JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 4 Nov 2009

College Green Bus Gate: Discussion with Dublin City Council and Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

Chairman

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with Dublin City Council and Dublin Chamber of Commerce about the bus gate at Trinity College. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome from Dublin City Council Mr. John Tierney, Dublin city manager; Mr. Michael Phillips, director of traffic and city engineer; and Mr. Brendan O'Brien, head of technical services. From Dublin Chamber of Commerce I welcome Mr. Peter Brennan, vice president; Mr. Aebhric McGibney, director of policy; and Ms Catherine McCabe, policy executive. I propose that each group make a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. We will take into account the change in direction of evening traffic since we scheduled this meeting. I invite the Dublin Chamber of Commerce to make its submission first, to be followed by the city manager.

Mr. Peter Brennan

With the Chairman's permission, it might be better if the city manager explained the council's decision, to which we can respond. However, we can go first, if the Chairman wishes.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I agree that it might be better to hear the up-to-date position first.

Mr. John Tierney

We were last here on 22 April before the city council took its final decision. We explained our proposals in respect of bus service priority and the recommended option which the council passed in a very tight vote in May. We also discussed access routes for cars and so on. Priority was introduced on 27 July with a provision for a six month review. The matter was raised again under notice of motion in September and discussed with some gusto at the September council meeting at which I was asked to bring a further report to the November meeting. Rather than make a presentation today, because we explained the last day how the system of priority would work, we have circulated the report among the committee's members. We have provided for approximately 13,080 free parking spaces from 18 November to 27 December. There will be a large marketing and events programme in the city centre. There is also provision for the temporary lifting of the evening restriction from 18 November to 15 January 2010. The review will be postponed from January or February to May or June 2010.

Mr. Peter Brennan

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce welcomes this decision. We have been working with the council and other representative organisations throughout the city to make sure the city is marketed and that everyone knows it is open for business. We particularly welcome the flexibility the councillors displayed last Monday. This gives retailers essential breathing space. Some retailers make 40% to 50% of their revenue for the entire year in that six week period. The flexibility displayed following representations is important for jobs and the future of some of these retailers. The bus gate will be restored in January, a move we support. We also note that the review will take place in May, to which we agreed when the original proposal was made.

This demonstrates that the bus gate is a crucial part of the overall public transport system in the city. In the coming months there will be gradual but significant improvements as buses start to roll over Macken Street Bridge. There will also be integrated ticketing, live information at bus stops and the chamber and its members will market the city as being open for retail and business. We will have a much more attractive city which will draw people into the centre. The chamber's key message has always been that the city must be open for business. This must be communicated loud and long in every possible forum. We will provide support, as long as it is open, including the bus gate.

Chairman

The bus gate struck me as being a huge success from the point of view of public transport. Dublin Bus gave clear evidence to us that it had been a huge success in making bus transport services through the city centre operate efficiently, improving frequency and encouraging people to take the bus. It is possible to access city centre car parks provided those who want to take their car into the city centre are aware of the redirection. However, there is no great difficulty in finding the correct route. It is a question of a change in mindset and people being properly informed to ensure those who want to come into the city centre can still do so and that the disadvantage that accrues is far outweighed by the advantage to the general public in being able to use public transport.

Mr. Peter Brennan

While we share those objectives, we must ensure a balance in this period because of the recession in the retail sector, on the south side of the city in particular. This has been taken into account on a temporary basis for six or seven weeks. We support the city council and transport agencies in putting in place a comprehensive public transport solution for the city. We are proactive in our support for it in the Transport 21 fora. There is full access to every car park. Some of the car parks have very good capacity, even on Thursday nights, but with better communication, the shopper, the commuter and the business executive will go in and out of the city because they are getting better information. That is what is planned. I hope Macken Street Bridge will take a lot of traffic from the main thoroughfare in the city.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Why then were car park charges allowed to go up to as much as €12 for a couple of hours? I was on Henry Street on a Sunday afternoon and when I came back to my car, I had to pay €12. Why was that allowed to happen in our city shopping areas?

Mr. Peter Brennan

We are the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, not the Government. That was a commercial decision taken by a car park operator.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I did not receive any reports from Dublin Chamber of Commerce stating this should not be done. I remember when I was leader of the city council, when the Sunday parking scheme was introduced, there was not a cheep from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. At the time I did not think I was worried because Dublin Chamber of Commerce sat there while the shopping centre in Blanchardstown was developed, which is now due to double in size to 130,000 sq.m., with Pavilions due to increase to the size of the centre in Blanchardstown. Mr. Reilly's other development, Dundrum Shopping Centre, is due to expand also. Northside Shopping Centre is also to increase to the size of the centre in Blanchardstown. We fought it on planning grounds, although we welcome the creation of jobs in the constituency. Was the Dublin Chamber of Commerce asleep at the wheel when the city centre started to decline? It should have been watching all of these factors more closely.

Mr. Peter Brennan

I do not accept that. Dublin city centre is vibrant.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Look at the figures the Dublin City Centre Business Association gave me. The rates of decline are appalling. We have seen a decline in August of 10% to 29% in footfall, with a figure of 10% to 25% in September. The graph falls off the page. Was there not a fundamental event with which the bus gate interacted?

On the broader issue, the city centre has been under threat from massive developments in the other three counties, while we have to build metro north at the same time. The city manager is the point man. He is responsible for managing the situation with metro north. When we compiled a report on the bus gate at this committee, I did not sign it because when works starts on metro north, when Daniel O'Connell's statue is removed and 8,000 trucks are trundling up and down the River Liffey every day, there is a serious fear that the city centre will be sterilised, as happened when they were building the Luas in Smithfield. The city centre will be sterilised, the Henry Street area will be stymied and there will be a crisis for retail businesses in the north city centre.

The position in south city centre, with which we are familiar because we work beside it, is also a matter of concern. I understand Henry Street has a bigger rent roll per capita than Grafton Street and that many companies have left Grafton Street. In that context, Dublin Chamber of Commerce should have been more careful; it should at least have had the Macken Street Bridge open and been monitoring this to ensure we did not end up with a situation similar to that in Eyre Square, only much worse. I have met businessmen who are frightened about what is going to happen.

In the context of improving measures for pedestrians and public transport, Paddy Doherty is an excellent chief of operations. He sent us good diagrams showing how buses had speeded up dramatically through the bus gate but we must watch this carefully or we might have a serious problem.

Chairman

I would like to ask about Macken Street Bridge and the other developments coming on stream. I welcome the statement that Dublin Chamber of Commerce is anxious to see a comprehensive public transport system but on the last occasion it appeared here, it stated this was predicated on having a comprehensive public transport system in place before cars were discouraged from entering the city. Will the delegation confirm that it is now happy to discourage cars from coming into the city as this new initiative is being brought into place? If we do not take some tough action about access to the city, we will never have the comprehensive public transport system we all desire.

Mr. Peter Brennan

I can guarantee that Dublin Chamber of Commerce is not asleep at the wheel. We listen to our members all the time, including retailers. About 80% of our members are not in the retail sector but transfer and work across the city. We are acutely aware of what is happening. There is a deep recession and retail sales have fallen by 20%. In some parts of the south city centre, around Grafton Street, the falls are much greater, due to a combination of high rents and people's purchasing power.

The bus gate was opened at a time when the entire business of the city was in trouble. We know there is a problem, we are acutely aware of it. We met the Department of Finance on Monday as part of our budget submission to say what should be done to help the city centre and the wider business community we represent. We are acutely aware of what is going on.

We have worked closely with the Minister for Transport and Transport 21 to press for essential infrastructure such as Macken Street Bridge, integrated ticketing, live transport information and improved signage. It is about to happen; it will all be done within the next 12 months. In a year's time, if a person is coming into the city centre by car, he or she will be directed to car parks. What is outside of my control is where the consumer will choose to go. Our job is to make sure the city is seen as open for business.

I will not agree, however, with the Chairman and state we are happy to discourage cars from entering the city. Such a statement went unrefuted earlier this year and people got the impression there was a ban on cars in the city centre. We do not agree with that at this time. When all these other very important measures happen, it is inevitable that over time the car will be squeezed out of the city. When metro north, the Luas works and the DART interconnector work get under way about two years hence, the city centre will have to be traffic calmed. We accept that. However, at this point we do not have the supporting infrastructure to tell people not to come into the city by car. We believe people should have the choice to come into the city by car.

Mr. John Tierney

On the issue of the Macken Street bridge, that is scheduled to open on 10 December. To return to the point about co-operation and so forth in the context of what will happen with the major works, I believe we covered this on the previous occasion we met the committee. One of the first things we did on the city council after the announcement of Transport 21 was establish a Transport 21 implementation group. I am delighted the Dublin Chamber of Commerce and the Dublin City Centre Business Association are members of that group and actively participate in the difficult decisions that will have to be taken about the master programming, contingency planning and so forth associated with the major works that will take place as part of Transport 21. There is an absolute awareness among all the members of that group that keeping the city open for business during the period of Transport 21 is crucial to having a viable city centre after the completion of the works. We have put a project office in place to work closely on this with all the agencies. That is the absolute focus of our work. Another thing we have done as part of that work, from within our own resources, is traffic modelling in terms of assisting with the traffic modelling that will occur as part of those schemes.

This debate tends to get polarised. Immediately after the decision was taken by the council the media ran with the banner headline of a car ban. That was not the case. A different traffic management arrangement was being put in place to allow the bus to perform better and to improve the pedestrian and cyclist experience, but access to all the car parks and the facilities was maintained as part of that process. There were changes and, as is natural with changes, people develop different habits until they get used to——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Was it not difficult in the evenings?

Mr. John Tierney

——the new arrangements. What we have done is come up with a short-term proposal but with the long-term realisation of the long-term benefits of the bus gate, ensuring bus priority and ensuring it is reintroduced. We are in negotiations with the different business organisations. One of the reasons we conducted the free parking initiative around Christmas was as a boost to the city centre as part of the competition issue that exists at present in terms of all facilities trying to do well in the recession. That will probably have a greater benefit as a boost to business over Christmas. The committee knows our position regarding the bus priority from the report itself.

Deputy Noel Ahern

The bus gate is a decision of the city council but I was disappointed with the decision the other night. The chamber has always been very constructive in looking at the big picture and the way forward but, unfortunately, other business groups reacted strangely. I hate to be in the position of trying to stand up for the media because I spend half my life criticising them but it might not have been just the media that was talking about the city being closed down and car bans. Some of the people in the DCBA might have whinged too much or over-sold their grievance. Certainly, one felt that one was almost not welcome on Grafton Street unless one drove into the city in one's Mercedes and that the rest of us mere north-siders who might come in on the bus should really be elsewhere. Business groups must watch how they sell their message and concern. In this case the story and the whinge was over-sold.

From what I hear about the events of the other night, pressure was obviously applied. It is unfortunate that many new young, mainly Labour Party councillors buckled under business pressure or perhaps they were instructed from on high to change——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

They have an interest in jobs.

Deputy Noel Ahern

Jobs is a different matter. Was the Deputy at the meeting I attended a few days ago in Fingal when some of the business representatives spoke about the unfair competitive advantage the city now has with the rates revaluation? Blanchardstown and Swords will be under enormous pressure and subject to unfair competition because their rates will increase while the city's rates valuation will not come for years. Business groups can be very good at stressing the positives or the negatives as they see them.

I note what the city manager is doing with the offer on parking spaces. Did the private sector make any similar offer of free or reduced rate parking over Christmas? It is strange he is giving that incentive over the busy days of the week. If I drove in on a Tuesday or Wednesday, I would have to pay for parking whereas if I drove in on a Thursday or Friday, I would get free parking. Perhaps he would clarify that.

With regard to the future, I am aware from the time I was in office and wore a different hat that the chamber has been very constructive in working with the city council and the Government, specifically the Minister for Transport, on the big infrastructure projects for the future. I hope we can recover from this episode because there will be problems in the future if we go ahead with the metro and I am concerned about some people's capabilities or capacity to cope with a big issue if they freak out about something relatively small like the bus gate. Could the city manager tell me about the court case? Was it threatened or was it started? Who started it? We must continue looking at the big picture if we are to have the metro and other projects. I hope they will all happen. We simply must keep our nerve, work together and be constructive. People cannot keep running off to the courts if they are not getting everything their way.

We must try to sell the positives of the city to attract people into it. We are told that savings have rocketed and that the Irish have become the best savers in Europe. A few years ago we were blowing all our money.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Instead, we are paying off our bills.

Deputy Noel Ahern

No, we are becoming great savers. Somebody has money although I am not sure who it is. Whether they come into the city in a Mercedes or not, the city should be targeting the people who have money and trying to get them to open their wallets. There is money out there. We are all aware of the recession but we must try to work together, put the best foot forward and stop getting too scared when potential problems arise.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I do not wish to get into a political battle between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil.

Chairman

There will be great fun when the Labour Party and Fine Gael get together on some of these issues.

Deputy Frank Feighan

You will not be worrying about bus gates. It is good that there is consultation between the two bodies. Before I became involved in politics I was president of my local chamber of commerce and, believe me, there is less politics in the political arena than there was in the chamber of commerce. It blooded me for real politics.

With regard to the bus gate, we are worried about parking spaces and the cost of parking. In my area of Roscommon and Leitrim there are free parking spaces and it offers very good value as well.

Chairman

And obviously very few taxis.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I am glad there has been consultation between the traders and the city council. I compliment the city manager on the signage when one travels into the city. It is excellent for letting people know where they must turn left or if they cannot drive into the area. The council should use it again. It is very colourful and one cannot miss it. There is a recommendation that it should be used. Business is very tough but, in consultation with the city council, the chamber of commerce should ensure there is more footfall. One thing that has been missed is that the chamber of commerce represents its own sectional interests. It is not elected by the people to make these decisions, but it works closely with the city council. It is a matter for the elected representatives of the city, which has been voted on. It is nice to see that both bodies have come together to iron out any difficulties. That is the way it should be done. As the former Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, said, it should not be teased out in the newspapers. The press has a lot to answer for in that regard. When one sees a story about a ban on cars, people will think there is such a ban in the city centre. Perhaps this committee could do something about highlighting those inadequacies in the national media.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I disagreed with my colleague, Deputy Noel Ahern, when we discussed the matter earlier. Many of the businesses speaking out against the bus gate have been in the retail sector for decades. They are serious and committed retailers. It is a good plan in theory, but in practice it was a bit premature. The compromise the council has reached is both sensible and necessary. I would like to have some details on the free parking scheme.

Mr. John Tierney

I am not sure which Deputy referred to the concerns about pressure. The business sector has a right to represent its point of view as part of the overall equation. We listen to such viewpoints from all interested parties who contribute to a particular debate, and local councillors would have taken them into the equation before coming up with a decision. The rates revaluation was mentioned, but we do not have any control over when that occurs. However, it should be implemented in the city by 2013. It must be remembered that a rebalancing is going on within the rates system as part of that. There is no increase for the local authority from it.

Deputy Noel Ahern

My point was that retailers in Fingal see themselves as being seriously disadvantaged in the short term and that Dublin city retailers will have a huge competitive advantage pending the chamber's review, which might be four or five years away. Does Mr. Tierney get the point?

Mr. John Tierney

Yes.

Deputy Noel Ahern

I am saying that they have an advantage, as seen by their own colleagues out the road.

Mr. John Tierney

I accept that, but the roll-out of the revaluation will take a length of time and we have no control over that.

Deputy Noel Ahern

I know that.

Mr. John Tierney

As to why we did the free parking at that particular time, it is because that is the peak shopping time. Those are currently the hours of greatest concern to the business sector. In the report I made to the city council, I tried to reflect accurately the information that was given to us up to then. We made the point that it is virtually impossible at this stage to disaggregate the data and say that the bus priority has accelerated any decline in city centre activity. We would argue that the wider economic situation is a much greater part of the problem at the moment and the bus priority is getting caught up in that debate. I had many discussions with the elected members and opinions were divided. On the one hand, there was a serious worry about the current economic situation and the need to ensure that there was no ambiguity about access to the city centre over the Christmas period. Every councillor wants to protect business and jobs because one leads to the other. Equally, there was a real concern that the benefits of the bus priority would not be lost. That is why 35 eventually voted for the proposal and 11 voted against. It will be back in on 15 January.

Deputy Noel Ahern

On parking, would it not be an idea to give an incentive to come in on the quiet days to spread the load, so to speak? Coming near to Christmas, people will presumably come in on the busy days anyway.

Mr. John Tierney

We had to achieve a balance in terms of what we could do and what was affordable. This was considered to be the best option arising from the consultations.

Deputy Noel Ahern

Are private parking operators doing anything similar?

Mr. John Tierney

We do not control what they charge.

Deputy Noel Ahern

I know that.

Mr. John Tierney

However, we hope that what we have done is an incentive to look at the whole charging mechanism. As regards big infrastructure, I agree with the Deputy that there are tougher times down the road. That is why we have put the different mechanisms in place with the different representative associations and the public transport agencies to try to get over that issue. In my view the court cases are not relevant. If they go ahead we will fight them and are happy to do so.

I accept Deputy Feighan's comments on signage. We will look at this again over the next two months to see if we should add additional measures as part of reopening the evening bus priority gate on 15 January. I think I have covered most of the issues that were raised.

Mr. Peter Brennan

The decision was very positive and sends a good signal to shoppers that the city is open for business. It is open for shopping until 15 January when the bus gate arrangement returns to what it was. These six weeks are so important for a lot of businesses, so I think it is a mature, sensible and flexible decision. In this economic cycle, we see the impact the bus gate and the associated measures, of which there are quite a few, will have on retailers, employment and running city centre businesses. Business is really tough and Dublin Chamber of Commerce welcomes this decision. We particularly welcome the flexibility that will be displayed for six or seven weeks. I echo what the city manager said about the bigger picture. We have taken a view that the bus gate is but a microcosm of what we will have to face in a year or two when we will have six or seven bus gates in the city. They will be under tougher conditions than the one at College Green, when the Metro, DART, Luas and other works get under way. We must learn lessons about communicating the importance of these things. It is important to clarify that one can get access to anywhere in the city and every single car park. That is what will happen with the signage.

I wish to make a personal comment about private parking. I worked abroad for several years and many shopping centres have an arrangement whereby if a person buys over a certain amount, say €30 or €40, they get free car parking. They will get a voucher or a parking ticket endorsed. There may be something there for the commercial car park operators and retail outlets to incentivise people to come in with a promise of free or much reduced car parking costs, if a certain volume of business is purchased. That may come about because the package of measures which has been approved by the city council will attract people back into the city. There is competition for business among city retailers, so hopefully they will take that matter on board.

Mr. John Tierney

I should have pointed out that a number of car parks on the north side in particular have changed their parking charges regime. Some of the figures we are getting now suggest that is proving to be quite successful. I should reiterate that the morning priority is still there and the evening priority will come back on 15 January. When I spoke to some of the objectors going into the meeting on Monday night, that was their big concern. They asked if it was definitely coming back on 15 January. That was made absolutely clear at the meeting. As Deputy Broughan knows, that was a particularly big issue among Labour Party members in the debate. I could not have supported the proposal if that were not the case. We passionately believe in improving the public transport situation. As a result of what we did, business realised that was the case and as a result of that we may eventually have more support for the proposal.

Chairman

That sums up what we all feel. I would certainly be opposed to the bus gate being discontinued. I am only happy to accept the initiative on the basis that it is a breather. I genuinely believe that Dublin city centre businesses will thrive as a result of this bus gate. I was in Cambridge recently where John Lewis, one of the largest department store chains in the UK, had a major decision to make, namely, whether it would close down or renovate its huge department store in the centre of Cambridge. After much discussion with a progressive city council and a progressive public transport outfit, it decided to invest a considerable amount of money in its department store. Part of that investment included putting a number of depots in the park and ride sites around the city of Cambridge. It is now one of the most successful department stores in the John Lewis chain in Britain. That proves that people will use the bus to go shopping.

We must change the mindset that one must drive the Mercedes or the BMW into a carpark. I am sorry if I am upsetting Deputies Chris Andrews and Broughan. It is not true that people cannot drive into town but they can take the bus now and again.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I hope John Lewis is coming to Dublin. Some 70,000 workers own the company and have managed it brilliantly. I understand it is an up-market company. Is the Chairman talking about the John Lewis Partnership? I believe it may look at things differently from ordinary capitalist companies.

I take reassurance from what Mr. Brennan and Mr. Tierney said in regard to the future. As Labour Party spokesperson on transport and as I find out more about metro north — Mr. Frank Allen will appear before the committee again — it seems a little scary. It will require serious management. We need the utmost amount of consultation and publication of information. We need to tell the people about it. People thought that perhaps the Spire would have to go.

I was in Liverpool earlier this year when the main railway station was being rebuilt. The amount of disruption that caused was amazing. One had to go from one of the outlying stations into the centre. It was quite messy and I am sure Liverpool Chamber of Commerce had problems with it.

I take reassurance from what was said but what has happened with the bus gate is perhaps a bit of a warning. While the business improvement district scheme, BIDs, committee said it was very successful for bus throughput and for ease of access through the bus gate, it was concerned that of 200 buses which went through in both directions over a one-hour period surveyed, 11% or so were either empty or out of service, 40% had fewer than 12 people on them and 23% were only a quarter full. A significant number of buses were not doing very much to carry people into the north and south inner city centre. Perhaps we need to liaise with Dublin Bus in that regard.

In figures supplied to me, Grafton Street was second in a hierarchy of high streets in the UK in terms of footfall. It is ahead of Church Street in Liverpool and is right behind Oxford Street. There are strong similarities between the UK and the Irish economies. The latest figures showed the UK was not coming out of recession before us but it is striking that we were down 9.3% in terms of inner city patronage while it was down 4.2% to 4.9%. The fall in inner city patronage here was twice that of London, Liverpool and Manchester.

We talked about political parties today and I would like to attack the Green Party. Deputy Cuffe attacked my party last night. My party is the largest party on Dublin City Council and has been very courageous in supporting the manager in many of these matters and in backing it up on the cycle scheme and so on. Deputy Cuffe attacked our work on the city council, attacked us for not having bottle and so on. This is the same Deputy who voted for a cut of 300 buses — 150 in Bus Éireann and 150 in Dublin Bus — an outrageous state of affairs.

Deputy Noel Ahern

The Deputy is not here.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I will attack him anyway.

Deputy Noel Ahern

Deputy Broughan should wait until he is here.

Chairman

Deputy Broughan suggested we should not go on all night.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

This is my final point. Deputy Cuffe has an unmerciful cheek to criticise my party in any way when he voted for a slashing of public bus services in this city. I do not know why his party is still in Government or why we have this Government.

Mr. Peter Brennan

It is correct to say that metro north is potentially scary. As the city manager said, all the agencies and the business community are working together and are doing their best to ensure that throughout this period of disruption, the city is marketed as being open for business.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I acknowledge the work of Mr. Tierney, Mr. Fitzgerald before him, Mr. Phillips and the other officials. We have always had a major problem in that Dublin city centre is so large. It is a bit like Budapest in that we almost have two city centres. It has a large semi-pedestrianised centre in comparison with Munich which is a similar sized city. Unfortunately, north-siders believe north-side and south-side Dublin are two different cities. The size causes a special problem in terms of management. The inner city is a large area to pedestrianise. Does Mr. Brennan understand the point I am trying to make?

Mr. Peter Brennan

Absolutely. When the Macken Street bridge opens, I hope it will divert much bus traffic across that bridge. I do not have precise figures but in excess of 50% of patronage going through College Green each day are not shoppers but are people going from home to work and vice versa. If they can get to Merrion Square by going over the Macken Street bridge, it will take pressure off College Green. As I said, we will have to wait to see how this happens along with all the other measures.

We are very conscious of the fact it is a very narrow corridor through which a significant percentage of bus movements occur. However, that will switch and change over time.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Do we need incentives for city centre businesses? I heard the point my colleague made about rate valuations. We have all received complaints from some of our business constituents who perhaps have a business in the Clare Hall centre which is in the city and in the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre which is in the county. They are treated a little differently. The way the M50 works is profound in that there are shopping centres along that route. Given that we will build metro north, will the chamber of commerce ask the Government to do whatever it can to get people into the city?

Mr. Peter Brennan

I could not agree more. That is already being discussed with the Transport 21 group.

Chairman

I thank the Dublin city manager and his staff and Mr. Brennan and his staff. I am glad progress is being made. We will see a much better city as a result of the initiatives being taken. I wish them the best of luck. I apologise for the delay in starting.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.50 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 November 2009.