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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 8 Oct 2008

Metro North Economic Corridor: Discussion with Fingal County Council.

The next item is a discussion with Fingal County Manager and his team who will make a submission on the metro north economic corridor. I welcome Mr. David O'Connor, Fingal County Manager, Mr. P. J. Howell, director of services, Mr. Michael Lorigan, director of services, Mr. Gilbert Power, director of services, Mr. Jim Cleary, senior engineer, Ms Rachel Kenny, senior planner, and Ms Ann-Marie Farrelly, senior executive officer.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. O'Connor to commence the presentation.

Mr. David O’Connor

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make a presentation. The metro north economic corridor is an example of integrated land use and transportation, which is an important principle on which to build integrated strategies for the country. When Fingal County Council started promoting the metro north idea, we described it as "A Path to the Future". I will briefly summarise the main points of the Indecon report on the economic development strategy for the metro north economic corridor, which has been circulated. We will then show a short DVD, although the Chairman may wish to cut short that part of the presentation. I am more than willing to explain any issue that arises at any point in our contribution.

Competition between city regions has increased as competition among countries has declined. For example, the Dutch have made great efforts to develop what they call the "delta metropolis". Instead of expanding Amsterdam, they decided to develop and strongly link four or five main cities, including Utrecht, Haarlem and Leiden. The most significant feature of this development is that public transport is the core link between the cities in question. It is this that makes the idea work, for example, it takes only 20 minutes to travel between the various cities in the "metropolis".

The same approach is visible in the case of co-operation between Sweden and Denmark. Members may be familiar with the city of Malmö, which lies on the other side of the Öresund Strait from Copenhagen. The two cities have been linked since the opening of the Öresund Bridge which joins the two countries. This key investment by the Governments of Denmark and Sweden shows a strong vision.

Dublin Airport, which is at the centre of the metro north economic corridor, is an engine for growth, accounting for at least 12,000 jobs. Employment at the airport is likely to double when the second terminal opens and other projects such as the second runway are completed, if and when that takes place. Infrastructure investment in the area is vital.

In examining this issue Fingal County Council sought to ensure we would not waste the opportunity presented by the Government's decision to invest in Transport 21 and metro north by putting infrastructure in the wrong place. The temptation to act quickly makes coherent planning especially important.

The Indecon report prepared for Fingal County Council was viewed by Indecon as a welcome opportunity to present an economic development strategy for the whole corridor. The strategy is based on detailed research, into which I will give a little insight in a moment. The border between the Fingal County Council and Dublin city area occurs at Ballymun. Immediately north of the Northwood stop at Ballymun and Santry is the M50, followed by metro park, the airport and the town of Swords, which has a population of 46,000 people. North of the town is the metro terminus and the park and ride facility. Lissenhall, located just south of the park and ride, is a major land development area where new expansion can take place.

On population change comparisons, the population change in the metro north economic corridor and other areas has been extraordinary. Between 2002 and 2006 the population of the State increased by 8%, whereas population growth in the corridor was 32%. The overall population of Fingal increased by 22% over the same period, whereas the population of Dublin city increased by just 2%. The metro north economic area is clearly in a position to grow for the city region.

On age distribution, members will note that a comparison of the census figures from 2002 and 2006 shows that the average age in the economic corridor is decreasing. We have a young population and a study carried out by Fingal County Council showed the current population trend is likely to continue until at least 2030. That will be driven by the age profile of the workforce.

Who lives in the metro economic corridor and where do they work? The study showed that 73% of residents travel to work outside the area. We have, therefore, a reserve of people who could be put to work in the immediate area. Figures on the number of employees in the area by residence, in other words, where people are located, show that most employees live elsewhere in Fingal. The next largest group is natives of the metro economic corridor. The study also found that 25% of those who work in the corridor are residents of Dublin city. This figure is important from the perspective of public transport as it demonstrates potential for reverse commuting, a trend that lends itself to strong, sustainable public transport.

The area's key strengths include the high employment rate. Approximately 70% of the population aged 15 years and over is at work. Members may have noted figures last year which showed that nationwide Swords had the highest percentage of available population in employment. The area's dependency rate is, therefore, low because virtually everyone is earning a living. A large proportion of the population is aged between 25 to 44 years, which is the family forming age group. In addition, the area has a labour skills pool and Dublin Airport is located within it. The area's proximity to the airport, Dublin city and major sea ports provides access to markets. As regards sea ports, members will be aware of a proposal to develop a port at Bremore.

The existing base of firms in the area includes significant companies. Recently, for example, Kelloggs decided to base its international network for Europe in the immediate vicinity of Dublin Airport. We plan to increase the population from its current level to a critical mass of almost 120,000.

As regards access to major third and fourth level institutions, Dublin City University is in the catchment area, while Blanchardstown Institute of Technology is not far away. I will not blow our trumpet too hard on the issue of quality of life, other than to note that the sea coast and the large green area of Fingal is a definite advantage.

The metro north economic corridor is not a short-term plan of two to five years but a 20 to 30-year vision which aims to increase employment in the corridor by 37%. How is this figure constituted? We intend to maximise employment within the corridor, focusing on the key areas of high value industry and internationally traded services. We want to have fourth level graduates in the area because they can commute easily to other places and move in and out of the area quickly to deal with their colleagues in foreign countries.

Other objectives include to rapidly expand the skilled local population and establish a carbon neutral city region, both of which are central to our plans. Where will additional employment be generated? As we all know, industry is diminishing so the sectors in which expansion will happen is between market services and international jobs. Within that, the core third level, fourth generation people are those with whom we want to deal.

The strategy is to target an increase in population to 128,000. Most of the increase in population should be in the Swords area itself. The development strategy should facilitate 37,000 additional jobs. We are not talking about making a dormitory town for Dublin. This is an economic area that would be primarily driven by the economic growth of the place. We will make sure the planning regulations do not allow the area to be populated completely with residential zones. We will put planning controls in place to ensure that development will happen with economic development not with housing. The strategy should attract a range of high-tech employment.

Indecon recommended that Fingal County Council should support proposals for a university campus in the metro north economic corridor area. Two third level institutions have expressed a keen interest in moving part or all of their campuses to the area. The talks are currently at a delicate stage but it is very encouraging to be met by open doors when one approaches people. Indecon also recommended measures to facilitate the establishment of a hospital. Members are aware that the construction of hospitals has changed from how things operated in the past. We must attract people who are prepared to invest in such a facility. People have expressed an interest in talking to us about this already. We will see the big development sites of Swords-Lissenhall, Dublin Airport eastlands and metropark towards the end of the presentation.

Indecon recommended the strategy should be driven by the council with the co-operation of public and private partners. It stated that investment in supporting infrastructure to accommodate the expansion must be implemented. It is vital that we put the infrastructure in place. The targeting of the economic corridor by the development agencies is essential. A skills strategy should be prepared to support the economic strategy. We already carry out a business skills survey every two years. We talk to all the businesses in our area and ask them what skills they need. We give that information to the universities and the third level institutions.

Development contributions and other charges should be designed to attract high-skilled employment. If we can modify these contributions in any way to target certain kinds of employment we will do that. We will continue to talk to Government about how we might tweak the development contributions system, which is quite simplistic at the moment. We are reviewing it to see what we can do. The contributions are for things we have to do, so we need to charge them. However, we will try to find other ways to be more creative about how we structure the charges. It goes without saying that new developments in the corridor should meet best international practice. The coastline and Malahide Estuary, which is immediately beside us, are magnificent. The estuary has been designated under the habitats directive. We must look after it to the highest international standards. It is a huge asset for the people who might want to work and live there.

Higher densities for selected areas are required. Members will gain an insight into that in a moment when they see the DVD. Consideration should be given to special planning approaches. That implies the use of SDZs for example. We are always open to methods that might help people to bring forward ideas. We would very much like to see such ideas given a little more strength, as proposed under the Kenny report. I know all political parties favour that approach. If there is something we can do in that regard to help expedite development, we will do it.

Targeted marketing is needed to promote the corridor. The presentation that follows is just the beginning of that kind of targeting. We want to show how such targeted marketing could work to promote the corridor abroad.

The conclusions from Indecon are that the metro north economic corridor can be an internationally significant investment location. We have seen a number of those. There is one in Stockholm called Kista, which has 120,000 residents, 65,000 employees, internationally competitive advantage through the technological infrastructure system, and a university is located immediately beside it. The Centennial Campus in North Carolina is another example we would like to follow. The corridor can contribute significantly to the future economic development of Ireland. It is important to say this is not just about Dublin; this is about the Dublin city region. I am not flying only a Fingal flag here. I am talking about promoting the Dublin city region, which is competing with city regions in the rest of the world and that will bring economic strength to the country not just to Dublin. The effective development of the corridor is key to maximising value for money on the metro north rail link.

The strategy was launched in May 2008. It supports the prioritisation of metro north. The strategy has the support of national and local development agencies. The Dublin Airport Authority plans to develop an airport city, with which I know the committee is familiar. We have hard and soft copies of the strategic vision, Your Swords — an Emerging City, if members wish to take them. A strategic implementation group is being set up.

I will show a short DVD that will give members an idea of the kind of international marketing we have in mind. This is the first cut so things will change slightly as we go on. We can add to it as much as we wish.

The joint committee viewed a DVD presentation.

I congratulate the county manager and his county council colleagues. This is the first time I have seen such joined-up thinking and long-term vision on the part of a local authority. It is most welcome and I have not seen it to any great extent in my political career. The concept of the metro north economic corridor adds a new dimension to the metro project. The presentation and DVD point clearly point to a long-term plan and vision that involve much more than simply the provision of the metro. What the county manager presented us with represents a defining moment in respect of the proper approach to planning. While the metro is central, the local authority must be commended for its approach, which entails the development of a high-tech employment strategy and a sustainable, carbon-neutral city, in addition to emphasising new technology, fourth level education, and research and development. The example of Kista in Stockholm is good. I congratulate the county manager.

The metro project is not just about the metro in that it will be very significant to the whole country. It is vital that the project continue on track, irrespective of the economic climate. I note the Minister's comments during the week and welcome them. None of us knows the timescale. As Mr. O'Connor stated, the project will not be completed today, tomorrow, this year or next year, but the conceptualisation and planning should continue. While the sum of money involved is very significant, amounting to between €3.5 billion and €4 billion, it is praiseworthy to have such vision at this time of economic difficulty and crisis in the banking sector.

Assuming the economic difficulties do not delay the planning process significantly — I accept it may be delayed to some degree — can the county manager indicate the planning timescale not only for the metro but also for the new town developments shown on the DVD? On a previous occasion, we discussed with him the question of an interim park and ride facility at Lissenhall, to be serviced by bus before the metro comes on stream. Has he made any progress on this?

Mr. David O’Connor

I thank the Chairman for his highly complimentary remarks. We feel this is a time to plan coherently for the future. We have a document, which we will circulate, entitled Your Swords — Strategic Vision 2035. This indicates the timescale the planners should bear in mind. We produce county development plans every six years but it is arguable that we could have strategic development plans for longer periods and even national strategic plans that would cover a longer period than that envisaged in the national spatial strategy, for instance. I very much support what the Chairman is saying.

One reason we commissioned Indecon to help us was so we could be as agile as possible regarding anything that might happen. For example, if somebody makes a proposal for the lands in Swords centre, we want to ensure that what we permit there does not have consequences elsewhere. The plans, while they set out very firm principles, do not require one phase to happen after another. Developments can happen in different places simultaneously or in an order that seems out of sequence, simply because we have thought the whole project through. We will not allow developments in certain places that might prejudice the better development of somewhere else. This is the primary reason for drawing on the expertise of Indecon.

On the second question, I will defer to Mr. Michael Lorigan because he has done work on what was discussed during my last appearance before the committee. Since that meeting, which he attended, we investigated the short-term park and ride option and the question of access to Dublin city. Deputies Reilly and O'Dowd will know what the M1, which is barely five years old, is like in the evenings and mornings at present. They will know how difficult it can be to get into the city from that quadrant. Metro north will clearly take many motorists off the roads but, in the meantime, there are other means of transport to get into the city.

Mr. Michael Lorigan

As I indicated in correspondence to the committee, the approach we have taken is to consider sites directly adjacent to the existing network. The long-term park and ride facility associated with metro north at Bellinstown will be movable in that it will end up as a multistorey facility because of the value of the lands directly adjacent to the station. It will consist of approximately 2,000 strategic spaces which will be well served by a frequent metro service. The lands in question are greenfield sites. The actual timing of bringing access infrastructure to these lands to locate a temporary park and ride facility is not deliverable in any meaningful sense. We are examining the suitability of the lands directly adjacent to the existing road network and have commenced negotiations with some of the landowners. This would be a short-term stone surface park and ride facility served by buses.

The Black Ash park and ride facility in Cork city has a 6% interception rate of cars coming into the city. A similar interception rate of traffic coming from north Dublin would mean 350 cars coming off the road into a park and ride facility. It is important people are confident they can get a parking space at the facility. This would mean 500 spaces for an interim park and ride facility. To ensure any degree of consistency of service, six buses would be required for the site. We are preparing more detailed proposals to see how feasible the project would be. In tandem, it is critical that scheduled bus services can access the city centre through the Dublin Port tunnel. Both measures would deliver benefits.

Commuter park and ride facilities would be the most significant element, as opposed to an all-day facility and would be better to deal with traffic congestion. The committee appreciates Fingal County Council's examination of the issue.

I welcome the delegation and was impressed by its presentation. It is extremely timely, given that the budget will be announced next Tuesday. If one believes the newspapers, the Cabinet is probably discussing this very project as we speak. However, there seems to be a contradiction between what the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, wants and what informed sources say.

I do not wish to cross swords with the delegation but there are several points I wish to raise. The national spatial strategy is the key document for national development. One problem, however, with it is that its proposed growth centres are not emerging. Meanwhile, there is increasing demand for infrastructural services in counties Dublin, Kildare, Louth, Meath and Wicklow. Thousands of young people have chosen to live in these areas and will spend the rest of their lives there. There is a need for hospitals, universities and other services. The national spatial strategy's objectives must be reviewed in the light of this.

There is an urgent need for joined-up thinking on a formal basis regarding the national spatial strategy and how north Dublin and County Louth are developing. The delegation referred to the location of the proposed north-east hospital. The report on the location ignored the population statistics for the north east. The thinking of county managers, the HSE and the Department of Health and Children is not as modern as the delegation's in that respect. Is there a need for joined-up thinking on the part of county managers and the HSE for the Dublin north and north-east region?

A smaller number of greater population centres is needed with the national spatial strategy. The major cities such as Cork and Galway need more investment but there should be less for the other growth centres identified in the strategy. We will not be able to give resources already needed if this is not changed.

The projects outlined are very important. The metro must be met by this essential infrastructure. Deputy Kennedy and I use the M1 and often have to set off for Dublin at the crack of dawn to avoid traffic congestion. Ten years ago it took me one hour to travel from Drogheda to Leinster House; yesterday it took me two. People are finding it difficult to get to work because of this.

The Dublin Transport Authority will be a major influence in the region. Joined-up thinking will be needed when it comes to examine the north-east corridor. Does the delegation agree with this? It expressed the needs of its administrative area, north County Dublin, but these are also the needs of counties Louth and Meath and, possibly, Kildare. We are 100% behind what it is saying. We need to change the way we think nationally. County Louth forms part of the BMW region but this is of no advantage to it. We should be playing on the same team as the council. I hope we can drive this agenda forward.

I welcome the delegation and commend and congratulate it on this plan. It is timely, given the discussions that have been taking place for the past six months in terms of the financial and planning capacity to pursue the development of the metro, as well as the more recent events which have spotlighted major infrastructural developments. As we know, it is one of a series of major initiatives Fingal County Council has taken, which includes the provision of school sites, for example. The council has taken a remarkable initiative which every other county council could emulate. I want to make this broad point and emphasise that the Labour Party strongly supports the general vision the council has tried to articulate.

I have a number of questions on the broader planning side, as well as on the transport side. I favoured the east route. It might be said I would do so because it passed through my constituency, but I favoured it because it had an advantage in having a higher population base in Nevinstown and the surrounding area. Nonetheless, I lost the battle and accept that we must move on and proceed urgently with what we have.

On overall population density, what population is envisaged in the corridor in, say, 2020 or 2030? How will this impact on the metro if, as we hope, it is place in 2015 or 2016? We are familiar with Dublin Airport having 100,000 passengers each day, certainly in the summer, and expect an extra 35,000 jobs in the area, as well as a higher population. What volume is the transport system expected to move in perhaps 12 or 25 years' time?

I sometimes have reservations about high density schemes. Other colleagues and I have wrestled with these issues on the north fringe, where there was no sustainable development strategy, SDS, and we sometimes considered development was ad hoc. We are to have a new city area for which there is a broad masterplan from Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council but no intricate one. The Chairman spoke at our last meeting about visiting a new city north of Stockholm where every service seems to have been integrated, as the delegation is suggesting for this plan. I have concerns that, despite the best efforts of Fingal County Council, there will be half-baked plans in trying to jump onto the main plan on the fringes of the corridor, into east County Meath and, as my colleague stated, County Louth. We need a coherent plan.

I particularly commend Fingal County Council on its planning in regard to the hospital and the university. The members of the north fringe forum are regularly told that Beaumont Hospital is at 130% capacity and that it is clear a new hospital is urgently needed for the greater Swords region. The university is also a key development. Dublin City University is a national university and not exactly the right kind of university for the region. I commend the delegation in this regard.

On the transport front, we know the first tenders for the metro will not be finalised until February. In meeting people I received an indication, on behalf of my party, of the length of time the second main tender phase would require — it will possibly take us into late 2010 or early 2011. As the most important local body in the path of the metro, does Fingal County Council have information on the timeframe involved? Obviously, there are grave concerns. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, spoke in recent days about new legislative measures on QBCs, which is meritorious and which I presume will be contained in the new public transport regulation Bill. However, some might prefer to have a busway or its equivalent and are not prepared to sustain the investment needed.

With regard to what will happen during the big dig, the most major ever in Dublin city or Fingal and which will cause the most disruption, is Fingal County Council liaising closely with the Dublin city manager, Mr. John Tierney, who has been asked to take a lead role? Will everything be in place if the Railway Procurement Agency and the Minister for Transport can get the scoping report moving forward? Will Fingal County Council be ready to move on its side in the run-up to the metro project?

Mr. David O’Connor

I shall answer the questions on the national spatial strategy, on which there were some interesting thoughts. I have good news for Deputy O'Dowd in the sense that Mr. Tom Dowling, the Meath county manger, the Louth county manager and I have together decided to undertake an M1 economic corridor strategy.

That is good news.

Mr. David O’Connor

We have been engaging in the tendering for this project and should shortly be able to commence it. The co-operation the Deputy seeks has been fundamentally established between us.

I am delighted to hear it. It is the best news I have heard in a long time. It is the way to move matters forward.

Mr. David O’Connor

Absolutely. With regard to the proposed port at Bremore, because it is literally on the cusp of both counties, Fingal County Council and Meath County Council have adopted a completely co-operative stance and are jointly meeting anybody with proposals.

I am not sure if Mr. O'Connor knows that the northern part of County Meath as far as Laytown is being included in the Louth constituency.

Mr. David O’Connor

It is very close.

The Louth county manager will also be interested in this, although he will not own it.

Mr. David O’Connor

On the wider issue to which the Deputy referred in regard to the north-east region and the national spatial strategy, as he will understand from the fact that we are working together on the M1 economic corridor strategy, we are anxious to develop it as an economic region and feed this into any reconsideration of the national spatial strategy.

As regards health service planning, we do not have a direct role but that is not to say we cannot have influence. Putting forward the 35-year vision is the most important first step. We will be engaging with the HSE in its long-term planning for the entire region. We have not been involved in any discussions about the hospital in Drogheda, Navan or anywhere else. Our own little hospital, if one likes, has been planned in isolation, perhaps more as an idea around the synergy it would have with the university and industry rather than necessarily as a strategic hospital for the region. We are open to all comers. Whatever it is that can be done, we will——

The point I was making was that the health board region was called Dublin north. It includes the Fingal County Council area but does not include any statistics for the hospital needs of the people of the area.

Mr. David O’Connor

Correct.

Mr. David O’Connor

The Deputy referred to the question of M1 capacity. I do not want it to be understood that the M1 is not the size it should be. It is but it should not be catering for so much commuter traffic; that is the issue. While the Deputy has demonstrated the difficulty in getting to the city, it is very important to understand that in the mornings and evenings we are actually blocking access to the airport and from the airport to the city. The airport is the critical gateway to the rest of the country. One of the things we discovered when we examined the metro north study was that if this did not happen, people simply would not be able to get in and out of the airport. This is often forgotten in the talk about deferment. If people cannot get in and out of the airport, there is not much to be said for how the country will work in terms of access, which is vital.

I thank Deputy Broughan for his kind remarks. I will mention Nevinstown, as he brought up the issue. While we examined it in some detail, it is often forgotten that there are serious constraints, not least those associated with the approach route into Dublin Airport. What it is possible to do underneath the approach route would not allow a similar economic strategy to be developed on those lands. As the Nevinstown option simply would be unable to respond in the same way, Fingal County Council's ability to contribute would be constrained. In the context of what members have seen in the screen presentation, I certainly believe Fingal County Council can contribute more than €500 million for the metro in development levies arising from section 49 of the Planning and Development Act 2000.

Deputy Broughan asked questions regarding population density, traffic levels and transport. I believe the Chairman has mentioned visiting Stockholm and I am sure he has Hammarby in mind. We have visited Hammarby twice and I have brought my councillors there because it provides reassurance on what a high quality environment it is possible to have. Moreover, it is not high density but represents family-orientated living in a very pleasant and well supported environment and is commendable for anyone to see. In addition, were the joint committee to go there, it also might consider visiting Malmö, which city almost died on its feet when General Motors pulled out the Saab works. However, the Swedish Government implemented a strong development strategy around Malmö, which definitely is worth seeing if members are considering a visit to Stockholm. It is only a train journey between both cities and I commend both to them.

The plan would be to increase the population in steps to avoid an imbalance between economic activity and the residential population. This is the reason we are talking about a 30-year vision, rather than one extending for 20 years or less. Consequently, after the completion of the metro in 2013 or 2015, there would not be significant growth in population immediately. We expect economic activity would happen quickly with the accompanying residential development to follow rapidly thereafter.

I refer to the number going to and from the airport. International comparisons show that one never gets more than 40% at a maximum to travel to an airport by public transport. People simply do not do this, as they need to bring their cars to the airport because they are going on holidays and so on. It has been said a metro to the airport does not make any sense and that is correct. A metro to the airport makes no sense. However, a properly supported metro within a new city region to make it grow coherently and to add to the economic strength of the city would make complete sense and this is a great place to do it.

Deputy Broughan asked a question about the tenders, the first of which, I understand, will be back in February. As for how much have we helped, we have worked hand in glove with the RPA through the entire development. People who are with me in this room have worked extremely hard on every single station and stop to ensure this will be as good a piece of infrastructure as possible. This is not a vanity project, as it has been portrayed, but a very simple, straightforward and well designed piece of infrastructure of high quality in the right place. The RPA has been very responsive to us in this regard.

As for the busway solution being talked about, those who know north Dublin will be aware of the physical constraints that make it impossible to do. One should consider the routes into the city, apart from the port tunnel which serves the port and has its own capacity constraints. Another route is along the Swords road, past the Cat and Cage pub, for example. To get through that point, virtually the entire surrounding area would have to be demolished. Similarly, if one proposed coming through Phibsborough, it simply is not possible to demolish the Botanic Avenue in its entirety or other areas around Phibsborough and Hanlon's Corner. With the best will in the world, buses cannot deliver at the same rate on an unrestrained route in the same way as can a metro. Consequently, even though a low density city will always require a bus infrastructure, they must serve this piece of high capacity infrastructure, rather than continually running in and out of the city.

I refer to the big dig and liaison issues. Last Friday I spent the entire afternoon with the Dublin city manager, Mr. John Tierney, who has established a high level co-ordination group which includes representatives of the city's businesses. In my capacity as county manager, I am part of that group to represent the other counties. As members can imagine, the project will have a greater impact on Fingal than the others. The Transport 21 high level co-ordination group is attended by representatives of the Department of Transport, the city, all the transport companies and me. All of this is being co-ordinated, just as we are co-ordinating with the Louth and Meath county managers.

I welcome Mr. O'Connor and his team. In my previous political career it was my privilege to work with this group of people and to have an input in the endeavours to bring the metro to Dublin North, as well as to work for the overall economic benefit of Fingal, Louth and Meath. The statistics presented today by Mr. O'Connor indicate clearly the metro will have the same success as the Luas on the south side. Luas carries 30 million passengers. The statistics now available and future growth will prove that the metro will carry at least 30 million passengers per year. Mr. O'Connor has made the point that buses are no substitute for a light rail system. I have been an advocate of the metro project for a considerable time and used every opportunity to promote it. As the Chairman indicated, it will be self-financing, irrespective of what the final cost may be. It is not simply an airport connection, as it will be a commuter system for all of the north Dublin region, as well as counties Louth and Meath. I have made this point at every committee meeting here. The issue is much greater than simply getting a couple of thousand of people from aeroplanes to the city centre within 17 minutes, a point that should be made continually.

As for development levies, the county manager did not mention a figure in his presentation. I understand the figure for the contribution would be of the order of between €450 million to €500 million. This point should be made strongly in the context of the overall capital costs of delivering the metro to Swords. Fingal County Council, through the development levy scheme introduced while I was a councillor, will make a significant contribution of approximately €500 million. As for the powers that be and all those who try to knock the metro system for being too dear, although the price is not yet known, the point should be hammered home that a significant contribution will be forthcoming. Moreover, as members have noted, it will be a good, rather than a higgledy-piggledy, development that will be well thought out and well planned. For the benefit of those members who may not know, it should be pointed out that Fingal County Council has put in place a dedicated metro team to plan and prepare for it.

I wish to return to the issue of the park and ride facility at Lissenhall. Mr. Lorigan will forgive me for having bent his ear at a recent social function at which he probably did not want to hear about it again. However, like all members, I believe a temporary park and ride facility would take many cars off the road and allow Deputy O'Dowd to get to work in Leinster House with the least possible hassle.

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy O'Dowd knows I am as concerned about his own personal interests as I am about those of his constituents. I repeat to Mr. Lorigan that with such a temporary project, Fingal County Council could do the country a real service. I used the word "country" because we are discussing the east coast region. Were people able to drive to Lissenhall or Swords, park and get a bus or whatever, it would reduce congestion, CO2 levels and carbon footprints.

Regarding the Louth-Meath hospital issue and the question of people from Drogheda entering the greater Dublin area, the initiative must come from Drogheda Town Council. It has been excluded because of its decision to be part of another authority.

The county manager has made a recommendation.

I am delighted to hear that, as there are parallels in Swords, Balbriggan, Skerries and so on. The initiative must come from the town council.

The Minister refused to include it in the Act.

The Minister stated that, if the town council told him that it would like to join the greater Dublin region, he would happily consider it.

I agree with Deputy Broughan's point on hospitals. The Lissenhall-Bellinstown area would be ideal because everything will be going for it — the M1, the M50, the metro and, I hope, a good bus service. The greatest complaint about Beaumont Hospital that I receive has nothing to do with people sitting on trolleys. Rather, it is a question of how people in Swords get there when there is no direct bus service. Other areas are similarly affected. From the perspective of strategic positioning, the hospital project mentioned by Mr. O'Connor would facilitate easy access. His concept of a university-business hospital is fantastic and I wish him well. It was a privilege to work with him previously and I wish to work with him again as a Deputy.

After watching the DVD, one can understand my enthusiasm and that of Deputy Reilly for being public representatives for Dublin North. One would also be convinced that west Swords should not be included in Dublin West.

Since we are due to conclude this section at 5 p.m., I ask members to be as brief as possible without wishing to curtail them.

It is 5 p.m. now. No matter how quickly I talk——

I ask the Deputy to be as brief as possible.

I will do my best. I welcome Mr. O'Connor and his team — Mr. Michael Lorigan, Mr. Gilbert Power, Mr. P. J. Howell, Ms Rachel Kenny, Ms Ann-Marie Farrelly and Mr. Jim Cleary. Today's presentation on the considerable amount of work undertaken shows a thoughtful, visionary team that has shown the way for other authority areas. I congratulate them in this respect and for their courage and vision to discuss hospitals, a university and putting in place what many people in north Dublin have been complaining about in recent years, namely, houses, schools, jobs and public transport. It is welcome.

I agree with Deputy Kennedy that the metro project must proceed. There can be no argument against it. In terms of costings, on which I have a question, nay sayers should be put to the sword. One reads about many different costings ranging from €1.5 billion to €3 billion, from €6 billion to €12 billion. We need hard facts and clarity, not muddying of the water and allusions to the project as being unaffordable. An infrastructural project of this nature will pay dividends in decades and centuries, not years. People and the Exchequer should consider it in this way. Long-term vision is required. While we all engage in politics, it must be done.

Our guests mentioned how people are unable to enter the country to do business. Are our guests satisfied that Fingal County Council, which now has responsibility for the airport road, has the necessary funding? Is it proper or fair that it, as a local authority, should be saddled with the responsibility and should more central funding be provided? Travel into our country for business purposes is a national infrastructural issue. Are lands reserved along the proposed route? Are there concerns regarding drainage capacity in the greater Swords area? Given the connector issue, is there power capacity for the developments that will flow from the project? As a value for money project and a creator of new jobs, it holds its head up well.

Regarding the links between the metro and the DART, the proposal to get the latter to Balbriggan is key, particularly if there is to be a port established there. The two lines must be linked. Deputy Kennedy mentioned the Luas. To be just a little bit political, the lack of joined up thinking in respect of the Luas was a problem. I hope that mistake will not be repeated. Our guests will not make it, but we must look to central government for funding.

Our guests have not considered the health or life-work balance issue, namely, that people should not need to commute for hours to get to work and leave their children in crèches from 7 a.m. until 7 p.m. They should be able to get to work in a few minutes locally, return home in a reasonable time and maintain their connections with their areas.

The sleeping giant that is Fingal County Council is awake and looking to the future. I thank our guests for this.

Mr. David O’Connor

To answer Deputy Kennedy, it is true that approximately €500 million in development levies can be raised from the projected uses. We have a live planning application for a build cost of approximately €1 billion for the Pavilions. To inform the committee today, we did a quick calculation, but the application is not determined. Were it to be approved, the levy from that development alone for metro north would be €5.8 million. Members may remember the animated segment of our presentation. It was the area's design, a real proposal before the council and on which we have been working with the developer for 18 months to make it as good as possible.

Deputy Reilly mentioned the word "unaffordable". We cannot afford not to invest as discussed. Before asking Mr. Lorigan to discuss the local roads issue, I will address the other matters. As part of its work, the RPA must identify the routes. The great aspect of the proposal is that a large proportion of the land is in public ownership. For example, the Swords bypass, the routes through Dublin Airport and the Ballymun route are all on publicly owned land. Therefore, the land costs are not significant compared to other routes. We have done our best in this regard.

Short-term drainage capability of developments such as, for example, the Pavilions and other immediate works exists, but we must upgrade drainage capacity. Whether by upgrading the existing plant in Swords or by the new greater Dublin strategy involving the capacity of Poolbeg, one or the other will cater for the capacity. The timescales for metro delivery broadly fit with this. It is not an immediate issue. In respect of power capacity, we have worked in close co-operation with the ESB. It is planning that matter. We worked in co-operation to ensure the power for the new terminal is in place and on routes for roads. Mr. Lorigan can inform the committee of this.

Regarding the metro to DART links, the council was careful to ensure the platform did not end and that the metro could continue. It could go to Donabate to link with the DART, to Rush, Lusk or Balbriggan. There is nothing to prevent a coherent transport link between the two services. I ask Mr. Lorigan to speak of the capacity of the local road infrastructure, especially around the airport.

Mr. Michael Lorigan

I will be brief, having regard to the time constraint. We do not have sufficient funds to construct the road network of the airport box. The build cost is in the region of €120 million. It is strategic non-national infrastructure. Provision for national primary infrastructure exists under Transport 21 but there is no provision in the national development plan for projects such as the airport box. We have made submissions to the Government for a measure of funding. We are not behind the door in trying to advance that. One of the major costs in advancing road infrastructure is the cost of land. It can be up to 40% of the cost. In many cases we have aggressively negotiated to get the land at a low price or, in some cases, a nominal price. We have a substantial portion of land from Dublin Airport Authority for advancement of the southern portion of the airport box at a price of £2 million, which coincided with the levy that applied to Pier D at the time. It will come to us at a neutral rate. It is a challenge for us.

We are raising €500 million from the special levy for the metro applied to the metro north economic corridor and we will be raising €500 million from the general development levy for the normal transportation network in the area and the western parkway. We must see how we can advance the financing of that from a borrowing point of view.

Should there be central funding for that, given that the airport is a national issue? Is the delegation satisfied Fingal County Council can carry that on its own?

Mr. Michael Lorigan

The answer is "Yes", we are looking for central funding and will continue to make the case.

It is nice to have the delegation appear today although I did not know what the meeting was about and thought it was about the metro alone. When I came into politics Ms. Rachel Kenny was leaving County Meath. It is nice to see her being part of the overall plan. Some three years ago we were at the tail end of the Celtic tiger when houses were in demand. I have been confused over the past two years when going into housing estate after housing estate in north County Dublin or County Meath. We have a great chance to consolidate what we have. As Deputy Reilly says, bringing out the metro is a must but I am interested in the plan for 20 years from now. This is the second presentation I have heard in the past three months. The other was from Gale International, which is building what the delegation is referring to in South Korea for a new population. It is providing jobs first, the infrastructure next and the people after. I wish the delegation well on that programme. It is the way forward and makes it easier for everyone.

Boston is creating the towns on its outskirts but is also creating employment. It is good to see that the county council in Meath and the delegation are co-operating and we might have a race to see who can build the first city of this type. I wish the delegation well and am delighted to hear that it is going forward in this way. Now is the time to plan and consolidate it. Land may be cheaper and we should proceed with these plans. There is a city being built by Gale International and it may be worthwhile getting a presentation on it. It is very well done.

Does the delegation have any trouble with the National Roads Authority about development off its roundabouts? In County Meath we have run into serious problems with the NRA and I wonder if it is our problem or everyone's problem.

We hope to visit Stockholm shortly to see its transport system. We are interested in the location mentioned. Perhaps we could get some information on this.

I join other members in congratulating the delegation on what is one of the best presentations in my three terms in the Oireachtas. The delegation had its homework done as well as long-term financial forecasting and planning. It was easy to understand the presentation, which was not convoluted. The cost of land had been covered by Deputy Reilly. We are sometimes critical of the management of local authorities for inactivity. That accusation cannot be levelled at the delegation. Perhaps its members could go into a side venture giving courses on presentations.

I wish the delegation well because, in the times we are in, it is a boost to people to note that the delegates have the foresight and guts as well as having all the homework done. All the answers were supplied to the questions asked, which is unusual for a presentation to a committee. The train has left the station and I hope it puffs along.

Mr. David O’Connor

To answer the question on the NRA, it has a mandate to provide the national infrastructure of the road network. Understandably, it is anxious to protect that investment. Nevertheless, the road network is to serve the economic and population needs of the country. It can be simplistic to openly oppose every instance. Everything should be examined on its merits because it is not the case that it will always cause traffic hazards or devaluation of the infrastructure.

We have had a good working relationship with the NRA. It has been helpful to us in planning the airport. The master plan for the airport was created in co-operation with the Dublin Airport Authority, the Rail Procurement Agency, the NRA and Dublin City Council. We found the NRA very good to work with. The reflection for this committee might be that the NRA has a role in protecting national infrastructure but it is the economic life of the country that is being served.

It is crucial that the NRA is brought in if plans are to be put in place by Fingal and Meath county councils because some projects in Meath have been put in jeopardy because of this. We are supposed to be working together and that must be sorted out before we go further.

Mr. David O’Connor

Yes.

That is an issue that Mr. O'Connor could raise briefly so as not to cut in on his colleagues' time. We have similar problems in the west. We thank the delegation for its presentation, which everyone agrees is impressive, and wish it luck. I hope other local authorities take note of this approach. We have similar demands for longer-term thinking and better vision, which has been lacking in this country until now. We are genuinely very pleased with what the delegation has told us today.

Sitting suspended at 5.20 p.m. and resumed at 5.25 p.m.
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