The first item on our agenda is a discussion with representatives of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. I wish to draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I welcome Mr. Tim Hayes, Mr. Martin Nolan and Mr. Vincent Sheehan of Bus Éireann and Mr. Joe Meagher, Mr. Paddy Doherty and Mr. Mick Matthews of Dublin Bus. I will invite Bus Éireann to present its submission first. The committee has received the submissions in advance. While we appreciate all the information contained in them, we would prefer the delegation to deal with the particular issue of the routes which are being curtailed or discontinued as a result of the cutbacks. Much of what is contained in the submission will not need to be discussed in great detail as we can read it later. I invite the delegation to dwell on the impact on the customer and consumer.
Bus Network: Discussion with Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I thank the committee for inviting me to speak on the Deloitte report and the situation facing the company. Over the years we have developed our integrated network very substantially. However, due to the economic downturn our customer numbers have declined. Deloitte in its report pointed out that we are an efficient company. We provide a good network of services in an effective manner. The report acknowledges that outside of our cost saving and cost control programmes, we will need to trim our network in line with demand to bring us back to a more financially stable position.
We have developed our network and increased frequencies on city services by 50% since 2000 when the national development plan was introduced. We have three times more capacity on the commuter routes in and out of Dublin and we have increased passenger numbers by 15%. We have been generally profitable and we have been using some of the funds generated to maintain social services. An ongoing cost control programme is in place which last year saved €6 million which is approximately 4% of the cost base needed to maintain services.
Fewer people are employed in the network. Retail sales are down by 8% and retail sales are important to the company because of the direct correlation between retail sales and people travelling on buses. If retail sales are down then fewer people are travelling. The number of visitors to Ireland has declined by 3% and more so in the west and there are also fewer non-nationals in the country. Overall there has been a decline in the numbers of workers, shoppers, tourists and discretionary travellers using our services. The decline in our numbers has been approximately 5% last year and the projected decline for this year is 5% to 6%. Over two years the demand will be down by 10%.
The company made a profit of €7 million in 2007. Our forecasted operating loss for last year is €9 million. If the issues are not addressed in the future, the loss this year could be as much as €30 million. The main reasons for this decline includes a drop of €8 million in revenue, the loss of the fuel rebate accounts for €10 million, pension costs account for €4 million and the national wage agreement accounts for €5 million.
The information from the Deloitte report is available to the committee. The report finds that Bus Éireann is efficient and that it provides a comprehensive and integrated network. It refers to subvention levels being 12% and that the company is efficient in all the areas covered by the report.
Deloitte examined the options for the company given the downturn in the economy. The slide shows that Deloitte regards the company as efficient with limited scope for savings and that further savings will largely have to come through service rationalisation. The report states:
It will not be possible to make major cost savings on the Bus Éireann network without reducing services.
Cost reduction programmes are in place and further measures are being implemented.
Deloitte make a range of recommendations which are already under way. I refer to the use of double-deck coaches. Real-time information will be in place by mid-2009 which will provide further marketing benefits. We are working to plan for the introduction of integrated ticketing and vending machines. We are planning an increase in information technology.
The Chairman has asked me to talk about services. There is a statutory responsibility on the company, the board and the management and staff, to be in a strong financial position and we have to address the current trends. This is driven by the economic situation and Deloitte has confirmed our approach to be correct. Before we looked at any service cutbacks, we considered all other options. For example, an ongoing cost efficiency programme has been in place for a number of years. Savings last year amounted to twice what would normally be saved. We have saved €6 million on our cost base. We have also put together an additional substantial cost reduction programme which we will discuss with the trade unions next week. We are endeavouring to maximise our revenue through marketing and sales promotions. However, we need to adjust our network while minimising the impact on integrated networks. This point was made in the Deloitte report. It emphasised the importance of the integrated network and highlighted the importance of, for example, people travelling from Crusheen to wherever or from Westport to Dungarvan.
The review of routes will include a reduction in frequency and the focus will be on the poorly supported departures on routes. Peak-time services will be maintained in line with demand.
Regarding the cost effectiveness plan, the company is engaging with the trade unions and providing them with an overview. However, we have not discussed the detail of the routes as we hope to meet the trade unions next week on this matter. This is a very sensitive issue and we must all be conscious that when routes are mentioned, the staff involved need to be the first to be informed and this is particularly the case in a rural area because every one knows who is affected. We plan to meet the trade unions next week and go through the details with them.
Our programme will involve a pay freeze. We are endeavouring to reduce our fleet by 150 buses. This will result in a reduction of approximately 10% which is 320 staff across all grades. It is regrettable and we will try to accomplish this in the most sensitive manner possible. It is associated with the decline in the economy and it is necessary for the company to maintain services to the majority of people.
On the question of the cutbacks on routes, in many cases these will be reductions in frequency in line with any decline in demand. Some rural areas have very little support for buses as the numbers are very small and it is very difficult to justify some of these routes. We will discuss this issue in greater detail with our staff. We have not given this detail to our staff as yet.
The committee respects the fact that Bus Éireann must discuss specific routes with the trade unions. While I would like to hear more details I am prepared to accept that point. However, we need to get some idea of the kinds of routes. Are we to take it in the Bus Éireann case that several of the rural routes will be affected — I accept the point made that if they are not being used it is difficult to justify their existence — or will it be intercity routes? I would like some general breakdown of the kinds of routes. I also seek examples of rural routes that are not being utilised. Without specifying the route it might be possible to give us an example of the kinds of passenger numbers, revenue etc.
Mr. Joe Meagher
We are happy to accept the invitation to attend. A number of the points Mr. Hayes are common to Dublin Bus. The first slide in my presentation gives a summary of passenger numbers. In the first half of the decade we had growth and we were then affected by the Luas and rail developments. Luas is now carrying close to 30 million people in corridors we serve. We returned to growth in 2007 and had planned for further growth in 2008 with the economy continuing to grow. However, the global recession and the recession here hit very suddenly and affected our business. Instead of a projected 152 million the actual figure was 143.5 million, which was a big drop on our projections and also a drop on the previous year and a reversal of the trend.
The second slide contains a summary of recent developments and shows that a number of positive things have been happening. I may return to those later. I highlight the strong development of the bus-Luas tickets. There is considerable co-ordination between the two services at this stage. We will be introducing real-time passenger information on the web and on mobile phones from next year.
I now move to the effect of the recession. Putting it in very simple terms the demand for travel has reduced for all public transport operators. Bus, train and tram have all been affected. Fewer people are travelling to work, shop and socialise. We have a number of examples. Bus loadings to one particular industrial estate have reduced by 50% and others have reduced by somewhat less than that. In certain areas there might have been six busloads leaving between 6.30 a.m. and 7.15 a.m. a year ago and now there are between two and 2.5 busloads. We need to deal with these issues.
Carryings on weekends in January reduced by 12% compared with the previous year. From figures I have heard, retail activity has reduced by even more than that. There is a direct link between the demand for travel and the trends in the wider economy. We are a measure in many ways. We have done many things to try to attract business. On a number of the corridors we have done house drops with free tickets and other promotional activity to try to increase use. While I am sure it has some effect, the person who lost his or her job last week is simply not travelling on the bus this week
What is the impact on the financial performance? The company was profitable from 2000 to 2007 after taking account of the PSO payment, which is one of the lowest for an urban operator in Europe as confirmed by Deloitte. We made a profit of €4.8 million in 2007. We had budgeted for a small profit in 2008, but the outcome was a loss of €9.6 million as a result of the recession. We were down by approximately €11 million on what we expected because of the recession. The projected loss this year will be much worse — €31.5 million — unless action is taken quickly.
We expect to have a revenue loss of €18 million. This time last year when we were planning for 2009 we expected a continued growth in customer numbers. Instead we are now budgeting for a further 5% decrease because of the other economic forecasts for retail activity, unemployment etc. We do not know how accurate that will be — time will tell. We will do everything we can to try to attract business. There is a fuel rebate loss of €22 million. That is an EU-related issue. That goes directly from the bottom line. If the wage increase were paid, the total cost of wage increases this year would be €10.5 million. We got a fare increase that will yield €13 million. However, that is virtually eliminated by the fuel rebate. Along with the other add-on costs the projected loss becomes €31.5 million. There are other cost increases in the area of materials etc. that I have not included.
To deal with the problem we introduced a cost effectiveness plan. Cost reductions will be implemented across every part of the company at all levels. There will be reductions in every area. The pay increase is being deferred. There will be a staff reduction of 290 from 3,828 to 3,538, including 160 drivers with the balance being staff in other areas of the company. There will be a fleet reduction of 10% and work practice changes will be introduced.
Our service changes will reflect the reduced demand as a result of the recession and loss of passengers to Luas and rail services. They are essential to deal with the financial problems. I emphasise we will continue to operate a fleet of more than 1,000 on more than 200 routes. We will continue to provide a service that will be adequate to cater for the demand at both peak and off-peak. It will mean a better use of resources at a time when numbers have decreased. We have a responsibility to do that. The scheduled changes are in line with the approach as recommended by Deloitte.
The Chairman asked about the nature of the changes. Generally speaking it is a reduction of frequency on routes. Some smaller routes are being eliminated. One comes to mind where the average number travelling on the bus is between five and six. There is an alternative much more frequent service within five minutes walk of any point where that service is being provided. In that instance we propose to eliminate the service. There are some examples of that. In all cases reasonable alternatives are available. Where we reduce the frequency, it is more than adequate to cater for demand. A typical change to the frequency would be from ten minutes to approximately 12 to 15 minutes, but still adequate to cater for demand. If numbers are reducing we need to deal with it and make best use of the resources available.
The downturn has been experienced in all parts of the city. There are no select areas where it has not been experienced. Pretty well all corridors are affected to some degree. The corridors where the Luas lines are are affected a bit more because the reduction in numbers has been more extreme.
The Deloitte report was launched recently. I have summarised its findings as best I can in the presentation. Its general findings were that the company is generally as efficient as comparable organisations. It found that operational, engineering and administration costs are in line with comparators. It also found that the public service obligation compensation — the PSO payment we provide to ensure there is a service from Monday to Sunday from early morning to late evening and adequate services at peak times — is very low compared with many other operators. Ours is less than 30%. The report mentioned a number of operators that receive a payment of 50% or even 60%. These findings mean that Dublin Bus is a cost-effective organisation with a good revenue yield.
Another benchmark is to assess the loading on buses. For 2006, before the recession, Imperial College London carried out an assessment of a number of operators across Europe and further afield. This study had a measure for measuring the average load per bus on the network. It considered passengers, vehicles, revenue and kilometres. We were second, beaten to first by a nose and all the rest were behind us. This is a well-used network and the buses are on routes where they are most used.
Deloitte identified several issues in respect of the network which has been built up over years. The city is spread out, with many routes and many legs built up over a long period. Deloitte stated that the network was complex, with too many route legs and with scope for combined scheduling. It considered a particular corridor, to which we will refer later. It suggested more bus priorities, which everyone including the Chairman has been pushing for, and where there could be less variability in journey times. Deloitte highlighted enormous variability in journey times, where a journey of 1 km might take 12 minutes on one day and 40 minutes on another. That such variations can occur is the major problem. We need to give reliable information at intermediate points on the cross city routes so that people know better when buses are coming. We are developing the automatic vehicle location system and real time passenger information will also be of enormous help there.
Regarding more direct routes of the type we have implemented in recent years such as the 128 to the north fringe and the 151 to Adamstown, where there is regular frequency and direct corridors, Deloitte believed this was the way to go. The company supports examining the network and existing corridors and streamlining to simplify the number of routes. I refer to bus stop information and the development of a journey planner. We took the initiative to develop a journey planner for all modes of transport and we plan to launch it in late spring or early summer. If someone wants to travel from Blanchardstown to Blackrock, the person can enter the destination information and will be advised of the best mode of transport.
Deloitte obviously highlighted other service issues, such as city centre congestion and the support for our campaign for a bus gate. We were advised to accelerate the quality bus corridor programme as much as possible and to get priority for buses at traffic lights. That is being built into the automatic vehicle location system that we are developing. We are in discussion with Dublin City Council on this.
Deloitte also referred to the need for demand management and congestion charging, an issue that has been discussed. We should move away from cash. We are conscious that we have a high proportion of cash payers and we seek to move away from that. We have prepared various fare structure proposals that would enable it. It will happen with the introduction of integrated ticketing. That will provide real time passenger information.
I refer to a number of points on the Finglas case study. The route network has five route variations, 40, 40A, 40B, 40C, 40D, built up over time. The proposal is to have two routes to the Finglas area. It is proposed that there will be a reduction of seven buses at peak times and 17 buses at off-peak times to achieve cost efficiencies. This is a reflection of the financial situation in which we are. Deloitte brought the case study to a certain point with us but more work needs to be done and communication is required. No matter how lightly used bus services are, no one in the area served by the bus and no public representative of that area wants to have it taken away. We have come up against that difficulty over the years and have tried to provide the most comprehensive service we could, within the public service obligation envelope we had. In the current economic situation there must be a review. The Deloitte report is timely from that point of view.
I refer to the issues in the immediate future. We must restore financial stability. It is the responsibility of the board and management of Dublin Bus to do so, to propose and implement the best combination of proposals. There must be strategic reform of the route network, examining the structure of routes, as recommended by Deloitte. The key s the continued focus on getting bus priorities. There is an agreed programme with local authorities over the coming years and we are pushing hard on all pressure points. The Minister has come in on that point and this committee, and its report issued last summer, led on the issue of the bus gate.
We must implement an automatic vehicle location system, which will give real time information on mobile phones and on the web. The next step is to provide it on displays at bus stops. This project will be managed by Dublin City Council, to ensure there is an open system. The council will push it ahead as fast as possible. We are on course to deliver the Dublin Bus element of it, with the automatic vehicle location system in operation, next year. The first pilot route will be used this autumn. We must implement the integrated ticketing system. We have a smart card, which was introduced last summer, and all our buses are fitted for the integrated system and the smart card. We are working closely with the project board at the Rail Procurement Agency under its independent chairman on the development of this. We are committed to it. We are also working on the development of information at bus stops with intermediate timings. We have launched a new format, adopting the transport for London format. This has proved very popular and the information format is now on all city centre stops. More work must be done on detail but it has proved to be popular. It sets out information on routes in a clearer way.
This committee has put emphasis on bus transport in Ireland as our first priority, particularly in respect of commuter services to Dublin and Dublin city services. We concentrated much time and effort on the report we produced. It is greatly disappointing to hear the cutbacks proposed by both companies. I recognise the difficulties with reducing numbers, the difficult financial situation and the responsibilities of the management of Dublin Bus to run a company that is solvent but it is disappointing to hear the news announced recently and confirmed today. Both companies have not succeeded in changing this country's car dependency culture and therefore they have not succeeded in popularising the bus. This committee has supported Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus as our primary bus transport companies. We have been most anxious to see the companies develop. The thrust of our report on Dublin Bus suggested more buses on the streets, running more freely and frequently and providing an answer to the congestion problems in Dublin. Will Mr. Hayes provide an example of the routes which will be withdrawn? Is it possible in this exercise to give people living in areas where routes are not being used an opportunity to use or lose their bus service? Notwithstanding that the economic downturn has reduced the number of people using bus services, the good value provided by the bus service in Dublin will surely act as an incentive for people to switch from the car to the bus, especially when oil prices reach their peak.
I put it to Mr. Meagher that Dublin Bus has not made a serious effort to achieve greater bus use in the capital. The company's response to the report of the joint committee was disappointing. We did not hear a word from it about the report and we did not hear it make any serious objection regarding the continuing procrastination by Dublin City Council on the need to reroute traffic from the city centre to facilitate bus transport. The monopoly position of Dublin Bus must be called into question if it is not able to provide a comprehensive service in the capital. While the company has 148 million passengers, this figure is small in comparison with total passenger movements in Dublin.
Will the No. 92 bus service in Dublin continue? Approximately 10% of rail passengers using Heuston Station take the 90, 91 or 92 bus service, whereas 90% of them take the Luas. Given that the Luas line from Heuston to Connolly Station does not offer great possibilities, travelling as it does across O'Connell Street, why do 90% of passengers using Heuston Station use the Luas and only 10% Dublin Bus services? We put this question to representatives of Dublin Bus previously and made suggestions on how to rectify the matter but it appears no action was taken. Surely it is not beyond the possibilities of marketing that Iarnród Éireann trains and Bus Éireann vehicles would feature advertisements for Dublin Bus.
I put it to Mr. Meagher that Dublin Bus is taking the soft option by making 290 people redundant. The company and its unions must have other options for increasing the number of bus passengers. One need only visit College Green this evening to see no more than two or three people on the top deck of Dublin Bus vehicles. I do not accept Mr. Meagher's case that the company cannot increase the number of bus passengers due to the economic downturn.
Mr. Joe Meagher
To make a general point, the Dublin Bus network receives one of the lowest subventions in Europe and has one of the highest loadings per bus in Europe. These figures reflect a very efficient and effective operation by Dublin Bus.
Mr. Meagher covered that issue.
Mr. Joe Meagher
Yes. We have one of the highest loadings in Europe. I and my predecessors have appeared before this committee more than once. In terms of developing and increasing the number of people using the bus service, more effective quality bus corridors are planned. Everybody is supportive of this goal. The Stillorgan corridor offers a model for change, with high frequency and reliability through a high level of priority. We have this priority on the Stillorgan route as far as St. Stephen's Green but not through the city centre. Once such priority is provided, one can secure modal shift. Our programme of increasing the fleet was aimed at achieving this outcome. In 2007, for example, we commenced a number of direct routes, including on the Malahide Road and from Condalkin, with precisely this aim. These routes have done well.
In terms of securing priority for buses, Dublin Bus, with the local authorities, has driven a programme of priorities on all the key corridors. We have also been extremely active and vocal with the local authorities on the need to secure agreement on priority programmes. While it may not have made headlines in the newspapers, Dublin Bus has been engaged in considerable activity with the local authorities to achieve priorities. We have discussed this issue on a number of occasions.
In 2007, we added buses to the fleet and were looking forward to growth. The global recession hit us like everybody else like a thunderbolt. We had planned to expand services, rather than cutting them back. However, we are faced with a financial problem with which we must try to deal in the most effective manner possible. We are introducing a number of measures. All Dublin Bus staff are suffering as no pay award will be forthcoming. We will also change the level of service provided on routes affected by the recession. This is an appropriate response to the problem we have and makes better use of the resources available to us. In parallel with these measures, we are developing on a number of fronts. For example, an automatic vehicle location system will enable customers to receive real time information and an integrated ticketing system is being developed with the project board and Railway Procurement Agency. We are improving information.
Dublin Bus, like everyone else, wants the recession to end quickly to enable the company to move again. As the economy grows, the number of people travelling to work, shopping and socialising will increase and Dublin Bus will be in a position to cater for this growth. We also hope developing areas such as Adamstown and the northern fringe will grow again and that the company will be in an even stronger position to respond to such growth. Nevertheless, the board has a responsibility to maintain financial stability.
While I accept the Chairman's point on the issue of trains, Dublin Bus places significant advertising on the trains and also advertises on radio. As with other companies, we have a budget which we must try to use to best effect. We had a programme of generic corporate advertising to try to attract to the service those who do not use buses. We have invested substantially in household drops offering a free bus ticket to try to reach people who do not use the bus. We have been doing all these things and working very hard in this area. Our advertising this year will be more focused on giving value for money to try to attract more customers and less focused on generic advertising.
When one has a €31.5 million problem arising from a loss of revenue and the loss of the fuel duty rebate, one has responsibility to deal with it. We have to manage our finances. That is basically the position.
What is the position with the 90, 91 and 92 bus routes?
Mr. Joe Meagher
Luas has total priority through to Connolly. Dublin Bus was given priority on the north quays in the summer before last. However, regardless of what we did with the 90 bus service, people were more attracted to the Luas because it was more reliable.
They can also travel free on the Luas in many cases.
Mr. Joe Meagher
I am not aware of that. Dublin Bus is not in competition with the Luas. There is no point in Dublin Bus and the Luas providing parallel services at a cost to the State.
I am not suggesting they do so.
Mr. Joe Meagher
We plan to reduce services significantly on the 90 route, while strengthening services on the 92 route because it provides a different type of service.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I thank the Chairman and members for supporting the promotion of bus services. Bus Éireann has done a great deal in this regard. For example, double deck coaches travel along the Navan Road on the Galway route every 15 minutes at peak times. This was a great success and we provided higher frequency services with bus lanes. It is not all a question of contraction. There are areas of growth and we are chasing those.
We have expanded our network. The current timetable is twice the size of the one from 20 years ago. I have examples to show committee members. I have been involved in Bus Éireann for the past 30 years. In that time we have built up an extensive network. Having built that up over many years, the last thing in the world I want is a curtailment in the network.
To give some indication of the type of services we must examine, first, we must consider load factors across the board where the revenue is low. In many cases a reduction in frequency may be the answer. I was in Cork two weeks ago and it was very quiet. The traffic, which is normally quite bad there, was moving and very few people were shopping. I will not give away any detail without talking to staff but where one has two good frequency routes and a low frequency route sandwiched in between them, if one took out that route it would mean people would have to walk for five minutes to access a good higher frequency service.
On the long distance services, Deloitte referred to the advent of motorways and the difficulty of maintaining secondary locations. The cross-country routes going away from the main centres are the ones more under pressure. There are rural and provincial services where one can reduce frequency. Some routes have very small loads. I refer to four or five people. We will consider all the options available to see whether we can salvage or turn around any of those services. We will consider the amalgamation of routes. We will be innovative in the way we approach the issue. We very much agree with what is contained in the Deloitte report which covers many of those areas.
While we must retrench, as soon as the economy turns around we want to be able to expand again. We have made huge strides, especially in the past seven or eight years, through the national development plan and Government support in Transport 21. Having put in so much effort, the last thing in the world we want is to turn back and curtail services.
I welcome the delegations from Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann and thank them for their submissions. Anything I say will not be a personal criticism of anybody. I respect the integrity and professionalism of the two organisations.
The Deloitte report is like a report card for both of the operations. The report indicates that Bus Éireann's schedule and network design and operation are largely efficient. Having discussed the network, it is evident Bus Éireann interacts a lot with private enterprise, where possible. There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the company and the private sector where they operate in tandem. The private sector takes some Bus Éireann routes when they are available. The company appears to work in an efficient and effective way and it provides choice, in so far as that is possible to the traveller.
The figures from Iarnród Éireann are interesting in that there is no reduction in income to it in the last quarter of 2008, nor has there been a reduction in the number of passengers being carried. Whatever we say about the recession, it does not appear to be affecting Iarnród Éireann in the same way that bus numbers are affected. There may be lessons to be learned from that.
With respect to Dublin Bus, the report is extremely critical of the operation of that company. Taxpayers fund the company to the tune of €85 million per year through the public service obligation. A loss of €80 million is being predicted in the current year. That is a serious situation. The report clearly identifies that on one specific generic route — the Finglas route — to which reference was made, savings of 17% of operational costs could be made. If that was applied to the 14 other routes, through the way Dublin Bus operates, it could save €30 million. The company has not enunciated fully what is outlined in the 11 recommendations, although some of them are referred to.
Dublin Bus is in a dominant monopoly position and one assistant secretary at the Department of Transport found that the company was abusing its dominant position in the marketplace to compete unfairly with the private sector. That is a serious issue. I have a copy of the Government plans from the year 2000 to open up competition and choice in the bus market and to provide a new regulatory system in the greater Dublin area for more buses, competition and choice, which is clearly not happening. The key question to Dublin Bus is how it will address competition. Is it prepared to operate with private bus operators in the city of Dublin who could considerably help the company meet the requirements of the public and to reduce the losses it will incur?
Will Mr. Meagher respond specifically to the recommendation in the Deloitte report on the redeployment of peak-only buses from Harristown, the introduction of intermediate timing points, the elimination of out-of-service running to facilitate driver breaks, and the elimination of routes operating to garages with no apparent customer demand? The above programme of work represents fundamental changes for the company. It should be treated as a major change and transformation programme. I cannot accept that anything Mr. Meagher has said today includes a fundamental, major change to be introduced. He referred to the loss of employees, a cutback in services and at the same time the company is not changing in a fundamental way. That is a severe criticism and I would like to hear Mr. Meagher's response.
Mr. Joe Meagher
On the first point, DART services are down by similar numbers to ours. That is a fact.
The fact is that a letter from the chief executive of Iarnród Éireann makes clear that the numbers and income are not affected in the last quarter of 2008 compared with earlier times. There is no change.
Mr. Joe Meagher
I can tell the Deputy that DART numbers are down.
When Mr. Meagher is chief executive of Iarnród Éireann, I will listen to him speak in that regard.
He used to be chief executive of DART.
But he is not now.
He comes from the DART.
Can we return to the issue?
Mr. Joe Meagher
First, I will deal with the Deloitte report. The primary findings of that report are that Dublin Bus is generally as efficient as comparable organisations. Operational, engineering and administration costs are in line with comparators. Public service obligation compensation is relatively low compared with comparable operations in other countries in Europe. Those are the facts. The main issue raised in the report relates to the network and the focus on Finglas that involves reducing five routes to two and a reduction of seven buses at peak and 17 buses in off-peak. If that proposal were implemented fully, it would mean a considerable diminution in the number of buses and people who are employed.
We are dealing in the first instance with the financial situation and the changes we are making reflect the recession. We are dealing in a responsible way with the financial situation.
With respect, I do not mean to interrupt but that is not the finding of the report on Finglas specifically which states: "Our detailed analysis of the Finglas Corridor indicates that significant cost savings can be achieved following a strategic redesign of services across the whole network that enhances services for the majority of customers." That is not reducing services; it is enhancing them.
That means some people, seniors and vulnerable people will have to walk further to the bus. That is the net impact. We can save €28 million and loads of people around this city will have no bus service and Fine Gael does not seem to give a damn about that.
I do not accept that at all. It is hot air.
Mr. Meagher should be allowed to speak without interruption.
That is the reality. I read the flawed report.
Mr. Meagher without interruption.
I have just returned from Cuba. Bad and all as Dublin Bus might be, it is nothing compared to the service in Cuba.
Mr. Joe Meagher
Dublin Bus is very good.
Sometimes people think it is more of a red organisation than a green one.
Mr. Joe Meagher
The network has been built up over years and reflects the spread-out nature of the city.
The report states it is not following new demographic trends.
Mr. Joe Meagher
No. Our plans have all been developed. We had a network review in 2006 which took full account of all demographic trends, the DTO census and all information available. The plans——
It is a matter of redesigning the network based on the most recent patterns of demographic demand.
Mr. Joe Meagher
That is a very sensible approach. We are adopting it and have been doing so in line with the network review produced by MVA, a very reputable international company. All the information on demographic trends and the DTO model was taken fully into account and we developed a business case for the additional buses, which case we submitted to the Department. It was examined independently and verified and approved for the Department by Goodbody Economic Consultants. We did our business in a very professional way.
Deloitte is basically stating that the existing network is complex because there are many route legs and that now is the time to consider simplifying and streamlining it. We certainly support that. We have tried to do so on several occasions in various areas but nobody in a area where a bus service is provided wants his bus to be taken away. No public representative wants this. We provided a service in line with the public service obligation payment over the years. The recommendation by Deloitte has now been made and we support it.
There is no doubt but that issues will arise if five routes are to be reduced to two but there are issues that must be faced and solutions that must be supported by everybody. The Minister supports the recommendations and we are very anxious to put together a plan to ensure they are implemented.
I welcome the two delegations warmly. Before the meeting started, I tried to move a motion to demand that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, would attend today to listen to the delegates and hear this debate. It is outrageous that he is skulking around Government Buildings and in the Dáil and is not prepared to be here with us. He has a fundamental role to play. It is regrettable that he has been using the Green Party as his mudguard over recent months to protect him from the legitimate anger of workers and commuters. This committee produced its own report on buses, on which I commend the Chairman, but now we find, some months later, that the Minister's action in connection with expenditure on public transport effectively led to his burning and tearing up that report. That is how much consideration he gave to it.
Bearing in mind that we are to meet the author of the Deloitte report in some weeks, I must state it is a flawed document in many respects. It is flawed fundamentally because of the issue that arose in respect of the Finglas corridor. There is merit in having more simplified routes in some areas and for developing the key corridors, but a problem arises in that doing so will leave large areas without a bus service. We have witnessed this in Dublin North-East. Senator Brady and I campaigned a year or so ago to save one of variants of the 31 route, which the company wanted to rationalise because of the small number of people who used it. However, the users were seniors and school-going kids. We worked in co-operation with Mr. Matthews in Dublin Bus to save it. What we were campaigning against highlights one of the problems with the report.
The Deloitte report does not examine how public service obligations operate abroad. Page 9 simply states Dublin Bus receives the lowest subsidy by far by comparison with other operators. The company in Brussels receives a subsidy of 68%, that in Amsterdam receives a subsidy of 62% and that in Lyon, which has a brilliant Luas-type system on which we modelled ours, receives a subsidy of 79%. In other words, the French Government basically pays for the buses of Lyon, yet this is not discussed in the report. The author of the report does not investigate the Luas corridors, which matter was rightly raised by the Chairman. It has been alleged that many people travel for free on the Luas and this is a very interesting point, but the fact is that we must consider the problems that will arise for a bus company when the metro and other fixed-line developments come on stream.
With regard to the cutbacks in Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, why is there no voluntary redundancy scheme? In the case of Dublin Bus, many young workers with families of two or three kids approached me stating they gave up a job six or nine months ago to work for the company. Dublin Bus spent approximately €12,000 training each one and now, nine or ten months later, these staff members are, as they see it, being dismissed arbitrarily. Is that not outrageous and indefensible?
Labour Party councillors and their constituents in the city and nationally are expressing their concern about certain bus routes, some of which I will mention. Is it not the case that the 172, in Deputy Áine Brady's territory, and the 123, 19, 13, 13A, 7, 11A, 45, 121, 122, 77, 77A, 50, 150, 56A, 19A and 15A will all suffer from diminished services? People are concerned that they will have diminished services because of the cutbacks.
Dublin Bus introduced "Euro buses" to supplement service on very busy corridors and they are operated from Harristown. Are they to be withdrawn from Harristown, Phibsborough and Conyngham Road? What will happen at times of peak demand if the "Euro bus" routes are abandoned? This relates to issues I debated with Deputy O'Dowd. Will the Nitelink be cancelled from Monday to Thursday?
Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann were badly damaged by the fuel rebate, as were the private bus operators. They could not have done anything about this as it is the responsibility of the Minister.
A private company operator stated recently this is too good a crisis not to utilise to secure massive cost efficiencies, as management would see them. Are the current difficulties being used to force through work practices that management in both Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann have long wanted to adopt? Are they taking advantage of circumstances? Are up to 600 young men and women being used cruelly as pawns in the struggle over public transport between the companies and the Government?
With regard to management, The Irish Times published an editorial called “Wrong Route”, which looks very like the work of Deputy Cuffe. It seems to be written by somebody in The Irish Times with strong Green sympathies. Is that not extraordinary? It states:
What should happen to executives and board members who decline to use the product of their companies? How can they judge the quality of service being provided, the morale of staff or the need for change [if they do not use the buses themselves]?
Is that not a grievous slur on the management of Dublin Bus? Do any of the senior managers of both companies use the buses?
It has often been said to me by Bus Éireann drivers that the company expanded its senior management team greatly in recent years, from approximately 45 to 120. Although services in Cork, Limerick and Galway are being developed, why was this expansion necessary? For example, I heard an allegation that a senior manager for the network and business planning division of Bus Éireann had been appointed without holding a competition. These are some of the flabby management issues that have emerged.
Mr. Joe Meagher
Regarding staff not being retained and why there is no voluntary severance scheme, leaving staff go is regrettable. When we recruited them, we did so on the basis that we would be using them in expanding services. The world, however, has changed in the past year for everyone and we have to deal with this. There will be 290 job reductions in the company. Of these, 190 are temporary staff; the other 100 will go through voluntary severance arrangements. The funding to keep them on is simply not available. We hope that in a reasonably short period we will be expanding services and recruiting again. We should also be recruiting to deal with natural wastage.
Why are the reductions geared at the most recently trained staff? Why are they not geared across the company?
Mr. Joe Meagher
We do not have funds for major voluntary severance schemes in Dublin Bus. Staff are being laid off across the company in every area. Anyone in a temporary position, no matter what area they are in, will not be reappointed. We do not have the work for them in current circumstances.
Deputy Broughan referred to several routes which will be affected. We will be maintaining the level of service that will be needed to deal with demand. Some euro buses will be coming off routes.
Fewer people are going to work. A person who lost his or her job last week will not be travelling on the bus this week. We have to adapt the level of service to cater for this. On certain routes — the Deputy mentioned the No. 172 bus — only five and six passengers on average are loading. There is an alternative service operating on an adjacent route. While one can maintain that service in good times, it certainly cannot be maintained now. Numbers using the Nitelink service on Monday to Thursday are small and we cannot continue with the cost of providing the service.
The Irish Times recently contained an unfair article in which there were many items that were not true. One was that Dublin Bus senior management did not use its services. Senior management personnel in Dublin Bus use them a heck of a lot.
They are not being ferried around in company cars.
Mr. Joe Meagher
No, they are not.
Mr. Tim Hayes
At a previous committee meeting I made the point that in Europe Ireland had the highest growth rate in bus passenger numbers per kilometre. Ireland is outperforming every other country in Europe in the growth in passenger numbers. This has been built over a number of years, particularly with improvements since the beginning of the NDP. We are not starting from a weak position as we have expanded considerably. However, the economy is down and everyone is affected. If passengers are not going to work or shopping, we are affected. Multinational and UK bus companies have seen the same downturn and are cutting back and leaving workers go. We have a tight financial position and have always used our funding to keep services going. Our first commitment is to keep as many services as possible going within the envelope from the Department.
The Deputy referred to the management team. Somebody is not being fair to us. In the past ten years driver numbers in the company have increased by 40% because services have expanded, while other staff numbers have been reduced by 10%. We invested in some staff for particular reasons such as safety and training. One of my priorities has been to concentrate on safety. We restructured the company, consolidating nine areas into five regions, bringing in professionals such as accountants and engineers to strengthen the management team, while others left. In the overall scheme we did make savings.
I do not understand the Deputy's point about making an appointment without holding a competition. We have always held interviews and there are appointment processes in place. In many cases, we have used independent assessments for external appointments or internal promotions.
Would Mr. Hayes give a job to a person from outside or inside without holding a competition?
Mr. Tim Hayes
We advertise a job inside and, if the skills are not available within, outside the company. We pick the best person. There is a procedure in place for assessing applicants by the human resources department. In some cases, an interview board may have an independent person involved.
I welcome the delegations from Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. One point made by the trade unions in their correspondence with the committee is that, bearing in mind the workforce has substantially increased, there will be an increase in the numbers using buses because workplace parking has become expensive and, with access to credit curtailed, the number of car purchases will decrease. What is the delegation's view on this?
The trade unions also highlight the scope for significant costs savings in Bus Éireann and warn the company to be careful not to undermine the entire integrated network. They find it difficult to see how management can justify a proposal to reduce its staff numbers and fleet by 150 when it should be increasing it. Have the companies assessed any schemes to get people from the car to the bus?
I welcome the presentations by both delegations. They have been before the committee before in better times but today they have been very much upfront, in laying down a comprehensive assessment as to how they will deal with difficult economic circumstances. Other organisations tend to leak information to the public slowly. The upfront approach is better and also more helpful to politicians. Mr. Hayes and his team have always been helpful to Members on local issues concerning bus routes.
The Deloitte report recognised management had succeeded in realigning the company with best practice which will put it in a good position to deal with the downturn. Where possible, management should be sensitive in dealing with services to isolated rural areas. While Mr. Meagher has identified cost cuttings with alternative adjacent routes in Dublin, that is not the case in rural areas. I ask Mr. Hayes, if possible, to try to engage with local community leaders through the political process to ascertain how the cuts he clearly envisages may least burden those who are isolated most. I should welcome any structure or framework his local organisations might have in that regard. I want to pay tribute, not just to the people in head office but also those in the regions and the drivers and inspectors on the ground who work tirelessly to ensure passengers get to their destinations. We must give credit where it is due in that regard. Many of them are deeply pained by the type of cost cutting that will have to take place because they are attuned to the livelihoods of the people they are working with. I know Mr. Hayes shares in this and I should be obliged if he would put some type of structure in place towards helping to collectively find the best solution. He has our best wishes in the efforts he has to make.
I do not know whether to puke or thank people. However, I am sick and tired of listening to Government members saying we must look at cost cutting. I have looked for the last 12 years at every announcement. We saw Government Deputies with Ministers wearing hard hats cutting the ribbon as regards the Sligo services. Other Deputies and Senators along that line did not even know about it. Fair play to Mr. Tim Hayes for the Bus Éireann services from the north west to Dublin Airport. I hesitate to say anything about the north-west initiative on the grounds that the Minister would announce it. It was not going to be released, although he hardly knew where the north-west was. Fair play to Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. They actually have very professional management teams. I, along with the Chairman, went along to see how the Bus Éireann team operates, and I must say that over the years it has provided a very good service.
However, it is quite clear that the cutbacks will affect the way Bus Éireann delivers its services. One area where it has been hoodwinked by the Government is the fuel rebate which I, along with many others, have highlighted. Despite the fact that it fell foul of European law the Minister was saying over 18 months that a mechanism would be put in place so that this rebate could be reinstated. That rebate is gone since last November, for Dublin Bus it was worth up to €12 million and for Bus Éireann, €10 million. That is a major loss to Mr. Hayes's revenue, and on that basis alone, it is quite obvious that services will be cut. That has nothing to do with the downturn in the economy. It is a major decrease. Will Mr. Hayes outline whether this has been made up in any other way by Government?
I am very concerned as regards rural routes. Mr. Hayes said that some would be affected. Not too many have been unaffected in the last ten years. Routes have been cut in that period which were taken up by rural transport initiatives around the country. I am very concerned that these rural routes are, effectively, from town to town. They are not as rural as Mr. Hayes is actually making them out to be.
As regards non-Irish nationals, I should like to know what percentage were using those routes, because I believe it was very high and that the company will take a serious hit in that regard. I notice that 150 buses, or 10% of Bus Éireann's fleet, will probably be mothballed and put into cold storage, along with 100 from Dublin Bus. That is an enormous amount of infrastructure, which the taxpayer has paid for. What will be the average cost of the 250 buses to be mothballed. Will it be like the e-voting machines? Will they be sold off or put into cold storage, and what will the costs be? We do not know how long this initiative will last and it is a national disgrace.
I have one other area of major concern, namely, school transport, which Bus Éireann operates. School transport has gone up from €99 per student four times this year to €300 in less than a year. Does Mr. Hayes find that many people are looking at different ways to send their children to school, because €300 is outrageous. Effectively it is a 203% increase? As the provider of school transport, does he not believe this to be anti-rural, anti-family and exorbitant?
I was very impressed by the management teams in Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. However, if we want to have public transport, there must be a public service obligation and it must be real. The fuel rebate was, in effect, a three-card trick that was pulled on the public transport companies and the private operators which has not been addressed by Government, and I am sick of it.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I shall try to cover all the points raised by members. As regards the efficiency of the company, it was mentioned that there might be other cost savings. Deloitte is very clear as to the fact that ours is an efficient operation. It concedes that we have an ongoing cost-saving programme in place. Before we made any cuts, there were €6 million in savings last year, equivalent to 4% of our cost base, with a more radical cost-saving programme to be introduced as well. The consultants said that despite all that we would still need to make further economies, given the circumstances.
A point was raised as regards advertising and promotion. To summarise, last year we had six radio advertising programmes throughout the country aimed at encouraging people to change from the car to the bus, given the rising fuel costs, parking charges and so forth. We undertook a major campaign aimed at students last autumn, which proved to be very successful. Our revenue rose significantly in that area. We went into more than 30 colleges around the country and it was a comprehensive campaign. We also engaged a good deal in local community third party initiatives aimed at getting people to use buses. We had a shopping campaign in tandem with Athlone shopping centre, for example, and we had programmes running in the summer to test park and ride services to various matches. This was very innovative, using GAA grounds around Dublin such as Naas, Wicklow, etc. We provided extra services to Thomond Park when the new stadium was opened. The initiative there was aimed at persuading more people to travel to rugby matches by bus. We are putting up an extra 200 shelters, which will enable us to provide better information and more comfort for customers.
We plan to have the real time information service in place by the middle of this year. This will be a major marketing initiative, aimed at encouraging people to use buses. Most of our customers go online now for information. Ours is the tenth most used website in the country. For example, if people in Westport want to travel to Dungarvan, they can instantly see all the buses they need to take and where to make the connections, along with the cost of the through fare. For example, last year some 28 people travelled from Westport to Dungarvan, and 28 from there to Ballybofey, on a three or four buses, getting a through ticket in each case.
We have done a great deal to persuade the public to travel more regularly on buses. As I have said, we have been outperforming the rest of Europe in terms of passenger number growth, and this is reflected in the Deloitte report.
I thank Deputy Dooley for his comments and assure him we are aware that we have to be sensitive. I come from a rural area and nobody wants to see services cut. We have excellent staff on the ground who provide services in rural areas and we shall certainly engage in that process. Unfortunately, given the economic situation, certain areas of our activity will have to be adjusted.
Let us take the route from Kilrush to Ennis or from Lettermore to Galway. Those are routes that Mr. Hayes has identified where Bus Éireann is not getting the business. If a service is not being supported, it is difficult to leave it in place. Is there anything the company can do, before taking away services? Can it inform people living in the area that if they will not use the bus, the service will go? Can they be given a chance to use it or lose it? We would encourage such a move. I have no problem with the removal of a bus service when it is simply not being supported. The same applies to Dublin Bus. It is not a charity service we are providing, although there is a public service obligation, which is very important. I ask Bus Éireann to consider this as part of its rationalisation plan.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I agree with that valid point. In my past life in Cork——
Is Mr. Hayes going to stand up to the Government and demand more money to meet the public service obligation?
Is the Deputy going to tell the Government from where it can get the money? That is not a fair question to the chief executive of a State company.
What is happening is quite simple. The company was going to allow cutbacks in rural and city transport services because it had been hoodwinked by the Government. It is not getting the money.
Is it Fine Gael policy to borrow more money to solve the problem? Deputy Feighan cannot have it both ways.
Mr. Hayes to continue without interruption.
Mr. Tim Hayes
We have always worked within tight financial margins. We are grateful for the funding we receive to meet the PSO. In fact, it has increased this year.
The landlord system is back again.
It is again led by Fine Gael.
Mr. Tim Hayes
We have three sources of income for provincial services, namely, State support — the level of which has increased — revenue generated from customer numbers and the generation of profits on commercial routes which we have used to cross-subsidise to the tune of 20% to 25% the loss-making rural services. The levels of the latter two streams have fallen because customer numbers have fallen, which has affected us badly. We must work in the current climate. Everybody will accept that there are limited funds and that we must make the best use of them.
The Deputy also spoke about rural services. I am not aware that we have cut back on them to any great extent in my time and I have been in Bus Éireann for 20 years.
Many rural services have been reduced from being provided seven days to one or two days a week. The rural service is still in place, but it is no longer effective. Let us be honest. Bus Éireann is not providing the rural service it claims. It is not a service, in providing a service one day a week it is just meeting the company's obligation. Am I right in saying this?
Mr. Tim Hayes
I have compared services provided in counties Kerry and Mayo in the past 20 years and the total number has gone up. We provided some low cost rural services five or six years ago. If they were not used, we curtailed them. If we have cut back services from five days to three days a week, it is because the level of support has declined. There has been a greater increase in car ownership in rural areas. The population has not grown in rural areas but in the bigger towns and cities. For example, there might be growth in Carrick-on-Shannon, but there will not be a similar growth rate in rural areas. We are conscious of this and endeavour to maintain services. With the State, we were using the cross-subsidy to keep local services going. We no longer have that benefit because of the economic climate.
On school transport, we cascade most of the vehicles used. The vehicles in question are seven, eight or nine years old and we remove those which are 20 years old. However, they will not be mothballed because they can be put to good use. Otherwise, we would end up buying second-hand vehicles for school services at some stage. We are now able to increase the number and improve the age profile on the school transport side. I accept that rates have increased significantly recently but they did not increase for a number of years before this. There will be further increases. The school transport scheme has been improved and expanded considerably during the years. Compared with what it was ten years ago, it is a far better service with a much better fleet.
Mr. Joe Meagher
Senator Brady made a couple of points. The first was on the car to bus issue. We have done free ticket drops to households on a number of corridors in order to entice commuters to move to buses. There was specific advertising on the radio when fuel prices were high last year in order to get people to move from the car to the bus. We will continue to do this in the best way possible. However, a couple of things have gone against us. Car prices have fallen significantly — second-hand cars are very cheap. When our services have priority, we can do much faster times. It recently has been the case that congestion has reduced, with the result that some people can be attracted back to their cars. We will certainly be working very hard to attract them away from their cars all the time. Ultimately, the way to do this is by offering high frequency and high priority services. That is the proven model.
Buses are not being mothballed. We replace 100 buses in our fleet each year. However, we will not be doing this in 2009.
My question on the fuel rebate scheme was not answered. What effect has it had on the company's bottom line?
Mr. Joe Meagher
A figure of €12 million in our case.
Is that affecting the way the company provides services?
Mr. Joe Meagher
It is one of the elements that leads to a deficit of €31.5 million.
What is the reduction for Bus Éireann?
Mr. Tim Hayes
Some €10 million.
On the PSO, the figure was €36 million in 2007.
Mr. Tim Hayes
In fairness, we have received €41 million this year; therefore, the difference is €5 million.
For Dublin Bus, the reduction is €12 million from a figure of €85 million in 2007. Is that right?
Mr. Joe Meagher
Correct.
We will now hear from Deputies Brady, Kennedy and Cuffe.
How many times do I have to signal to be allowed to speak? I signalled before any of the Deputies mentioned.
I am sorry; the Senator did not.
I did. I was here before Deputy Cuffe arrived. I am a member of the committee.
I am letting Deputy Cuffe speak because of the fact that——
No. This happens at every meeting.
The Senator has not been at many meetings but we will let him go ahead.
I have been occupied by other committee business, as the Chairman well knows.
The Senator is free to go ahead.
He should not be given priority. We have been here since the start of the meeting before Senator Donohoe.
I signalled before the Deputy.
I signalled before the Senator even arrived.
I have four questions for Mr. Meagher. I have much experience in dealing with Dublin Bus, especially with Mr. Gareth Quinn who runs many of the services on the northside of Dublin. I compliment the company on the quality of the responses I have received when I have had reason to contact it.
My first question concerns frequency reduction. When will Dublin Bus be making clear what services will suffer reduced frequency of service? Can Dublin Bus give a guarantee that all possible will be done to ensure Nitelink services are not affected more than is necessary, given that they are relied upon, especially by people working in the city late at night?
With regard to the cutbacks announced, my specific question is whether this is final. Is Dublin Bus confident the package it has put out to its employees and the public will not need to be revised and that further cutbacks or reductions in the bus fleet will not be needed?
My third question concerns subcontracting. I know this is something Bus Éireann identifies as a way of providing further services in the future. Will there be any opportunity to use subcontracting within Dublin Bus, particularly for some of the services that are being lost?
My final question relates to the many reforms outlined in the Deloitte report, which Dublin Bus has indicated its commitment to implement. Was an opportunity missed by not doing this work earlier when the times were good and the economy was doing better? If those reforms had been implemented, surely it would not need to make the cutbacks it now needs to make.
I welcome the delegates. A number of my questions have been asked so I will not go back over them. Given the provision of bus lanes and bus corridors, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann increased efficiencies, especially from commuter belt areas such as the one I represent in north Kildare. There were problems with the use of buses due to the upgrade of the M50, M4 and the N4 Newcastle interchange. Now that this has been completed, we should be re-emphasising the efficiencies arising from the use of bus lanes.
With that in mind, Mr. Meagher and Mr. Hayes referred to marketing. Has thought been given to a commuter belt bus day where, say, a 30% discount would be given to commuters from the commuter belt? This would be used to entice new commuters and let them see that efficiencies are in place because the major roadworks, which were an annoyance and took many people off the buses at the time, are complete. This might bring them back on board.
I compliment both companies on their proposals for the automatic vehicle location, AVL, and real time information. Will they be able to continue with this roll-out given the downturn in the economy? How do they envisage the future position? With regard to bus park and ride facilities, are the companies still in negotiation with the local authorities and Iarnród Éireann on a common approach to such facilities?
The Deloitte report on Dublin Bus stated that network design and scheduling of drivers on buses should be led by the requirements of the passenger and that services should be both integrated and simple. Given that everyone looks after their own bailiwick, I note that when Dublin Bus has reformed commuter belt routes, issues have arisen with regard to the loss of a private bus company in north Kildare. I know Dublin Bus has tried to improve the services but I hope we will maintain as many of those services as possible.
I welcome the Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann representatives. Mr. Meagher referred to the Luas and passengers having a choice, particularly coming from train stations. I do not believe Dublin Bus should be competing with the Luas. As a north side Deputy, I am very envious of south siders. They have the DART service and the Luas, which are excellent services, and they have a reasonably good bus service. Dublin Bus as an organisation should not be endeavouring to overlap and compete against them because I do not think it will win, as its statistics prove.
I am speaking more with regard to Dublin Bus than Bus Éireann because I have more contact and experience with it. I compliment Dublin Bus because, overall, its service has improved and the commitment of the staff and management is there. I know management now responds to public representatives. When one makes contact, one gets an acknowledgement in a reasonably quick time, not necessarily the answer one is seeking but at least the issue is checked out.
I have a few suggestions and criticisms. With regard to increasing Dublin Bus passenger numbers, I made major representations for Dublin Bus to use the tunnel for the 41X service from Swords to the city. In fact, I drove around Swords with officials from the Department of Transport to identify a route that was not in conflict with the private operator, Swords Express. That service is now up and running and is operating well, but it is only a good service in the mornings. Why has Dublin Bus not sought sanction from the Department of Transport to use the port tunnel on the reverse journey from the city to Swords in the evening?
I received a communication today from a person who always uses the 41X. I realise it was snowy and rainy on Monday evening last and there would obviously be a much slower through time from the city to Swords. She got the 5.15 p.m. bus in the city on Monday and arrived in Swords at 8.10 p.m. Yesterday, Tuesday, she decided to use the Swords Express service and left work at the same time. The Swords Express came through the tunnel and she arrived in Swords at 6.05 p.m. That lady tells me she is a lost customer to Dublin Bus unless it seeks that licence from the Department of Transport. She asked me to put pressure on Dublin Bus. I want to ask the Dublin Bus representatives a very direct question. Given that it got its licence to use the tunnel in the morning, why not seek a licence for the evening?
With no disrespect to Senator Brady and Deputy Broughan, I wish to refer to the 128 bus service from Clongriffin on the northern fringe which operates beside the Donaghmede service. Although in future years it will be a massive development, the area currently has about 200 occupied houses, yet it has a bus service every 10 minutes. At the same time, Holywell, beside Swords, has more than 2,000 houses but just has the 142 service operating from Portmarnock through Malahide and then through Holywell. While it now has four services in the morning, there is significant potential for Dublin Bus to increase passenger numbers if it provided a better service to Holywell which has in excess of 2,000 houses. People are driving to Holywell to park their cars because they want to pick up that bus going through the tunnel in the morning, which is causing its own problems with local residents. Dublin Bus does not have an evening service for that area, although the potential numbers exist.
With regard to the 43 service, which serves the Kinsealy to Drynam Hall area, there are nearly 1,000 extra houses but it still has the traditional 43 service which goes through Feltrim and along the Malahide Road. While Dublin Bus talks of declining passenger numbers, there is potential for an increase. I hope it will consider what I am saying in the context of its revised services. The 128 service is wasted. Ten minutes after the morning peak, nobody is on the bus.
Deputy Kennedy is talking about the constituency I represent and is factually incorrect in his assertions.
The points I have made are factually correct. I did not interrupt the Deputy.
The Deputy is misleading the committee.
I am not misleading.
The Deputy is. He knows nothing about Dublin North-East.
I am not misleading the committee. I am asking the same questions the Deputy asked. I simply want the answers to them.
The Deputies should allow Mr. Meagher an opportunity to reply.
I am sure Deputy Kennedy did not take a bus tour of Dublin North-East.
No more than the Deputy.
I ask Deputy Kennedy to address his questions to Mr. Meagher through the Chair.
Further north in County Dublin Balbriggan is a major growth centre but the bus service is poor. The same is true of Skerries. Connectivity with the DART and Drogheda commuter services is required. Clearly, Dublin Bus cannot compete with these services but why is it not providing what I call a nipper bus service from Balbriggan, Skerries, Lusk and Rush? Some 10,000 new residents have moved to Lusk and Rush in recent years. The figures show that such a service would provide a good source of revenue for Dublin Bus.
There is no direct service from anywhere in Dublin to Beaumont Hospital. It requires three separate bus journeys to get there from most places in north Dublin. The provision of a service from Swords to Beaumont Hospital would facilitate many.
Why is it not possible for Dublin Bus to push for the provision of a bus lane from the O2 arena to Butt Bridge? The road is broad enough to accommodate it. All that would be required was a white line. I cannot understand why there is no bus lane along the route.
Mr. Joe Meagher
It is part of the quality bus corridor programme for this year.
Other routes may present significant issues in terms of road width and so on but that is not so in this case. One would expect that this could be done in the morning. Why is Dublin Bus not pushing for it?
Mr. Paddy Doherty
There is a design issue in terms of the effect on the Liffey campshires, the frontage onto the river. We have had discussions with the quality bus network project office on the issue and a design for the route is included in the programme for this year. However, it is not merely a matter of having a white line because there is not as much space as one might assume.
Mr. Joe Meagher
I thank Senator Donohoe for his comments and will pass them on to Mr. Gareth Quinn.
In regard to frequency reductions, the detailed schedules will be issued in the coming weeks. On the question of whether there will be additional cutbacks, we are expecting a further decrease in passenger numbers of 5%, which seems a sensible approach based on the various forecasts available to us. We are hopeful this will be the extent of it and that various measures taken will mean that the recession will flatten out and that we can move forward. If that proves to be the case, there will be no more cutbacks. However, if further major problems arise as a consequence of the recession, we will have to take this on board. We will put together a plan on the basis of the best information we have.
Regarding subcontracting, we subcontract several school services in Dublin and have spoken to the Department about further subcontracting. However, the Dublin Transport Authority, currently being established, will manage the entire area of subcontracting routes and we will be obliged to work within that structure.
Regarding earlier reforms, we spoke a little about this in terms of changing routes, legs of routes and so on. My colleague, Mr. Matthews, was involved in the process of negotiation on the Finglas route, for example, which involved attending meetings in the area. His proposals included several of those subsequently recommended by Deloitte. At the time, however, there was massive opposition to these proposals. The general request from the local representatives was that we seek to maintain the existing service. In general, we have maintained a network of services, maximising the number of off-peak bus services in line with our memorandum of understanding with the Department and extending to as many areas as we possibly can within the envelope of the public service obligation.
I assure Deputy Brady that we intend to continue with the automatic vehicle location system. We are fully committed to its implementation. The Deputy asked about efforts to entice M50 commuters to use the bus service. We intend to engage in a significant level of such activity, including house drops and various forms of local advertising. On several corridors we have given a free ticket to every household. We are also considering running certain day promotions in the coming months to promote business and entice passengers.
I agree with the Deputy in that we do not see ourselves as competing with the Luas service and reforms of our services will keep this very much in mind. We do not consider it appropriate that we should compete with the Luas service, in which a substantial investment has been made. The moves we plan to make in regard to the 90, 91 and 92 bus routes will reflect this.
In regard to the 41X route, we applied for the evening service but approval was not granted.
I apologise for interrupting. To clarify, did Dublin Bus apply to use the tunnel subsequent to publication of the report by Deloitte?
Mr. Joe Meagher
No, we did not apply at that stage.
Dublin Bus applied three years ago. Last year, when it obtained approval for the morning service, I understand it did not reapply for approval for the evening service. I ask again whether it intends to reapply?
Mr. Joe Meagher
We will review the issue.
Mr. Meagher has referred to falling passenger numbers. The numbers will undoubtedly fall if Dublin Bus does not apply for approval for what is a logical route. People want to get home as quickly as possible.
Mr. Joe Meagher
We discussed the issue at the time and the decision was taken to concentrate on getting passengers into the city centre in the morning. We will review the position.
It is as important to get people home from the city in the evening as it to get them there in the morning.
Mr. Joe Meagher
The Deputy made an interesting point regarding the 128 bus route. We introduced this route with the specific purpose of dealing with capacity issues on the Malahide Road, in regard to which it is proving successful, and also to ensure the service was in place before the development at Clongriffin was intensely populated. The point was made many times that as new areas were developed, bus services were put in place only after residents had moved in and purchased two cars per household. As a result, we made a deliberate decision to install our service in a timely fashion and engaged in discussions with the developer regarding facilities for buses and so on. We tried to do it all by the book. We introduced a ten-minute service which benefits the service on the Malahide Road and provides a link with the south of the city in line with the network review and the recommendations made in the Deloitte report. Unfortunately, in the past 12 months or so development in that area has effectively ceased. We expected far more people to be living there at this stage. Nevertheless, take-up of the service is good.
Deputy Kennedy referred to Holywell and the 142 and 43 bus routes.
Holywell has 2,000 houses.
Mr. Joe Meagher
We have made some enhancements to the service. We will be pleased to meet the Deputy to discuss the plans.
I will be pleased to meet Mr. Meagher. I congratulated Dublin Bus on its initiative in Clongriffin. However, the service in Holywell is not adequate. We have been discussing the fall in passenger numbers. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand the difference between 2,000 and 200 houses.
What the Deputy is saying is untrue and inaccurate.
It is true.
The Deputy is talking about Belmayne but he does not even know the area.
I do. My daughter lives there and I am familiar with it.
I have not disparaged the Deputy's constituency. I am aware that an improved bus service is required in Holywell. However, the Deputy should stop talking about my constituency of Dublin North-East.
It has the DART service at Donaghmede.
Some 600 or 700 houses are occupied and others are coming on stream constantly. The Deputy's comments are ridiculous.
I ask Mr. Meagher to respond to Deputy Kennedy's question on Holywell.
Does Dublin Bus intend to provide nipper services to the rail line?
Mr. Joe Meagher
There are difficult financial issues in providing feeder services. We will take the Deputy through it at our meeting.
Will the issue of providing a service to Beaumont Hospital also be addressed?
Mr. Joe Meagher
Yes. That is part of the orbital plan.
I hope we will not continue with the rather adversarial mood that seems to have permeated the committee room this afternoon.
I have been asking questions. The Green Party is supine.
The Deputy was late in hearing the adversarial comments.
We have been welcoming developments for the past 12 years.
Given the manner in which the Labour Party and Fine Gael are sparking off each other, I suggest they have nothing about which to write home. I am here to protect Deputy Cuffe who should proceed.
I am sure I will not be immune to it.
I have a simple message for our guests, which is that reform, rather than cutbacks, is required. It is possible to effect radical reforms that would dramatically reduce the need for cutbacks in services. I hope signs of such reform will be forthcoming from Dublin Bus, in particular. My main concerns lie with it. While I am impressed by changes in both organisations, I am particularly impressed by changes within Bus Éireann such as the development of a web interface, as a result of which one can buy a ticket from Ballina to Bray on-line. It is a credit to the company that such a service is available. I also have been impressed by many of the changes made within it. I have been involved, while wearing a political hat, with the company for almost 20 years and wish the changes could move along a little faster. While I note Mr. Meagher has stated the network has been built over many years, the 2006 MVA report stated clearly that it was inconsistent, as it was good in places but under-resourced in others. Moreover, the Deloitte report stated the bus network had not been redesigned significantly for many years.
My simple message is that we must put a bomb under the network and reform it radically to meet the needs of Dubliners in 2009. I am not convinced the existing bus network reflects people's needs in terms of where they live or wish to go. Although significant changes are required, the company is hamstrung by the hand of history in implementing the changes that must happen. Many services are provided because they have been in place for 50 to 100 years, rather than because they need to be provided in 2009. I take Mr. Meagher's point which I have heard several times that when changes are made, the first protest comes from Oireachtas Members and councillors. However, one must take such radical steps in order that more people will get out of their cars and use the bus and will perceive it as being a reliable, efficient and clear way to get from A to B and back again. That is the message I wish to deliver to our guests.
I have five questions that I wish to put to Dublin Bus. First, when will a decent city bus map be made available? The map available is hard to acquire. The last time I bought one in O'Connell Street, it cost €3 and was the size of a tent. One would not carry it around and it is not easy to use. Anecdotally, one is most likely to find out about the destination of a bus by asking someone at a bus stop on the streets of Dublin. One neither goes to the web nor telephones a low-cost number. One must ask others where a particular bus goes to or comes from. The map on the Powerpoint presentation appears to be an improvement but still has a section on the centre of Dublin that is difficult to read. Travellers in London may make use of a handy-sized map that one can carry around and on which the tube stations and bus routes are visible. It is almost a matter of graphic design. Improvements should be made in this regard.
Second, a decent website would be highly desirable. While it is getting there, it has been left up to the private sector to provide a web interface on which one can state one's location and intended destination. I note the relevant section of the Powerpoint presentation suggests that on the Dublin Bus website one will be asked to search by place or route. People seek a system that will provide them with the route between their location and intended destination. That is what I wish to see. The website on the Powerpoint presentation simply appears to have a different design from the existing site. However, there is a private sector website, on which one places pointers on a Google map to enter one's exact location and one's intended destination. This is what the travelling public wants in 2009. Dublin Bus certainly should provide a service that matches the web interface the private sector has produced.
I have commented several times on my third bugbear, which is that travellers waiting at bus stops wish to know when the bus will depart and do not need to know when the bus may have left the terminus. On a wet Friday morning, when one is at a bus stop without a shelter and trying to make out the number of an approaching bus, one does not wish to know when it may have left the terminus. One wishes to know when it will leave one's stop. I can get such information at bus stops in any city I have visited throughout Europe for the past 20 years. This also should be the case in Dublin for those who travel by bus. I have discussed real-time passenger information with Mr. Meagher previously. It was promised 15 years ago in the Dublin Transportation Initiative's final report in 1994 and I am growing old waiting for it. While I understand Dublin Bus must co-ordinate with the DTI, the DTO, private companies and everyone else, it is not rocket science. Some computer programming is involved and a back office function required but Dublin Bus should be leading this process. It should be making it happen, rather than waiting for everyone to come to an agreement on such matters.
My final issue pertains to the network. The dead hand of history is evident in that the current Dublin Bus map is more a snail trail than a spider's web. Basing one's bus network more on historical evidence than the current state of the city prevents one from attracting many more passengers to the bus service. One needs a spider's web, in which one is not obliged, if one wishes to travel from Dún Laoghaire to Tallaght, to enter the city centre. Either a direct route or a reliable transfer should be available to get to one's destination in a time that is not incomparable with travelling by car. That is what will get people out of cars and make bus services more competitive in 2009. While I acknowledge that Dublin Bus must work with all the other organisations involved, I simply wish to make a plea for it to move a little faster on such issues.
Nationally, two measures are required. Bus service priority is required which is as great an issue for Bus Éireann in places such as Limerick, given the rows between councillors on Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council. We must push ahead through such rows. This also applies to Galway. Bus Éireann needs to be given much higher priority on the approach roads to the M50. It has a great service which it must be able to thread through traffic in the morning. The bus gate in College Green must be provided. There is no excuse in 2009 to have four lanes of car traffic thundering through College Green which should be a magical living room for the city. It should have public transport services and taxis but there is no reason I should be able to drive through it in either direction whenever I so wish. This is a political issue for Dublin City Council and Dublin Bus should be speaking even more loudly on such issues. Moreover, this is an issue for members of all parties who should talk to their councillors and ensure bus services receive the priority they need. I have no doubt Dublin Bus will get more people onto buses if one can leave Parnell Square and get to St. Stephen's Green in 15 minutes, rather than 45 minutes on some days and 15 minutes on others. One requires certainty — that is what the travelling public wants. Bus service priority is required and the bus companies should speak more loudly on the issue. A network review is also required. Dramatic changes must be made in this regard. This message comes through repeatedly. If one can take the Dublin Transportation Office modelling data and map them to the buses available to Dublin Bus, a much better match can be made. My worry is that the bus companies, Dublin Bus in particular, are taking the easy option of making cutbacks. I seek reform from the top down and the bottom up to produce a bus company which would better serve the city's needs.
The Deputy is voting for such cutbacks.
If one can provide a service that is reliable, punctual and efficient——
The Deputy voted for cutbacks.
—— many more can be induced to travel on buses.
The Deputy has disgraced himself and his party.
That was a good contribution from Deputy Cuffe.
I will try to be as brief as possible on the questions I had intended to ask. Obviously, both companies have a responsibility to be efficient and cut costs in the current climate. However, they also have a responsibility to respond to demand. If staff are laid off or buses are sold, mothballed or scrapped, the capacity to deal with the changes in demand and demographics that will occur during the economy's upturn will be undermined.
Since I have not heard anything, I do not know whether Mr. Meagher agrees that, in times of recession, be it officially a matter of months or the likely reality of one year, low paid workers will become more dependent on buses. Given the Taoiseach's announcement yesterday, thousands of public servants will be forced to walk or cycle to work to make ends meet. Perhaps forcing people to do that is the green sting in the pension levy. However, when public servants and the rest of the public start juggling their finances in one or two months, they will try to save money. Second-hand cars might be cheap, but they are expensive to run. While the levy on parking spots may have been a good measure to introduce, the cost of running a car will be higher and more people will travel via bus. Under the proposals outlined today, Dublin Bus will not be able to cater for such demands.
Will the working time directive, which Bus Átha Cliath must introduce, mean that further services will be cut? The current cutbacks will reduce flexibility, substantial over-time and the number of drivers and buses necessary to cater for changes in demand and the changes imposed by the working time directive.
The company is proud of its joint first standing in terms of loading. However, if it amalgamates routes and overloads buses instead of simply reaching a good standard, it will need additional buses. From where will they and their drivers come? Many of the buses serving routes on which there are additional demands will not be available.
The Deloitte report mentions the Finglas route in particular. Given that it is not my area, the route I will discuss is not in my constituency. The report proposes to reduce by seven the number of peak-time buses. If they are running at capacity, the proposal has no logic. If a bus is running at capacity, it should be left alone irrespective of any consideration being given to amalgamating bus routes that do not run at capacity. The same applies to the list of routes to be affected. Quite a number of the buses in question run on routes that run either at or near their capacities. If they are amalgamated, customers will be forced away.
To the witnesses from Bus Éireann, what will be the cost of the 200 bus shelters planned to be built this year?
Mr. Joe Meagher
To address Deputy Cuffe's questions, we are modelling the city bus map on the Transport for London map. We expect to have a fully fledged map available in May.
Does that mean there is no map now?
Mr. Joe Meagher
We have a map. I am referring to an updated map. We are gradually updating our website, which will be significantly different from our previous website. The update will be completed within one month. The multi-modal journey planner, which we plan to launch in May, will provide the services in question. It will incorporate all the modes.
Is that the same journey planner as Bus Éireann's?
Mr. Joe Meagher
Yes. We are including Luas and so on. I accept the comments regarding a passenger at a bus stop wanting to know the time at which a bus will arrive. Real-time passenger information, RTPI, has been around for a long time and we have held discussions on it. For many years, Dublin Bus has pressed for funding in this respect. We received approval in 2006 and have been pushing the matter as hard as possible. The first route will go on trial near the end of the year and we will launch our vehicle monitoring system at all depots in 2010. This will provide information via mobile telephones and the Internet, but the provision of signs at bus stops will be a matter for Dublin City Council. Regarding the network——
Therefore, there are no plans for RTPI at bus stops.
Mr. Joe Meagher
There are, but it is being developed by Dublin City Council.
It will finance RTPI.
Mr. Joe Meagher
Yes, it will deliver RTPI. The Department is of the view that it should be an open platform and provided by an independent body. Otherwise, we would have produced it.
The network review completed by MVA in 2006 took account of a range of data, including the journey time analyses conducted by the Dublin Transportation Office, DTO, and the quality bus network and the DTO model. It set out a timeframe and a plan, the first section of which was to produce a business case for an additional 200 buses. We have operated in line with the plan. The development of an enhanced network of orbital services is one of its elements. There will be a cost and a need for financial support, as would be the case anywhere else because orbital services tend to be peak-time services and have lighter loads at off-peak times.
The plan's first priority was to move the maximum number of people from cars to buses by developing high-frequency services on radial QBCs, identifying high priorities and placing buses in developing areas, for example, the 128 bus route. We follow that recommendation to a T. We have been basing our plans on DTO data. Last year, we contacted the DTO for updated information. The plans are not based on someone's whim. I hope I have covered all the points raised. If I have not, the Deputy should revert to me.
For us, the main issue is how the recession has hit our business. We have a responsibility to deal with this financial problem and we must implement cutbacks to put our financial house in order. We are satisfied the revised frequencies will be adequate to cater for demand. We will watch the situation closely, but there will not be any overloading.
It is incumbent on us to implement the working time directive over a period of time, but it has more to do with staff working hours than services.
Deputy O'Dowd has asked to make a concluding remark. Before he does, I will make my own. A number of years ago, the late Séamus Brennan gave the Stansted slot to Ryanair, which made Ryanair a success and Aer Lingus an even greater success. I will put the same point to the unions. Some years ago, Mr. Richard Branson put 900 trains on UK railways. When I checked with a counterpart this morning, I was told that Mr. Branson has a successful rail network. Does the delegation accept, as Deputy Cuffe noted, that we are not getting the required reforms; there are cutbacks rather than reform? The general public would welcome an opportunity for somebody like Mr. Michael O'Leary to take over, for example, the Blanchardstown or Finglas radial route into the city. Does the delegation accept that the public will not continue to accept the lack of reform?
I may go to Dawson Street and take a ticket for the No. 92, but because it does not come too often, I would take whatever bus brings me to O'Connell Bridge and I must buy another ticket there to bring me to Heuston. In this day and age, how can we expect people to want to take Dublin Bus when it has not made the most fundamental reforms?
I will put this to the unions. It is time for the management of Dublin Bus and its unions to get their act together and provide an efficient commuter service to those wishing to get in and out of the city. My belief is if it does not start to happen fairly soon, there will be a demand for the private sector to be given some of those routes. I am an avid supporter of Dublin Bus, with the drivers being the best ambassadors in the city. If it is not going to change and the company does not get its act together, I do not see any option but for the private sector to be given some of those routes to see if it can do any better.
Mr. Joe Meagher
On the ticket question, there is a range of available tickets. One can buy a travel 90 ticket——
If I go down to the bus stop to get a ticket to Heuston——
Mr. Joe Meagher
In terms of ticket availability, a range of tickets has been built up to suit the customer. We have made many changes in Dublin Bus over the years. It is not by accident, as an urban bus operator, that we have one of the lowest public service obligation payments and one of the highest loadings per bus. Our buses have been well used and run efficiently. Reading through the Deloitte report, that is what it states.
If we are to be criticised in any way, it is because we have tried to provide the most comprehensive service into all the nooks and crannies of Dublin over the years. The Deloitte report has indicated services should be streamlined, and we will go ahead and do this. Everybody wants their own bus service into their own little area, which is the issue.
We have worked very hard to modernise the service. We have an excellent fleet and drivers. The fleet is of a high standard and highly maintained. We are moving forward on all the elements. We would have liked to have had automatic real time passenger information sooner but there are issues outside our control with regard to the integrated ticketing system. We are very much progressed on the smart card and we have our own version. All of our buses have been fitted for smart cards. We are moving forward on all these issues.
Our network and all the proposals we have put forward over the years have been based on solid analysis, with independent experts helping out. Anything done by this company is benchmarked well against international operators and companies of our size. Many of the operators in the UK and elsewhere relate to services provided by private operators. We benchmark with lower subvention, higher loadings and generally lower fares. We must deal with a congestion problem that is more difficult than in most cities. On balance, there is much good performance by Dublin Bus.
The summary of the Finglas case is very clear. It indicates there are some very lightly loaded services coming from Finglas, although there are some very heavily loaded examples as well. One of the key issues is the bunching of buses together. Nobody is losing a bus in that case but the bus is running and nobody is on it. That is a question of organisation. It is not that Maggie Murphy cannot get a bus but that nobody is getting on a bus that is running.
The other part of the argument I put forward earlier is that Fianna Fáil, as part of Government in 2000, wanted to open the bus market to competition in Dublin but nothing has happened. I do not blame Dublin Bus for everything. The Government has failed to act and insist on choice. Deputy Cuffe made the fair point of putting consumers at the centre of the issue and getting people on buses. There are far more private buses nationally than are owned by Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. These are not being used at all and it seems the policy, as I outlined earlier, is to put them out of business when they have an operation.
The following comment relates to Bus Éireann. Matthews Coaches operates in its area of operation in an efficient and effective manner. It provides new routes for people living in newly developed areas, without a subvention from the State. It is putting Iarnród Éireann under pressure because it is taking on customers who would normally travel on the train. If there is dynamic leadership in private or public enterprise, it will change the picture when it is consumer-led.
I hope the answer to the next question is a definite "No". It has been said to me — it is a rumour — that there may be new buses purchased by either Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann which have never been used and are sitting in garages somewhere. Is that the case?
I will allow a very brief comment from Deputy Feighan.
Despite school transport levels increasing by 2% or 3% last year, it was stated that it would increase this year. Is that the responsibility of Dublin Bus or the Department? What increases are proposed and when will it come about?
I do not deny that some of the issues raised by Deputy Cuffe on information are very important. In 1991, when we both joined Dublin City Council, we were being promised real time information at every bus stop. Some 18 years later, we still do not have it. In London, although the locals seemed to understand the bus network, students or visitors such as myself never seemed to be able to understand it.
The fundamental points made by the chief executive of Dublin Bus are profound with regard to support from Government for a good public transport network. Such a network does not come cheap and must be worked at. In the run up to the 2007 election, the Labour Party put forward an opposing view in that we asked the company to dramatically expand and greatly reduce fares. We were looking at such a reduced fare as a €1 basic fare, which would be the driver of getting people out of cars. We knew that would mean a higher PSO. Could this be done?
The ideal would be a free bus system or being able to hop on and off buses as we wanted all over this city. Visitors from Galway or elsewhere could hop on a few buses and head up to Heuston. That would be the ideal system and would surely bring about a dramatic change in the amount of people coming through the canal cordon in the morning in cars. Could that be done with the policies and attitude of this Government, with the Greens an essential cog in keeping the operation in existence?
The Chairman spoke of threatening the company and workers sitting behind us. The late Séamus Brennan wanted to threaten the company with giving a quadrant of the city to private operators but at the end of the day this will amount to greatly reduced conditions for drivers and workers. People will come in and do a few hours in the morning peak before hanging around for hours and then going back on again. We had Ryanair representatives and the man himself before us and we know how he operates. There is no doubt that the Ryanair model could be used in road transport, and we know private operators who use it. Ultimately, it is not good for either workers or commuters.
Mr. Joe Meagher
With regard to bunching, we have a very high frequency service on a number of corridors. At peak it is every minute in Blanchardstown, every 1.3 minutes in Tallaght, every 1.1 minute in Stillorgan, every minute in Malahide and every 1.2 minutes in Lucan. In this situation buses will come together.
No new buses are idle. The most important point I want to make concerns contractors. Dublin Bus employs 22 contractors on school services. It was mentioned that Dublin Bus has a policy to run off people. This is absolutely wrong. A legal issue is raised so I am constrained in what I say but I want to make it absolutely clear that Dublin Bus did not take any action to cause any operator to go off the road.
That is not the point I made. I do not want to stray into a legal area. My point is that the assistant secretary of the Department of Transport wrote a letter to Dublin Bus stating he believed it was abusing its dominant position in the marketplace with regard to the operation of private buses with a licence in Dublin.
Mr. Joe Meagher
I want to make our position very clear.
Mr. Tim Hayes
Mention was made of real time information and we are trialing this at present. It is available to a limited number of people on the web and on mobile telephones. When one goes to a stop one can get information on when the next bus will arrive on one's mobile. We also have a screen in Busáras which shows arrival times. We will roll out this service in the near future. This is the first time we have had nationwide real time information for a bus operator and it is quite a challenge for us because it requires nationwide coverage. With regard to timetables, the Deloitte report mentions that we have a good network with clockface timetables as far as possible. I can discuss this later if anybody wishes to speak with me about it.
Services in Balbriggan were mentioned. We run a 20 minute high frequency service from Balbriggan to Dublin throughout the day. The service is affected because it is on the old road but we still maintain a 20 minute service. Our service competitor operates on the motorway and there is a tendency for people to go along the motorway. This affects the frequency one can maintain in places such as Balbriggan.
As I pointed out, our network has changed considerably. Some services have been curtailed and others have been developed. We have introduced orbital services and tested markets such as these over the years. Some have succeeded and some have not. I agree with the bus priority measures and I thank committee members for their support on this, particularly in places such as Limerick where we introduced a high-frequency service and if we had bus lanes it would be more attractive. In fairness to the Chairman he understands what happened in Doughiska. We received much support in Galway and introduced a bus lane and high-frequency service. We were extremely pleased and it was one of the most successful services we introduced and the numbers increased rapidly.
A query was raised about bus shelters. The investment in bus shelters is approximately €4 million but this will be covered by advertising sales. New bus shelters will provide better facilities such as customer information because they will have a display. It will not be a long-term financial burden on the company. We may invest some money in the short term but it will come back to us.
Are Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann responsible for providing bus shelters or is it the local authorities?
Mr. Tim Hayes
We have provided the bus shelters for the past 30 years.
What about Dublin?
I understand that Adshel or another advertising company dictates the location of bus shelters and when they are installed.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I have been involved in bus shelters since I came into the company 30 years ago. We tender out the work with regard to bus shelters and Adshel does much of the work. We identify the locations. Obviously, sufficient demand must exist and advertising space must be sold. Adshel funds the shelters and, more important, it covers any liabilities and maintenance. Our experience at putting up our own shelters with local authorities, which I did many years ago, was that it did not work out very well. This has worked very effectively and it has funded shelters throughout the country. If people want to place a bus shelter on Patrick's Street, Eyre Square or a city centre we state that a bus shelter must also be placed at the edge of the city or in a rural area such as Gort. We try to ensure a spread through a package such as this.
Surely a bus shelter is for the convenience of passengers.
Mr. Tim Hayes
Yes.
It should not be driven by revenue. Obviously, a bus shelter in a built-up area commands better revenue from advertisers. Bus shelters are more needed in exposed rural areas.
Mr. Tim Hayes
We trade the good areas for the other locations. However, we found when we put up some of our own shelters we did not have the income from advertising to cover the cost of maintaining them. Unfortunately, liability was a big factor and this is one reason we pulled out of it.
A bus shelter is essential to increasing passenger numbers. Galway City Council wants to get into the business even though it does not have a bob. What is the situation in Dublin? Is Dublin Bus or the local authority responsible?
Mr. Joe Meagher
We do it. It is the same basic arrangement as in Bus Éireann. We have well over 1,200 bus shelters and the number grows every year by between 40 and 50.
Will each organisation confirm this in writing to the committee and that it is their intention to continue with this? Will they also provide us with plans on the development of further bus shelters in Dublin and throughout the country?
I asked a question on school transport charges.
Mr. Tim Hayes
I was speaking about this school year until June. I know the charges increased at the end of last year and the start of this year. I have no knowledge of what will happen. Obviously, everybody faces financial pressure. The prices increased significantly last year. I do not have the exact rate. They had not increased for quite a number of years prior to this.
We thank both delegations for their presentations. We regret the cutbacks but we would like the witnesses to return later in the year for more discussion on the reforms suggested here today. It is hoped that we will see an increase in the number of bus passengers as we go through this difficult year.