Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jan 1948

Vol. 34 No. 22

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1947—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 4 to delete sub-section (4) and substitute the following sub-section:—

(4) Notwithstanding sub-section (4) of Section 10 of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, a prosecution for an offence under any section of this Act may be brought at any time within whichever of the following periods later expires, that is to say—

(a) three months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the law officer of the housing authority to justify a prosecution for the offence comes to his knowledge, or

(b) twelve months after the commission of the offence,

and a certificate under the signature of the said law officer as to the date on which such evidence comes to his knowledge shall be conclusive evidence thereof.

This amendment is intended to bring into line the provisions of this Bill with those of a number of Acts which have passed through this House in recent years in relation to the time in which proceedings may be taken under an Act.

It will be observed that the provisions of sub-section (4) enable a prosecution to be taken within 12 months from the date of the offence. I think, under the Petty Sessions Act, offences must be prosecuted within six months from the date of the offences. This question was raised in relation to another Bill three or four years ago and, after a good deal of discussion, the Minister in charge of that particular Bill agreed with the members of this House that in general principle the period of six months should not be altered but, as he pointed out, circumstances might arise where it would not be convenient or practicable to take a prosecution within six months. A formula was then agreed upon which provides that, notwithstanding the provisions of Section 10 of the Petty Sessions Act, a prosecution may be brought within limits which enables, in the case of the Bill I have in mind, the Minister to certify that information on which to ground a prosecution reached him on a particular date and that the proceedings must be brought within three months from that date. In other words, the intention of this House, when this question was brought before it on a number of occasions during the past three or four years, was that the proceedings should be brought as soon as possible; in any event, they should be brought not more than 12 months after the date of the offence, but that they should be brought within three months of the date on which information to ground a prosecution reaches the prosecuting authority.

Senators will remember that in the case of the Children's Allowances Act, which we discussed here some years ago, the Minister accepted the view that the proceedings should be brought within three months of the date on which the information to ground the prosecution reached the Minister and he undertook to give a certificate certifying the date on which the information to ground the prosecution came to his knowledge. I think we should try to maintain uniformity in these matters. If it is the practice in the case of the Forestry Act and the Children's Allowances Act and numerous other Acts, where the provisions of the Petty Sessions Act are being set aside, I think we should follow the practice in the other Acts to limit the time in the manner proposed in this amendment during which proceedings may be brought. I urge the House that uniformity should be preserved.

If the circumstances under which this Bill was being considered were not in themselves somewhat unusual, perhaps we might have a longer discussion on this amendment so that the merits of it might be fully investigated; but I ask the Senator not to press it. To do so would mean that the enactment of this measure will be postponed perhaps for some weeks and perhaps for a somewhat longer period. I do not, in these circumstances, wish to prolong the debate unduly by suggesting that the effect of the Senator's amendment may perhaps be to create a certain indefiniteness from the point of time, whereas he wishes, I think, to impose a limiting period of not more than 12 months within which the proceedings may be taken. I would ask him not to press the amendment, it is not, I think, of sufficient importance to justify the holding up of the Bill. I would concede that, if we were in a position to devote the normal period of time to this Committee State, perhaps we might have a prolonged discussion on the amendment.

I would oppose this amendment, because it has the direct opposite effect to what Senator Duffy intends. He states that it is a good thing to have prsecutions brought within a very short time of the commission of an offence, but, if his amendment is passed, it will simply mean that there is no limit of time at all; the prosecution can be brought at any time when the law officer of the housing authority gets knowledge of the offence. The law officer gets notice as soon as he gets instructions from the local authority. Therefore, the local authority can give instructions five, six or ten years after the committal of the offence and if the law officer said: "I only got instructions and only heard of this offence within the last three months", that is sufficient to enable the prosecution to be brought. The amendment will have an exactly opposite effect to what Senator Duffy has in mind.

I do not accept that view, Sir. Senator O'Dea and I took part in a debate in relation to the Children's Allowances Bill here two or three years ago. I protested on that occasion against varying the provisions of the Petty Sessions Act in relation to a particular statute. I am quite prepared to say that we should redraft Section 10 of the Petty Sessions Act in its entirety, but we ought not to be in a position where, allowing Section 10 of the Petty Sessions Act to stand. we put into a Bill, simply at the will and pleasure of a Department, a provision that, notwithstanding Section 10, we can still prosecute in any period of 12 months after the offence is committed. The arrangement which was arrived at on that occasion was suggested by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in response to the representations of Senator O'Dea and myself and this very formula was adopted.

I would urge the Senator to refer to the provisions of the Children's Allowances Act and see whether or not this amendment is on exactly the same lines as the corresponding section in the Children's Allowances Act, subject to this reservation that, under that Act, the prosecution is brought within three months after the date on which information on which to base the prosecution reaches the Minister and he so certifies. As the Minister is not the prosecutor in this case and as information on which to base a prosecution may not reach him at all, I substituted in the amendment the law officer of the local authority, but I am quite prepared to substitute the manager of the local authority or the chief executive officer of the local authority.

I do not want to prolong the discussion. The Minister puts this case on a different basis. I think he agrees entirely that there should be uniformity in these matters. It seems to me that if we are to press for uniformity we shall have a long discussion on this amendment. I am prepared to admit that the amendment would have to be withdrawn and submitted in a different form on Report Stage. I do not want to go through these formalities and I do not desire to press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."

I am not quite clear as to why it was necessary to insert these provisions with regard to the responsibility of company directors and officials. Surely it is part of the general law that the directors and officials are responsible for the wrongdoings of a company. Why is it necessary to set that out in this Bill rather than in a number of other Acts where persons, including companies, are responsible for proper performance?

I think Senator Sir John Keane is mistaken about that. An offence may be committed by a company and, generally, it has been held that a company is not liable to the criminal law. That is one of the reasons, I assume, that that section is put in that way.

I may say, just to help Senator Sir John Keane, that this is a provision which it has been found necessary to include in other Acts—the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act, 1933, the Shops (Conditions of Employment) Act, 1938, the Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938, the Emergency Powers Act, 1939, and the Supplies and, Services Act, 1946. We have been advised that, in order fully to cover the position, a section in these terms is necessary.

Am I correct in stating that directors are not responsible for the wrongdoings of their company unless that responsibility is set out in the relative Act and, where there is no such provision as is now laid down, directors are not responsible? It is a question of statute law. I am puzzled that it should be necessary to set out in each particular statute the responsibility of directors and, where that responsibility is not set out, is there no responsibility? That is what puzzles me.

Do not ask me to give a general interpretation of what the law is on the subject but, at any rate, I am advised that it is necessary to incorporate a section in these terms in this Bill if we really wish fully to cover the position.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 7 and 8 put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 2:—

Before Section 9 to insert the following new section:—

9.—Nothing contained in Sections 7 or 8 of this Act shall be so construed as to prohibit the use of a dwellinghouse by the occupier thereof for the purpose of carrying on any home trade which apart from this Act may lawfully be carried on in such dwellinghouse.

The two sections which have just been passed deal with the right of an occupier of a house to use that house for certain purposes. Section 8 says that—

"a person shall not demolish in whole or in part or use otherwise than as a dwellinghouse any habitable house unless he has the permission, given under sub-section (1) of Section 7 of this Act."

It seems to me that these provisions are very drastic in relation to people who have been in the habit of carrying on certain occupations in their own houses. For instance, in Dublin you will find a considerable number of women who take work from the shops which they carry out in their own homes. They have been in the habit of doing that all their lives. Let me give an example. A woman who is a tailoress will go into a house like Clerys, or Todds or Arnotts and contract with the cutter there to take home garments, which are cut out for her, to be made up at home. In other words, she is an out worker. That kind of work is done in relation to paper bags, clothing and a number of other things in a city like Dublin. It is probably done also in Cork and in other cities. I am now drawing attention to the fact that it is done extensively in Dublin. The effect of Sections 7 and 8 would seem to me to prevent the occupier of a dwellinghouse from carrying on a home trade which has been carried on in that house in the past. I want to ensure that this measure, when it becomes an Act, will be made clear on the point that there is not obligation on the present occupier of premises to get specific permission from the local authority to carry on a home trade where that has been the normal custom.

I think the amendment is entirely unnecessary. You have cases under the Increase of Rent Act where a house is partly used for business and partly used as a dwelling. Such houses are held to be dwellinghouses. In this Bill, the expression "dwellinghouse" is defined to mean "a building constructed or adapted to be used wholly or principally for human habitation." As long as the premises are used principally for human habitation, then they would be held to be dwellinghouses.

I think that Senator O'Dea has put his finger on the kernel of this matter. I do not think the amendment is at all necessary, because it is assumed that, if a house is being used principally for living in, a person may carry on inside that house any sort of work which would normally be done at home. Therefore, if dress-makers, for example, were to take home work to do in their own homes they would not be infringing the provisions in Sections 7 and 8. I think the amendment is entirely unnecessary. I think, too, in relation to matters of this sort, that we can depend on the housing authorities to act with ordinary common sense. In fact some of them are inclined to go to the other extreme. They not merely allow a dwellinghouse to be used to carry out the work which is normally done in the home, but, in fact, they go far beyond that, and allow it to be converted to other uses. I do not think that in present circumstances it is necessary to press the amendment. As I said on the Second Stage of the Bill, we shall probably be having a consolidation Act coming along within the next year or two, and if it is then found necessary to amend the section as it stands I am sure that an amendment to safeguard the position which Senator Duffy has in mind will be introduced.

The activities of a local authority under the Bill are very largely subject to sanction by the Minister. If the Minister will give an undertaking that he will keep this point in mind, that will satisfy me—once it is clearly understood that the provisions of the Bill in relation to the use of a dwellinghouse are not intended to prevent people doing what they are lawfully entitled to do now in a dwellinghouse in relation to a home trade.

Under Section 7 there is the right of appeal to the Minister. I can give the Senator the assurance that, so far as the present Minister is concerned, this section was not designed or intended to prevent work being done in the home which would normally be done there arising out of a person's employment or occupation outside.

I am satisfied.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 9 and 10 agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I desire to get some information from the Minister with regard to this section. The object of the section, apparently, is to prevent the sub-division of a dwellinghouse and the creation of a tenement house. I find that the term "tenement house" is now covered by the more respectable title of "multiple dwelling". A portion of the multiple dwelling may be either a respectable flat or an overcrowded tenement. Apparently, under this Bill all these sub-divisions, where they are created in the future, will be subject to the sanction of the local authority. I speak subject to correction as to what the position will be with regard to sub-divisions which now exist. As I read the section, permission to sub-divide a dwelling will have to be obtained in writing, and that permission has to be granted before the 1st July, 1948. After that date, it will be an offence to sub-divide any house into one or more separate dwellings without the consent in writing of the local authority. Does the Minister think that it will be possible to carry through such a large volume of work as is there envisaged before the 1st July? It seems to me that an enormous amount of work will have to be done. I agree, of course, that this provision is confined to certain areas such as Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick. It is in these areas that most of these multiple dwellings exist. If all this work that I speak of cannot be done by the 1st July, what will the position be? If a person sub-divides a house without that permission in writing, will he be committing an offence, even though it was not possible, administratively, to carry out the permit provision by the date set down in the section?

I am puzzled by this expression "multiple dwelling". It is defined to mean "premises let in parts to form two or more dwellings". There is no definition in the Bill, so far as I can see, of the word "dwelling". There may be a definition of it in other Acts, but there is so much of this legislation by reference that it is very difficult for anybody to keep track of it all. Since there is no definition, so far as I can see, of a dwelling, what is the position going to be with regard to lodgers? If a person lets a room or two rooms to a lodger, what will the position be? I feel that all these definitions ought to be made clear not merely to our satisfaction but to the satisfaction of those who are going to be affected by them. What I fear is that it will not be possible to grant all the necessary permissions within the time set out in sub-section (4). I would ask the Minister to amplify the definition of "multiple dwelling."

There is another point to be considered in regard to this section. I think that, in so far as it is the desire of the Minister to limit the number of persons who will be permitted to reside in any dwellinghouse, his proposal will meet with the general approval of the House; but, while saying that, one must be conscious of the fact that there is to-day, in Dublin particularly, a dreadful shortage of living accommodation. A case was brought to my notice quite recently of a woman, her husband and three children who were forced to leave a mother-in-law's house because the mother-in-law occupied a house provided by the corporation. The occupier, her husband and some members of her family lived in the house and a daughter got married. After some years, the daughter, her husband and children were evicted from a basement dwelling in the city which they occupied. Having nowhere to go, they went into this corporation house, and notice was then served on the occupier that, unless she got rid of her tenants, proceedings would be taken against her for recovery of the premises on behalf of the corporation. The result was that, to save herself from eviction, the mother-in-law intimated to her daughter and son-in-law that they must get out, and they did so.

These people have been living for 12 months in this way: they go into the Dublin Union at 9 o'clock at night and get out at 8 o'clock in the morning. They walk the streets all day. The husband has been working at periods and has been unemployed at other periods, and early this winter he was unemployed. They had no place to go and everywhere they turned they found difficulty in getting accommodation. In one instance, the man concerned applied to an agent who had two rooms to let down on Wellington Quay. He started to enumerate the grounds upon which he thought he should get preference, saying that he had three children. The agent told him that these were three black marks against him and that the rooms would not be let to him because he had three children. Up to this week, these people have been for almost 12 months living in these conditions. This week, through the intervention of a member of the corporation, they have been enabled to get a basement in the centre of the city.

I am drawing the attention of the Minister to that fact in relation to the effect of Section 11. While we all agree with the basic intention of the section. I urge on the Minister that it would be a terribly serious matter if people were forced to leave these dwellings, no matter how poor they are, no matter how bad they are, before alternative accommodation is provided. It will be generally agreed that the providing of alternative accommodation for the thousands of families in Dublin looking for accommodation is going to be a very slow process. I do not know what the Minister's intentions are— whether he intends this section to apply rigidly from July next or whether it is merely a guiding principle for the local authorities so that they might be active in preventing sub-letting where it can be avoided—but terrible hardship will be inflicted if people are forced to leave these dwellings, no matter how unsatisfied they may be, before alternative accommodation is provided for them.

I fear that Senators are reading more into the section than is really written in it. The stated object of the section is not, as has been suggested, to prevent the sub-division of houses. It is merely to ensure that, if houses are sub-divided, the housing authority will have knowledge of the matter and will be entitled to impose certain conditions in regard to that sub-division. All that is said here is that persons shall not permit premises to be used as a multiple dwelling without the permission in writing of the housing authority, and it is further stated that that permission shall not be unreasonably withheld. I think that has a bearing on the point raised by Senator Sir John Keane. The administration of this section rests entirely with the housing authority. Before we put down this operative date, 1st July, we took the matter up with the housing authority and we have been assured that, so far as the Dublin Corporation is concerned—and the problem is proportionately greater in Dublin than anywhere else—they will have no difficulty in dealing with all the applications which come before them in relation to this matter, and, I assume, in granting the necessary authority.

I am not going to suggest that at the outset the housing authority will embody in this permission all the governing conditions which it will lay down after the section has been in operation for perhaps two or three years and they become fully seized with the problem, but they have assured us that, so far as the granting of permission is concerned, there is not likely to be any great difficulty or any undue delay. If there were undue delay in dealing with these applications—I cannot bind the courts and I am not going to go further; I am merely adopting the approach of the ordinary layman with common sense when I say it —I assume that, a provision having been included in the section to the effect that permission shall not be unreasonably withheld, it must mean that, since there is a limited period of time in which the permission must be granted, if the application is made in reasonable time, the housing authority will have to grant the permission. Otherwise, the courts would hold that it had been unreasonably withheld, since the housing authority is not able to deal with the application in any very close exhaustive way. That is how, I think, the ordinary layman would approach it, and I do not think any very great difficulty is likely to be occasioned by reason of the fact that this section is to come into operation on 1st July this year.

As to the other aspect which Senator Duffy raised, it really has nothing to do with the section at all. The primary purpose of Section 11 is to enable a corporation to institute a register of multiple dwellings, and, in due time, to ensure that no multiple dwelling will come into existence or will be permitted to remain in existence, unless certain conditions which are necessary for the health of the public in general and of the individual living in the dwelling in particular are complied with.

The other matter Senator Duffy has raised as to a mother-in-law having to put her son, daughter-in-law, and family out of a house in order to protect herself is, I think, rather beside the point. I suggest—and not merely that, I contend—that it is not by any means a usual practice of the corporation. On the contrary, where a dwelling is shared by relatives, the corporation take a very lenient and commonsense view of the sub-division of the dwellinghouses. They are bound to do that, because, as the housing authority, they are aware—as we are all aware—of the acute housing shortage. Therefore, as a rule they do not compel tenants to eject the families of close relatives. They take a very lenient view and may turn a blind eye to a violation of the original conditions of the tenancy. Where a mother-in-law is compelled to put her son-in-law and family out, I am afraid there is a little more behind it than that. I do not want to press that, but I think we can assume it.

Senator Sir John Keane said there is no definition of "dwelling" in the Bill. There are thousands of words in it for which we have no definition and we will have to rely on the court to interpet the Act in accordance with the usual interpretation and connotation of plain English. They know what a dwelling is. We have a definition of "dwellinghouse", to which the courts may refer themselves for guidance.

There is a definition of "multiple dwelling".

Yes, but Senator Sir John Keane wants to know what a dwelling is, whether it is a single dwelling, a multiple dwelling or a composite dwelling. We will have to leave that to the court to determine in the light of the knowledge it has of the plain meaning of ordinary English.

Could the Minister say whether a premises one part of which was business and the other part dwelling would be a multiple dwelling or not? My reading of it is that it would not.

It would not.

Where a caretaker was allowed to live, would that be a multiple dwelling? I have been asked that question myself and could not find an answer in the Bill.

Senator Duffy has also referred to lodgers. They would not count. They would be covered by the Public Health Act, 1878.

I should be very puzzled if asked to say whether a lodger makes a difference in the term "dwelling." I believe a lodger comes into the definition of dwelling, so that every house that has lodgers would become a multiple dwelling. This is full of ambiguities and difficulties. One may say these are only fine points that do not matter and that the purpose of the section is to give the local housing authority and the Minister power to deal with the main evils of overcrowding.

With reference to the better-class houses divided into flats, apparently the housing authority is going to define the maximum number of people who can be allowed to live in any sub-dwelling to a multiple dwelling. What power has the housing authority or anybody else to go in there and inspect the premises to ensure that those conditions are being observed? I imagine they would need something more than the power given by regulations. It raises a big point of constitutional significance—the right of entry into persons' houses without clear statutory authority—and that point does not appear to be covered by the section. It will be intolerable if inspectors have the right to walk into multiple dwellings and satisfy themselves as to how many people occupy any given sub-dwelling. If I own a house now and wish to let it to two or three lodgers, and there is no question of overcrowding, does the Minister say I must go to the housing authority and get permission to make these lettings or otherwise I will be infringing this section? The Minister may say he has no time to go into all this now, as the Bill is being debated under special circumstances, but this is a new provision in our Housing Acts and, in my opinion, it deserves from the Oireachtas the most careful, close and critical examination.

It is not clear to me whether the functions under Section 11 will be reserved or managerial functions.

They are managerial —executive—functions.

We are up against a new problem. I suspected that as no provision had been made to describe them as reserved functions they would be managerial. This deprives the elected members of a city council of any right to interfere with the discretion of the manager or his officials in the implementation of this section. Had this been a reserved function, the 45 members of the Dublin Corporation could interest themselves in what has been done under it. They could put down a motion and debate it and could give directions in regard to these provisions, and I would feel happier about it. However, we all know what happens when the matter is one of managerial discretion. The manager cannot handle all these problems, he cannot know whether Mrs. Murphy has been treated fairly or unfairly, whether her house is one in which there should be a multiple dwelling or not. He must leave all that to the officials and those officials are responsible to nobody, except in so far as the Minister for Local Government has a right to interfere—and his right of interference is very limited, particularly where the local authority have no discretion in the matter.

On the question of definition of "dwelling", the Minister made a remark which aroused in my mind a good deal of suspicion. He said: "I think we all know what is meant by a ‘dwelling'."

I did not say that.

I would draw the Minister's attention to a statement made in Great Britain in relation to the Workmen's Compensation Act when a case came before the courts many years ago. The judge on that occasion— Lord Halsbury, I think—said: "We all know what ‘an accident' means": but 70 subsequent appeals were made to the House of Lords to determine what the word "accident" meant. So it is not at all unlikely that these simple words "dwelling", "dwellinghouse" which look so simple to the layman may prove a very fruitful source of inquiry and of revenue to the legal profession. If it is at all possible we should close that gap and define each phrase or word in the Bill so as to ensure that all will know what they mean and that there will be no doubt in the minds of lawyers. It is desirable that it should be done and that it should be done now.

I understand that the Senator suggests that at this stage we should endeavour to cope with a situation where there could be 70 decisions on the meaning of a word. I do not know what sort of a volume we should produce before getting away from Section 11. Surely we have got to assume at the outset that our judiciary will interpret the laws and statutes of the Oireachtas with ordinary common sense and in accordance with the commonly accepted meaning of the English language or the Irish language. The Senator is a lawyer while I am merely a layman, but I will give the judiciary credit for more common sense than the Senator is apparently prepared to give. We cannot stultify ourselves by assuming that another organ is not going to act in an honest way.

I am not suggesting that.

If the Senator is not suggesting that, let us make a beginning with this and if in time we find that we have not been sufficiently precise in what we have written in the statute, let us try to render our meaning more explicitly clear in further amending Acts. I suggest that the word "dwelling" conveys a sufficiently clear concept to the ordinary rational mind for us to allow it to go ahead without further definition.

I would ask the Minister to take this matter more seriously than he appears to be doing. I drew attention in the course of the debate in 1947 to a fact which was commented upon and verified by the Minister for Justice in the month of December. The fact was that two chief justices differed so widely from each other in a case that one said that the Rules Publications Act of 1893 was in full force in this country while the other ruled that it had never been adapted and had no force in this country. Both were rational men and read the law as they saw it. After all, we are dealing with fallible human beings. One man will say: "Here is a paragraph, statement or word which means one thing" while another person equally competent and honest says that it means something else. That is why we have appeals and why cases are reversed in higher courts.

We, who are fallible human beings, are expected to have sufficient foresight and omniscience to make a statute which will convert other human beings into infallible human beings. Such a thing is not possible, so let us go ahead and see what happens.

I think that this is a profoundly unsatisfactory attitude of the Minister. We are not to attempt to examine what "dwelling" means but we are to leave it to the courts to fill in as best they can and to do what we ourselves have failed to do. We should give the courts something clear on which to work and we should not throw loose definitions into an Act of Parliament saying that the courts know what we mean. We have a distinct responsibility and I have brought up a specific case in regard to a house occupied by lodgers. Is it a dwelling or not? The Minister refuses to answer and says that the courts will know and I think that this is profoundly unsatisfactory. We should say whether lodgers are included in multiple dwellings or not and it is wrong for us to leave it in a loose way to the courts. We all know that judges have animadverted, and rightly so, on the loose methods of Parliament and we have a responsibility. The Minister never answered me in regard to the right of entry. A man's home is supposed to be his castle and has the Government the right of entry there to see how many people are occupying a flat or must we leave that question to the courts too?

I am sorry that I have roused Senator Sir John Keane to such extremes of indignation. I did think that the Senator had heard Senator O'Dea on this matter. Senator O'Dea pointed out that persons who occupied a place as lodgers did not occupy a separate dwellings but shared another person's dwelling and that they were covered by the Public Health Act of 1878. I assumed that Senator Sir John Keane had heard that and had accepted what Senator O'Dea had said. Senator O'Dea was correct and therefore I did not refer further to the point which the Senator raised in relation to lodgers.

As to the right of entry, perhaps I ought to say that what we are doing here is not something entirely novel in principle, as Senator Sir John Keane said, but something which has been attempted before, particularly by Dublin Corporation. We are going further perhaps, because they did it under a private Act, while we are giving power to other municipalities to do what Dublin Corporation tried to do by their Act of 1890. That is to say, they tried to ensure, where a building was let in tenements or separate dwellings or multiple dwellings, according to the phrase in the section, that they would be duly notified of that fact and be able to take certain steps. For one reason and another, Dublin Corporation found at an early stage that the 1890 Act was defective, and attempts were made by them, notably in a Bill of 1908, and subsequently, to make the original provisions of the Act of 1890 effective. We are carrying this a stage further to see if we can find a solution for the problem which has hitherto baulked Dublin Corporation. We are all anxious to see that such control is maintained over the use of dwellinghouses so as to prevent the creation of slums. Under existing Acts, Dublin Corporation sub-sanitary officers have the right to inspect dwellings which they think are being let as tenements.

If the Seanad will be with me while I read the report on this matter from the Committee of Inquiry into the Housing of Working Classes in Dublin, set up in 1939, I think that the matter will be clearer. The by-laws made under the Act of 1890 impose a duty on the owner to notify the corporation that he has let a house to more than one family. That is what we are asking here but we are making it an offence to let a house to more than one family without having received the permission in writing of the corporation. I think the Senator will concede that there is no difference. We are endeavouring, by putting the onus on the owner not to let the house, to operate the principle more effectively. The relevant by-law reads:—

"...upon which the corporation may lay down what they deem necessary to be done in connection with the building..."

That is precisely what we are doing in Section 12. We are giving the corporation power to attach conditions as to the repair, alteration or reconditioning of premises: a condition as to the number of dwellings which may be provided in the premises: a condition as to the maximum number of persons who may occupy each separate dwelling provided in the premises, and a condition as to responsibility for maintenance of the premises. Here is what the corporation were empowered to do under the by-laws made by them under the Act of 1890:—

"...upon which the corporations may lay down what they deem necessary to be done in connection with the building"

—and the building is registered.

Under the Acts of 1870 and 1878 under which by-laws are made governing these conditions upon which premises may be let, among other things these by-laws specify the number of cubic feet of space to be allowed for each person. They also impose on the owner the responsibility for providing water closet accommodation sufficient for the inhabitants, a sufficient supply of pure water, and he is responsible also for maintaining the roofs, external walls and basements in a reasonable state of repair. These by-laws remained in force until 1908 when they were superseded by another set which were, perhaps, even more stringent. I submit that under Sections 11 and 12 we are not doing anything more than trying to make more effective the by-laws which were made under the Public Health Act of 1878 and subsequently under the Corporation Act of 1890. We are not introducing anything novel. We are not introducing, as has been suggested by Senator Sir John Keane, anything that had not been attempted in previous legislation.

I do not intend to pursue the matter any further but, in my own perverse way, I am not satisfied. I do see a difference between taking power to go in and satisfy oneself with regard to tenement houses and the power of forcible entry into a flat which has its own private halldoor to see that the conditions are being observed. I feel that I have not yet been answered with regard to the power of entry. I think that in the course of time a whole host of problems will arise under this section. Time will tell.

I do not know whether Senator Sir John Keane understands that there is exempted by Section 13 a flat which would produce a rent above that which a person of the working-classes would be likely to pay for the letting.

Only if it is furnished.

Yes. Of course the reason is that that would be governed by the Rent Restrictions Act.

Not if it is furnished.

It would. It does come within that Act. First of all a furnished flat, even if it is controlled under the Rent Restrictions Act, is controlled by the rent payable on the 7th May, 1941.

I suggest that that is not so.

It is, but the very important question is whether it is a self-contained flat or not. It must be a self-contained flat in order to be excluded from any of the benefits of the Act. Therefore, the landlord, in order to show that it is a self-contained flat, must show that it has proper lavatories and other accommodation. If he cannot do that, he cannot charge an increased rent. He cannot charge more than a proportion of the standard rent of that particular flat. We are dealing here with a class of houses where a family may be put into possession of rooms which have not the proper amenities for a family. Because of that the corporation are enabled to protect these people. This only refers to certain towns, but the Minister can apply it to any town with a certain population.

If people apply to the corporation for permission to let one or two families in they will be asked for particulars as regards accommodation. They will be asked if they are going to put the people into a house where they will be treated like cattle—where they will not have the proper amenities which men and women ought to have. They will be told that if they can provide the proper amenities they will be given the required permission, but that if they are not able to provide these amenities the permission will not be given.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

I wonder if the Minister could tell me the position where permission is not granted on good grounds although the premises are at present let? On whom will fall the onus of putting out the tenant?

On the owner.

So the position is that if a house is let, say, in three flats, and if the local authority do not give permission to retain it as a multiple dwelling, and if the persons refuse to go out, then the penalties will be applied to the owner although he may have done his part? That point has been put to me and I should be glad to have an answer.

They will have to get the permission of the housing authority before they get in.

The point is that they are in. I am referring to people who are in at the moment.

I am not quite clear, because after all I am not a lawyer, but I assume that in the first case under the Rent Restrictions Act if the landlord proposes to put tenants out they will have the right of appeal. I assume the owner would plead the provisions of Sections 11 or 12 and the fact that he had been refused permission.

That will only apply where the flat is reconstructed on the 7th May, 1941.

Perhaps, but let me deal with the general question. I assume you do not expect the Minister or anybody else to deal with fine points now. I take it, in general, that if permission has been refused to an owner, and if the owner proceeds to eject the occupants of these separate dwellings, he will succeed in ejecting them unless they go to the courts under the Rent Restrictions Act. Assuming, in general, that they are covered by that Act, the question would naturally arise. The owner would say that he tried to get these people out but that they would not go out, and somebody would probably raise the provisions of Section 11 or Section 12. That may mean that people would be driven back to having recourse to sub-section (6) of Section 12 which gives the owner a right of appeal against a refusal of permission by a housing authority. I assume that he would say: "It is a case of Hobson's choice; I have to evict these people; the court will not allow me to evict them under the Rent Restrictions Act and I suggest, therefore, that the only reasonable way out of my difficulty is that the court should compel the housing authority to give me the necessary permission until such time as I am in a position to get rid of these people and comply with the reasonable requirements of the housing authority."

I am not a lawyer any more than the Minister is but I have a shrewd suspicion that, even under the most favourable circumstances, it will take anything from six to nine months to get the tenants out. During that time the owner is liable to a fine of £5 per day. I suggest there is a flaw somewhere. If the landlord fails to get the necessary permission and takes the necessary legal action then he should not be liable to such a fine.

He is not liable to a fine of £5 per day. He is liable to a fine not exceeding £5. It cannot be assumed for a moment that the court will impose the maximum fine in circumstances like that.

It is a fine of £5 per day after conviction.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.
Question proposed: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

I move amendment No. 3:—

To delete the section.

I think everybody knows that the great scandal in relation to house control and rent control has been the evasion permitted under the provisions in regard to furnished lettings. When rents were controlled it was open to the landlord to put in a few sticks of furniture and call his letting a furnished letting. Subsequent to that action on the part of the landlord "the sky was the limit" in regard to rent. That is an obvious method of avoiding this multiple dwellings provision. A sparsely furnished sub-dwelling can be called a furnished dwelling.

What does furniture mean? It is defined under sub-section (4). A furnished letting means a letting of a dwelling which includes payment for board, attendance, or the use of furniture. I take it you can have a furnished letting, provided you supply board and attendance, because these are alternatives. There need be no furniture so long as board and attendance are given or so long as steps are taken for the supply to the sub-dwelling of heat, hot water, fuel or electricity. As I read it, one need only provide heat, hot water, fuel or electricity in order to come within a furnished dwelling. The sub-section also says "or any other commodity". You might provide window-cleaning and in that way qualify as a furnished dwelling. "Or the rendering of any services in connection with the dwelling"—you might have a porter or somebody to open the door. The only safeguard then is the proportion of the total rent attributable to such services. As far as I can see, if quarter or more of the rent is attributable to that service, the letting becomes a furnished letting; if it is less than a quarter, it fails to qualify as a furnished dwelling. On the face of it is not that an absurd position?

Who is going to assess the relative proportions of these rents? I can see no right of appeal to anybody on the apportionment of the services or the use of furniture as against the total rent. What values will be brought into operation? This is a delightful section for the lawyers. I can see endless opportunities for them. What is the objection to bringing in these furnished lettings under Section 11? Why not permit them to be part of the multiple dwellings machinery? That seems a simple solution to me. If the provision is left as it is a whole host of artificial difficulties will arise and endless complications will ensue. Here one is merely perpetuating all the scandals of the housing code under which wholly nominal conditions as regards furniture were overcome. If my suggestion is accepted, the Bill will be impaired in no way. In fact, I think it would be an improvement if this section were taken out completely and furnished lettings were brought in under multiple dwellings.

The position under this section seems to me to be entirely unsatisfactory. Section 11 provides that after a certain date a person shall not permit a premises to be used as a multiple dwelling without a written permission from the housing authority. Section 13 provides that if, in the opinion of the housing authority, the rent of a particular premises—if that premises comes within the definition of Section 13—is greater than the rent which a person of the working classes would be likely to pay the whole letting is outside the scope of this Act. How is the housing authority to determine the amount of rent a person of the working classes is likely to pay? What is happening to-day is that people of the working classes are paying more for dwellings than are the people of the leisure classes.

Very often they are well able to do that.

That may be so, but they are paying these rents at the expense of food for their families. There is no other alternative for thousands of people in this city except to take a premises at any rent the landlord cares to demand. Under this measure the City Manager in Dublin will have imposed upon him arbitrary powers of determining the rents which people of the working classes are likely to pay. Once the rent goes above that level then, so long as the conditions of Section 13 are complied with, there can be as many sublettings as the landlord wishes to have and as much over-crowding as the landlord will permit. The whole machinery of Section 11 goes by the board. If Section 11 means anything its main purpose is to restrict overcrowding and to restrict the use of premises by more people than the housing authority permits. Once a sufficiently high rent is charged the premises cease to come within the scope of this Bill. The City Manager in Dublin may take the view that a reasonable rent a member of the working class would pay is 5/- per week. If the landlord charges 6/- per week his premises are outside the provisions of the Bill. Of course that is subject to the reservation in sub-section (2) to which Senator Sir John Keane referred. If the value placed by the City Manager on the services rendered in respect of a dwelling is less than one-fourth, this sub-section (1) applies.

Let us see what happens. Somebody takes a furnished flat at £2 a week and there is hot water laid on, and some other services of that kind are provided. The City Manager says that these are worth 10/- a week. In that case the rent, apart from the charges for the amenities, is 30/- and consequently the flat is covered by this Bill. All the landlord need do is to charge enough and he is safe; he is outside the provisions of this Bill. The landlords are doing that with a vengeance. I know a case in this city where two or three rooms which were let at £1 a week five years ago are now let at £3 10s. 0d. a week; and flats will go higher so long as people do not care tuppence who occupies them, whether they come from England or America or anywhere else. The owner is entitled to let them if the house has been reconstructed into separate flats at any time from the 7th May, 1941, because the Rent Restrictions Acts do not apply. That was done deliberately in face of warnings in this House that a scandal was being perpetuated in the interest, I allege, of certain sections of the community.

My objection to this section is that it contains a term of which I simply do not understand the meaning. It refers to "a person of the working classes". Who are the working classes? I claim to be a member of the working classes. Comrade Sir John Keane also has claimed to be a member of the working classes. Has a term which is so all embracive as to include Comrade Sir John Keane and myself and Senator Duffy and Senator Foran any definite meaning whatever which could be crystallised by any law court anywhere?

I do not know exactly what aspect of the discussion I should address myself to; whether, for instance, I should advert to the fact that Senator Sir John Keane in his argument in regard to Section 13 does not seem to be maintaining the position which he adopted in regard to Sections 11 and 12, where he thought these sections were an infringement upon the constitutional right of the subject.

May I explain to the Minister? It was only the right of forcible entry that I said was an infringement upon the constitutional rights. I was never answered about that and whether I was right or wrong I do not know.

I do not want to go back to Sections 11 and 12, but I can assure Senator Sir John Keane that an Act passed by the Oireachtas in 1931 imposed upon the local authority the duty "to cause an inspection of their district to be made from time to time with a view to ascertaining whether any dwellinghouse therein is unfit for human habitation, and for that purpose it shall be the duty of the local authority and every officer of the local authority to comply with such regulations and to keep such records as the Minister may prescribe." Under that there was the right of entry.

Really I cannot see what the difficulty is here. We are endeavouring in this section to relieve the corporation of the responsibility for having to enforce a statutory provision which would bring inside its scope furnished flats of a type which, quite obviously, do not require to be inspected with a view to preventing them from becoming overcrowded. We want to exclude, if you like, the more comfortable and luxurious lodgings and furnished flats which we know exist, for the simple reason that we do not think it necessary that they should be inspected and that we do not want to impose on the corporation staff the duty of inspecting them to the detriment of the much more essential work which we think they ought to be attending to in ensuring that the dwellings of the less fortunate classes which are likely to be overcrowded and where the conditions are likely to be detrimental to the health of the community and the individual will be inspected. That is mainly the purpose of the section.

I do not rightly appreciate what Senator Sir John Keane has in mind in putting down this amendment. Does he wish by deleting the section to have all these comfortable and luxurious flats and lodgings inspected? If he does, it simply means that he will impose an added burden on the corporation, the cost of which will have to be borne by the ratepayers for whom the Senator is very often the spokesman and champion. I do not think it is necessary to do it and I do not think we should do it unnecessarily, because, if we do, we are going to do it at the cost of the much more essential work which the staff of the local authority should be undertaking. I cannot really see how this section as it stands opens a way to any of the abuses which the Senator mentioned. Somebody, naturally, must determine whether the rent is greater than the rent which a person of the working classes would be likely to pay for the letting. I concede at once that there is no definition of "working classes". Nevertheless, that term is generally taken to mean, so far as housing is concerned, manual workers and people within the low income group.

Is there any legal definition of the term "working classes"?

There is no legal definition of "working classes". There is no definition of a suit and we all know what a suit means. There is no definition of a chair, a bench or a seat, but we all know what these things mean. Generally, when we talk about the housing of the working classes, we do not mean the housing of people who are in the comfortable financial position of some Senators here or of some other members of the community. We generally mean those people who have to earn their bread, as the saying is, by the sweat of their brow or the work of their hands under conditions which seem to justify the concession to them of unusual assistance by the community. I take it that that is what we generally mean by people of the working classes.

As it will be the City Manager who will be the responsible officer under this section or the appropriate officer who acts under the City Manager and in the name of the corporation, I assume that he is as competent to determine what is generally meant by the term, "a person of the working classes", as, say, a district justice or a judge of the High Court or any other person, even a Senator, or, if you like, a Minister of State. Therefore, I think that we need not start to split hairs about the fact that it is the housing authority which is to determine this question. In fact, I think that no suitable alternative could be found to the housing authority to determine this question, because, after all, the housing authority has a much wider knowledge and a much greater experience of the administration of the Housing of the Working-Class Acts than other persons or agencies normally have. Again, I think that the appropriate officer of the housing authorities is as competent—more competent, I should perhaps say—than most other people would be to determine what fraction of the rent would be properly attributable to the services rendered or the commodities provided by a landlord in the case of a furnished letting. Bearing in mind that we do not want to complicate the task of local authorities unduly by imposing upon them unnecessary obligations, and, at the same time, that we do not want to allow the terms of the provisions of Sections 11 and 12 to be readily evaded, I think it will be seen that this section is essential and that it is not at all as objectionable as Senator Sir John Keane and Senator Duffy would have us believe.

I think the Minister himself feels that his case is rather weak when he defends the section upon the well-to-do furnished flat. Obviously there need not be a stick of furniture in a flat at all; if you provide hot water and window cleaning, as I have said before, up to a value of a quarter of the total rent, that is a furnished flat. The object of my amendment is really to carry out what the Minister is attempting under Section 11 and to avoid the evasion of Section 11 under the provisions of Section 13. Really it is deplorable at this late stage that we should have this spirit of distraction over a matter of this kind. I am surprised that the Minister attempted to define a furnished dwelling; I do not think anybody has ever attempted it before. It may be a dwelling that has not a stick of furniture in it at all. I think that is an extraordinary definition. Then you have this old argument about economy, and it is said that, although I am always advocating economic administration, I now want to add to the burden of the rates in this case. We have got to look at this case on its essential merits instead of chasing hares about extra inspectors and the burden they would involve on the rates. I cannot believe that it would mean any appreciable burden on the rates. I think the amendment would secure what the Minister himself seeks to achieve under the earlier sections and I strongly urge that the section be deleted.

There have been Acts passed to promote the housing of the working classes and in these cases no definition has been given to the term "the working class"—

No restrictive definition. There are illustrative definitions but no restrictive definitions.

What would be the effect if Senator Sir John Keane's amendment were adopted?

It would bring every flat within the terms of the Bill and would render it, perhaps, completely unworkable.

People are often exploited whether they are rich or poor and would it not be a good thing if we were to make an effort to prevent such exploitation? Whether a man is well-to-do or poor, there is no earthly reason why we should allow him to be exploited by anybody. It is very hard sometimes to know who is a member of the working classes. The only one who would not be a member would be a Minister.

Ministers might be very soon.

There will always be Ministers.

Certain people might cease to be Ministers.

What would the Blueshirts do?

You were very glad to get one in West Cork.

On the matter raised by Senator Sir John Keane, I want to say that I support him as a fellow-worker. I believe, whether people are well to do or not, it is our duty to see that they are not subjected to any exploitation. So far as the well-to-do classes are concerned, there is no reason why a landlord could not make some arrangement whereby his flat would appear to be of a superior type. Locality alone would decide in that case—not fittings or service, but simply locality. Flats in Merrion Square or in Fitzwilliam Square would be defined as well-to-do flats, but there is no reason why people living around Mountjoy Square and other areas, where the working classes reside, should not be protected. I think there is a good deal to be said for Senator Sir John Keane's amendment.

I should like to emphasise one point. You can provide a dwelling without a stick of furniture but with certain services with possibly an arbitrary value or these services may be assessed by valuers at a certain value and in that way evade the provisions of Sections 11 and 12. You might create minor tenements, which would be described as furnished flats. The general statement of the Minister that the adoption of this amendment would make the Bill unworkable—there is some proportion of sub-dwellings that would qualify as furnished flats, but against that there would be others which would not—is merely a general statement which is not treating this Bill seriously.

Even though a flat is furnished, it may be held not to be a furnished letting if the annual letting value of the furniture and other amenities is not at least one-fourth of the rent. In other words, the rent of the dwelling alone, without furniture, must be at least three-fourths of the entire rent.

Under sub-section (2), there need not be a stick of furniture. A flat might have certain services which would be valued at one-fourth of the rent without any furniture at all. The whole thing, to my mind, is a mockery.

I should like to correct Senator Sir John Keane on one point. Senator Sir John Keane told us that a furnished letting had never been defined. If the Senator reads Section 3 of the Rent Restrictions Act he will find that there is what appears to be a definition of a furnished letting.

Rather it defines what is not a furnished letting.

A definition by exclusion, but it is there anyhow.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 14.

I move amendment No. 4:—

In sub-section (2), line 41, before the word "wilfully" to insert the words "unless he withdraws or does not proceed with the application".

This is a most extraordinary section. The provisions of sub-section (2) seem to me to have been inserted without due regard to their significance. The section deals with the information which the housing authorities may require from persons making applications for grants. Sub-section (1), it will be observed, authorises the housing authority, for the purpose of enabling them to determine the rent that shall be payable by a person to whom they have let or who has applied to have let to him a house, cottage, or other accommodation provided under the Housing Acts, 1932 to 1946, and other Acts, to require such person to furnish particulars as to the number of members of such person's family residing with him, the weekly income of such person and of each of the members of his family, together with other information as regards transport and income from home assistance or State funds.

I am objecting to the provisions authorising the housing authority to seek that information from a person who has applied for a house or cottage or other accommodation. What I am mainly concerned with is the provision of sub-section (2), which sets out:—

"Any person to whom a housing authority have let or who has applied to have let to him a house, cottage or other accommodation provided under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1946, the Housing of the Working Classes Acts or the Labourers Acts and who wilfully neglects or refuses to furnish any information required by a housing authority under this section or who furnishes false information shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding five pounds."

Let me take this case. A person applies to the Dublin Corporation, the Cork Corporation or the Mayo County Council for a house. He is asked to fill in a form giving accurate information regarding all the matters specified in sub-section (1). He fills up the form and for some reason he decides subsequently to withdraw his application. The housing authority still has the right to investigate all his answers and, if they find any of them incorrect, they have the right to prosecute him and he may be fined £5, although he has not got a house and has actually withdrawn his application. I suggest that a conviction will not lie unless the person gets a house from the local authority on foot of his application. If he decides to withdraw the application my view is —and I want the House to accept it— that he should not be exposed to a prosecution or conviction whether or not his information is correct. If he has withdrawn his application, he should not be prosecuted.

I wonder does Senator Duffy realise what happens in cases of this kind? A housing authority will have numerous applications for each house and is it to be suggested that a man who writes in and says: "I withdraw my application", should have any further consideration given to him, seeing that they will have hundreds of other applicants? Is it to be suggested, if a man writes in to the housing authority withdrawing his application, that the housing authority will bother further about his application? Will it not naturally be put aside?

Senator Duffy's amendment would not, in any event, carry out his intentions. There are other words that would probably carry out his intentions better than the words he proposes. "... unless he withdraws or does not proceed with the application" is clearly unnecessary because the housing authority will be delighted to have a withdrawal of one of the numerous applications. Besides that, the form of application is generally prescribed and all the particulars have to be given in that application.

The argument advanced by Senator O'Dea seems to be this, that is does not matter what goes into the Act, it will be applied in accordance with certain preconceived notions of the local authority, which in this case means the city manager or county manager. The county council have no discretion in the matter; it is a function of the manager, and the Senator's view is that the manager has a preconceived notion and it does not matter what we put into the Bill, certain things will follow. If that is so, why not say that the county manager can do what he likes and let us stop pretending to pass legislation?

I did not suggest anything of the kind—that the manager can do what he likes. Of course, no county manager would do what he likes and nobody would ever suggest it.

I do not know how Senator Duffy wants us to phrase legislation. Obviously if the Oireachtas were to try to provide in every Act phraseology to cover every possible reasonable or unreasonable interpretation and every possible reasonable or unreasonable administration of the Act, we should get a Statute Book which would resemble nothing as much as the convolutions and involutions of an intricate piece of Celtic tracery and we should only be further tied up in knots of judicial interpretations. Apart from that, we have to accept that the housing authority will act in a reasonable way, with the commonsense of people who have to administer public affairs and even to administer their own business. If a person allows his application to lapse or formally withdraws it, I am perfectly certain the local authority will not pursue that man into the courts.

This is admittedly an executive function; it is the function of the manager to prevent abuse of the provisions of the Housing Acts and therefore it would be his duty, in certain circumstances, such as if a person got a house under false pretences, to take action against that person under this section. But I am perfectly certain that if the person did not get the house the manager would not pursue the matter further, because no harm would be done so far as the corporation or council would be concerned and so far as the other applicants for houses would be concerned. Therefore, he would not take legal proceedings in a case which the elected representatives of his authority would regard as being unnecessary and a frivolous waste of public money. So, I think we can rule out at once as a probability that a county manager or the manager for a housing authority will take action where a person has withdrawn or does not proceed with his application or allows his application to lapse. From that point of view, I think, Senator Duffy's amendment is unnecessary for the protection of the person involved. Not only is it unnecessary, but it might in certain circumstances be positively harmful, because what in effect Senator Duffy's amendment says is: "Go in; make a false statement with the assurance that, if you are found out before you get the house, then nothing will be done so far as the law is concerned and you cannot be pursued under the law." That is in fact what Senator Duffy's amendment, in the form in which he has put it down, would do. It would hold out a sort of tacit encouragement to people to go ahead and disregard the obligations of sub-section (1).

Again let us advert to sub-section (1). Sub-section (1) expressly states that the information can only be sought for the purpose of enabling a housing authority to determine the rent that shall be payable by a tenant or applicant and, if the applicant withdraws his application or does not proceed with his application, there would be no legal justification for demanding information under the section. Therefore, as I have said, I do not think that an amendment in those terms is necessary. On the contrary, I think it would be likely to do more harm than good in so far as it would make the task of the local authority more difficult by reason of the encouragement which it would hold out to people, by offering them a certain immunity, to make at the outset false statements. I am sure the Senator does not want that. We always want to feel, when an application is made for a house and certain information is given, that the information will be true in fact and will not be calculated to mislead or to deceive the housing authority, to the detriment of more deserving cases.

The difficulty about arguing this section is that the Minister does not seem to have read it.

Oh yes, I have read it.

And Senator O'Dea does not seem to have read it, or to have understood it. It is not a question of giving false information. That is not what the sub-section deals with at all. What it provides for is a punishment where the applicant wilfully neglects or refuses to furnish any information required by a housing authority under the section. If the applicant makes a request to be supplied with a cottage he gets this form which asks for particulars concerning his home, his domestic conditions. He considers that, rather than furnish the information to the local authority, which means, to an official of the county council or corporation, he will not proceed with his application. He can still be prosecuted under this section if he wilfully neglects or refuses to furnish the information asked for. This is not merely a question of prosecuting somebody who endeavours wrongfully to get a house on foot of false information or misleading information. It is a proposal to punish a person who will not get a house and who, when he sees the conditions on which the application must be made, declines to proceed with his application.

I suggest, with all respect, that the section is badly drawn. If what the Minister says was intended, then the amendment which I have suggested should be inserted. It is being resisted now only because the Minister does not want to take the Bill back to the Dáil, and for no other reason.

I thought we were discussing Senator Duffy's amendment, and the amendment has reference to one class of persons and one class of persons only, those who are applicants for houses. It is true the section covers other people. It covers people to whom the local authority has let houses. Sub-section (2) is a composite section designed to cover people who are already tenants of houses and who, being tenants of houses, wilfully—the word "wilfully" comes in there— neglect or refuse to furnish information which is necessary and which the local authority require for the purpose of enabling them to determine the rent which shall be payable by a person to whom they have let a house. As I have said, that is one class of persons and Senator Duffy's amendment is not directed to them at all.

It is directed to the other class—the person who is an applicant for a house.

And who withdraws his application.

Senator O'Dea and I addressed ourselves to the consideration of the facts as they related to the class of persons to whom Senator Duffy's amendment refers. That is the point, and there is no use in saying that Senator O'Dea and I have not read the Bill. In fact, we tried to keep ourselves strictly relevant by confining ourselves to the precise class which Senator Duffy's amendment was designed to cover.

Amendment put and declared negatived.

Question proposed: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."

Under what powers do the housing authority act at present? Surely for some time past they have had powers to get this information. Why is it necessary to give the new and wider powers?

They have had no statutory authority heretofore to secure this information.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 15 agreed to.
SECTION 16.
Question proposed: "That Section 16 stand part of the Bill."

This section provides that the Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance and subject to regulations made under this section make, out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas, to any person erecting or reconstructing or to any public utility society erecting, one or more than one house, a grant. The point I want to make is, why is it necessary to give a private individual power to erect more than one house inasmuch as the house he erects has to be for his own occupation? He has no right to get a grant unless he occupies the house. Why is it necessary to give a person power to erect more than one house?

I would like to raise this question: When grants are made to utility societies under this section, I would be anxious to know what steps are taken by the Minister—or shall I have to go to the Minister for Finance to find out what steps are being taken? —to ensure that the amount of the assistance granted by the State is passed on to the individual who gets the house built? I am speaking with a fair amount of personal experience of what has been happening in Dublin. I have seen public utility societies formed ostensibly for the purpose of enabling a number of people requiring houses to come together to form themselves into a body which, under a provision of this kind, can get State money to enable them to provide their own houses at the minimum cost. What actually happens is that the ordinary member of the society has no influence whatever over the society and has no authority to determine how the money provided by the State, or by the local authority, will be utilised by the people managing the society. The result, in one case that I have knowledge of, is that the people running the society were able to charge members of the society for whom houses were built £150, and in some cases, £250, more than the houses cost, so that in a few years the society became so wealthy and had accumulated so much money that it decided to form itself into a public liability company.

Now, that is a well-known fact. I suggest it is not an isolated case. I am speaking of it because I know all about it. I happen to know that the society was making anything up to £300 profit on the houses provided for its own members. The fact of the matter is that a person wants a house and joins a society. He takes out a £5 share, and puts the rest of the money down in loan stock. That loan stock is cancelled when he gets the house. It disappears. What we are doing under this Bill is, we are authorising the payment from public funds of very large sums of money ostensibly for the purpose of reducing the cost of houses, but, in fact, for a totally different purpose, because it will not have the effect of reducing the price of the house. It will have the effect of enabling a group of people to form a society and to keep under their own control very large sums of money as they have done in the past. I think some safeguard should be inserted in the Bill to protect the public funds from misuse of this kind. I do not know whether the Minister has adverted to what has happened in the past. There must be records in his Department—I know there are such records in his Department—of a complete disregard for the intentions of the Oireachtas when legislation of this kind is being passed.

I do not know whether I am to take it, from what Senator Duffy has said, that in general he regards these public utility societies as performing no service for their members, and that, therefore, he wishes them to be discouraged, because I think he cannot ground his argument against the section merely upon his experience of one society.

With all respect, I was not arguing against the section. I was asking what provision was being made to protect public funds.

I take it that if the Senator is suggesting that, in general, public utility societies are not operating in the interests of their members, then he must be making a case against the section. The Senator, I think, is trying to put upon the Oireachtas the responsibility of doing for the members what the members of the society should do for themselves. After all, they are the people who constitute it, and they have certain rights under their rules. They take shares, I gather, in the society, and they share in the profits. Is that not so?

I will answer the Minister later.

The Senator said that he was aware of a certain case. I am not aware of that case. It has not been brought to my attention, and I do not think it was brought to the attention of any of my predecessors. I take it that it was not a case which the Senator thought should be investigated either by my predecessor or by myself. I am concerned with the manner in which these societies, in general, work and I am told that, as an almost invariable rule, they work very satisfactorily, particularly in the country districts where they have carried out a great many housing propositions to the full satisfaction of their members, and without any excessive profits being made by anybody. The Senator seems to be aware of cases where these conditions do not obtain. If they do, I think it must have been with the connivance and consent of the members.

I understand that, as far as public utility societies are concerned, when a person becomes a member he can take shares up to a very substantial amount, and on the basis of his shareholding is entitled to participate in the profits of the society. If a person feels that it would be much more to his advantage to take a comparatively small share in the society, and to waive his right to participate in the profits, then I do not see what grumble he has against the society if it fulfils its main function which is to provide houses for its members, let us say, in general at a cost which would be lower than that at which they would be able to provide houses for themselves by their own unaided and non-co-operative effort.

I am in a difficulty in appreciating what Senator Duffy's exact position is. I asked him at the outset why he was opposed to public utility societies in general, and whether he thought they should not be encouraged. If that is his attitude, then I assume that he feels that we should not have provided them with a slightly larger grant than we are prepared to pay to private persons erecting houses for their own occupation. I think the Senator would be wrong in that. Let us start with the assumption that we wish public utility societies to provide houses at the lowest possible cost to their members, I take it, and I am told that in general they do. It is only with the generality of cases that I am concerned in putting through a measure of this sort. I would be concerned to ensure, in the administration of the measure, that the provisions of the Act in relation to public utility societies are not abused. That is not the point which arises here on the section and on the Schedule. If, therefore, I take it that the public utility societies in general do function as they are intended to function, that is to say, to try to provide houses for their members at the lowest possible cost, and to try to facilitate their members in dealing with architects, builders and other technical persons with whom the ordinary private individual would have to deal, then I think there is not anything to be said against the terms of the Schedule which, as I have said, will give a grant of £10 per house built to cover what would be the ordinary administrative expenses of the society, including in the first place, the ordinary cost of entering into an arrangement with an architect and builder and, secondly, of ensuring that the houses are being properly supervised during the period of construction. That is the purpose of the grant. I think it is justifiable, and I am therefore prepared to defend giving to public utility societies a greater grant than we give to the private individual. That is the only point which properly arises on the section.

So far as I am concerned, I am an enthusiastic supporter of the idea of public utility societies. I took some part in the formation of a public utility society and I had great expectations that it would serve a class in the community who could look nowhere else for assistance in providing themselves with houses. What I was dealing with here was the desire which I know is felt by many people that, in encouraging utility societies, we should be careful to ensure that the financial aid accorded to them under this Bill will be passed on to the individual members of the society and will not disappear down some boreen en route. I said earlier that what can happen, and what to my knowledge has happened, is that four, five, six or ten people come together and form a public utility society. They put up a certain amount of money. The maximum holding which any individual shareholder can have is £200, that is, £200 of share capital, but he can have an unlimited amount of loan stock. In the case I have in mind, no dividend whatever was paid on either loan stock or share capital, and yet the society in a couple of years accumulated £16,000, and then proceeded to build on a gigantic scale for sale to anybody, members or not. So far as I can recall, its capital eventually reached something like £100,000. In other words, £100,000 accumulated out of its building activities, and it then became a public company.

The point I am making and which the Minister has not clearly grasped is that, if this Bill is to provide public funds for a utility society, in order that that society may enable its members to obtain their own houses at the minimum cost, we should take some precaution to ensure that the money in fact serves that purpose. It does not serve that purpose if the house is going to cost as much when built by a utility society as when built by the speculative builder who is living, and living well, out of the profits he can make as a builder. That is what has happened. I remember an official in the Minister's Department telling me that he believed that certain utility societies, or at least the people running them, were making a net profit of £300 per house for themselves.

The Minister will remind us about the obligation on the members to control a society. I want to point out that normally a member comes in and takes a few shares in the utility society. He becomes a shareholder and puts into the society say £100, £150 or £250 in the form of loan stock and the society then proceeds to build his house. When the house is completed, the key is handed to the member, and his loan stock, of course, is cancelled. His share capital cannot be cancelled, but that is infinitesimal—it may be a couple of pounds—and the member concerned goes to the local authority or to an insurance company and gets the balance of the money to pay for his house. If from the local authority, the money is advanced under the Small Dwellings Act, and if from an insurance company or other finance corporation, it is advanced under certain safeguards provided by the lender. The house then becomes the property of the member of the society for whom it is built and his interest in the society ceases. It ceases to the extent that he is prepared to sell his shares to somebody else—the shares he holds in the share capital of the society—and that person, having bought the shares, comes along, puts up loan stock and gets another house, and the same process is gone through again. In the long run, two, three, four, five, six and, at most, ten people, who may in fact be the officials of the society—its architect, quantity surveyor, solicitor, chairman and secretary —are the society and nobody interferes with what they do. Nobody is concerned with anything about the society except to get a house.

The Minister will argue that we cannot correct all these defects in human nature. I agree, but it is a rather novel argument from a Minister of State. It is not the usual argument we hear from the Minister for Finance or from the Minister for Local Government. When we ask for something else, we are always reminded of the duty which is placed on a Minister of State to safeguard public funds. He must have auditors, inspectors and all kinds of safeguards to ensure that not a penny is misapplied and not a penny lost. It is, therefore, a surprise to me to listen to the Minister telling us here that the safeguarding of the money we vote is not the function of this House or the Minister's Department——

I did not say that.

——but of the stray members of utility societies. If the Minister is satisfied with that position, I am not the person to complain.

But you are complaining.

I am, but I am not going to hold the House up making complaints if the Minister in charge of this Department is satisfied to pass over this function to the ill-assorted members of utility societies. That is the position and let us face it clearly— we are abandoning our functions, transferring them over to individuals who have no interest as such in protecting public funds. They have one interest only—the interest of a person who wants a house. It is a most deplorable situation that we should be asked to pass this section in this form without any guarantee that the money we provide will be used in the interests of the person who gets the house.

I have been a member of a utility society for about 15 years and I know just as much as Senator Duffy about the working of these societies. I will say this, that the extra grant given by this House and by the Dáil, £10, to the society of which I am a member, to the extent of £8 10s. 0d., has been paid to the individual whose house has been built. That means that 30/- covers the complete expenses, and that is all that is deducted. Senator Duffy talks about the particular case he has in mind, but I am giving here the other side of it which is within my own knowledge and which has been going on for the past 15 years. What we are concerned with is that the moneys voted here by way of grants to utility societies should be properly expended. I would remind the House that there is a statutory obligation enforced on utility societies to have their accounts audited every year. Many of us who are in such societies do a very considerable amount of work, for no return at all. In the event of grants being misapplied, the public auditor will draw attention to it. Mind you, not every auditor is competent to audit those accounts. In addition to being fully qualified, he must be appointed by the Department of Industry and Commerce as a public auditor. There are only 70 of such auditors in the country and the number is kept at that. If there is any misapplication of the moneys voted here and transferred by way of housing grants to utility societies, the auditor at the end of the year will very properly draw attention to it. The former grant was £70 or £80, and it is now about £250, a very much greater sum, so the £10 is a very much smaller percentage of the total amount than it was previously. It would be utterly wrong to allow it to go from this House that there could be any misapplication of the moneys voted here by way of grants and that there is no proper check. There is a proper check and Senator Duffy should be fully aware of it and might have drawn attention to it.

The statement made now by Senator Hearne paints the other side of the picture, but I do not want the House to go away with the idea that these safeguards he speaks of give all the grounds for complacency he seems to suggest. The rules of a utility society, to my knowledge, contained a provision that the members of the committee could not vote themselves or any member of the committee any money except for special duties, the intention being that if a man had to travel on behalf of the society his out of pocket expenses and subsistence allowance would be paid, or if he performed any duty in connection with a loan he would get his expenses and probably commission. Notwithstanding that rule, I know that members of the committee voted themselves £150 each and the "special duties" they had assigned were "attending meetings of the society". I was concerned with the society and I challenged the right of the members to vote this money. They attended 12 meetings in the year and voted themselves £150 each for those attendances. The auditors, as far as I know, have never challenged that during the past 15 or 20 years.

That is not the point raised by Senator Duffy. We are dealing with the grants made available to utility societies for the erection of houses, to ensure that they will be passed on to the members.

These are not only members——

They are not. The members can buy shares or subscribe for loan instalments. I know nothing about the particular case Senator Duffy has in mind. Apparently it applies to a building society in Dublin. The utility societies in rural areas fulfil an entirely different function.

I am not making any allegation against societies. I am stating that we are voting £250 to a utility society to enable it to provide one of its own members with a house at approximately £250 less cost than if there were no grant; and believing that it is a non-profit-making source there should be another substantial cut if the profits of the speculative builder were cut out. The point I am making is that these conditions are not passed among the members in all cases and that a society, in one particular case, was able to make sufficient profit, notwithstanding their own rules, to enable them to pay this £150 a year, making £900 in all. It was a society in a small way of business, though it flourished after that and there was very much more to spend after two or three years than a mere £900. As long as that can happen, there is something wrong with the legislation, there is a gap somewhere and I want it closed. I am making no allegation against societies to which the Senator refers. I have no doubt that there are large numbers of them, particularly in small towns and rural areas, that have done great service and have enabled people to get houses who could not have got them otherwise. I accept all that and I am merely concerned now with pointing out that, if the State provides money for the purpose of enabling citizens in a particular form of organisation to get houses at a reasonable price, there is a duty imposed on us to see that the money is not running down some drain en route.

Perhaps Senator Duffy's warning is very good and I would ask the Minister to take note of it in making his regulations. It is subject to regulations that this money will be granted, and it is very important that every provision be put into the regulations to ensure, first of all, that the money will be spent on the houses and, secondly, in the case of a utility society, that the member to whom the house will be given will get the benefit of all these grants.

In a later section, where grants are given for houses erected by the utility societies for the working classes, I see the Minister has power to provide that the grant will be given only in the event of their agreeing to a particular rent being fixed on the occupier. This is left out of Section 16, but I hope the Minister will be able in some way to make regulations to provide for that. It will be very hard to draft the regulations as, after all, you do provide that, if the grant is given to a particular person, that person will reside in the house. But once he resides for a short time, what is to prevent him from selling it and getting the benefit in cash of his erection of the house? Also, in the case of a utility society, there is nothing to prevent the fixing of rents that would be too high for that member. As Senator Duffy points out, he may not get the benefit in that way. The Minister will have to draft the regulations very carefully and I am sure he will do that before he gives any grant.

What Senator Duffy says comes as news to me. I think this is all wrong, if what he says is right and if individuals who already possess houses, well-to-do people, can by means of a public utility society get a house and then sell it at the maximum market price. It is all entirely wrong that such a society should get a grant. The Minister apparently seems to say that nothing of that kind comes to his notice. But Senator Duffy is speaking with personal knowledge and I do think that there is an obligation on the Minister to see that such abuses as Senator Duffy has indicated do not happen.

The Senator, unfortunately, does not give the Minister very much opportunity of considering and examining some statements which he made here. If I had been informed of this matter earlier, I might have made a closer investigation of it.

It is important to consider to what extent Senator Duffy has telescoped the facts when he was presenting them here. My recollection is—and I am subject to correction—that Senator Duffy states that public utility societies after two or three years found themselves in possession of sufficient funds to build houses not for their members but for sale.

They formed a company.

That was later. It started as a public utility society, building houses for its members and got grants, and the promoters were able, I gather, to make profits which they did not divide among their members. They also financed this society by taking out loan stock. I gather that that also happened, and I think that the Senator said that they did not even draw the ordinary interest on the loan stock. Over a period of years they accumulated funds and entered ordinary business as speculative builders, building houses for sale and not for their own members. I may be wrong, but I understand that the society continued to amass funds and subsequently converted themselves into an ordinary public company. That is what I understood the Senator to say was the history of public utility societies. If I am correct, and if my account of the history of the public society is correct, I do not see such grave abuses as Senator Duffy said were attaching to the public utility society. Members of the public utility society instead of conserving their funds and finances might have taken the profits out and distributed them; they might have drawn the interest on the loan stock. They might have withdrawn their money and used it in another way, but they started a business quite independently of the ordinary purposes of a public utility society and in relation to that business they got no grant at all. I think that fact is of at least sufficient importance to be brought out. If they were building houses as ordinary speculative builders for sale to persons other than the members of the society they got no grant.

They got a trade loan.

We should be careful and that is why I am sorry that we did not have fuller information before this debate started. They got no grant and Senator Duffy's answer is to ride off on another side track. They got a trade loan; any person or any individual can get a trade loan. In regard to the facts, this building society was running two businesses. It was running the business of building for its own members and as a side line it was running a business of speculative building for which it got a trade loan, and therefore we may assume that having got a trade loan for the business of speculative building it was being financed by the trade loan and not, as Senator Duffy suggested at the beginning, out of the profits of the society.

I do not want to spend any more time on this question as we spent a long time on the section—in fact we spent too long on the section. Bearing in mind that Senator Duffy has already very strongly indicated to the Seanad his views on public utility societies, unless we are going to have a proposal that grants to public utility societies should not be given at all, that such grants should be abolished, it is not necessary to hold up the House any longer on this matter.

In regard to the last remark, even if the amounts set out in the Schedule as being payable to public utility societies were eliminated and they could get no grants for the erection of houses, the position which Senator Duffy objects to would remain unaltered and they could do exactly the same thing.

I do not want to pursue this matter further. I have drawn attention to what seems to me to be a matter of public interest—whether money voted by the Oireachtas for the assistance of individuals should be collared en route or not.

That is not so. That is a disgraceful remark.

I am talking of what I know something about, so there is no use shouting me down. I am not going to be shouted down. I know for a fact that persons in order to get a house paid £200 to £250 more than they should have paid and the grant did not reach them at all.

I am going to say this; I am going to draw attention to another aspect of the section. I take it, Sir, from the definitions in the section that money is provided for an ordinary person, apart from public utility societies, who erects or reconstructs a house and I take it that he would get that grant if the house is sold, if he sells it to some other individual. I want to draw attention to a practice which exists particularly in Dublin where particular people who are selling houses require the purchaser to insure the property with a particular insurance company, maybe an English company, and to do the transactions through certain firms of solicitors. Is that going to be permitted in relation to houses erected by the aid of State grants? The Minister may say: "I have no say in this matter. I cannot stop it; there must be freedom." Very well, we will then know how we stand, but I am drawing attention to what I conceive to be a great scandal, to this practice where I have a document drawn up for me, if I am going to buy a house, specifying a number of matters, one of them being that I must insure the house and maintain the insurance with a particular insurance company. This practice also obtains in certain cases where a firm of solicitors may be the agents for the estate. In the case of certain estates the person who gets the house is tied hand and foot with agents and solicitors and I am informed that in some cases the fees demanded are outrageous.

I do not know. One of the criticisms levelled at the Government is that we are alleged to tie things up in red tape. If we were to bring in a section providing one or two things—you must go to certain solicitors because they would not be tied up with the estate, or you must not go to certain solicitors because they might be tied up with the estate; or you must not buy from a certain company, or you must buy from a certain company—how does the Senator think that this or any other legislative assembly could draft legislation ensuring that, if you like, enterprising people, who can see opportunities of getting rich out of legislation, are not going to take advantage of it? A person who acquires land which is developed for building purposes needs an assortment of other people who can render specialised services and all must be paid highly. It is an undesirable sort of thing which arises out of the development of building, but will the Senator tell us how it is to be changed without introducing more red tape?

The Senator says we are not building enough houses, that we are not building quickly enough, that the Department of Local Government holds up housing schemes and that people cannot get grants sufficiently rapidly when they apply for them. That is what he says outside. Then he comes in here and his whole argument is designed to fetter, restrict, hamstring and hamper building enterprise in every possible fashion. That has been the tenor of everything the Senator has said on this Bill to-day.

My answer to the Minister is quite simple. A single clause in this Bill or the regulations made under it could declare void every restrictive clause put into the agreement. That will not hold up the building one hour.

We might declare it so void that no houses would be built.

The Minister has not answered the point I originally raised on the section, namely, the apparent inconsistency between taking power to give a grant to a person to erect more than one house and yet confining a grant to a house occupied by a person. Why give a person power to get grants for more houses than one when there is a condition of occupancy?

I think it is an omnibus clause drafted by the draftsman in the most convenient and succinct form he possibly could. It is intended to give the Minister power to do certain things subject to regulations. Normally the intention is that a person will erect only one house for his occupation and this will be covered in the regulations. I suppose the expectation is that public utility societies will erect more than one house. It would not be reasonable for a number of people to form themselves into a public utility society and confine themselves to the erection of one house. Therefore, a clause must cover the position of a person who will erect a house for a member of a public utility society who is a private individual. That is why we say "one house". It must cover the position of a person who will erect one house. The public utility society will erect houses for its members, and the clause must, therefore, cover the position of public utility societies. That is why we have "more than one house". The whole of sub-section (1) is covered by the general clause that all this will be done subject to regulation. In the regulation the Minister can make it quite clear that a person will be allowed to build only one house for his own occupation.

Perhaps I am anticipating legislation but I should like to know how occupation is ensured. We are entitled to know how the regulation is going to operate. I can understand that at first a person will be held by occupation. One cannot, however, reasonably hold a person to occupation for more than a short period because he might get out of work and be offered a job in some other part of the country, in which case the house would no longer be of use to him. Will he then be allowed—as he should be—to sell the house on the open market? How does the Minister anticipate these regulations? How is he going to see justice done and, at the same time, how is he going to prevent abuse? There is always the danger in any State control that it will fail to make intelligent exceptions. Any individual can do so but State machinery invariably fails on the question of making human and intelligent exceptions. I am entitled to an answer.

The Minister, I think, is entitled to assume that Senator Sir John Keane is familiar with the terms of the existing Housing Acts. They contain precisely this provision in almost identical terms. I have in mind the Act of 1932 and earlier Acts. This is nothing novel. I assumed Senator Sir John Keane would not have required a detailed explanation of every word and clause and phrase in this section. It is quite true that a person could, I suppose, build a house here ostensibly for his own occupation and proceed later to sell it if he were allowed to do so without any sort of restriction. That is not the position. The person who applies for this grant must first of all have the lease of the site and, if the house is built, he must be in occupation before he gets his grant. It is possible that when he goes into occupation he may wish to sell it some time afterwards. As long as that practice does not become so general that it constitutes an abuse of the Act I would be reluctant to fetter a man's right to sell his house. As Senator Sir John Keane himself has pointed out, dire necessity might arise which would force him to do so. If he were a person, say, in the employment of a public utility undertaking, or even a civil servant in the employment of the State, he might be transferred from Dublin to somewhere else and he might possibly have to purchase a house for himself in his new place of residence. Therefore unless it was quite clear that the right to sell were being used as a device to bring a person within the terms of this section and the Schedule I would be slow to fetter it. We would, however, have the power under the regulations to impose certain reasonable restrictions upon the right to sell a house which had been the subject of a grant under this section. No doubt, as I have said, reasonable restrictions would be imposed if it were seen that there was a general need. There is no use in the State's using a steam hammer to crack a nut. There is no use in setting all the apparatus of the law in motion to catch the odd person who might, without any reason beyond that of making an exceptional profit in exceptional circumstances, try to sell a house which had been the subject of a grant given under this section.

Could the Minister explain what is meant by sub-section (2) of this section?

The idea is to prevent a double grant being given in the case of the same house.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 17 and 18 agreed to.
SECTION 19.
Question proposed: "That Section 19 stand part of the Bill."

I understand that a county council cannot make a grant under this section if the house is in a town to which the Towns Improvement Act applies or any urban area. I understand also that the town commissioners or urban council or borough —a borough that is not a county borough—cannot make a grant either if the house to be erected is situated in such a town. I refer to the county health area which excludes a town. I want to know if that is correct.

Section 19 does not apply to an urban district or to a town having a town commissioner and, therefore, in such cases no grant can be made under this section. Am I correct in saying that a county council cannot make a grant if a house is going to be erected in a town in the county to which the Towns Improvement Act applies? I am merely looking for information on the point.

It is a somewhat novel point.

Perhaps I can make it a little clearer. If one goes back to the definition section the council of a county is the housing authority. It says: "A county health district (exclusive of any town having town commissioners under the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854) the council of the county in which such county health district is situate," or "a county or other borough, the corporation of such county or other borough."

It means a town having a town commissioner.

"A town having town commissioners under the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, except as respects Sections 14, 19, 20, 21 and 41 of this Act, the commissioners of such town, and, as respects the said sections, the council of the county in which such town is situate."

Your point is covered by that section.

I see that now.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 20 to 25, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 26.
Question proposed: "That Section 26 stand part of the Bill."

I seek information under Section 26. There is a limit of £3,550,000 to the total amount of grants-in-aid—I speak now subject to correction—that can be made under previous Acts and including this Act. Would the Minister give us some indication as to how much has already been paid out or is earmarked for grants already made for houses already built? I am not quite clear either as to what sub-section (2) means. The limitation there is £580,000. Is this a separate amount in addition to the £3,550,000?

I am not clear as to what actual services that £580,000 is being allocated for as distinct from the £3,550,000. I raise this point not with any intention of suggesting a further restriction in financial parsimony but rather with the intention and the belief that enough money is not being spent on housing. I do not want to widen the debate unduly but it seems to me somewhat anomalous that we should envisage an expenditure of £10,000,000 on health services while we are prepared to spend a comparatively small sum on housing. Health and housing are very closely allied and housing has a greater bearing on health than have other social services. Is the Minister satisfied with these limitations?

I think the best way to explain these financial provisions is to say that sub-section (1) should be taken as relating to all the services covered by the Act of 1932 and the £3,500,000 will be slightly more than sufficient to provide for all the applications under the Act of 1932 pending the final winding-up of these grants. Sub-section (2) provides that the duration of this Bill is for a limited period to the 1st April, 1950. One cannot say whether the sum is sufficient or excessive. If our hopes are realised and we get a freer supply of labour and materials than we are getting at the moment it will be insufficient. In that event we can then bring in a small amending Act to increase the amount provided under sub-section (2). That has been the common practice in all Housing Acts—to enlarge the limit as one goes along and as circumstances permit. From the financial point of view, there is no intrinsic merit in making an excessive provision designed to cover a situation years hence—a situation which, in fact, may never arise. While there is a global figure here of £580,000, that may be analysed and allocated as between the various sections. The figures are, of course, merely estimates and one cannot know at this stage to what extent they will be realised.

The only thing that is certain is that they do not represent what might be described as water-tight allocations as between one section and another. We anticipate, however, that owner-occupiers and public utility societies building for members will absorb about £250,000; public utility societies building for letting will absorb about £100,000; persons building for letting perhaps £20,000, £25,000 or £30,000; reconstruction grants and grants for repairs in urban areas, £100,000 to £105,000, and the retrospective portion of certain grants will probably require £100,000. These are the estimates which we have made, but the Senator will realise that they are only estimates and are made in circumstances which are not quite normal. We are not, therefore, in a position to give any further figure than that which we have given.

Am I correct in thinking that the £580,000 mentioned in sub-section (2) of Section 26 and the sum of £345,000 mentioned in sub-section (2) of Section 27 are included in the £3,000,000 odd?

I thought that was the maximum for all under this Act and the other Act.

I am not satisfied with the tenor of the Minister's reply in relation to the circumstances under which this Act will be administered. This Act will be administered under all the rigidity of Government regulations. We all know that things move very slowly under Government regulation. All kinds of difficulties continually crop up. Business is not done with the speed of ordinary private enterprise. Am I not right, that large accumulations of building material are being held in the country pending—I do not say pending this Act—the functioning of the Governmental machine?

I am afraid the situation will again arise where the Government will say that it has only got financial authority for a certain limited sum and prospective builders will have to wait until there is fresh legislation. In certain cases legislation can be fairly prompt—in other cases it is painfully slow. I want to see no restriction of any kind put on the speed at which building is carried on. If possible I want to see the rapid methods of private enterprise being introduced in local authority work. I am afraid that I am asking for more than I will ever get. Do not, however, create a position in which, owing to inadequate finance, the thing will be held up. Once applications come in from bona fide sources there should be no restrictions whatever. This matter is vitally important to the moral welfare, to the health and to the general interests of the community. I am afraid it will be held up again by Government restrictions and by the very small sums allocated. After all, they are very small sums. The Minister mentioned the sum of £20,000 for houses to let. That is a mere flea-bite and I can see that being gone in no time. The Minister said that these grants are not segregated separately. Knowing something about the slow deliberate methods of local authority procedure, I believe that the thing will be held up through want of finance, especially as the larger part of it is money to cover past expenditure. There are only half a million pounds to cover all these increased new grants. To my mind, it is totally inadequate and a disservice to the welfare of the country and the community.

The Senator is under a complete misapprehension. First of all, it is not true to say that the local authorities are held up in any way in proceeding with housing schemes by reason either of the inability of the Department of Local Government to deal with them or for want of money. In fact, except in relation to the special class of houses covered by Section 27, the local authorities are not dealt with in this Bill at all. As I was careful to emphasise on the Second Reading Stage, the Bill relates only to houses built by private persons for their own occupation or by public utility societies. So far as local authorities are concerned, therefore, they are not being held up. It is quite true that we have asked them to step up to the fullest extent they possibly can, and they are taking all the building materials they can get. It requires, however, not only materials but men to build houses and contractors who are prepared to undertake the responsibility and the obligation of building. The shortage of men rather than anything else and, up to the present, the uncertainty in regard to the supply of materials have been the principal reasons why the local authorities' housing programmes have been slow to get under way. So far as the sum mentioned in this Bill is concerned, I think it is a considerable sum. I am perfectly certain that, when the Minister for Finance comes here with his Appropriation Bill, Senator Sir John Keane will also think that it is a quite considerable sum. It is not merely a considerable sum but, as I have said, it does not represent the last word. If things go more rapidly than we anticipate at the moment, then no doubt we shall have additional financial provision made.

There is one point on which I should like to correct the Senator. I mentioned a sum of £25,000 or £30,000 for persons building houses for letting. That only represents the amount necessary to cover two instalments. If the Senator will turn to the Fourth Schedule, he will see that these grants are being paid in instalments spread over a ten years' period, and that sum in fact only represents about one-fifth of the total amount.

Question put and agreed to.
Business suspended at 6.5 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.
SECTION 27.
Question proposed: "That Section 27 stand part of the Bill."

I should like the Minister to explain exactly how these houses for special classes differ from what we call ordinary corporation houses or why the need could not have been met by making the corporation set aside a certain number of their houses for these special classes which I think are most deserving. I think the idea is a good one but I do not quite see the object of doing it in a different way—doing it by means of grants instead of through the ordinary machinery of local authority housing.

There are perhaps three reasons why it was decided that this was the best way to proceed to deal with this problem. First of all, the housing authorities in most of the county boroughs and large towns have a particularly acute problem to solve in dealing with slum areas and congested areas in their districts and they have set up a special section in their organisation for dealing with this, which works in a rather specialised way. All the grants which have been appropriated heretofore under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts for that special purpose have proceeded on the assumption that none of the tenants of ordinary corporation houses could afford to pay an economic rent. The houses are built more or less on approved and standardised plans for the accommodation of families where the segregation of the sexes is required. There is such a very long waiting list of persons with large families, persons coming within the special class of families where one or more of the members may be suffering from tuberculosis, families which have been living in condemned houses and so on, that it would have been, I think, unjust to have disregarded their particular claims under the existing provisions of the Housing Acts and have required the corporation to set aside houses which as I have said are primarily designed to accommodate families of five, six or seven where the segregation of the sexes is required and where the assumption is that those who are going to live in them cannot afford to pay an economic rent.

In the case of young married couples, I think we can assume that at the outset at any rate, provided the man is in reasonably constant employment, provided he has such a job as would justify him, in prudence, in marrying, the question of providing a house at a rent less than the economic rent does not in general arise. Therefore some of the houses will not be subsidised at all and, in cases where a subsidy is given, it will not be on anything like the same scale as is given in the case of ordinary houses built under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts.

Secondly the houses need not be so large. They are built primarily for young people with no children. It is not felt that it is necessary, in present circumstances particularly, to provide these people with large houses which might be more than a woman with a young family or a baby to look after, could comfortably manage. Apart altogether from that, the supply of building materials being restricted, we have got to try to reduce the demand on the common pool of building materials and labour.

The next point is that these houses are designed for young people entering on married life and it was felt perhaps that we should, if we could, having due regard to the other considerations, such as the burden which might be imposed on the State in relation to subsidies and the burden which might be placed on tenants in regard to non-subsidised houses, design them on the most modern lines—that is to say that they would be provided with first-class kitchens, first-class bathrooms and generally with the amenities which attach to very good houses and which would enable these houses to be conveniently, easily and economically run.

In fact the idea was to give these people starting married life every possible support we could while at the same time not relieving them unduly— in fact not relieving them at all in some cases—of the ordinary obligations and responsibilities which attach to the foundation of a family and which should normally belong to the head of the family. For that reason we decided these houses should be special class houses. Another way in which they differ from the ordinary houses is that the Minister takes power under this section to require these houses to be constructed. He proposes that the general planning and design of the houses should set a higher standard than we have been able to adopt in relation to houses which have been built under the various Housing Acts.

These are three or four of the reasons which determined us to proceed in this way. It is a highly experimental approach to this problem. I do not know whether it will be successful. We are trying to break new ground. The scheme has some advantages. It will be a good thing if we can get people entering on married life to assume the responsibility of paying an economic rent, and of not being under any definite obligation to the community. If they can stand on their own feet, that creates a good psychological approach on their part to future problems. Next, you can have a reasonably expeditious turnover on these houses. They are small; they are not intended to be the last habitation of these families; they are houses in which we hope they will be able to adjust themselves to the various problems of married life.

This will give them an opportunity, when they can get a house, of marrying earlier than they otherwise might and starting life in a decent home in good surroundings. It will give them five years in which they can find alternative accommodation. At the end of five years we hope that they will be in a position to pay an economic rent for a house provided under the ordinary Housing Acts, and indeed that those who are in a better position at the end of that period may be able to provide themselves with accommodation independently of the local authorities.

The general idea is to make it possible for people, who normally could afford to marry but who cannot get a house, to marry. We are also trying to cater for a second class of person, the person who, while not able to pay the full economic rent of a house such as we have in mind, will nevertheless be able to pay a substantial rent, a rent perhaps higher than the generality of those who occupy local authority houses can afford to pay or are called upon to pay.

These are the general principles upon which we proceeded. The houses will contain two bedrooms and we hope we will be able to provide them with modern up-to-date kitchens, bathrooms and the other amenities that attach to a good house. We hope they will become model homes. That is the general theory upon which we proceeded.

The houses will be of two classes. There will be a Class A house which we anticipate will let at about 30/- or thereabouts per week—perhaps a little more or less. That will depend on the cost of the house, but that type of house will be let at an economic rent. Then there will be the Class B house which will be let at about 20/- per week. It is not intended that these houses should be occupied by the same tenants for a period longer than five years. At the end of that period we think those people should either be provided for by the local authority with a house built under the Housing Acts or be able to secure alternative accommodation themselves.

This plan will be run for at least five years and if it is successful and justifies itself it will probably be continued. I should like to emphasise that this is an entirely experimental approach to the problem. We do not know whether it will work out successfully, but we hope it will. If it does, it will meet what is a very crying need in our cities and larger towns.

I am very interested in this section. The Minister referred to the special classes whose needs are to be considered. I would like to mention other classes of the community whose needs ought to be considered, people like school inspectors and inspectors of taxes who have to be moved from time to time; they are left scarcely more than five years in any place. There are about 14 or 15 people of that type in Galway and they have been separated from their families for four or five years. It ought to be possible under some Housing Act or scheme to provide houses for that class of person. I think the Government should do that. Those people do not come under this type of housing scheme and I would like the Minister to consider their position.

I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said and I think this is a very commendable experiment. As I understand it, the local authority will build and own the houses and there will be no subsidy except a grant attaching to the houses. There will be an attempt made to get an economic rent. There must be somebody to choose the tenants and deal with the conditions of occupation and that is the reason the housing authority is entrusted with that duty.

I foresee considerable difficulty in getting people to leave these houses. If they have large families that overflow the two rooms, that will be all right, but, if they have small families, I believe there will be considerable difficulty in getting them out. I do not know if the Minister is satisfied that he will be able to get them out. I hope the houses under this scheme will be given a high priority because I know many people will be pressing their claims for them.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 28 to 34, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 35.
Question proposed: "That Section 35 stand part of the Bill."

What is the point of putting in the last clause of sub-section (2)? Surely a herdsman is a person normally engaged in doing agricultural work. Surely paragraph (c) of sub-section (2) is already covered by paragraph (a).

It is in because we are following the precedent which has been laid down in all other Acts. If we were to amend it somebody might say: "Herdsmen are in a definite category in previous Acts and they are not included in this."

That is sound drafting until you consolidate but it appears queer.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 36.
Question proposed: "That Section 36 stand part of the Bill."

In this section, at line 54—payment of interest—it is provided that the local authority may go in without having paid the compensation money or without having lodged it in court, as the case may be, and it provides that in the event of the local authority so entering on possession, the local authority must pay interest from the date. At what rate and who determines the rate?

It is in the Bill.

I have tried to find it and I could not.

If the Senator will turn to Section 31 he will see:—

"Article 24 of the Second Schedule to the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, is hereby amended by the substitution therein of £3per centum per annum for £5 per centum per annum as the rate of interest....”

That covers compensation and delay?

I did not understand the reference.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 37.
Question proposed: "That Section 37 stand part of the Bill."

May I draw attention to the provisions of sub-section (4) of this section? It provides that money borrowed under this section shall not be reckoned as part of the total debt of a council of a county for the purpose of the Adaptation of Enactments Act. That question arises very frequently, particularly in Bills brought in by the Minister for Local Government, and I have been wondering what is the purpose of maintaining in force the Adaptation of Enactments Act, or these provisions of the Adaptation of Enactments Act, in view of the fact that almost every Bill which the Minister introduces and which provides for the expenditure of money exempts the moneys raised under that Bill from the provisions of the Adaptation of Enactments Act. My recollection is that the provision referred to here limits the borrowing power of a local authority to something like twice its rating powers. There is a provision by which borrowing power is limited by the power of the local authority to raise rates and the sum of the rates so raised. The provision concerned may have had some validity in the beginning. It appears to have no validity now and is in fact worthless so long as a Minister can insert in every one of these Bills referring to housing, sanitation, public health a provision saying that the money raised under the particular Bill will not be taken into account when calculating the amount that may be borrowed under the Adaptation of Enactments Act. My suggestion is that that provision of the Adaptation of Enactments Act should go.

It has not gone yet and, until it goes, we have to include provisions to this effect in a Bill where we think it is desirable they should be included. The position is—I think it was referred to in the memorandum which was circulated either with the Local Government Bill of 1946 or with the Expiring Laws Bill—I forget which —that a new Bill regulating borrowing by local authorities is under consideration and, until that Bill has been before the Oireachtas and has been enacted, we have to include provisions of this sort in every Bill dealing with the expenditure of money where we think these provisions are desirable.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 38 to 40, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 41.
Question proposed: "That Section 41 stand part of the Bill."

I should like to draw attention to the fact that Section 201 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, makes certain provisions in relation to the placing of contracts. The provisions are divided into two parts. First, there is a provision in relation to contracts the amount of which does not exceed £50. There is a further provision in relation to contracts the amount of which exceeds £100. In regard to the first part, Section 201 requires that every such contract made by a local authority shall be in writing and shall be sealed with the common seal of the authority. Secondly, it provides that every such contract shall specify the work, materials, matters or things to be furnished, had or done and the price to be paid and the time of times within which the contract is to be performed. A third provision, relating also to similar contracts, provides that an estimate shall be obtained in writing of the probable expense of executing the work, and so on.

In regard to contracts the amount of which exceeds £100, Section 201, to which I have referred, provides that before the contract is entered into there shall be an advertisement—ten days, in fact, before the contract is made—and provision is made in regard to the form of the advertisement and the matters to be done following from it. Lastly, it is provided that every contract entered into by a sanitary authority, in conformity with the provisions of this section and duly executed by the several parties thereto, shall be binding on the authority by whom the seal is executed and their successors, and so on.

Now we come to Section 41 of this Bill. This section provides that the Minister may exempt a housing authority from compliance with all or any of these provisions at his discretion, that is to say, so far as the matters concerned are related to the powers of the local authority, and the performance of their duties under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts or the Labourers Acts.

We have already discovered that the housing authority referred to here is the county manager or the city manager, as the case may be, and the provision in this section is that the Minister may cancel the whole of the provisions of Section 201 of the Act of 1878 to which I have referred, so that a county manager or city manager is no longer required to advertise a contract, irrespective of its amount, or he is no longer obliged to get quotations or specifications or anything else. The only safeguard we have is an assurance from the Minister that he will not exercise his powers or that, if they are to be exercised at all, they will be exercised under certain limitations and qualifications.

It seems to me that by the method adopted here, the method of legislation by reference, we are getting to the stage where both Houses of the Oireachtas will be deprived of any control whatever over the administrative acts of Government Departments or deprived of any power of review over the relations which exist between themselves and permanent officials appointed by the Local Appointments Commission and exercising all the functions of a local authority. I am personally distressed that this thing should be permitted and, if the members of this House think seriously about the matter, they will agree with me that Section 41 should not be written into this Bill. If the Minister insists, and if the majority of this House uphold his determination to have this authority conferred upon him, the members of this House can make up their minds that, to all intents and purposes, their continued influence over the legislation that is enacted in this country is of very little account indeed.

Having listened to several speeches from Senator Duffy on this Bill, I thought that my capacity for surprise had been exhausted, but I find that I was entirely mistaken. This provision is introduced into the Bill on the basis of a recommendation made by the Dublin Housing Inquiry Committee which gave very great weight, indeed, to the case which had been made by the representatives of various trade unions and of the Labour Party on the corporation to the effect that previous housing schemes undertaken and carried out by direct labour had been rendered uneconomic because of the manner in which the corporation as a public authority had been tied up by the provisions of Section 201 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878. Among those who gave evidence at that inquiry was L. J. Duffy, Esquire.

Would the Minister look up the evidence? It would be very interesting if he were to do so now.

Are we not bad enough without that?

May I take it that Senator Duffy says he dissented from the evidence which was given on behalf of his Party by other witnesses?

No witness on behalf of the Labour Party gave any evidence at all.

I see that a former —and now unhappily deceased—distinguished and forcible member of the Labour Party gave evidence there in the person of the late Mr. James Larkin, a member of the housing committee.

I repeat that no evidence was given on behalf of that Party. I did not give evidence on behalf of it. I gave evidence in my personal capacity in relation to the manner in which local authorities are rooked by the financial authority from whom they borrow money.

I do not know what is the precise policy, in relation to housing, of the Party to which Senator Duffy belongs, but I understood that one of the planks in the Labour Party's programme was that the housing authorities ought to be facilitated in the carrying out, by direct labour, of their housing scheme programme. I may be wrong in that, but I assumed that was one of the fundamentals in the Labour Party's programme.

But in any event, take it for what it is, people who are commonly regarded as being in a position to express the views of workers and of the organisations which represent them, urged on the members of the committee of inquiry, that the Dublin Corporation should be allowed to undertake an experimental housing scheme by direct labour under much freer conditions than they had been able to carry out such schemes heretofore. It is as a direct consequence of that recommendation, that this proposal is embodied in the Bill. I draw the Senator's attention to the fact that it is a fairly restricted proposal. The intention of the section, at any rate, is that it will relate only to purchases. The Senator has pointed out that, under the law as it stands, if a housing authority, like the Dublin Corporation, was carrying out a large scheme, such as the Ellenfield scheme, and wanted to buy more than £100 worth of material they had solemnly to advertise for it and enter into a contract. They had to go through all these formalities in order to possess themselves of more than £100 worth of material for a scheme probably costing £250,000.

That is how the direct labour schemes, undertaken by local authorities under laws that now exist, were carried out and I think that is one of the principal reasons why these schemes compared so unfavourably with those undertaken by the ordinary private builder. The position is, that the housing problem is so acute, and the difficulty of securing contracts has been such, that we have decided, as a matter of general policy, that as long as that situation lasts we are going to urge local authorities to build houses for themselves if they can get anybody to build them, and that, in order that these houses should be built economically, we are going to release them, subject, of course, to conditions, from the terms of Section 201 of the Act of 1878. With that object in view, and bearing in mind that the release is going to be hedged round by conditions which will safeguard it against abuse I do not see why Senator Duffy should have felt called upon to put down this amendment. As I have said, I thought that my capacity for surprise had been exhausted, but when I saw this amendment I rubbed my eyes and said: "Surely, that is not the same Senator who functions outside drafting programmes for the Labour Party in which he urges that everything should be socialised either by the State or by the local authority."

I wonder whether anybody in this House feels happy about the reply to which we have just listened. It seems to me that it contains more ballyhoo and more dodging of the real issues than any pronouncement that I have ever listened to, and I have heard some foolish ones. The Minister starts off by drawing attention to a report which was prepared by the Dublin Housing Committee. May I say, in passing, that the report refers only to Dublin? That committee of inquiry was concerned with Dublin, only, and the report takes no account of conditions in rural Ireland. It makes no record of the conditions outside of Dublin.

The Minister has interpolated the view that I gave evidence in support of this proposal. Actually, I attended before the committee in a personal capacity. I made it perfectly clear that I was there in my personal capacity. I suggested to the committee that, if housing were to be done rapidly and on such a basis as to enable the ordinary workman to occupy a house in Dublin, then we had to get rid of the racketeering that went on in the financial world. I drew attention to practices elsewhere, the main purport of which was to ensure that the principal item of expenditure involved in rent was not interest. I take it that if the Minister had been diligent, before referring to this report, in looking up the evidence he would have seen what exactly the witness, to whom he has referred, said. I do not know whether Mr. James Larkin, the chairman of the Housing Committee of the Dublin Corporation, adverted to this fact at all. There has been no quotation from the evidence to show that he did, but assuming that I gave evidence in support of this section, assuming that Mr. Larkin gave evidence in support of it and assuming that 20 other people gave evidence, is that a good reason for putting this section in the Bill without one word of justification?

We are told that the local authorities are held up, are embarrassed, because they have to put their contracts in writing. The first provision of sub-section (1) of Section 201 of the Act of 1878 says that if the contract is for an amount over £50, it must be in writing. Is that embarrassing, and, if it is, to whom? It was not considered embarrassing to local authorities while they were doing their own contract work, but it is embarrassing now when officials in close contact with the Minister's Department and subservient to that Department are making these contracts. Under the Act of 1878, if a contract is for an amount exceeding £100, there must be tenders. Is there anything seriously wrong with that? Is there anything seriously wrong with a requirement that local authorities should advertise their contracts? It must be remembered that this Bill does not relieve them of the obligation merely in respect of small contracts. It relieves them of the obligation to advertise all contracts—even contracts of £50,000—in relation to housing.

One of the complaints made by the Minister's Department against the committee of Cork Street Hospital was the failure to advertise certain contracts—they were being handed around to friends of members of the committee was the allegation—but now the thing is perfectly all right and something we should feel proud of because it is the county manager or city manager who is being entitled to give out a contract for £50,000 or £100,000 without the obligation to have the contract advertised, or in writing. If the members of the House feel they can accept that point of view, it seems to me that there is not very much use in discussing the Bill or bothering very much about an amendment because the Minister's attitude is: "You have a proposal before you," and he jokes with the House rather than gives any reason why it should be retained.

Question put and declared carried.
Sections 42 to 45, inclusive, Schedules and Title agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining stages today.
Bill received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

There is one point which I wish to ask the Minister to consider with sympathy. The administration of this Bill, not being a reserved service, is largely in the hands of the Minister's Department and the departments of the county and city managers. With the very great increase in corporation housing, there is a great need for using modern methods in relation to rent collection. Rent collection can be carried out and, I understand, is carried out, largely in a sort of routinist spirit, rather in the fashion of the policeman, and, if my information is correct, the rent collecting service of the Dublin Corporation is largely of that character. It is, in fact —the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—a vocation which passes from father to son, and so long as the rents are collected punctually, the authority—in this case, the manager—considers the rent collectors good and is satisfied; but I can assure the Minister that modern rent collecting has assumed a totally different form.

It is becoming a very highly skilled social service. Out of the organisation or the idea originally founded by Octavia Hill has grown the provision of estate managers who go through a considerable training in knowledge of building, social service and all the questions attached to dealing with housing matters. The modern rent collector is essentially a person, and more often than not a woman, with human sympathies and knowledge of the family circumstances and all that attaches to the family life of the tenants. In order to get the full social value out of housing and also get the most up-to-date information on social work, it is necessary that it be approached in that spirit of understanding and sympathy, and I hope the Minister will give, and will get the housing authorities to give, a new approach to this question of rent collecting, will inquire into the methods now adopted in relation to these advanced social services, will make rent collecting a great deal more than the mere getting of the pound of flesh represented by the rent, will make it a human service in which the circumstances of the family will be taken account of and the confidence of the tenants gained by the rent collector, so that generally the best interests of all the tenants will be considered and a complete social service provided through this medium of rent collecting.

This is an instance of a Bill being passed through both Houses without any effort to meet reasonable criticism. I do not think the Bill was given very much consideration in the Dáil—it may have—but it certainly received no consideration at all in this House. We have spent four hours pointing out to the Minister what some of us conceive to be serious blemishes, but that has made no impression on him. I suspect that he is influenced by the fact that an election is pending, that Dáil Éireann is in recess, and he desires that Dáil Éireann should not be recalled to consider any amendment which might be made by this House. There is no other explanation for the attitude he has taken. His arguments were unconvincing; I think many of them were amusing and amused many members of the House. They certainly did not satisfy any Senator that the criticisms offered in relation to different aspects of the Bill were reasonably or fairly met. The Minister's best effort was to tell us that, if those defects which we point out are discovered when the Bill is in operation, there will be an amending Bill. Surely that is one of the most untenable situations the Minister could adopt. Is it not obvious that the purpose of this House is to consider legislation which comes before it, to examine it carefully and, if the wisdom of the House discovers defects, the machinery of the House should be availed of to amend them?

We have had other experiences of this kind. We have had other Bills at various times which were criticised because of certain defects which, in our judgment, were revealed by the consideration of the measures in question. Ministers, because they are in a hurry, because they want to get the House adjourned in the summer or before Christmas, will not accept proposals for amendment, with the result that we take up a daily or evening paper and read of a judge criticising both Houses for slovenly legislation. The truth of the matter is that the Houses are not responsible except in so far as the members acquiesce in the Minister's attitude. They are not responsible for the slovenly manner in which legislation is enacted. On two occasions recently, this has occurred; in one case a Circuit Court judge and in the other a High Court judge. One of the most competent judges on the High Court Bench criticised vehemently the manner in which certain legislation was passed through these Houses in the last 12 months. In the case of the Circuit Court judge, the suggestion of the court was that the person who drafted the Bill should be brought before him to explain it.

I want to make a protest, so far as I am personally concerned, in regard to this attitude towards legislation. If the legislation is to be effective, if it is to do what the Oireachtas intends it should do, if it is not to bring Parliament into contempt, it should be considered with whatever skill and whatever patience we possess. That has not been the case in relation to this Bill. I make that comment, regarding those of us who have been criticising the Bill concerned, so that the world at large may know that we are dissatisfied with the manner in which the Bill has passed through the House.

I wonder if the Senator is correct in saying that a High Court judge criticised the manner in which legislation passed through both Houses.

No, the character of the legislation.

The drafting.

I wonder if the Senator is right in saying that a Circuit Court judge stated that the draftsman ought to be brought before him. The judge must know that no one can be brought before a judge to construe the wording of an Act. The judge must construe it himself.

That was in the papers.

The more I listen to him, the more Senator Duffy amazes me. If there were an Eighth Wonder of the World, the Senator would be entitled to claim that he fulfilled the specification.

We would have to add a ninth.

Has Senator Hayes ambitions? Senator Duffy put down five amendments, after mature consideration, having the whole of Christmas and the New Year to consider the terms of this Bill. I think it is not unfair to say that, when he heard those five discussed here, he withdrew them with alacrity.

No, some of them were defeated.

Defeated without a division.

The Minister's friends will not support me in a division, he knows.

The Minister's friends know what a good Bill this is and they are prepared to support it. The Senator said also that this Bill did not receive very much attention in the other House. I wish the Senator were sitting in my place during the period when I was piloting the Bill through—he would know how much attention it received and how keenly it was debated there. In any event, here are the Dáil Reports for the 26th and 27th November and the greater part of them is occupied with the debate on the Second Stage of the Bill. Here are the Dáil Reports for the 4th, 10th and 11th December and the greater part of those Reports is taken up with the debates on the Committee Stage of the Bill. So keenly was this Bill discussed and so searchingly was it examined that we recommitted the Bill on the Report Stage in order to permit the consideration of certain amendments which had been formulated as a result of the discussion on the Committee Stage. Some of these amendments were to meet points of view which had been raised by members of the Opposition, including members of the Senator's own Party.

After all, it is playing a little on public credulity to expect the newspaper readers to-morrow morning to believe that a Bill which received so much attention in the other House, which was amended in the other House to meet criticism which had been raised there and also to meet the pleas which had been made there, was passed by either House of the Oireachtas without having received full and due consideration.

Question put and agreed to.
Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil without amendment.
Top
Share