Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Dec 1931

Vol. 15 No. 5

Surplus from Sweepstakes and Housing the Working Classes.

Mr. Foran

I beg to move: —

That, in the opinion of the Seanad, proposals for legislation should be introduced by the Executive Council for the purpose of making part of the surplus from sweepstakes promoted under the Public Charitable Hospitals Acts, 1930 and 1931 available for the clearance of insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes.

I want it to be clearly understood that I have no desire to covet the funds due to the voluntary hospitals through the sweepstakes. I want also to make it clear that in my opinion it is the duty of the State to provide healthy homes for the people. While believing that, I realise that the slum problem in this country has grown to such alarming proportions that it is almost beyond the power of the State to deal with it. The slum problem is not a problem of yesterday; it is a problem that goes back very many years. No real, genuine attempt has ever been made to grapple with the real slum problem, particularly in this City. Attempts have been made in a small way.

After years of experience and consideration of the slum problem, I am thoroughly convinced that there is no possible hope of ever adequately dealing with it by means of borrowed money. Borrowed money makes the rent so high that no regular slum dweller can possibly hope to pay it. I will give the Seanad an instance of how this thing operates. The Dublin Corporation have built a considerable number of houses, the rents of which range from 14/- to 17/- a week. In order to get one of these houses there must be at least six persons in the family.

The average wage of a Dublin worker is in the neighbourhood of 50/- a week. Take 15/- from that and you have left less than 6/- per head for each member of the family to provide all the necessaries of life. The occupier cannot possibly pay the rent and feed the family properly; the family cannot be supported. At least 10/- off the weekly rent goes to pay interest on borrowed money. So long as we have to build houses on borrowed money there is no possible hope — and I am sure this is obvious to everybody here — of dealing with the slum problem.

Recently we passed a Bill dealing with housing and the clearance of insanitary areas. That Bill has many admirable features. The section empowering the local authority to clear insanitary areas is a very valuable one. Its value, however, is entirely lost because of the important essential, finance. A Senator who spoke here yesterday in regard to housing told us that the local authorities in his area would not increase the rates sufficiently to meet the requirements of the housing problem in that area. I think the Senator was indicating the views of most councils in the country. They say they cannot afford to increase the rates.

The financial position of the world is in such a chaotic condition that in order to borrow money one has to pay a very enhanced rate of interest, 7 per cent. or so. I think in those circumstances it is obvious that we cannot make any decent impression on the slum problem through borrowed money.

I see an excellent opportunity of getting money free of interest to help to solve the problem. Some people may cavil at sweepstakes and regard them as a form of gambling and as immoral. Is it not more immoral to have the evil that exists in the City of Dublin — thousands of families living in single rooms and thousands of families compelled to live in cellars? There are many hundreds of families compelled to live in insanitary areas that have been condemned by the sanitary authorities. The people have to be allowed to remain in insanitary hovels because there is no alternative accommodation.

People may say there is no connection between housing and hospitals. I say there are no two things more closely allied than housing and hospitals. Where do the bulk of the cases come from that keep our hospitals overcrowded? They come from the slums. Remove the people from the slums, bring them into healthy surroundings and you automatically lighten the burden of the hospitals. Some of the people attached to the hospitals say they require £12,000,000 to stabilise the hospitals or make them solvent. Apparently many of these people believe that their industry — if you can call curing the sick an industry — should be allowed to go on thriving on sweepstakes. By the means that I propose I believe that we can secure prevention, and prevention is better than cure.

This City has a greater sick population than any other City in Europe. The hospitals do not cover the whole position. Many thousands of pounds are spent annually on the treatment of phthisis. This would be comic if there were not so much tragedy behind it. We take these unfortunate people from their insanitary hovels and we put them out into the sunshine and the air and possibly put them in the way of being cured. Immediately that is done they have to go back to live again in their cellars. All the efforts and all the money are wasted. We have no healthy homes in which to put the people.

I do not see that there can be any real objection to this proposal. How is it going to be carried out? We dealt with a Bill this year to provide that one-third of the total money available should be allocated to poor law institutions. Is not that deviating from the original intention of the sweepstakes? By that deviation the poor law hospitals will receive from the sweep which has just terminated, £250,000. It is reasonable to suppose that after the next sweep they will have secured £500,000. That ought to be sufficient for their purposes and I think then the money ought certainly be devoted as a first instalment to the elimination of one of the greatest evils that have ever affected this City.

Those of us who deal with sickness through the National Health Insurance Societies know very well the conditions of huge numbers of sick people who are drawing sickness benefit. We know very well that if their homes were anything like what they ought to be they would be cured, or at least would get rid of their illness in half the time that it takes now. If I desired to do so I could elaborate on the problem of the slums, on their effects on citizenship, on unemployment, on the conduct of people and on the health of the people principally. I do not think it is necessary to do so at this stage. In the motion, mention is made of the Executive bringing in a Bill. I recognise the difficulty of the Executive in this matter, but I do not care who does it so long as it is done and done quickly. I think the Executive ought to provide facilities to crystallise this motion into legislation. Let us get on with the destruction of the slums right away. Bills passed recently in this House will fail because of want of finance. The local authorities will not put up the rates high enough, and they would want to go very high in this city to deal with the matter. The borrowing of money, because of the cost of it, will not relieve the problem. The rents charged would have to be prohibitive. I was going to say the heavenly opportunity of sweepstakes — some people might take exception to that — but at any rate we have here an opportunity which we should embrace to enable us to make an impression on the abolition of the slums in this country.

Dr. Gogarty

I beg to second the motion. Through the enterprise and capacity of a couple of our citizens this country has been endowed with an unexpected and an unprecedented amount of money which has been applied to charity, an amount that exceeds the accumulated charities of a quarter of a century. On account of the conditions under which the money was originally collected the channel of expenditure has been rather a one way channel for one purpose only. Originally it was sought to raise funds to pay off the overdrafts of certain Dublin hospitals. These aggregate to an amount of about £120,000, if so much. Then millions of pounds came into the city. A certain percentage of that money went to endow the hospitals and the care of the sick was taken off the shoulders of the State on which it should properly have rested. The State was relieved of its obligations. But money came in exaggeratione ad absurdum as one might say, so that it looked as if the whole Celtic nation was an accumulation of cripples, hospitals for whom had to be endowed with money from the ends of the earth.

As Senator Foran has so well pointed out, in no country in the world and in no city in Europe are there so many hospitals as there are in this city. Vienna, the capital of the empire of Austria, with a population of over one million in that capital, has only one hospital. The result is that medical enlightenment is found in Vienna and that students from all countries go there on account of centralisation.

The motion seeks to divert under Section 6 of the Charitable Hospitals Act one-third of what is to be under the control of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. I would even go beyond that. I would suggest to the people who were successful in getting the Hospitals Act through that they should apply immediately for a ten years' extension of the Sweep before the cranks get a hold of it and try to turn it into a civil service. Wherever there is a certain amount of money going a certain amount of restrictions are sure to arise. A Government Department might undertake it. Then there would be an end to the sweeps. You cannot deal with sportsmen as if they were — I cannot think of the correct word at the moment — Holy Willies, but at any rate you cannot make a successful sporting venture amenable to the amazing complexities of the laws which we enjoy. I would suggest to the sweepstake authorities that they should apply for a ten years' extension of the right to hold sweepstakes with the definite purpose in view of clearing and sweeping away the Dublin slums for ever.

There is this fact to be borne in mind, that the Dublin hospitals are all built around the slums. The slums are really outpatients departments of the nineteen Dublin hospitals. The slums are that and disease factories. I do not often take credit to myself for saving life, but I do give credit to myself for saving a child's life this year by insisting on the mother leaving the child in hospital, by preventing the child being taken home. I gave an order that the child was not to be taken home. The child is alive to-day, but in my opinion it had not a week to live if it had to get near its home, which was portion of an underground cellar of some ancient Georgian mansion. Everybody knows the horror of the human shelter in Dublin. I need not urge it further. Occasionally we all work ourselves into a condition of indignation in connection with the horrible conditions in which many of our citizens are condemned to live. The figure still is, I believe, 52,000 people in single-room tenements. Unchanged for 30 years! Let our indignation become effective now.

If those people interested themselves in the continuation of the sweeps for the purpose I have mentioned, the money obtained would still be used and diverted for medical purposes — prevention, the better side of medicine. In other words, to getting rid of the causes of disease, the tenements.

There is one feature of this question that may not have been noticed. It shows the futility of giving permission to the Dublin Corporation to raise one million pounds, apart altogether from the advisability of doing so. The very fact of hospitals being situate in certain parts of the city has reduced the rateable value in those areas. The very fact of giving money to maintain hospitals in their present situation tends to keep low the rateable valuations in those areas. That is the sort of interaction between hospital and slum that you get in this connection which is difficult to deal with. The very fact of an hospital being in a part of the city prevents it from becoming a fashionable or a highly rated business area. There are so many hospitals that the general rateable value of the city has been greatly reduced. There is another concomitant in connection with hospitals — the private homes. Naturally nobody wants to live by a place where there are diseases next door. The rateable value of the city is reduced by these indiscriminate medical locations.

That is a point that ought to be borne in mind. It provides a very good argument for diverting some of this money towards slum clearance and so to lessening the strain on the hospitals. If people are obliged to live in underground cellars then naturally one's resistance to disease will be very much reduced. I have suggested that an extension of ten years should be applied for the sweeps.

Mr. Comyn

That is not part of the motion. The Senator should have taken an example from the brilliant politician who preceded him.

Dr. Gogarty

I thoroughly agree with the motion, but I want to go beyond the one-third which is at the disposal of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. Even after that one-third there will still be left two-thirds for the endowment of hospitals which will never cease from want, while the slums keep up an endless supply of invalids. If there are to be a hundred hospitals endowed in the country let us get down to the raison d'être of hospitals, which is in the bad health of our people, due very largely to bad housing. Let us see that we get rid of the cause of the necessity for having so many hospitals.

Mr. Quirke

I would like to say a few words in support of the motion because I believe that prevention is better than cure. I believe that at the present time the hospitals have amassed a sum of money far in excess of their highest expectations. I would warn members of the House against supporting any such legislation as Senator Gogarty proposes. It could only have the effect of keeping the people of this country standing around the corners waiting for the messages delivered on the radios as to how the drum was rolling and for the news of persons winning fortunes that they never expected to win. I would also like to say something in reply to remarks made by members of this House in regard to the housing problem.

Cathaoirleach

That would not be in order on this debate.

Mr. Quirke

It was discussed yesterday. Some remarks were made to the effect that the people in Mayo and Galway who were clamouring for support were living in five-roomed bungalows. If the members who opposed the giving of grants did not know the facts, then they should have known them before they made such statements.

Mr. Comyn

I beg to support my friend, Senator Quirke, in his support of this motion and in his departure from the line taken by Senator Gogarty. This motion has been proposed with great good sense, if I may say so, by Senator Foran. The motion proposes that the proceeds of sweepstakes promoted under the Public Charitable Hospitals Act of 1930 and 1931 be made available for the clearance of insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes. There is nothing said there about an extension of the period of time during which sweepstakes should be run. When the original Bill came before this House authorising and legalising sweepstakes I opposed it strenuously, and incurred the displeasure of some of my most respected medical friends, including Senator Gogarty.

Dr. Gogarty

I protest against that. It was only personal displeasure.

Mr. Comyn

I am unrepentant, but I regard this motion as one that I think ought to be accepted by every member of the Seanad. We have had a number of housing schemes. I have seen the effects of their operation. The main effect of them has been to give the more respectable of the working classes and of the middle-classes new houses, but I have seen the whole tide passing along without affecting in the slightest degree my friends in the slums — the very poor. The people in the slums were passed over. Their condition has not been improved by any housing scheme. I think what Senator Foran has in his mind is this: that out of the vast sums which have come to this country through the gambling spirit of the world and, perhaps, through the enterprise, energy and organising skill of some Dublin citizens some relief should be given to the very poor in this City. The poor are with us. The slum people are with us and the slum areas are with us. That is admitted.

If Senator Foran can clear these slum areas by any means, I certainly am with him. If he can get some of the money which I hope will come into the next hospital sweep I am with him also. Of course, I am in favour of proper equipment for the hospitals. I will say this of the Dublin hospitals from my experience of them: that in their adversity they have ministered to the poor and to the wants of the poor. I am not exclusive enough myself to object to the presence of one hospital, or two hospitals or three hospitals. I know that sometimes they do perhaps depreciate the value of surrounding premises. Still I think that the needs of the poor are a first claim on us and a first claim on society. The Dublin hospitals, numerous as they are, have been efficient. They ministered to the needs of the poor in their poverty. They have known one extreme of fortune and now as a result of these sweepstakes apparently they are experiencing another extreme of fortune. Perhaps some of them are getting a little too much money. At all events, they are getting enough.

I would not like that the Dublin hospitals should get too much money because everyone knows, and I think Senator Gogarty will agree with me in this: if it is known, or believed, that they have too much money the wells of charity will be dried up and they will not get the subscriptions upon which they have subsisted in the past. Therefore, in the interests of the hospitals themselves and in the interests of the very poor I heartily support the motion moved by Senator Foran. While doing that I do not pledge myself in the slightest degree to continue my support of legislation in reference to sweepstakes when, in the ordinary process of time, that legislation comes to an end. I do not think I will be with Senator Gogarty in including that legislation in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill.

Dr. Gogarty

That is what I said — the cranks will get hold of it.

Mr. Farren

I am very glad to see that there has been such support for the motion put down by Senator Foran. I would like Senators to examine the motion as well as what its re-actions are likely to be. Some time ago we had introduced what was known as the Hospitals Sweepstakes Bill. Some members of the House at the time were horrified at the thought that we should establish a sweepstake for the purpose of providing money to maintain the hospitals. Some of us supported that Bill not because we believed that it was the right way to do what was needed, but because we were satisfied that no other alternative presented itself in order to provide the money required to relieve the hospitals of Dublin, and to enable them to carry on the work they were intended to do.

As a result of our labours, the hospitals sweep has been a wonderful success. It has exceeded our wildest anticipations and, arising from that, Senator Foran has had the courage in this House to give expression to an opinion that has been held by all the best thinking people in this City and outside of it, that some of the money that is being procured to enable the hospitals to carry on should be used to prevent the necessity for the enlargement of the hospitals. The Medical Officer of Health for Dublin has said that one of the greatest evils that we have to contend with, from the point of view of public health in the City of Dublin, is the housing of the people in these one-roomed tenements. He said that it is the greatest danger to public health. Therefore, so long as these single-room tenements exist there will be a growing demand for hospitals for the people who inhabit these one-roomed tenements, and it is the opinion of Senator Foran we should seek prevention rather than cure. He suggested that the Executive Council ought to give facilities for the passing into law of an amendment of the present Act so as to enable the Corporation and other local authorities to get money for the purposes of the demolition of these dens of disease and vice and to build proper houses for the people who inhabit these places at present.

An extraordinary amount of money is being wasted in this country every year to combat the diseases that arise from slumdom. One hundred thousand pounds a year of public money is spent on sanitoria and tuberculosis treatment. We go through the folly of taking people from the slums, sending them to sanitoria, keeping them there for three months at the expense of the ratepayers, and sending them back to unhealthy slums where in a short time they become as bad as ever. It is a waste of public money, and to prevent that waste Senator Foran has brought forward this motion to get at the root of the trouble. There is no use in sending people from slums to sanitoria and spending £100,000 of the ratepayers' money in giving them treatment for three months and then sending them back to the microbe dens from which they were brought originally.

It is a sheer waste of money. If we can do anything to prevent that we will be doing some good for the community at large. It is regrettable that such steps as these should have to be taken for the purpose of dealing with this dreadful problem of the slums, but I see no other way of dealing with it. I have taken a good deal of interest in the housing problem in this City. I served on the Housing Committee of the Dublin Corporation for a number of years. At one stage we put 2/6 in the £ on the rates to do something for this problem, but 2/6 in the £ was practically nothing for the problem we had to face. The Government, the first year they were in office after the Treaty, gave £1,000,000 for the purposes of housing in this country, but what did it do? The slums are still there. They are growing. There are as many people living in one-roomed tenements in this City to-day as there were 12 or 14 years ago. We will never deal with the problem properly until we are able to get cheap money to build houses and, as far as I can see, there is no possibility of getting cheap money unless by the means suggested in Senator Foran's motion. The Dublin Corporation have been endeavouring for the past few years to raise cheap money. They were prepared to raise £1,000,000 for the purpose of dealing with this problem, but they would have to pay 6 per cent. When you add the interest that has to be paid on this money, the people who are living in the slums can never afford to live in houses built on borrowed money. It is impossible. Either the ratepayers have to put their hands as far as they can go into their pockets and take out the money to build houses that the people can afford to live in or you raise money by the means suggested in the motion. Otherwise, you will never solve the slum problem in this City. This problem is a cancer that can only be dealt with with the surgeon's knife. By our inaction we are condemning the children of the people who inhabit these slums to death year after year. Read the report of the Medical Officer of Health for the City of Dublin. Read his figures for infantile mortality in the decent houses and in the houses in the slums. You will see that for every child that dies in a proper working-class house, in a healthy area, two die in slum dwellings.

People will say that it is preposterous that we should organise a sweep to deal with this problem. We do not want a sweep to deal with it if we can provide other means. But I can see no other means. Senator Foran has had the courage to come forward with this motion and I sincerely hope that the House will pass it and enable us to do something for the unfortunate people who can do nothing for themselves. Circumstances are against them. Crime and disease are bred in those slums. The people have never got a chance. Take a family that has been removed from the slums and put into a healthy house. In a short time you will see the change that will come over them. These people should be given the chance to live as the Almighty intended they should live, as Christians and human beings.

Mr. D.L. Robinson

Up to now, this motion has been discussed entirely in terms of Harcourt Street, old Georgian houses and the level of the River Liffey, but it is my belief that if there is any money in it—Senator Dowdall, I am sure, will bear me out —it will be only a very short time before it is being discussed in terms of the River Lee and other rivers. I would also like to know what is meant by an insanitary area. It seems to me that an insanitary area covers a larger ground than just the slums. It also refers to the housing of the working classes. Does that include farm labourers or does it only mean industrial workers?

Mr. Fanning

I am going to speak in the light of an experience extending over half a century. The slums were there 50 years ago and it looks as if they will remain for some time to come. Quite recently the Provost of Trinity College and a number of other very exclusive people discovered that there are such things in this capital of the Saorstát as slums. They pretended to be horrified. You would infer from their letters that the development of the slums in the City of Dublin was contemporary with the signing of the Treaty. They were there before in all their ugliness.

I was one of the members of this Assembly who supported the Sweepstakes Bill. I used the phrase that the average Irishman or Irishwoman would purchase a 10/- ticket because they had a sporting chance of winning some money but that they would not put a threepenny bit on a charity plate in the interests of the hospitals. We know that the hospitals were in a practically collapsed condition. Financially they were stranded and structurally most of them were in a bad way. They were simply tumble-down shacks—places like Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital, the Maternity Hospital in Holles Street and other hospitals. This Act was passed specifically to come to the rescue of the hospitals, first and foremost to put up suitable hospitals, to purchase equipment to enable a highly-trained staff to do justice to their abilities and training. They had no money. The sweepstakes were got up to provide them with funds and these sweeps are due to terminate in 1934. The money that has been got by Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital, Holles Street Hospital, the Coombe Hospital and various other hospitals will go to reconstruction and equipment. What is the use of raising these splendid structures if they have to revert to the charity plate? They will find themselves again with bankruptcy staring them in the face. The upkeep of these hospitals will cost more in the future, and where is the money to come from?

I would not utter one word of protest against Senator Foran's idea. I am whole-heartedly with him, but I do maintain that the hospitals fund must be continued. I hope that the moneys that will be secured for the hospitals until the termination of the Act in 1934 will be used for funding purposes so that these hospitals can do justice to themselves. What is the use of raising magnificent hospitals if we have not the funds to carry them on? We have got practically enough money now to do the reconstruction work and to provide equipment. We have got to provide a fund that will keep up these places for all time. Senator Foran and Senator Farren have painted a tragic picture of the conditions under which 60,000 or 70,000 of the citizens of this city live. I know it, but I say it is not the responsibility of the Hospitals Trust Fund. It is the responsibility of the executive authority in this country. They should bear the cost of having the people of this country housed in a manner worthy of our people.

Mr. MacEllin

Senator Fanning has stated that the main argument used in connection with the slums by people who advocated the removal of the slums was that the problem had been caused by the Treaty. I would like to point out to Senator Fanning——

Mr. Fanning

That is not so. I said that they would have you imagine that the slums only originated with the signing of the Treaty. The Provost of Trinity College discovered quite recently that there were such things as slums.

Mr. MacEllin

I would like to point out that no effort has been made to remove the slum areas since the signing of the Treaty.

Mr. O'Hanlon

Ridiculous.

Mr. MacEllin

The slum problem is greater to-day than when the Treaty was signed in 1921. Housing statistics show that. I must say I would be an enthusiastic supporter of Senator Foran's motion except that there is a snag in it from my point of view. It only provides for the clearance of insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes in this city. Whether intentionally or otherwise, he has left out the rural areas.

Mr. Duffy

They are included.

Mr. MacEllin

I do not know whether the working classes include small farmers who are living in insanitary houses. If the Senator would accept an amendment so as to make the motion read "available for rural districts and for the clearance of insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes" I would support his motion.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

I am entirely in agreement with the principle which underlies Senator Foran's motion, but I think the House ought to examine the motion a little bit more carefully. He only asks to make available "part of the surplus from sweepstakes promoted...." I think the first thing we ought to do is to try to arrive at what is the surplus. As Senator Fanning has said, first of all, you want to get your buildings and when you have paid for your buildings you want to ensure that you have got a fund to make up for these wells of public charity which have been mentioned in this House. I myself think that when the sweepstakes are over the wells will only trickle instead of flowing the way they did before. The people will have lost the habit of giving which they had before.

There is another point which arises on the motion. I suggest to Senator Foran that instead of asking the Executive Council to bring in a proposal for legislation on this question he should suggest that a Committee of both Houses should examine what could be done towards housing with the surplus, when the surplus for all hospitals and all nursing associations has been arrived at. I think you would be arriving at a situation then where you would be talking in actual figures and where you knew where you stood. Several speakers have described the affluent state of the hospitals now. We have no figures to show that every hospital and every nursing association coming under the Act has been provided for or that they will be provided for at the end of the year 1934.

I am not in any way attempting to attack Senator Foran's motion. I would like to see what can be done to further the thing. There is no doubt that there is no good in having hospitals when you have these places that the people come back to when they are discharged from the hospitals and where they get into exactly the same state they were in before. That question arises in my own particular county in a very flagrant form. When tubercular patients are cured at Peamount they come back again to their homes. I suggest that Senator Foran should revise his amendment so that it would be possible for us to arrive at the sum that will be available for the further projects that have been suggested.

Cathaoirleach

There is a specific motion. No amendment has been set down on the Order Paper. Consequently, I think the motion will remain in its entirety before it.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

The hospital question is a very important one which brought to us the sympathy of the world and is continuing to bring us the sympathy of the world, apart from considerations of chance or, shall I call it, sportsmanship. When you speak of applying portion of this money to the housing problem, you have to remember that in some of the big industrial areas in other countries the housing problem is acute—probably more acute than it is here. It is questionable whether the policy of introducing a third factor would be expedient. The sweepstakes were originally undertaken with a view to benefiting the voluntary hospitals. Then, the county hospitals were introduced and now a third factor is being suggested.

Mr. O'Doherty

Without any equivocation, I rise to support the motion in the name of Senator Foran. For the last few days, we have had very definite references to the housing problem. Very definite views were ventilated as to the conditions both in the rural and urban areas. I think we are all agreed that those conditions are a disgrace to any country calling itself Christian. Personally, I have no misgivings as to the morality, or otherwise, of sweepstakes. It is immaterial to me how houses are provided for the very poor so long as they are provided. If by means of this "free money," as a Senator has called it, more houses can be provided for the poor, I do not know why any Irishman should stand in the way of its being done. The only objection to the motion, in my view, is that it seems to be aimed at getting only an expression of opinion from the Seanad. I should like to have seen definite proposals, embodying the principles of the motion, placed before this House in the form of a Bill introduced by Senator Foran. We could then discuss the matter and raise questions which will be raised on this motion without avail. I feel that, in recording our views on this motion, we will be merely giving a pious expression of opinion. Whether we pass the motion or not, legislation will not, in my opinion, be brought forward by the Executive Council. After hearing Senator MacEllin speak yesterday, I cannot understand why he does not see that Mayo is an insanitary area. I think it is one of the most insanitary areas in Ireland and that the Senator should be one of the first to stand for the motion. I think we should give whole-hearted support to the motion, even though it means only an expression of opinion, in the hope that the Executive Council will take heart and bring forward proposals as soon as possible to give the motion effect.

Sir E. Coey Bigger

I rise to support the motion. There is no more pressing problem in Dublin than the problem of the slums. That might be said of the large towns of the Free State as well. In Cork, Limerick and Waterford, the housing conditions of the very poor are appalling. A great deal has been done by the Dublin Corporation to improve the housing conditions in the City. Taking into account the schemes completed and the schemes at present in hand, the Corporation will have spent something like four and a half million pounds on this problem. Nevertheless, the problem has hardly been touched. I feel that it is a problem that can never be solved by public money. Some other means must be found to provide houses for the very poor. I know of no better means than using a certain portion of the proceeds of the hospitals sweepstakes for improving the housing conditions of those who can only pay a very small amount by way of rent.

A very able article has recently been published in a quarterly review by Fr. McGrath on this matter. Some members of the Seanad have probably read that article. If they have not, I recommend them to read it. It is well and ably written and it puts the whole case very fairly. He suggests— there is no hesitation about his statement—that the utilisation of portion of the proceeds of the sweepstakes would be a very convenient method and a very proper method of making provision for this problem. In 1898, a Public Health Conference was held in Dublin. At that time a number of delegates, of whom I was one, visited some of the slums of Dublin. Recently, I had an opportunity of visiting some of the slums again and I found the conditions exactly the same as, if not worse than, they were thirty-three years ago. I hope that an expression of opinion will go from this House which will induce the Executive Council to bring in a Bill to deal with this matter.

Mr. Johnson

I speak as one who was opposed from the beginning to this whole scheme of sweepstakes for the purpose of raising money to do work which the community within the country should do. I have held that the problem of tending the sick and housing the people ought not to be dependent upon either the charity or the cupidity of people of other countries. I take the view that there is no necessity to argue that question on this motion. I think that the motion is very well drawn and devised, because it presupposes the existence of an Act which the Oireachtas and the community as a whole have adopted with enthusiasm. The motion seeks to have the available surplus, after payment of the expenses and prize money in connection with the sweepstakes, diverted, in part, to the purpose of housing. I am going to support the motion. I think it can be no answer to it to urge, as Ministers in the past have urged, the undesirability of associating the Executive Council with these matters. There can be no answer to it either from the point of view of those who have opposed sweepstakes as a means of raising funds to do work that the community itself ought to do. As is very well known, the anticipations as to the assistance likely to be rendered to the hospitals by this method have been very greatly exceeded. In the 1930-31 Public Charitable Hospitals (Amendment) Act, it was decided, probably at the instigation of the Executive Council, that one-third of the available surplus should be devoted to purposes which were within the jurisdiction of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health—the equipment of hospitals publicy owned. Once the Executive Council is brought into the position of agreeing to the use of surplus sweepstake moneys for the purpose of doing such work, I can see no possible objection to a portion of this money being devoted to the purpose of housing.

When dealing with the question of the surplus, Senator The McGillycuddy seemed to assume that what the motion intended was that after all the hospitals have been supplied with all the money they sought, some money should be devoted to housing. The available surplus is clearly defined in the Act. It means "the balance of moneys received from the sale of tickets in a sweepstake ... after paying or providing for the prizes distributed in such sweepstake and the expenses incurred in the holding of such sweepstake." The next sub-section provides that that surplus shall not be less than twenty per cent. of the moneys received from the sale of tickets. It is clear that the motion intends that part of the surplus which is available at present for the hospitals should be diverted to the purpose of housing.

I do not think there is any necessity to urge the importance of the housing problem. This matter was discussed in various ways. The only question is whether the means adopted for financing hospital work should be used for financing housing work. The Act which authorises the raising of money by sweepstakes, as Senator Fanning has pointed out, continues until 1934. The only amendment required is an alteration in the purposes set out in the Principal Act. I agree entirely with the view that once we have departed from what I may describe as "the straight path" we had better use the money derived by this means for the purpose of housing, thus preventing disease, than for the purpose of curing disease. I think it is well, if this money is to be raised for housing purposes, that it should be raised before 1934. There will almost certainly be a great demand for extension of the period during which the Act shall operate, but it is not quite so certain that the flow of money will be as great or as constant as it is at present. If we intend that money derived by this means should be used for housing purposes, we should act while the flood tide is on and not wait until it has been diverted in other directions.

Mr. O'Connor

I desire to associate myself with this motion. Great credit is due to Senator Foran for his thoughtfulness in bringing it forward and for his endeavour to ease the conditions of the people who live in the slums. It is quite possible, if the scheme were a great success, which I am sure it would be, that the rural areas would get jealous. They should be remembered, too. There is real necessity for assistance to be extended in this connection, but the important thing to do is to make the first portion of this scheme a success.

I am sure the people in these slum areas will be very grateful for any effort that is made to remove them from the dreadful conditions under which they live. The poor people who live there now will be certain to say a prayer for the man who initiated the effort to enable them to live under improved conditions. Anything that will tend to alleviate the lot of the slum dweller will certainly be an advantage to the community as a whole. If I had a fairy godmother who would help me financially I would be the first to endorse a very large cheque to assist in this very laudable project.

I think the people generally will whole-heartedly support this proposal. I am certain it will meet with the approval of charitably-disposed people. The position of the poorer classes in the City has been graphically described here to-day. We all recognise the great poverty that exists and how necessary it is to assist the people to live under better conditions. Of course it is a proposal that will require a considerable amount of money in order to carry it out successfully. The suggestion that has been made will certainly appeal to the charitable instincts of the people.

Already the sweepstakes have achieved a success that was never dreamed of originally. I would imagine that because of the large number of prizes that went to Great Britain in the case of the last sweep the authorities there will not be likely to raise any serious objection to future similar undertakings, particularly when they are promoted for such a worthy object as we have heard discussed here to-day. I sincerely hope that this scheme will be carried to a successful conclusion.

Colonel Moore

I do not suppose that anybody could object to the issuing of money from almost any fund for the purpose of remedying the slum evil, improving the conditions in hospitals and making easier the lot of the nurses. I believe the State is responsible for the existence of the slums. They ought to remedy that evil. I think when we give up sending our money away to other countries there will be sufficient left for that purpose. I think something should be done to assist the nurses. Anybody who knows the West and South of Ireland will realise——

Cathaoirleach

The Senator must understand that this matter is entirely outside the terms of the motion, which deals specifically with insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes.

Colonel Moore

Surely the question of the nurses is included?

Mr. Johnson

They are provided for in a Bill which has already passed through the Seanad.

Cathaoirleach

Certain provisions in regard to nurses were made in a Bill recently passed in the Seanad.

Colonel Moore

Then that saves me the trouble of saying the few words I intended to say.

Mr. Duffy

This motion deals with the clearance of insanitary areas and the housing of the working classes. It does not mention the City of Dublin or any other city in the State. I take it the motion is meant to apply to the provision of houses for the working classes all over the Free State. I believe it is absolutely necessary that it should so apply. The original intention of the sweepstakes was to wipe out the big overdrafts incurred by the hospitals. Senator Foran has very successfully argued that we need to go a step further. He mentioned that prevention is better than cure and that the slums are the sources of supply to the hospitals.

Just as the slums supply the hospitals with patients, so do the rural areas, because of the absence of proper housing, supply residents for the slums. You will go on having a fresh slum problem in every generation if you do not make some little effort also to remedy the conditions in the rural areas. This is for the most part an agricultural country and in the rural areas a great bulk of the money upon which the State exists is created. I contend that it is a better proposition to provide houses for the working classes in rural areas than it is to supply an extraordinary amount of houses in the city areas. The city offers sufficient attractions to bring in workers from the outlying rural areas. These rural workers while they have youth, health and strength will get employment from builders, shopkeepers and others. As soon as the environment of the city, the conditions of want arising out of bad wages and other things undermine his constitution, the rural worker will drift automatically into the basements, the badly ventilated and ill-situated rooms which constitute the slums.

A great many public authorities would build labourers' cottages if they could get money on the terms at which it was available fifteen, twenty or thirty years ago. I am a member of a public body that asked leave of the county council recently to borrow £25,000 with which to build labourers' cottages. When we went into the question of the terms upon which we could get the money we found that we would not be able to let a cottage costing £250 or £280 at less than 11/- per week. To endeavour to let cottages in a rural area at 11/- a week when the full rate of wages is only 18/- to 21/- a week would be simply preposterous.

If the housing of the working classes is to be properly tackled I hold that the rural areas should be provided for as well as the cities and towns. I know of one case where a widow with nine children had to live for three years in an old hen house at the back of a public house. The accommodation was given to her out of charity. At present that woman is living in the basement of a disused mill. The local authorities there would be quite prepared to build a house for that woman if they could get money on reasonable terms. Unfortunately the present conditions of the money market prohibit the carrying out of that work.

If there were a sum of money available such as Senator Foran has visualised and if it were applied wholly or partly to the relief of such people, and I believe there are many of them, it would do an immense amount of good. With such financial assistance I believe public authorities would interest themselves in large housing schemes and one of the results ultimately would be that the rent a labourer would have to pay for his house would be brought within very reasonable limits.

Mr. Kennedy

I thoroughly agree with Senator Foran's proposal that the surplus money accruing from sweep stakes should go towards remedying the slum evil. I suppose Senators are well aware that the money the Corporation is borrowing involves a rather high charge upon the tenants of houses. I understand the houses that have been erected by the Corporation are costing from 14/- to 17/- a week and that is much more than the majority of the people can afford to pay. The sweepstakes were certainly wonderful because of the big amount of money they brought to the country. The hospitals were in a very bad way. Unfortunately we could see no other way in which to assist them. The sweepstakes have certainly been a great success.

I am sure most Senators know Holles Street Hospital. You have there surrounding the hospital a lot of tenement houses. I understand that they are going to knock down most of them and the rebuilding will give a lot of necessary employment. You have also Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital and other hospitals. Of course it will take a lot of money to equip them. Senator Foran's motion is not unfair to the hospitals. He merely asks that the surplus over and above what is required in other directions should be devoted to this very necessary work of improving the conditions of the slum dwellers. I have been through the slums time and again and I know a lot of the people living in them. I know they have to pay 3/-, 4/- and 5/- a week for what are no better than little hovels.

The Commissioners and the Corporation have built a good many houses, but the rents of these houses are much too high for the people living in the slums. The men are not getting the wages to enable them to pay such rents. There is not the same employment there used to be in days gone by. There could be no more deserving object than the building of houses for the working classes. When the period over which the sweepstakes will operate expires I hope that they will be continued for the purpose of devoting the proceeds to erecting houses for the working people.

Mr. Staines

I am strongly in favour of the object that Senator Foran has in view, but I think it would be a much better course if we asked the Dáil to agree to the appointment of a Joint Committee to discuss the question in all its bearings and make a report to both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Douglas

I am one of, I think, two or three members who do not believe that you can bring about a millennium by means of sweepstakes. I thought Senator Johnson was one, but apparently he has now been converted. At the end of his speech he hinted that he recognised that this was not a motion to solve the housing problem by means of what Senator Kennedy called the surplus after the needs of the hospitals had been catered for. The Senator knows quite well that this is a motion to go on continuing sweepstakes as long as it is possible to obtain money from them. There are some of us who think that the effect of the sweepstakes has been to spread—and it will more so even than at present— the gambling spirit. If you do get a certain amount of money you will have spread the gambling spirit and you will probably create another evil out of the amount of good you will have done. Those of us who are in a hopeless minority in this country recognise that we will have a continuance of sweepstakes for some time.

I do not think this House ought to support the motion on the pretence which has been used by quite a number of speakers, that you are asking for only a small sum until 1934. That amount would solve no housing problem in any area of any size worth talking about. I am also old-fashioned enough to believe that though you may get a certain amount of money from the sweepstakes as long as other countries decide not to take too strong or too drastic action, I also believe that you are not going to solve the problem of housing except by a certain amount of sacrifice on the part of the people here themselves. It would be a great mistake to believe otherwise. I would not like it to go out from this House that this motion meant anything more than the building of houses on a few areas out of the one-third, or whatever the proportion may be, that you may take from the existing sweepstake. There is a wonderful enthusiasm for spending money for housing when you think that you are going to get it out of the foreigner, or a large portion of it. I am personally convinced that you are not going to go on indefinitely getting money for any real large social reform in this country from the foreigner. I think the people of this country will ultimately have to make up their minds that they will have to pay for that themselves out of their own pockets. I am not going to vote for the motion. I do not object to it while the sweepstakes are there, or that a certain portion of the money should be spent on clearing sites or on the building of new wings to hospitals. But I take it that what the motion means is that if it is successful in its object you are going to go on continually with sweepstakes as long as it is possible to make them a success.

Mr. Foran

I was very interested listening to the debate on this motion. It has been very satisfactory to me that people like Senator Douglas have agreed with me in regard to sweepstakes. I am sure the Senator is very jealous now at the fact that at last Senator Johnson has seen the light and has had the wisdom to come over to the right place. His puritanical reputation is gone because I know a man who had a bet with him recently. Senator Douglas lost. The point was made about the wells of charity. Everyone knows that the war killed all the charitable people and that none of them is left. We know that some people will try to bring Party politics into this. This is not a matter of Party politics. The slums did not begin with the Treaty. The slums began a long way back. When I was a child I was reared in one of them. That was long before the Treaty, as Senators can realise. All that I ask is that the Executive Council should give facilities for the early passage of a Bill to deal with this matter. I have not camouflaged my ideas on the matter. We are dealing here with a huge problem and we want plenty of money to deal with it.

As to sweepstakes, unfortunately for myself I am acquainted with most forms of gambling, except gambling on the Stock Exchange. I have not yet got that far. I will say this: that of all forms of gambling I know of an investment in a sweepstake is less harmful to people who can afford to gamble than any other. I know other forms of gambling that are far more injurious and harmful to family life and individuals. I have not yet heard of anyone going to pledge the clock or a blanket to buy a sweep ticket. Therefore, this talk about the gambling spirit is not very real. There is no foundation for it. Seeing that we have the unanimous opinion of this House in favour of this motion, I sincerely hope facilities will be provided to enable the motion to crystallise early in the form of a Bill. The motion was brought forward to get the feeling of the House on the matter. That was a very proper procedure, in my opinion. Having done that, I hope we will have an unanimous decision on the motion, and that even Senator Douglas will vote for it. I hope too that when the Bill comes before us it will get unanimous support.

Question put, and declared carried.

Senators Fanning and Garahan recorded as dissenting.