Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 1931

Vol. 14 No. 9

Public Business. - Public Health (Special Expenses) Bill, 1930—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (General Mulcahy)

Under the existing legislation public expenditure in connection with the installation of new sewerage works, new waterworks or extensions of such works has to be related to a fairly wide area of charge so that there may be suitable security for the loans. At the present moment an area of charge can be fixed for a townland, a dispensary district, a rural district or, in certain cases where the local sanitary authority so resolves, the expenditure may be borne over the whole of the county board of health district. The experience is that the smaller towns are the places where works of this particular nature are required and the valuations of the smaller towns are such that the area of charge has to be extended over a pretty considerable area of agricultural land. There is a flat rate over that area and the result is that the area that immediately benefits is charged only the same rate as the hereditaments situated in the farthest part of the area of charge, which may be over either a rural district or a dispensary district.

When I came into touch with this problem I thought the most desirable thing would be to get county councils to make the county board of health area the area of charge for all these works. That was done only in one area. The county councils are not, to a certain extent, tending to travel in that direction at the present time and, personally, I am rather inclined to change my mind as to the desirability of making this charge a county-at-large charge, a flat charge over the county board of health district, for the reason that, when the charge is over the county district, local areas, because the charge is going to be fairly wide-flung, are rather extravagant in their demands.

The present Bill makes it possible to do two things. It makes it possible for the county council to agree that they will levy a small charge, a fraction of a penny, over the county health area as a whole with a view to contributing an annual grant towards paying off the loan charges. That will be of considerable assistance in these matters. In the second place, it provides that where an area of charge is being set up it may be divided into an area-of-charge proper and a sub-area of charge, so that in the case of a town like Gort, where at present there are proposals to carry out a work running into £2,868, if it has to be borne entirely by the rural districts it would mean a rate of 2¾d.; if borne by the dispensary district, a rate of 6¾d., and if borne by the town itself, a rate of 5/-. These charges for the benefit of the town of Gort would put a fairly substantial charge over a rural district which, it might be argued, did not derive even a remote advantage from the scheme. If, on the other hand, the county council agreed to give a contribution of £300 a year towards the loan charges, involving only a fraction like one-sixth of a penny in the pound over the county health area, then it would mean ½d. on the rural district as a whole and 1/- on the town in order to give Gort the scheme it wants. That is a sample of what the Bill sets out to do.

The principle generally will be agreed upon that the area immediately benefiting ought to contribute at a higher rate than the agricultural land which happens to be in the dispensary or the rural district. It is an advisable thing that county authorities would assist those schemes from the county at large charge. In giving assistance of this particular kind it will be possible for any county assisting whatever number of schemes it may decide to assist to raise a rate not greater than 1½d. in the pound or, with the sanction of the Minister, not greater than 3d. in the pound. The raising of a rate over the county area as a whole will be entirely within the discretion of the local authority. Considering the problems that arise in the case of smaller towns we in the Department and those engaged on local government work in various parts of the country think that this will be of assistance to them.

Mr. Wilson

Those members of the Seanad who are not conversant with the system of rating in this country and who wonder at the farmers asking for de-rating of agricultural land, will learn something from this Bill about the ramifications of the rating authorities in the past and the inspirations that will probably affect rating authorities in the future. The areas that benefited most by those necessary services in the past have not been made pay for them. As the Minister has explained, the charges were placed upon the dispensary district in which the town was situated, or upon the whole district area, as the case might be. The Minister now proposes to place the charge over the whole county. It must be remembered that already necessary services have been established in many parts of the country. The suggestion is now made that there should be a new tax placed upon the people who have already carried out the requirements of the law in so far as water supply schemes and sewerage schemes are concerned. I will give the Seanad an example. The residents of Cloughran are paying for the Malahide water supply; they will be paying also for the Swords lighting and probably for the lighting of Malahide as well. If anybody in Rathcoole wants a drainage scheme the man in Cloughran will have to contribute to that, too, possibly to the extent of 3d. in the pound. Surely he ought not to be held liable for the Rathcoole drainage scheme any more than a resident in Dublin City, or any resident of the State as a whole. Take the case of Kilcoole, one of the watering places along the sea coast. The people there want a water supply. Under the Minister's scheme Baltinglass, which lies right across the Wicklow hills, will have to pay for the Kilcoole water supply, which will largely be of benefit only to the citizens of Dublin who go down there to bathe. This is the scheme which the Minister in all seriousness asks us to adopt.

We are waiting for the report of the De-rating Commission. Senators who may be opposed to the de-rating of land will understand from what I have said that there is a good case to be made out for the farmers who want de-rating. The Press has never yet published a single argument from the farmer's side. The papers devote two or three columns to the speech of the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, who argued how unjustifiable de-rating would be, but they do not give a line to the other side of the case. It has taken the Commission close upon a year to come to a decision, and probably when the report is issued it will not be unanimous.

If the Minister is so solicitous about the welfare of the small towns there are two ways in which he can settle the matter. He can, for instance, double the rateable value of the towns. I will give my experience of a town in which I was interested some years ago, the town of Rathdrum. I am aware that three or four of the farmers living outside the town paid more in rates than the whole town of Rathdrum. The townspeople wanted to place the cost of a water supply scheme on the farmers in the neighbourhood. They already had one water supply scheme, and after fifteen years that scheme was paid for, but the gentlemen in the town complained that they could not get water at a sufficiently high pressure for their bathrooms. The result was that they wanted to rope in the farmers to pay for a second scheme at a cost of £7,000. The highest rated house in Rathdrum—a shop, public-house, grain store, and a wool-buying department; a whole corner block— had a poor law valuation of £24. The smallest farmer outside the town was valued for that much. The man who owned that corner house could make £10,000 a year if he liked, but all the farmer who lived outside the town could make was a living. We opposed that scheme, and we were successful in our opposition. The result of the whole thing was that there was 2/6 placed on the town, ½d. on the county-at-large, and ¾d. on the district area. If we could do that under the existing law where is the necessity for this Bill? Was it an illegal arrangement? It was done six years ago.

In my opinion, the rateable valuations of the houses in our towns are altogether out of date. If the Minister does not like to increase the valuations he can give a State subsidy. If he is so solicitous for the townspeople let him place one-eighth, one-tenth, or one-twentieth on the public-at-large, and he should not be asking the poor fellows in the country, who may be miles away from the town, to pay for schemes that benefit only the town. One farmer near Rathdrum wanted a supply of water and they tried to charge him £5 a year for ever for the supply. I hope that the Seanad does not agree with this Bill.

Mr. Connolly

I have a great deal of sympathy with all Senator Wilson has said, and I have a great deal of sympathy with the Minister in the difficulty he experiences in providing proper water supplies and sewerage schemes throughout the country. It seems to me that some effort might be made on the Committee Stage, if the Minister were agreeable, to establish a definite basis for striking rates on an area of charge in such a form that the area that would immediately benefit would be taxed in proportion to its capacity. Possibly a certain rate might be struck on the rateable occupiers in the immediate vicinity, and the balance then could be borne by the State. The main feature of this Bill is that it sets out obviously to rectify the existing needs in relation to water supplies and sewerage schemes. So far as I can see, the Bill will leave us practically no better off than we are to-day. I cannot see the different county councils being agreeable to strike these rates. Failing such action on the part of the county councils I do not see how the schemes are likely to be developed. It is for that reason I think some more equitable system of rating should be arranged that would secure that what the Minister has in mind would be achieved and that there would be an inducement to the county councils to proceed with such schemes. The alternative would seem to be that the Minister should take compulsory powers to insist on these schemes being carried out. I do not know how we would approach that problem or whether the Minister would be inclined to take such powers and to insist that where necessary sewerage and water schemes must be carried out, and councils would be forced to inaugurate those schemes and strike a rate for the purpose. There does not seem any likelihood otherwise of making any progress towards the establishment of proper water supply and sewerage schemes throughout the country.

What Senator Wilson has said might be taken into account and there might be some modification made in Committee with regard to a definite area of charge over which charges might be made. If comprehensive schemes for an entire county were worked out, then the county-at-large might be accepted as the area of charge, but the rate for towns which would be most likely to benefit should be increased in proportion to the advantage that would be gained by each town. These schemes could be worked out on a county basis and they could be taken consecutively or in the order that the Minister's Department would decide. That would ensure that the requirements in the matter of sewerage and water supply could be covered, while at the same time the ratepayers in the area would not suffer any hardship such as they might be likely to suffer under this Bill. As Senator Wilson has pointed out, at the present time a man may be paying for benefits to a small town fifteen or twenty miles away from where he is living. Taking the county councils as they are, it is hardly likely that they will be disposed to strike rates for one particular area. The representatives from all the other areas will be present and their consent is necessary for the striking of the rate. I think the most advisable course is either the taking of compulsory powers by the Minister or the setting up of comprehensive county schemes whereby the charge could be equitably distributed over the whole county.

Mr. Staines

There is nobody in the House who has more sympathy with the farmers than I have, but I think that they are very short-sighted on this question of waterworks and sewerage schemes. Senator Wilson has referred to County Wicklow and County Dublin, and I will confine myself to those counties. I will take the town of Greystones as an example. Before the Vartry water supply was connected there, there was practically no town. When the water supply scheme was completed houses were built and the valuations increased. Who benefited by the increased valuations? I say that the people all over Wicklow county benefited. The people in Baltinglass benefited just as well as the people of Kilcoole, Newcastle, or anywhere else. They got more money in rates from Greystones than was the case before the water supply was connected there. The whole of County Wicklow would also benefit if Kilcoole or Newcastle had a water supply, and it is quite a simple thing to give those two places a water supply. Let us take Lucan, which is eight miles from Dublin, the capital of the Free State. It is an absolute disgrace that there is no water supply and no sewerage scheme in Lucan. I suppose that Lucan at the present time has one of the best tram services in the country—as good as any on the Dublin United Tramways Company's system. If a good water supply is given to Lucan you will open up the whole district from Chapelizod to Lucan; you will have people building along there and these buildings in time will be liable to rates. Who will benefit from such a scheme? The whole County Dublin will benefit.

There is another point that seems to be overlooked by farmers. Suppose a town like Gort or Tuam suffered from a disease epidemic, is that epidemic going to be confined to the town? It is not; it is going to spread and farmers may lose, perhaps, a son or a daughter. In the last analysis the farmer will have to pay his share of the maintenance of the people in the fever hospitals. I think this Bill should be allowed to go through. It is largely a question of arrangement about the amount of money that should be paid by the people who will benefit. Senator Wilson says that the people in the country will not benefit. I say they will benefit. I believe that where water is supplied there should be a special charge for every house that gets a water supply. That will do away with a good deal of the cost that has to be borne by the rates.

Mr. Duffy

In my opinion this Bill supplies a long-felt want in the country. I happen to be a member of a board of health in one of the neighbouring counties and I know the difficulties we are faced with in trying to provide up-to-date sanitary and water supply schemes in the various villages of our county. I believe if it were not for some such provision as is made in this Bill a great number of our villages would remain indefinitely without any of the ordinary amenities of civilisation. I do not agree with Senator Wilson, who represents the farming community, when he says that the farmers have no interest in the villages or towns. I hold that they have a very intimate interest in the villages and towns. If a town or village is lighted up at night, the scheme of lighting facilitates the country farmer just as much as it facilitates the people of that town or village.

Take any small town in the country. It is surrounded by a rural area. The people living in that rural area find it necessary, many times during the year, to visit that small town. It is because the people in the rural area do so that it is in existence at all. They help to keep it going. The farmers in the district market their produce there. They also go there perhaps to see a picture, to witness a football match, or attend some kind of amusement. Surely when people visit these small towns it is desirable that good water supplies and decent sanitary arrangements should be available. I think it is rather a backward move on Senator Wilson's part to attempt to retard the carrying out of the improvements indicated in these small towns and villages through the country.

There is another point that ought to be considered. It is now admitted by medical authorities that diseases spring up in congested areas where you have bad sanitary arrangements. Disease spreads out from these badly drained villages and towns to the rural parts. The tendency amongst medical authorities at the present day is to prevent infection amongst the people in a particular district. An outbreak of disease may occur in some of the big cities on the other side and may possibly be traced back to some district here from which foodstuffs were supplied. We know that attempts in that direction used to be made in the case of foot and mouth disease. If such a thing occurred it would be a very serious matter for the people engaged in the export of foodstuffs or farm produce. I hold it is to the interests of the farmers themselves to preserve a clean bill of health in the rural areas.

This Bill provides the only method I know of for enabling local authorities to raise the necessary money for the provision of water supplies and sanitary arrangements in many small villages throughout the country. It applies also, of course, to seaside places, in one of which I am particularly concerned. I congratulate the Minister on having introduced the Bill, and hope it will be passed.

General Mulcahy

I wonder if Senator Wilson was a member of the Wicklow County Council when this excellent arrangement to which he refers with regard to Rathdrum was made?

Mr. Wilson

No. I would not have been guilty of such an irregularity.

General Mulcahy

There is no force put on any county council to raise a county-at-large charge in respect of these schemes. We hope that may be done, but even without it the fact that we will be able to differentiate between an area immediately benefited and a contiguous area will be of great help in getting some schemes that are already proposed through.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage fixed for Thursday, 12th March.