Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 1930

Vol. 13 No. 28

Electoral (Dublin Commercial) Bill, 1930—Second Stage.

Question proposed: " That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is the machinery Bill for dealing with the preparation of the special register in connection with the special commercial franchise and for the carrying out of the elections. There are three main points dealt with in this Bill. In the first place, the City Manager and Town Clerk will be the registration officer. He will have the responsibility of satisfying himself, when a claim is made for inclusion on the register, that the statutory conditions are fulfilled. Sub-section (2) of Section 2 gives a clearer definition of persons entitled to vote. The Dublin City Manager and Town Clerk will be the registration officer. The register will only be prepared in the years in which it is to be used. It will be prepared in the same way as the ordinary local government register, that is to say, the date for qualification will be the 15th November and for publication 1st June. There will be corresponding dates for receiving claims, objections and hearing objections. When any point of difference arises between the registration officer and a claimant, it is proposed that the Circuit Court shall be the court finally to determine such claim.

It is clear that the time for the preparation of the first register will be very short, for the reason that it is anticipated that an election will be carried out before the end of September next. For that reason, there cannot be the same arrangements made for the preparation of the first register as for its preparation in subsequent years. What is proposed is that persons who, under the terms of the Local Government Act, would have been entitled on 1st July to inclusion on the register, will be included on it, subject to their making a claim. In the preparation of the register, except as regards the first one, there will be the usual house-to-house canvass. The responsibility for the preparation of the register will be on the registration officer. It will not be possible to have a house-to-house canvass for the preparation of the first register, but the work of building it up is being carried on, as far as possible, at present. There will be publication of the fact that the register is being prepared. Persons entitled to be on it, and desirous of getting on it, will have to make their claim. There will be, first of all, publication of the first lists. Later there will be dates for receiving claims and objections. As far as the time at our disposal will allow, the greatest possible length of time will be given for the carrying out of these operations. The second schedule deals with the conduct of elections. It follows the practice of the ordinary law. The third schedule deals with the counting of votes, and is similarly adapted from existing legislation.

I do not want to say anything in regard to the details of this Bill as I am opposed to it on principle. There is one matter on which I would like the Minister to give us some information. I notice that the City Manager is to be the returning officer. Is he also to be the returning officer as regards the election of the other members of the Council, and if not, why is the change proposed? The electorate in this case will be a very limited one, while the number of people to be elected is small. Therefore, it seems undesirable, if it could be avoided, that the City Manager who will be so closely associated with the government of the City, should also be the returning officer for the election of these five or six representatives. I should like to know from the Minister what is the object in having him as the returning officer, because the arrangement proposed seems a rather unusual one.

I regret that I was not able to be present to hear the Minister's statement in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. I would like to refer to two statements that were made in this House quite recently. I feel it would be a pity to let them pass into oblivion without making a brief reference to them. In the official Report of the Seanad for the 4th-5th June, 1930, column 1398, I find that Senator Bagwell is reported to have said: " On the whole the higher the valuation the better the brains." What an ideal headline such a statement as that makes for the copy books for the children of the future. The Senator's statement, like the pilfering of Tut's tomb, takes us back to the mysteries of the past, revealing why it was and how it was that the Dublin Corporation, previous to the Reform Act of 1840, was called the "rotten Corporation." The statement, too, reveals how it was that none were elected to the Corporation except they were qualified as, and were grandiloquently known as, merchant princes.

But the Annals of Dublin burst the bubble of these princes. These are the moonlighters and the highwaymen—I say these things advisedly—these are the cut-throats and genteel scoundrels who posed as men of assumed respectability and as men of wealth and men of class distinction. The Annals of Dublin tell us that they posed as bigots both in religion and in politics, and the principal asset that they possessed was that they were Freemasons. The Annals of Dublin reveal that these sparking-plugs of infamy were able to cheat the citizens of their property. To bear out what I am stating, there can be seen any day in the Corporation leases the names of these princely robbers, of whose interest the Minister is now so careful, still adorning some of our streets—those people who deliberately robbed the citizens of their property, because they were on a moneyed register such as we are here to-day proposing. Anyone reading the statement of Senator Bagwell would come to the conclusion that he is a deeply read man. Anyone who did not know that there were some solemn and sensible people in this Seanad would come to the conclusion that we were all a lot of duds if we swallowed this piffle.

There was another statement made, and it is strange how some people squeal when the shoe pinches. Senator Sir John Keane said influences are at work to prevent us from acting in an independent manner. Really, I think that was a gross reflection on members of the Seanad. It took us back, perhaps, to the days when knights were bold, and the Senator, if he is an honourable man —I am sure he is, he is not here today—will explain what he means. It is statements like these general statements which were hurled time after time at the old Corporation, and if statements like these about the Seanad are not at once nipped in the bud I fear the Minister will be compelled to send Commissioners in here and then what will happen? Why, it is awful to contemplate. Our salaries stopped, our occupation, like Othello's, gone, and our holidays lengthened!

As to this commercial franchise, it had its being and has got its name from that abode of rest known as the Commercial Buildings, Dame Street, Dublin—a place which is availed of mostly by agents who have turned the City of Dublin into a dumping ground and a distributing centre for foreign goods. A little bird tells me that in this particular abode of rest certain company meetings were hatched and invested a great deal of their shareholders' money in gramophones.

I still hold that this commercial franchise is insidious and dangerous. It is, as I have said already, a direct invitation to the Communists to come on. It is the resurrecting of class distinction in its worst form, by money, because it increases the power or votes of the moneyed class. I found that stated in the Annals of Dublin in the year 1840. It is a very old saying that it is difficult for the leopard to change his spots. This franchise is giving six votes to the rich man and one vote to the poor man. The Minister has already lectured me on that statement, signifying more or less that I was in error. I may not have the choice language of the Minister, but I always call a spade a spade. This money register is an insult to the citizens of Dublin. The citizens of Dublin are considered capable as a whole of electing representatives to the Dáil to legislate for the State, but the Government, through the Minister for Local Government, consider that the citizens as a whole are not capable, of electing municipal representatives except they have a number of what I might call "pow-wows" with large banking accounts sandwiched in between them. It may be my ignorance of the Bill, but I have yet to learn what these choice specimens of humanity are to be called. Are they to be known as aldermen? Surely they could not be called councillors? That would be too mean. May I suggest to the Minister as a little amendment that it would be more correct if he called them bishops and supplied them with a special prie-dieu to prevent them from mixing with those elected by the common people. I go a little further and suggest to the Minister that he might have a phrenologist's chart hanging over each showing the complement of brains each possessed according to his valuation and then men of the type of Senator Bagwell would be in their glory.

The Minister in dealing with a few mild remarks I made before with reference to this franchise took me severely to task to the accompaniment of an amount of laughter from certain Senators, showing that it was their belief that democracy was on the run. They laughed at the statement made by the Minister on 28th May, 1930.

Cathaoirleach

I am sorry to intervene, but this is largely a speech upon the Local Government (Dublin) Bill. I think the Senator is really now criticising the Dublin Bill.

I always bow to the Chairman's rulings, having been a chairman myself for some considerable time.

Cathaoirleach

I should, like to give the Senator every opportunity, but his speech is largely one upon the Local Government (Dublin) Bill. We have already accepted the principle of that Bill and it is upon that Bill that the Senator's speech would have been really relevant. However, if the Senator will not continue too long I will let him proceed.

I shall not continue too long. As I say, having been a chairman for a long time myself, I would not like in any way to transgress the rules of debate or even the rules of decency and I shall be quite satisfied to shorten my remarks. The reason I am referring to what the Minister said in reply to remarks of mine on a former occasion is that this is the only opportunity I shall have. I certainly would not like to make the same speech over again.

Cathaoirleach

The Local Government (Dublin) Bill has not left this House yet.

Would it not be too late when it is passed for me to have my little say?

Cathaoirleach

You can proceed, Senator.

Thank you very much for your kind consideration. The Minister when referring to a few mild remarks of mine said: "Whatever the British Army, the Republican Army and the, soldiers have been fighting for for years past, it is the first time I ever heard they were fighting for one man one vote in local government franchise." No one admires the ability or the industry of the Minister more than I do, but, for the first time he has tripped. I did not state that the armies he has mentioned went out to fight for one man one vote in local government franchise. The Minister knows as well as any man in Ireland that there was no necessity for them to fight for one man one vote in local government franchise as it has been a long-established principle.

No, it was not. The Senator suggested the principle of one man one vote, implying, I take it, that every man and woman was to have a vote in local government franchise. The Senator implied that that principle of adult suffrage was established under the local government franchise for many years. I say that is not so.

I did not state that, and certainly what the Minister is after stating is news to me. I am one who always bows to superior judgment. What I did state was that the armies the Minister mentioned went out to leave the world safe for democracy, the main plank of which is one man one vote. I know I am treading on very dangerous ground in stating that the young men of Ireland who joined the Republican Army were cajoled into the belief that they were fighting for the establishment of an Irish Republic, and if they discovered instead that they were fighting to establish a commercial register of six votes for the rich man and one vote for the poor man no man in Ireland knows better than the Minister that there would have been a great many deserters and few recruits. I think it was Senator Douglas complained——

Cathaoirleach

I really must ask you, Senator, to confine yourself to the present Bill, the Electoral (Dublin Commercial) Bill and the machinery established by it. If you object to the machinery you can do so. I cannot have a re-hash of the Second Reading debate on the Local Government (Dublin) Bill.

I regret I cannot now deal with the point raised by Senator Douglas, but I will do so at some future date. One of the arguments in the Dáil in support of the Bill which we are now discussing was: What about Guinness's? What about Woolworth's? What about Burton's? And, if I might add, what about the moneylenders and the profiteers? Who built up Guinness's? Mainly the staff by their energy, and the workmen by their toil. What helped the Guinness family to amass millions and gain titles? Unhappily, it was the degradation of the lowly. Even so, have not Guinness's a tremendous voting power? Have they not from three to four thousand employees?

Cathaoirleach

This Bill gives them no voting power. It only provides machinery for the exercise of voting power. I hope the Senator will remember that fact. I am sorry to have to interrupt the Senator.

It is quite evident that I am unduly worrying the House.

Cathaoirleach

Not worrying.

I will conclude now with Guinness.

There was one matter which the Minister referred to in the course of his statement, and, if I understood him rightly, it means that in regard to the preparation of the first register there should be no duty upon the registration officer except to publish a notice for claimants, to make a list of claimants, and then, after the revision of the list, to issue it as the list of voters. Looking at the Second Schedule, if I have correctly interpreted the Minister, I find that for lists after the first list the registration officer shall prepare in the first instance a list of voters, that he shall also advertise for a list of claimants, and after due revision that list shall become the list of voters at the election. Of course, as the Minister has said, there will be some hurry about the preparation of the first list, but I do not think that hurry will be so great as to justify a public officer not making some attempt in the first instance, from the materials at his disposal, to prepare a list of voters as distinct merely from sending out notice for claimants. I think there are sufficient materials in the records of this city, in the valuation lists in possession of the rating authorities, as well as other books and records to enable the registration officer and the officials of the Minister to follow the ordinary course and prepare first a voters list, and, while they are preparing that list, to advertise for claimants, then to publish a list of claimants, and finally after a revision to issue a complete list. I think there is plenty of time to do that. In regard to what my friend, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, said, of course we all heard the argument that the greater the valuation the greater the brains. Really we are very patient here. Some of us are rather glad to hear expressions of that kind, and for my part I am glad to hear them, for when a thing like that is boasted about I rather come to the conclusion that the brains over the tongue are absent or empty. I am not offended in the same way as the Lord Mayor was offended. I like to hear them sometimes, as they do us good.

I would like to ask the Minister also to have regard to the fact that the City Manager, in addition to being returning officer, is also registration officer, having the actual preparation of the register on which the elections are held.

In carrying out the duties of returning officer in connection with the franchise the City Manager and Town Clerk will be discharging the same duties as he carries out under the ordinary local government franchise. So far as the position of the returning officer is concerned, there is no difference between the City Manager and the Town Clerk in his relationship with the electorate of the commercial franchise and the electorate of the ordinary local government franchise. The county registrar is the registrar for the ordinary local government franchise. The City Manager and Town Clerk will be the registration officer in regard to this franchise. The reason for that is that the City Manager and Town Clerk has the machinery that enables him to check in the most satisfactory possible way the framing of the register under this franchise and without having direct access to the records that the Town Clerk will have the county registrar could not do that, so the simplest, most direct and economical way to have the register prepared is to have it done by the City Manager and Town Clerk. I may also remark that the franchise for the Port and Docks Board is on a somewhat similar basis. The Town Clerk is also responsible for the preparation of that register.

In reply to Senator Comyn, the Local Government (Dublin) Bill contains provisions to secure that the election must be fixed for not later than 1st October. Senators will recollect what takes place with regard to the making up of the ordinary local government register which extends from the 15th November to the 1st June. That period is taken up with one operation or another. In so far as the Town Clerk and City Manager has materials at his disposal for making up this particular register, the only machinery he has at his disposal is the machinery he will operate in a normal year.

He has the rate books. addresses and descriptions of occupations.

The matter has been very thoroughly gone into with the city officials with a view to seeing whether we could not make more satisfactory arrangements than we have here. In fairness to the electorate on the one hand and the Town Clerk and his responsibilities on the other, we have come to the conclusion that it would not be reasonable to ask him to do more than we are asking him to do here. We put these franchise proposals before the Oireachtas, for we believe there is a demand for them and that in equity they ought to be provided, and I am interested to see what kind of demand will be made in the original set of claimants for appearance on this particular franchise. I do not know if the Senator realises that as well as the advertisements notifying the fact that the register was being made, giving the final date for claims, and the publication then of the register, there will be also a period for objections, a period for considering those objections, and the regular work of revision will be gone through, with as much time devoted to all that as can be spared considering the desirability of leaving the period in respect of which claims may be made as extended as possible between the date of the passing of these Bills and the holding of the elections not later than the 1st October. If it is suggested that the complete register must be prepared without putting some responsibility on the claimants, that would be too great a responsibility to put on the Town Clerk, and as there is no intermediate arrangement you could reasonably make, the Bill has been framed with the responsibility for making a claim being placed on the person entitled to appear on the register.

I do not know whether I understood the Minister rightly when he said in respect to the Port and Docks Board register that the Town Clerk was the registration officer. Is it not the Secretary of the Port and Docks Board?

The Town Clerk is responsible for doing all the original work. I made a mistake in suggesting that he was the registration officer, but so far as making the preparation of the first draft is concerned he is responsible. He has the material as a result of which the register can be prepared and it appears reasonable that we should make him the registration officer, seeing his staff is handling the whole thing.

I think on that point the analogy is against the Minister, because in the case of this new franchise in the Bill before us we must recognise that the City Manager's position is one of extraordinary power in relation to the Council, that is to say, in relation to persons to be elected, and in the conduct of preparing the register he could if he were so disposed use the register to affect a subsequent election. In view of the relations between the Council which will be elected and the City Manager and Town Clerk, it is not right, I think, that the City Manager and Town Clerk should have the actual executive work of preparing the register, and anything that the Minister says is only so far as could apply to the first register. It ought not to be continued after the first register, as is proposed in the Bill. I do not think it is justifiable. In any case, whatever the Minister said in defence of the proposal is only applicable to the first register. It seems to me to be placing the City Manager and Town Clerk in an extraordinarily powerful position, so that if he wished to misuse his power, as by a little oversight here and there, he could influence the character of the register. We ought not to legislate in that direction. If it is possible by any reasonable means we should have some alternative by which we could place a non-interested person in the position of registration officer.

I think in fairness the Senator ought to develop the point that the person in charge of the making up of the register can interfere with the complexion of that register.

I think it is easy to understand. If the first register is made up with a certain number of names and then if the onus is placed on a person who has been omitted though legitimately entitled under the Act to be placed on the register to seek application, you are limiting the number of that kind of person who will be left on in the long run. It is not an automatic entry to the register. The registration officer has to make up the register in the first instance, and it is then to be left to applicants and seekers of the franchise to make their case for entering on the register. I say that the fact of throwing the onus on the individual applicant is going to reduce the number of such applicants and shorten the register, or bias it in a particular direction, if the City Manager were so disposed.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 11.

  • Samuel L. Brown, K.C.
  • Miss Kathleen Browne.
  • R. A. Butler.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • Mrs. Costello.
  • John C. Counihan.
  • James G. Douglas.
  • J. C. Dowdall.
  • Michael Fanning.
  • Dr. O. St. J. Gogarty.
  • Sir John Purser Griffith.
  • Henry S. Guinness.
  • Major-General Sir William Hickie.
  • Right Hon. Andrew Jameson.
  • Cornelius Kennedy.
  • Thomas Linehan.
  • The McGillycuddy of the Reeks.
  • James McKean.
  • Seán Milroy.
  • William John Molloy.
  • James Moran.
  • Joseph O'Connor.
  • M.F. O'Hanlon.
  • Thomas Toal.
  • Richard Wilson.

Níl

  • Sir Edward Bellingham.
  • Michael Comyn, K.C.
  • Joseph Connolly.
  • William Cummins.
  • Thomas Foran.
  • Thomas Johnson.
  • Colonel Moore.
  • John T. O'Farrell.
  • L. O'Neill.
  • Siobhán Bean an Phaoraigh.
  • Séumas Robinson.
Question declared carried.

Cathaoirleach

It has been suggested that the Committee Stage be taken to-morrow.

Unless there is agreement it cannot be taken to-morrow. A number of amendments require to be put in and I would object to its being taken to-morrow.

There are one or two small amendments that I would like to see inserted myself.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 2nd July.

Perhaps the House could arrange to have the final stages taken immediately after the Committee Stage on Wednesday next.

Top
Share