Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 2008

Taxi Regulations: Discussion with Taxi Associations and Commission for Taxi Regulation.

The first item on our agenda is a discussion with the three representatives of the taxi associations in Dublin, Waterford and Galway who are accompanied by a number of taxi association representatives from other areas, particularly Cork. They are all welcome. I am sure the drivers from Cork understand it was not possible to include everybody. We will certainly be happy to give them another opportunity to present their case to the committee should it be necessary to do so. I have had a discussion with them today and it is fair to say the problems for taxi drivers are similar in all cities.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. John Tebay, Waterford, Mr. James Connolly, Galway, and Mr. Richard Ryan, Dublin. The taxi regulator will also attend the meeting after the presentation but is listening to the proceedings elsewhere.

The purpose of this meeting is to hear the views of the taxi associations on the difficulties they face. This follows many discussions with and recommendations from taxi drivers and their associations. The committee wants to put to the regulator some of the issues raised. We want to examine the possibility of the committee making a recommendation to the Minister for Transport for changes to primary legislation to ensure the better regulation of taxi services.

The committee is not in the business of stifling competition in the taxi industry. However, the question of giving the regulator the power to apply a cap on the number of taxi licences where competition exists is one which the committee will examine. The regulator should have the power to place or remove a cap where she feels competition is in place and where the number of taxis operating gives rise to chaos in the market due to problems with taxi ranks, parking and so forth.

On a point of order, there are other aspects to the discussions. Accepting all the points made by the Chair, I have made it clear the committee wants to consult with members of the public, the people who use taxis, to examine other issues such as services late at night and at weekends.

The Chair referred to the committee but did not include my input. I want it made crystal clear that these discussions are about a service to the public, which must include discussion with them. When the Chair referred to a cap on competition, that is a view he may have but may not necessarily be shared by every member of the committee.

A service to the public is inherent in all I am saying. We will be inviting members of the public to make submissions to the committee on taxi services. I will reiterate for Deputy O'Dowd that we are not talking about a cap on competition.

I do not want the taxi people to be mislead on this issue. We must have total clarity on the issue.

Nobody is misleading anybody. We will also be inviting the Competition Authority to advise the committee on the issue. That is because of our desire to ensure competition is foremost in whatever recommendations are made by the committee.

Mr. John Tebay

In Waterford we have major concerns with the taxi industry. The core issues stem from the amount of new entrants into the local market and the lack of spaces provided by Waterford City Council, resulting in major difficulties in accessing taxi ranks in a safe manner, in turn affecting our income which has been eroded in the past few years. The amount of hours we have to work to make a living makes it a health and safety issue while family life is being affected also.

The regulator may be "Always Driving Forward" but in Waterford, we are driving around the block all the time. This is having a major effect on the environment due to emissions from taxis. The city manager has recognised the local market demand simply does not exist for the number of taxis operating in the city. The strategic policy committee on transport has recognised this situation. The Garda has also acknowledged that the market has come to saturation point.

Since the deregulation of taxi licensing in 2000, the number of licensed taxis in Waterford has increased from 39 to approximately 370. The number of taxi rank spaces prior to deregulation was 39, at which it has remained. Every day we have major issues with the Garda and city officials concerning parking and congestion in and around the city centre ranks.

It is the council's remit to provide taxi rank spaces. The spaces have to be in the right areas, where the customers require them, such as within the city centre and along the green routes. There is no point in providing rank spaces in areas where they are not viable to use. We must provide our customers with the facilities in the right areas, especially in the centre of the city.

The introduction of quality facilities would lead to a safer, accessible, customer friendly service, alleviate the pressure on taxi drivers at peak times and enable us to operate in a professional manner.

We are working longer hours to make a living. This in turn is affecting our quality of life to the detriment of our health and family life. Our income has been eroded in the past two years by the issuing of so many new licences and the lack of provision of taxi rank spaces by the city council. The bottom line is, if the taxi cannot get on the taxi rank or into the queuing system, we cannot operate in a viable, efficient manner.

The customer is our bread and butter. It is in our best interests to provide a customer friendly service to one and all. Fuel costs have doubled in the past several years, adding to the financial pressure. Taxi drivers are very vulnerable as regards to the use of seatbelts. This issue should be opened up in some forum, so we can give our opinion on the matter. This comes into play with the amount of taxis having to cruise around the city, adding to congestion and emissions.

The relevant regulatory authorities - Waterford City Council, the Garda, the Commission for Taxi Regulation - must take on board our concerns with all aspects of the taxi industry. There is a need for a taxi forum to be established, which would involve all taxi drivers from all parts of the country. In tandem with this, a charter on taxi drivers' rights should also be drawn up.

Currently, we are being dictated to in a regulatory fashion. There has to be meaningful consultation and communication between all relevant bodies and a joint approach should be made to save our industry. There needs to be an immediate cap on the issuing of licences. This will benefit all concerned in protecting the position of the customer and the service provider.

Mr. Richard Ryan

The real increase in the number of taxis in Dublin since I entered the industry in 2003 is not accurately reflected in the published statistics. Due to the new national numbering system, there is no way of knowing how many taxis are operating in Dublin city. Subjectively, in the past five years, particularly overnight at weekends, actual taxi numbers on Dublin's streets have, without exaggeration, doubled.

As a result, the city's hopelessly inadequate taxi ranks are no longer merely overflowing, but are frequently deluged with taxis queuing to get on, causing congestion, obstruction and traffic chaos. Queuing off the rank is illegal and subject to sanction by the Garda and taxi commission inspectors. However, it is now impossible to earn a living as a Dublin taxi driver without queuing illegally off the ranks.

The ranks are our places of work. Imagine if civil servants or factory workers queuing to enter their work places risked fines for vagrancy. It is laughable but that is the dilemma Dublin taxi drivers face because of excessive taxi numbers combined with inadequate taxi rank spaces.

Due to the frequent impossibility of getting onto a rank, taxi drivers are forced to cruise the streets plying for hire. This system may work in London and New York but in Dublin, it does not. In the main, Dubliners are in the habit of going to the rank for a taxi. Consequently, cruising is highly cost-ineffective, compounding the need for drivers to queue illegally off the ranks to earn a living.

Additionally, high numbers of cruising taxis exacerbate traffic congestion and pollution in the city. At night, the city streets are often a sea of taxi lights, frequently in traffic jams of their own making. At peak times, it is hard to imagine how the situation could get worse. However, with more taxis coming on to the road every week, worse it will get.

Taxi drivers are increasingly unable to earn enough to meet their financial commitments. Subsequently, drivers are working longer, and in some cases excessive, hours. This is patently bad for their health, for their family lives and for public safety, and with increased numbers of taxis out at any given time, the problems of traffic congestion are further compounded.

In the current economic downturn, demand is inexorably decreasing as taxi numbers continue to grow, meaning that drivers will be increasingly forced to work more hours, until finally the butter will spread no further over the bread and the industry will implode in anarchy. The first essential step in preventing that outcome is an immediate moratorium on the issue of taxi plates, including measures to prevent the value of existing plates inflating.

Finally, I want to make an observation on the issue of racism in the taxi industry. I have been a trade unionist all my adult life and as such I am vehemently anti-racist. So I am deeply concerned about a situation in the Irish taxi industry which I believe is fomenting racism, both in the industry and in the wider community.

There have been reports in the press and on the Internet of passengers avoiding taxis with non-national drivers. I have seen this on taxi ranks, where people will wait until a non-national driver's position at the front of the line is taken by somebody else. My initial reaction was outrage. However, over the past months, having listened to reports from passengers, I have come to realise that such actions are motivated less by innate racism than by bad experiences.

The evidence is anecdotal, but its persistence and repetitive character indicates that there is indeed "something rotten in the state of Denmark". Every day I hear complaints from passengers that a non-national driver has not known some basic Dublin destination, including recently Lucan, Foxrock, Rathfarnham, Swords, the RDS, the Radisson St. Helen's Hotel, and even Ballsbridge. Then, when the passenger has given directions, the driver has had to be told every turn. Alternatively, the driver has taken off in a completely wrong direction, and when directed to the destination, has aggressively insisted on being paid the full inflated fare. There are so many of these stories from such a wide variety of passengers that the weight of evidence is overwhelming.

Clearly, it is impossible for anyone who has legitimately passed the Dublin PSV test, even on his or her first day out, not to know where Ballsbridge is, let alone how to get there from St. Stephen's Green. In which case, are such drivers illegal cosies without PSV licences and insurance? Have they accessed all the PSV test papers - I believe there are a limited number - and learned the answers by rote? Has someone else sat the PSV test for them? It seems many non-national drivers do not have an adequate knowledge of the capital city, which begs the question as to whether they have PSV licences and if they do, how did they get them.

In light of the above, it is clear that the best safeguard in future would be the early introduction of a practical PSV driving test, including a face-to-face interview with random questions on destinations and routes and an assessment of proficiency in English. In the meantime, repeated negative passenger experiences with non-national taxi drivers will only serve to promote negative attitudes to non-national people generally, which will in turn contribute to the broader advancement of xenophobia and racism in Irish society. For this reason, as well as to quell the mounting sense of injustice among legitimate taxi drivers at unqualified or illegal non-national drivers cheating the system and depriving them of income at a time of increasing hardship, this matter must be addressed and redressed by the responsible authorities as a matter of urgency.

I thank Mr. Ryan. It is important to point out that many Irish people operate illegally as well. The third speaker is Mr. James Connolly from Galway.

Mr. James Connolly

I am an executive member of the western region of the NTDU and thank the committee for its invitation to address it on current taxi concerns.

Historically, the local city councils, in consultation with the taxi fraternity and the Garda Síochána, knew the needs regarding numbers of taxi licences and worked together successfully. This became a problem with the increased size and population of Dublin, but it was still being sensibly addressed when due to media pressure, particularly at Christmas time, deregulation occurred in November 2000. Deregulation was ill-conceived and amounted to a monumental blunder, apart from being a misnomer. We now have more regulations than ever before in tandem with disorder in every aspect of taxi activity, which once was called a business.

Deregulation quickly destroyed pride in a business which had been a cornerstone of social behaviour in Irish cities. We, the taxi drivers, were the second police force - the eyes and ears of the public, helping out in so many ways, apart from transporting people from A to B in safety. Many serious crimes were solved through vital evidence provided by taxi people. I know this first-hand from both sides of this scenario as I am a retired Garda detective. Good relations with gardaí have been largely replaced by resentment, due to the non-enforcement and selective enforcement of taxi and traffic regulations. As the committee may be aware, suicides have occurred as a direct result of the financial hardship caused by deregulation.

Galway gardaí stated on local radio on Monday last that they issued 158 parking tickets last Saturday night. They also said that this was only the start. In Galway where I work we now have in excess of 1,150 taxis for a population of 75,000 - at the last census - not to mention hundreds of hackneys. We have approximately 65 taxi rank spaces in which to stand for hire. As a result, there are constant tailbacks of taxis queuing to join the different ranks. These cars are frequently parked illegally on double yellow lines, footpaths, zebra crossings, loading bays and are double parked, etc. If they were not parked in this way we have to keep driving around wasting expensive fuel, thus damaging the environment and incurring extra wear and tear on parts and nerves. For several months there have been between eight and 15 taxis for sale in the local Galway newspapers every week, which is indicative of the situation where people are getting out of the business.

The Garda Síochána launches occasional attacks on illegal parking. Last Saturday night was a perfect example. I had submitted this statement beforehand. Taxis are run or ticketed which is understandable, legally. Once in a while the taxi regulator's enforcement team descends on a town or city and issues €250 on-the-spot fines for plying for hire outside a taxi stand. Remember, there are 65 spaces and 1,150 or more cars.

A colleague of mine dropped a fare at Jury's Inn, Galway, cleared his meter and was in the act of pulling away when an enforcement officer from the regulator's office hailed him and asked whether he was for hire. On being told he was, the enforcement officer identified himself and issued a €250 on-the-spot fine for plying for hire other than at a designated taxi stand. This is entrapment in law. There are nine enforcement officers for the 26 counties, all based in Dublin. There is no need to elaborate.

Lack of knowledge of the geographical area of Galway is scandalous. Abuse of passengers by drivers including serious assaults on both sides is all too common. Overcharging is common. Disharmony, disrespect and non co-operation are well established and growing among taxi drivers in Galway. The ability to earn a decent income is long gone by way of working normal hours. Many drivers are working long hours - 14 hours a day is typical - to try and make ends meet. They are a danger to themselves and road users as well as their passengers, who are entitled to a safe journey. Others are double jobbing, having full-time work and coming out mostly at weekend nights taxi driving. The discerning passenger now has to carefully select a driver whenever possible and will feel unsafe on the journey if he or she cannot do so. In short, standards have been allowed to drop to a dangerous level. Complaints are not being made because very often the victim is intoxicated and has no recollection of any details with which to pursue his or her alleged abuse.

We in the NTDU have co-operated with the two taxi regulators to date but got little or no satisfaction for our requests on many issues, particularly on lack of proper enforcement. The same has to be said of our PSV inspector in Galway - on the matter of knowledge of the area by PSV driver licence applicants. This is in addition to what the committee has seen already. I suggest that any PSV licence applicant should be resident here for a minimum of five years to enable a background check to be conducted.

The taxi regulator's mission statement reads, "To achieve a first class professional, efficient, safe and accessible, customer friendly service, for small public service vehicle passengers and service providers". This is farcical given the current situation. The regulator has played ping-pong with local authorities regarding section 11 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 which deals with the "provision of infrastructure to facilitate and support the operation of small public service vehicles", including borrowings under this section and section 27 of the said Act. Both Ms Doyle and her predecessor Mr. Deering were most reluctant to accept the obvious interpretation of those sections. Because of lack of taxi spaces, the sections quickly became the focus of taxi drivers' attention. The local authorities continue to blame the regulator for issuing too many taxi licences whereas the regulator blames the local authorities for lack of taxi spaces, without meaningfully engaging with them under section 11 of the Act.

It is very frustrating when members of such bodies have to be educated by us on relevant legislation. I regularly meet people who give me unsolicited accounts of their bad experiences with certain taxi drivers. These come under three headings: first, overcharging, second, lack of knowledge of the area and poor communication skills, and third, bad behaviour. It is past the 11th hour but if the committee wishes to recommend something to stop the madness, it should be the following: first, to amend the existing legislation to enable the taxi regulator immediately to stop the issue of any further taxi licences until further notice; second, to direct the Garda Commissioner stringently to enforce existing regulations regarding the issue of PSV driver's licences through his chief superintendents; and third, with the taxi regulator, to exhort local authorities vastly to increase the number of taxi ranks in their remit by creating new ones and doubling loading bays as taxi ranks outside business hours where suitable. Nothing short of these three measures will address a decline that is so far advanced.

Even with this and the best will in the world, it will be a long road back to a respectable service. The Government acceded to the wishes of our industry in enacting legislation and creating the position of taxi regulator to administer the industry properly. Sadly, that office has neglected and-or failed in its mission, which is why we are here today. I thank the committee members for their time and attention. I particularly thank the Chairman for his obvious knowledge of our problems.

We will allow some quick questions and we then want to bring in the regulator. With regard to the issue of taxi licences and vehicles being for sale on a regular basis, will the three witnesses give us a synopsis of the situation or does such a situation exist?

Mr. Richard Ryan

Does the Chairman mean the transfer of taxi licences?

Yes. Mr. Connolly stated that there are quite a number of taxi licences together with vehicles for sale in each of the main cities. Is this correct?

Mr. Richard Ryan

I could not comment on that. It would not affect me on a day-to-day basis. I have my licence and do the job. It is impossible to say if this contributes to the difficulties we are discussing today. I do not feel qualified to comment.

Mr. John Tebay

In Waterford there are a few taxi licences for sale and these are advertised in the newspapers every week.

Are they licences or--

Mr. John Tebay

It is the licences and the cars.

Is that permissible?

Mr. John Tebay

Yes.

What of the situation in Galway?

Mr. James Connolly

Any week one reads the Galway Advertiser, which is a free newspaper published on Thursday, there will be a minimum of a half a dozen examples, and I have seen up to 15 or 16 in one week last autumn. It is there for anyone to read in that newspaper, which has a particular section heading “Taxis”, which contains advertisements for drivers, shareholders for companies and so on. That newspaper shows that a significant number of people wish to get out of the business in Galway on a regular basis. I do not know how many are repeat advertisements but I know they are in the newspaper regularly.

The witnesses have all asked for a cap to be put on the number of taxi licences or for the number be curtailed. Do they understand this is not possible given the competition regulations that exist and the constitutional issues involved? This is a fact of life. Do the witnesses have proposals as to how some control on the number of taxis in operation could be introduced? They referred to health and safety, the working time directive and the number of hours taxi drivers must work. I understand there is concern about the number of part-time drivers who have other employment. Do the witnesses have suggestions for the committee as to how these two questions might be addressed?

Mr. James Connolly

Yes. There is one aspect, which I list as the second point in my presentation, namely, to request the Garda Commissioner to enforce existing legislation and regulations regarding the suitability of drivers, which would incorporate good character. I wish to be clear - I am not impugning anyone's good character. In tandem with this, knowledge of the area is vital, an issue which goes back to the inception of taxi plates and licences when the driver had to have a satisfactory knowledge of the area. That is clearly not the case currently and is part of the bigger problem. If this problem had not been allowed to develop in the first place by the Garda Síochána, we would not have as bad a problem as we have today. Even at this late hour, we should revert to proper examination of prospective taxi drivers. This is a separate issue to that regarding plate owners because, while a person can own a taxi plate and not have a driver's licence, to drive a taxi one must have a driver's licence. I am talking about suitability, from my experience of--

Is Mr. Connolly saying people do not have drivers' licences?

Mr. James Connolly

They are not qualified to have a licence. They do not have the knowledge. This is why people have difficulty when they hire taxis and the driver does not know where, for example, Ballsbridge is in Dublin or where the shopping centre or Jury's Inn is in Galway when coming from Eyre Square. The Chairman knows Galway well. This is an area where improvement could be made without changing anything.

I accept the point but I reject Mr. Connolly's suggestion that a person should live in the country for five years, which would be entirely unacceptable and discriminatory. We would not accept that for one moment.

Mr. James Connolly

I appreciate that.

Mr. John Tebay

The bottom line is that there are too many licences at present and we cannot operate in a viable fashion. The way things are going, I will be signing on the live register. That is the way it is at present, particularly in Waterford. Our backs are to the wall.

Surely that is competition.

Mr. John Tebay

It is great to have competition if we have the proper facilities in place but they are not in place.

Is Mr. Tebay suggesting that if the facilities such as taxi rank spaces were in place, he would have no problem?

Mr. John Tebay

I am not saying we would have no problem but it would be better than the current situation.

Mr. Richard Ryan

Competition is fine if it serves not just the interests of the consumer but of the supplier also. Any industry is a balance. If it does not serve both sides of the equation, it will not be successful. We have a situation where if there is a continued free run on the issue of taxi plates, the cities will not be able handle the volume of taxis on streets and taxi drivers will not be able to earn a proper living. The whole character of the industry is changing for the worse.

Equally, the PSV driving licence system is clearly being systematically abused. Something is going on. People who are simply not qualified to have them are getting PSV driving licences. I have suggested a couple of reasons this may happen but the issue needs to be investigated.

The Chairman asked how we can reduce the number of cabs on the road without a cap on the number of plates. One way would be to simply get illegal and unqualified drivers off the road, whatever their ethnicity or origin. There are many of them out there. If we can address this reality seriously and with moral courage, it would go a long way towards helping the situation.

I agree that the Garda must enforce the regulations. I also agree that every taxi driver should be familiar with the area in which he or she works. That is critical and it is a matter for the regulator to ensure it is the case. I also accept the point that people must be able to make a living in the business. That is one side of the argument. The other side, however, is that the consumer must come first. Taxi drivers provide a service to the public. The difficulty with the imposition of a cap is that it would automatically restrict the number of taxis available to the public at any particular time, leading to problems of supply at peak times. I am opposed to a cap for this reason. However, if the witnesses can show us examples from other jurisdictions of how a cap can be imposed while also guaranteeing adequate taxi availability at times of peak demand, it may be an option we could explore.

On the issue of taxi drivers who are not familiar with the area in which they are working, the key point is that it is not a question of country of origin or ethnicity. A driver who is not well acquainted with all local routes is not fit to offer a taxi service, regardless of where he or she is from. I accept Mr. Ryan's assertion that the argument he makes is not racist. I do not wish to go down that road. He has clarified his point regarding drivers' knowledge of their area. It is a key point.

Mr. Richard Ryan

There may well be people cheating the system across the board.

Yes, no matter who they are.

Mr. Richard Ryan

However, Irish drivers who cheat the system do not contribute to the advancement of racism in our society. I am concerned that it is different in the case of non-national drivers.

The key point, as Mr. Ryan observed, is that anybody who does not know his or her area should not be driving a taxi.

Mr. Richard Ryan

Absolutely.

It has nothing to do with skin colour, religion or the number of years a person is resident in the State. Mr. Ryan's arguments are more strongly made when they are set in that context.

We are prepared to listen to any proposal Mr. Ryan might wish to make, with particular focus on the experience in other jurisdictions. However, the consumer must come first and the fundamental consideration must be the availability of a taxi service when it is required. That is the other side of the equation.

Mr. Richard Ryan

Taxi consumers are also citizens and residents of our cities and towns. They are pedestrians, cyclists and motorists. All residents of our cities are suffering because of the oversupply of taxis on the roads. Traffic jams and congestion at taxi ranks do not affect only the taxi drivers. Such a glut does not simply represent a festival of supply for consumers to enjoy. Everybody is suffering from the problems this is creating in cities, particularly at night. It is not a simple equation where oversupply is necessarily good for the public.

I want to follow up on the point made by Deputy O'Dowd in expressing his opposition to a cap. We must get down to basics. Do we accept that 12,000 taxis are enough for Dublin, 300 for Mullingar and 350 for Navan? That is the bottom line. I made the point earlier that if there are five hotels together, there is no living to be made for anybody. People must be sensible.

My experience of the taxi service is generally positive. Trebling the number of taxi licences will not improve the service. People do not expect a bus or train to be waiting outside their front door as soon as they step out of it. Taxi drivers sometimes complain to me about some of the applicants for the PSV licence. It seems a pass rate of only 37% is required.

Mr. Richard Ryan

I understand it is 70%.

Applicants are allowed a 30% shortfall. Must applicants in Britain demonstrate complete proficiency or are they allowed to come short by 30%?

Do the delegates know how many part-time taxi drivers are union members? It has been mentioned that there are people working a 35 or 40 hour week in another job such as construction and driving a taxi to supplement their income. Should we be concerned about the safety issues that may arise in these cases? In any business, we must create an environment where those involved can enjoy a decent living. That is the key.

Mr. Richard Ryan

That is what I meant by looking after both sides of the equation. It is not possible to clap with one hand. That is our current experience.

Mr. James Connolly

London is probably the foreign city with which Irish people are most familiar. Taxi drivers there must pass an examination of their familiarity with the city, known as "the knowledge", before they receive their licence. That system has been in place for decades. It is a difficult test and some people only pass it on the fourth or fifth attempt. This is a critical issue. Tourism is vital to our economy. When tourists or business people avail of a taxi to go to a particular address, they often find that the taxi driver has no idea how to get there. The driver may take a longer route than necessary and charge an exorbitant price, thus delaying and causing distress to the customer. This presents a terribly poor image of our country. A taxi driver is often the first person with whom a tourist or business visitor has contact and this encounter may well inform the latter's opinion of the State. It is a poor reflection on the place if the taxi driver does not know how to get to the requested location or overcharges for the journey. This applies equally in the case of people from elsewhere in the State who travel to Dublin. Thousands come to Dublin every day for hospital appointments and so on. Many of them are not familiar with the city and some may never have visited before. Some of them may be short of time because their train has been delayed and they are relying on a taxi to get them to their destination as quickly as possible.

The taxi service is an integral part of the transport system but the current standard is disgraceful. There is no point saying otherwise because I have experienced it at first hand, as have so many of my friends and colleagues. Too many drivers are unfamiliar with the area in which they are working. Fundamental knowledge of the locality should be required to obtain a licence to drive a taxi. An applicant who does not have that knowledge should not receive a licence.

On the issue of licence numbers, I still see queues at the taxi ranks in Galway city at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. on a weekend night. It is the same in Dublin and everywhere else. No matter how many taxis are on the road, there will be an artificial shortage at peak times. That cannot be eliminated but what should be done the rest of the time? I see problems in Galway in the mornings, with people standing in the rain at the rank waiting for a taxi to bring them to work. Few taxi drivers will go out in the mornings because the earnings to be made are insufficient to make it worthwhile. Who will get up at 6 a.m. to earn, if they are lucky, €5 or €6.50 an hour or a similar figure and then go back to bed at 9.30 a.m.? That is what is happening.

Mr. John Tebay

As for health and safety issues, in Waterford a couple of taxi drivers come out on Fridays. They finish work at 5 p.m. or whatever, go to the car park, put their taxi plate onto the car and go out to work another shift. This is a health and safety issue because were they to fall asleep in the car, it would be highly dangerous. A couple of drivers are taking the cream on the weekend while we must pick up the slack on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays. It is unreal.

I refer to Dublin in particular. Some of the statistics I have examined suggest that, per head of population, Dublin has more taxis than, for example, London. I believe that we have enough taxis. While the issues I wish to raise are more for the regulator, I will raise with the drivers complaints I receive as a Deputy regarding the job on Friday and Saturday nights. In general, people do not encounter problems during the day as there is a sufficient number of taxis operating sufficiently frequently. However, there are not enough taxis on Friday and Saturday nights between midnight and 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. When I ask some taxi drivers about the hours they work, they reply they do not wish to work on Saturday night because it means trouble, with people vomiting in the car, not paying the fare or whatever. As taxi operators, how do the witnesses envisage the resolution of this problem? Is there a means by which the regulator could make it mandatory for one to carry out a certain percentage of one's working week during those anti-social hours? By its nature, a taxi service should be available 24-7 and if 90% of taxi operators decide not to work during those unsociable hours, possibly for very good reasons, we must resolve that issue.

As for the test, an Irish constituent failed it and asked me to ascertain the reason. The Garda was able to tell me the questions that were asked on the paper. The questions included were fairly simple, such as the location of the Gresham Hotel or the RDS. It was suggested that I ask my constituent to attend a taxi school. The witnesses should comment on other people who supposedly have passed the test without the proper knowledge. Are they getting a grind and receiving a mark of 70% without having a clue?

Mr. Richard Ryan

The taxi school in Mount Street consists of a one-day course which teaches one what one must find out. It does not give one the knowledge but tells one what one must learn. One is then obliged to go off for however many weeks or months it takes to acquire that knowledge. It provides one with the parameters within which one must work. It is not a grind in that sense.

Is a form of identification used when a person sits the examination? For example, would I be obliged to show identification to prove myself to be Michael Kennedy with matching insurance and from the same place?

Mr. Richard Ryan

While I cannot remember the details of my test, obviously this system is being abused somehow.

Mr. Richard Ryan

Whatever happens in respect of the taxi industry in future, it will be absolutely essential to tighten up the position regarding public service vehicle driving licences. It must be made more effective than is the case at present as it simply is not working.

What about the weekend usage?

Mr. Richard Ryan

Weekend usage is a tricky issue. It is a function not so much of the taxi industry but of the licensing laws. In Dublin, tens of thousands of people pour out of nightclubs and pubs at the same time. Even where 20,000 taxis are available, one could not take everyone home at the same time. My guess is that the majority of the taxis in the city are out at that time. However, taxis cannot work 24-7. Anyone who is not working overnight on the weekend works long hours during weekdays and they are entitled to their hours off. The idea of making it obligatory for every taxi driver or for certain taxi drivers to work certain hours simply will not work. One cannot ask someone to work with dispatch operators for 12 hours during the day from Monday to Friday and then oblige him or her to come out for another 12 hours, or even four hours, in the early hours on Saturday and Sunday.

This is where the free market clearly is working. I believe the majority of taxi drivers are out on those nights because it is when one can earn. I refer to a few hours from 1 a.m. to 4 a.m., a period that probably now has been reduced to approximately between 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. One can make a reasonable amount of money during those early hours of the morning when the licensed premises close. Consequently, one does not need to oblige taxi drivers to come out as they are queuing up to get out there at that time. The problem arises when they come out at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. in order to be there at that time. This is when the ranks are crowded and when Dame Street, Dawson Street and St. Stephen's Green are gridlocked with taxis queuing around the block. The problem arises when the demand is not there.

I welcome the witnesses before the joint committee. Much has been achieved in respect of driver identification and driver courtesy and their knowledge. As for the availability of taxis, there may be an over-supply in Dublin, whereas many years ago the opposite was the case. Today's meeting has been highly valuable in this regard.

I will hark back to Dublin as I cannot understand the reason taxis still are being charged to use the port tunnel. This is my third time to make this point in the joint committee, which I also made to the Dublin transport authorities. What is the reason a taxi or its passenger travelling from Dublin Airport is charged for coming through the port tunnel? This issue must be considered and the port tunnel's operator has been asked for its views. I ask the taxi drivers for their views. I consider it to be unfair and it forces more taxis going to the RDS, Sandymount or wherever on to the road network instead of using the port tunnel.

Mr. Richard Ryan

And other tolls.

Yes. This serious issue of tolling taxis must be addressed because eventually the costs are passed on to the passenger. This issue should be examined.

Mr. Richard Ryan

The port tunnel is particularly important because if taxis were not obliged to charge their passengers the €12 toll in peak hours, it would reduce some of the congestion on the Swords Road and on the route to the airport. Many people simply cannot pay €12 on top of the taxi fare.

I have raised this issue many times and it should be addressed sooner rather than later. It must be addressed.

On that issue, the joint committee will make a recommendation to the Minister that taxis and buses should be allowed to use the tunnel as part of our bus network initiative.

I apologise for missing a portion of the meeting. I was scheduled to speak on the proposed European reform treaty at the same time and was obliged to remain in the Dáil Chamber for a while.

I warmly welcome the witnesses from the National Taxi Drivers Union, the Irish Taxi Drivers Federation and I acknowledge the presence of the delegation of taxi drivers from Cork city, namely, John Murray, Martin Heffernan, John Harkin and William Wyse, who are in the Visitors Gallery.

I served as a city councillor for more than 12 years until the dual mandate was ended. In the era when I was the leader of the Labour Party on Dublin City Council, we spent a great deal of time discussing taxi numbers. The original debate concerned an expansion in numbers of between 100 and 150 per annum. There was fierce opposition from the then drivers and owners to such an expansion. A change of Government was followed by the sudden introduction of 800 licences. Thereafter, in its wisdom, the Government suddenly deregulated the industry. I refer to this from the point of view of the city. At the time of the aforementioned debate, particularly in respect of the wages and conditions of taxi workers, both sides wanted a system whereby people could earn a decent living with a reasonable effort. However, I have been in receipt of letters and communications from places such as Kilbarrack and Donaghmede in my constituency and from all over the country on the fact that taxi drivers consider themselves to be under tremendous pressure. No one wished to create that. It is an important debate and it is incumbent on the committee to try to develop a system in which the working conditions of people would be taken into account. I know many things will have been considered. I presume the delegation has addressed the issue of fares in respect of the complaints we tend to get when we take taxis, which we do quite regularly as politicians going to and returning from functions. There is the question of how the massive increase in oil prices has affected taxi drivers. The delegation addressed the committee in this respect.

Has the delegation also addressed the committee in respect of entry to the profession and allegations that, at times, undesirable people have been allowed to get taxi and small public service vehicle licences? It is incumbent on the Chairman and the Minister for Transport to bring the legislation in as soon as possible. I do not know why we do not have that legislation. It is ridiculous. I hope this will be progressed.

The people who complain to me tend to be people whom I would regard as full-time workers. They are the people I see on the rank in Raheny and the big rank in Donaghmede, neither of which have proper provision for the taxi business to allow people to come and go. Some of the submissions we received revealed that very well. Even suburban areas such as north-east Dublin have the same problem, with the possible exception of a place such as Howth. The delegation seems to feel there is no problem with someone in a highly paid job within a structured profession leading to advancement going out and competing day after day with someone who is driving a taxi as their only source of income. It seems to feel that this is acceptable and that is the way it is. Is it not possible to get a cohort of full-time drivers who could provide, and possibly are providing, the taxi service to the city?

I welcome that we are having this debate. I hope to liaise with people working in the profession, as I have always done. If some of these issues can be moved forward, it will be a very valuable meeting.

I welcome Mr. Connolly, Mr. Tebay and Mr. Ryan to the meeting and the taxi drivers from Cork. In particular, Mr. Ryan outlined some horror stories experienced by customers. I want to get to the bottom of why this is happening. Either people are getting small public service vehicle driver's licences who should not be getting them - Mr. Connolly indicated that this is the case - or people are driving taxis who do not have such a licence. Can the delegation outline what it regards as the flaws in the system in respect of issuing small public service vehicle licences? Are tests by the Garda sufficiently rigorous and if not, how can they be improved?

Can the delegation give members an indication of the enforcement levels the Garda applies to taxi drivers? Does its members regularly ask taxi drivers to show their small public service vehicle licences or are a significant number of taxis being driven by people who do not have such licences?

Mr. Richard Ryan

In respect of enforcement, I have been asked for my ID two or three times in five years, once by the Carriage Office in the early days and a few times by the Commission for Taxi Regulation inspectors. I have frequently been pulled up at Garda checkpoints to check road tax but I have never once had my ID checked by the Garda.

The standard of the public service vehicle test is probably adequate. The full London "knowledge" where, as my colleague has described, one must spend two years driving around on a bicycle and pass it three or four times, may not be necessary. One needs to know the main districts of the city, the main routes and the main places, hotels, pubs and hospitals. It is a fairly comprehensive list. If one actually knows the things one needs to pass the public service vehicle test, one is qualified to start driving taxis. Obviously, one is learning every day. Anyone who has that basic knowledge will pick it up pretty quickly.

That is not the problem. The problem is that there are so many drivers out there who do not have that most basic knowledge to any level. Why is this happening? As I suggested, it could be for a number of reasons. Some people may be driving illegally on other people's ID or in their cars - legal cosies, as they are known. Some people may be accessing all the public service vehicle test papers. I understand that there are only seven or eight of them so it would not be beyond imagination for someone to get hold of those and perhaps sell them with all the answers. A person then answers them by rote but still has no knowledge of the city. That is one possibility. A person could take the test for another person in his or her name. I have no idea how this is being done but it is clear from the overwhelming weight of evidence that the system is being abused and cheated.

The sense of injustice that taxi drivers feel about this is almost the lesser element of the problem. More important is the fact that the taxi industry is falling into disrepute and is not providing the service for its customers that it should. We are all suffering in terms of status and image, quite apart from money. We do not want to be looked down upon when we go out to do our daily work. It is very common for people to tell stories about inadequate knowledge and bad and inappropriate behaviour. It is perfectly evident that there is something very rotten going on and it needs to be investigated with vigour and moral courage by people who know what they are doing.

There is a sensitive issue connected to this which concerns me greatly. As a child in Kilburn in London, I saw those notices in windows which said "No dogs, no Irish, no blacks". In Australia, I used to cringe at the anti-Aboriginal sentiments of right-wing radio pundits and politicians. It sickened me. I do not want to see that happen here. Immigration to this country is a new experience and what we must avoid at all costs is making the same mistakes that have been made in other countries where things have not been handled well. Small issues such as this are thorns in the social flesh which suppurate and around which racism grows.

We will bring in the regulator.

Mr. James Connolly

Can I ask a question?

Mr. James Connolly

I am in a very good position to elaborate on the question of enforcement. In my time in the Garda Síochána - I will not tell any tales out of school - the enforcement of taxi and hackney licences was, by and large, left to the public service vehicle inspector within the divisions outside Dublin and the Carriage Office in Dublin. It was an unwritten code that the Garda did not really get involved because the numbers were manageable and the other offices were able to enforce the regulations and had control because of the numbering system.

Since the inception of the regulator's office, by and large, the Garda says this is a job for the regulator. I know this is the truth. Due to the fact that there are only nine enforcement officers for the entire country, as I said in my submission, there is no need to elaborate on enforcement. Enforcement is virtually nil and when it operates, it is despised by the industry because it is hit and run and unfair, is not systematic and has failed utterly.

Mr. Richard Ryan

The emphasis of it is frequently wrong.

Mr. James Connolly

Exactly.

I thank the representatives for their contribution. They are welcome to join the public gallery and listen to the response of the taxi regulator.

Mr. James Connolly

I thank the Chairman.

The next item on the agenda is a discussion with the Commission for Taxi Regulation. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the taxi regulator, Ms Kathleen Doyle, and Ms Jennifer Gilna, head of the commission's corporate affairs division. I propose that we hear a short presentation by Ms Doyle. As we have had the benefit of her presentations to the Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs on 4 March as well as to this committee, I ask that she concentrate on the issues raised at this meeting. We appreciate her good work in establishing a good taxi service.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for this opportunity to appear before them. My presentation has been distributed to members and includes a copy of the current 2008-09 action plan, Always Driving Forward, the vehicle standards publication issued last November in respect of new standards in the industry and the latest public consultation document on fares, namely, the review of taxi fares for the small public service vehicle, SPSV, industry.

I will take the committee through my presentation to outline the powers provided by the Taxi Regulation Act 2003. The commission was established in September 2004 as an independent public body. As the committee is aware, our principal function is the development and maintenance of a regulatory framework for the control and operation of SPSVs, their drivers and dispatch operators. As a union representative noted our mission statement, I will not repeat it.

The commission's objectives are set out in section 9 of the Act. The work of the commission is to ensure those objectives which are set out in the presentation are achieved. To achieve them, we have undertaken extensive research of the SPSV industry commencing in 2005 with a national review of vehicle standards and services, in respect of which we received 132 submissions. This was followed in June 2005 by public consultation on proposals for change in the SPSV industry, in respect of which we received 199 submissions. In October 2005 we engaged in an extensive public consultation process on the national taxi meter areas and taxi fares, during which we received 85 submissions. In December 2006 we engaged in public consultation on vehicle standards, in respect of which we received 191 submissions. In June 2007 we consulted the industry on the transferability of taxi licences, an issue which has been referred to. In April this year we engaged in public consultation on the national maximum fare.

As a number of issues have been discussed, I will outline our proposals in respect of planned research for the rest of the year. Some of the problems referred to at this meeting and raised with me by representative bodies were brought to light this year, including licence numbers, taxi ranks, etc. I have decided to carry out an economic review of the services provided by SPSVs. It will evaluate the impact of liberalisation on the SPSV market, the trend in new entrants to the industry, the level of demand for SPSV services nationally and trends in such services provided in other European countries in order that we can benchmark against them. I am in the middle of preparing a tender to carry out this economic review, the results of which I hope will be available by the end of this year.

This year I will also undertake a national review of all current taxi ranks. The considerable shortage of taxi ranks is clear, as outlined by representative bodies. Members of our staff have carried out an audit of taxi ranks. Travelling around the country, they established which taxi ranks were available to licenceholders. However, there is a significant need for taxi ranks in all other areas, particularly given the integration of SPSVs with the overall public transport system. To achieve this, we must determine where taxi ranks are required on streets and in public areas where people gather and move from one mode of public transport to another. In this context, we are examining taxi ranks at all transport terminals, hospitals, shopping centres, hotels and all other relevant areas. I acknowledge the high level of service provided by taxi, hackney and limousine drivers. They provide the only mode of public transport that offers a service 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Careful consideration is given to all submissions received after our consultation processes. We meet stakeholders on a regular basis nationally and seek advice from the advisory council to the commission, a body set up under Part 4 of the 2003 Act which represents many taxi users and stakeholders such as local authorities, the Garda, consumers, people with disabilities, the business and tourism sectors, the Competition Authority and the Road Safety Authority. This advice which is taken on board is sought following every consultation process.

I will give the committee a quick briefing before going into the details of the matters raised by drivers. Since 2006 and 2007 we have introduced a streamlined national vehicle licensing system, following our taking over of licensing functions from local authorities. There is a new national vehicle licence register because, under section 38 of the Act, we were required to establish a register of vehicle and driver licences. We have declared a national taxi meter area and a new consistent taxi fare was introduced in September 2006. We have taken over from the Garda Síochána the handling of complaints and there is a new national complaints process. We have enhanced consumer protection and improved information and awareness. Our new national consumer and industry telephone lines are extremely busy. For example, the two lines received 84,000 calls in 2007, 72,000 of which were from the industry, while approximately 10,000 were from consumers. We have provided for stronger enforcement through the commencement of our enforcement team in early 2007. We have also published new vehicle standards.

A number of new reforms for 2008 and 2009 are outlined in the action plan before the committee. We plan to implement the new vehicle standards, to engage in further public consultation on the national maximum taxi fare - we made a commitment to the industry to revise this every two years - and to introduce a new skills development programme to replace the test for SPSV drivers debated by the committee. We will roll out that programme once we take over the administration of the driver licensing system from the Garda. We will also be licensing--

When will that be?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There is no date set yet. We are in touch with the Garda Síochána at senior level with a view towards taking over the administration of the driver licensing system, but responsibility for the vetting of applicants will remain with the Garda. We had hoped to take over the administration of the driver licensing system in the last quarter of 2008, but this is subject to the receipt of additional resources from the Department of Transport. Our staffing submission has been sanctioned by that Department, but not by the Department of Finance as yet. It is subject to the Government's efficiency review of the public sector. Until such time as we receive those resources, we will not be in a position to take over the administration of the driver licensing system.

We hope to improve services for people with disabilities, as they can experience serious difficulties in accessing services. When we conduct our taxi rank audit, we will develop best practice guidelines for taxi ranks nationally, incorporating accessibility. We also hope to develop a quality assurance scheme throughout the lifetime of the action plan.

For the purposes of this meeting I have included the current vehicle licence figures to give an indication to members of the increase in numbers. The market was liberalised in 2000. Local authorities were the licensing authorities since 1995 and the commission took over from September 2006. The figures give an indication of the quarterly increase in vehicle licence numbers since the commission took over. I cannot stand over the numbers prior to that date because licensing was the responsibility of local authorities. When we took over in 2006, there were 19,561 small public service vehicle licences, including taxis, wheelchair accessible taxis, hackneys and limousines.

What is that number again?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

That was the number when we took over in September 2006.

Is that the number from the local authorities?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Yes. The number at the end of March was 26,324. I can provide a breakdown of the figures for various categories and particular counties.

Designating taxi ranks is the function of local authorities. We are carrying out an audit, following which we will engage consultants to consider the requirement for taxi ranks in local authority areas and in private areas such as transport terminals, hospitals and shopping centres in order that we can consider the integration of taxi ranks with the public transport system. We will provide the new Dublin Transport Authority with the result of the consultants' report which we hope to have later this year. We are preparing a tender document but needed to finish the audit of taxi ranks by our staff first. That is now finished and we are in a position to engage consultants to examine the requirement for taxi ranks throughout the country.

Regarding funding for taxi ranks, Mr. Connolly referred to section 11 of the Taxi Regulation Act which provides that surplus funding from the taxi regulator can be offered to local authorities under a grants scheme. As the taxi regulator took over responsibility for licensing from local authorities in September 2006, fees have only been coming to the commission for a short period. They were with local authorities for a considerable number of years and a huge amount of money was accumulated by them. Local authorities can allocate funds for discretionary improvements or have block grants allocated to them for eligible works, including taxi ranks. They can use their resources to provide funds for taxi ranks.

We have introduced new vehicles standards that will apply from January 2009 for all new entrants to the small public service vehicle industy. They emphasise the vehicle standards published in 2007 and will apply to new entrants in standard taxis and hackneys from 1 January 2009. There are also new vehicle standards for fully accessible vehicles that we wish to introduce in mid-2008. One of the major issues is that those who wish to travel in wheelchairs are having a difficult time accessing services. We wish to introduce the new category of wheelchair accessible hackney and a new specification for wheelchair accessible taxis. However, this is totally reliant on receiving a subsidy from the Minister for Transport, to whom we have applied for a subsidy for the purchase of vehicles because they will be very expensive.

The safety standards for motor cars and bikes will extend to all vehicles, including wheelchair accessible vehicles, from April. At present, goods vehicles can be converted into wheelchair accessible vehicles but that will no longer be the case when the EU directive comes into effect in April 2009. We have incorporated this provision into the new vehicle standards but this brings major costs for vehicles costing €30,000-40,000 when converted from vans to wheelchair accessible vehicles. According to the new standards, the cost will be €55,000 to €70,000.

The other new requirement concerns the skills development programme under development for entrants to the industry which will be rolled out when we take over the administration of the driver licensing system from the Garda Síochána. It will include relevant legislation, route selection, area knowledge, customer care, training, fares and charges, health and safety, safety and security, manual handling, equality and diversity, disability awareness, good business practice and innovation. These are the measures we will roll out in respect of new drivers first and then to all drivers from 1 January 2012 on the renewal of their licences. This will bring consistency to testing, an issue which was debated earlier.

Are there too many taxis in operation in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Cork?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Certainly, there has been a significant increase in the number of taxis and a significant increase in the issuing of licences since we took over responsibility for licensing. I took on board what the taxi representatives had said but no one has mentioned the dispatch companies and the great number of people who book taxis on a regular basis through such companies, or radio companies. We will licence dispatch operators later this year. Ms Gilna and I travelled the country, from January to March, to meet the various taxi companies which we call dispatch operators. We met a huge number of them for information sessions on the requirements for licensing. The feedback is that they cannot meet the demand for bookings, not just during peak hours but during off-peak hours. Taxi drivers are self-employed and some take the opportunity to operate on the street, cruise the streets or sit at the ranks. However, there is a great amount of business in corporate work or public sector contracts through dispatch operators who are continuously looking for drivers to affiliate with them, take radios and bookings, the demand for which cannot be met. I have visited dispatch operators, sat in their offices and watched while they tried to co-ordinate with colleagues in other dispatch operator firms to deliver the service. Customers telephone the dispatch operators who must give the honest answer that a taxi cannot be promised within 20 minutes or half an hour. The dispatch operators ring a firm affiliated--

Therefore, the commissioner is saying there are not enough taxis operating.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

What I am saying is that there is an adequate supply of taxis in some areas but they are not promoting themselves and availing of the business opportunities available to them during non-peak hours. There are taxis sitting at ranks while taxi companies are receiving bookings and cannot deliver a service.

I will let the commissioner answer the points made earlier but there was an immediate response from the attendance in the Visitors Gallery which is almost entirely made up of taxi drivers. They are not allowed to contribute but there was an immediate response. I find it unbelievable that Ms Doyle can suggest there is a major amount of business through dispatch agencies, while taxi drivers from three cities tell us of the chaos, difficulties and long hours they must work in order to make a living.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Last week, the Taxi Company Owners Association, which has a representative on the advisory council to the commission, wrote to me and pointed out it was aware we would appear before the committee. One of the observations made was that it considers enough taxis operate in Dublin but no matter how many taxis are operating, from time to time for various reasons taxi companies still experience difficulties in providing a service, and this will always be the case. This is the view of the dispatch operators.

Will the regulator give the committee the name of these dispatch companies looking for business and we will invite them to appear before the committee.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I can certainly do so.

It would be interesting to hear where this business exists. This is the first I have heard about it.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The Taxi Company Owners Association is representative of a number of taxi companies in Dublin. I will provide the committee with another example. Dispatch companies have a great deal of advertising seeking drivers to affiliate to them and join them as drivers. Some of them also employ drivers.

Will Ms Doyle provide us with the names of the companies? We will bring them before the committee. I will allow Ms Doyle to proceed and respond to the issues raised.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

One example is in the latest edition of the National Taxi Drivers Union's Taxi Times which arrived on my desk this week. It contains a large advertisement seeking taxi drivers and offering account work, a selection of cash work, city-wide hotels and early morning specialists. This organisation franchises dispatch operators throughout the country.

We will return to this issue.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Ms Jennifer Gilna and I have spoken individually to dispatch operators throughout the country. They operate free radio rentals to bring people in to meet the bookings. This is the feedback we hear.

(Interruptions).

I call for order. We cannot have misbehaviour and people will be asked to leave if we have such misbehaviour.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

People with disabilities have great difficulties in accessing services. We have quite a large amount of wheelchair accessible vehicles. Some of them are affiliated to taxi companies. However, people making bookings to travel in their wheelchairs have difficulties because even though an excellent service is delivered to people with disabilities from affiliated taxis, others with wheelchair accessible licences do not deliver a service to people with disabilities. I will put regulations in place this year whereby all wheelchair accessible licence holders must register their contact details with the commission to ensure priority is given to people with disabilities and they receive a proper level of service the same as able-bodied people. It is a major problem.

We will allow the commissioner to respond to the points made by the taxi drivers.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The issue of income was also raised by the taxi drivers. Some taxi drivers claim they are working longer hours to bring in an income. I would argue that they need good business planning. Most taxi drivers are self-employed people who make a self-informed decision to enter the industry. They need to make a self-informed decision to find where is the business in the areas in which they operate. Many drivers do not take or maximise the business opportunities available to them. I encourage them to contact the dispatch operators in their areas. Some of the taxi drivers I have met throughout the country mentioned they did not get enough work from any particular dispatch operator to which they have affiliated. The answer is to try another one because plenty of them exist and they have business available.

Will the commissioner provide their names? It is extremely important that Ms Doyle provides these to the committee.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

More than 800 dispatch operators have registered. The final date of registration with the commission for the purpose of licensing was 4 April. We have met many dispatch operators and I very much appreciated the feedback from them. Consider all of the public sector contracts. People go to dispatch operators. The work is tendered for and the dispatch operators respond because they will provide a service over a 24-hour period. The corporate sector constantly phones them during the day also.

People going to the airport in the morning want to be collected from where they live. They will not go to a local taxi rank at 6 a.m. They will call a taxi company and be collected from their doors. Elderly people in rural areas and people with disabilities expect a door to door service. I appreciate some of them will have a local taxi driver who takes them from A to B and offers an excellent service. Others prefer to phone a local firm and hope the service will turn up. There are business opportunities and I have seen it myself when I have visited dispatch operators, as has Ms Gilna.

I appreciate the existence of increasing fuel costs and we are all experiencing them. Part of the new national maximum taxi fare revision will take into account all of the operating and running costs of taxi drivers, hackney drivers and limousine drivers who are all experiencing increased fuel costs. This will be part of the public consultation process after which we will take consultant advice as to what is the appropriate fare and whether changes should be made.

We conducted research into how consumers feel about the service provided throughout the country. The feedback has been excellent with regard to driver behaviour. A few complaints were made about vehicle condition but in general consumers are extremely happy with the service provided. They feel adequate taxis are available, except at peak times. As was stated previously, there are never enough taxis available late in the evening. People try to book taxis during this time and dispatch operators cannot deliver a service. They cannot produce drivers to deliver the bookings. It is a difficult situation from both points of view. During certain hours taxi drivers will not get business by cruising around the city because it is a quiet time. This is when they should be available to taxi companies who have corporate work.

A forum of taxi drivers was mentioned. I remind the committee that four representative bodies of the taxi unions and the limousine unions are on the advisory council. The Taxi Company Owners Association is also represented on the advisory council, which comprises a chairman and 17 members. It advises the commission on a range of issues pertaining to small public service vehicles as well as advising the Minister. I regularly consult with the advisory council and report on progress to the commission. When we begin a public consultation process we consult the advisory council and we continue to do so on a number of occasions as the process develops.

As an example, the closing date for submissions on the maximum taxi fare revision is 13 June. We will then assess the submissions, striking a balance between consumers and the industry. We seek the formal advice of the advisory council. We will obtain consultant advice on what will be the running and operating costs and on what is a fair fare for the consumer. We must encourage consumers to continue using small public service vehicles.

We consider the fare and the tariffs and examine whether an increase is required to meet running costs and provide a fair income to drivers throughout the country. We will indicate to the advisory council what we believe the new fare should be or that the fare should remain the same and seek its final advice. The consultation process prior to reaching a final decision is lengthy and onerous. Fuel costs will be taken into account, as they were on the most recent occasion in September 2006. We have undertaken that this fare revision will take place every two years irrespective of the circumstances in the marketplace.

It is not within my remit to put a cap on the number of licences issued. As the committee is aware, the High Court judgment in October 2000 which led to taxi liberalisation created the legal position--

We will leave that issue for now and return to it.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I want to outline that my remit under the taxi regulation--

We appreciate that.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

- -does not give me that power.

However, as I stated, I will introduce new vehicle standards and roll out a new driver skills development programme which will, in itself, contribute to enhancing the overall standards an SPSV operator or driver must reach prior to obtaining a licence. Other issues raised by the representative bodies were route selection, area knowledge and the SPSV driver test.

Currently, the SPSV driver licensing system is administered by the Garda Síochána. It is administered in Dublin by the carriage office and by the PSV inspectors in Garda regions throughout the country. The test itself and vetting procedure is carried out by the Garda Síochána. One of the criteria of the test is that the person must satisfy the Garda Commissioner that he or she is a fit and proper person to become a taxi, hackney or limousine driver or, as it is called, a small public service vehicle driver. No licence will be granted if the Garda Síochána is not happy when the vetting process takes place. The Garda Síochána has refused to grant a licence on a number of occasions following vetting of particular individuals.

Concern has been raised that there is a degree of inconsistency in the driver test. We have spoken to PSV inspectors from all over the country and there are differences between the tests carried out in smaller towns and in the larger cities. There is a written element to the test in Dublin, which is also used in some other cities. Route selection and area knowledge, as well as an understanding of road traffic legislation is also required at the moment.

The roll out of the driver skills training programme, which we are currently developing, will ultimately replace the test that is currently carried out by the Garda Síochána. We will be rolling out a consistent test right across the country and the only thing that will change from county to county will be the route selection and area knowledge element of the test.

My understanding, although I do not speak here for the Garda Síochána, is that the pass mark for the current test is 70%. A number of people do not reach the 70% mark and must undergo the test a number of times before being granted a licence. One must meet the 70% pass mark in the test and satisfy the Garda Síochána that one is a fit and proper person to drive a small public service vehicle. As I have already mentioned, route selection, area knowledge and road traffic legislation are also a elements of the test.

With regard to the issue of non-national drivers and inadequate route selection or area knowledge, we took over responsibility for dealing with complaints in September 2006 and have had less than a handful of complaints on that matter since then. Complaints about route selection or area knowledge have been made against both Irish and non-national drivers. In general, though, most complaints are not about that issue but about overcharging and bad driver behaviour. Such complaints are not attributable to non-nationals - quite the opposite, in fact.

I can furnish committee members with more detailed statistics on complaints, if they wish. We received a total of 763 complaints in 2007. In the main, complaints fall into the following categories: condition and cleanliness of cars; behaviour of drivers; overcharging; and other matters related to hiring. Generally, complaints in the last category refer to the booking service - quite simply, people book a service and it does not turn up.

Taxi ranks were referred to by the representative bodies earlier. Taxi ranks are the responsibility of the local authorities but having said that, we will undertake a major consultative review of the taxi rank requirements in the country. It is not simply about the local authority areas, taxi ranks and taxis queuing but about the integration of small public service vehicles into the overall public transport system. One of the key objectives of the Taxi Regulation Act is that the regulator ensures that happens. Part of the process involves undertaking a national taxi rank audit and determine what is required. We have declared the whole country to be a national taxi meter area so there are now taxis operating in areas where they were never available before. Therefore, there is a requirement for additional taxi ranks in the areas in which taxis currently operate in cities as well as in areas where they did not exist before.

The aim is to integrate the ranks into the whole public transport system so that if a person alights from one mode of public transport and has a further, short distance to travel by taxi, there will be a taxi rank at the point of disembarkation. We will also be examining areas such as shopping centres, hospitals and transport terminals in the context of the taxi rank audit. We will present the report to the Dublin transportation authority, for the greater Dublin area, and to the local authorities throughout the country. At that stage, we will need to engage with the local authorities to determine what they will produce, on foot of the report.

I have spoken to local authorities on behalf of the public transport representative bodies. In essence, however, we are all waiting for the report to be published so that we can decide what we need to do nationally. We hope to have the report finalised by the end of the year.

Mention was made of a lack of enforcement. Under the Taxi Regulation Act, members of the Garda Síochána are authorised officers. We only have nine enforcement officers, which was the allocation given to the commission by the Departments of Transport and Finance. We have pointed out in our staffing submission that if we take over the licensing function from the Garda Síochána we will need additional enforcement officers. We have requested additional officers. However, while the Government's efficiency review is being carried out, no extra resources are being provided to us or any other State agency. At present, we will not be getting any additional staff and that is making it difficult for the commission to deliver its statutory objectives under the Act and to deliver effective enforcement operations across the country.

Our enforcement team comprises nine enforcement officers and a head of enforcement. They currently respond to the complaints, which we have taken over from the Garda Síochána. They must investigate complaints, take witness statements and assess whether there should be a prosecution, a formal warning or no further action. We only commenced prosecutions in the latter part of 2007 in order to give the industry time to get used to the new regulations. We made a decision not to be too hard on people early in the year. However, we introduced on the spot fines at the beginning of the year and commenced prosecutions later in 2007. There were 22 prosecutions last year, a small number earlier this year and there are approximately 85 due before this summer. Prosecutions are ongoing--

Are they for unqualified drivers or for illegal activities?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The majority of prosecutions are for overcharging, unlicensed drivers and unlicensed vehicles.

I wish to point out to the committee that the commission has placed in every licensed vehicle an identification card, which is displayed on the dashboard. The card has been rolled out to all licence holders in the country. It contains a photograph of the driver, the licence number, the name of the driver and the licence expiry date. Previously, there was very little consistency across the various areas of the country regarding identification requirements. Each driver must display this card and we have embarked on an intensive awareness campaign to make sure that customers are aware that the card must be displayed at all times. Drivers also carry a smart card, which can be used by our enforcement team, who have hand-held computers which they use while carrying out their enforcement duties. We are investigating the possibility of rolling out that system to the authorised officers of the Garda Síochána as well. While it is not happening at the moment, we hope it will be in operation in the future.

In order for the consumer to be sure that the vehicle is licensed, we have also issued tamper-proof discs to be displayed on the windscreen and rear window of vehicles. It is quite a large disc and ensures that customers who are travelling in the vehicle are aware that it is licensed. We will be rolling out different coloured discs for hackneys and limousines this year. Despite all of this, there are still some unlicensed drivers in the sector. However, they are very easily identifiable because of the new licensing requirement regarding the display of information in vehicles.

There are only nine enforcement officers, who respond to complaints as well as carrying out ongoing enforcement operations around the country on a 24-hour rota basis, which includes Friday and Saturday nights. The officers would not be seen very often in many places because there are not very many of them. However, when conducting operations in a particular town, village or city, they liaise with the Garda Síochána PSV inspector in that area and let him or her know they are coming. Then they carry out their enforcement activities. They have come across a small number of unlicensed drivers and vehicles. The new identification requirements mean that it is very clear to the officers whether a vehicle or driver is licensed.

I think I have addressed most of the issues that were raised.

We can return to outstanding issues later, if necessary. While I acknowledge that a lot of good work has been done, I put it to Ms Doyle that the positive picture she painted is completely at variance with the chaos we have been told exists on the ground. I am sure she is aware of the significant unhappiness that exists among taxi drivers in regard to the arrangements for efficiently operating their businesses, the difficulties they experience in earning a reasonable week's pay for a reasonable week's work, levels of illegal activity and the numbers of apparently unqualified operators, yet she paints a picture of everything being rosy in the garden.

Many of the proposals she presented to us are aspirational. It is hardly necessary to carry out audits on taxi ranks because we all know there is a serious shortage. Today we were made aware of the chaos that exists in all cities because of the number of taxis which are trying to access a limited number of ranks. Action rather than audits are required if the issue is to be addressed. Ms Doyle will correctly argue that ranks are the responsibility of local authorities but the chaotic situation remains and must be addressed now.

A significant problem appears to have arisen in respect of PSV licences. Ms Doyle stated that she intends to take over the administration of the driving licensing system from the Garda but she is unable to provide a date. The staffing problems she described are clear. Nine people are insufficient to enforce taxi regulations throughout the country. This is my first time to criticise the Department of Transport but there is no reason why one person cannot be employed on a permanent basis in each of the five cities in addition to the nine staff in Dublin in order to police the activities of taxis.

The representative from Galway gave an example of a taxi driver who dropped off a fare outside Jury's hotel only to receive an on-the-spot €250 fine for picking up passengers directly afterwards. That is an unfair application of the law.

As Deputies, we have heard anecdotal evidence that a substantial number of people involved in the taxi business are acting illegally or improperly licensed. However, Ms Doyle appears satisfied that the problem is very small.

The representative from Dublin noted that the character of the industry is changing and that the PSV licensing system is being abused. Taxi drivers are encountering significant difficulties, with 158 tickets given out in Galway last Saturday night alone because of illegally parked taxis. There is chaos in the taxi industry at present and these issues need to be urgently addressed. Ms Doyle should listen to the taxi drivers because they must know best.

Whenever I sit in a taxi in Galway, Dublin, Cork or elsewhere, the first comment I hear if the driver is full time is that he or she finds it difficult to make a living. Is there evidence that people must work beyond the working time directive in order to make an adequate living, that significant numbers are holding down full-time jobs while driving taxis part-time during peak periods or that some people have amassed a number of licences which they lease out? We have been given evidence on those matters and the picture we see is the opposite of the one painted by Ms Doyle today. That concerns me.

Has the regulator taken up an invitation from the taxi drivers to accompany them over an evening in order to witness at first hand how hard it is to make a living?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I am very supportive of the taxi industry. I am aware of the problems raised by the representative bodies and I meet them on a regular basis. While the Chairman might claim that I paint a good picture, it is based on the feedback I receive from consumers and taxi companies. However, in regard to working hours and PSV licences, there are currently more than 41,500 licences and while not all are operating taxis, some regularly renew their licences. In regard to claims of a significant number of unlicensed drivers, each and every licence holder has been issued with the new driver identity card and smart card.

The Garda driver licence register has not been transferred to us, although we have been given the information we need to establish our own register. Until such time as we take the information completely from the Garda, it will continue to supply us with up-to-date information. We are totally reliant on the information we receive from the Garda, which is at present the driver licensing authority. The criteria for issuing a licence by the Garda do not include working hours other than to require licensees to sign a declaration that they will work no more than 11 hours per day for three consecutive days. A regulation covers that set of working hours. From the point of view of the working time directive, the Garda is not required to establish whether a driver is full or part time. It is left to the taxi drivers themselves, some of whom are employed, to chose their hours.

When we take over administration of driver licensing, we will consult at a high level with the Garda and the advisory council to the Commission for Taxi Regulation. We will also examine our own regulations to determine the criteria we should put in place for the future.

Surely, that should be done now. If a working time regulation allows a taxi driver to work a maximum of 11 hours, a person who already worked eight hours elsewhere could then drive for 11 hours in a taxi.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Absolutely.

That should be addressed now.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The working time directive is only applicable to people who are in full-time employment. Those criteria are not currently in place.

A considerable number of people who work in other jobs drive taxis part time at peak periods, thereby taking opportunities from full-time taxi drivers by taking spots on ranks. In any city on a Saturday night, one can see 100 taxis in a line. That issue should be addressed in the first instance by the Commission and the Garda.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We cannot address it until we become the licensing authority. It can be addressed when we take over that function but we will need adequate resources to do so. We will review all driver licensing criteria.

With due respect, now is the time to address this issue with the Garda. If the Commission is waiting for studies and staff, which it will need in large numbers, we will be a long time waiting before we see action. At present there is chaos on the ground. It is my view, and that of the committee, that this must be addressed now.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

While I appreciate what the Chairman is saying, the Garda is restricted to working within existing road traffic legislation. Until we can roll out our own regulations and take over that function from the Garda Síochána, those regulations will not change. They work within the criteria to which they must adhere under the 1961 and 1963 Acts.

I asked whether Ms Doyle has gone out to look at the conditions.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I have travelled around the country during day and night times, not in the company of taxi drivers but as a team from the office. Our enforcement and technical advisers to the commission have been invited out on a number of occasions to look at areas. Our enforcement team, which operates a 24-hour, 365-day rota for enforcement operations, constantly reports back and makes it clear to us what is happening at the ranks at various times both day and night, particularly at weekends.

Would there be merit in accompanying a driver for a particular number of hours to see exactly what conditions are like?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There could be merit in that and some of our enforcement officers have already undertaken it.

I am very impressed with the evidence of both sides today. They have both spoken honestly from their perspectives. I want to try to be constructive. The taxi drivers are there to supply the service but, in their view, they are not getting the demand for that service. Ms Doyle says if there is a business association and plan they can link up with the dispatch companies, one would equal the other and there should be no lack of business for any taxi driver if the business opportunities are taken on board. I understand Ms Doyle's point that many taxi drivers are sole operators. Is there a role for a proactive relationship between the Commission for Taxi Regulation and the business community that would provide knowledge in an information pack or arrange meetings in the major towns around the country? These could tell people what is happening, identify the 800 companies, specifically the ones in each county or city. The Commissioner for Taxi Regulation could act as a facilitator or educator. I do not want to use pejorative terms. That is the resolution of the problem. The consumer is best served by the taxi driver being busy. If a taxi driver cannot get a fare at a rank, he or she is best served by linking into this system.

I acknowledge Ms Doyle's commitment in her research and consultation where she talks about addressing many of these issues with the economic review of the services and the impact of liberalisation. This is where we need to consult with the users of the service, the public. Could Ms Doyle tell us how she intends to do that? That is the key to the issue. Young people, particularly late at night, need safe, secure, good taxi people and we want that to continue. Everybody does. The key point is that if one restricts the number of taxis, there may be fewer taxis available at those times and those people will have a tougher time with whatever happens late at night; we all know what goes on.

I thank Ms Doyle for her informative presentation. I would like to express similar views about that. In any working environment one of the key elements to providing a good service, particularly dealing with the public, is a happy work force where people feel secure in their jobs and work in harmony in a good environment. This morning I got a taxi driven by a very nice man named Mr. Anthony Macken. I asked him how business was and he told me his life story. He was brought up in Sheriff Street and has been in the taxi business for 20 years. He did very well up to a few years ago and moved out to the northside of Dublin, bought a nice house and has a family going to school. I have already spoken about this. He worked a full day and got €150 for the day. That does not take into account overheads. Ms Doyle has explained to us that there is much extra business that is not being taken up due to inefficiency with the dispatch operators. Does she consider that is an adequate income for a person in any job, particularly in that type of business, to earn for a full day? Is there any way I could advise that person, or anybody like him, how to pick up this extra business?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Deputy O'Dowd mentioned the business opportunities in assisting taxi drivers and talking to them about the dispatch operators that have the business available. As I mentioned earlier, Ms Gilna and I have just travelled around the country to information sessions for dispatch operators which we will be licensing later this year. Once dispatch operators are licensed we propose to have details of these businesses available on their websites and then have further information sessions with them as to exactly what business is available. Thus we can assist taxi drives to avail of that business and encourage people to affiliate to the dispatch operators and see where the business is available. There are non-peak times when there may be business available with the dispatch operators and we will assist the representative bodies of the taxi drivers and dispatch operators to maximise all the business opportunities available to them.

With regard to the impact of liberalisation, the study we will conduct will consult with user groups. I mentioned earlier that we did research with users and today we received a report which gave very good feedback from consumers in general. We would seek the consumer's view of the impact of liberalisation. Our report, which we received this morning, indicates that one can get a taxi and they are available, but not at peak times from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. Consultation with consumers on how that can be best developed will be part of the review.

Senator Brady mentioned the amount of €150 for a day's work and asked whether that is adequate and how taxi drivers could secure extra work on particular days. To me, €150 would not appear adequate for the day's work Senator Brady mentioned. Having said that, part of the Taxi Regulation Act and the powers we have is to set the maximum fare for taxis across the country. In setting the maximum fare we must take into account running costs, operational costs and a fair deal for the taxi driver to bring in an income and strike the balance with consumer use.

If there is a big increase in fares there will be a drop in the consumer use of taxis. One item of feedback from our recent consumer research indicates that consumers consider that the taxi fares introduced in 2006 were quite high. One must strike a balance to ensure we encourage consumer use against the need to ensure operational and running costs and a good living for taxi drivers. We will do that in the current national fare review.

If all this work of which Ms Doyle spoke is available, why cannot the person in the situation I mentioned avail of it?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Opportunities are available. I do not know what the personal circumstances of that gentleman were, whether he was being hailed on the street or was picking up. He should contact the dispatch operators in his area and get feedback from them to see what is available in the area in addition to being hailed or standing on the rank. Some of the feedback we receive from the dispatch operators is that people are self-employed, like to choose the hours they work and not all of them want to do the taxi company work too; that is their personal choice as self-employed people.

I welcome Ms Doyle and Ms Gilna and the work they do. I would like to ask a few questions. Some of the earlier comments from taxi drivers related to working hours and it was suggested that many taxi drivers work a full week in their main employment and drive a taxi on a part-time basis. Will Ms Doyle explain the application of the working time directive as she sees it for taxi drivers currently and how it applies to those working in a conventional sense on a full-time basis and those working in a full-time job and doing part-time hours as taxi drivers?

There are currently more than 26,000 SPSV licences and more than 40,000 related driving licences. Do we have any breakdown of these numbers? How many of those licensed vehicles are operating on a full-time basis commercially and part time? Similarly, with the more than 40,000 SPSV driving licences out there, how many holders are actively engaged in the business? How many hours, on average, do they work per week, and what is the full-time and part-time profile?

I welcome the review on the provision of ranks. I know an audit has been done by the Commissioner for Taxi Regulation and consultants are being brought in for a more detailed study. What level of detail will be involved and will it go down to the level of every major town, above a certain size, throughout the country?

There are nine enforcement officers, which the witness would concede as inadequate. Will the delegation give an idea of how their time is used currently? Do they deal with the complaints system being administered by the commission or do they have enough time to go out to do random checks on the road?

The identification card was mentioned and we saw an example, which is very welcome. That will highlight whether a driver has the required licence. Is there a similarly easy way to identify whether a vehicle is licensed?

The economic review is to be welcomed. Will it identify the optimum number of taxis required throughout the country and will it give some indication, considering the size of our country and the demographics involved, of the number of taxis that would allow drivers to earn a reasonable living?

Issues were raised concerning non-national drivers. It has been indicated these are not borne out by the number of complaints received, and it is welcome the issue is not as serious as has been implied. Will the witness reaffirm that?

Figures were indicated in the presentation on the number of licences which were issued by the commission since it took over responsibility for the area. At the point of liberalisation in 2000, how many vehicle SPSV licences were there? The figure is now 26,324, as of March 2008, and I know the commissioner can only stand over the data for the period of time her office has had responsibility for the matter. The witness may give an idea of the number of licensed vehicles in 2000 nonetheless.

I apologise for missing the presentation as I was speaking in the Chamber. I hope I do not ask questions which were already answered.

Will the witness comment on the fact that London, with a population probably seven or eight times that of Dublin, has fewer taxis? I understand from the conversation there are approximately 26,000 vehicle licences out there. How does the numbering system work as the numbers go up to 41,000? What makes up the gap?

With regard to dormant licences, are checks made or is the issue of interest at all? There seem to be a number of dormant licences out there and if this is so, should they be revoked and offered to others? Are the 26,000 vehicle licences broken down by county? This comes back to the question of what is required in Dublin, as well as what is required in Cork, Galway, Limerick and so on.

Taxi operators this afternoon referred to parking ranks. Has the Commission for Taxi Regulation a consultation process with local authorities in terms of determining locations and the number of required parking spaces? Will the witnesses explain how they deal with complaints and what sanctions exist? If a driver is guilty of some form of misconduct or inappropriate behaviour, how is the issue dealt with? Is there a sanction or revoking process for licences?

I understand there is no vetting done of purchasers of a taxi plate, although there is for the driving licence itself. Is this not an inconsistency, as surely somebody purchasing a taxi plate should be vetted in the same way as a driver?

The witness mentioned a figure of 11 hours for a working period in certain cases. Given that there are tachographs to determine the number of hours a driver has worked with HGVs, is there not a method by which a taxi vehicle should have some form of electronic device, which would record times drivers' work, how long they have worked and so on? They may also record where the business is generated by logging a start and finish point.

I wish to comment briefly. Almost everything I wanted to ask has been asked already. I welcome both the witnesses and thank them for their very informative presentation.

There is an awful lack of cohesion in the business currently. This morning at Heuston Station there was a traffic jam of taxi drivers. I had to use a taxi to visit somebody in hospital at lunchtime because of time constraints here and I stood outside Leinster House to get one. When I left Tallaght Hospital, under enormous pressure to get back here, I had to wait ten minutes as there was no taxi in the rank there.

The point made about dispatch operators was a good idea, as somebody should communicate to taxis where they are required and where there is already adequate provision. Do the dispatch operators take a percentage of what taxi drivers make in fares?

A question regarding local authorities and ranks has already been asked by a Deputy. I welcome the change in the issuing of the SPSV licences but this is still a very urgent matter.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Deputy Michael McGrath mentioned working hours and the working time directive and asked if there was statistical information for vehicle and driving licences. There are no statistics currently available to the commission from the Garda Síochána, which issue the small public service vehicle driving licence.

It is not a requirement when making an application for a small public service vehicle driving licence to declare the hours to be worked, if the person will work full-time or part-time or if the person is already engaged in full-time employment. The only requirement is to sign a declaration under the 1963 regulations that the person will not work any more than 11 hours on three consecutive days.

That is the current regulation and we will review all these regulations when we take over driver licensing from the Garda Síochána. At that stage we will consult with the Garda Síochána and the advisory council to the commission. The criteria will need to be looked at on that stage.

To clarify, if somebody does a full working day, that person can leave that place of work and do an 11-hour shift behind the wheel?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Effectively, that could happen and we do not have statistics on how prevalent that is. When I meet the representative bodies of the industry, they certainly indicate much of that is happening. However, they do not have statistical information. None of us has it and we can only get it from the Garda Síochána, the licensing authority, and it does not currently take that information. It is difficult to emphasise the statistics but, generally, people who have spoken to taxi drivers have found that some have another job, some have two part-time jobs and some only work part time as taxi drivers.

Is there a question on the application form or should there be one?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There is not currently a question on the application form.

Could we suggest that when the commissioner takes over--

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We will examine that matter when we take over driver licensing.

I suggest that the commissioner initiate discussions with the Garda authorities now rather than wait until she takes over. There should be co-ordinated work between the commission and the Garda to examine this matter because it seems to be a major difficulty. A procedure should be put in place to establish on an application form, as has been suggested, the kind of employment people have. The matter of people working full-time in jobs and then part-time as taxi drivers could be monitored and discouraged.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I appreciate the Chairman's point on application forms and I feel that it is a good idea for the future, when we take over driver licensing. At the moment, however, even if the Garda extended the criteria in the application form, the applicant, be he or she a full-time or part-time driver, will still meet the criteria for the granting of the licence. Even if a person who works full-time applies for a licence the Garda cannot currently refuse him or her a small public service vehicle driver licence for that reason.

Is there a tax clearance element to the form?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

A tax clearance certificate is required.

So the employment circumstances of applicants are known.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

A TC2 is required for a small public service vehicle driver licence and for a vehicle licence so a person on PAYE can go to the tax office for a tax clearance certificate. The Revenue Commissioners have informed us that when people apply for a tax clearance certificate they ask why it is required. Much depends on this. Applicants must declare the purpose of the tax clearance certificate on the application to the Revenue Commissioners.

Does the commissioner feel it would be desirable to encourage full-time taxi drivers in future, rather than people holding other jobs and driving taxis for extra income?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

That should be encouraged. Part-time drivers are required. Whether drivers work part-time in their own right or following another form of employment depends on the employment they have previously had. A person, for example a low-income earner, may need to top up what he or she earns in full-time employment. We are not in the business of putting people out of work but we want to ensure customers are safe and this must be examined from the point of view of working hours. This will be studied when we take over driver licensing.

Statistically, it would be useful if we had a mechanism to allow us find out how many drivers work full-time and how many part-time. In terms of character references, when a person seeks a licence he or she should be asked what his or her occupation is and to provide references from previous employers. If a current employer is a referee he or she may attest that the applicant is a full-time employee. In terms of statistics, it would be useful for the commission to know, in a review, how many of the 26,000 taxi plates are held by part-timers who work on Friday and Saturday nights.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There are small differences between the driver licence and the vehicle licence and the criteria applying to them. Regarding working time, under the criteria set out in the Taxi Regulation Act 2003, we can set the conditions for a driver licence in consultation with the Garda and the advisory council to the commission. I intend to consult them when we take over driver licensing.

Will the commissioner do that now? I mean no disrespect but taking over this role will take time and it strikes me that it would not be difficult if in all new applications people were asked to include their existing occupation and give their PRSI number. It would be easy to establish whether an applicant seeks to become a full-time taxi driver or a part-time taxi driver, with which we have no difficulty. A regulation that allows taxi drivers work up to eleven hours, with half of all taxi licences held by people working in other jobs, makes no sense. I ask the commissioner to consider the measure I mentioned in the short term, together with the Garda.

As the Deputy said, it would be worthwhile, even for statistical purposes, to establish how many people work full time and how many part time. One complaint we constantly hear from full-time taxi drivers relates to the number of part-time taxi drivers who have a considerable impact on their ability to generate income and add to the abundance of unnecessary taxis at certain times.

I was in a taxi in Galway recently and the driver told me he was down from Donegal for the weekend to drive his taxi and would return home on Monday. That does not sound fair to people in Galway trying to earn a living from taxi driving.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

To answer the Chairman's question relating to plying and standing for hire, a person from Donegal who plies for hire in another county is in breach of our regulations. A person can only ply or stand for hire in the Garda division where he or she received his or her licence. This can be clearly seen on the identity card that sits on the dashboard.

Is the commissioner saying it is illegal for a person to do this?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

One can book a taxi anywhere in the country to go from A to B but the driver of a vehicle that is picked up at a rank or hailed in the street must be licensed to operate in that area. A person from Donegal, with Donegal clearly marked on his or her identity card, is not permitted to do the business the Chairman described.

What about people who come in and get a licence in Galway?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

That is fine; if the person is licensed to operate in Galway, so be it.

That is clearly what he did. He got a licence in Galway and comes down every weekend. I asked him and he said he has another job during the week.

Is it possible for someone to have licences in Dublin, Galway, Cork, Limerick and elsewhere?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

It varies because some Garda divisions will give additional licences. For example, one could have a licence in Wexford and then go to the public service vehicle, PSV, inspector in Cork--

That is very unfair. It is ridiculous.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

PSV regulations and road traffic regulations are a requirement. The only difference from one county to another is route selection and area knowledge and drivers would have to undertake this test with the local PSV inspector. This has assisted some drivers who deliver a service in adjoining areas. For example, in the greater Dublin area there is Dublin, Wicklow and Meath.

I have no problem with that.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Some of the Garda divisional areas cover two adjoining counties so drivers can ply and stand for hire in both counties.

Take Louth, for example, with no disrespect meant to Deputy O'Dowd. A person coming down the motorway will be in Dublin in 20 minutes. It would suit many taxi drivers to have a licence in Louth for Monday to Friday and then come down to Dublin for the lucrative weekend trade. They could be home in ten or 20 minutes.

These issues are quite clear in Louth. In east Meath, Drogheda and County Louth people may work, shop and so on in the same town. Cross-transfer is needed.

I am not suggesting it is not needed. I am pointing out that it is possible for a taxi owner to have a licence in Louth which he or she uses from Monday to Friday and then use a Dublin licence at the weekend.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

It is possible.

The person driving could not work more than the aforementioned 11 hours or three days.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Drivers make a declaration saying they will not work more than 11 hours for three consecutive days but that is a matter for enforcement and monitoring. The Chairman mentioned tachographs earlier and this is an area that could be examined.

Best practice in other countries should be studied.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

It is a practice we should look at.

I will raise a final issue.

I wish to ask about--

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Deputy McGrath mentioned the level of detail that will apply to the national audit of taxi ranks. As I mentioned earlier, the level of detail will cover every village and town. Taxis now operate in areas they never did before. We will look at every village, town and city across the country.

Deputy McGrath raised the matter of the enforcement officers' time and what they did with it. We have taken over the area of complaints from the Garda Síochána and these must be dealt with and investigated. The complaints procedure is that a consumer will phone our consumer line, 1890 606090, get a complaint form and fill it out. This comes to the commission where it is assigned to an enforcement officer who will assess the complaint and decide whether it merits the further investigation of calling in the taxi driver for interview. The officer will also follow up with the consumer as the investigation proceeds. It may be a case of interviewing both sides who may then come to some kind of resolution, perhaps a return of fare in the case of overcharging, or it may be a more serious matter that might proceed to a prosecution or a formal warning. That is what happens with complaints. There are nine officers and we had 763 complaints to investigate last year.

Obviously enforcement officers are also out on operations around the country. Rotas are planned on a week to week basis in an effort to cover all areas. A member mentioned that nine officers operate in Dublin. Our head office is in Dublin and it is the only office we have, with 22 permanent staff. The actual staffing arrangements are in Dublin but our people travel across the country 24 hours a day. The operations happen nationwide and we try to do as many rotas as possible. We also respond to complaints from particular areas while our officers are there.

The identity card was mentioned. There is also a smart card which carries the same information which can be used by our enforcement officers to ensure that there is proper licensing. A member asked about the vehicle licence identification. It differs from the ordinary one in requiring the placement of a five digit number on the roofsign of each taxi or in the tamper-proof disc of a hackney or limousine. The latter has a different colour, introduced this year. In the front of the five digit number for a limousine there is an "L"; a taxi has a "T"; and a hackney has a "H". The members can see examples of these.

Deputy Kennedy mentioned the numbering system of licences which I will explain. The economic review was mentioned with regard to whether it will address the issues of numbers and earnings. It will. We will try to widen the scope as much as possible in the economic review. The last one was undertaken in 2005 and is quite dated now so it is obvious that we need a full review.

There was a question of complaints about non-nationals; there are very few complaints in this regard.

Does that cover the point of liberalisation in 2000?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I do not have figures here concerning the number of licences at the point of liberalisation. We can supply them. They were originally issued in the national review. However, the consultants who took those details took them from the vehicle registration unit as distinct from data held by individual local authorities so they are not as precise as the figures that I can provide. These apply since we took over licensing.

Does Ms Doyle have further answers?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Deputy Kennedy had a list of questions.

I apologise. I thought they had been answered.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Deputy Kennedy mentioned the situation in London. I have some figures contrasting the number of licences in London with those in Dublin. London has 21,924 vehicle licences, which works out at one taxi per 342 persons. Those details are from March 2008. Dublin has 12,861 licences for taxis, hackneys, limousines and wheelchair-accessible taxis. That is one such vehicle for every 129 persons. That information is also dated to March 2008.

As part of the economic review we will benchmark the numbers in Ireland against those in European countries, with regard to city and counties, and taking into consideration the different types of small public service vehicles available. In addition to taxis there are private hire vehicles, a classification which correspond to our hackneys, and there are limousines. We will look at all of these areas.

Deputy Kennedy asked about the licensing numbering system. Previously, each local authority had a separate numbering system which led to duplication of numbers across the country. There was Baile Átha Cliath 1234, Corcaigh 1234, and so on. When we took over as the national vehicle licensing authority we decided to put in place a unique licensing number, a five digit number that would be easy to remember. There were about 20,000 vehicles at that stage and rather than start off with a four digit numbering system which might have to be increased at a later stage, we commenced with a five digit number. To that end we began with the number "10,001". Each vehicle licence was given a unique five digit number and anybody who has a conditional offer of a licence gets a new five digit number. If a licence number is not taken up by a new applicant that number is not used. For us, it is good for enforcement purposes to ensure that number is dead, that nobody can buy a roof sign and stick it on a car and operate illegally. Any conditional offer of a number that has not been taken up goes back into the pot and sits there where we can identify it as having been offered to somebody at some stage but now reckoned dead. Then we move on and offer the next number to the next applicant. Therefore the numbering system that members might observe on some taxis might reach 40,000 but the actual numbers of vehicles at the end of March came to 26,324. That is the total figure for taxis, hackneys and limousines across the country.

Does that mean that approximately 5,000 numbers are not taken up?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

That is roughly the case, since we started licensing. At the beginning we thought that we might put the unused number back into the pot but the administration of that was difficult. The applicants have 90 days to take up the conditional offer. Some people buy a vehicle which might fail its NCT test. They might then consider buying another vehicle and we keep the number for them but if they do not take it up the number dies. It is an easier way to monitor the system and to ensure effective enforcement.

How does the commissioner monitor illegal usage? If a person wishes to defraud the system by putting a number under 41,000 on the car roof, that number will appear legitimate.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

It is a legitimate number but as such is only available to us.

Unless there is a complaint the commissioner will not know about it.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There must also be a disc on the windscreen and the back window. It is not possible to obtain these without going through the licensing process with the National Car Test centre staff who administer licensing on our behalf at present. It is true that somebody could go out and have a five digit number sitting on the roof but there will not be an accompanying licence disc. That serves as the actual licence in addition to the paper licence and it must appear on the front and rear windows. If an attempt is made to peel it off, it disintegrates. The disc clearly shows the expiry date of the licence. The roof sign carries nothing about the expiry date of the licence but it works on the outside for enforcement purposes. On the inside the discs are there for the customer, including the one in the rear which they can clearly see.

How many prosecutions for such illegal operations were there in 2007?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We only commenced prosecuting--

I refer to prosecutions shared between the commission and the Garda.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We do not have statistics concerning how many prosecutions the Garda have issued. I have statistics of prosecutions by the commission as a result of enforcement operations around the country. We issued different proceedings for unlicensed vehicles, unlicensed drivers and overcharging. There were 22 prosecutions in 2007 and it was the later part of that year by the time we got court dates for those proceedings. We had 28 different charges and 22 prosecutions, all of which received fines ranging from €200 to €2,000.

The figure was 26 and the commissioner is not aware of how many prosecutions the Garda pursued.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We do not have those statistics from the Garda but we will be talking to it about that matter because there must be consistency concerning the number of prosecutions it undertakes under our legislation as distinct from road traffic legislation which it also uses in prosecuting.

Are those people all off the road now?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

In general, they are not. It depends on what the prosecution may be. Overcharging, unlicensed vehicles--

I am referring to people who are unlicensed, who are not supposed to be on the road because they have bogus plates or licences.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The unlicensed drivers and drivers of unlicensed vehicles whom we brought before the courts have been fined and some received very serious fines.

What about the enforcement teams?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Our enforcement team takes them off the road whenever it encounters them. They can enter premises or take the roof sign from a vehicle. The prosecution then follows.

Can they reapply, even if they get a €2,000 fine in court? I am a good boy so I will abide by the law.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

In those circumstances the Garda most likely will refuse a licence but one would have the opportunity to reapply on appeal to the District Court for the granting of a licence.

I did not get an oppurtunity to ask a particular question earlier because I missed part of the discussion. Does Ms Doyle think there is a sense in which the days of the regulator are numbered, given the Dublin Transport Authority Bill which is before the Seanad this afternoon? We will examine the legislation shortly. Reading the Bill, it seems there will be a mass transit authority for the Dublin region and presumably a similar authority for the rest of Ireland will follow. Is it sensible that the taxi regulator should become part of the overall transport regulator? This may be a policy issue, but did anyone consult the taxi regulator about this and discuss the likely future relationship? Will the regulator be absorbed into the proposed new authority or will it be a subset of it? I understand there will be amendments to the Bill concerning taxis.

The new skills development programme seems an interesting idea. Will there be a time when people cannot effectively walk in off the street and obtain a licence? Will there be a situation where people will undergo reasonably intensive training? Will there be a certificate, an examination and a structure whereby new people can come forward? We should remember it was the Government that created the free-for-all with which we are now trying to deal.

There is a need for an audit of taxi ranks. My colleague, Senator Brady, is aware of this as we both work in the same territory. He lives close to the Donaghmede taxi rank and I also work near there every day. Those who work there have to do incredible things to get around a lamppost that should not be present. We can see this problem with many taxi ranks. When will this audit be produced?

On the issue of taxi fares, what has been happening with oil prices is very serious. There has been a significant change in costs since the deregulation of the taxi industry. For example, the development whereby the price of diesel jumped above the price of petrol is astonishing.

I thank the delegation for the presentation, which is very well laid out. Is it not necessary to keep a closer eye on fares and remuneration? Senator Brady mentioned the case of a man trying to exist on €150 less per week with costs of between €50 to €70. That is not much above a minimum wage, with €200 to €300 for a week's work in a hard job with serious responsibilities to passengers and the public. These workers need to abide by the new conditions and standards which the regulator has, correctly, laid down.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The Dublin Transport Authority Bill is for the greater Dublin area and we will be working with the proposed authority. I mentioned earlier that we would supply the audit of taxi ranks to the authority as soon as it is available. I agree that as part of a new national transport regulator we would have a role, but there is no provision for that in the Dublin Transport Authority Bill which is proposed for the greater Dublin area. We are a national regulator with a national brief. However, there is a part towards the end of the Bill which states that the Dublin transportation authority, the Commission for Taxi Regulation and the Road Safety Authority should consult together. We will consult these bodies on a wide range of issues, particularly the integration of small public service vehicles into the overall public transport system. We will work with it in examining the infrastructure which is one of the main areas of its brief and certainly--

In the Dublin area, the DTA will have the role of calling forth services and deciding there should be so much fixed rail, so many buses, so many taxis, public service vehicles and so on. Will that not give the overall regulator in the Dublin region a key role in the work the taxi regulator is now doing?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

It certainly could, although the Dublin transportation authority would be working for the Dublin area. The entire country is a national taxi meter area so a Dublin taxi driver can be booked and travel anywhere. Although he or she may have obligations in the Dublin area, he or she can also travel throughout the country. There is some difference between that issue and the overall route planning for Dublin transport which is under the brief of the proposed authority. We certainly will be working with it.

The skills development programme is being developed and we intend, first, to roll out the programme for new entrants to the industry and, second, to roll out the programme to all current licence holders. This will give them the opportunity to get the same enhancement of knowledge that we will be offering to new entrants to the industry. There will be a certificate and an examination which will be very user-friendly. We hope later this year to supply the content of the skills development programme to all drivers, of which there are 40,000. We intend to develop a DVD for all drivers which will have a user-friendly, self-learning focus. Drivers will be able to undertake the test at any time they choose, up to the renewal of their licences, which is January 2012 for current licence holders.

We hope to have the full audit of taxi ranks and the national requirements available to supply to both the Dublin transportation authority and to local authorities by the end of this year. We will be engaging consultants shortly and we will put a time limit on when we expect a report from them. We will expect in the first stage an interim report by the end of this year.

We are very conscious of the price of fuel. There can be a closer eye on fares, but we must strike a balance and continue to encourage use. We do this through the national awareness programme to try to encourage people to use taxis and small public service vehicles. In examining fares one consideration is that if the fare were to be changed on a constant basis, there would be another cost for taxi drivers because their meters would have to be calibrated for the new fare. What I will examine this year is whether the taxi meter could be index linked to indicate what the fare might be next year or the year after, taking fuel costs into account. Obviously, if those increases do not occur, so be it. Some of the meters may take index linking, others will not and we will talk to taxi meter installers to ensure the minimum possible cost for taxi drivers. If we were to examine fares every year there would be a need for calibration of meters which is quite costly to taxi drivers. It involves taxi meter installers and the legal metrology office of the National Standards Authority of Ireland, which has the legal authority to seal the meters.

I do not wish to be critical but I am concerned, given what we have heard from the taxi drivers, about the amount of illegal activity, including people who are not properly licensed or who do not have the driver's licence. Will the regulator liaise with the Garda on the number of prosecutions that have been brought by the commission in addition to its 26 prosecutions? Perhaps in September the regulator and the Garda could return to the committee with a plan for comprehensive monitoring of the taxis that operate in the five main cities to establish if the anecdotal evidence we hear is correct. The claim is that many people are operating illegally. We all appreciate that this is difficult to monitor, but at least the commission, given it has only nine staff, could put in place some mechanism with the Garda to monitor that situation in the coming months.

The regulator mentioned transferability of licences. Can she explain what this means?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Currently a taxi driver is transferable. A hackney driver with a limousine licence is non-transferable, whereas a taxi licence is transferable. There was mention earlier of the number of licences that could be leased or rented. This practice was undertaken by some members of the industry whereby they could purchase licences and then rent and lease both the licence and the licensed vehicle to someone who might arrive in the country without the means to buy a licence or vehicle. Such people could rent the leased package and offer the service to the public. I issued a consultation paper to the industry last year requesting its views on whether this practice should continue and who should take responsibility when a vehicle licence is issued. It is not the proper chain where people can buy multiple licences and then sit back and let someone else operate them and earn a rent. That was never the idea or the spirt of the issue of the licences.

I issued a consultation paper to the industry last year. The feedback was to let the status quo to remain but to ensure the licence holder took responsibility for the service provided under the licence. That is one of the new actions in our action plan for 2008-09, under which the licence holder will need to take responsibility. Licence holders will have to ensure the driver operating the vehicle on their behalf - whether they are employed or renting the vehicle - is licensed and properly insured.

Does the commissioner have any idea how many such operators there are?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

There are not many multiple licences in our records, but there are some. Someone who holds a multiple licence could be a dispatch operator who has 100 vehicles and employs drivers.

I have no problem with him.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

However, there are some who have perhaps five, ten or 15 licences. They are the ones we are dealing with.

On the driving licence, surely the Garda vetting system and accreditation would apply?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I am referring to vehicle licences which can be purchased. They are totally separate from driver licences.

Someone can rent it.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The vehicle licence holder may rent the vehicle, but for the purpose--

What about the driver?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The driver must have a small public service vehicle driver licence - that is what I am putting in place. In the past, there was a practice of people buying vehicle licences and renting the package. This can be seen in advertisements in taxi publications.

It was possible that the driver did not have the proper insurance or licence.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Absolutely. That is why we are introducing regulations.

When will they come into being?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The regulations are being drafted as a result of our action plan.

Is the commissioner aware that licences, with or without vehicles, are now, according to the taxi associations, regularly advertised in various cities, including Cork, Galway and Dublin? There is a market in taxi licences because of the numbers who are leaving.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I am so aware. I have figures with me. From September 2006 to March 2008, some 2,000 licences were transferred from person to person. That usually happens when somebody sells a licence to somebody else or transfers a licence within his or her family.

Does the commissioner have to be informed?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We have to be informed and the transfer has to go through us.

Am I reading correctly the increase between March 2007 and March 2008? The number seems to have increased from 22,000 to 26,000 - an increase of 4,000.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Correct.

What would be the commissioner's view if we proposed to the Minister for Transport that primary legislation should be changed to give the commissioner the power to apply a cap on the number of licences being given out at any particular location? Let me emphasise that this has nothing to do with curtailing competition - the bedrock of the system is that there is competition and that there are enough taxis in operation. The commissioner has said she does not have the power to apply a cap, but it strikes us that there may be some merit in the argument. For argument's sake, let us take Galway, where the number of licences has increased from 120 to 1,200. Licences are for sale every week in the local newspapers. Week after week I am given issues of newspapers showing licences for sale. Therefore, there is a market and competition is certainly not an issue. Given those difficulties, would it make sense for the commissioner to be given the power to apply a cap when there are too many taxis at a particular location?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

As I mentioned, the number of licences transferred from person to person is very low. I have some statistical information. If we spread across the country the 2,040 licences that have transferred since we took over responsibility for licensing, it means a figure of less than 1% in any particular county at any particular time. I understand that, as was said, there are licences for sale in the newspapers, but only 0.02% of licences have been transferred in any given month since we took over responsibility for licensing, which is low. Considering the number of taxis in the country, the figure is low. That is probably indicative of the situation. There may be enough taxis. At what stage would someone make a decision that there were too many?

That is against a background of 4,000 extra taxi licences being issued in the past 12 months. If that continues, another 4,000 will be issued next year. Given the chaos about which we have heard today, it strikes me that - not to interfere with competition but to give the commissioner the power to organise the marketplace better - the commissioner could have the power and discretion to apply a cap, perhaps on a temporary basis, when it was evident that there were more taxis available than necessary.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

As I mentioned, there is a High Court decision--

I am aware of that but should the committee recommend to the Minister for Transport that he consider the possibility of changing the primary legislation to give the commissioner that power?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

The most important decision that could be made would be to increase the number of wheelchair accessible vehicles and the grant and subsidy available.

I appreciate that.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

That would be one of the most important aspects.

I appreciate that. In fact, as a former Minister of State with responsibility for disability services, I am very concerned at the serious reduction in the number of wheelchair accessible taxis because they are not viable. However, that is not the question I am asking. I want the commissioner's honest opinion - it is important that we hear it.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

My honest opinion is that market forces will determine the number of taxis. People are very aware of the new standards we are introducing - particularly the vehicle standards, which will be effective from 1 January 2009. They will change the entire system relating to vehicle standards and the types of vehicles that can enter the industry. They will eliminate many cars currently in the industry and that could otherwise enter it in the future. That is the first point to make.

The second point is that we are raising the standard of entry into the industry through the introduction of the new skills development programme which will tackle the inconsistency in the testing of drivers. Both developments will change the numbers of vehicles coming into the industry. I think the situation should be monitored for some time yet, rather than a decision being made now to put a cap on numbers.

We accept that and welcome the economic review the commissioner will carry out. It should certainly put on the table some factual information on income earning ability and the current viability of the taxi industry. From what we have heard today, if another 4,000 taxi licences are issued in the next 12 months, there will be a problem. I ask only that the commissioner monitor the situation carefully and that, if she feels it is necessary for her - not in an anti-competitive way - to have the powers to deal effectively with too many taxis being at a particular location, she consider the matter.

After the review, will we have a good picture of the actual financial output of the industry? In other words, will we be able to examine the overall context about which the Chairman is talking and work out what exactly has been the level of growth? For example, we know from last month that the construction industry has nearly collapsed. It has gone from being incredibly successful to an industry which is, apparently, in extreme trouble, according to the output in March. Is the commissioner saying the review will give us the definitive economic knowledge to enable us to make a judgment about workforces and so on?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Absolutely. That is the reason for undertaking the economic review in the first place. The Deputy mentioned the economic downturn in the construction industry which has been indicated in the number of applicants for small public service vehicle licences because the taxi industry is easily accessible. We must examine the impact of liberalisation. It is probably premature to consider capping numbers until such time as the review has been undertaken.

Will that be done by way of turnover or through checking with different operators?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We will be engaging consultants to carry it out on our behalf. There will be a wide consultation process with both consumers and industry representatives, including dispatch operators, during which supply and demand, the impact of liberalisation and the numbers will be looked at and compared, as I mentioned, with trends in other European countries.

One will not obtain information on the turnover of individual taxi operators.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

Their turnover in terms of their income.

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We will certainly undertake a review of that aspect also

When does Ms Doyle expect to receive that report?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

We are preparing the tender documents for consultants. I am hopeful we will have the report by the end of the year but I cannot guarantee this. It may depend on its scope and what happens when the consultants engage in the particular undertaking but we should certainly receive an interim report.

I make one request of Ms Doyle. I respect the hard work she is doing. She has a difficult job. We also acknowledge the work of her staff. I ask that she take cognisance of what we have heard today from the taxi associations, in particular their views on the numbers of taxis and the facilities available. I ask also that she try to respond as positively as she can to them because it is important that those who provide the service and regulate it have as good a relationship as possible. Will she return to the committee in September when we can tease out some of these issues further with her and receive her response?

Ms Kathleen Doyle

I will be very happy to return in September and report on progress.

I thank the representatives of the taxi associations who made their views known to the committee. We will certainly bring back the representatives from Cork and Limerick in September. The committee will continue to monitor the situation and try to be of assistance to the industry in a constructive way. Our primary responsibility is to provide a good service for the consumer, ensure those who provide that service do so in a way that is in keeping with best practice and that they are properly rewarded.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 21 May 2008.
Top
Share