Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 2022

National Aviation Policy: Minister for Transport and Minister of State at the Department of Transport

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting today is to further consider Ireland's national aviation policy. We are joined by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton. They are both most welcome. It should be noted that there is an engagement that requires the attendance of both the Ministers between 2 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. I propose, as agreed, that we will suspend for that period and, hopefully, we will get back as quickly as possible.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind Members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams, prior to making a contribution, to confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus. All those attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I propose that the opening statements will be held in this first half an hour. Some members may get to contribute. I ask that the Ministers would try to be as concise as possible in their opening statements. I call the Minister.

Minister for Transport (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I thank the Chair and wish him and the members, "Good afternoon." I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it regarding its consideration of Ireland's national aviation policy.

Our current policy was published in August 2015, which was a little more than 20 years since a previous formal statement of objectives had been made in respect of aviation. I think we can all agree that air travel has changed remarkably since 1994, yet some of the objectives set out then, and restated in 2015, remain valid today.

The development of that 2015 policy was a thorough process that was launched in December 2012 and involved multiple phases of consultation and consideration of views and comments expressed and offered by a range of stakeholders and it is intended that we will approach the review in a similar consultative and collaborative manner.

Of course, we cannot talk about aviation policy without recognising and acknowledging our geographic position and the unique role aviation plays in ensuring geography has not been an impediment to our economic development. We are an island nation on the periphery of Europe, but despite that we have managed to build our economy into one that is recognised worldwide in scale. Indeed, President von der Leyen, in her address to the Dáil last week, remarked how Ireland is seen as a success story of the European Union. If we were to look for evidence to illustrate that, we could look to the aviation sector as an example. We rely on aviation to provide our international connectivity and to secure our economic position globally. In addition, in terms of direct employment, aviation serves as a key driver for our wider economy through the various ancillary services provided to airports, airlines and in local communities. It also plays a central role in supporting our tourism industry, which has been a leading job creator, especially in rural communities. Prior to the pandemic, tourism supported more than 260,000 jobs, with almost 70% of those located outside of Dublin.

No doubt the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, will take the opportunity in her opening statement to provide some detail in respect of our policy approach to airports, both State and regional. I would like to turn to the principal goals at the heart of the national aviation policy, which were to enhance Ireland's connectivity, to foster the growth of aviation enterprise and to maximise the contribution of aviation to Ireland's sustainable economic growth and development. It is fair to say that since the policy was published, it has served the industry well and significant progress was made on the implementation and delivery of the goals. Two progress reports were published in respect of the policy, the most recent of which was in 2019. Unfortunately, as we are all aware, we were soon faced after that with the worst crisis ever to hit the aviation industry, indeed all industries, in the form of the Covid-19 pandemic. In 2020, focus was quickly diverted to managing this crisis and difficult decisions had to be taken, both domestically and globally, which had extreme consequences for the aviation industry.

The Government engaged closely with the industry during this period of upheaval and provided unprecedented horizontal Exchequer supports to try to alleviate the impacts being experienced. Further to this, the national economic recovery plan recognised that additional support may be required to support the sector's recovery as European and international air transport returned. Given this, the Government allocated a further €116 million under a Covid supplementary support scheme to Irish airports. This funding compensated smaller regional airports for the damage caused to them by Covid as well as providing State airports with flexibility to roll out route incentives and to provide rebates with a view to supporting recovery and returning connectivity. These route incentives have proved successful in providing impetus for the recovery. We are pleased to see that is now well under way. However that does not mean obstacles do not remain.

My Department has now turned its attention to assessing the current drivers for change in the context of a revision of the national aviation policy. The impact of the Covid-19 crisis is one factor, but there are other issues in the changing landscape of the aviation industry that need to be given significant consideration. I believe the most crucial of these is the climate crisis. We can longer ignore the fact that a fundamental change is necessary to mitigate the negative impacts caused to our environment by air travel. I am working closely with my European colleagues on the progression of the EU's most comprehensive package of proposals ever to address climate change, the Fit for 55 legislative package. A number of the measures in this package will directly impact the aviation industry. A key element in the short term in addressing decarbonisation of the industry will be the role of sustainable aviation fuel, SAF. New obligations will be placed on airlines to incorporate mandated levels of SAF into their fuel supply chain from 2025. Given this is a nascent industry, it is clear this is an area we will need to examine carefully in the context of our review.

There are other ways and means to decarbonise. Taken from what is known as the basket of measures, these include technological advances, improvements in operational arrangements, and market-based measures. Irish airlines, by and large, operate modern fuel-efficient fleets, but there is still a requirement for them to engage in the market-based measures such as the emissions trading scheme, ETS, from a European perspective, and the carbon offsetting and reduction scheme for international aviation, CORSIA, on a global level. The ETS has proven to be effective, and the European Commission has estimated that aviation's participation in the scheme has contributed to almost 200 million tonnes of reductions of CO2 emissions over the past eight years. The Fit for 55 package includes a proposal to strengthen further the ETS scheme for aviation. The industry itself has acknowledged it needs to play its part, as we all do, and that includes the travelling public. I encourage anyone who has an opportunity voluntarily to offset their journey to take that option.

There have been many other developments happening domestically, including the institutional changes in respect of our safety and economic regulators and the air navigation service provided. I am pleased to say the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and officials have secured the passing of this importance legislation, which will see us move forward with a best practice approach to regulatory structure.

There are changes internationally, too, and innovations and advances in the industry that will need to be considered in our review. Aviation has always been an evolving industry, and this challenges us as policymakers and regulators to act to ensure we can provide a fit-for-purpose framework within which our industry can operate and develop in a sustainable way. It is safe to say there is challenging work ahead of us. In saying that, we must also recognise it will take time to undertake the appropriate engagement and analysis needed to make sure we adopt the right approach for us all. I look forward to engaging with the committee on this work and to receiving its analysis and views following this series of engagements it has undertaken.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We now move to the contribution of the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I am delighted to be with the committee today at a time when our Covid days are, thankfully, behind us and the aviation industry has bounced back faster and stronger than any of us might have anticipated this time last year. As recognised in the current national aviation policy, our three State airports provide essential infrastructure and services to support our economic and social activities. Dublin, Cork, and Shannon airports have a critical role each in providing connectivity and facilitating economic development by enabling trade, tourism and inward investment. As Ireland's primary gateway, one of the stated objectives for Dublin Airport, given its size and geographical location, is to develop into a secondary hub, competing with the UK and other European markets for global aviation services. Given their locations, Shannon Airport and Cork Airport also hold strategic importance and are linked to two important tourism offerings: the Wild Atlantic Way and Ireland's Ancient East, and the policy recognises their role in developing as key tourism and business gateways for these regions.

The Government recognises the important supporting role our smaller regional airports - Ireland West Airport Knock, Kerry and Donegal airports - play in terms of connectivity to our regions. National policy on regional airports is designed to optimise conditions for regional development and connectivity. We all recognise the important roles airports play in the economy of the regions and nationally, and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, already referred to their importance from the perspective of tourism employment regionally. In line with this objective, the capacity of airports to handle scheduled passenger services is fundamental to the regional airports programme. Following a public consultation undertaken by my Department in 2019, the Regional Airports Programme 2021-2025 was developed and published in February 2021. As with previous programmes, supports, which are bound by the limits of relevant state aid rules, are limited to regional airports that handle fewer than 1 million annual passengers. A key difference in the new programme is the broadening of its capacity to encourage emissions reduction and climate resilience at the airports. While the focus of funding under this programme remains primarily vested in safety and security, the scope was broadened to include projects with sustainability objectives to help mitigate the impacts of aviation on the environment and to help facilitate the sustainable growth of the sector. Many of the projects supported to date under this new programme have incorporated valuable climate benefits, such as the replacement of vehicles at our airports with more efficient, low-emission equivalents, the replacement of airfield and external lighting with LEDs, and the upgrade of electrical infrastructure at airports, bringing about energy efficiencies. The planning and implementation of solar photovoltaic systems has also been supported, providing airports with the means for electricity generation.

The programme also supports a public service obligation, PSO, air service between Donegal and Dublin. As the Minister mentioned, the Government has maintained a strong commitment to the aviation sector, both throughout the Covid-19 pandemic and as recovery and growth of connectivity across the sector continues. In addition to supporting Donegal, Knock and Kerry airports under the regional airports programme last year, both Shannon and Cork airports were also supported under a one-year Covid-19 regional State airports programme. A combined total of €45 million was provided under these programmes in 2021.

This year, the Government has provided €46 million under the regional airports programme. This funding will continue to support Shannon, Cork, Donegal, Knock and Kerry airports. On 19 April, I was pleased to announce almost €16.4 million in capital supports to airports under the programme. This was followed by my announcement this week of more than €21 million in operational supports to airports. This funding contributes to the operational costs associated with air traffic control, fire services and security.

Funding under the programme in 2022 also continues to support public service obligation, PSO, air services between Donegal and Dublin. Earlier this year, I was pleased to announce the awarding of a new PSO air services contract on this route. The twice daily two-way air services, facilitating same day return trips from Donegal, and further onward international connectivity from Dublin Airport, marks the Government’s commitment to ensuring continued connectivity to this region for the next three years.

The Government has sustained these substantial high level supports with a total package of €36 million announced for eligible regional airports in budget 2023. Funding of €30 million will be provided in 2023 under the programme to support Shannon, Ireland West Airport Knock, Donegal, and Kerry airports along with the Donegal to Dublin PSO route. The level of investment will continue to support airports’ growth next year, beyond that experienced this year following the lifting of travel restrictions in March.

While not eligible for supports under the regional airports programme in 2023, given that passenger numbers are on target to exceed 2.1 million by the end of 2022, in recognition of the important role of Cork Airport to the economy of the south region and nationally, capital funding of €6 million will be provided to Cork Airport in 2023. This funding will support the commencement of a significant security screening project at Cork Airport next year. This funding is consistent with the programme for Government action to deliver capital programmes required to support services and ensure safety at our State and regional airports.

The primary aim of the Regional Airports Programme 2021-2025 is to provide targeted funding to Ireland’s smallest airports, that is, those that provide connectivity and handle fewer than 1 million passengers annually. In order to consider how the programme is currently delivering on its objectives, primarily in the context of supporting balanced regional development, the programme provides for the mid-term review to be complete by the end of 2023. As the committee is aware, I recently announced that I had asked my Department to commence this mid-term review.

In addition to considering how the programme is currently delivering on its objectives, the mid-term review will also explore how international connectivity and services to and from the regions can be maintained and enhanced. I welcome views from interested parties on the range of issues that might be addressed in an issues paper, which will be published as part of the public consultation process. While it is open to interested parties to put forward any issues to be considered for inclusion in the upcoming issues paper, I would like to see this initial process open up the discussion with relevant stakeholders on their views on how we can boost traffic to, and utilise better, our regional airports. I would welcome views on the issues that might be raised to be submitted to my Department by the end of January. Furthermore, given the ongoing calls for the inclusion of both Shannon and Cork airports under the regional airports programme on a permanent basis, I would also welcome views on expanding the scope of the programme to include airports of up to 3 million passengers. As I mentioned, eligibility criteria of the programme currently limit aid to airports with fewer than 1 million annual passengers.

This process will give the Department a better overall picture of the full range of issues that stakeholders would like to see addressed in the issues paper that the Department will be working on in parallel. Following consideration of all views received, I will then open the public consultation with the publication of an issues paper in the first quarter of 2023. I expect the period of consultation to then be open for six to eight weeks. Next steps will then be determined, based on the range of issues raised and feedback received from the stakeholders but I expect to publish the mid-term review of the regional airports programme in the autumn.

I am looking forward to hearing the committee’s views at our session today and working together to ensure we have a vibrant aviation sector that can continue to grow in a sustainable manner.

Chairman

We have approximately five minutes to two o'clock so we can either suspend now and come back to questioning or we can let the first questioner in. I leave it up to the Minister to decide.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We do have to be there at two o'clock, Chair.

Chairman

Then I suggest that we suspend now until 2.30 p.m. We will suspend for 30 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 1.55 p.m. and resumed at 2.35 p.m.

Chairman

I ask members to adhere strictly to the time limits as the Minister and the Minister of State have to leave by 3.45 p.m.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have quite a few questions but I will be brief if the Minister and Minister of State can be brief. This matter is key to the Department and where it goes in the coming years. In June 2021, the Cabinet agreed a memorandum to transfer Shannon Heritage, which comes under the patronage of the Department of Transport, to the local authorities in the mid-west. This issue is still up in the air 18 months on. What is going on? The Department of Transport is the lead Department on this. The workers who have been strung along in this process are hoping for some certainty this side of Christmas.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

There is a real effort to get this over the line. It is absolutely critical that these heritage sites are transferred to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As the Deputy is aware, an interdepartmental group was set up and held a considerable number of meetings. Extensive engagement is taking place on this matter. I discussed it as recently as this morning with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who said he is engaging with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, to try to get it over the line as quickly as possible. A considerable amount of work is taking place. As the Deputy knows, there is a funding gap to be resolved. I assure there has also been a extensive engagement from the Department of Transport's point of view. The Ministers, Deputies O'Brien and McGrath, are engaging on this to try to get the transfer completed as quickly as possible.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

The desire to have this completed is not just for frivolous reasons. The site has a booking system which kicks in again in January 2023. Workers wish to know it will be operational seven days per week, as it was before Covid arrived. They need certainty. There is only a little over a week of Dáil sittings left. Will that certainty be given before everything wraps up before Christmas?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Everything that can be done is being done. I know the Ministers are engaging on this to get it over the line.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Ms Mary Considine, CEO of the Shannon Group, and her board have made an application to the Department for a public service obligation, PSO, service to operate from Shannon Airport to Schiphol Airport. This service is crucial, all the more so since the advent of Brexit which has been a disaster. We in the west feel geographically peripheral. This matter has been with the Department for some time. PSO services are part of national aviation policy. Where is the application at? Can the Minister of State give a positive indication of where it is going?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Yes, I can. We engage extensively with all our regional airports on improving connectivity. That is part of the reason I opened up the mid-term view of the regional airports programme. The application from Shannon Airport is with the Department. I know members of the committee visited Schiphol Airport with regard to PSOs there. I wish to ensure Shannon Airport and the mid-west grow and we increase connectivity. We allocated a significant amount of funding to our airports in order that they could directly engage with airlines. Airports and airlines would have to engage on what cities and hubs there could potentially be PSO services with, so-----

Deputy Cathal Crowe

This is time sensitive. Most airlines have launched and announced their summer 2023 schedule. They are starting to sell flights. If this is to happen and the Government really has Shannon's back, the decision needs to move off the Minister of State's desk and over to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to green light it. If it is not to happen, given that Schiphol Airport faces a similar reality with environmental restrictions on how many flights can land there, a plan B needs to be formulated and worked on quickly.

The real element we want to see in the new national aviation policy is some degree of support and protection for the other airports outside the capital. I do not like using the term "regional". Our local airport in Shannon is an international one. We have had bad days in that airport. The loss of the slots at Heathrow Airport in 2007 was the low point, and the airport was certainly let down then. We want the airport to know that the Government will have its back and that certain initiatives in the new national aviation policy will allow for some degree of recalibration. Having up to 90% of all air traffic going in and out of Dublin Airport is wrong from the perspective of balanced regional development. To speak to something close to the heart of the Minister, it is also environmentally unsustainable to have so many aircraft being funnelled through one airport. We met the Ministers' counterparts in the Netherlands and they have started to view aviation through that lens. Will the Minister consider imposing a cap of sorts on the number of aircraft taking off from and landing at Dublin Airport in a calendar year and having a more regional spread of everything that happens elsewhere in Ireland?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I agree with Deputy Crowe that we have an imbalance in our country. Approximately 95% of customers come into Dublin Airport, 95% of roll-on, roll-off, ro-ro, freight containers come through Dublin Port and half of all new housing is being built in the greater Dublin area. I agree that we have an imbalance. A whole variety of measures will need to be taken to address this issue, primarily by investing in the other cities because that will provide a counterweight to Dublin. One of the reasons for Dublin Airport's success is-----

Chairman

I ask the Minister to be brief. The time for this discussion has been cut back by nearly an hour, so we need a quick over-and-back debate and direct questions.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Okay. I am afraid it is not possible to cap the number of flights. We have benefited from international aviation being organised on a liberal basis with no restrictions. We cannot go back to the days where it was not possible to fly into Dublin. The solution must be to see how we can build up the international airports outside Dublin.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

The reason I ask this from the environmental lens is that the Minister's counterparts in the Netherlands and all the other aviation people we met three weeks ago told us there were other forms of restrictions. Initially, we went over believing that the centre of Dutch policy was regional balance. It turned out, however, that this was a bit of a factor but the main factor was that the Netherlands has noise emission and environmental quotas. Schiphol Airport has been deemed to be close to and often exceeding these limits. It is for this reason that the Government of the Netherlands has said that too much aviation is being funnelled through the national airport and more must go to the regions. This needs to be looked at through the environmental lens.

At COP27, the Minister made the point that there will be a need for increased levies on aviation. I find it hard to reconcile this with growth in the aviation sector, particularly as we are an island nation. The Minister's tune might change when he speaks to his European counterparts. Ireland is in need of a taxation carve-out. Long-haul flights and connecting flights are currently exempt from environmental taxes, but point-to-point short-haul travel, which is exactly what we have coming out of Ireland, is being punitively taxed by the EU. We need a reversal or some degree of recalibration of that. The comments made at COP27 will instil some fear in those who work in and depend on aviation. We are an island nation. Unlike the Netherlands, we do not have a train network to bring us into the heart of Europe. We must fly out of our country. I hope the Minister will have time to respond to this question.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I stand by my comments at the COP27 meeting, which were backed up and supported by the Vice President of the European Commission and a number of European ministers. We agreed in unison that this was the right approach and that sectors like aviation, shipping and the fossil fuel industry will need to make a contribution to some of the funds we will require to address the climate damage already occurring. I believe this was the right approach. It is set at €1 per ticket, which I do not believe will materially damage our connectivity as an island but, when applied globally, would lead to €4.5 billion going into the loss and damage fund annually. This was the right thing to propose. Europe as a whole proposed it. I expect it will be brought up in the ongoing negotiations and could well, and I hope will, be introduced.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thankful the Minister and Minister of State for the presentation and their ongoing work. I appreciate that a review of the mid-term position of the aviation policy is now possible, as was said. I hope this will be more than a review and that it will lead to concrete changes. That is the expectation.

I will concentrate on a few aspects, and again these are somewhat parochial. The issue of the Shannon Heritage sites must be resolved. Failure is not an option. While I understand a level of jockeying is going on regarding who will fill the gap, the reality is that Clare County Council cannot be burdened with the whole cost. I thank the Minister and the Minister of State and their officials for their ongoing engagement with me. They have listened on every occasion and we have gone through this many times. We have to set a deadline. It would be great to get it done by Christmas, which I accept would be a tight deadline. If not, could we at least set a deadline to have this resolved by the end of January? If this deadline were set, it would force people's hand. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, are prepared to come a little of the way. I believe there must also be input from Shannon airport. It is offloading an asset that is costly to maintain. It must get some benefits from that. A significant amount of the debt has been written off and that is welcome, but a little bit more effort and a little bit of goodwill over the next two to three years could make this a success. We must put this matter to bed. I ask the Minister of State to respond.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

From the Government's perspective, this transfer is critical for the long-term viability of these heritage sites. I know I sound like I am repeating myself, but a great deal of work has been done and it is ongoing. We know the pressures that exist and I am acutely aware of them, as I know Shannon Airport is. A great deal of work has been done on this matter in the last two years, never mind since the work of the interdepartmental group. As I said, I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, this morning. He assured me he is working with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath. We appreciate the urgency of this matter. The issues are being teased out. This is important locally and people on the ground are genuinely concerned, so we want to try to allay those concerns as quickly as possible and to get this initiative over the line.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Those are welcome comments.

On the wider aviation strategy, I will again concentrate on Shannon Airport because it is symptomatic of the other airports outside Dublin. Key connectivity is of vital importance. Schiphol Airport would be ideal in this regard. I refer to a situation where slot access turns out to not be possible. The Minister of State rightly identified that this is not just about the PSO, but also requires an airline being prepared to provide the services. While the State may offer a PSO contract, it is not clear whether an airline will be ready to take it up. If this turns out not to be the case, will the Minister of State also consider Frankfurt Airport, or Schiphol Airport, in respect of onward connectivity to the wider world? This would be of great benefit to the Shannon region, not just from a tourism but also a business perspective. If the tools available to the Minister of State were looked at again, as part of the change in policy, consideration must be given to how it will prove possible to attract more point-to-point business. That would be good but what we really need is onward connectivity to Asia and beyond to make the mid-west region a focus for economic growth.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

All of this input from stakeholders, including from airlines and airports, needs to feed into the mid-term review. The door is open regarding what we need to do to drive more traffic into the regions. That is clear. On PSOs, it is important to state, as the Minister said, that Ireland has always taken a liberal approach to our aviation policy. The EU's single aviation market is fully liberalised, which means European airline carriers are free to operate services anywhere in the EU. From a state aid perspective, we cannot ignore that side of-----

Senator Timmy Dooley

I accept that. I have done a lot of good work on PSOs in the past.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Whether we are talking about Frankfurt Airport or elsewhere, we must work through state aid. The door is open in this regard. This is why it is important to have public consultations to ensure airlines can feed into this process. We often forget this point. Being in the Department of Transport and having responsibility for aviation also means that we sometimes forget the importance of bringing in other sectors, such as tourism. It is key that these sectors feed into this mid-term review.

Tourism Ireland has put in place a marketing fund. It is doing huge work to drive tourists into the regions. Tourism also needs to provide input into this consultation process to examine how we can boost the regions as well. As I said, the airlines and airports must be discussing how this will work and ensure it will not have a negative impact on our other airports.

The same goes for other airports that might want to be driving extra traffic. Shannon, for example, should not be negatively impacted-----

Senator Timmy Dooley

I am very conscious the PSO may not work, so we cannot put all our expectations on that. It is nice if it does, but we had this issue before and it is extremely difficult to get it over the line. I appeal to the Minister of State to please keep working on it but also to look at other options and incentives that can make Clare, the mid-west and Shannon attractive.

For the little bit of time I have left, I wish to move on to something that is also part of the overall aviation policy and that has impact on the mid-west, which is the capacity to have lower carbon fuels and the synthetic fuels that can be developed, particularly now recognising that hydrogen will be produced in the mid-west. The Minister was in Moneypoint recently, so he will be familiar with what the ESB is proposing to do there with the generation of hydrogen and the possibility of that becoming the base fuel or the base energy for the creation of more carbon-reduced fuels for the aviation sector. There is much work going on in Trinity College and at the University of Limerick. Will the Minister talk a little bit about that and how that might form part of his thinking in this overall strategy?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is critical and central to the whole strategy. Going back to what Deputy Crowe said, environmental measures can be used to promote some airports over others. Shannon has potential there. It has a very long runway and can take heavier loads, a lower carbon footprint from across the Atlantic because of distance, lower circling times because of less congestion but also the potential to be a leading airport in the development of new sustainable aviation fuels. That is likely first to be taking feedstock from either fats, tallow, oils, other waste oil products, waste cooking oil, and-or other biofuel blends, for which we will have requirements for the middle or end of this decade and into the next decade within the European regulatory system, where a certain percentage of such fuels will be available. Shannon has the capability. In particular, under the apron in the airport it has fuel tanks that have an advantage over what might be available, for example, in Dublin Airport. In addition, it has a jetty into an excellent deepwater port and neighbouring areas in Shannon, such as Foynes, the island of the Foynes Harbour, but also Moneypoint and Tarbert, for the potential for the production, as the Senator said, of some of the hydrogen that could be used in future synthetic fuels.

I engaged last year with the US Secretary of Transportation and the chief executive of a US airlines to say that if they are looking for a partner on this side of the Atlantic to be the first location to deploy such sustainable aviation fuels on the principle they want to restock on either side of the Atlantic, we would offer Shannon as just that sort of exemplary cutting-edge airport. There is real potential in that. It will probably start, as I said, with blended arrangements. However, even in that, Shannon has the advantage because of its fuel storage capability, its deepwater jetty terminal connection and its underlying advantages of having a long runway with a lightly used airfield relative to others.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Is the Minister’s Department answerable to the Oireachtas?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Perhaps then the Minster will explain why its officials will not come to this committee. The Minister is here, but his officials will not come.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am surrounded by officials from-----

Chairman

In what context?

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

In the context of search and rescue.

Chairman

It is not on the agenda today, but I will allow the Senator some degree of-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

It is part of policy for the aviation industry in this country because-----

Chairman

We will allow the Senator some latitude, but he should tread carefully.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I appreciate that. Does the Minister believe this committee has the right of oversight of what is going on with respect to the tendering process?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, but this committee does not the have the right to interfere or influence an ongoing tendering process.

Chairman

Be very careful now, Minister. This committee has never interfered.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That is what I am saying. I am not saying it has, but-----

Chairman

If members have to be careful, then equally the Minister does as well. We already had correspondence on this and made it clearly evident to his Department that we have never interfered as a committee.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am very glad.

Chairman

I would like the Minister to clarify on that point.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am not saying it did. What I said is that is not where we should go.

Chairman

It never went there. I would ask the Minister to respect that particular point.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I absolutely respect that. However, in the middle of a highly sensitive and highly important procurement process where we have to be sensitive to the commercial sensitivities in that, our Secretary General, if that is who the Chair is referring to, in his correspondence with this committee has been absolutely correct in the approach he took.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Let me ask the Minister something. Both of them wrote to me and signed the letter on 4 August 2022. It stated:

As ministers, we are somewhat removed from the day-to-day execution of the process. Accordingly, we have engaged with our officials to understand and reply to the issues that you have raised.

If they cannot have hands-on, then surely this committee should have hands-on oversight of what is going on. That is covered under the very directive the Minister’s Secretary General quoted when he used paragraph 17 as a reason he should not attend. If he had read paragraph 85, he would have seen that the Oireachtas is obliged to oversee public procurement.

I am deeply concerned that we have a process going forward that will cost this country way more than it is costing the UK for a similar service. There is no oversight and nobody is willing to explain to this committee how we have arrived at the position we are at. Why, for example, do we not buy the helicopters and keep them? We are paying for them anyway.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I do not accept that. I think we are straying very far way from the purpose of the-----

Chairman

I would ask at this point for the Senator to make his point. We need to move on.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Another issue is of concern to me. We had Michael O’Leary before the committee the other day and Dublin Airport is about to upgrade its security scanning system to match what is in Shannon Airport and Cork Airport. We have seen the Shannon one and it is truly wonderful.

Chairman

It certainly is.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes. It is very good. Mr. O’Leary made the point that if we do that on a piecemeal basis in Dublin, it will completely disrupt the security processing system there. What is the plan, especially for Christmas?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I have been meeting with senior management in Dublin Airport.

Chairman

The Minister of State will be aware we have been corresponding as well with DAA on foot of Michael O’Leary’s comments to our committee.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

During that engagement, I emphasised that the excessive delays and queuing times experienced by passengers earlier this summer cannot be repeated. The Department and I are getting updates on that. The evidence I am looking for is the safe movement of passengers through security so they can get their flights, particularly in the run-up to Christmas. Last Saturday and Sunday, 100% of passengers cleared security in less than 30 minutes. This morning - again, the Department is continually in contact with the DAA – 100% of passengers again cleared security in less than 30 minutes. That would be the measure with which we can look at the success of the movement of passengers. They assured me they are equipped, have contingencies in place and have a task force ready if needed. As I said, I am getting weekly updates on that. I understand the importance, as we all do, of ensuring our passengers are getting through during busy times. They are giving me assurances that is all in hand. As I said, I am in regular contact to make sure people can come into the country or leave over the Christmas period safely and that everything is well managed.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I wish to go back to the issue of Shannon Airport. I am not in the region. I live in Dublin, so I have no axe to grind regarding Shannon, other than the-----

Chairman

Any positive comments on Shannon Airport are always welcome.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The visit we made showed the gross underutilisation of a tremendous airport. I refer to people from the Minister of State’s constituency in Galway. There is a rail line now running to Limerick. Should we be trying to find a better way to accommodate passengers travelling into Shannon in the context of its proximity of Limerick city, Tipperary and Kerry? As I was driving away the day we visited, I could not but start to look in the rear view mirror and think that somewhere along the line we lost a great opportunity for the people of the mid-west. Are there plans to start putting in more regular shuttle buses to attract more people?

If the people go there, the airlines will come.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I agree. I regularly use Shannon Airport. It provides a fantastic service and the staff do incredible work. The passenger numbers at the airport have increased significantly this past year. There are transatlantic flights and extra connectivity through Ryanair. It has grown from strength to strength. It shows the work that has been done. Much of this was on foot of coming out of Covid-19 and using the Exchequer funding we gave to airports to do what they do best. It was not so much handouts and funding for the sake of funding; this was Shannon Group showing it is able to negotiate with airlines and win extra connectivity. What I want to do as part of the mid-term review of the regional airports programme is to reach out to tourism, local stakeholders and the chambers of commerce which contact me and Oireachtas Members regularly with regard to doing more to drive traffic into the regions. This is not only with regard to the airport in Shannon but also those in Knock, Donegal and Kerry. This is why public consultation is very important. It is so that we get good constructive feedback on how we can do this. The Minister Deputy Ryan spoke about sustainable aviation fuels and the mid-west region. There is great potential from a business point of view.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The Chair is indicating to me so I will jump in with a final comment. I want to put on record my thanks to the Minister of State Deputy Naughton. The Air Navigation and Transport Bill has been mentioned. It had a difficult passage through the Seanad. I thank the Minister of State for her willingness to listen and co-operate with us. We now have a Bill in place and I hope we will see it enacted and up and running very quickly. I compliment the Minister of State on this and I thank her for the perseverance.

Chairman

There was a bit of turbulence.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

There was a little turbulence. I am afraid I must now go to another meeting.

Deputy Joe Carey

I want to raise the issue of the Shannon Heritage sites and their transfer from Shannon Group to Clare County Council. It is a matter of great concern particularly for the people who work in these sites and Clare County Council and for the tourism offering in County Clare. This was first mooted approximately 18 months ago. Very slow progress has been made. Will the Minister of State explain the Department's involvement in this? What is the Department doing to ensure a deal is done and this transfer can happen as soon as possible?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I thank Deputy Carey. As I said to colleagues previously, the political will is there to get this transferred as quickly as possible. A great deal of work has been done in the Department of Transport. An interdepartmental group was established with the Department of Transport, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the OPW and the Department for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to look at how we can move this forward. This was during the summer and work had taken place even before that. The Department has also worked with Shannon Group and Shannon Airport on this. I met the Minister Deputy O'Brien this morning and spoke to him about the urgency of getting this over the line. I know the concerns locally. I have reiterated at this meeting, and I will say it again to Deputy Carey, it is important for the future viability of these very important Shannon Heritage sites that we get the transfer completed as quickly as possible. The Minister Deputy O'Brien is engaging with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Deputy McGrath on the funding gap and what can be done to get this over the line. There is a real impetus on this. I want to see this transferred as quickly as possible. I reassure those in the locality that everything that can be done is being done to ensure we get this resolved.

Deputy Joe Carey

There was an expectation it would be concluded before the end of the year. Does the Minister of State think this opportunity has been lost?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

That is my hope.

Deputy Joe Carey

The Minister of State is still optimistic that a deal can be done before the end of the year.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Absolutely.

Deputy Joe Carey

Will we hear something this week?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I do not know. The lever is not in the hands of the Department of Transport. We have done a great deal of work to get it to this point. There is a funding issue and a lot of work is happening behind the scenes to get it resolved.

Deputy Joe Carey

The Minister Deputy Ryan spoke about sustainable aviation fuels. Michael O'Leary and Eddie Wilson came before the committee last week and we spoke about this issue. Will the Minister explain what the State is doing to try to promote the use of sustainable aviation fuels and their development and what it is doing with regard to Ireland becoming a leading light in this new area?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Our first role is as part of the European Union and its legislative process. This is our key role. We are very progressive and looking for higher targets and the higher use of such fuels. My interaction has been directly with the airports and, for example, going to Shannon Airport and asking it to work with us on developing the policy capability. This included a recent visit to Shannon Foynes Port. Deputy Carey was also there. The Bechtel study is a major report looking at the potential. We have engaged with the Shannon estuary economic task force. We have chosen Shannon because it has strategic advantages in this regard. It will be done through engagement with the airport and the Shannon estuary economic task force. I am wearing two hats, as Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications as well as Minister for Transport. We do not directly manage the feed stocks. There are other uses for such fuels, such as the road transport sector. Many similar materials and biofuels obligations have an impact. First and foremost I believe the correct approach for us is with the airports and the airlines. I met Ryanair last week. I have listened to academic experts from Trinity College on their latest analysis. Our best role is to work in Europe and work with the airports and the industry.

Deputy Joe Carey

What does the Minister see as the next tangible steps?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The next steps are likely to involve contracting fuels from the likes of the Port of Rotterdam and other such locations where there is already development. They will be used by some of the airlines in blended fuels. They will also include purchasing such material from an international market. We must then look at whether we can use some of the waste streams here for the development of such fuel capability. It is not easy to get into the refining business of this. It is large industrial processing. We have only one refinery. It is engaged in this and it is looking for waste products. The first step will be probably the purchase of fuels on the international market for use by Irish airlines.

Deputy Joe Carey

I want to come back to the review of the regional airports programme. This has started. One of the advantages during Covid was that the State gave money to the airport authorities to deal directly with airlines. Is this an aspect of the review the Minister of State would encourage? Does she think this could form part of the policy? Will a tranche of money be allocated directly to airports to deal with airlines themselves?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It is what airports do best. The answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes". This is the feedback we want to get from airports and airlines. There are state aid rules relating to route incentives to airlines. As Deputy Carey knows, state aid is complex. We were able to do this under the Covid supplementary support scheme for Irish airports in 2021. Shannon Airport is a very good example of an airport that used this money very well to engage directly with airlines. This could be a way forward. The scheme was a Covid-19 scheme. Covid is no longer a justified reason because we are coming out of it. There is start-up aid that gives airlines the necessary incentive to create new routes from regional airports. This could certainly be something that could be explored. This is why I want people to feed into the issues paper first. The consultation phase will be open until the end of January. As part of the issues paper there will be a six to eight week consultation on the midterm review and people will be able to feed into this. The answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes" but I want to hear feedback from the airlines and the airports. The committee is bringing these stakeholders before it. It will be important to get their views. We want to make sure Ireland is connected and that one airport does not take from another. We need to understand the implications of doing all of these things but they are possible.

Deputy Joe Carey

When will the national aviation policy be reviewed?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Next year. I wanted to start with the regional airports programme.

Deputy Joe Carey

Is there time? When next year will it be?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Work will begin in the new year. I want to put the focus on the mid-term review of the regional airports programmes first because the issue is the regions. That is why I wanted to put a focus on the regions and put all our effort into that first. The mid-term review will take place in quarter 1. I see the national aviation policy being reviewed in parallel with that, certainly by early next year.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for their time. I will ask about an issue that seems to be an anomaly, namely, the way in which environmental taxes are raised, for example, short-haul versus long-haul and connecting flights. This is an issue that was raised with the committee and is recognised at national and European level. Are there plans to address it? It seems it would place a heavier burden on Irish passengers who are going point to point.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

This goes back to the earlier discussion with, I believe, Deputy Crowe. We need a global response. As I said, we do not want certain areas not contributing. I agree we should look for long-haul as well as short-haul flights to be included in various schemes. My recall is that the emissions trading scheme, ETS, does not go outside the EU area but the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, carbon offsetting and reduction scheme for international aviation, CORSIA, arrangement allows for intercontinental charges to apply. Should we go towards a more standardised, firm system where ETS-type arrangements apply across the board? I would like to see that too, but it has to be done through international co-operation. In the meantime, one of the other mechanisms we discussed, which was raised at COP27, is one that would allow us to have a level playing field for all aviation around the world.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is there a process coming out of COP27 on how a mechanism like that comes into being? The argument made is that the current system is not fair.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No, it is not fair. The strength of the COP27 decision is that 198 countries agreed it, although not in real detail. A transition committee has been established that will work over the next year with UN bodies, including the UN Secretary General's office. In truth, Europe was the only voice in those COP talks that raised the issue of such funding mechanisms, but I believe it can and will garner support. I expect the transition committee will look at that as one of the options. In likelihood, it will take two years for it to be developed. However, that funding mechanism is now a possibility.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Has the Minister considered a landing or departure tax on private jets in Ireland? At a European level, the environment and transport group has identified in the region of 6,000-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

That is the exact sort of arrangement we can look at in this review of aviation policy. I welcome the views of this committee, as I said, and other parties in that regard.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Okay. Is there any flexibility regarding the threshold of a million passengers? I think it is the case that other countries use a different threshold.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Yes. To answer the Deputy's question directly, there is a 3 million passenger threshold for other countries in the EU. Again, I ask people to feed into that as part of the mid-term review. Currently, Cork Airport is outside the threshold for this year and next year because it is doing so well. Shannon Airport is doing very well; it is almost at one million passengers. We have to look at the Exchequer implications if we increase the threshold to 3 million passengers in addition to the impact it would have on other airports throughout Ireland. The regional airports programme supports safety and security measures. The funding goes towards those measures. Therefore, the question that needs to be asked is whether only funding security and safety measures will increase connectivity. What is the ask here? The ask is to ensure we are connected regionally and internationally. Thresholds might not be the best way forward if the purpose is to redirect traffic and have more people using our airports and the regions. I am asking the question.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Yes. There is a consultation that might feed into that.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Exactly. That is the context in which we need to consider airlines and airports. We need to look at the implication and outcome if the threshold is increased to 3 million passengers.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

There was discussion on Rotterdam, movements at a Dutch level, and their environmental considerations around noise. Is the Minister aware of the incredible situation that exists now at Dublin Airport as regards the north runway? It has been quite well covered in the media in recent days and weeks. We have had correspondence from this committee and the DAA regarding it. A situation has arisen whereby a planning application was submitted for the north runway, which included an assessment of the noise impact of aircraft movements. Houses were retrofitted and insulated on the back of that, according to plans, but the minute the runway opened, the aeroplanes went in a different direction. In the words of the DAA, some local communities were being unexpectedly overflown. That is an incredible situation.

I received a response on this in recent days from the DAA. It acknowledged that a small number of dwellings, which were previously on the verge of eligibility for retrofitting and insulation, were likely to become eligible as a result. In simple terms, some houses that were insulated are not impacted by the new north runway because their houses are not being flown over, while other houses that were not expected to be impacted, and people bought and built houses on the basis they would not be overflown, are now seeing numerous flights daily and hourly. It seems an incredible situation to have ended up in. It is the case and it is safe to say the DAA is now operating contrary to its own planning permission. Are the Minister and Department aware of this? What accountability, if any, will there be?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We are aware of it. I was briefed by officials earlier in the week. My understanding is one of the issues behind it is that, even since the planning permission was applied, aircraft are getting lighter and have slightly different characteristics. As they take off, they are able to turn earlier and at a lower height than had been originally projected. The characteristics of the aircraft allow them to do that. The DAA is now engaging with the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, to ensure that is reviewed. We obviously want to see aircraft return to the flight paths that were designated within the original planning permission. That process is a formal one whereby the IAA reviews the aviation safety regulatory approval that is needed. That process has commenced. The DAA has committed to resolving the problem as soon as possible.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is it appropriate that the DAA continues to operate in the meantime contrary to the planning permission it received?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Nothing is outside any of the safety or other protocols. That is obviously the first requirement in anything that is done in the aviation sector. The review process is being conducted with the DAA and IAA. They will conduct and conclude that process quickly. I do not expect this to be an ongoing problem.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Will there be an assessment? I have met with a number of the people living under the new flight paths and this issue is a daily problem for them. What accountability will there be here? It seems an incredible error to pursue a planning application only to realise on the day a welcome runway goes live that it operates in a completely different way.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

One other party involved is the noise regulator. The local authority has a specific regulator who also has a key role in the process. They will have a critical role. The processes are there to protect householders and the environment, be it from noise or other elements. That noise regulator has a central role, as do the airport authority and the IAA. As I said, as soon as this was notified as a problem, they engaged and will make decisions quickly.

Chairman

When will they report back to the Minister? When will the review be concluded?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It will not report to me. It is an independent body. I was briefed on that by the Department earlier in the week. I expect it will be very quick in carrying out its work. It is independent in its assessment.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I ask the Minister to take a personal involvement in it. I encourage the DAA and Fingal County Council to engage with residents affected by this because it is incredibly distressing for them.

Chairman

Maybe the committee can follow up on it.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

The committee can pick up on it as well.

Chairman

I will make a few key points. We are doing a review on national aviation. We welcome the fact that the regional airports programme is being reviewed. As regards increasing passenger numbers from 1 million to 3 million, is that the prerogative of an individual state?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It is. It would be a policy change here in Ireland if we did that.

Chairman

It is something I would very much promote. I cannot speak for the rest of the committee but it strikes me as a tool that could be utilised. The committee visited Schiphol Airport recently. It is considering noise. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, referred to another aspect in this regard. Do the Ministers foresee any situation in which the number of flights coming into Dublin Airport would be capped?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It is a liberalised aviation market here. We and the Department are open to this as part of the mid-term review in that regard. A decision will not be made on it until we have a consultation process------

Chairman

No, my question is very straightforward. Does the Department of Transport or the Minister envisage any situation where they would seek to cap the numbers flying into Dublin Airport?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

If there is a cap on the numbers coming into an airport, airlines will make commercial decisions. These are the consequences we need to consider. They may choose not to come to Ireland at all if there is a cap on the numbers coming into a certain airport.

Chairman

I am trying to make my point in a different way. The regional airports programme is clearly the lever to encourage further balanced regional development. The Minister spoke about the regional airports being used for safety. It allows them to use other funds for various other purposes, such as encouraging airlines to fly into their airports. The committee will take this into account. It may be a route in terms of balanced regional development whereby at least the regional airports can have further funds available to them. Shannon Airport received €4.347 million on the operational side. That is very positive. It is €1.3 million up from last year and that is very significant.

Ryanair appeared before the committee last week. It posed a number of questions in respect of aviation policy. They made the point that it all centres around the fact that we are an island nation on the periphery of Europe. The committee visited Schiphol Airport. Holland is very different from here. It has borders with all its European neighbours; Ireland does not. Michael O'Leary made the point that EU statistics show that aviation accounts for 2.8% of EU emissions, almost half that of shipping. In the context of aviation policy, connectivity and competitive air access are vital. If one of the biggest airlines in Europe is being heavily caught by the emissions trading system, ETS, but the long-haul flight airlines are not, is the current ETS model fair?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

As I stated, I would like to see it extended so that it covers long-haul flights. I do not believe that an industry should be exempt, however. Every industry will have to play its part.

Chairman

Does the Minister believe the ETS should be applied to all long-haul flights as well as short-haul flights?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, we should have a system for raising funding from aviation that helps us in the climate change battle and that should come from all flights.

Chairman

How can that be put into effect? The issue is that all short-haul flights within Europe are caught for the ETS tax but long-haul flights are not. How can the Government, through the Minister, effect change at European Commission level or another level so that the ETS tax is fair and it is spread across all airlines? Is that an issue on which the Minister will be proactive?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We are proactive at the European Council but we do not have jurisdiction over the US, Asia or other markets-----

Chairman

I accept that.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----and that is why one has to work with the ICAO or other international mechanisms. It is not just a European Union decision. One has to work with other Governments and those international systems to introduce some of the charges.

Chairman

How can that change be effected?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We have a seat on ICAO and on the United Nations, as well as at global conferences, such as the recent conference in Egypt, where we make our voice heard.

Chairman

Has the Minister raised the particular issue of spreading the ETS among all airlines, both short-haul and long-haul?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I cannot recall doing so directly. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, may have done so at a recent Council meeting, but not at the immediate council meetings.

Chairman

I ask the Minister to commit to raising that issue directly. There was a convention of EU tourism islands last weekend in Spain. Ryanair has come back to us on this. The Government of the Canary Islands rejected any new environmental tax on EU airlines. We can talk about the ETS and it being fair to spread the load but that can only happen if there are supports in place to facilitate it.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We have raised it, actually. At recent Council meetings we made such calls for broadening and deepening of the contribution made across all the aviation sectors. That is the position we have taken publicly.

Chairman

The committee requests that the Minister undertake further work with the European Commission and whoever else to resolve this matter. It is a recurring issue. We have a unique position as an island nation in terms of Europe. We do not have an overland link to the Continent. One cannot get a train from Ireland to the Continent or the UK. One can travel there by sea but I refer to the EU statistics on emissions in that regard. We ask the Minister to-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I will happily continue to pursue the matter.

Chairman

We visited Schiphol and Rotterdam airports. Rotterdam Airport was very interesting. It has solar panels around the perimeter of the airport that are now generating three times the amount of energy required to deal with activity at the airport itself. It is very progressive. I have no doubt the Minister will be very interested in this. Would he consider taking that up? We found it to be very much in the climate change space. We did not really got into the detail of how the airport sought planning. Is the Minister aware of that development at Rotterdam Airport?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes. All going well, the Government will agree the latest iteration of our climate action plan next week. That will include a major expansion and extension of solar power on the roofs of houses, barns on farms, and businesses. That will include the aviation sector, which is a perfect opportunity in that regard, with large hangar roofs and other possibilities. There are sensitivities and difficulties in the context of airfields, such as glimmer and so on but-----

Chairman

Directly around the perimeter of Rotterdam Airport there are solar panels as far as the eye can see. They have only just gone in. They are generating three times the energy requirements of the airport. I am not certain whether the airport can sell into the grid. We ask that such a scheme be considered.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

My understanding is that the DAA has already applied for planning permission in that regard. Shannon Airport is reviewing the potential for solar panels.

Chairman

The Minister referred to DAA. Is he satisfied that the plans of DAA for the Christmas period, from 15 December until 10 January, are adequate in terms of its capacity to deal with security arrangements? It seems that a tent remains erected outside terminal 1. That gives rise to concerns that DAA is expecting possible overflows and long queues during the Christmas period.

DAA is spending €200 million on a tunnel under a runway. Michael O'Leary and others have stated that the project does not provide value for money or make sense.

What is the Minister of State's view on both of those points? Is she happy with the assurance on the DAA? The number of security staff, 645, is a long way below the number it said it would have in place, which was 800. Is she satisfied that the tent is still erect outside terminal 1, which is a cause of concern? Is she satisfied that it will be able to deal with the increasing numbers? Ryanair is saying it will see a 12% increase in numbers over the Christmas period. Is the Minister of State satisfied that adequate security officer resources are in place?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I meet representatives of the DAA every week. They have reassured me everything is under control. The proof of that is the movement of passengers through the airport, particularly through security. Last weekend, 100% of passengers went through security in under 30 minutes. We are appearing before the committee to give the most up-to-date figures.

Chairman

We will be following up with the DAA again as a committee.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It has a task force in place and contingency plans if needed. It has overtime.

I have been very clear that we do not want to have passengers standing out in the overflow marquee in the winter period. There were passengers moving through it. There was a free flow of passengers through it last weekend.

Chairman

Why is the marquee still there?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It is there as a contingency, if needed, but I have been very clear to the DAA that we do not want to see passengers standing out in the cold. They have not been. This comes down to the waiting period, which is less than 30 minutes. That is 100% of passengers-----

Chairman

November is typically much quieter than December. I ask for vigilance in this area. We will soon be in a post-Covid era, although we are still not out of it. There will be many people travelling-----

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I am meeting senior management every week because we do not want a repeat of what happened.

Chairman

Does the Government support the €200 million tunnel under the runway that they DAA is involved in?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

That is a matter for the DAA. The haulage industry, which I have met, is very keen to have the tunnel go ahead. They need it because it takes extra time to travel around the perimeter. I can appreciate that there are different viewpoints but we have an ecosystem in respect of our supply chain and getting passengers, including businesspeople, in and out of the airport. We need to ensure our goods are moving across the country as quickly and efficiently as possible. The haulage sector has been calling for the tunnel to be progressed.

Chairman

I have two local questions for the Minister. With regard to the Limerick northern distributor road, the Limerick metropolitan area transport plan was finally published. At our briefing with NTA representatives in recent days, I asked whether they interacted with the Minister and his Department to see whether there was a way forward. As the Minister is probably well aware, the Limerick northern distributor road was included in the initial draft. He issued an instruction or direction, or wrote a letter, to the NTA to take it out. Did he have discussions with the NTA? Why was he so resolute that the second leg of the northern distributor road would not go ahead, considering the position on first leg, into Moyross, and what it would bring in terms of public transport? Could you give me his views on that? Many people in Limerick saw the proposed route as a natural way of enhancing the public transport offering by bus along the corridor as well as facilitating cars.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I meet officials from the NTA regularly. I met them again last week. We discussed Limerick, among other transport issues. I am very glad we are progressing the new railway station at Moyross. I am very glad we have started work on the reopening of the Shannon–Foynes rail line. I am very glad that the NTA introduced new bus services to Limerick from the surrounding county, all in recent months.

Chairman

We are all glad about those; they are not mutually exclusive. In the limited time left, could the Minister state why he held his position on the second leg of the northern distributor road? It is unparalleled to write to the NTA to tell it to take a project for the city and region out of a plan. The NTA staff are the professionals in the area.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, I did hold that position as Minister for Transport.

Chairman

Why?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Because I believe the future for Limerick is to develop based on investment in our public transport infrastructure rather than having Limerick spreading into County Clare in a way that could only be unsustainable.

Chairman

Surely the people of Limerick have a say in this. Did the Minister just look into his heart and determine what was best for the people of Limerick in the mid-west?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I had lengthy discussions with both the county and city management in Clare and Limerick-----

Chairman

Who were in favour of it.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes. I also had discussions with this committee on numerous occasions, along with officials and executives within the NTA.

Chairman

Was the Minister entitled to act as God regarding the Limerick northern distributor road?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is not a question of acting as God. One has a responsibility as Minister to take the actions one thinks are appropriate for the development of the transport system.

Chairman

If that is contrary to what the greater majority of people in the area believe is of benefit, even on a public transport basis-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I am not sure there was ever an opinion poll on that but if the people of Limerick were asked whether they welcome the introduction of the public transport infrastructure to the city-----

Chairman

Of course, they do.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

-----the changes that are taking place are profound. In my view, they are being made with the purpose of seeing Limerick grow faster-----

Chairman

The Limerick northern distributor road would have brought a complete public transport link. I welcome the fact that there is to be an upgrade of the Mackey Roundabout and Athlunkard Bridge; however, having regard to public transport completeness, was Deputy Eamon Ryan, even as Minister, entitled to make a unilateral decision contrary to the professional view of the professionals in the NTA?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The University of Limerick was one of the key drivers seeking to expand Limerick into County Clare. I disagreed with it on that. I said it to the president of the college.

Chairman

That is a separate issue.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

It is not. I would make this point-----

Chairman

Is the Minister entitled-----

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Am I entitled to make my point?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I met the university representatives recently and said they have an obligation to help deliver, with the council, the connection of the three universities in Limerick through a high-quality bus corridor and cycling infrastructure. Those, rather than the northern distributor road, will be to the benefit of the colleges and the city of Limerick.

Chairman

The northern distributor road would have allowed the Minister to link public transport between TUS, formerly Limerick Institute of Technology, and the University of Limerick. Even as Minister for Transport, was Deputy Eamon Ryan entitled to make a unilateral decision contrary to the professional advice of the NTA?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I was backed up by the professional advice of TII, which is the body responsible for developing road infrastructure. If I recall rightly, it described the proposal as a mad proposal.

Chairman

I do not remember seeing that.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I do.

Chairman

The Minister would want to show evidence for that. I have never seen it. All I know is that the NTA basically said it wanted to see the route, as did the people of Limerick. The Minister made a unilateral decision with which I fundamentally disagree. It is unparalleled for a Minister to have made such a direction to the NTA.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Bearing in mind the scale of change to be made in transport, I agree with the assessment of the OECD, an independent international expert, on the direction we are taking in this country and the need for what it called a systemic change towards a much more sustainable transport model. I believe its analysis is correct. The northern distributor road would have been a continuation of a sprawl-based, car-dependent transport model that ill serves our people.

Chairman

Does the Coonagh–Knockalisheen road not have a bus lane? It does. We will agree to differ on this matter. I have a view on it as a public representative for Limerick.

Will the annual road allocations of TII, normally made towards the end of December, go ahead this year? There was over €600 million last year.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We will be making the allocation as set out in the national development plan. Vital expenditure on roads will continue. We are in the middle of discussions as part of the climate action plan. The transport section of this presents the biggest challenge. We need to halve our emissions this decade and get to net zero in three decades.

Chairman

Will there be an announcement on the roads budget before Christmas?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

First and foremost, I need to get agreement on our climate action approach, and that will frame what we do on road investment.

Chairman

Is the Minister saying he might not make the announcement on the roads budget until the new year, or 2023?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The decisions on that are contingent on what we decide regarding the climate action plan.

Chairman

That means local authorities throughout Ireland, which normally get their allocation before Christmas, may not get it this year.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The vast majority of projects in the road programme will continue. Projects already in construction and with planning permission have to proceed.

The exact allocation of TII within its budget is agreed and our overall approach is agreed. I believe it is important for us to reflect at this critical moment, as we agree a climate action plan which requires change beyond a scale that anyone can imagine. Included in that is a reassessment of what we really need to prioritise within our roads programme to make sure we get the best benefit from it.

Chairman

I ask that the Minister make the allocation before Christmas. That has been the tradition for as long as I can remember, so the local authorities can get on with their work. If this drags on into the new year, it can cause a huge degree of uncertainty at ground level. I ask the Minister to bear that in mind.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

As I said, we will of course make sure we work with the local authorities but we also need change coming up from the bottom around the country. We cannot ignore climate change.

Chairman

No one is.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We cannot ignore the change that is needed. We cannot just keep on going with business as usual and pretend nothing is happening, when transport emissions are likely to increase this year by a double-digit figure.

Chairman

Even with climate change, roads will still be a feature. We cannot get rid of every car from the roads overnight. That is not going to happen.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

No, we will not.

Chairman

I ask for common sense in this regard.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The OECD report is right. We need system change, not just staying the way it always was.

Chairman

Rather than doing something at a dead point now, the Minister would be better off bringing people with him. I ask him to announce the roads budget before Christmas to give certainty the length and breadth of Ireland. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Before we move back to aviation policy, when TII was in front of us, its representatives said it was not straightforward to introduce mitigations around the tolls. Where are we with that? Does the Minister foresee difficulties or does he think it will be possible to deliver?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I think it will be possible to deliver. There is complexity because it involves eight private contracts with PPP arrangements but I expect we will be able to deliver that.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Go raibh maith agat. I will move on. In fairness, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, said she does not foresee any major difficulties over Christmas, and that her engagements with the airlines and the DAA suggest everything looks like it should be okay.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

We will continue to monitor it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I have no doubt. A question put by Willie Walsh and also by representatives of Ryanair when they were at the committee was in regard to open skies. It was thrown out in regard to some of the difficulties that exist. Where are the conversations around being able to do this, even at a European level? The big win would be the 20% reduction in fuel use because of being able to travel in a straight direction and, beyond that, it was stated that 90% of late flights or difficulties like that would be avoided.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I attended the EU transport Council meeting yesterday in Brussels and the issue of the single European skies was raised. It needs the agreement of member states. Ireland is in favour. I know Ryanair was before the committee recently and very much advocated for this. I made a statement on behalf of the Irish Government that we are in favour of this and we are working with the Commission to try to engage with other member states and make our position clear. Ireland and like-minded member states have made our position on the single European skies clear. We urge member states, the Commission and the Parliament to prioritise agreement on this file. Such agreement can make a real difference to airspace users by increasing capacity, reducing delays and costs and, crucially, reducing emissions through more integrated air traffic management. This is one of the key areas in that the level of emissions reductions we can get from the single European skies is critical. It is ambitious but we are working with the Commission in that regard. Certainly, from Ireland's point of view, we are in favour of it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I can see why we would be. Obviously, not every state is necessarily going to be in that place, so it is something we will have to keep on the agenda while accepting there may be difficulties in regard to delivering it. The wins are fairly obvious.

I accept what the Minister is saying in regard to the international mechanisms from the point of view of delivering what we might call a more equitable means of operating aviation taxes on long-haul flights and so on. Would it be fair to say there is no real conversation happening on this or that it is fairly minor, and that we are a long way from any of this being resolved or of deals being done, or whatever else is necessary?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Any of the discussions I have had with other governments, including the US Government and others, were not in the public sessions. However, there was a recognition that such is the urgency around the need to take climate action that I would not rule it out. At least to have a system that is truly global means that comparative competitive disadvantages would not start to arise. I think it is a possibility. This goes back to a quote from Mary Robinson, who made the point that if 4.5 billion tickets are sold each year, then €1 on each ticket would give quite a significant fund, and an ongoing fund, for the likes of loss and damage payments, which are needed in our world and are agreed upon. I think it is a real possibility. We certainly should be on the side of pushing for such climate justice, and we will.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Definitely. If it is equalised, as the Minister said, it deals with some of the complaints that exist in the aviation industry in Europe in this regard.

Beyond that, a big issue that is raised is in regard to sustainable aviation fuel. There are two points, the first of which is where Government policy is in regard to moving this question on and, second, where the European Union is in regard to delivering a solution. My understanding is there is a need for major engagement with energy providers because this is not a straightforward process and it is probable that many companies are only going to engage if it is worth their while. We all want to see technological breakthroughs but it could be a number of years before we have alternatives to this.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that the Department last year provided funding of €200,000 for further research into the development of sustainable aviation fuels. My understanding of how this will work in Europe is that there will be flexibility at first. It will not be the same for every airport, airline and country and it will be possible for airlines to purchase fuels across markets, and to be flexible as to how the targets are met.

With regard to Europe in general, what President von der Leyen said here last week is true. Europe is betting the entire European economic strategy on this new Green Deal. We are going to invest in decarbonisation and be very ambitious when it comes to decarbonisation. That will impact the aviation sector like every other.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The Minister believes that, as much as there may be a difficulty at this point, we will have a plentiful supply and there will not be supply chain issues. Does he believe the necessary conversations will happen, even with those corporate entities that are involved in delivering this?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

In the short run, in the next decade, as I said, it is likely to be the use of waste oils, waste materials, food and other materials. There are issues around that and, globally, there have been real issues about land-use implications and how we can verify and be certain that waste cooking oil is not coming from a palm oil plantation. Nonetheless, that is likely to be the first step. The second major step towards other technological developments, including those like hydrogen, as mentioned by Deputy O'Rourke, is likely to be into the next decade. However, I believe that is where it will and must go as part of the decarbonisation of aviation, given the scale of fuel that we need could not be made by the likes of waste oil products. That will most likely be an interim technology as we move towards other synthetic, hydrogen-based fuels.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I agree that what we are talking about is an interim solution and the best-case scenario is that the technological breakthroughs are made in hydrogen or whatever other technology. I assume the Minister has had considerable interaction with research facilities and so on. What timeline is looking for to have this? I suppose I am asking a question that requires the Minister to look into a crystal ball to some degree.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The timeline for the development of our own hydrogen supplies is the end of this decade, but scaling up in the following decade. One of the real questions we have is, where is it likely to be applied? First, it will be in large industrial use, and probably transport next. That is why I keep going back to the Shannon Estuary and Cork Harbour being the potential sites because what we would have to look for in making strategic investment decisions down the line is where would we get the hydrogen production and where would we get the refinery capabilities. There is a limited number of sites for that, usually with a deepwater port and brownfield industrial access sites. It is early in the next decade when we would start to see that happen at scale.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The Minister said it will be early in the next decade. However, he sees in the meantime that we will be able to deal with sustainable aviation fuel. Even in a European context, will we have a decent supply chain? Is all the necessary work being done on that?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes. That is the first, more immediate step. In effect, it is the use of waste materials for blended biofuels.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is making sure then, as the Minister said, in land use, that one is not displacing, and all those other difficulties that can happen. I thank him.

Chairman

Finally, on the emissions trading system, ETS, tax, Ryanair representatives appeared before the committee. Is that system being used to promote sustainable fuels in that area in the aviation sector?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Not in our use of ETS. Some governments in Europe might do that, but no.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The example given was that the Dutch use that money as a means of subsidising sustainable aviation fuel, SAF.

Chairman

Is it something that the Minister has considered? Am I correct that it is €140 million?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We have not used it in that way. We use the carbon tax revenue in that way, but not the ETS revenue.

Chairman

Is it something that the Minister would consider on the basis of promoting the use of sustainable fuels? At this stage, most people agree on the main points. We all may differ on how to get there but everyone agrees we must move towards carbon-free fuels. Is it an area that the Minister would consider putting money into?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I think we should. As I said, a key part of this new aviation strategy has to be around decarbonisation, including looking at the revenues.

Chairman

Is it something the Minister is open to?

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Yes, indeed.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I am conscious of time for both himself and the Minister of State.

We will continue our deliberations. It is something the Minister and the Minister of State will be interested in. We look forward to the review of the State airports programme and then feeding into the national airports strategy.

I thank the Minister and Minister of State and their officials for assisting with this important matter and wish them all a happy Christmas.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.53 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 14 December 2022.