I do not want to take advantage of the Fifth Stage of the Bill to deal with the many questions referred to in the Minister's speech with which I agree or disagree. I want, however, to raise a matter which I would have raised on the Second Stage had I been aware of the circumstances. I want to raise it now in the hope that any comments I may make may be passed on and considered in the proper quarter, because I honestly believe that the particular Order to which I desire to refer may have disastrous results in a matter in which we are all deeply interested, namely, the obtaining of supplies. An Order was made on the 13th March entitled the Emergency Powers (Importation of Fabrics) Order, 1942. I was unable to get a copy of the Order, though I wrote to the Ministry of Supplies, but I have succeeded in getting a copy here to-day. The substance of the Order was published in the newspapers, and the actual Order, as I discovered when I read it to-day, does not contain anything of very much importance that did not appear in the newspaper announcement, so that I am not in this case complaining that I could not get the Order when I applied for it, though I think it is rather unfortunate, in regard to a number of Orders, that it is almost impossible for people vitally affected by them to get copies other than an abbreviated statement in the newspapers, for a very considerable time.
This Order, according to its preamble, is necessary for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community, and the effect of the Order is to prohibit the importation, except by special licence, of almost all kinds of fabric. The word "fabric", for the purposes of the Order, means "woven or knitted goods of every description in the piece other than floor coverings made wholly or partly of cotton, linen, wool silk or artificial silk". The word, therefore, covers practically all fabrics.
It is not, of course, very clear from the Order what exactly the Minister had in mind but I shall assume that he had no intention of trying to prevent supplies from coming into this country even though he proposes to prohibit the importation of these fabrics except under licence and that therefore his object must have been to control importation for the purpose of getting more control over the stuff available so that it might go to the right quarters. It is quite probable that he had also in mind, though I do not think he will achieve his purpose by the methods he is adopting, the desirability of keeping the limited supplies available for import in a form most useful to the country having regard to the present emergency. If these were his objects — and I have reason to think they were — I would suggest that every manufacturer and trader who is at all reasonable, and I think that would apply to the overwhelming majority, would have been perfectly willing to have met him, to have consulted with him and to have endeavoured to achieve the objects which he had in mind. Actually, as far as I can ascertain, and I have been able to consult the majority of both manufacturers and distributing agencies immediately concerned, the Minister for Supplies did not consult with any of these persons as to the best way in which his object might be achieved.
On Saturday last a document was issued from the Department of Supplies in the following terms:—
"In order to facilitate the negotiation of transactions by importers, the Minister for Supplies hereby gives notice that the grant of licences for the import of fabrics under the above Order will be conditioned by considerations of type and price. For the present, licences will be issued on application for the classes of goods set out hereunder, provided the prices are within the limits shown. Applications for licences for fabrics other than those set out below, or for fabrics of the types set out below at prices higher than the maximum prices set out below, will also be considered and licences may or may not be granted."
The effect of that is that anyone trying to negotiate supplies from the other side, if the supplies come within this rather extraordinary list, will know that he will get a licence to import and that if they do not come within that list, he may or may not get such a licence. I should like to draw the attention of the Government to the fact that supplies of this particular type on offer in England — and it is the only place outside this country that they can be obtained at present — are extremely small and that when the goods are on offer, you have to take them at once or you do not get them at all. Any doubt as to the possibility of your being allowed to import them means in 99 cases out of 100 that you do not get them. I speak not only of my own experience but as a result of consultation with responsible members of the trade who are very much perturbed about the Order and who have consulted me.
If a fabric comes within the very narrow range specified in this circular, you know that you can buy because you are promised a licence in anticipation, but if it does not come within this list, you will have to apply first for the licence and, if you succeed in getting it afterwards, probably in 99 cases out of 100 the fabric is not available by the time you have succeeded in obtaining the licence. If Senators realised the extraordinarily small quantity of goods that comes within these categories, they would know how grave the effect of the Order may be. As a result of consultation with Irish manufacturers of cotton fabric, I can state that they could not supply these materials in anything like a sufficient quantity to meet the demands of the country at the present time. They are doing their best at the moment, and the position may not be as bad as it was represented in the newspapers a short time ago, but the fact is that they could not possibly supply all the demands for these materials in the country and they have no wish that any effort should be made in their interest to prevent the importation of any supplies that can be obtained from outside the country.
I should like Senators to consider the items covered by this particular Order. It covers all cotton piece goods, woollen and worsted piece goods, artificial silk or rayon piece goods and all knitted fabrics. I want to deal with the question of cotton piece goods first. It deals with only eight varieties, the first being flannelette or winceyette and the maximum landed price of materials of this description, for the importation of which a licence will be issued on application, is set out at 1/4 per square yard. On behalf of the distributing drapery trade, I am prepared to offer a full Ministerial salary to the gentleman or official in the Government who is prepared to get us supplies at the price mentioned in this list from England and it would pay us to do so.
I cannot find anyone who could import flannelette at 1/4 per square yard. I have made inquiries from the Irish manufacturers and I have been told that the lowest price at which they can offer flannelette is 1/8 per square yard. Flannelette is a material that it is very hard to get at the moment. It is used very largely for children's underwear. The Red Cross and St. John Ambulance Brigade also find it very necessary for their work. Why the Minister at this stage should place difficulties in the way of its importation by putting a price limit of 1/4 per yard on the quantity for which an importation licence is promised, I simply do not know. Before the war, it was possible to get a very cheap type of flannelette but that very cheap flannelette is not now available. I cannot find anybody who has been able to obtain it recently and if they could, it would not be as good in quality as is required for the urgent needs at the moment.
We come next to shirtings. I do not know the exact position with regard to what may be obtained, but you still have the 1/4, though the cheapest Irish shirting is 1/10½ a square yard. If anyone is able to get some in, why place a difficulty in the way? Then we have overalls and dress cloths, which covers a lot of things. I do not know exactly what it means. It could be interpreted strictly or widely and there is hardly anything which could not be used for a dress in an emergency but if it is used in the trade sense it is not a wide term. The price there is 1/7 and the cheapest Irish cloth is 1/9½. There again I do not see any reason for a limit to the imports.
The next item is No. 4. It says: "Sateens for Women's Underclothing." Since Saturday I have not been able to find anyone who understands or has heard of an undergarment made from sateen. I am told that about 30 years ago it was so used. Maybe they were too shy in the Department to ask about it, or it may be that someone has knowledge not generally known in the trade. At any rate, I cannot explain No. 4. No. 5 is: "Linings for Garments, 1/8." Sateens are used as linings for garments. Sateen is a mercerised cotton. It is now almost unobtainable from England. If it is a lining it will be allowed in up to 1/8, but if anyone suggests to use it for underwear — which I do not suppose they will — they would not be allowed to pay more than 1/3. Then there is No. 6: "Gabardines for Raincoats, up to 3/6, and Rubberised Waterproof Cloth, 2/4, or Double Texture, 4/4."
What about fabric for towelling, which, in its white form, is extremely important for children's clothing? There is not enough produced here, and the little that may be obtainable can only come in after a special application, for which one has to wait, and waiting is fatal. I speak with personal knowledge and after consultation with others. What about white drills, also important for clothing? Calico is not mentioned here, and it might be squeezed in under other headings if not too strictly interpreted. Calico is required for a great many purposes for clothing, and is very hard to get. I could mention a lot of others. There is cotton blanketing, of which there is only a little available, and Irish manufacturers cannot manufacture the total required. Yet, you could not say you could buy it definitely until you had been to the Department, and I think that is a mistake.
When you come to woollen and worsted piece goods, I am told by a gentleman in touch with the group that the prices are all wrong and will not work. I am not going into that, because I have not first-hand knowledge. When you come to artificial silk it beats me altogether. In the first place, there is no restriction on the export of artificial silk fabric from Great Britain. It has been getting less, however. In cotton there has been a restriction and I am sure it will not be long until the artificial silk is restricted, too. Twenty per cent. of cotton fabrics used to be allowed, but it is down to 10 per cent. now. If the Government want to get in the cheapest article and not the better class I would have sympathy with that point of view, if I were sure it would be possible. The manufacturer who offers you the 10 per cent. or the 20 per cent. insists on your taking it over the range and if you do not take the higher class as well as the lower it just means that you will get so much less. In view of the fact that it is allowed out of Great Britain, I think we should get all we can of the lower classes and that it is a mistake to refuse to take anything. In artificial silk there is not the same restriction but, according to this Order, you must not import artificial silk over 3/6 if it is for dress or lingerie cloth, or if it is for linings it must not be over 2/11. There is not an artificial silk which could not be used as a lining and there are no linings that could not be used for a dress, or, if there are, they are few and far between. Let us assume it is 3/6. I made inquiries from a manufacturer to see what a cloth costing 4/3 would mean in the price of the dress made up. A reasonably good type would sell at, after allowing retail profit, about 30/-. If you cannot get in more of the cheaper cloths by getting dresses that would cost over 30/-, why on earth not take that? If it were a question that they were over 3/6 and they would not be suitable for dresses unless they were £10 or £12, I might have sympathy with it. Why there should be any limit at all I do not know, as there is no restriction. It is merely a question of whatever manufacturers have to sell. I think there will be restriction very soon.
The same applies to knitted fabrics, but this is not in my direct trade and I did not have time to study it. I only got this on Saturday and I was out of town on business and so could not look into it. I am convinced that, as it stands, the Order will not work and needs immediate revision. Between this and April 20th, during which time things may come in, if any retailer or manufacturer here is able to get some cloths from England or has the chance of ordering goods, nothing whatever should be done by the Government to prevent them from coming in. It is also probable that the Government have in mind the possibility that luxury materials or expensive curtains or clothes of that kind may come in as cotton goods and thereby prevent a certain amount of cloth coming in which could be used for clothing. If that be so, I am entirely with them and would say that the trade is willing and anxious to help them.
What is wrong with this whole thing is this, to my mind. The Minister for Finance described the present Minister for Supplies in very glowing terms. He did not say anything about the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who happens to be quite a different person though bearing the same name. I am prepared to be quite complimentary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, but cannot be complimentary to the Minister for Supplies in the same way at all. Deputy Lemass, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, has a habit of getting leading officials of his Department, when there is a problem relating to trade, to call together responsible people in confidence and put the problem to them and ask their views. They are not told what the Government is going to decide and do not know until afterwards. I have been at a number of these conferences and at those, in every single case, the people concerned were friendly and tried to be helpful. I know of a great many other conferences at which I was not present and have no reason to think any different about them. The result was that, in the last two or three years, in relation to quotas or changes in tariffs, while decisions were not by any means what the trade had in mind, they did not show any technical blunders.
Deputy Lemass, as Minister for Supplies, does not adopt that practice, and here is a case in point. This Order comes into force on April 20th. Therefore, there was no reason why the trade should not have been consulted. There could have been no forestalling, as you cannot get more in anyway, but if you have until April 20th this was a clear case where there could be no reason why responsible traders could not have been consulted. I would urge the Minister to get into touch with representatives of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade and of the manufacturers who make up garments. I am not one of them. I am a manufacturer of fabric who ought to be delighted if supplies do not come in but I know we cannot supply the needs of the country and we would not want anybody to be prevented from bringing them in.
There is one other matter which more directly concerns the Minister for Finance. Applications were made by various importers here for importation free of duty of various articles of wearing apparel. Letters were sent out in stereotyped type form saying that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had requested that the Revenue Commissioners should license the free importation of these articles. Up to a week ago, that has always meant that the Revenue Commissioners would issue the licence and you might buy your goods on that belief. I am not concerned in this myself but responsible firms have informed me that they bought the goods and they showed me the actual letter stating that the Revenue Commissioners had been asked by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to grant the licence but the Revenue Commissioners refused to grant the licence because of a new order which had changed the position. I think it is now at 25 per cent. I am not voicing a personal grievance but it is not only the Government that is working under difficulties and tension. Every honest person engaged in trade is doing his best to deal with an awkward situation. How are we going to organise trade if you get a form stating that the licence is to be granted and it is later withdrawn?
I am not suggesting that the Minister should know about this. All I ask is that the Minister should make inquiries. If there is a change, before the letter is issued, I know we should not have bought the goods, but if you buy the goods, having got the promise that the licence will be granted, I think it is unfair that it should be withdrawn, and I think it has had a bad effect on trade. I did not mean to speak at such length, but I feel rather strongly on this matter. That is probably the reason why I kept the House so long.
Before I sit down, may I make one other remark? I don't think the Minister was fair in his criticism of persons who are advocating the use of the community kitchen. I have not taken any part in that. I am not clear about it, and I do not want to be taken as discussing the attitude of the Government; but there are some very sincere social workers of an excellent type who have advocated it openly, and they think they are doing right. They are not acting as a left wing of the Labour Party, or of any particular party. I felt it my duty to say this, because some of those people who are not interested in any particular Party might feel hurt at the Minister's criticism. I know the Irish Times has been advocating the use of the kitchens, but I am not an advocate for the Irish Times, and I do not mind anyone accusing the Irish Times of being the left wing of the Labour Party.
