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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Jan 1947

Vol. 33 No. 7

Control of Prices—Motion.

I move:—

Being of opinion that the existing machinery for controlling prices is inadequate and unsatisfactory and unable to prevent further increases in the cost of living which will render valueless the recent advances in wages and salaries secured by sections of the community, this House resolves that in order to assist the country progressively to reach a state of economic stability national policy should now be directed towards securing by proper economic measures a substantial reduction in prices, such measures to include, if necessary, subsidising the price of foodstuffs but should particularly provide for a drastic reduction in the profit margins permitted under the existing policy of the Government.

This motion follows on a question which was raised here a very considerable time ago. It will be familiar to members of the House that, when we were speaking on the Finance Bill in June last, I drew attention to certain matters relating to price fixing and the margin of profit which was being sought then by various kinds of traders. I do not desire to cover that ground again. The statement I made then and the facts I submitted will be found in the Official Report, Volume 31, column 2251.

Since that time, there has been a general tendency for prices to rise, particularly the prices of foodstuffs and mainly fruit and vegetables. The high-water mark appears to have been reached around the Christmas period, when the ordinary small head of cabbage, which was normally obtainable at 3d. or 4d., became 8d., 9d. or 1/-. As a matter of fact, I personally examined the prices of vegetables in a Dublin township a few days before Christmas and I was amazed to see that very small cabbages were costing 8d. and 9d. per head. Cauliflower was costing 1/6 to 2/-; and Brussels sprouts 2/- a lb. I was wondering whether there was any justification for this extraordinary rise in prices and I made some inquiries to find out whether the producer was getting considerably more for his products than he obtained a year ago. I learned that, in the main, he was not—that, in fact, the head of cabbage which was selling in a Dublin township at 8d. at the end of December was fetching about 1½d. or 2d. in the Dublin market.

One grower in County Dublin told me that he sold cauliflowers in the Dublin market at an average of 2/- a dozen. For some of it he received 1/6, and for some something over 2/-, but the average price realised for the whole lot was 1/6. The price in the retail shops in Dublin on the same evening was 9d. a head, an average price of 9/- a dozen retail, for a commodity which was bought in the market at an average price of 1/6 a dozen.

That has given rise to a clamour. Protests are being made by all sorts of organisations—political organisations and economic organisations—because of this rise in prices. It is understandable that that should be so. It is understandable that people should protest when the cost of essential commodities is rising so rapidly that they are becoming unprocurable. A lady told me out in Dún Laoghaire around Christmas time that to buy sufficient cabbage to supply one meal for a family of five persons would have meant eight heads at 8d. each, having regard to the size of the head, costing her 5/4 for that one meal. When I heard that story I reflected that it is rather a good thing that George Bernard Shaw, who is a vegetarian, does not live in the vicinity of Dublin on a busman's wage. He would find that the whole of his wages would be consumed in providing himself with vegetables. In fact, he might become a meat-eater if it was the only alternative to buying vegetables in Dublin at their present prices.

I do not know whether it is possible for the Government, by legislative or administrative action, to prevent these stupendous increases in the price of foodstuffs, particularly vegetables. I admit that there is a difficulty in regulating and controlling prices so as to include the commodities I have mentioned. Above all, there is going to be stupendous difficulties if the Minister for Industry and Commerce is wedded to the glories of private enterprise. The Minister, I admit, cannot be expected to control and regulate the prices of all commodities which enter into the ordinary household, if, at the same time, he is expected to encourage and promote private enterprise. If the shopkeeper or vendor of those commodities ignores the Ten Commandments he is not going to be influenced very much by speeches or by the emergency Orders which emanate from the Department of Industry and Commerce.

There is no use in talking about a just price in relation to these commodities. So far as the general mass of traders are concerned there is no just price. The price being charged to-day entirely depends on the volume of commodities on the market. If a trader finds that fruit is scarce, or vegetables are scarce, he charges a price which only the wealthy can pay. If the commodities become plentiful, the price comes down. We have seen examples of that recently in the case of certain commodities. My attention was drawn to one case in a provincial town in which certain articles of wearing apparel, priced in December, 45/-, were reduced to 21/6 in the month of January. In other words, when the peak of demand had passed prices fell automatically. The danger of having to carry over surplus stock induced the trader to reduce his prices considerably and I have no doubt that, on the reduced price, he was not sustaining any particular loss.

Two or three persons were recently discussing the price of turf. One of them said that he was getting 2/- a bag for turf. The other said that his friend was a fool, that he should get 3/-. Of course, controlled prices and fair prices do not seem to affect the mentality of the person selling the commodity. It is a question of what you can get.

Would Senator Duffy be a little more precise? Talking about a bag of turf or a head of cabbage conveys nothing. Would he give us the weight of either the head of cabbage or the bag of turf?

I have not been carrying weighbridges around with me and, therefore, cannot give the information the Senator requires.

Give us the approximate weights.

I cannot.

The Senator spoke of five persons eating eight heads of cabbage. I should like to know what sort of heads they were.

I have no idea. The people who were selling these commodities were not interested in the weights. It was a question of the price they could get. One cannot say what the value of a head of cabbage is. It may be a large head or it may be a small one. If it were large, probably, it would not be unreasonable to charge 8d. for it. If it be small, it might be dear at 1d. Further than that I cannot answer the Senator's questions. Two persons engaged in selling turf were, as I have explained, arguing as to the price they should charge for it. One of them said he was getting 2/- and the other reprimanded him saying he should be getting 3/-. My own impression is that they were both overcharging in relation to the fixed price of 54/- a ton.

A considerable number of commodities which are rising in price are commodities of which there is a scarcity and whether or not there is a fixed price does not make a great deal of difference unless machinery is available to ensure that the commodity will be sold at that price.

Profiteering is rampant. Black market operators are rampant and every member of this House is aware of that. What I think is deplorable is that people who are esteemed in the public mind for their integrity and for their position in commerce and in society have fallen victims to the temptations which the black market offers. An incident of that kind was brought to my attention recently. A shopkeeper in a small way of business was induced to enter the black market as an agent for a gentleman who was extensively engaged in the smuggling business. Then the shopkeeper found that he could make money for the first time in his life by engaging in these operations. He made a great deal of money in a short time. He had a lot of loose cash lying around his small shop and, with the knowledge which local people have, that presented a difficulty. He did not know what to do with the money. He could not leave it lying around because there might be dishonest people about. He asked some people for advice about investing the money but was told that, when the dividends came in, the Revenue Commissioners might be inquiring as to where the capital came from. He did not want to put the money on deposit in the bank, so he hit upon a plan. He made up £5,000 in an envelope on which he wrote his name, took it down to the bank and asked the manager to keep it in the vaults for him. The bank manager agreed.

After some time, the old gentleman thought that he would like to have a look at the money and have the satisfaction of counting it again. He took it out of the bank, signed a receipt that the envelope was delivered to him and counted the contents at home. To his amazement, there was only £4,000 in the parcel. Somebody evidently had extracted the £1,000. He consulted some friends, including a lawyer, about the matter; they told him that the best thing he could do was to keep his mouth shut and forget the matter. The inference to be drawn from that incident is that this disease, which springs from black marketing and the things associated with it, is eating itself into our ethical standards and affecting elements in the community which we had hoped were immune from this vice. If a man cannot feel secure in placing a parcel containing money in the vaults of the bank, I think the future is rather black, so far as the integrity of the country's commerce is concerned.

I have said already that I think there is some difficulty in the way of the Government regulating prices unless the Government are willing to interfere with the freedom which the trader and the merchant have to fix prices and to conduct their businesses in any manner they think fit. I do not think that free enterprise and fixed prices go together but I do think that there is an opportunity for the Government to restrict the margin of profit where, in fact, that can be regulated. Some weeks ago—I think, on 19th December —the Minister for Industry and Commerce made an Order fixing margins of profit in regard to the articles handled in drapery shops. It is a very large document and covers, I think, nearly everything in a draper's shop. What do we find? We find that the Minister permits the wholesaler a profit of 20 per cent. and permits the retailer a profit of 30 per cent. If one firm is a wholesaler and a retailer, that firm is permitted a gross profit of 56 per cent. That is what it really means, in effect.

I think I will be able to give some figures to show what this means. For instance, in the case of a suit length, 3½ yards of material which costs 16/6 ex-factory, the profit is 32/3 to the people handling that commodity. In 1939 the profit on handling the same commodity was 11/9, so that in terms of actual cash the distributors have 137 per cent. greater profit now than they had in 1939. What is the need for that wide margin of profit? Remember that this is not the profit fixed by the trader; it is the profit fixed by the Department of Industry and Commerce. The apologists of the distributing trade tell us in the newspapers about the high expenses of distribution. I deny that the expenses are such as are stated by the apologists of the distributing trades. The Department of Industry and Commerce made a survey of distributing costs in, I think, 1933 and according to the census of distribution compiled under the direction of the Department salaries, wages and commission for the whole of the retail drapery trade in Dublin amounted to 14 per cent.

On what?

On sales.

On turnover?

Yes, on turnover. That would represent approximately 18 per cent. on cost. The retail trade is being permitted, under the most recent Order of the Department, a margin of 30 per cent., which means that, over and above the expenditure on wages, commission and bonuses, there is a margin of 12 per cent., but it is 12 per cent. on an article which is far more expensive than the article which was handled at a cost of 14 per cent. in 1933. I have mentioned the cost of a suit length. The article I had in mind would have cost 7/6 per yard, ex-factory, in 1939. That article now costs 16/6 ex-factory, so that, assuming that the rate of profit as a percentage has remained unchanged, the amount of profit in cash has increased, as I say, by 137 per cent.

With regard to the profit in other trades, perhaps the best thing I can do is to read a paragraph which appeared in the Connacht Tribune on 2nd November last. The paragraph, set in a panel, reads as follows:—

"A Westmeath fruit grower consigning apples to Dublin slit one and placed in it a note containing his address and stating: ‘I sold this apple for a penny. How much did you pay for it?' He received a reply from a Dublin woman who had purchased the apple stating that she paid 9d. for it. He did the same thing with a head of cabbage which he sold for a farthing and he received a reply stating that it had been purchased for 4d."

These are margins of profits in the greengrocery business and I think the same margin is being sought generally.

There are, of course, limits. It is untrue to suggest that the prices of all commodities have gone up in the fashion I have now described. For instance, there are a number of commodities—bread, butter, milk, and a number of similar commodities—in respect of which the margin of profit is controlled on a much narrower basis than that in the drapery trade or the greengrocery business, but what the average housewife sees is that her husband has received an increase in wages in the last six or eight weeks, which increase has been swept away, particularly since Christmas, by the increase which has taken place in the price of these essential commodities which are consumed in every household. Of course, the increase is going to go on.

We are only at the beginning of this racketeering so far as retail prices are concerned and, to some extent, of course, Government policy is responsible for the increased prices. I understand, for instance, that the Department of Local Government has intimated to the Dublin Corporation that the rents of corporation houses must be increased by 15 per cent. in March. I understand that ukase has been issued to the corporation by the Minister for Local Government: a demand that rents on working-class houses in Dublin provided by the corporation are to be increased by 15 per cent. A number of privately-owned houses built in Dublin City prior to Christmas were on offer three weeks ago at £2,000 each. I suppose that pre-war their price would range from £950 to £1,000. On the 1st January. every one of these houses was increased in price to £2,250, so that 12½ per cent. had been added to the price of a house which was completed in December last.

There were a number of advertisements or "puffs" published in the Press in respect of the auctioneering business immediately after Christmas. On the 2nd of January, for instance, the Irish Times had a statement furnished, I take it, by Adhouse & Company, Auctioneers, in which it was stated that “towards the end of the year prices had increased to over three times the pre-war level”. Another advertiser published in his statement the following particulars: “Houses that originally cost £1,800 were sold for £7,000.” That is to say, they were sold in 1946 for £7,000. This advertiser said, by way of postscript, that in one instance a house which originally cost £320 was sold for £1,825 and auctioneer's fees, which means that the house, as it grew older, increased in value to the extent of 500 per cent.

So far as I can gather all those firms which have been induced, either by agreement or by a direction of the Labour Court, to increase wages have taken steps at once to pass on not merely the increase in wages but a profit on the increased wages to their customers. In one case of which I happen to have personal knowledge, a notice was sent by a firm in Dublin to its customers saying that "as from the 1st February, the cost of their services would be increased by 25 per cent." So far as I have been able to ascertain, the wages in that firm have been increased by 15 per cent., so that Senators will observe that the firm is passing not merely the 15 per cent. wage increase but a very substantial profit on the increased wages. A well-known firm of printers in Dublin—I hope Senator Campbell will take note of the fact—in which the printers have obtained an increase in wages, has written as follows to its customers: "We are reluctantly compelled to inform you that owing to the recent heavy wage increases all estimates submitted by us previous to the 1st December, 1946, whether for work accepted or in progress, are now subject to revision. The recent increases amounted to 25/- weekly for men and 11/- for women. We are now going carefully into costings and will advise you at the earliest possible moment how the work you have placed in hands will be affected." Their customers do not know yet how they will be affected. One thing they can be sure of is that they will be affected to some extent. As I have said, our experience has been that it is not merely the increased wages which are being passed on but a substantial profit on top of these increased wages.

In one concern in the City of Dublin it has been the practice, in tendering for contracts, to include in the tender an item for wages. I think that is probably true of most concerns, but in one particular case, which I had the opportunity of examining, I saw the item "wages". The figures set down in the contract form for wages seemed very high. I asked the manager of the firm what rate of wages he was paying, and as well as I remember he said that the rate of wages now in the industry was 3/- per hour. I drew his attention to the fact that in compiling his estimate he had quoted 6/- per hour for wages. He said that was the usual practice—take wages whatever they are, and add 100 per cent. and you have the labour cost of the article.

I do not know whether the Minister for Industry and Commerce is in a position, or will be in a position, to examine estimates and figures of this kind, or whether he agrees that a manufacturer or a contractor, whether he is a builder or a plumber, or whether he is engaged in any other industry, is reasonably entitled to charge his customer in respect of labour a figure which represents 100 per cent. increase on the actual sum he pays for the work done. At any rate, if that is to go to on it seems to me that the increases in wages which have been conceded recently are illusory. Prices are going to rise to a far greater extent than the increase in wages would justify, and these increased prices are going to be followed by a demand for a further increase in wages.

We were told during the emergency that it was essential, in the national interest, to stabilise wages so as to prevent inflation, but is inflation not threatened now when all the firms which have granted increases in wages are writing to their customers where it is necessary to do so, and, of course, only where it is necessary to do so, stating that there is going to be an immediate increase in cost? Is not this the starting point of a new inflationary tendency, and does it not mean that if we do not grapple with that tendency now it is going to get out of hand completely, and that money will have no meaning whatever so far as it represents purchasing power? That is exactly what happened in some European countries after the last war. The fact that it has not been happening in countries like Great Britain, following the recent war, is due entirely to the methods adopted at the centre—the methods adopted by the Government to control everything in order to maintain prices stable. We succeeded, for a period of five years or more, in keeping wages stable; we did not keep prices stable, and that is the tragedy we are up against now.

Comparing the rise in prices in this country with what took place elsewhere, one can see at once what has been happening. I do not want to go back to 1914 to take the figure upon which the cost-of-living index is based in order to illustrate what I am saying. I am taking the figure for 1929. There is a great number of countries which have the base figure calculated in relation to the costs in 1929. Amongst them are this country, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and America.

What has been happening? Taking the figure of 100 as representing the cost of living in Great Britain in 1929, it became 96, a drop of 4 per cent., by 1939. With us the figure had become 101, an increase of 1 per cent., in 1939. By August, 1946, the British figure had become 124, an increase of 24 per cent. over the figure for 1929. In August, 1946, our figure had become 164, an increase of 64 per cent. between 1929 and August, 1946. As a matter of fact, of all the countries with which one can reasonably make a comparison, our costs have gone up out of all proportion to what has been experienced elsewhere.

In Britain the figure is 124 in 1946, related to a figure of 100 for 1929, in New Zealand the figure is 113, in Australia the figure is 110, in Canada it is 104, in the United States of America it is 115, in Switzerland it is 129, and in Sweden, which is the nearest approach to our figure of 164, it is 143. The rise in prices so far as this country is concerned is due not entirely to the viciousness of our traders or manufacturers. It is due in part, and in a substantial part, to Government policy. The Government were not adverse to the traders making substantial profits so long as they could collect additional revenue from those who made the profits. The result was that during the war period the Government collected in excess profits roughly £40,000,000. There is temptation there, of course, temptation to a Government to allow prices to soar so long as it brings more revenue to the Exchequer. As Oscar Wilde might have said, the Government can resist anything but temptation.

The effect of these increases to which I have referred is to depreciate the purchasing power of the money which is in circulation among wage-earners, pensioners and people with fixed incomes. Broadly speaking, the pound which is paid to-day in wages, in the form of pensions or in any other form, has approximately the purchasing power that 11/- would have had in 1939. It is rather disquieting to remember that the effect of that depreciation in the purchasing power of money is this, that it is the equivalent of a cut of 3/- a week in the old age pension. It is a cut, of course, of a greater amount in the incomes of those who have no means of improving their incomes by increased wages or otherwise. Take an ex-teacher, an employee of a local authority, a civil servant, a Guard— anyone out on pension. His pre-1939 income is reduced to the extent of 9/- in the £. The old age pensioner's decrease has not been so great because of certain compensations provided by food vouchers or by the cash addition which was made in the case of those living in rural areas. My submission is that the old age pensioner has suffered a decrease of 3/- a week. Those who have fixed incomes settled in 1939 have suffered a reduction of 9/- in the £ in their incomes.

Another way in which the Government policy affects the purchasing power of the community is in relation to the manner in which, taking tariffs as an instance, the import duty is passed on to the community. Tariffs in most cases were fixed long before 1939 and the import duty was related to the then cost price of the imported commodity. That price has gone up considerably, but the rate of duty has remained steady as a percentage. Let us assume that the price of an article subject to 20 per cent. in 1939 was 5/-. The duty would be 1/-. If that article is now costing 10/- the duty is 2/-. We know that duties are very rarely as low as 20 per cent. Up to very recently the duty on clothing and materials was 25 per cent. That has been cancelled temporarily. The cancellation is effective up to March only. It has been cancelled merely because the Government saw that the income from customs duties was out of all proportion to the value of the commodities imported. But the duties range up to 75 per cent. There are still some 75 per cent. duties left. Razor blades bear 75 per cent., while cutlery and bedsteads carry a duty of 50 per cent.

I was speaking recently to a person who was in the habit of importing artificial silk fabric on which there was, up till recently, an import duty of 40 per cent. I asked him to calculate what effect that duty had on the selling price. He told me that the effect was as follows:—A yard of material cost him 6/- at the Port of Dublin, to which was added an import duty of 2/5. The wholesaler added 20 per cent. profit, which brought the price payable by the retailer up to 10/-. The retailer added 30 per cent., or 3/2, which brought the retail price to 13/3. Therefore, the article which cost 6/- delivered to the Port of Dublin was selling to the ultimate consumer at 13/3. Now, if there had been no duty on the commodity and if the margins of profit remained unchanged, the selling price would have been 9/4. The duty, therefore, was not merely 2/5; it was 2/5 plus two profits on 2/5, bringing the figure to 3/11; so that actually the duty payable by the consumer was not 40 per cent. but 65 per cent. on the actual value of the article imported.

I suggest to the Minister that, having regard to the manner in which prices have risen, not merely the price of the home-produced article, but the price of the imported article, there is an urgent case for revising the whole of the tariff schedule. If the Minister considers that 40 per cent. was an adequate protection for an Irish industry in 1939 when prices were fixed at a certain level, then he is bound in duty to re-examine the situation now when prices of the imported articles are doubled and when in fact he observes that the tariff as paid by the consumer is not 40 per cent. but, as I have shown in this case, 65 per cent.

I want to say one word more on the effect of the present tariff policy on the cost of commodities. I do not want to be misunderstood: I am not objecting to tariffs. I think there is a number of cases in which it is essential in the public interest that we should have tariffs so far as these tariffs are a protection for the home producer. I challenge the wisdom, however, of a policy which goes beyond that point and which has the effect of increasing prices unreasonably and causing the whole fabric of the price structure to go to pieces. In the first nine months of 1938, the value of our imports was £30.3 million. The import duty on that volume of imports was £9.6 million. For the first nine months of 1946-7, that is the nine months commencing 1st April, 1946, the customs duty on our imported goods was £13,220,000 and, so far as I am able to calculate, the volume of goods imported in the nine months I have mentioned was equal to 42 per cent. of the volume imported during the corresponding period in 1938. There fore, on a volume of imports, which represents 42 per cent. of the volume imported in 1938, we are paying £13.2 million in duty as against £9.6 million in 1938. In other words, if the figures for the last three months of the financial year continue on the same lines as those of the first nine months, the receipts from customs duty will be approximately £18,000,000. The Government estimated they would get £15.4 million this year. It looks as if they will get £18,000,000, as against £9.6 million in 1938, on a volume of imports which is only 42 per cent. of what we had in 1938.

Surely this is not protection. This is a method of levying an indirect tax on the community as a whole and it is a most successful method of transferring the burden of taxation from the shoulders of the rich to the bent backs of the poor. I suggest therefore that the question of Government policy is involved in this whole question of price fixing and price control. There is, of course, even more involved than merely the tax policy and the tariff policy of the Government. There is also involved the question of the monetary policy of this country. The Minister and the Government, of course, are on the horns of a dilemma. They have to sit back while thousands and thousands of our people emigrate to Britain in search of work that cannot be provided here and send home from Britain telegraph orders to the local shopkeepers to provide their wives and families with food and clothing and all the things they need. So long as our people are forced to go to Britain and, once they have arrived there, are enabled to order, by means of a telegraph form, a shopkeeper to provide milk, eggs, boots and clothing for the people at home, then the Government have no control whatever over a large area of the price structure. This, of course, would take us over a wide field and I do not propose to pursue it now.

I have raised this matter before with the Minister. I have raised it with the Minister for Finance. Other members of this House have referred to it. Of course, the reply we got was not very helpful. The general feeling I personally have is that the subject is one in which the Government is not interested. The Central Bank was established to maintain the superiority of the British economic system in this country. It was established primarily for the purpose of securing that an Irish £ must be exchangeable with an English £. So long as that remains the policy of the Government, the Minister for Industry and Commerce may be as eloquent, as forceful and as convincing as he likes in this House but his hands are tied and he has no power whatever to control prices.

There are certain commodities in respect of which prices can be controlled. The Minister has controlled, for instance, the price of bread and the price of butter, but the vast majority of the commodities with which the people are concerned are not controlled, and even where there is control, in my opinion, it is utterly ineffective. It is ineffective, let us say, in the drapery trade. I was speaking last week to a lady who had returned from England. She told me of an experience she had in Dublin. She purchased a jumper in a draper's shop in Grafton Street for 45/-. She had a suspicion that it was very like one that she had bought in England a few weeks before. She compared the two jumpers and found they were the same in every particular except colour. She found inside the sleeve of the jumper she purchased in Grafton Street a stamp, "British Utility". She had paid 15/- for the similar article she had purchased in Britain. An article sold in Britain across the counter at 15/- was sold in Dublin for 45/-. How it got to Dublin I do not know, because I understand the British Government is not permitting the export of utility clothing, but I have ample evidence that it is being done. A gentleman in this House two days ago showed me a pair of socks he bought in a leading Dublin warehouse for 4/11 and discovered afterwards that they were British Utility socks selling in Britain over the counter at 2/-. That is not an isolated instance. That sort of thing is widespread, the only difference being that in Ireland you are paying 2½ to 3 times more for the utility article than is being paid in Britain.

I am satisfied that even price fixing where it has been tried and advertised and where Orders have been made has been utterly ineffective. I do not think I need go into the matter further. I am pointing out to the House that we are up against a serious position. We are up against the position that if we cannot hold prices it is dishonest to try to hold down wages. If the Minister says he cannot control prices, then he had better make up his mind to say that he cannot control wages and let the whole matter go, but if we are going to try to control wages, earnings, incomes, then we must control prices, irrespective of what that policy involves.

In seconding the motion, I should like to congratulate Senator Duffy on the excellent case he has made for the motion standing in his name. Nothing in recent years has caused so much public tension as the question of the increased cost of living, particularly over the last few months. That is not confined to the City of Dublin but exists in every centre in the Twenty-Six Counties. Recently, the Minister controlled the price of potatoes. I hope, when he is replying to this discussion, he will tell us on what basis he allows shopkeepers to charge 1/8 a stone for potatoes. On the very day that potatoes were controlled in Dublin at 1/8 a stone, I saw potatoes being sold on the Rathmines Road at 1/5 per stone. No later than yesterday I saw potatoes being sold at 1/5 per stone. Potatoes are an essential commodity so far as the majority of the working people of the City of Dublin and elsewhere are concerned and I hope the Minister will be able to give an explanation to the House as to why he controlled potatoes at 1/8 a stone when shopkeepers can sell them at 1/5.

Comparisons are invidious but I was in Belfast at Christmas time and I saw potatoes at 8½d. per stone. I should like, if it is possible, to get an explanation of the difference between the controlled price of 1/8 a stone here and an uncontrolled price of 8½d. a stone in another part of the country. My friend Senator Duffy has referred to the cost of vegetables. The problem that affects the lives of the people more than anything else is the cost of food, bread, potatoes, fruit, vegetables, when they can get them. It is the availability of these things that makes life possible for nine-tenths of the workers in the Twenty-Six Counties as well as elsewhere. It is not impossible for the Government to create machinery to prevent undue profits being made just as the Government created machinery to prevent wages being increased during the war period. No matter what machinery the Government may create the wiles of the employers and of the manufacturers can generally enable them to get around the provisions that are made by a well-meaning Government to regulate prices.

At the same time as the Government introduced the Standstill Wages Order they endeavoured to control profits. They laid it down that a firm was not to make more than 6 per cent. on a certain basis but Senators know quite well that that provision was honoured more in the breach than in the observance. We have all seen instances over the last few years, where companies had subsidiary companies which were able to make a profit of 6 per cent. and a further 6 per cent. and on another occasion, a further 6 per cent. These profits were made by the employers. So that one sympathises with the Government to a certain extent in the difficulties of the problem. But that is what Government are for. Governments are there to face problems and to enable the ordinary working man and woman to live in a sort of half-decency in any country. It is to that end that this motion has been put down—to point out that the existing machinery is insufficient, unsatisfactory and unable, apparently, to prevent an increase in the cost of living, and to put it up to the Government that they should devise ways and means to reduce the cost of living and to enable profits to be limited. One might go further and say a lot on this subject but sufficient has been said, at least to show that it is the duty of the Government to see that profits are limited to a reasonable extent and that these unconscionable profiteers should be controlled by the Government. I have great pleasure in seconding the motion.

Before entering upon what I hope will be a brief discussion of this motion, because I should like to hear the Minister on it, I wish to say that I regret the absence of my colleague, Senator Douglas, who is recovering from a long illness and who otherwise would have been present. He would have been able to deal with this matter from many angles—as a public man and as a trader who has a long experience both on the manufacturing and retail side. I have no such experience. I agree with Senator Kyle that Senator Duffy deserves to be congratulated on bringing this matter before us. The speech which Senator Duffy made carried us very far indeed but it seems to me that we could easily lose ourselves in a discussion on this matter by going into very wide issues which in fact will not remedy the difficulty—the very great difficulty—in which we now find ourselves.

The issue I think is not a Party issue and is not one that should be treated as a Party issue. It is as serious as the emergency in which we found ourselves at the beginning of the war and I think it would be worth our while to try to treat it in a similar manner, that is to say, by co-operative effort. There is agreement at least on one thing and that is that it would be much better to keep down prices than to raise wages. I think all classes are agreed on that matter because if you could increase the real value of wages, that is, to make wages buy more, then you would have certainly accomplished something for everybody, more than you could accomplish by constant rises in wages, following, but not overtaking, rises in prices. From the point of view of the working-class household and from the point of view of many people who are not normally deemed to be members of the working-class, like many colleagues of my own at the university and a great many civil servants, the real difficulty is that prices have risen out of all proportion to the advances in wages or salaries. When a woman who has a certain limited sum to spend in the week goes into a shop, she finds the greatest difficulty in buying even enough Irish produced food for her family. If as must happen almost every week, she has to buy a suit of clothes or a pair of boots for a child, the prices of these commodities are so great that the whole family budget is thrown out of gear. In other words she cannot cope with that situation. For that reason I take it that when Senator Duffy mentions foodstuffs specifically in the motion, he really means to allude not only to foodstuffs but to essential commodities because boots and clothes are as essential to the labouring community and to all of us as foodstuffs. They are particularly essential to those who have to do manual work.

There are certain ultimate remedies on which I suppose we will be in agreement but our real difficulty is to find immediate remedies. The ultimate remedy, which neither the mover nor the seconder of the motion mentioned, is of course, more production, and more imports, not more production or imports, but rather more production and imports whether by way of raw materials or otherwise. On the matter of finding a remedy before you can get higher production, because it is difficult to get higher production without certain raw materials which are in short supply, you might be able to take certain intermediate remedies.

There is, it seems to me, absolutely no use in discussing this matter on the basis that if you could get after the profiteer you would remedy everything. I feel as Senator Duffy feels and as a great many other people feel, that there must undoubtedly be some profiteering at present. I know that the difference between the producer's price and the retailer's price in many cases, as in the case of farmer's produce, is enormous but it seems to me that that is not the kernel of the situation. Even if you got after that —and it is one of the things that could be got after—you would not really have reduced prices satisfactorily. That is to say, while admitting a certain amount of profiteering, the whole explanation of high prices does not lie in the taking of undue profits. If undue profits are in existence, I think they should be reduced, but even if you succeed in doing that, you would not by any means have solved the whole problem.

There is, for example, a very great difference between profit-fixing and price-fixing. A process of profit-fixing has been resorted to in some cases but a manufacturer friend of mine pointed this out to me, and it seems to be good logic, that if the Minister allows, say, a profit of 20 per cent. on the cost of production of a certain article, an incompetent manufacturer may produce that article at a cost of £100 on which he would be entitled to charge £20 profit while the competent manufacturer who could produce the same article at £80 would only receive a profit of £16. A further consideration is that the retailer in many cases would prefer to deal with the incompetent manufacturer in these circumstances than with the competent manufacturer because he would get a higher profit. So the fixing of profit may, in fact, have the result of increasing prices to the consumer rather than reducing them. Therefore, looking upon this problem as something with which you can deal upon a mathematical basis by percentages is not in fact going to give you what you want to achieve—a more plentiful supply of goods at reasonable prices.

The same remarks apply to the fixing of prices for imported articles. If the price of an imported article is fixed at a level at which people will not bother importing it, the result may be that you will have a smaller supply at a lower price but not a satisfactory supply. With regard to prices generally, what strikes me is that shopkeepers should not be condemned without a fair opportunity of defending themselves.

Shopkeepers, like every other member of the community, should get a fair trial if they are going to be accused. I think for that purpose a tribunal should be set up which would allay feeling in the public mind. If there is an allegation that there is undue profiteering in certain trades the Minister should set up a tribunal in which civil servants would have the assistance of experts from outside with experience in the various trades affected. It would be well worth while if the public could be educated in these matters, and if the profits in particular trades could be publicly ascertained so that the citizens generally would be enlightened. Unless citizens are enlightened, there is bound to be a great deal of public uneasiness.

I do not know how in the City of Dublin, even on the best level of trade union wages, people are able to live. That is the information I get when I make any investigation into this matter and I have some intimate knowledge of it. As I say, the best wage paid does not allow for the purchase of any extra commodity in the way of a suit of clothes, for example. I do not think the Government can be blamed for that entirely, although as Senator Duffy said, Government policy was a policy which did tend to make prices rise. There is not much use in discussing now what brought us into this crisis. We should rather ask ourselves what it is we can do, and what we should ask the Government to do, to help us in order to get out of this difficult situation. I think, for example, every member of the public who can afford to do so should be called upon to make sacrifices and would be willing to make sacrifices. Remember there are a great many people who cannot afford to make any sacrifices at all, and others will certainly be very unwilling to make them unless they can be convinced that a real attempt is being made to help those in need, unless an attempt is being made to hold down the price of essential articles—not only foodstuffs as the motion mentions, but also clothing for the ordinary people. I do not think it matters much what prices certain luxury goods reach. The English system, as one sees it in Belfast and as one hears from England, seems to be that by subsidy an ordinary person can get a good wearable article and ordinary foodstuffs are kept at a reasonable price.

If people on the higher incomes or profits want to buy other things, they can buy them at a price. One does not mind that particular thing at all. The time has now come when an attempt must be made to provide cheaper essential goods, whether we do it by subsidy or not. We are subsidising certain things at present. If we could get sufficient materials, perhaps the most important thing of all then is to have the ordinary goods sold at a reasonable price.

It does strike one, in Dublin particularly, that there are many people who seem to have an immense amount of money, particularly in the direction in which I live—they are newcomers, who have started mushroom factories; but the ordinary person is not able to keep pace with the rising cost of living. I am inclined to agree that, if wages had not been so tightly clamped down but allowed to rise more gradually than has happened, we would not have this result—by the fact that they were clamped down unduly we now have great demands taking place.

With regard to tariffs, I agree that tariffs raise the cost of living to a much greater extent than the apparent ad valorem percentage; but I understand also that practically all those tariffs have been removed. The Minister could tell us if that is so. I think that, allowing for removing tariffs, the Minister will also have to remove licences and quotas. I am not sufficiently skilled to say what import quotas are still remaining—that is, remaining within our control—but it does seem that a free field for imports should be given for a specific period, without restrictions as far as possible; and then we shall have to reconsider, in the light of the new circumstances, what our tariff policy is. Obviously, when prices rise very considerably, the tariff produces a greater amount. I wonder where the immense income from customs came from in the first nine months of 1946. It is not at all on drapery goods, I understand, as I believe there was no duty on piece goods, while made-up goods came in in very small quantities. I think there is immense revenue, if I do not make a mistake, on tobacco and on some wines, but the Minister might be able to tell us where that particular money comes from. Most certainly, no tariff policy in a period of inflated prices should be allowed to increase the cost to the consumer so as to make it impossible for him to live.

With regard to the whole question of what can be done, there are a great many things, perhaps, outside our power. We have to recognise that certain things are in short supply, but also we must recognise that whatever is there should be distributed fairly and at a fair price, when it is a national necessity. Not only is it a Christian duty and a national duty for us to see that people can live, but as a matter of fact, if we want to survive as a community at all, we must be prepared to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to see that we do not run into endless increases through wages endeavouring to follow prices. That would spell disaster, not only for the wage earner but probably for everybody else as well, with very few exceptions.

We should have an inquiry into the rise in the prices of certain essential foodstuffs and of other important articles of clothing. The Minister would need the assistance of people outside the Civil Service for that. In order to allay the kind of stories one hears constantly, it would be worth while spending public money on enlightening the public in regard to these matters. It would be correct to give fair play and to hear people who are being accused of making enormous profits. For example, a greengrocer with whom I deal and who does not seem to be a very wealthy man, denies vigorously to me at all times—and supplies proof now and again, though I am not sufficiently skilled to understand the matter carefully—that the ordinary greengrocer makes the big profit which would appear between the price the producers of the goods get and the price paid by the people who have to buy them. There may be certain stores making a big profit, but one wonders whether the ordinary shop throughout the country is making the enormous profits we have heard about. We will hardly be able to control prices without spending money and the dilemma would appear to be that we may solve this very real emergency but, if it costs us money, we cannot allow that cost to interfere with production. If we are going to take up a situation whereby there will be a rising impost on production, we will be defeating our own aims in the end. For example, we might be able to spend a public loan on that kind of subsidy.

There are many things one could say on this motion. For instance, we have this business of being tied to the English £. That is something we cannot remedy and, even if we could, and even if there is anything in what has been said here to-night, it would not prevent certain inescapable facts from being so—would not prevent us from being near England or from being short of certain goods.

This is not a Party matter. It is not a matter in which people should endeavour to force their own particular economic or political theories into operation, under the guise of helping to reduce the cost of living. It is not a matter on which eloquence or anger or accusations will be of any value to the harassed housewife or the poorer members of the community. It is a situation in which it would do us great good to look the real facts in the face, having first ascertained them, and then see whether the Minister or anyone else can suggest immediate remedies. We should have the greatest possible co-operation that we can get then to put those remedies into operation.

Whatever the motive of Senator Duffy's motion, or of a similar motion which has been tabled by his colleagues in the Dáil—whether it is a desire for political advantage or evidence of a genuine, if belated, development of interest in the Irish Labour Party in price-control problems—it is to be welcomed. In that I fully agree with Senator Hayes. Whatever the motives of the campaign which certain newspapers have been conducting, if it reflects a genuine awakening of interest amongst the public in these problems, it is also to be welcomed. Anything which indicates a development of public interest in price problems is very desirable. I think it is no exaggeration to say that the greatest of the difficulties which the Government encountered during the war was in arousing public interest and securing public support in the enforcement of regulations for price-control and for rationing.

I am sure everybody will agree that no system of control, no matter how carefully it is devised, no matter how strongly it is supported by a number of regulations and decrees, no matter how vigorously it is enforced by hundreds of Government officials, can be really effective unless it has public support and unless the co-operation necessary to make it effective is forthcoming. Even at this late hour, if a lively public interest should develop in price-control and in the enforcement of rationing regulations — because rationing is, of course, a method of price-control—it can be only beneficial. Frankly, I was disappointed at the speech delivered by Senator Duffy in support of his motion. I thought he would have given us a serious and documented case to support his contention that "existing machinery for controlling prices is inadequate and unsatisfactory", or that he would have given us his views, and the views of his Party, on the economic measures which they believed to be practical to ensure a "substantial reduction in prices"—to quote his motion—or that he would deal in some way with the question of the subsidising the prices of foodstuffs to which his motion refers but to which he made no reference. Senator Duffy told us that he had reason to believe that price-control regulations were being evaded by some traders. I am sure that that is so. There are about 40,000 retail trading establishments in this State. If we assume that, on the average, 100 transactions take place daily in each of these establishments, it represents 4,000,000 transactions every day. It is not possible for any system of supervision by a Government organisation or of enforcement by Government inspectors to prevent the evasion of price-regulations if the public are not prepared to co-operate in the enforcing of these regulations, firstly, by refusing to buy at prices in excess of those fixed by Order and, secondly, by reporting attempts to charge prices in excess of those fixed by Order.

I should like, however, to deal with this matter in a more general way than Senator Duffy attempted. We have got the complaint prevalent amongst the public that prices are too high. That is an understandable complaint on behalf of the ordinary citizen who is not acquainted with history or economic theory. I am sure, however, that members of the Seanad did not expect in 1939 that we could come through a great war—the greatest and most destructive war in history, lasting over five years—without experiencing an increase in prices. There is nothing in our history or in our experience of other in the history or experience of other countries, which would have led us to believe that an increase in prices could have been avoided. Every great war has resulted in an increase in prices. In fact I should say that nothing in history or in our own experience would have justified in 1939 the expectation that we should come through a great war lasting a number of years with an increase in prices not exceeding 70 per cent. According to our own cost-of-living index, prices have increased here by, approximately, 70 per cent. I shall say a few words later as to the reliability of the cost-of-living index as a measure of the rise in prices. Taking it for the moment as an accurate measure, it shows that we have had, since 1938, a rise in prices of, roughly, 70 per cent.

We have got to consider this problem from two points of view. The complaint of the general public is that there is a rise in prices. The average citizen is perturbed, irritated and inconvenienced by the rise in prices. He is not much concerned with the cause of the rise. He knows that it is affecting him and he is anxious that, if possible, something should be done to reverse the movement of prices. It is, however, contended here, as elsewhere, that in this country the rise in prices has been of a character which could have been avoided, that there was something the Government could have done which would have prevented a rise or prevented a rise to the extent to which it occurred, that our method of regulating prices was ineffective or that our methods of curtailing manufacturers' and traders' profits were not sufficiently drastic. Before we can decide whether or not a rise in prices of, roughly, 70 per cent. was reasonable in all the circumstances, something we might have expected when the war began, knowing the results of past wars, we have got to consider what, in fact, happened on other occasions as well as, for the purpose of examining the efficacy of our methods of control, what happened during this war elsewhere.

The first world war lasted four years. Its duration was shorter than the war recently finished, and it did not extend over the same area of the globe or involve the same number of countries. When that war ended in November, 1918, prices were 120 per cent. above what they had been when the war started. It is true that we and other Governments have learned a great deal about the technique of price-control and of methods of avoiding price-rises from the experience of that war. One thing which, I think, is well worth noting, because it contrasts strongly with our present experience, is that the rise in prices caused by the first world war did not stop when hostilities ceased. In fact, the rise became accelerated when the war ended and, two years after the end of hostilities—in November, 1920—prices were 176 per cent. above what they were when the war began. Some downward movement of prices then developed but, when the first cost-of-living index for the Irish Free State was published in 1923, it showed that prices then were still some 90 per cent. above what they were on the outbreak of hostilities. It rose somewhat in the ensuing years to 95 per cent. in 1925. It was only in 1926 that the first continuous downward movement in prices began.

I should like to remind the House, and particularly members of the House who regard themselves as custodians of labour interests, that, with the commencement of a downward movement in prices in 1926, there began also mass unemployment. There is nothing in economic history or theory to support the view that low and falling prices are good for the workers. In fact, I think that all history and all theory will support the opposite contention, that falling prices give rise to unemployment and cause hardship to those dependent on their labour for their livelihood. Our cost of living rose 70 per cent. since 1938 and by a somewhat lower percentage since 1939. While we regard that increase as not unsatisfactory compared with the much greater increase recorded in the first world war, it is, nevertheless, a situation which we have to examine. We have to consider whether the 70 per cent. increase of prices here could have been avoided, whether our measures of control could have been made more severe, whether our systems of enforcing those measures could have been made more effective in order to prevent even a 70 per cent. rise in prices.

It was mentioned in this debate that the Government decided upon a policy of stabilising wages. It is not quite accurate to use the word "stabilising" in that regard, because increases of wages on a flat-rate basis were permitted and, in fact, the wage-rate index and the index of industrial earnings show increases over the figure for 1939. It was suggested, however, that, although we did succeed in effectively stabilising wages, we did not succeed in stabilising prices. It is true that, in the first years of the war, prices rose steadily and substantially.

Taking the cost-of-living index number as a reliable guide, we find that prices rose by 18 per cent. in 1940, by 12 per cent. in 1941, by 14 per cent. in 1942 and by 18 per cent. in 1943. In 1943, prices were stabilised and there has been no upward movement in prices since the last quarter of 1943. I think that point must be emphasised because the recent development of public interest, if the agitation in the newspapers does indicate the development of public interest, is somewhat belated, in view of the fact that, since 1943, all prices in this country have been stabilised, at any rate so far as the official statistics published periodically indicate the position.

In the November quarter of 1943, the general cost-of-living index stood at 294. In the November quarter of 1946, it stood at 293. The food-price index for the November quarter of 1943 was 261 and, for the November quarter of 1946, it was 268; the clothing-price index was 439 in 1943 and 426 in 1946; the fuel and light index was 338 in 1943 and 395 in 1946. Similarly, as any Senator who chooses to study the official statistics published in the Irish Trade Journal will discover, all the other price indices—the wholesale-price index, the import-price index and the agricultural-price index—became more or less stabilised in 1943 and have remained unchanged since then. That does not mean that there have not been fluctuations in individual prices. There have been such fluctuations, but the general price situation since 1943 is as revealed by these indices. Within each class, individual commodities may have increased in price or decreased in price, but the general picture is revealed by the indices.

In order, however, to support that contention. I will mention certain articles the prices of which are taken into account in preparing the cost-of-living index. Since 1943, there has been no change in the price of bacon, pork, sausages, fish, butter, cheese, lard, milk, fresh or condensed milk, bread, flour, cigarettes or tobacco. In 1946, the prices of the following commodities were reduced: tea, soap, candles, gas in Dublin and some other districts, turf, paraffin, sugar and jam. The decrease of a penny per lb. in the price of sugar effected last year was off-set by the increase which was made in the past few weeks for reasons of which the Seanad is aware. The decrease in the price of jam may be off-set by an increase consequent on the increase in the price of sugar.

I have quoted the cost-of-living index as a guide to the general price situation and I have stated that, in so far as the cost-of-living index is a reliable guide to what is happening, there has been stability in our price situation since the last quarter of 1943. I think, however, that we are inclined to use the cost-of-living index without full regard to what it means. The Irish cost-of-living index shows the variations in the cost of maintaining unaltered the standard of living which was shown by a family budget inquiry to have been enjoyed by the average worker's family in 1922. I want the House to note particularly the reference I have made to maintaining unaltered the family budget which the worker's family enjoyed in 1922. In 1922, there were no scarcities. There was an abundant supply of all commodities and some commodities at various seasons of that year were regarded as cheap. We all know that the family budget of the average worker has not remained unaltered. It could not have remained unaltered by reason of the introduction of rationing, by reason of the development of scarcities of various commodities and by reason of the disappearance entirely of some of the commodities which were taken into account, and are still taken into account, in determining the cost-of-living index number.

Senator Duffy made a comparison between the rise in prices here and the rise in prices in Great Britain on a basis of comparing our cost-of-living index number with the British index number. That can lead the Senator into considerable errors. The British cost-of-living index number is not prepared upon the same basis as the Irish cost-of-living index number. The British cost-of-living index is based upon a family budget inquiry carried out in the year 1904 and I do not have to tell members of the Seanad, and particularly Labour members, that there was a very substantial improvement in the standard of living of the average worker between a date ten years before the first world war and a date four years after its termination. In fact, if we compare the basis upon which the cost-of-living index number is prepared here and in Great Britain, we will find a large part of the explanation of the different effects of the war on the British index and on our own.

Would the Minister recollect that I took a base figure for 1929 of 100 in both cases?

The Senator can start his index any way he likes. The basis of the British figure is a family budget inquiry carried out in 1904. Let me tell the Senator the effect of that. The British assume that the average worker spends 60 per cent. of his total income upon food, 16 per cent. upon rent, 12 per cent. upon clothing, 8 per cent. on fuel and light and 4 per cent. upon sundries, such as tobacco, drink, amusements like the cinema, transport and so forth. We all know that that pattern of expenditure is completely out of relation to modern circumstances. Our index assumes that the worker here spends 17½ per cent. of his income upon clothing as against the British 12 per cent., 13 per cent. upon tobacco, drink, amusements and travel as against the British 4 per cent. and only 5½ per cent. on rent as against 16 per cent. in the case of the British index.

I am not contending that either their basis or our basis is completely reliable in present circumstances. What I want to point out is that much lower allowance in the British index for clothing and sundries—sundries including tobacco, drink, amusement and travel, the costs of which have risen enormously in Great Britain—and the much higher allowance for rent, which has remained the most stable item in our cost of living here, explain very considerably the difference in the rise in the British index compared to ours, leaving out of account altogether the very heavy subsidisation of foodstuffs upon which the British Government embarked. The British Government deliberately endeavoured to keep down the cost-of-living index, not to keep down the cost of living. They imposed heavy taxation upon tabacco and drink, which were weighted very lightly in their cost-of-living index, and used the revenue secured from these heavy taxes to subsidise food prices which were weighted highly. The actual rise in prices in Great Britain was much more substantial than the index reveals. I think it is true to say that the rise in prices here was less substantial than our index reveals.

In 1943 an inter-Departmental Committee was set up to keep the cost of living in this country under review, to meet continuously and report continuously to the Government upon all matters bearing on the cost of living. That committee in 1943 estimated that a cost-of-living index, based on the reduction in the actual quantities of goods consumed in 1943 as compared with the average pre-war year, would have given a figure of 243 as against the actual figure of 284 in that year as representing the rise in the cost of living. If we want to compare prices, and the rise in prices in this country, with Great Britain then we have to go to some other source of information than the British cost-of-living index number in order to get a reliable picture. I think that the rise in prices in Great Britain can be more readily gauged in view of the invalidity of their cost-of-living index for the reasons I have stated by examining the changes which occurred in the wholesale price of British manufactured goods. These changes not merely reveal the real rise in prices but they also go some way to explain the changes which have occurred in the cost of importing into this country goods ordinarily supplied here from Great Britain. The most recent figures are contained in the British Board of Trade Journal for January 11, 1947. That journal reveals that the following increases in wholesale prices have taken place in Great Britain since 1938: coal 98.3 per cent.; iron and steel 55 per cent.; non-ferrous metals 90.1 per cent.; cotton 134 per cent.; wool 90 per cent.; other textiles 136.4 per cent.; chemicals and oils 67.5 per cent. The total over all industrial materials and manufactures is stated to be 86.4 per cent.

In that connection, the British Board of Trade Journal states as follows:—

"Since 1938 basic materials have risen by 123 per cent., intermediate products by 95 per cent., manufactured articles by 61 per cent. and building materials by 77 per cent."

I am giving that information concerning the price position in Great Britain so that Senators can have it in their minds when they are deciding whether or not the increase in prices of in or about 70 per cent. here is to be regarded as an indication of ineffective price control or of undue profit-taking by persons engaged in manufacturing or commercial enterprises.

Prices have risen in all countries. It is true that the average person who speaks about the price situation here usually contents himself with comparing prices here with prices in Great Britain. I have endeavoured to show that the cost of living index numbers of the two countries do not offer a valid basis for comparison. I have endeavoured to show that even if we ignore the British subsidisation policy there are differences in the methods of compiling the two indices, which make comparison invalid. I will deal later on with the question of subsidising foodstuffs here and endeavour to show that the policy which the British Government adopted during the war, and is still carrying on, would be impracticable for us. I think, however, that before we come to any general conclusion concerning the effectiveness of the measures that we took to prevent an undue rise in prices, before we come to any conclusion as to whether the rise in prices that, in fact, occurred was reasonable or unreasonable, we should also have regard to what has happened in countries other than Great Britain. Senator Duffy quoted certain statistics in that regard which I did not recognise. He did not state where he got his figures. I want to give authority for mine. They are all taken from the British Ministry of Labour Gazette, recent numbers of which contain statistics of price increases during the war in a number of countries. They did not contain statistics for all countries, and I have not got statistics for all countries.

My figures were taken from the most recent publication of I.L.O.

I want, however, to make quite clear the element of risk there is in instituting comparisons between price rises in one country and another without having all the relevant data. One cannot be sure whether the price level in any country was unduly high or unduly low before the war, or whether there were any special circumstances affecting their price levels during the war. It would be natural to expect that in a country like Canada, which is a great producer of foodstuffs for export, the rise in the cost of food would be much less than in this country where we artificially stimulated the price of wheat and other farm products in order to encourage maximum production. The price of food in Canada rose by 47 per cent. during the war. It is difficult for anyone not familiar with the facts to relate that increase in Canada with an increase of 88 per cent. in the United States, where general conditions appear to be somewhat similar. It has also to be remembered that the present condition of some European countries is influenced beneficially by the fact that they have strong exporting industries producing goods which other countries want to buy and which enable them to get into the world's markets to buy foodstuffs and other necessary materials on favourable terms through ordinary inter-governmental channels. Switzerland and Sweden are in that position. These countries have strong exporting industries based on technical experience and skill and producing industrial equipment which everybody wants to buy. By reason of the demands for their currencies by that situation and their general effective bargaining power they have been able to keep their current cost of living below the average for Europe. The cost of living in Sweden is 44 per cent. above pre-war and in Switzerland 51 per cent. above pre-war.

I think we must also leave out of account those countries where there has been a deliberate devaluation of the currency. No useful comparison can be made between this country and Italy where prices, according to the official statistics, have risen since the outbreak of the war by 2,500 per cent. In France, Bulgaria and Finland and in other European countries similar special factors have been at work, with the result that there have been astronomical rises in the cost of living which do not permit of any reasonable comparison with our circumstances.

Are these quotations representative of black market prices?

These are official statistics. Apart from the countries which I have mentioned, the official cost-of-living index figures actually published by governmental authority in various countries and published in the British Ministry of Labour Gazette show the following increases in prices compared with pre-war for the countries listed in that publication: Brazil 116 per cent.; Holland 199 per cent; Iceland 191 per cent; India 157 per cent.; Palestine 173 per cent.; Portugal 109 per cent. I again want to repeat that no undue use should be made of these figures because it may be that before the war or now there existed in those countries special circumstances which operated upon their price levels and which do not exist here. Any comparison must be very cautious, but I give these figures to show that a rise in the cost of living of roughly 70 per cent. is not out of proportion with the rise in prices which has taken place elsewhere and does not reveal any undue weakness in our price control arrangements and, what is more important, any undue inflationary tendency yet at work here.

We must also relate our general rise of 70 per cent. or thereabouts in prices with the agricultural price index and the import price index. Our agricultural price index shows that agricultural prices have increased by 90 per cent. as compared with 1938. Our import price index shows that the cost of goods imported increased by 122 per cent. as compared with 1938, and, in view of that greater increase in the price of foodstuffs purchased from Irish farmers and the cost of importing goods from abroad, we cannot regard the 70 per cent. increase in the general retail price level as unreasonable or indicative of undue profit-taking by those engaged in the distribution trades.

In view of the information I have given, I think I would be justified in asserting that in our price control measures we have not done badly. Indeed, we have done much better than other countries which appear to have advantages not less than ours; some of them appear to have greater advantages. That is all very well. It may be possible for us to contend, and contend truthfully, that a rise of prices of roughly 70 per cent. was to have been expected when the war began. That rise being less than the rise which occurred in the First World War and less than what occurred in other countries in Europe and throughout the world, it cannot be regarded as indicative of any abnormal circumstances operating here. Nevertheless, it has occurred and it is the cause of difficulty and even of hardship in many homes.

The question which the public want answered, and in which members of the Seanad are undoubtedly interested, is: What are the possibilities of getting that rise in prices reduced, lowering our price level below 70 per cent. as compared with pre-war? I think we can make up our minds that prices will never go back to the pre-war level. There never has been a war in the history of the world following which prices came back to the level prevailing before that war. The general price level after the First World War settled down after some years at a point in or about 75 per cent. above the pre-war level. Because our prices did not rise during the recent war as much as they did in the First World War we can expect that the permanent stabilisation of the price level will be achieved at a somewhat lower point above pre-war than after the First World War. I want to make it quite clear, in order to ensure that there will be no baseless expectations, that there is no reason yet to assume that prices are falling throughout the world. All the evidence is to the contrary. I have no doubt some recession of prices will take place, but the point I want to emphasise is that it has not yet begun.

According to the figures which I found in the Ministry of Labour Gazette, prices are rising in all countries except a few. We are one of the few in which they are not rising. As between the most recent figures published and those previously published, increases were shown in the case of Brazil 2.8 per cent., Canada .6 per cent., Denmark 1.2 per cent., Finland 2.9 per cent., Holland, 3.6 per cent., Italy 3.1 per cent., India 1.1 per cent., Portugal 3.7 per cent. There were no changes over recent months in Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand or in this country; there was a slight decrease in one case only— South Africa.

Last week there was published in the newspapers an index of commodity prices prepared by the United States Bureau of Labour. Statistics and that index showed that in the first week of January, 1944, there was an increase from 107 to 139 for all commodities as compared with the same week in 1936 and from 108 to 156 for food only. As far as Great Britain is concerned, I will quote again from the journal I referred to previously, the British Board of Trade Journal for January 11th, 1947:—

"Wholesale prices in December, as measured by the Board of Trade index number, continued an upward movement with a further rise of 0.5 per cent. as compared with November."

I think we can hope than in the course of time prices will fall, but we must make up our minds that prices are not going to fall in the immediate future and our price level, in so far as it is affected by the level of import prices, will not be lowered.

I have dealt with the rise in prices here and I have endeavoured to show why prices have risen. I have suggested that because our agricultural price level rose by 90 per cent. and our import price level by 120 per cent. we could not regard the rise of 70 per cent. in the general retail price level as unsatisfactory. Could we, however, by any system of controlling imports, reduce the import price? I will discuss agricultural prices later. Let us take the two important factors affecting our price level—import prices and agricultural prices. Is it possible by any system of regulation, any method of buying, to reduce the price we have to pay for imported goods? I do not think so. Wherever it appeared practicable to effect a reduction in the buying price of goods abroad by centralised purchasing here, centralised purchasing was arranged for. We have centralised purchasing organisations for grain, timber, tea, animal feeding stuffs, oils and fats. In no other case was it evident to me that any advantage would be secured by establishing central purchasing organisations.

I want members of the House to understand, particularly when they are addressing themselves to the problem of clothing prices, that the only class of clothing we can buy abroad is dear clothing. We have never been able to produce standardised garments here on the lines of the British utility garments. We had not industrial organisations working down to basic raw materials which would enable us to control the process of manufacture at all stages. We were never able to arrange for the steady, continued importation of raw or semi-processed materials of standard quality. When the buyers of our drapery houses go abroad to buy they cannot buy cheap goods; they are not for sale; either their exportation is prohibited in the countries in which they are manufactured, or the local demand is such that there is no exportable surplus.

We could reduce our clothing price index by restricting the importation of clothing from abroad. I considered that problem on more than one occasion last year. Several firms interested in the importation of boots and shoes from the United States came to the appropriate Government Department seeking allocation of dollars for that purpose, and dollars were allocated to them. In every case the goods imported were substantially dearer than home products of similar quality, and the effect of their introduction in the market was to increase the over-all price level. It was a matter for consideration whether we were better off without these additional high-priced supplies or whether we should continue to encourage their importation. We decided on facilitating the imports. We decided that, even though the goods coming in were, in the main, dear goods, the reduction of the scarcity would have a general beneficial effect on prices.

Another policy could have been followed. I recognise that it is a matter upon which different opinions could exist, but it is one to which I should like members of the Seanad and those who are interested in the problems of price control to address themselves. At the present time, we can buy abroad clothing materials only of the dearer classes. Should we buy those dear clothing materials, recognising that their prices to the consumer will be high, that only limited classes of our people will be able to purchase them; or should we do without the additional supplies in order to keep down the general all-over clothing price level? There are many problems of that kind that will arise. The same problem arises precisely when considering the effect of the increase in the agricultural price level upon our retail prices. Do we or do we not want to reduce the price that the farmers are getting for their various products at the present time?

I suggest that the question is not the price that the farmer is getting, but the margin existing between the farmer's price and the price to the consumer.

I will deal with the question of the margins later. The primary factor determining the level of prices is what the farmer gets.

A head of cabbage is being sold at 8d.

What the farmer is getting is shown by the fact that bacon is 77 per cent. more than before the war; eggs, 120 per cent.; creamery butter, 51 per cent.; farmers' butter, 73 per cent.; milk, 37 per cent.; potatoes, 86 per cent. I have also here the price of flake oatmeal and beet. But, in the case of these commodities, there is considerably more processing done after they leave the farmer and before they reach the consumer. We could in the case of some foodstuffs reduce the price to the consumer by subsidies. Again, I want to postpone my reference to the question of subsidising food prices. In determining what the farmer should get for his produce we have to have consideration to other factors than price. Deliberately, we increased the price of wheat, because we regarded it as essential to the national security to maximise the production of wheat, leaving price considerations out of the picture altogether. Similarly, the price of milk delivered to creameries was increased and that higher price was paid for the purpose of ensuring the continuation of production or an increase of production. In no case could we risk a reduction of the price paid to the farmers for these products without risking a reduction in their supply.

In the case of milk there was a decrease.

In the case of milk we have had a continuous decrease.

There was no increase in wheat and beet.

All that I have said is, in a sense, an explanation as to the rise in prices. I have endeavoured to show that it was not an unreasonable rise compared with what happened in the First World War, or compared with what has happened with other countries in the recent war. I have endeavoured to show that there is a rational explanation for the increase, having regard to the increased prices paid for farm produce and the increased price we had to pay for imported goods. Are there other factors which have necessarily inflated the price level? I have seen it contended in the newspapers, as it was contended here, that high profits were operating. High profits—that is Senator Duffy's point. High taxation—I think that is the main contention of the Irish Independent; tariffs — which are worrying the Irish Times; and inflation, which is worrying everybody. So far as high profits are concerned, let me clear up certain misunderstandings straight away.

In connection with this question of profit margins, manufacturers are frequently referred to. The least significant of all the factors that enter into the retail price of commodities is the manufacturers' profit. We control the profits of manufacturers. I will admit that we proceeded by trial and error in endeavouring to devise an effective method of controlling manufacturers' profits. I do not claim that our present method is perfect. In the first year of the war, we controlled their profits by fixing a maximum percentage profit that could be earned in relation to the capital employed. The defect of that system was that there was no inducement to the manufacturer to maintain maximum output. So long as he was limited to a fixed profit related to the capital employed, he would get the profit on a diminishing output just as well as on an expanding output. We abandoned that system and endeavoured to regulate it on a basis of gross profits related to turn-over. That system had defects. It did encourage maximum production, which was important, even though it did not encourage manufacturers to seek economy and efficiency in production.

With the close of the war, we considered there was another additional inducement to the manufacturers to maximise production—the desire they would have to re-establish themselves with their customers, and that, consequently, the same inducement had not to be given to them to that end after the war as during the war, and we changed over to the present system of net profit based on output. I admit that there are defects in that system, but it does operate to restrict the profit which manufacturers can earn. The contention of the manufacturers' organisations is that it restricts them unduly.

By way of illustration, I want to give what the profit of the manufacturer represents in the selling price. I will take the case of boots and shoes. Many people contend that the cost of boots and shoes is unduly high. The profit earned by the manufacturer in the production of boots and shoes averages from 4d. to 8d. per pair, according to the class of the product. It will be quite obvious that you can reduce his profit by half or increase his profit by 100 per cent. without making any appreciable difference in the retail price. The cost of the imported materials, the cost of fuels, machinery, and replacements, and the cost of wages are the important factors in determining the manufacturers' prices and those factors are far more significant than the net profit which the manufacturer may earn. It is true that the manufacturers' production costs have been unduly inflated by the curtailment of supplies which makes full time working, in many cases, impracticable and, consequently, increases the cost per unit of production.

Early in the war I went to the Dáil and I asked the Dáil to advise me upon this problem. I pointed out that for every industry there was a diminishing pool of supplies, that we could either concentrate the available supplies in a number of producing units, keeping these units working fulltime on a most economic basis, and thus keeping prices down, or we could spread them out proportionately over all producing units, recognising that higher prices would result, but realising also that we were maintaining greater employment and keeping in existence a number of important producing firms.

I told the Dáil that the Government had decided in favour of the latter course, in favour of spreading the available supplies over all the different factories, keeping every factory in production, keeping the maximum amount of employment in every factory. We went so far as to appeal to manufacturers to keep in employment workers for whom they had no particular need rather than to disemploy them as supplies fell off. A number of manufacturers did that. We knew that the result of our appeal and their action would again be to put prices higher than they otherwise would be. So far as there was an expression of opinion given by the Dáil, it was in favour of that policy. We can still reverse it. If Senators or Deputies or the public generally believe that it is more desirable, in present circumstances, to keep prices at a minimum, irrespective of other considerations, we can even yet adopt the policy of concentrating the available supplies to the number of producing units required, reducing the overhead and other charges, lowering prices, but putting a number of people out of employment, and a number of firms out of business. I am not by any means convinced that it is a desirable policy to follow.

It will also help the House to understand why manufacturing costs have increased so substantially if I mention a few individual items, and again I am choosing items which enter into the costs of the clothing industry, articles used by clothing manufacturers in the production of garments. In 1939 the c.i.f. cost here of cotton yarn imported into this country was 11½d. per lb.; in 1946 it was 4/- per lb.—an increase of more than 300 per cent. In 1939 the average price of cotton piece goods imported into this country was 6¼d. per square yard; in 1946 the average price was 2/4 per square yard—an increase of nearly 350 per cent. In 1939 the average price of woollen and worsted yarns imported was 2/9 per lb.; in 1946 the average price was 8/5 per lb.— an increase of more than 200 per cent. Woollen and worsted tissues imported in 1939 averaged in price 1/6½ per square yard; in 1946 they averaged 7/2 per square yard. Art silk woven fabrics which, before the war, were imported at an average price of less than 1/- per square yard, now cost over 4/- per square yard. Art silk yarns which, before the war, were imported at less than 2/- per lb., now cost over 5/- per lb.

These prices and the other matters to which I have referred will explain why the cost of manufacturing clothing here has increased. Despite them, however, I want to say that, so far as I have been able to discover, clothing produced in this country is, quality for quality, not dearer than clothing sold in Great Britain. I do not want that statement to be misunderstood. We have available for sale in our shops, and possibly at various seasons the bulk of the stock in the shops is so represented, imported clothing and that clothing imported from Great Britain and elsewhere is much dearer here than in Great Britain because it is only when the Irish importer can offer an attractive price to the British manufacturer that he gets the purchase of the goods at all. If the British manufacturer can realise a better price by selling his stock in Great Britain then naturally he will do so. But, comparing the price of the clothing manufactured in this country with clothing manufactured in Great Britain and sold in Great Britain, I assert that, quality for quality, our clothing is not dearer.

There is one fundamental difference in the British position and ours: they have got what we have not got—cheap clothing. We have not got the means of producing the cheaper classes of clothing which are on sale in quantity in Great Britain. Before the war we imported into this country 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 square yards of cheap, shoddy cloth which was made up into suits of clothes here, suits which were sold at low prices in establishments which specialised in that trade. No cloth of that character is being imported at all at present. We have not in this country the equipment to make it. We are working at the present time upon an allocation of cotton yarn from Great Britain which is fixed at 15 per cent. of our pre-war imports. We have a much better position in regard to woollen and worsted yarns but mainly in consequence of our own production. Generally speaking, there is available in Great Britain, as I have no doubt there is available in other countries, cheaper clothing than we can produce but I do assert that, in relation to our own manufacture, quality for quality, it is not to be regarded as dear compared with the prices now prevailing elsewhere. In that regard I would like to mention other commodities. Whenever people writing to the newspapers, or newspaper editors commenting in leading articles on the price situation, make comparisons between our prices and prices in Great Britain they always make the comparisons that are most unfavourable to us. Do they ever tell the Irish worker and the Irish public that the package of 20 cigarettes which we can buy here for 1/5 costs 2/4 in Great Britain, that a bicycle tyre, manufactured in Cork, sells here at 5/11, when the British price is 6/8 plus purchase tax, that a bicycle tube, manufactured in Cork, sells at 2/9 whereas a similar tube manufactured in Great Britain sells at 3/2 plus purchase tax? Our tanneries are producing sole leather which is sold at 3/6 per lb. The cost of producing sole leather in Great Britain is 54½d. per lb. It is subsidised by the British Government and sold at the subsidised price of 42d. per lb., which is still 6d. per lb. above the unsubsidised price at which Irish sole leather is produced and sold. In Great Britain the price of upper leather produced in British tanneries is 26d. per lb. Irish tanneries are producing and selling similar upper leather at 23d. per lb. I wonder is it ever brought to the notice of our Irish workers that the bottle of Guinness's stout which they buy for 7d. would cost them 1/1 in Great Britain——

If they could get it.

——that the pint of stout which they buy for 11d. costs 1/6 there, and that the double whiskey—if our workers drink double whiskies——

It is very doubtful.

——costs 2/- here as compared with 3/6 in Great Britain. I could elaborate on that, because the double whiskey, which is the standard British measure, is a smaller draught than the Irish large whiskey.

There are other illustrations of that kind which I could give, but I want to deal now with other matters which have been raised in this debate and which I know are agitating the public. The first of these is distributors' profits. I have no brief for the drapers. I have been endeavouring since the development of scarcity in drapery goods to devise effective methods of controlling the price of drapery goods. The first and obvious device which naturally occurred to me was rationing. By rationing you endeavour to limit the demand to the supply so that there will be no competition for purchase which might force up prices. Senator Duffy will remember that it was not I who led the drapery workers in Dublin in procession through the streets as a protest against the introduction of clothing rationing.

The Minister also will remember that I did not either.

The Senator will not have to look very far afield to find who did. The introduction of rationing was not sufficient to prevent the general abundance of purchasing power operating to inflate drapery prices and so we endeavoured to institute a system of fixed margins. So far as home produced goods are concerned the difficulty was not considerable. The manufacturer was instructed as to the margins to be allowed upon wholesale or retail sale and was required by order to indicate in plain figures affixed to the article what was the retail price. That retail price was sufficient to cover the manufacturer's costs and profits, the wholesaler's margins and the retailer's margin and it did not permit of any manipulation of the margin by wholesale or retail distributors. Quite obviously that could not be done with imported goods. We could not require manufacturers abroad to stamp prices in plain figures on the goods which were imported into this country. It was recognised that there was that weakness in the system of control of prices by fixed margins where the quantity of imported goods was a substantial proportion of the total supply.

We have reduced the margin allowed to distributors of drapery goods on two occasions since control was introduced and, as Mr. Maguire, the president of the employers' federation pointed out in a statement this week, the present margins are substantially below those operating in Great Britain, and the British margins were reduced only a fortnight ago. The margins which retail drapers may charge on the cost price of goods are still below the reduced British margin. Senator Duffy referred to the fact that some drapers are engaged both in the wholesale and the retail trade. That is so, and if he has a solution for that problem I shall be glad to hear it. I have no doubt, however, that occasionally traders have fallen into the temptation to sell goods in excess of the fixed price. That cannot be prevented except by public co-operation and if the public will co-operate fully in that—co-operate to the extent of not buying where they regarded the prices as unreasonable—then the situation would be remedied. I do not think that we can solve this situation by a public inquiry.

I think also that Senators would be on very dangerous ground if they attempted to assess profits earned in the drapery trade generally on the basis of the reports of public companies operating multiple stores. Many of these stores, operated by public companies, trade in many varieties of goods other than drapery goods, including goods that are not price controlled. I think you would get a false picture of the drapery trade as a whole by studying the accounts of such companies. It was on the basis of the ascertained profits of representative firms that the margins were fixed and it was on the result of the working of these margins after a time that the margins were reduced.

We are told also that the price level is high because we have high taxation. I do not want to deal at any length with that question because it is not my function but I want to assert that our taxation is lower, relatively, than it has been for a long time and is relatively lower than in most other countries in the world. In the year 1938-39, our tax revenue was £31,884,000. In that year our estimated national income was £154,000,000 and the tax revenue was 20.4 per cent. of the estimated national income. In the year 1945-46, our total tax revenue was £51,812,000 and the estimated national income was £260,000,000. The tax revenue, therefore, was 19.9 per cent. of the estimated national income. For the present year it is estimated that the tax revenue will be approximately 15 per cent. of the national income. That is a substantially lower proportion of the national income than the tax revenue was in pre-war years. It is to be compared with 34 per cent. which represents the tax revenue of the British Government in relation to the British national income. I want to deal now with the specific point of protective tariffs which has been raised by Senator Duffy.

Could the Minister not now deal with the profit element in the prices as disclosed by what we know of the volume of excess profits?

I should like to say a word about this problem of excess profits. The excess corporation profits tax was so called because it was a tax upon profits earned in excess of standard profits determined in accordance with the Act. That term "excess profits" has misled many people. A firm could have paid excess profits tax which was not in fact making excess profits. I shall mention two firms, the identity of which I have in mind. They are both engaged in the same trade. They are both engaged in that trade on a scale and in circumstances which in the opinion of the officers of my Department would make a gross profit of £20,000 per year a reasonable profit. In one case the standard profit was £40,000 and in the other case it was £10,000. The effect of that was that the first firm could have earned more than double what we regarded as a reasonable profit and still not be liable to excess profits tax while the other firm could have less than half of what we regarded as a reasonable profit and still be liable to excess profits tax. It is quite obvious, therefore, that the measure of excess profits is not to be found in the revenue of the excess profits tax. That was a tax imposed upon profits actually earned by firms in excess of standard profits, whether the increased profit was reasonable or not. In the case of firms which had no standard profit it represented a tax on a profit of more than 9 per cent.— originally it was 6 per cent. There were of course many firms which paid excess profits tax in relation to the excess profits they had earned but they were very few—cases where the tax was a fair tax having regard to what the Department of Industry and Commerce would regard as excess profits. That was one reason why the Government was anxious to abolish it as quickly as possible. It was an unfair tax because it did not rest levelly and fairly on the firms to which it applied.

It was a faulty standard.

It was a faulty standard but it was the only practical standard. Let me deal now with the question of customs tariffs. Senator Duffy spoke of the revenue from customs duties as if it represented a revenue from protective duties. Senator Duffy is not to be blamed for that because he was inspired by the Independent which did the same thing. The revenue from customs duties in the last financial year was £12,900,000. If we take from that net customs revenue—revenue derived from taxes imposed for the sole purpose of raising revenue, taxes which had no protective effect at all—we shall find the balance is very insignificant. Of the £12,900,000, no less than £10,100,000 came from the tax on tobacco. The revenue from the tax on perfumes, wines and spirits, petroleum products, cinema films, motor car parts totalled over £2,000,000. So when you add the £10,000,000 odd derived from tobacco to the £2,000,000 odd derived from other revenue duties, it will be noted that the balance left in the customs revenue which might be attributed to protective duties is very insignificant.

In fact, most of the tariffs are suspended. Senator Duffy told us about a man who paid 40 per cent. duty on art silk fabric. The Senator must have a very good memory, as the duty on art silk fabric was suspended many years ago. Even in the case of customs duties which, for one reason or another, were kept nominally in operation, the practice has been to give licences for free importation on application in most cases. So far as quotas are concerned, a number of these have been suspended also, but others were retained and retained deliberately because they operated to confine imports to recognised channels of trade, and in the cases of many classes of goods, particularly those subject to rationing schemes, that was a necessary provision. In the case of those goods, it was desirable to exclude the class of person who might occasionally import supplies but who was not regularly engaged in the trade, and the effect of the quota Orders was to confine imports to the regular traders, which we regarded as a necessary and desirable arrangement.

Let me make it quite clear that the recent suspension of the customs duty on clothing does not and will not affect the supply position very much. I do not believe any trader here was deterred from seeking supplies abroad by the existence of the duty and I do not believe that the removal of the duty will have a very serious effect on prices, because to a large extent the volume of goods which can be purchased abroad is determined by what traders here are prepared to pay for them, and the removal of the duty may merely create a situation in which they are able to pay more. Recently we suspended the duty on jams. That duty was in existence, but, of course, no jam was being imported. Traders came to the Department and said they could get jams on the Continent if we would suspend the duty. We suspended the duty, but said to those traders: "There is one condition you must observe—the jams which you import must be sold at the fixed price now prevailing for jams here". That finished it, as nobody could import jams from Continental countries and sell them as cheaply as our own jams are sold.

With regard to the apprehensions which have been expressed by Senator Duffy and others that the increases in wages now taking place may cause higher prices sufficient to offset the wage increases, I can only say that there is no foundation either in practice or in theory for such fears, so long as the wage increases are related to the rise in the cost of living and take due regard of the reductions in consumption standards which have been necessarily enforced upon us since the beginning of the war. I have stated here already that our general price level has remained stable since 1943. That stability of prices should be noted, having regard to the fact that in the same period, between September, 1943, and September, 1946, when the Standstill Order was repealed, the index figure of industrial earnings increased from 117.6 to 140.3, an increase of 19 per cent. Between November, 1945, and November, 1946, the cost-of-living index decreased by 2 per cent., although industrial earnings as shown by that index increased during the same period by 7 per cent.

I think it is a paradoxical situation that the people who appear to be doing most to spread the idea that increased wages will produce a proportionate increase in prices are those who profess to be the friends of the workers. There is no reason why prices should increase proportionately. There is no reason, in theory or in practice, why there should be that result. I have shown that the increase in earnings since 1943 has not affected our price level, that the general price level here did, in fact, show a slight decrease in the past year, although there was in that period an all-over average increase in industrial earnings of 7 per cent.

Will not the 15 per cent. increase in rents in Dublin have an effect on prices?

I am afraid I cannot discuss that with the Senator, as I do not know anything at all about the proposal to which he refers.

It refers to the new houses, as far as I understand it.

I think that some increase in prices may eventuate from the wage increases now being effected, but the higher cost can be offset by higher output and by other factors, and in no circumstances whatever will the all-over increase in prices be proportionate to the increase in wages or such as to offset the benefit which the workers concerned will enjoy.

We have, of course, an inflationary situation. An inflationary situation is one in which the purchasing power which is available for use, and which is likely to be used, is in excess of the aggregate of retail prices of all the goods and services available for sale. Let me make it quite clear that the causes of an inflationary situation are well known to economists. So far as I have been able to discover, from the reading of economic text-books, the principal causes are these: deficit budgeting by the State, the imposition of insufficient taxation to raise the revenue required and the meeting of the deficiency by borrowing from the banks, increased wages and other incomes, increased inflow of money from emigrants' remittances or investments abroad, higher prices for agricultural exports, anything which tends to increase the supply of money in the country without increasing the supply of goods. No doubt, increased wages and increased emigrants' remittances have a more immediate effect than other increases, such as higher prices for agricultural exports, because those who get them tend to spend them at once and not to save them; but none of these factors, in my humble opinion, is of any great significance compared with the immense volume of purchasing power dammed up in the ordinary current and deposit accounts in the banks. There is £217,000,000 on current and deposit accounts in the Irish banks, and a dangerous inflationary situation will develop only when those who own those deposits want to withdraw them for the purpose of buying goods, having lost confidence in the value of money. There was a spending spree by a number of people in the weeks before Christmas, but I do not think there are any signs yet to suggest that we have here a situation tending towards uncontrollable inflation such as other countries have experienced and about which we should be unduly perturbed.

Let it be quite clear that if an inflationary situation developed which might force up prices and have the undesirable consequences which Senator Duffy describes, the methods of dealing with it, the standard methods laid down by experts in economic science, are, firstly, by increasing taxation and not by reducing it, not by subsidising prices but by reducing subsidies, by budgeting for a surplus instead of for a deficit, by controlling wages, by restricting exports, by imposing such Government control upon trade that price increases are prevented and ultimately, as some countries in Europe had to resort to, by freezing bank balances. I do not think we are anywhere near a situation in which this country will have to face those measures.

We have been urged to lower the cost of living by subsidising prices. Let me make it clear that subsidising prices is one method of promoting inflation. It is, in fact, according to the text-book theorists, the recognised method of establishing an inflationary trend. There are certain objections to subsidising prices in our circumstances. You cannot subsidise prices for one class of the community only. When you subsidise the price of bread, butter, tea and sugar, everybody benefits by it, even those who do not need and should not get support from the public exchequer. Secondly, the subsidising of prices has little or no effect upon the general price level unless all goods are rationed. If you have prices inflated by the presence of a volume of purchasing power in excess of the aggregate retail prices of the goods to be purchased, then subsidising the price of some commodities merely means that the impact of that purchasing power is transferred to other commodities and forces these prices up, leaving the general price level unchanged. The British Government was able to resort to price subsidising because they had a general rationing system and also because they had not the practical difficulties we should encounter, arising out of the fact that we produce at home, on a multitude of small farms, the bulk of our supplies of most foods, whereas the British Government import them and established a Government importing organisation through which all supplies were canalised. In so far as beef, meat, fish, eggs, vegetables or other similar farm products are concerned, there is no method of subsidising which does not involve the establishment of a most elaborate Government control over trading in these commodities. Senator Duffy says that we did not control the price of those goods because we believed in private enterprise. If he is familiar with the history of Russia, he will know that all the terroristic powers of a totalitarian State had to be brought into full use before the Russian farmers would agree to sell their farm produce to the socialised marketing organisations.

Even then, they preferred to be liquidated.

The British succeeded very well during the war.

I have explained that the British situation is different from ours in two important respects. The bulk of their supplies of essential foods is imported by Government importing organisations and they resorted to a comprehensive rationing system, which we have tried to avoid.

They produce three times as much food as we produce.

That is not the point; it is the proportion those supplies bear to the total consumption. I do not ask the Senator to decide this question on the basis of what other people have done. His commonsense will tell him that you cannot control the price of meat or beef unless you control the price of cattle. You cannot control cattle prices unless you control cattle exports. You cannot fix a reduced price for beef on sale in the shops without controlling the whole of the cattle trade. You cannot compel farmers to sell cabbages, cauliflowers or other vegetables to one trading organisation, which is the only method by which you can subsidise the price of those goods. I ask the House and those who are thinking of price subsidies as a solution of our problems to remember that there are between 200,000 and 300,000 agricultural producers in this community of 700,000 families. To endeavour to impose a system of control that would be effective in relation to each one of them would be a hopeless task. There are other problems. The House will remember what happened in the U.S.A. when they tried to control beef prices. The farmers did not sell their beasts and there was no beef in the American cities. Ultimately, the American Government was beaten in their attempt and had to withdraw control of beef prices. We must endeavour to frame our policy in the light of the experience of other countries. We should learn from their experience as well as our own.

We could not subsidise milk prices except in Dublin and Cork. In no other part of the country would the system under which milk is sold permit of the application of subsidy. There are some commodities which it is possible to subsidise—flour, bread, butter, tea and sugar. All these commodities are subsidised. It will be argued, however, that we could reduce the general price level by increasing the subsidies on those goods. There are difficulties there also. In the case of tea, the subsidy could be increased. The effect, however, on the average householder's expenditure would be so slight as to be of no importance. We did increase the subsidy on tea last year and reduced the price from 4/- to 3/8. Personally, I felt that, if we increased the subsidy further than that, we should be accused of juggling with the cost-of-living index number, because tea is weighted heavily in the compilation of the cost-of-living index and a small reduction in the price means a fall of several points in the cost-of-living index. In the case of flour, we have always had to face the danger that, if we unduly increased the subsidy, we should create an inducement to farmers to use flour as an animal feeding stuff. The price at which flour could be sold under subsidy had to be related to the price of feeding stuffs. That problem is not so acute now, with flour and bread rationing, as it was, but, inasmuch as we hope to get rid of the rationing of flour and bread as quickly as possible, it is an argument which makes us hesitate to increase the subsidy on flour and bread.

As regards butter, the problem of farmers' butter arises. Only creamery butter comes under our control and is subsidised. If you reduce the price of creamery butter by subsidy, it will force down the price of farmers' butter, which is getting no subsidy. There is a limit to the extent to which you can subsidise prices. In the case of sugar, we dropped the excise duty and reduced the price by 1d. per lb. That is offset by the higher charges the company had to incur this year. Let me make clear that, in the main, these higher charges arise from the fact that the beet passing through the sugar machinery will this year yield only 50 per cent. of the sugar secured last year, although their operating costs will be the same.

Only 50 per cent.?

That is a rough figure. It will be substantially less than last year. The operating costs per unit are substantially higher. To some extent, at any rate, the increased cost which offsets the decreased price will not appear in subsequent years. The existing subsidies on flour, butter and fuel are substantial. Annually, the State is paying £3,150,000 to reduce the price of flour and bread, £825,000 to reduce the price of butter, and £1,433,000 to reduce the price of fuel. Let it be quite clear that, when I say the State is paying, I mean that the taxpayers are paying these sums. In the long run, no policy of subsidising reduces the price to the community, as a whole. There is one other matter to which I should like to refer.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is now 10 o'clock and, perhaps, we could get some intimation as to how long the debate will continue.

Five minutes will suffice for me.

There is no question of curtailing the Minister.

The Minister can continue as long as he likes.

I suggest that we sit not later than 12 o'clock. We ought to be able to finish by that time.

If the Minister requires only five minutes, we should be able to finish earlier.

Agreed to sit later than 10 o'clock and not later than 12 o'clock.

At the beginning of the war we deliberately decided to confine our price controlling activities to essential or necessary goods and not to control the price of goods that might be classed as luxuries or unnecessary I have no sympathy with people who complain about the price of nylon stockings or rare fruits and vegetables out of season. I am certainly not going to employ officers of my Department in checking up the prices of such goods or in protecting purchasers against themselves. Senator Duffy seemed to think that we ought even to protect a man entering into a contract for the construction of premises. If such a person thinks he is not getting a fair deal from the intended contractor, let him not enter into the contract. I do not think that there is any obligation on the Government to go in and save him from himself.

I did not make the suggestion. I drew attention to the fact that because wages have become 3/- an hour, the contractor is now charging the person for whom he works 6/-.

Let him go and find another contractor.

The State is poking its nose into enough business already.

That is the point I want to make. We have available in the Department a limited enforcement staff and I think it is necessary that the work of that staff should be concentrated upon essential goods and that the staff should not be asked to supervise the prices charged for luxury goods which people can always do without. If the price of these unnecessary or luxury goods goes to a point at which people think they are unduly high, they need not buy them. By concentrating our activities upon essential goods we secure the best and most efficient use of the available staff.

Even the best staff in the world, however, cannot make a system of price control effective without the co-operation of the public. If the public will refuse to pay prices in excess of those fixed, if they will report attempts to charge prices in excess of those fixed, if they will help the Department by giving evidence in court when prosecutions are taken for charging excessive prices, we can make our system of enforcement almost watertight. Without public co-operation we cannot do it. That is why, although I am glad Senator Duffy put down the motion, I think it is a bad motion. I think it helps to create a fallacy in the public mind that they need do nothing for themselves, that the whole responsibility for dealing with the prices situation is on the Government. That is an idea we must kill and not support, and I therefore urge the House to defeat this motion because of the wrong impression it creates in the minds of the public as to what their duty is.

The Government has its functions. I am not denying in any way the measure of the responsibility for the prices situation which the Government must carry, but the public have their responsibility also, and it is wrong to give the impression that the Government alone is concerned in this matter and that the Government can deal with it completely without public help. Therefore, I would hope that the motion would be defeated, and I hope that members of the Seanad, in addressing themselves to the problems raised by the motion, will endeavour to give all the help they can in solving the practical problems to which I have referred. It may be that in deciding upon the limitations of a subsidisation policy we have omitted considerations that will occur to others. The Government is quite willing to consider an extension of the policy of subsidisation, if it can be proved to be practicable and can be shown to have no adverse reactions in other directions. It is quite prepared to extend its system of control and make it more effective if people can suggest ways and means for doing so. We do not regard ourselves as having a monopoly of wisdom in this matter. In fact, our trouble in the past has been to get considered, reasonable discussion of these problems in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Up to the present, there was inadequate public interest in these problems of price control and if this discussion helps to arouse interest in them, it will have done a really useful service, whatever the fate of the motion.

In view of the concluding statement of the Minister, may I ask whether the House will be entitled to divide to-night on this motion after 12 o'clock?

That is a matter for the House to decide.

Mr. Hawkins

I take it that it is now agreed that we continue not later than 12 o'clock and at that time decide the fate of the motion?

I am asking the Cathaoirleach whether he is giving a ruling that the House is entitled to divide on this motion to-night.

That is for the House to decide. It is not for me to decide whether the House will divide.

I am asking for a ruling as to whether the House is entitled to decide to divide.

Surely it cannot divide after 10 o'clock?

The House is entitled to divide at any time it wishes, but it must be the House which decides.

In view of the exhaustive, realistic and most illuminating statement by the Tánaiste, I do not now propose to deal with many of the points he has dealt with far more ably than I could deal with them, but I think that, in Senator Duffy's speech, we had evidence of many illusions and many fallacies. The Minister has dealt with the illusions and I shall try to deal in a few minutes with some of the outstanding fallacies. Senator Duffy fell into the error common to people who do not understand business and business costings when he said that he had heard of cases in which a wage of 3/- per hour was paid to a man and the charge made to the public was 6/-, inferring, of course, that the difference between 3/- and 6/- was profit. Did Senator Duffy never hear of all the incidental charges that go to make up the overhead of a business? If the firm which made the 6/- charge had, instead of setting down 6/-, set down 3/- for wages, 6d. for this, 6d. for that and 6d. for the other item, and, of course, the inevitable amount for rent, I suppose there would be no criticism of the charge, but I do think that when Senator Duffy introduces a motion of this kind, with the widespread publicity which the debate on it must inevitably get, he should take care that he does not make statements which, on the face of them, are fallacies and so easily disproved.

All this question is one of vital concern to the whole community and not any section of it. I do not intend to say anything that will make the solution of this problem any more difficult than it is, but I am wondering whether Labour, if Senator Duffy is representative of it, is making as big a contribution to its solution that we might expect, or indeed as big a contribution as the Government has already made. We see now a stampede in wages— there is no other word for it. Senator Duffy said that, if we cannot control prices, we cannot control wages. I will paraphrase that statement and say deliberately that if we do not control wages, we will not control prices. We already have evidence of it. Senator Duffy himself gave evidence of it when he quoted from various trades, with none of which I am connected, in which quotations are increased by 15, 20 and 25 per cent. because of recent wage increases. We have the well-known public fact that the cost of sugar, one of the most vital needs of the community, has had to be increased. And why? Is the reason for that increase not well known to us all?

I am only saying these things because we must look at all the facets of a very troublesome case, and the person who urges that there must be a complete investigation into prices and profits and all the rest of it should be very eager to make sure that the statements he makes can be verified in fact. I am challenging some of those made by Senator Duffy. I will go also with the Minister into this question of profit. What is profit? It is not the difference between what it costs you to make an article and the price at which you sell it. Profit is net profit and not gross profit. It would take too long to go into all the intricacies which make up profit margins. I see Senator Sir John Keane smiling, but I stand over that statement, which is borne out by the very pungent remarks of the Tánaiste in giving the example of two companies, both in the same business, one of which was making one-fourth of the profit of the other, the other readily coming within the excess profits net. These are things that should be explained, and if the debate did no more than to explode some of the fallacious theories put forward, it will have done good.

I want to bring before the House a few things which concern the man in the street, the ordinary man about whom Senator Sir John Keane and others are so frequently concerned. I am concerned about him, too, although that may make some people laugh. The thrifty man who owns a house has to maintain it, and, in order to maintain it, has to avail of the services, not of the manufacturer who is criticised and not of the distributor who is criticised, but of the man who gives service in maintaining the house. These services are going to cost that owner from 20 to 50 and 60 per cent. more than they did a year ago because of the recent increase in wages granted to the tradesman who will do that work for him.

These are incontrovertible facts and not theories. Ask for a quotation to-day for the painting of a house and see how much it will cost as compared with a year ago. If we are discussing the cost of living these are pertinent matters. Reference has been made to the cost of houses. What is the position of a person with a limited income who is trying to buy a house to-day, despite what the Minister said that if you do not like the price quoted by one contractor you can go to another? What is the position to-day of a newly married couple, trying to get a roof over their heads, compared with what it was a year ago? A house will cost them from two to three times more than it would have cost a year ago. That is a result of the recent wage increases. I do not want to attack these wage increases, but I am trying to show some of their results.

I can quote instances of wages increases that took place within my own lifetime in the case of skilled craftsmen. They were getting 8½d. an hour after the Boer War and 1/6 and 1/9 an hour prior to the last war. Now we find a demand for a universal level of 3/- per hour. Does any sane person imagine that that wage structure can be imposed on industry, and on services included, without reflecting itself in an increased cost of living? It must inevitably do so. I am simply stating facts and I am not doing so in an aggressive way. If these things are forced on industry in order to give service to the community, then the community will ultimately have to pay and the cost of living to the community will be increased by whatever the increased margin may be.

The Minister has urged that this problem is one that presses on every section of the community, whether manufacturer, distributor, farmer or anybody else. He said that the big thing needed for dealing with it was a healthy public opinion. But what do we find to-day? We find that this public, which is clamouring for protection for itself, is willing to give premiums, over and above controlled prices, in order to get certain classes of goods. You find people who are willing to do that if they can get goods which they otherwise would not get. These, I say, are facts and not theory.

I could give many examples where, in the case of highly priced goods, people are actually prepared to pay a still higher price—a premium—in order to get them. It is a surprising thing that in the case of many articles to-day they are commanding a higher price in a used condition than in an unused condition. That is evidence of the fact that public morality in this country is at a deplorably low ebb. If it were not, then, in my opinion, excessive prices, exorbitant prices and favouritism in the matter of supplies would be killed speedily. If the public co-operated with the Government in its efforts to give everybody a square deal, that kind of thing would soon end.

I am not suggesting that there is anything in the motion which conveys censure on the Government. During the emergency I acted on some wage tribunals, and I have been wondering since whether we would not have been better off if the stand-still Order had been maintained, with a higher ceiling fixed so as to permit of progressive wage increases that could be gradually absorbed. The present demands are jumping the wages of craftsmen up from £5 a week to over £7 a week. That extra £2 a week which is imposed on the employer must go—there is nowhere else for it to go—into the price of the article that he sells or handles. We should have some realism in all this. The Minister brought realism into it. He dealt with the various aspects of this question in a very exhaustive way. I think I can claim that anything that I have said has been uttered as a result of my experience and has not been got from textbooks. What I have said was certainly not founded on theories, but on fact. The facts that I have mentioned affect everybody in the community, no matter what a person's station in life may be.

I am not going to deal at any great length with the various matters raised by this motion. I think it was a good thing that Senator Duffy put down the motion. At the same time, I feel in the position that it asks me to do something which I regard as impracticable. While saying that, nobody can deny that the cost of living is a burning question to day. From my own point of view I think that there is something psychological about it at the moment, something which was not a factor in the situation during the war.

If we cast our minds back a bit all of us must realise that while the war was on the main concern with people who had money was to procure whatever commodities were available. It did not matter what the price was they were grateful to be able to get them. Naturally, people expected that the position would be somewhat different when the war ended. They are disappointed at the position which confronts them to-day. Nothing is cheaper than it was during the war and nothing is more plentiful. That, of course, is a great disappointment to those people who thought that the position would be different when the war ended, but some of us who could see some distance ahead—I was one of them—recognised that that was not going to be the position. Therefore, for a very long time the problems that confront us to-day are going to be a matter for concern to all of us.

I admit that is not the responsibility of the Minister or the Government alone because if there is going to be an inflationary position created, we are all going to suffer, and most of all the people on the lower income levels. I would like to reinforce, to a certain extent, some of the things stated by Senator Summerfield. It is important, I think, to recognise that since the war ended the price of many commodities has increased. As the Minister pointed out, there is to-day a greater volume of purchasing power but a smaller quantity of physical goods and services available to the community. Quite clearly that position is going to continue while we have this situation in the world economy, that the demands of the community in regard to supplies are far greater than the community is apparently able to meet. We have made our own contribution to the position with which we have been confronted with regard to supplies in certain respects. What I mean is that food, fuel and light are represented by a certain figure in the cost-of-living index. Apparently, we cannot expect, in the case of food and fuel, that they are going to become cheaper. In my view, food is going to be dearer. That may give cold comfort to Senator Duffy and others. Food is certainly not going to be cheaper this year than it was last year, and the same applies to certain other commodities. In my opinion, it is going to be dearer. I do not see how the Government are going to keep meat prices pegged down to the level at which they are at present. I think we must all recognise that meat is going to be in much shorter supply and is going to be dearer.

We have a similar situation in regard to milk. Milk production has fallen all over the country. I do not know what the Minister thinks about it, but the position is that the milk supply available to the people in the towns of the country is not at all what it was. Some months ago I drew the attention of an official in the Department of Agriculture to the fact that, in my opinion, considerable difficulty was going to be experienced in the case of residents in towns all over the country in procuring anything like adequate supplies of milk. I think that if inquiries are made, it will be found that the quantity of milk available to people in towns throughout the country has been reduced by 20 or 30 per cent. or perhaps 40 per cent. compared to what it was last year. There is in that situation not only a price problem but also a problem of man-power in the matter of production.

This is where I want to join issue with the Minister. All through the war I took the view—and I enunciated it here and elsewhere—that we were making a fatal mistake by permitting young men and women, particularly young men, to go out of this country, because we could well employ them in those parts of the country where food and fuel were produced.

Senator Summerfield addressed himself to the situation in the building trade. I think we may all face this fact, that man-power in the world of the future will become an absorbing and very complex problem for people who have work to be done. Quite clearly it is a problem that is concerning Britain to a very great extent to-day and it will be the main concern of Britain in the future. She was able to draw on our supplies during the war and it seems to me she will be prepared to draw on them in the future if we permit it. The fact that we permitted our young men to leave the country—I am not saying this just to have a "go" at the Minister—has left us shorthanded. We were left with fewer men and women on the land and in the bogs and the volume of our agricultural production and the quantity of fuel we produced was much less than it would have been if we had all our human resources available, if we kept them here and employed them.

Senator Duffy made a very good point, to which the Minister addressed himself briefly. He referred to the influence of the money coming into this country either in the form of emigrants' remittances or in the form of people coming here to purchase houses or lands. That is having a considerable inflationary effect. If I have an amount of money in my pocket sufficient to meet my demands, I can live nicely and comfortably, but if I have some to spare I can throw it around and create an attitude of mind not alone with regard to myself but with regard to my associates that will be rather infectious. The influence of the extra money which I will pass into a purchasing pool, even where the quantity of goods may be small, will have a big effect on price levels. The emigrants' remittances coming into this country come into areas where commodities are in short supply and that has a considerable effect on price levels. It is creating a certain mental attitude among people who are not able to get hold of so much money. It is very discouraging to them.

The fact that we are allowing our young people to go abroad and the fact that we have these remittances coming into the country is in my opinion very bad for the country. I think Government policy in that connection is definitely defective and very bad for the nation. Unless we take control of that situation a major problem will confront us. It will affect in the future the production of everything here, whether it is in the form of agricultural commodities, fuel, light or the construction of houses. Unless the Government tackle that situation it will be a long while before we will have goods available here in such abundance as to affect price levels in the way we would like.

I will make this comment for the benefit of Senator Duffy and those associated with him in the City of Dublin and in other big communities. As an agricultural producer, I have always felt, when I see the prices at which the farmers' produce is finally marketed, that the margin in between is altogether too great. But I do not blame the traders. I blame the consumers in the towns and cities. I do not think in any part of the world there is a body of consumers who have made less effort to do something for themselves than the consumers in Dublin. We have big trade unions—there is nobody representing them in the House at the moment—and they have thousands and thousands of pounds. Instead of complaining against the people who market the farmer's produce, why can they not get together and, as the consumers in England, Scotland and America have done, establish consumers' co-operative societies that will purchase potatoes, cabbages, tomatoes and everything else they can purchase from farmers' co-operative societies and thus cut out all the people in between who are making profits out of all proportion to the services they give?

That is one effective method to control prices and protect consumers. Until the people in Dublin, the trade union leaders and the responsible people in other groups of society, recognise that fact and apply the doctrine of self-help, the cost of living in the city will be higher than in any other part of Europe. The conditions that exist to-day are mainly due to the apathy of the consumers in the City of Dublin and in other large centres of population.

We will not make goods as plentiful or as cheap as we would like to make them unless all of us set ourselves the task of giving an increased output no matter where we are toiling. That is something which the trade union leaders and organisers should give grave consideration to. I agree with Senator Summerfield that you cannot have it both ways; you cannot make demands for increased wages which, according to Senator Duffy, will only help to create an inflationary spiral, and at the same time ask for shorter working hours and then expect goods to be cheaper. It cannot be done. Whether we work on the farm or in the factory, if we want to make a good contribution to the well-being of the country as patriotic citizens we should make up our minds to put in as many hours' work as we reasonably can and give a greater output. If we endeavour to do that, we will be able to get a decent wage and, when the product of our labour is translated into cash, it can be purchased by somebody who would not have to pay too much for it. That is a consideration I pass on for the benefit of Senator Duffy and those who think with him.

Those who wish to see our agriculture making progress must realise that there is nothing more important than to get a greater output per man on the farm. Admittedly, we are working under difficulties and under many shortcomings, but we hope to be able to overcome these in the near future. There are people who would like to say that the farmers do not do their duty by the people who work for them. There is frequent criticism of farm prices and profits. I think all that is unjustified. I am sure Senator Duffy did not suggest that. I had not the advantage of hearing all his speech. I think we can say this on behalf of the farmers of this country, that there is no group of agricultural producers in the world who did less black-marketing during the war than did the farmers of Ireland. Whether in America or Canada or anywhere on the Continent during the war or since the war, everywhere you found a very considerable black market. In America, during the worst days of the war, there was a very considerable black market. We had practically none of that in this country. I think it is not only a matter for congratulation for the farmers, but for the community as a whole. On the whole, while we might find fault with ourselves, I think there was more respect for ordered marketing and fair distribution of the goods available to us here than there was anywhere else, with the exception of Great Britain, where controls were much more rigid and far-reaching than ours were.

Finally, I come down to this point, and it is important to note it: that while food is talked of as something that is very dear for the consumers to buy, relatively food prices have not risen in proportion to other prices, especially the price of clothing. While food prices are 110 points, or 70 per cent. over the figure in 1939, when they were relatively low and were beginning to go up a little after the economic war, clothing prices are 201 points, or 89 per cent. Fuel and light are up by 115 points and sundries by 129 points. On the whole, food prices are high; we all know they are high; but, in relation to the other figures that go to make up the total cost-of-living figure, food prices have not risen so steeply. I repeat what I said at the beginning, that while Senator Duffy has, in my opinion, made a contribution to the examination of the problem that is concerning everybody at present and about which they will have to be concerned in the future, his motion as it stands now is not one to which I can subscribe by my vote, because I do not think, certainly as regards the last part of it, that it is practicable.

Mr. Hawkins

After the very able reply given by the Minister, it is hardly necessary for one to speak against this motion. There are, however, just one or two points I should like to make. I notice that for some time past a campaign has been carried on in many of our daily papers in regard to this question of price control. I have a suspicion that this campaign is principally directed against the industrialists and the industrial policy of this country. It is assumed in all these articles that the present prices are due to import duties or tariffs, and, as is contained in the latter part of this motion, the profit margins permitted under the existing Government policy. We must assume from what we read in these articles and from the many letters which appeared in relation to them, that Senator Duffy has fallen to be the advocate of the policy pursued by these papers, not only now, but over a period of years.

I think the last occasion on which we had a matter of this kind under discussion was on the introduction of what was afterwards referred to as the Standstill Order. At that time, Senator Duffy did not happen to be a member of the Seanad. When we were discussing the motion with reference to that Order, I made an appeal somewhat on the lines which the Minister made to-night, and more definitely to those people who would be best able to bring about the position which this motion seeks to bring about, namely, proper price control. I then suggested that, if the labour and trade union organisations gave their full assistance and co-operation in the carrying out of the different regulations that were made from time to time by the Minister and the Government with regard to rationing and price control, price control would be a success. What was the result? During the debate in the Dáil, the present Leader of the Labour Party complained that he was aware of overcharging in his constituency and that the measures taken by the Minister were not sufficient to combat this overcharging. The Minister appealed to the Leader of the Labour Party to give him particulars or to inform his Department of any violations of the Orders that were made. What was the reply of the Leader of the Labour Party? "I do not propose to be an informer." That was the co-operation that the Government got from the Labour Party and its Leader in enforcing price control.

There was another aspect. On several occasions traders and others were brought before our local courts. After having some experience of the failure of our local justices to deal with these people as they should, the Government were compelled to abandon cases of that kind before our local courts and to avail of a special court set up.

Is this a serious reflection on the judiciary on a motion dealing with price control?

Mr. Hawkins

It is a fact.

I suggest that it is not in accordance with the traditions of this House for a Senator to criticise the judiciary.

Senator Hawkins may continue.

Mr. Hawkins

Senator Duffy, on every occasion on which he proposes to address this House, particularly when he has put down a motion or an amendment, seeks by interruption of members of this Party and of Ministers——

A new crime is being invented.

Mr. Hawkins

As the hour is late, perhaps we should not waste more time in dealing with Senator Duffy. I think that the best work we could do for the nation is to reject this motion and that all Parties in this House should join with the Minister in his appeal to the people of the country to do themselves what the motion demands that the Government should do, because if the people are not prepared to do it, the Government cannot and will not be able to do it.

There are a few things I should like to put on record. Personally, I am not prepared to support the motion in its existing terms, but we are all concerned with it and it is a matter which, as Senator Hayes said, should be dealt with, not on the lines of ordinary Party politics, but rather on general co-operative lines. There was a very refreshing change after tea from what had happened before tea. The Minister made a most able and comprehensive review of the whole situation, an able and comprehensive review of something that was a matter of the administration of his Department—again a notable change from the manner in which other Ministers have refused to suggest that the Seanad could ever possibly criticise or discuss matters of administration of their Department. But let us pass from that.

The Minister's comprehensive review, shorn of the documentary evidence which he produced, I must admit, in great detail, and shorn of its eloquence, simply said prices have not risen as much as they might have done; the Government has done the most perfect job; we cannot think of anything else that the Government should do and, therefore, there is no hope so far as any decrease in future or so far as any check in future is concerned. That is what was said when it is shorn of the Minister's eloquence.

I do not accept that point of view in its entirety. I agree with the Minister that prices have not risen as much as they might have risen but I think the Minister, in taking the figures from 1943 to November of last year, ignored the fact that it is since November last that the main feeling has arisen that prices have increased. We may or we may not see that in the index figure for the current year, because I agree entirely with the Minister that the index figures are not a real method of ascertaining exactly what is the price rise. Take, for example, the question of clothing, to which reference was made. I am absolutely certain that if we compared present-day clothing, bought new now, with clothing that was bought in 1922, the clothing bought now, due to war circumstances, is not as good in quality as was available in 1922 and therefore has to be renewed at far more frequent intervals and, therefore, the increase that is shown is not the real increase that there has been because there has been an additional increase due to more frequent renewals.

I want to advert to a few methods that might be adopted to assist in checking any increase at present. First of all, I accept, of course, what the Minister has stated, that there is now free importation so far as duty is concerned of goods that are available elsewhere. I think, however, that it is not generally appreciated, if it is the fact —I am not quite clear whether the Minister stated it was an absolute fact or not—that anything that can be got outside can now be imported free of quota or licence restriction, and when I say licence restriction I do not mean merely the filling up of a form. It is not generally appreciated that it is a fact that if the proper application is made permits will be given for the complete importation of goods that are available elsewhere.

That should be done without any question. Secondly, we have all to make up our minds that we are not going to get any brake on increasing prices by doing less work. We have to increase production, and production can be increased, first by more work and, secondly, by better methods and, particularly in regard to foodstuffs, by better agricultural methods, we could increase production very considerably. That increased production could cause the price of foodstuffs to drop considerably while at the same time giving the same net return to the farmer as he is getting at the present time. Money could be spent very profitably indeed in connection with the cost of foodstuffs by increasing agricultural production, by increasing agricultural machinery, by increased use in every shape and form of additional new methods which the farmer, because of shortage of long-term capital, may not at present be able to go in for.

We could deal also with one question that was mentioned in the paper this morning or last night—the question of meat. Speaking by and large, there is no shortage of meat. Some people think that there may be a shortage later on but, if the responsible authorities felt that that was so then clearly the Belgians, the Dutch and the French would not have been allowed to purchase as indiscriminately as they have been. Therefore, we may take it that the responsible authority thinks there is no shortage of meat. If the prices being charged are excessive, if the margins given to the butchers are excessive, then it ought to be quite easy for that margin to be brought down. It only means that the existing slaughter house licence provision would be waived for the period of this emergency by the Government on the one hand and that the trade unions on the other hand would release their existing closed shop regulations so that anyone might get into the business and bring down the margin in that way. It is by less controls, and not by more controls as Senator Duffy thinks, that we will get the cost of living reduced.

We can also subsidise the essential goods that are vital for the poorer classes of the community. I agree entirely with the Minister that a subsidy means that not merely the poorer classes of the people benefit but that the richer ones benefit also, but that could be offset and should be offset in the circumstances that exist by higher taxation on luxuries. Seeing the amount that is being spent at the present by certain sections of the community on frivolities of one sort or another while without question other members of the community are finding it very difficult, if not impossible, to live and to rear up families in frugal comfort, one is rather tempted to regard it as fiddling while Rome burns. Consider the queues for the picture houses, the amount spent on drink, the fact that every dance, no matter what the price of admission, is always packed to overflowing. We must have some idea of realities and if the less fortunate sections of the community are not able to meet the prices then I suggest it is without question the duty of the Government to see that those prices are brought down by subsidy and at the same time to see that there is no inflationary effect, by contradicting inflation by an additional tax on luxuries and frivolities that are not really necessary. That might not be popular in certain classes but it certainly would be effective in seeing that the people who were entitled to a subsidy in the proper circumstances would get it.

Senator Duffy's motion deals purely with one section of the whole problem. It is a problem that cannot be dealt with piecemeal like that. It can be dealt with only by a very much wider approach being made to the whole problem of production, getting more goods for the people here by whatever means they are got, by greater home production on the one hand and by greater imports on the other, and by ensuring that within the State itself, from the Government and from the trade unions there will be a wider appreciation of the fact that freer enterprise and more competitive enterprise means that prices will be brought back to a more reasonable level.

I am sorry that I was not present for the earlier part of the debate but I am persuaded by such of it as I have heard to make one or two remarks. The question of increased production has been frequently referred to. So far as increased production on the part of farmers is concerned, let me say that the farmer very rightly suspects that in the event of increased production taking place, a very considerable fall in prices might follow and that his last state would be worse than his first. I have had some experience of that myself. The easy solution which occurs to some Senators might therefore not work out so well. Might I suggest to Senator Duffy, in the friendliest possible way, that he should withdraw his motion in its present form? I have come to the conclusion that this is a very wide problem with very many ramifications and the method suggested by Senator Sweetman is not, I think, sufficient to deal with it. The people generally are suffering from the present condition of affairs and a feeling of despondency is growing up. I hope nobody will suggest that I am antagonistic to home industries. As long as I remember, I have done everything possible to encourage them. My own people have been engaged in the manufacture of certain commodities for several years and, therefore, I could not be suspected of being in any way hostile to the development of such industries but I cannot refrain from making a few observations in regard to some of these industries.

One sometimes sees a company establishing a factory and in a couple of years extending that factory to a very considerable extent. So far as my information goes, the capital to extend that factory is not fresh capital but is capital provided as it were out of profits. I have three or four glaring cases in mind of that character. If that means anything, it means that very substantial profits must be made in some industries. I am always in favour of giving the home manufacturer every possible opportunity of making a reasonable profit but there is a feeling abroad that the profits in some cases are exorbitant.

The question of wages, too, is one that certainly calls for attention. Perhaps before I come to the actual suggestion I wish to make, I might point out that the present system of measuring increases in the cost of living is not at all an accurate one. It avowedly applies to a labourer—to ascertaining the amount necessary to support a labourer and his family at a minimum subsistence level. Unless we agree that all persons are to be brought down to the labourers' standard of living, we see at once that there is no measurement at present available of the increased cost of living of people who do not belong to that particular class. We have seen occasional activities in that regard on the part of the professional classes here in Dublin. Such activities are merely a reflex of the things that are happening generally. These people find themselves in a terribly difficult position. I, for one, am in the position in my own house that I cannot afford with my present remuneration, to send for a builder and ask him to do certain repairs. It is much more expensive at the present time to employ a tradesman of that kind than to employ a lawyer, and the services of lawyers were hitherto proverbially regarded as the most expensive of all. Therefore, it is a case of letting roofs and everything else go rot rather than incur the expense of employing anybody. I suggest that the method of ascertaining the cost of living should be extended to include different grades and that different sets of indices should be prepared because the present set of indices apply only to one grade. There should be three or four sets of indices prepared to enable us to see where exactly we stand in regard to the increased cost of living.

I was speaking recently to a manufacturer of woollens, a man who was very prominent in the agitation for the establishment of the present tariff system. He is pretty well known, I should say, to the members of the House and to the Minister. He told me that the wholesale cost of material for the making of a suit is something less than £3 but when that is sent up here to Dublin to be made up—he had it done at a cut price if you like—the cost to him of the suit was £10 odd.

I was speaking to another member of the House who told me that his clothes cost him £20 and I think that on the average you may take it that the cost of clothes is from £14 to £16 at the present time. I remember a time not so very long ago when the same suit could be bought for £3. It is all very fine for the manufacturer to say that the labourer is responsible for the increased costs and for the worker to say that it is the manufacturer who is responsible. What we who are suffering from all this want to know is who exactly is responsible, what are the causes of these increased costs and can they be remedied. The causes must be of a general character because the labour agitation is worldwide. However, we are not concerned with costs prevalent outside our own country. What we do want to know is, what is responsible for the costs operating in our own country and whether we can find a solution for this terrible difficulty.

I know many decent, hard-working people who are trying to live respectable God-fearing lives, who find it almost impossible to live on their present income. To listen to their stories about the difficulty of making ends meet is sufficient "to get one down", as is commonly said. My suggestion is that there should be a commission of inquiry into this whole matter, to ascertain, for instance, if tariffs are being availed of and exploited for the purpose of putting up prices and whether there is any truth in the rumours prevalent about abnormal profits on the part of manufacturers. I say that the only way of dealing with that question is to set up a commission of inquiry. We had some contribution towards a solution of this difficulty when a return of national income was produced this year. It was the first return of the kind we had and it was rather difficult for the ordinary layman to follow it. Anyway, it was a beginning and with that and a commission of inquiry, such as I suggest, we might be able to ascertain what exactly are the causes of the increased cost of living.

In that way we could arrive at some amicable settlement of this very difficult problem instead of having employers continually blaming the labourers and the labourers blaming the employers. I would suggest, therefore, to Senator Duffy that if he would propose the setting up of an inquiry on these lines I would have very great pleasure in seconding that proposition. Meanwhile this motion, in its present form, might be withdrawn now that it has been fully discussed. I am sorry that I missed a good part of the debate but from what I did hear I gather that there must have been a very wide discussion of the matter.

There are a few points I would like to bring to the Minister's notice. I see that some Department has been approached by the Dublin butchers for leave to increase the price of meat. About this time last year, or a little later, when beef on the market was making £4 per cwt., the butchers' prices were fixed. During the fall of the year, when beef was sold at less than 60/- on the market, the butchers were not asked to reduce their prices. Because there is a slight increase now, there is a demand to put that on to the workers. I favour the farmer getting a good price for his stock and his beef, but I cannot understand the mentality which is satisfied that it is honesty, when the prices come down—in fact, there was beef sold at 52/- not so long ago—that the price of meat should remain high. I hope the Minister will not accede to the demand, as it would increase the cost on the working-class people, while the farmer is getting no higher price for his beef— in fact, not as high a price as last year.

There is another point, which may not come within the scope of this motion, but which has something to do with the cost of living. It is in connection with rents. At the present time, the local authorities in County Dublin are not building houses, as they say they cannot get the material.

Mr. Hawkins

Surely it is not true that the local authorities in County Dublin are not building houses?

They say they are handicapped for want of material and no new houses have been built. The case I want to bring up is that, just opposite to where this land is available, there is another body of people erecting houses. They must have got a permit from the Minister's Department for the timber so they must be getting a preference. That type of house was built before the war for less than £400. I cannot say what they are costing to build now, but the cement is produced in this country and the gravel is raised here, too, so the only foreign stuff would be the timber, and I doubt if that would increase the cost very much. Even so, we find those houses, such as could be built before the war for £400, being built now and let to tenants at £2 5s. a week, plus rates. If you take the period of 35 years, the normal period chosen by a married couple for house purchase, it means £4,000 in rent, for a very inferior type of house. That should not be allowed. It is most unfair that people with money should profiteer and take advantage of the scarcity of houses in that way. It is very little encouragement to people to get married and settle down.

In regard to the price of turf, the price fixed by the Minister is reasonable. It is subsidised to a great extent. I cannot understand why those Dublin people dependent on the bellmen can never get turf at the fixed price. Senator Duffy has stated they charge 2/- per bag and that there is no question as to how much is in the bag. I saw in the evening paper yesterday where in some cases there may be 40 bags to the ton, when the turf is very light. Owing to the scarcity, the people can say nothing to the bellman about shortage as, if they did, he would reply: "There is a person down the road who wants all I can give and I cannot give you any." It is a compliment to get turf, so the working-class people in Dublin, buying it by the bag at present, are paying £4 per ton, despite the fact that it is subsidised by the State to the extent of 30/- a ton. That is a statement on which I defy contradiction and which I would like to have investigated.

In regard to clothing, everyone knows there is wholesale profiteering. The workingman's shirt, which cost 2/11, 3/11 or 4/11 before the war, is now costing 25/-. I often wonder how workingmen can afford to buy one. There is a shop on the quays selling shirts, to be paid for on the instalment system, as the working man cannot pay out all the money together. I doubt if there is any justification for these prices. In connection with suits of clothes, the material is manufactured here and there is no justification for the increase in prices. The wages of the factory workers have been increased only by a couple of shillings a week. It is a very meagre increase, yet one cannot get a good suit of clothes tailored for less than 12 guineas.

While not by any means throwing any reflection on the Minister, who has tried to fulfil his duties and who has done as well as any other man could have done in the last five years, I say that, despite the efforts made by everybody in the nation, there is something wrong when you see the population forced to leave the country. The little money they are making in the rural areas is no good to them and they are going out as quickly as they can, both to England and Scotland and, if they can get there, to the United States of America. I would like to impress on the Minister and his colleagues that serious notice should be taken of the position in rural Ireland. Go into the churches in the West of Ireland to-day which used to be crowded with youngsters and you find not a handful of people. Go into the schools where there used to be 120 on the roll books and you find now 18; while in schools where there were 80 there are now only 11. There is something wrong that is driving these people out of the country. It is a serious position and will take more than a commission to rectify it. Unless that decay stops and unless we bring in some effective plan to build up the nation, the future does not look very bright.

I would like to congratulate the Minister on his very comprehensive review of this matter. Notwithstanding that, I think there is no justification for the difference between the price the producer gets and the price the consumer has to pay. The Minister should look into that matter. For instance, turkeys bought down the country at 2/2 a lb. are retailed in Dublin at 3/6.

Potatoes can be bought in the market in the country at 18/-, and eggs at 30/- per 120. Having regard to the fact that other markets are much nearer to the city—the markets to which I have been referring are 120 miles off—and having regard to the travelling facilities available, the consumer should be in a position to get those articles much more cheaply than is the case at present. However, I do not say that that is the Minister's fault or that it is his business to do these things. I suggest, as Senator Baxter has already done, that the trade unions which have a large amount of money to their credit, should get agents to buy from co-operative societies or from the farmers direct and, in that way, compete with the stiff prices that it is alleged the people are paying—and which I believe they are paying. I have personal knowledge as regards the turkeys. In former times, 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. was recognised as a reasonable profit for drapers. If 20 per cent. profit is allowed to wholesalers now, it seems fairly high. Many of the retail drapers have said that they were never better off than at present and were never treated so generously. Before prices were controlled, they were not able to get the profit they are getting now. I am personally aware that it is possible to procure both boots and clothing under the fixed prices. The fault some people have to find with children's boots and shoes is their poor quality. Some of them have paper heels. It is bad enough to have to pay big prices, but it is worse when the quality is bad.

I could not support the motion in its present form. If Senator Duffy would bring in a motion suggesting that members of both Houses come together and form a commission, or ask the Government to set up a commission or committee representative of both Houses, to go into the question with the Miniter or the Government, I think that it would be the most useful and the best way to deal with the matter. The motion covers a very wide field and I think that Senator Duffy should withdraw it. He would have, I think, unanimous support if he brought in a motion to have a representative committee of both Houses established to advise the Minister or the Government as to the best means of securing this very desirable object—reduced prices and increased production. Judging by the Minister's statement, I am sure he would not reject such a recommendation.

I do not propose to travel over the ground covered in the debate. I was rather surprised that the Minister and Senator Hawkins should be so far apart in their approach to the subject matter of the motion. Senator Hawkins, with that bland, western geniality of his, could not escape the suspicion that I was engaged in doing some political stuff to embarrass the Fianna Fáil Party. The Minister took a different view. He was willing to agree that I might have other motives than purely political propaganda. As we know historically, the wise men came from the East.

The suggestion that the matter could be dealt with by withdrawing the motion so that a committee might be set up does not appeal to me. I do not want to follow Senator Hawkins' example. If I were to do so, I might recall some experiences I have had with committees in relation to price fixing. I recall having been a signatory to a report in which certain recommendations were made regarding price fixing. So far as I know, the only reply given to the recommendations was a speech made by the present Minister for Industry and Commerce in the pleasant surroundings of a dinner party given by a body of millers in Carlow, at which, I think, he threw ridicule on the recommendations, with the result that the flour millers have been making hundreds of thousands of pounds' profit out of the selling of flour which they would not have made if our recommendations had been accepted. With that experience, I am not very enthusiastic about the appointment of any committee to make recommendations on a matter of this kind.

It will have been observed by everybody in the House that, while the Minister made a most excellent speech, he carefully avoided all the practical issues raised in the discussion. The essential matter is the margin of profit. The Minister tried to suggest that what I was concerned with was the price paid to farmers for fruit, vegetables and so forth. I quoted the prices which, to my knowledge, were being paid to the producers and I considered them, in certain cases, unremunerative. I also quoted the prices which were being charged to the consumers. I quoted from the Connacht Tribune the case of an apple which was traced from Galway to Dublin. The producer got 1d. and the consumer paid 9d.

I have asked the Minister to get after this unjustifiable margin of profit but the Minister has not referred to the margin of profit. He has referred to profit in relation to imports. I know the difficulty and my only criticism in relation to imports was that, if the Minister were to fix a tariff of 25 per cent. which would yield him, say, 5/- on a commodity, and if he was satisfied that 5/- was a sufficiently high margin against the foreign article, he has no right to continue the same percentage tariff when the yield is 15/- or £1. These are two aspects of price control which can be dealt with in a practical manner by the Minister and his Department without making a solitary addition to the staff.

I entirely agree with the suggestion that there is an obligation on the public when they see an instance of overcharging to get after it. But here again my own experience in that regard has not been too happy. I picked up a daily paper in which a certain commodity was advertised at a price of 2/-. I went into a Dublin shop and asked if they had this commodity. They said they had and I got it. I asked the price and they said 2/6. I said that the advertised price of this English firm's products was 2/- and they told me that that was the English price. I pointed out that it was not, that it was the Irish price. I got a receipt for my 2/6 and took my commodity. I brought the receipt to the then Controller of Prices and handed it to him saying: "You should get after that."

After about three months, the Controller of Prices told me that he had dealt with it, that he had discussed the matter with the Dublin Retail Druggists' Association—it was an article in a chemist's shop—and they had fixed on a compromise price of 2/3. I do not see any sense in that. The advertised price was 2/- and then the Controller says that he has compromised with the Dublin Retail Druggists' Association and has decided on a price of 2/3. That seems to me to be sheer humbug. It is not meeting the matter fairly.

The Minister made an extremely good speech and gave us a lot of information which would be quite useful to anybody desiring to examine this problem thoroughly; but he has entirely ignored the essence of the problem. He has dodged the issues I have raised and, I am pretty certain, has given a heartache and a headache to the thousands and thousands of people throughout the country who feel that they are being overcharged and who have been looking to the Minister and his Department to ensure that some practical steps will be taken to bring down prices very considerably. I cannot withdraw the motion and I ask you, Sir, to put it to the House.

Motion put and declared lost.

Votáil.

Would those Deputies who desire a division please stand up?

I take it that the bell is rung before the Senators who desire a division are asked to stand up?

No. Would those Senators who desire a division please rise?

Senators Duffy, Kyle, Smith and Tunney rose.

I take it that the names of those Senators who desire a vote will be recorded?

Motion declared lost.
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