home to their children rather than leave them outside the door until they get home. There are many reasons people want to get to their destinations but at the end of the day they do not want to hear the excuse that I was stuck in traffic. They want to know why they did not get a bus at 2 o'clock that was supposed to be there. That is the problem we face. There is not enough of that coming across. That is why I welcome the committee asking for feedback because it is nice to be able to give our side of it to the committee or to the public. We cannot do anything but sit in traffic. If the QBCs were in place it would make it much easier, but they are not. They need to be. If they were, we would probably gain ten minutes on the schedule.

There is another aspect of congestion. When I started driving nearly 30 years ago there were certain routes on which I operated where the times scheduled for going from the city to the destination were possibly 35 or 40 minutes and which now take an hour and ten minutes or an hour and 20 minutes at peak time. That means that our company must find more buses along the way to add to the schedule, which costs money that could be put into any other areas of the company, especially buses for other required routes. It has gone beyond a joke.

Earlier I stated that drivers even contemplate leaving the job. They cannot take the pressure, when congestion occurs and we take the full blame. Our cabs contain screens which were installed during the 1980s and 1990s because of robberies and the like. Thank God, the screens and the auto-fare system have done away with that type of difficulty, but now the screens provide an even greater safety role. If people who have taken drink get on and cannot get from point A to point B because the bus was late, and they have been standing in weather such as the kind we have had for the past couple of days, the only one they see is the driver and the only one they go for is the driver. The committee will understand the pressure drivers can be under.

Congestion has a negative impact in that certain representatives and the media feel that public transport is not doing the job and other private bus companies could do it better. Dublin Bus has 1,100 or 1,200 buses and we cannot do the job at present because of the congestion and the existing problems. How can anybody else do it any better? If we have this discussion in five years' time when the QBCs are in place and we have a way of getting buses from point A to point B on time, maybe that will be time when we must discuss other options. However, if we are able to deliver then, why will there a need for anybody else to do it? That is the kind of negative feedback that annoys us drivers. Why pick on us? It is not our fault. Give us the equipment and the proper facilities, and we will do the job. We are professional enough to be able to do that.

There are other areas causing problems for the driver. Approximately 80% of the Dublin Bus fleet is rightly made up of low-floor buses. As drivers, we welcome the arrival of these vehicles because they will help us to do our job in a better way. We will now be in a position to take people in wheelchairs and mothers pushing large prams. These individuals will find it easier to get onto the new buses.

The greatest problem we face is people parking cars at bus stops. This prevents bus drivers from pulling their vehicles in to the kerb in order to allow people in wheelchairs or mothers pushing large prams or buggies to get on board. We have raised this matter with the company and others but nothing has been done. Again, it is the drivers on the front line who suffer because people complain to them and they do not like that.

Bus lanes are fabulous but at certain times of the day when they should be clear they are not. This leads to frustration. The bus lane at Gandon House, opposite Connolly Station, is only in operation between 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. During the remainder of the day, drivers are allowed to park cars there once they pay a fee. Buses on approximately 16 different routes leave from Marlborough Street and the quays and are driven along this bus lane on Amiens Street towards Fairview and other areas. At any one time, it is possible that eight or nine buses might come past Busáras and drive onto Amiens Street. The cars parked in the bus lane prevent its use by our vehicles and our drivers are obliged to move out into the normal traffic flow.

Are the cars in question not moved by their owners by 4 p.m.?

Mr. Gerry Charles

No. If the Garda Síochána is contacted, it will send officers to remove these cars. However, their owners will park them in the same place the next day. These cars must be removed on a continual basis until their owners get the message. When our drivers move their vehicles out of the bus lane, they obstruct normal traffic. I do not blame individuals who state that we have our bus lanes and should remain in them because they have only the normal traffic lanes within which to drive. I understand why some of them will not let our drivers out of the bus lane. As a result of what happens at Gandon House, the entire area back through Beresford Place, the bottom of Gardiner Street and onto the quays becomes blocked and this leads to the creation of further congestion. Proper policing could resolve this problem quite easily. I am not stating that gardaí are not doing their job. They are doing so but they cannot be everywhere. The pinch areas to which I refer should be kept clear in order that traffic flows are not interrupted.

Yellow junction boxes are a nightmare. The instructor who trained me asked if I knew why such boxes exist. I told him that I did not and he stated that they are there to stop fools from driving their cars into areas where they should not be. People continue to stop on these junction boxes. If one is driving one's bus down the Malahide Road or the Howth Road, it is often impossible to get into the bus lane heading down towards the North Strand because the junction box is blocked with cars. If the traffic lights change to red, one is obliged to wait but when they turn green again there will often be another car blocking the junction box. Either the law needs to be changed in this regard or the council needs to take action. If action were taken in respect of this matter, we might be able to resolve some of the problems.

Our guests referred earlier to Operation Freeflow and the benefits thereof.

Mr. Gerry Charles

When Operation Freeflow was in place, gardaí were stationed at every junction at which there is a yellow box. People did not block the junction boxes when they saw these gardaí and this ensured that traffic flowed much easier. If one drives through any part of Dublin, one will see cars and other vehicles blocking yellow junction boxes. Members of the general public must be made aware that if they break the law, cause congestion, etc., they will pay the price.

I wish to comment on bus operation on roads where cars are parked on both sides. I would link this to the issue of park and ride facilities, the discussion on which I heard earlier. Senator Brady referred to the way people park their cars in Kilbarrack. People who wish to access public transport — I refer, for example, to certain individuals who use the DART stations at Raheny, Clontarf Road, etc. — often drive from their homes and park their cars in housing estates and other areas, St. Anne's, Coolock and so on, through which we are obliged to drive our buses. These people either take the DART or catch a No. 27, No. 42, No. 43, No. 29A or No. 31 bus. They are aware that, with the bus lanes, they can be in town within 30 minutes. These individuals embrace the notion of park and ride. The difficulty is that they park where they should not. Park and ride can work.

If someone was to examine the position in respect of this matter, it would make our job much simpler and would ease congestion. People are beginning to realise that bus lanes work, particularly the continuous ones on the Malahide Road and the Stillorgan Road, and that they can get where they want to go much more quickly. If we can encourage people to park their cars in a safe place and catch the bus, we would be halfway towards resolving the problems in this area.

I thank Mr. Charles for his contribution.

I welcome the delegation. I apologise for not being here earlier, I was involved in a debate on cancer services. It was good to hear our guests' views, particularly after what the representatives of the DTO said earlier. The latter informed us about the "big dig" and the 2010 plan, which was issued late in 2006 and which was presented to the committee. It appears the DTO is considering removing all traffic, with the exception of public transport vehicles and taxis, from O'Connell Street and College Green. As a result, private cars would not be in a position to use O'Connell Street, O'Connell Bridge and College Street. What is our guests' reaction to this? What effect would it have?

I accept that workers traversing the city in vans and other vehicles might encounter difficulties if this proposal comes to fruition. I did not have an opportunity to raise that matter with the representatives of the DTO because a vote was called in the Dáil. The DTO tends to forget the needs of a small sector of the population, namely those involved in small business and other workers who, of necessity, cannot use public transport. However, that is a separate issue. What would be the effect of removing the type of traffic to which I refer from the area in question?

On the "big dig", the metro order is due to proceed next year and the interconnector order will also possibly go ahead in 2010. There is a view that all of this work should be concluded by 2016 in time for the anniversary of the Easter Rising. How will work in this regard impact on the city centre and how will our guests deal with it.

Mr. Fallon spoke to me about freeflow and enforcement. In other capital cities such as Madrid or Paris the sole remit of the local traffic police is to keep traffic moving relentlessly. Officers will ensure that vehicles are towed away and will take other action in order to ensure that buses are able to keep moving. There is a view that a freeflow system which in place 12 months of the year would be beneficial to bus workers, drivers and commuters. What is our guests' position on this matter?

On the non-synchronisation of roadworks, the entire north side of the city was gridlocked for an hour because all the heavy vehicles were forced back out onto the roads. There are six locations between Fairview and Connolly Station at which roadworks are being carried out. As a result, buses are obliged to use the normal traffic lanes. I saw one man fixing a fence at Fairview Park and a number of traffic cones had been placed in the bus lane to divert traffic. To what extent are the views of bus drivers taken into account in respect of roadworks and the synchronisation thereof? We are used to seeing roadworks being carried out at night on national primary routes, etc.

It was unfortunate that so many roadworks were being carried out yesterday when the north side of the city became gridlocked. I accept that some roadworks are necessary. In my constituency, for example, the roads around Howth have been entirely dug up. However, members of the public accept the need for this because we can no longer dump sewage into Dublin Bay. As a result of the works being carried out, on certain days one might encounter four or five sets of temporary traffic lights within the space of one mile. To what extent are our guests consulted in respect of such matters? When the delegates from the DTO were before the committee, they raised the issue of buses parking in the city centre and drivers going for breaks, to which they are entitled. This issue is an old chestnut for the director, Mr. John Henry, and his staff. What is the reaction of this group to this and how does the group feel about significant numbers of buses being in the city centre? If a company is running a network with a significant morning and evening peak, it must have a bus fleet to cover that, which will give rise to congestion problems.

The Labour Party proposed in the run-in to the last election that as soon as possible after the election — if it had formed part of the Government — it would buy 500 buses. Without further ideological debate about privatisation plans of Deputies Brennan, Cullen or anybody else, it would have bought the 500 buses and got the maximum possible network up and running as quickly as possible, with orbital routes included. We would have ensured that for example, a person in Finglas, Ballsbridge, Crumlin or Coolock could see at a glance when a bus would arrive. We also planned to introduce a €1 fare for adults and a 50 cent fare for children. That was our strategy to get a modal shift away from private cars to buses, particularly during the morning and evening peak times. How does the group feel about that and does it support a position of action rather than further talking?

We have been discussing this issue for the past eleven years and longer, perhaps even for the past 25 years. We have had much talk, but little action. Does the group feel we should just get the required number of buses, get the extra staff and do the business as required by the public, which is get us all on the buses?

I welcome the delegation and would like to comment on some of the points made by Mr. Gerry Charles. It is great to meet the people at the coalface, because they are the people who know the problems. Their opinions could be utilised to more effect by the company. Is there any sort of forum where they can make suggestions or recommendations to the company or do they participate in that fashion? It is important their views are taken on board.

Deputy Broughan mentioned a stretch of road in Fairview where roadworks have been in progress for the past few weeks. This morning I noticed a truck being directed across the road by a workman. A timescale should be put in place for companies contracted to do this type of work. They should work at night or at off-peak times so as not to interfere with traffic movement, but this is not happening. This practice prevents drivers from doing their job properly. I have great admiration for bus drivers. They have a very tough job. They are excellent drivers, but they cannot drive when there are obstructions all around them and when other drivers move in and out of the bus lanes.

There is a problem with regard to bus lanes and we could do with some improvement in this area. In many places the bus lanes are not continuous, but are interrupted and buses must move in and out on the road. The Malahide Road is a typical example of this. I am sorry to hear people blame the drivers, because it is not their fault. Dublin Bus provides a good service overall, as people who use it will verify. There is no problem with regard to comfort and the buses get people to their destination quicker than a car would.

Mr. Charles made a point I made this morning about park and ride facilities. Let me give an example. A person contacted me about some land he had for sale in Ronanstown for a park and ride facility. He got on to Dublin Bus and the local authority about it, but even after eight months got nowhere. There does not appear to be any commitment to provide these facilities. We need to get to the bottom of this matter and not just talk about it. We could not get a definitive answer earlier from the DTO as to whose role it was to deal with this.

I have not heard much recently about the issue of security for drivers, but as a former trade union official this would be an issue of concern for me. Some routes have no-go areas for drivers and in some instances drivers have been abused or injured. Has that situation improved and what has Dublin Bus done about it?

My apologies for being late, I was chairing a meeting next door and could not be in both locations. Bus lanes are a major issue in terms of delivery of a good service to commuters. Do bus drivers have their own ideas on the issue? I understand the decisions are made and drivers just drive where they are told, but have they any input? Are there some routes on which experienced drivers could make recommendations? Could they recommend stretches that would suit the installation of a bus lane? Quick delivery of passengers through the city is the objective in terms of the overall problem of traffic congestion and getting people out of cars. Do drivers, who see the situation on a daily basis, have suggestions to make? If so, they should inform the committee and we can try to knock together the heads of all the responsible bodies to see if we can get a resolution. I think the bus companies are doing a fine job and passenger numbers prove that.

We will allow each company answer individually. We do not expect each of them to cover the entire ground because the official report will include the ideas expressed and be available to all. Before coming to the replies, I invite the committee Chairman, Deputy Fahey, to say a few words.

I apologise for not being here, but I was caught at another meeting. I have two questions. We all know congestion is a problem, but it is not a problem everywhere. Why do more people not use buses? Given all that has been said about congestion, particularly in view of the fact it is intended to clear the city centre of ordinary traffic, would the groups support the idea of a congestion charge in the city centre to allow buses move more easily?

Mr. Anthony Germaine

I will leave several points to the Dublin Bus group because I represent Kavanagh and Sons. A question was asked about getting coaches out of the city centre. Approximately 150 privately owned coaches bring people to the city each day. There should be a passenger drop off and parking point for these coaches. The passengers could then be shuttled into town on smaller, quicker service buses. We need park and ride facilities not just for cars, but for the big coaches that come to the city from the country.

It would be helpful if the large service coaches could be kept out of the city centre. Somewhere like the Phoenix Park could provide an area for a designated coach park that could be hidden from view. I know we cause havoc for Dublin Bus on Nassau Street as Dublin Bus drivers cannot pull into their bays if we are already there. I went around to look at the situation today. Coaches park there for up to two hours. I suggest they should only be allowed a 15-minute drop-off time in Nassau Street and should then move on. I am sure Dublin Bus curses us in these situations. Parking is the main issue for private operators.

Mr. Tony Fallon

There are many points to cover and the questions relate to problems we deal with on a daily basis. Nobody would be happier than bus drivers if we had a solution to these problems. Our job is known to be a very stressful job. Stress related illness among bus drivers is two to three times the industrial average. This is true for all of Europe, not just Ireland. Senator Brady asked if we have a forum to address issues. We do. At local level we would have a meeting every six weeks. All these sorts of problems regarding pinch points and bus lanes, problems being able to get into bus stops, problems being able to use a terminus even--

Is there a meeting with management?

Mr. Tony Fallon

Yes, we do have someone from the company who comes in and liaises between Dublin Bus and the local authorities. We constantly complain about the same thing all the time to them even in between the appointed time for the meetings every six weeks. We do not seem to be able to get a lot done on that. I do not think people are really listening to us. The complaints are passed on. I do not know whether it is the local authority that is just refusing to co-operate.

I will give one example. Members all know the length of a bus. When a bus is turning left from Hume Street into St. Stephen's Green we are going into the contraflow which only buses are supposed to use — we have problems there as well. To make that left turn, which is quite dangerous, we need to meet head-on traffic coming the other way coming in from Leeson Street. We need to depend on the goodwill and good sense of drivers to stop and let us make the full turn, otherwise we would be on a head on collision. We have complained about that many times. There is a simple solution to the problem — just move the stanchions out somewhat wider at the point where we need to make the turn. However, the local authority will not do that. That is a common theme. Things like that constantly come up that we just cannot get done. We talk until we are blue in the face but people do not seem to be listening.

I suggest that the drivers should write to us outlining the worst cases that they come across and we can take them up with the various agencies because there is no excuse for that.

Mr. Tony Fallon

It is quite a dangerous situation and it is an accident black spot. We have it up on the notice board in our garage stating that it is an accident black spot and it should not be. It is very easily solved.

Did the reversal of traffic on St. Stephen's Green make an overall improvement in traffic movement? A few years ago it was total gridlock. I know the point Mr. Fallon is making. It is extremely dangerous.

Mr. Tony Fallon

It is a health and safety issue for us

Do the drivers have any input into the location of a terminus? There is one in Donaghmede, with which Mr. Charles might be familiar, where the terminus is on the main road and it used to be on the far side. When we contacted the management we were informed that the union would not agree for the bus drivers to park elsewhere. It is causing traffic congestion and there have been a few accidents there.

Mr. Gerry Charles

I agree. I can outline what actually happened there. The 29A bus was to turn left there, go up to Clare Hall and swing around the roundabout at a new stop. However, it was decided to send the 29A down either to the new Clongriffin area or down to Baldoyle. There was talk about extending the 29A route and I believe the Senator was involved in discussions with the company, which would have let him know. The company stopped the buses going up. Unfortunately, it would have been an IR issue in that once a terminus is extended negotiations on different matters need to take place. The company was afraid that if it extended it in one direction, when negotiations took place and it needed to go in a different direction, it would start all over again. It was decided to stick with the old terminus until agreement could be reached, which has not yet happened because now the 128 bus is going to Clongriffin and there are other problems. There are IR issues from a company point of view. There should be no reason it is not extended and the terminus moved because, as outlined, it is the most dangerous place to park a bus. It is close to the roundabout on the N32 at Clare Hall and it is dangerous. Until somebody puts a bit of screwing on to it, it will not be done.

The Chairman, Deputy Fahey, asked why more people do not use buses.

Mr. Gerry Charles

To be quite honest, talking from the management point of view, my answer would be that if more people were travelling on buses we would have a major problem. To come back to Deputy Broughan, I will outline the one danger with our buses. If we had another 500 buses tomorrow we would probably ease the problem of more people getting on. With only a certain amount of buses operating and people starting to travel on them, if the authorities were to say as from next Monday all cars must be left at home and people must take public transport, which would be free, not everybody coming out would be able to get to where they want to go because the buses would be full. Our company works on the number of buses it has and the number of passengers. If 2,000 more people on a particular route were to take the bus, the bus would be full at a particular point and people who normally get the bus would be left standing. The DART and other rail services have the same problem. We would succeed in encouraging people to get on but the people further along the route could no longer get the bus and would go back to their cars. It is a catch-22 situation.

It would be possible to have another bus following the one that had been filled.

Mr. Gerry Charles

That is correct. My point is that we only have a certain number of buses operating on a particular route. We do not have any more. We have 82 buses in our garage in Clontarf and have approximately 12 routes to cover with those 82 buses.

Dublin Bus got 140 buses under Transport 21 and half of them were replacement buses.

Mr. Gerry Charles

Half of them were replacement buses because we are trying to get away from the type of bus we had.

I have stood in College Green at 6 p.m. and looked at the top of all the double-decker buses and seen no more than five people. I do not accept Mr. Charles's argument. We have the figures for the capacity of Dublin Bus and we have the figures for the numbers it is carrying, which indicate it is operating considerably below capacity. I am a convert. I was wedded to my car and now I use the bus considerably more and the same applies to the Vice Chairman. In reality the service is exceptionally good. The Dublin Bus drivers are great ambassadors. I suggest that we need to change the culture. However, we also need to get more buses, which is the objective of the committee. The problem is that people are not thinking. The bus is still the poor relation. Dublin Bus is an exceptionally good company which offers very good services. We need to change people's mindset and attitude.

Mr. Gerry Charles

That iscorrect. However, regarding the point about the six people on the bus going home in the evenings, one of the problems — from a driver’s point of view and not management’s — is that when we work in the morning going into town we are on full capacity at all times. If we are operating on the 27, 42, 43, 29A or 31 we are on full capacity going into town in the mornings. Most people go in to start work between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. or perhaps up to 9.45 a.m. However, they are finishing at 3.30 p.m., 4 p.m., 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. As a driver I notice there is more traffic on the road at 6.30 a.m. or 7 a.m. than there was 20 years ago. There is more traffic on the road at 3.30 p.m. or 4 p.m. than there is at 5 p.m., 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. because people have flexi-hours and different things. They are coming out at different times to get the bus to come home. It is easier coming home from work.

Is Mr. Charles suggesting Dublin Bus needs a full fleet all day?

Mr. Gerry Charles

Yes, definitely. I agree with Deputy Fahey. We need the buses in the morning to get the passengers in reliably so that when they come out they are going to get the bus and not be standing there and waiting another ten minutes for the next one, which might also be full. When they come in on the bus in the morning, there is no other way of coming home except on the bus and the same bus is able to take them home with the same frequency. With congestion the way it is that does not happen. We need to get rid of the congestion first, build more bus lanes, encourage people that it is much better than travelling in their cars and when we get them in we need the same format for getting them back. Once they get used to that they will start to travel on them. I hear people are converting; I know of people travelling on my bus. I have been on the 27 route for the past 14 years. I see people I have never seen before on the Malahide Road and everywhere else coming in. I get to talk to them and get to know them. Previously they used to use their cars. People are beginning to see the QBCs in Stillorgan and on the Malahide Road do the business. People are starting to talk and are starting to try it. From a driver's point of view the biggest concern would be when they all start coming out and filling the bus, resulting in the need to wait a little longer.

We will deal with that problem when it comes.

We are coming to the end of the meeting.

I would like to respond to Mr. Charles's point. Has consideration been given to an incentive like offering free bus journeys for a week?

Mr. Gerry Charles

Yes. It would be useful to try it for even one day.

We have had a little incentivisation of that nature.

Mr. Tony Fallon

Deputy Fahey said that when he stands in College Green, he sees very few people on the top levels of double-decker buses. Are the buses in question coming in or out of the city centre, or are they travelling on both directions?

I refer to all the buses I see going around.

Mr. Tony Fallon

Perhaps the Deputy is getting a false impression. Many cross-city buses which are full on the way into the city centre empty out just before they reach College Green, before filling up again on the way back out of the city centre. There would not necessarily be many people on buses travelling through College Green. People tend to stay on certain bus routes through the city centre, but not on others. There are many reasons more people do not choose to use buses. We need to stop talking about getting 500 more buses — it is time for action. It has been proven that people will use any route which benefits from increased frequency. When we get people on the bus, we have to give them priority all the way to their destinations. People will use services which are reliable — there is no problem in that regard. The buses we use at present are very comfortable. They do not have noisy engines or smelly fumes. There is plenty of room on the seats. People want to travel in comfort. They do not want to stand on a bus — they want to sit down. Many people who use the Luas feel that it is overcrowded and would prefer to avail of a more comfortable service. They will use the bus if they feel that a good service is being provided. We are starting to get the resources to deliver such a service. I will conclude by mentioning a bugbear of mine.

We will let Mr. Fallon conclude with the bugbear.

Perhaps he can also comment on the proposal to introduce a congestion charge.

Mr. Tony Fallon

I think it would be terrible to charge the people in such a manner.

I also raised some issues.

We are intending to try out the congestion charge in Galway first. We will see how it works in Galway.

Mr. Tony Fallon

People in the media like to pass remarks about buses being parked around the city, for example in Parnell Square.

Mr. Tony Fallon

When I work on the 14 route, I sometimes park in Parnell Square while I am having a cup of coffee. I am involved in discussions with the company on the schedules within my own garage. The unpredictability of Dublin traffic means that we have to build flexibility into the schedules. One cannot predict traffic from day to day or from hour to hour. It depends on a variety of factors, such as the weather and the schools. It is impossible to predict the traffic. If I arrive in Parnell Square 20 minutes early, I will have to wait there. We used to have an agreement to wait in Mountjoy Square, but the Irish Georgian Society had a problem with that. People object no matter where we go. We are told by the Department of Transport that all the journeys on the timetable must operate, which is fine. If that is to happen, however, we have to build some flexibility into the schedule. If I get into Parnell Square 20 minutes late, the bus still goes out on its outward journey. The journey is still done because we have built enough time into the system to do that. We need to be flexible if we are to maximise reliability. That is why buses are sometimes parked in Parnell Square for 20 minutes. We are starting to move our termini further and further out of the city. The terminus of the 140 route is on the canal, near Leeson Street. The drivers on that route are getting hassled because ladies of the night think we are interfering with their business. The terminus of the 128 route is in Palmerston Park. The routes in question have ten-minute frequencies. While we are making progress, we could do without the cheap shots that are coming our way.

We must bring proceedings to an end. We are grateful to the bus drivers for contributing to the interesting hour of debate we have had. As the Chairman mentioned, if the drivers would like the committee to consider any other views and ideas, they should send a submission to the committee secretariat. We greatly appreciate the work done by those on the front line. I thank Mr. Germaine, Mr. Fallon and Mr. Charles.

Mr. Gerry Charles

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the committee for giving us an opportunity to outline the problems we have to face every day.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 March 2008.
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