Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1957

Vol. 48 No. 7

Appropriation Bill, 1957—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Dr. Ryan)

The Appropriation Bill is a recurrent annual measure and follows stereotyped lines. The present Bill does four things:—

1. It authorises the issue from the Central Fund of a balance for 1956-57 which was granted too late to enable it to be covered by the Central Fund Act, 1957; 2, it authorises the issue from the Central Fund of the balance of the amount granted for Supply Services for 1957-58 (i.e., the full amount less that already authorised by the Central Fund Act, 1957); 3, it empowers the Minister for Finance to borrow up to the limit of the issues provided for in (1) and (2); and 4, it appropriates to the several Supply Services the sums granted by the Dáil since the Appropriation Act of 1956.

The explanation of the individual sections and schedules of the Bill is as follows:—

Section 1 authorises the issue of £2,480,109 from the Central Fund to cover 12 Supplementary Estimates for 1956-57 which were taken too late to enable them to be covered by the Central Fund Act, 1957. The Supplementary Estimates in question were:

	£
Public Works and Buildings	25,500
Rates on Government Property	23,000
Universities and Colleges	20,000
Valuation Office	10
Agriculture (2nd)	490,000
Local Government	40,000
Transport and Marine (2nd)	300,000
External Affairs	10
International Co-operation	10
Social Insurance	1,581,000
Health	10
Repayments to Contingency Fund	569
	2,480,109

Section 2 authorises the issue of £69,422,620 from the Central Fund, thus supplementing the issue of £37,300,000 already authorised by the Central Fund Act, 1957, and bringing the total of authorised issues to £106,722,620. The sum of £106,722,620 is arrived at as follows. The original total for Supply Services shown in the Estimates Volume was £112,570,620. This is reduced by £6,374,000 principally by the elimination of the food subsidies and also by a small elimination relating to the Irish News Agency. There are supplementaries added— £494,000 for secondary education in connection with secondary teachers and two Supplementary Estimates recently passed by the Dáil, one dealing with coast erosion and the other with the Abbey Theatre. That gives us £106,722,620.

Section 3 authorises the Minister for Finance to borrow up to £71,902,729, being the total of the amounts authorised by Sections 1 and 2 to be issued out of the Central Fund. The Minister is already authorised by the Central Fund Act, 1957, to borrow up to the limit of the sum authorised by the Act to be issued from the Central Fund for 1957-58, £37,300,000.

I was asked in the other House about the Bank of Ireland being mentioned. The object of the provision about the Bank of Ireland is not to confer any special privilege upon that bank but to place it in the same position in the matter of lending to the Government as other banks. Under Section XI of an old Statute passed in 1781, under which the Bank of Ireland was established, the bank is liable to forfeit any moneys advanced or loaned by it to the Government, unless the advance or loan is specifically authorised by Parliament.

Section 4 appropriates these moneys to the various Departments. Schedule A gives particulars of the issues out of the Central Fund authorised by the Central Fund Act, 1957, and the present Bill. Schedule B sets out in detail the specific services to which the sums granted are to be appropriated and so forms the basis of the audit of the Appropriation Accounts carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

Professor Hayes

Is dócha gurab é an tslí is fearr chun túirt faoin mBille seo ná iarracht a dhéanamh chun a fháil amach na neithe go bhfuiltear ar aon aigne mar gheall orthu agus féachaint cad is féidir a dhéanamh mar gheall orthu. Deighleálann an Bille seo le beagnach gach gné de chursaí an Rialtais. Tá ann, leis, tuarastal an Taoisigh.

There is a school of thought which maintains that in debate one should, first of all, seek points of agreement rather than points of difference. As far as this Bill is concerned, one could go to very great lengths because practically every aspect of Government administration and policy may be opened up under it. On that basis, I can say that, whatever about our balance of payments position and whatever about the opinions expressed this evening by two economists, Senator O'Brien and Senator O'Donovan, on our balance of payments and our credit-worthiness generally, there is at least agreement on one subject. Everybody is agreed that the total sum involved in this Bill is too high and that, when combined with the sum paid in local rates by practically the same people—in fact, by identically the same people—the sum is altogether intolerable and cannot be allowed to continue. People are unanimous on that.

Having stated that, then, the usual political approach is to endeavour to apportion blame for the situation. But that is not a very rewarding process. It is, of course, true that from the moment the Minister's Party came into office in 1932 their policy was to increase expenditure and thereby increase taxation and, in their 20 years of experience in office, they have consistently increased expenditure. Be that as it may, there the situation is; and, despite all the talk by different people at different times of plans to solve the problems that exist in relation to this sum of money, there does in fact appear to be no plan at all.

One could do any one of three things, or, perhaps best of all, one could do all three: one could decrease the amount; one could get better value for the money spent; or one could increase production in both agriculture and industry to enable these commitments to be met. The best solution of all would be a combination of all three, but unfortunately there does not appear to be any sign that we can do all three or, indeed, that we can do any one of them.

I belong to a generation, almost the same generation as the Minister, which can remember people who had experienced the land war and evictions. I belong to a generation of Sinn Féiners. I met the Minister for the first time, when I was a very recent university graduate and the Minister was beginning his career, at an entrance to University College, Dublin. I was a Sinn Féiner and I had high hopes of what would be accomplished when Irish institutions of State were set up. They were set up and that, I think, was the first political victory we ever achieved.

Great things were promised and high hopes were entertained. It is fair to say now that the promises have not been fulfilled and a great many of the hopes have been dashed, with a resultant disillusionment which is, perhaps, as much responsible as economic or financial causes for our present situation. I know, of course, that our political system is not a panacea. As Senator O'Brien said this evening, it is not a magic wand with which to solve our problems. There are difficult problems confronting more countries than ours. World conditions press upon us and we cannot plan for ourselves alone.

The Bill we had this afternoon, the Bretton Woods Agreements Bill, illustrates the necessity for entering into agreement on economic and financial matters with other countries. The Minister and all of us here are confronted with things like the European Common Market and the general problem of a European co-operation in which we must play a part. Senator O'Brien did stress one point. The words "Sinn Féin" remind me of it. While there are problems created outside of ourselves, we cannot get any assistance, or much assistance, from outside. We shall have now and in the future to go back to the fundamentals of the old Sinn Féin policy: we must work for our own salvation ourselves, since we have nobody else on whom to depend. One recognises all the difficulties.

It is fair to say that, all allowance made, nobody in this country to-day, looking at this Bill, looking at the sum of money involved and remembering that it is only part of the expense of running the State and local bodies, could view with satisfaction our present expenditure and our present situation. Our financial situation, our economic situation and, above all, our expenditure of money and our experience of Government have not kept alive in any degree the national spirit of our people. The Minister said, in relation to another Bill, that he was not either an economist or a financier. Neither am I, but I can see nevertheless what our problems are. In so far as agricultural production is concerned, we have not kept pace with other countries in a position similar to ours. Emigration, which we hoped to solve, has not been solved, and has become an even more pressing problem. Unemployment has not been solved. Our marriage rate has not improved. In regard to Partition, the restoration of the Irish language and the fostering of a national spirit, we have not made anything like the progress that we once thought we might make.

Our rural population is decreasing. That is true of every country to-day, but the rural population in other countries are going into the cities and towns of their own country. Here, our rural population are going into the cities and towns of other States. We have thousands of unemployed and a high rate of emigration and despite what Senator O'Brien said this evening, it does appear that emigration may well prove fatal to our very existence as a separate entity, not to mention our existence as a separate entity enjoying our own traditions and improving upon them.

There are problems we persistently refuse to face. I will give one example. We had great hopes when the State was established of the results of education under Irish direction. We endeavoured to plan—I planned myself— in the beginning, 35 years ago, to revive the Irish language through the schools. We are all convinced now, I think, that that is something which cannot be done—there is expenditure, of course, in this measure for that purpose—that in spite of enthusiasm, in spite of devoted labour on the part of teachers, in spite of assistance of various kinds, the schools, certainly alone, cannot do the job that we ask them to do. Neither, indeed, can the Government do it and it is not clear that the people themselves want to do it.

One of the results is that, apart from the discouragement and disillusionment, the quest for the Irish language enters into our whole educational system. We have had 35 years' experience of certain measures but we have never set out, as I have often advocated, to review the situation. We have never set out to see what our efforts have produced, to look at our successes and our failures, to see what new steps we ought to take or what old methods we ought to abandon. It is true, no matter how the circumstances are concealed and no matter how people approach the matter by the side, that there can be no advance or no reorganisation on the educational front here until some such inquiry as I have mentioned is made into the position of Irish in our schools. I have made this point before and I do not want to elaborate upon it now, but I have never asked for what I would call a cold inquiry by people who have no enthusiasm and have no interest. What I would like to see is people with a knowledge of the Irish language, a feeling for it, a feeling for what it means and a knowledge of education investigate this matter and tell us if there is anything that we can do that we have not been doing and tell us what we have been doing that may not be correct.

I feel, too, that, apart from economics and finance, the causes of our trouble lie in a lack of national spirit. Young people and, indeed, in many cases old people, leave the country now without a qualm of regret. They leave what we would regard as fairly good positions in this country to pursue what they believe, sometimes wrongly I believe, will be a better opportunity elsewhere. We surely must come to the conclusion here that we cannot provide for our people either employment or social services of as high a standard as those provided elsewhere, in Canada, or even in Britain, and that our only hope—and apparently we have been a complete failure in it—is to inspire a love of the country in people, to make people feel that they are Irish. There was hardly ever a time when people had less feeling of that kind and more cynicism about national ideals.

As a matter of fact, not only is that our position but we find now that some of the money in this Bill will have to go to the building, the staffing and the maintenance of internment camps for people who challenge the very right and existence of the State, who challenge our right to legislate here. It was done before in different circumstances with the same kind of specious arguments as are being put forward now and it may very well be one of the facets of our frustration and of our failure to teach either the Irish language or Irish history as they ought to be taught. In any event, it is a discouraging prospect after 35 years that that situation should confront us again.

Senator O'Brien told us that we do not lack advice, that we lack the moral courage to take the right advice and put it into operation. It may be difficult in a democracy to get the right things done if they happen to be unpopular things. Clearly, although that is so, the situation which we have reached now has all the attributes of a war, a war for the very life of this people as a separate entity, a deathlike struggle, it appears to be, a kind of war of attrition, in which our life blood is ebbing away.

By and large, it seems to me that we have no plan to deal with that situation. It certainly cannot be dealt with by plans and counter-plans, by speeches and counter-speeches. It can be dealt with only by genuine co-operation and by a pooling of effort to deal with the situation which is, it seems to me, desperate. Something else is necessary, it seems to me, rather than merely economic measures, something which will capture the people of this country as they were captured before, which will inspire them with love of the country and with a desire to serve it.

The generation that set up this State by a very great variety of effort are passing away and they are leaving behind them, it seems to me, this enormous sum of money to be spent without any solution of our problems and, as well as that, a legacy of discord and bitterness which has contributed to our lack at the present moment of national spirit.

I do not think that our present attitudes politically will solve our problems. I do not know whether we are big enough, conscientious enough or Irish enough to adopt another attitude but it seems to me that the people who now occupy the main positions in public life, remnants of the old Sinn Féin Party, have a special obligation in the matter. I should like to see them facing that obligation and I do not think that at the moment they are doing so.

Professor Stanford

I am sure many of us have been very much impressed by what Senator Hayes has just said. There is no doubt about it, the need has come for a second national resurgence. Senator Hayes has seen this State rise from its very earliest days and he can survey the scene with an experience which many of us cannot command. But I think all of us, older and younger, are conscious of the need for this combined national effort.

I suppose in some ways I can speak for a small minority in this country. I would only like to say here, without any previous thought or preparation, that that small minority is willing and eager to play its small but, I hope, useful part in the resurgence which we must have. It is a little discouraging for some of us when this offer of national service, and when this eagerness for national service, is misinterpreted. It has been misinterpreted as a struggle for power, to regain the old ascendancy. I can only say, as one who is right in the heart of this way of thinking amongst the minority, that I am certain it is not so. The old, exascendancy class, as it is sometimes called, although it is a very ambiguous phrase, has certain traditions of public service. It has had, largely through its own fault I think, for the last 30 years or so a certain feeling of frustration. I think that this feeling is passing. The consciousness for the need for every Irishman of every kind to unite in a new effort is giving some encouragement to that small minority. I can only hope, and say to the Seanad that I hope, they will show themselves worthy of it.

This evening, I had intended to speak on only three matters, on two very briefly and on the third more fully. The first has been very much talked about and the Minister will think, perhaps, there is hardly a need for anything more to be said. But, speaking as a teacher myself, I must say it. I refer to the cut in the capitation grants to secondary schools on page 201 of the Estimates. This cut amounts to £36,000.

Much has been said already on this, and justly said. I would simply like to emphasise two points. There are two grave objections to this small economy at the expense of education. The first is on the grounds of high principle. Surely it is most unwise for this country to economise on education at the present moment? We are fortunate in having the Minister for Education in the House and I do hope he agrees with me on this. We are fighting an ideological war for Ireland at home and abroad. The outcome of that ideological war will depend on our standard of education. If the Government deliberately holds back on the munitions for that most serious war of all, they will have a very grave responsibility to face before the tribunal of history.

There is a second, though perhaps not so cogent a reason, why this is a bad economy. We must constantly watch the standards in our two neighbouring States, in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The level of educational grants in those two States at the moment is very much higher than here. Our secondary schools are having the greatest difficulty in putting up new buildings and in paying teachers a living wage. If our secondary schools cannot keep some approach to parity with Northern Ireland and Great Britain, we will have more emigration and we will have a greater decline in our standards of education.

I do not want to labour these points, but I do hope the Minister for Finance, and the Minister for Education, will hold to the undertaking which I think they have given, to the effect that these capitation grants, and educational grants in general, will not be reduced again. I urge upon the Minister that it is the last thing upon which we should economise. We know that parents will stint themselves in food, in entertainment or anything else to keep up the standard of their children's education. If the Government and the Oireachtas as a whole are not prepared to do that, it is a bad sign.

The second matter I want to refer to is a comparatively small one, but not, I think, negligible. Twice already in this House, during the sessions of the last Seanad, I and some others raised the question of the present condition of the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham. This, as the Seanad knows, as all well-informed people in Ireland know, is one of our finest historic buildings—and it could be a useful building, put to the right use. In the previous Seanad, some of us did receive a sympathetic hearing from the previous Minister for Finance on this subject. My memory tells me he even undertook to get something done. I am sorry I was unable to find the exact reference in the reports of the debates, but that is my firm memory, that he said his Government hoped to do something about putting the building to rights.

I will simply put a question to the present Minister and I should be grateful for a statement from him in reply. Has anything yet been done to prevent further dilapidation of this building and, if not, will anything be done? I repeat that if this building is lost, it is irreplaceable. It is a noble, historic building. It is not like those houses in Kildare Place. They are simply representatives of a common kind of house generally well represented in Dublin. I do not take sides in this matter, in the argument for their reconstruction at a cost of £20,000 each. The Royal Hospital at Kilmainham is quite a different question. It is a unique, historic building and it would be extremely said if, through neglect on the part of those immediately concerned, this building should be allowed to fall down, as it will during the next few years, if something very definite is not done soon.

The third matter to which I want to refer—and I am afraid it may seem a dull subject to some, but I hope I will show it is not just that—is the subject of our national museums. The word may suggest dust and old things and a general air of boredom; but that is not the modern conception of museums. Modern educationists know very well that a museum can play a dynamic part in education, helping children and adults to get away from book learning which by itself very often has a harmful effect if it is not complemented with visual aids and practical demonstrations. And I hope to show that the question of museums does not impinge solely on education. Museums are important for tourism, agriculture, forestry, fisheries and for the development of our mineral resources. In fact, the whole scientific development of the country to some extent depends on good practical demonstrations through the museums.

Let me read what Sir Robert Kane, a very great Irishman, to whom the country owes as much on the practical side as it does to any other Irishman, said when he was director of the National Museum, or rather the museum as it was then, when it belonged to the Royal Dublin Society:

"Many a boy's course in after life has been bent to Industry or Science in consequence of his having accidentally come in upon a lecture here."

There are no lectures "here" now. That is one of the sad things. The young Sir Robert Kane of to-day, who might do so much for the future of this country will find little help in our museum of natural history or in any other of our museums. As a matter of fact, as I shall show, this House and the Oireachtas in general has played a certain guilty part, though we are not directly responsible, in the decline of the museums.

If I may, I will very briefly say how these museums grew up. They began over 200 years ago under the Royal Dublin Society, the society to which this country owes so much in the development of industry and science. Originally, the collections were housed in Hawkins Street. When the Royal Dublin Society bought this building, Leinster House, from the Duke of Leinster in 1815, the collections were transferred to this house under the Royal Dublin Society. Then, in 1853, came the great Dublin exhibition. We have a memorial to that outside in the statue of Albert, the Prince Consort, beside the Natural History Museum. He did a very great service to this country in helping to promote that exhibition.

In 1859, the Merrion Square Museum was completed and some magnificent and valuable collections were transferred there. These collections were very widely appreciated. The report in 1863 on the Museum of Irish Industry says as follows—but may I first say in parenthesis how valuable it was then to have a museum of Irish industry; we have none now:—

"The Natural History and Mineralogical Collections are of great value and no other means are available in Ireland for obtaining the kind of instruction which such exhibitions afford."

The report went on to say:—

"The Dublin museum is one of the most suitably housed and organised collections in Great Britain."

From that time on—that was in 1863 —our museums were built up magnificently and did very great service throughout the country. But during the first world war a steady decline came, and after the setting up of the independent Government our share in the blame begins. When the national Government took over Leinster House for the national Parliament, it also took over what was called "the curved gallery" of the museum, which is now our restaurant, and turned out the splendid geological exhibition which was never properly seen again. That magnificent exhibition now lies in the vaults of Hume Street inaccessible to the ordinary visitor.

Secondly, we as a Parliament are responsible for cutting off the connection between the two museums, the life line between natural history and antiquities. Here I come to something that concerns the Minister for Finance more immediately: waste of public money. It was very necessary to have some connecting passage between the two museums. It was decided a few years ago to try to provide such a passage. The passage that was provided at the public expense of public money is useless except for the officials. It goes along winding passages in which little schoolboys and others who come to the museum could not be allowed to stray under supervision. It is quite an unsuitable passage for general purposes. It simply allows officials to come to and fro, but the public still must go from Kildare Street right around to Merrion Street one way or another to go from one part of the museum to another. That is a waste of public money. It was a pity it was done. I hope something will be done to put it right. We are guilty, then, as a Parliament of two things, removing the sections devoted to geological specimens and breaking the vital link between the two museums.

I am sorry to say that these were not the only results of the change of Government in the last 30 years. There seems to be, for some reasons which I cannot explain—it is not in the nature of the Irish to neglect science and art— a steady neglect of the National Museum. Perhaps some of you are thinking: "But what about the splendid display of gold ornaments and antiquities in the Kildare Street museum?" I readily concede that. The antiquities have been splendidly displayed. They are highly appreciated by tourists and the citizens of Ireland, but that is not the only part of the museum to be considered. We must cherish the past; but we also look to the present and the future. The present and the future lie in the scientific exhibits of the natural history part of the museum and I claim that they are being steadily neglected.

Let me compare the state of the natural history museum now with what it was before the first world war. In 1911 the museum was opened daily from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. Now it is open only from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. It was open on Tuesdays and bank holidays until 10 p.m. Now there are, I understand, no evening openings at all. In those days there were 35 separate printed guides in the museums, each costing from 1d. to 1/-. There are now only two guides available, neither of them of any use to the natural history museum.

Now here is something even more significant, and I think the House will agree with me it is quite deplorable. I want the House to compare the figures for attendances at the museum in 1927 and in 1955. In the 30 years in which Dublin has expanded enormously we would expect a great increase in interest and in attendances. But what do we find? In the year 1927-28 there were 357,000 visitors. In 1955-56 there were 212,000 visitors, a falling off of 145,000. There is something wrong, when the population of Dublin has almost doubled, when the tourist trade has increased enormously, that the number of visitors at the National Museum should have declined so very greatly.

There are other bad comparisons involved, too. In 1911 there were lectures given, most valuable educationally; there are no lectures now. Other museums at present send out cases of exhibits to schools which are most valuable for the teaching of science in the schools. Our museum does not do that now. I could quote other examples of the sad deterioration within the last 40 years, partly due to the first world war, partly due to our taking over Leinster House and partly due to wrong economies in a matter of national importance. In the present Estimate there is an economy of over £2,000. In other words, the Estimate for museums has been cut by one-sixth.

I want to warn the Minister, and through him the Minister for Education and the other Ministers concerned, that by neglecting the natural history museum he is going to do the country grave damage. Scientific teaching in Dublin—I know this from the mouths of teachers of science—is suffering gravely through the lack of facilities at the museum. The tourist trade is probably being interfered with by the lack of facilities also. Agricultural research depends a great deal on young people taking an interest in insect pests, botany, and so on. They will get that interest not from books but from seeing displays of them actually at work in the museums. Geology and the future mineral wealth of our country depends on practical demonstrations of geological products—the fossils and the minerals shown to the children, so that they become excited at the thought of finding gold, silver or oil or uranium. They will not learn it out of books but out of the kind of things that could be provided by geological specimens, though not while they are lying in the cellars of Hume Street.

I must not delay the House too long on this matter. Senators may think it is a minor matter. I do not. I think it is very serious. I hope both the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education will think seriously about this. Putting it in terms of figures, attendances at the museum have fallen off and the Estimate has been cut this year. I think that, as a result, tourism and even the good name of the country will suffer. I shall give proof of that. It is very unfortunate that this September happens to be the year in which the members of the British Association of Scientists are visiting Dublin. It is a most important occasion, a very valuable opportunity for Dublin to show itself at its scientific best. And we have some good things to show—for example our turf development and medical research. But unfortunately, when dozens of those eminent scientists ask to see the Natural History Museum, they will be shocked at the organisation and at the general state of the museum. That is very sad. It is the result of under-staffing, of economy, of neglect in high quarters. I cannot lay the blame on any particular person, but I do say there has been neglect in high quarters. These collections are very valuable, in terms other than money in which they could be valued at hundreds of thousands of pounds. I would appeal to the Minister for Finance and, through him, to the Minister for Education and the other Ministers concerned to take energetic steps to remedy this state of affairs. I know there is much discontent among many public-spirited citizens on this matter. It is not a little hole-and-corner matter; it is a matter that concerns the whole scientific education and scientific development of our country.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I should like strongly to support most of what Senator Stanford has said. I am in thorough agreement with his remarks in relation to the museum. I should like, however, to make particular reference to the speech made by Senator Hayes, who dealt with the position of the Irish language and who advocated an inquiry in order that we should find out what we were not doing correctly, where we were going wrong in relation to the revival of the language. Without any inquiry, I should like to give my views on that matter in the belief that unless every aspect of the position is considered we shall never arrive at a correct explanation as to why, after 35 years of native Government, the Irish language has not consolidated itself as the spoken language of this country in the way and to the extent that it should have consolidated itself as a consequence of the campaign for its revival since 1922.

Senator Hayes referred to the absence of national spirit and Senator Stanford felt it was time for a second national resurgence. I am convinced that the reason why the Irish language is not more widely spoken, why it has not secured the proud approval of the children and of the people, and why it has not become rooted in the fashion it should have become rooted after these 35 years is that the approach in the schools is completely wrong. I agree with Senator Hayes that the schools themselves will not save the Irish language. I am convinced that the primary schools and the national teachers are turning out Irish speakers, that they are doing a tremendous job for which they should be given all possible recognition.

Unfortunately, the higher schools— the secondary schools and the universities—are not playing their part in that drive. Even if they were, I say the foundation is completely wrong. The national schools are turning out Irish speakers but not good Irish citizens. They are turning out boys and girls who have a good knowledge of the language but who apparently have no conception as to why they should use it, as to why they should feel proud of it, as to why they should value it, as to why they should go out of their way to speak it. Go into any part of this city, use the Irish language in shops, in cinemas, in lounge bars or anywhere you like and you will find that, even though the person who serves you knows it, he will more or less be inclined to speak sotto voce—a low “Tá”, “Ní headh”, “Níl”. He will not proudly shout it out and let everybody know that he knows the language and is proud to speak it.

I think no efforts of the Gaelic League, Cómhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, Cara or any other organisation will be successful in that regard until such time as the curricula of the national schools, to be followed by the secondary schools, the vocational schools and the universities, lay it down that the bedrock must be taught and taught properly to every child as a live subject with all its symbols. The bedrock is the history of this country. I am convinced that if the children had a proper grasp of the history of the fight for independence and of how difficult it was to secure the position in which we have Irish schools now able to teach our own language, and if they were made to feel, as a consequence of the wise guidance of the teachers, that the Irish language is a badge of our national independence and that it puts them a cut above those who do not speak it—that it makes them out as something distinct from Laplanders, English or Yanks—the difficulty we are now up against of many people being ashamed of the language would vanish overnight.

The generation who won the freedom of this State, who were educated in national schools under the British Board of Education and who did not have the advantages the people of to-day have got, learned Irish history in a truncated form. But they learned Irish history in a way which is not being utilised at the moment—through the ballads written about Ireland, about the struggles of Ireland. Greater use should be made of ballads as a means of teaching history in our schools, of making the children realise that the Irish language is part of our history and that unless they are proud of their language, they are not proud of their country.

Unless we begin on that basis, I do not see very much hope for the revival of the Irish language as a spoken tongue. I do see at least its revival as a cultural subject when people will have Irish as they have Latin or Greek, or a book knowledge of French, but so far as being the language of our racecourses, our football fields, our public-houses or of the Dáil and Seanad, it will not be revived, unless we can make those children now growing up, the citizens of to-morrow, realise that in the Irish language, they have something to be proud of. All this talk of compulsory Irish, of its being forced down the child's throat and being foisted on the parents against the will of the majority of the people—all that would disappear if there were a proper knowledge of the history of our country and if the children were made to feel this was something they should love, should be proud of, and should use on every occasion, and that it was a great privilege for them to demonstrate their citizenship of a free nation.

I strongly recommend to the Government, and, through the Minister here, to the Minister for Education, that some consideration should be given to a revision of the school books to include ballads and national songs of Ireland in Irish in the infant schools, and in English in the later stages of the children's education and that, however the time is found and whatever else has to suffer in the curriculum, adequate time should be given to a special presentation of the reason why the schools are to-day Irish, why there is an Irish flag flying instead of the Union Jack, why this Parliament meets here instead of sending representatives to Westminster. Until that is done, I do not see much real hope for progress in the direction of reviving the Irish language as the spoken language of the people.

As an immediate step towards that end, towards recognition by the Government that something more necessary than merely having the language taught in the schools, notice should be given by the Department of Education that as from next year the written Irish paper in the Primary Certificate examination will go for good and will be replaced by an oral test which, after all, is the only tangible proof that the child has acquired any real fluency in the language. I would strongly recommend also that the Minister for Education should serve notice on all secondary schools that as from next year or the year following, there is to be an oral test for Intermediate and Leaving Certificate examinations as well as a written test.

As far as the universities are concerned, I would certainly insist that there should be an oral test for matriculation in the National University. In regard to the Trinity entrance examination, I am not aware that Irish is compulsory or recognised in any way whatever, and Trinity is a university which receives, as far as I can make out from the Appropriation Bill and Estimates, State grants, and I see no reason in the world why Dublin University should not conform to the national pattern and we should insist that Irish be recognised for the entrance examination of that university. I would be more inclined to applaud Senator Stanford's statement of the willingness of those for whom he speaks to co-operate, if there was evidence of their co-operation in a tangible way in the direction of the Irish language being required for their entrance examination, and some further recognition of its status in that university.

Professor Stanford

May I point out to the Senator that there is an oral test in Irish in the matriculation examination in Trinity College and that we recently introduced a special diploma in Irish for the encouragement of Irish studies in which our best teachers are taking part? Another university has since followed suit, but I think credit should be given to Trinity for the founding of that diploma.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

What I would like to know from the Senator is, if I go in for the entrance examination at Trinity and if I fail in Irish, will I be permitted to get a pass in the entrance examination?

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

The standard in Irish is very high.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

That is not the point. Can I get into Trinity on a doped certificate, if I fail in Irish?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This debate cannot be conducted by means of question and answer.

Professor Stanford

The answer to the question is that if the student is taking only Irish and one other language, he certainly would fail. The standard of oral Irish is particularly high.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I am very glad to hear that from Professor Stanford and I am also glad to hear about the diploma. I was aware of the diploma and I should like to give credit where credit is due and to congratulate the authorities on their very progressive step in regard to that matter.

Coming back to the question of education, I understand that a civics course is now on the curriculum for the training colleges. I do not know whether it is organised in every one of the training colleges; I know that, in one, it is. That civics course includes the teaching of Bunreacht na hEireann to young prospective teachers. I should like to express the hope that the teaching is done in a manner which treats the subject as a live subject. It is very difficult to inspire people with enthusiasm for a subject of that nature unless it is taught as a live subject, as I know from the fact that when I went to school in the United States the Constitution of the country was taught as a live subject and with the aid of films and every child in the class felt it a personal responsibility to know something about the land in which he lived and the public institutions which operated on his behalf.

I hope that the Constitution of Ireland will, in some way, be introduced into the national schools, the secondary schools and the universities. I know I shall be told it is in the secondary schools and the universities, but it is a very strange thing that I have questioned dozens of young people, students, who have not the remotest idea of what it is all about, and they were secondary and, in some cases, university students. I feel that the Constitution is a very important part of the child's education and if the teaching of it is begun in the national schools—there is no reason why it should not be taught to children in primary classes—I feel that they will grow up with pride in their own country and its achievements and with a determination that the language which is enshrined in that Constitution as the official language of Ireland will be their language and that any onslaught made on it will be an onslaught made on each and every one of them.

I have long been an advocate also of the use of modern technique in education. By modern technique, I mean radio and films. Some years ago, Radio Eireann did produce a schools programme, and many of the schools, at the expense of the teachers, equipped themselves with wireless receivers to take that programme. Then the war came and the programme disappeared. We have had nothing like it since. There is no doubt in the world we are in a backward state in regard to that aspect of education here, because if one considers even the two subjects of history and geography and adds the proper speaking of the Irish language to them, it would be well worth while to have a radio programme for half an hour or an hour per day organised by Radio Eireann for the schools to assist teachers in these matters.

I have been looking for a long time for an English-Irish dictionary. Once upon a time, Father McKenna got out a fine book and it had a large circulation. However, it went out of print. He also got out a phrase dictionary which was one of the most valuable contributions to the campaign to revive the Irish language amongst grown-ups. It is hardly credible that after all these years neither An Gúm, the Government, the Department of Education nor anybody else seems to take any interest whatever in providing that essential tool to the students and those who want seriously to study Irish as a language they want to speak. I feel there must be some way for the Department of Education, through An Gúm or otherwise, to reprint Father McKenna's phrase dictionary and his English-Irish dictionary at the earliest possible moment. There is a demand for it but that demand is not being satisfied by anybody.

I have also been convinced for a long time that we do not avail ourselves sufficiently of symbols, signs and flags in our educational system. I feel the time is long overdue for the flying of the national flag over every school and the singing of the National Anthem in every school. I see no insuperable difficulty. The Department of Education should attack the problem anew. These symbols are the things which, along with an understanding of the history of our country, will inspire the children to have respect for the flag and anthem. It will prevent the disgraceful situation obtaining in this country to-day where even grown-ups display very little respect for the flag and no respect for the National Anthem, where even before the little piece which is played at the end of the cinema performances goes on the screen there is a concerted rush, similar to that which occurs when somebody says: "Time, gentlemen," at 10.30 in certain places. The reason is that people do not seem to realise that this is the National Anthem and that they should show respect for it.

The same applies to the flag. I have seen flags flown in this city, by people who should know better, which were soiled, torn and unfit for public exhibition. As a matter of fact, in a notable yacht club along our coast I have seen a flag which did not even contain the national colours but which purported to be the flag of Ireland. In a really self-respecting democracy, in which the young people who will be the citizens of to-morrow are taught to respect the flag, that could not happen. Therefore, I urge very strongly again that the Department of Education should reconsider their whole attitude to the use of symbols and see what can be done to get them accepted by every school, that in all new schools provision be made in a prominent part of the grounds for a flag pole and that, if necessary, a flag should be provided by the Department of Education.

I notice in the Estimates and in the Appropriation Bill provision for what is described as An Comhairle Ealaoin, the Arts Council. This Arts Council was set up under an Act which I took the trouble of looking up. This is the definition:—

"The expression ‘The Arts means painting, sculpture, architecture, music, the drama, literature, design in industry and the fine arts and applied arts generally."

Amongst the duties of the Council of this Comhairle Ealaoin are:—

"(1) To stimulate public interest in the arts; (2) to promote the knowledge, appreciation and practice of the arts; and (3) assist in improving the standard of the arts."

I feel that this Arts Council could be a very useful auxiliary in many ways and particularly in the development of talent, but I am afraid it is not doing its job. Now that we have the Minister for Finance here I should like to avail of the opportunity to ask him a question or two. Before doing so, I should like to cite a case for the information of Senators and ask is there any sense in having an Arts Council which does not entertain the possibility of doing something under this head.

I know of a student, a brilliant student, who won the only pianoforte scholarship awarded this session by the Royal College of Music in London. The examination for this scholarship was open to students from Great Britain and the British Commonwealth and there were over 1,000 entrants. This student was awarded the only scholarship. This scholarship was never before won by an Irish student and it may not come to Ireland again in our generation. As I said, this student gave proof of remarkable gifts. I am convinced—and not alone I but others more capable of assessing the brilliancy of this student are also convinced— that given the opportunity of further training this student can become an outstanding concert pianist, a world concert pianist.

Unfortunately, the student's parents are not in a position to provide the maintenance necessary in London for the period of further tuition. Therefore, an application was made for a grant towards the maintenance in London of the student. The grant was refused by the Arts Council under a standing order which excludes individual application. When representations were made as to whether the standing order could be waived, amended or set aside for special cases, it was found that the standing order was sacrosanct, that whether the members of the Art Council wished it or not, this standing order was there and nothing could be done about it.

Here is the position. A brilliant student whose parents cannot afford the balance of the money needed to ensure a continuation of tuition and the possibility that, given that, this student could bring credit to Ireland in the same way in which John Count McCormack brought credit to Ireland and made Ireland's name a household word through his singing throughout the word, finds there is no way in which the Arts Council can help. I want to know something about the Arts Council. When I came across that case, I asked myself what this body was and what function it was performing, how was it serving its function and how was it discharging its duty.

I came across a remarkable thing. I came across some information that the president, chairman or director, as he is now, of the Arts Council is in receipt now of a salary. I always understood that the director of the Arts Council had not been in receipt of a salary. I should like to know from the Minister for Finance, if he can find time to note it, whether that is true. I am aware that the director for five years was not in receipt of a salary. I should like to know when this change was made in the arrangements and why in the case of an appointment of that nature it was necessary to make the change.

I should like to know whether it is a good principle that the Government should exercise patronage in a salaried position of that nature. I do not think it is. I do not think the position should be salaried. I think it is a deplorable thing, if we have a council which could fulfil a useful function in helping talent and pushing talent forward, if because of some standing order made by the chairman or by the director, nothing can be done about it. I should like the Minister to inform me whether there has been a change in the status of the chairman and whether the Arts Council has in fact any power whatever, or who makes these standing orders. Is it the director, the council, or the Government? Who makes a standing order which precludes reopening of a case such as I have outlined here? There must be an answer to it and I should like to know it.

The Appropriation Bill gives us an opportunity to draw attention to defects that we see, and I should like to avail myself of it to refer to another particular branch of State service— Radio Eireann. When the Government decided to divorce Radio Eireann from Civil Service control to a certain extent and to set up An Comhairle Radio, I welcomed the move because I thought that the quicker we could get Radio Eireann out of the control of the Civil Service and turn it into an independent broadcasting corporation the better it would be for all concerned and the better it would be for listeners. I thought this measure of control which An Comhairle Radio had got was going to be an indication of the wonderful change there would be when Radio Eireann blossomed forth as a full-blown independent broadcasting corporation in due course.

I must say that I was very disappointed and I must say that my mind is changing rapidly, that far from wanting Radio Eireann to get out of Civil Service control and the control of the Minister, I am inclined now to regret my momentary lapse into believing that an independent broadcasting corporation would be an improvement on what we have now, that is, An Comhairle Radio. I should like to inform Senators, in case they do not know it, that if the treatment which Radio Eireann gives to this House, for example, now that it is semi-independent, is any indication of what will happen if and when the Government decides to cut the painter and turn them adrift, I am afraid Seanad Eireann will find very little space in the Radio Eireann news bulletins or parliamentary summaries. I think the treatment accorded to Seanad Eireann is deplorable and insulting. After all, this is a House of Oireachtas Eireann, set up by the Constitution, and as such it deserves proper respect and recognition by public bodies such as Radio Eireann.

There was a Seanad general election of which all Senators are aware. I would like to tell the Seanad something about Radio Eireann's performance during that general election. I think it is important that these facts should be known, in the hope that they may have a salutary effect on the minds of those who run the news room in the G.P.O. I will recall that the counting of votes began in Dublin at 11 a.m. on May 9th. The final result in Dublin University was available before 6 p.m. that evening. The first count figures for the Cultural and Educational Panel were available at 5.45 p.m. and the first count figures for the National University were available at 9 p.m. The 6.30 p.m. news had the names of the three elected in Dublin University, but no further details. There was no mention of the Cultural and Educational Panel, the votes for which, as I say, had been counted and the figures for which were available. Both the news in Irish and the news in English repeated the names of the Dublin University Senators, but had nothing on the Cultural and Educational Panel, the result of which was announced four and a half hours earlier. Nor had they anything on the National University vote, announced an hour and a half before news time on the air. That was the first step. We shall continue the serial story with the next day.

The 6.30 p.m. news bulletin on the 10th May gave the names of the 11 elected to the Seanad on the Agricultural Panel and announced the start of the count for the Labour Panel. Three and a half hours later, the news in Irish carried the very same story, although the first count in the Labour Panel was available. Now we come to the 10.15 bulletin in English. Whoever compiled that did not think the Seanad election was of sufficient importance to warrant even a heading and repeated the same story as was on the 6.30 news, but put the mention of the Seanad election as the last item in the bulletin, before the provincial briefs. Adding insult to injury, it was announced that the count in the university had been "completed to-day". The full and final count from the University was available before 6 p.m. on the day before that.

Finally, on Saturday, the 11th, the 6.30 news had 11 separate news reports, stretching from doings in South America to the Suez Canal and including the proposed visit of Queen Elizabeth of England to the United States and also the activities of King Saud in Baghdad. This world tour was followed by the usual provincial news reports, which dealt with such world shattering items as periwinkles off Wexford, trout in the Corrib and Wee Georgie's antics down in Dundalk. The concluding stages of the Seanad election count had been in progress, and the result had been announced some time before news time; but, believe it or not, the words "Seanad Eireann" were not heard during the whole 15 minutes of the bulletin.

I think conduct like that and news reporting like that is disgraceful. It recalls to me the words of Senator Baxter here last week when he spoke of the efforts being made to bring down democracy in this country and to bring different institutions into disrepute. I wonder whether or not the people who compile these news bulletins realise how near they are sailing to the wind in participating in the suppression of news which was hot news at the time —the Seanad election—how near they are to participating in being auxiliaries to the mentality which is being created that different institutions in this country are of very little concern and very little worth to anybody.

I feel that if any Senator listens to the parliamentary report given by Radio Eireann at 10.45 p.m., he will feel the same as I do, namely, that very little attention is given to Seanad Eireann, that very little effort is made to let the people know that this House debates Bills received from the Dáil and debates them in an intelligent manner and takes some time over them. To judge from the review of the proceedings of Parliament by Radio Eireann, one would imagine that this House met for a couple of seconds and then departed for another month.

I should like also to draw the attention of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to another deplorable performance which convinces me that if this is the best a semi-independent corporation can do, we had better put a stop to it quickly. The one day in the year which lends itself to radio broadcasting so far as the Irish people are concerned is St. Patrick's Day. Any imaginative news officer or feature producer in any radio station would have very little difficulty in knocking together a magnificent programme which would bring to the people of Ireland a glimpse of the importance of the day as seen by others of our race throughout the world. It would not cost so much. Radio Eireann attempted it—that is to say, they attempted a word picture from New York on St. Patrick's Day.

In New York on St. Patrick's Day, there is a great parade down Fifth Avenue. On this occasion, there were a lot of celebrities in New York, including the then Lórd Mayor of Dublin. Many aspects of that parade could have been described when they went to the trouble of having a broadcast at all—and they had on the spot a first-class radio commentator and a first-class outside features officer in an ex-Radio Eireann official who is now seconded to the United Nations Radio in New York. But, glory be, they got a soccer commentator to describe the parade down Fifth Avenue and the transference from St. Patrick's Cathedral to Fifth Avenue of the Cardinal and the other dignitaries and, of course, there was no description.

The same story can be told of Radio Eireann's Easter Week programmes which are a complete failure so far as inspiring any listeners into a realisation that in that particular week many years ago great events happened in this country. Very little effort is made by Radio Eireann to put a bit of inspiration into their Easter Week programmes and very little effort is made in regard to St. Patrick's Day broadcasts.

I do not know what this council has done since it was set up in regard to one of the greatest grievances our people have in England, namely, the very poor reception from the Radio Eireann transmitter at Athlone. We need not go to England at all: it is the same story in part of Wexford, South Kerry and Donegal where the Radio Eireann programmes are hardly obtainable. I do not know what effort has been made to step up the power. There must be some way of doing it. Every time I turn the knob on the radio, I find stations in Europe with their power stepped up to such an extent that they can be heard quite clearly in this country. Surely Radio Éireann is not so lacking in influence —or is it?—that we cannot do something to ensure proper reception from that station in the Midlands of England, in parts of Scotland and in London where our programmes can hardly be heard due to fading, in particular.

In passing, I might say that I think the most deplorable decision ever made by a Government here was the decision not to proceed with the shortwave station. We are the only mother country in Europe—in fact, I think, in the world—which has not the facilities to communicate with its people overseas except through the courtesy of a foreign broadcasting combination. I think it was a sad thing that the shortwave transmitter was dismantled by the Coalition and that the shortwave station which we were to have had was put in abeyance.

I always feel we should have a choral rendering of the National Anthem. We have not got it. The rendering at the end of the radio programmes at night is a fine military march, but I feel something is lacking. There are thousands of visitors who come to this country who would like to get a gramophone recording of our National Anthem sung by a good choir but nobody has done anything about it. I suggest that, there again, the Department of Education might consider investigating the possibilities of what can be done.

I feel I must refer also to another part of the activity of State bodies which is annoying me and has annoyed me for quite a while. I have read the annual report of An Bord Fáilte. This annual report asserts that the rate of tourist development depends on the efficiency of the publicity campaign in Britain and North America, the adequacy of cross-Channel and internal transport services, the provision of suitable accommodation, entertainment and local amenities. That is a summary, as far as I can make it, of the contention in the annual report of An Bord Fáilte. I should like to acquaint Senators, and the Government also, of my experience of An Bord Fáilte's publicity campaign.

I have travelled in quite a number of places in England, Scotland and Wales. Recently, I travelled all through the English Midlands and took a particular interest in publicity posters for Ireland. I must say I did not see any of them in the railway stations. British Railways had plenty of posters inviting people to come to Northern Ireland. In every station, there were posters issued by the Northern Ireland Tourish Development Board, but I did not see any publicity from Bord Fáilte prominently displayed. It may have been pushed around the back of a siding, or somewhere like that, but certainly on the main platforms I did not see any.

I meet quite a number of American visitors and they all have the same complaint. All those who come from the Middle and Far West in the United States say—and if their reports are correct, there is no doubt that they have a grievance—that from Chicago to the West, it is almost impossible to get any publicity material about Ireland. They say something much more serious which I think indicates a complete fall-down by the Bord Fáilte public relations department. They say that in the western States of the United States when travel agents are booking tours for Europe no mention is made of Ireland. Quite a number of Americans come to Europe now. They save up for a number of years and make it a big holiday and they get an all-in blanket tour. I have met Americans who had been in Norway, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, France, Luxemburg, Spain and Italy. Quite by accident, in Norway, some of them found out about Ireland and decided that on their last lap they would take it in on their way home. They told me —and they gave me their names—that the travel agents who booked these tours booked for every country in Europe but never mentioned Ireland.

I do not know how it is done or what consideration has to be given to travel agents in the Middle West, but certainly if other countries can get their wares publicised in the way they are getting them publicised, there is no reason why Ireland should fall down on the job. It is a matter that should be considered in view of the fact that we vote a big sum of money to Bord Fáilte. That is not an isolated example and I should like to give another. There is an international weekly which circulates widely in this country and which has a circulation of about 2,750,000 copies per week. In that weekly, about last March, there was a section which dealt with Americans travelling to Europe and which advised Americans where they were to go, what they were to see and how much it was going to cost for buses, taxis, trains, beer and whiskey in every country. They were told where they could get their food, how much steaks cost here, there and everywhere. Accompanying the article there were facsimiles of the tourist posters of nine different countries in Europe. The nine countries were, Austria, Britain, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain and Switzerland, but there was no sign of any posters representing the beauties of Killarney, the attractions of Avoca or of the beautiful City of Dublin. That was all free publicity in that travel section, free publicity for those nine countries, and it is good publicity because it was very informative.

What did we find on turning over the pages of the same publication? We found a very nice two-coloured advertisement from Aer Lingus which was not even mentioned in the list of air lines advocated by the magazine for Americans travelling to Europe. Later on, we find a full page advertisement sponsored by Aer Lingus and An Bord Fáilte, or the Irish Tourist Board, as they call themselves for foreign consumption, with a picture of the Liffey running through the heart of Dublin. That advertisement must have cost some money, but all these other countries got free publicity and had their posters reproduced free, gratis and for nothing in a magazine with a certified sale of over 2,500,000 in the United States and many parts of Europe.

Something better should come from the public relations and the publicity departments of Bord Fáilte. I do think that when that happens, they are not as wide-awake to the necessities of the situation as they should be. I feel also, from speaking to American soldiers and sailors, that there is not enough done to interest the American Forces in Europe—not alone in England, but in Germany and France—in the possibility of good, cheap and well-fed holidays in Ireland. There are about 250,000 of these boys overseas now. A lot of them have got relatives here and are very proud of their Irish ancestry, even though it goes back to 1700 and they cannot trace anyone later than that. They all have the same story, that is, that there is very little organised effort made to tap the rich potential which is there amongst American soldiers, in Germany particularly, to which there is now a direct air service and where organised tours to Ireland could be arranged.

Whenever I read that Bord Fáilte is inviting English newspaper men here on a couple of days' tour around the beauty spots of Dublin, I feel that it would be far better if they invited a group of American soldiers from Stutt-gart, Frankfurt or Bremen to come at the expense of Bord Fáile because they will go back and talk about their trip. I do not know how much publicity we will get from tours for English newspaper men, but if it is anything like the publicity which we generally get in the British Press, then it will not be worth much.

When tourists come here they will need maps and I feel some effort should be made—I know there are difficulties—to ensure that whenever it is possible, and as soon as it is possible, our Ordnance Survey maps will be brought up to date. I do not know what the technical difficulties of that may be, but I suggest it is a point worth looking into. Tourists do want maps and motorists want maps, and these maps, I feel, would be assured of a ready sale if they were available generally and if they were up to date.

Visitors here have also complained to me about the heavy freight charges they have to pay when they bring their cars with them and complain about the lack of a car ferry service in this country. I think that would be a difficult matter to tackle and a matter which involves financial considerations, but it will have to be faced if we are to keep our place in the contest for tourist traffic in these modern days. The Bord Fáilte annual report stressed the importance of cross-Channel transport. I know that every effort has been made to get British Railways to put on a day boat at an earlier part of the year than they do. The day boat service does not begin until June 28th or the first week of July.

Hoteliers have told me that during the Tóstal period, particularly from the midland areas of England, we would have a tremendous influx of tourists, if British Railways could be induced to put on a day boat. These people would take their holidays earlier and would stay for a week or fortnight during that period in May, but would not make the night crossing and would not care to make the crossing by air.

There is another very important matter which affects our tourist potential and that is the almost negligible service to Scotland. This week there are about 100,000 shipyard, steel and factory workers on holidays in Glasgow. They finish work on Friday night and about 25,000 of them would come to Ireland but there is no boat to Dublin until Monday. On the return journey it is the same story. The boat leaves Dublin on Thursday night. Better service on that line would mean that four days more could be spent in Ireland. If the 25,000 which I visualise came here and spent only 10/- a day it would mean a big increase in tourist revenue for our hotels and shops generally.

I think that consideration should be given to the potentialities of that trade particularly by Irish Shipping. Of course, they can put up an alibi but certainly there is no alibi for the very poor service which exists by sea between Dublin and Glasgow and which, to my mind, deprives us of a tremendous amount of money by reason of the fact that it keeps away thousands of tourists who would come here if the way were made easy for them.

We have also to help C.I.E. in our financial allocations. I feel that the internal transport system here of which also Bord Fáilte Éireann spoke in this report leaves very much to be desired in regard to the main line suburban services and bus connections, particularly on Sunday. We heard a lot about the fact that if there was adequate diesel power available the suburban lines would be completely dieselised. Anybody who walks to the corner of Holles Street and has a look at the railway bridge and is able to spend a couple of hours watching it will find there are more steam trains operated on that line than diesels.

On the Dublin to Rosslare line there is no express. There is no main-line express on the Rosslare-Dublin line or, indeed, on the Rosslare-Cork or the Cork-Rosslare line. The strange thing about it is that, in spite of all the publicity about the great improvement in services by C.I.E. which was to attract all the traffic, the running times of these trains which appear in the summer time-tables are exactly the same as the running times of the same trains in the winter season. There is no improvement whatever so far as that goes.

A most remarkable thing is that on the best paying service on that line, a service which is almost a goldmine in my opinion, because I use it, the Dublin-Greystones service, there is not a single express. With a diesel train which is far cheaper to run than a steam train, there is a traffic potential which would warrant non-stop trains from Westland Row to Bray and from Westland Row to Greystones at least a couple of times in the day but there is none and every train after 6.15 from Westland Row to Greystones stops at all stations except one. It does not look as if there is very much originality or initiative in the development of the internal transport which according to Bord Fáilte Éireann is essential to ensure that when the tourists get here they will be brought speedily and comfortably to their destination.

While on this matter of C.I.E., I should also like to ventilate another grievance which I think is deplorable and that is the lack of imagination on the part of the planners of the city bus services. Anybody who has experience of trying to board a bus at an intermediate point between 5.30 p.m. and 7 p.m. will realise the bad language that must be used and how many pains in the head must be experienced by people seeing buses pass choc-full. It does not seem to have dawned on the bus planners of this city that an obvious remedy for that, and for the disappointment which tourists in particular suffer when they come here and find a badly organised service to the suburban parts of the town, is a feeder system of buses which would be an ideal way of dealing with this problem.

In other words, I suggest an express service of buses, every second one running for at least one hour at night and leaving the Pillar to pick up those standing at intermediate points with another leaving full. I have heard tourists standing at various points along Nassau Street and Mount Street complain that from 5.20 p.m. to 7 p.m. they cannot board a bus for Dún Laoghaire. Unless something is done about that it will certainly leave a very bad impression on the minds of those who are told that there is an excellent city service and that they can get quickly and cheaply to the beaches on the suburban south coast.

I have also to refer to another point in the report of Bord Fáilte Éireann which deals with accommodation. I agree that the accommodation in our hotels has greatly improved over the past years but I am afraid that there is one little matter which will cause trouble. I met the other day an American who is city editor of a big newspaper in the Middle West. He was charmed with the Bord Fáilte book of hotels showing the grading and all the rest of it. He stayed in one of the top class hotels in the city which was a Grade A hotel. He went down the country and stayed in a Grade A hotel. He did not get the same amenities which he got in the Grade A hotel in Dublin. He complained bitterly to me that this Grade A hotel in the country was not a patch on the Grade A hotel in Dublin.

He suggested that Bord Fáilte would be wise to try to find some solution for that problem and let people know that in the Grade A hotels in the city which are modern and up-to-date there are many amenities which a Grade A hotel in a country area would not be able to provide because of the circumstances and that the grading, therefore, should be made so clear that those who stay in a Grade A hotel in the city would not expect to find Gresham standards in other parts of the country.

The report spoke about the necessity for providing good entertainment for visitors. In that connection, I think that the example of the Great Southern Hotel in Killarney is well worthy of emulation by every hotel. It sets a very good example of what should be done, not alone to interest and amuse our visitors but also to educate them into a realisation that this is a different country from England even though those around them, unfortunately, have to speak the English language. In Killarney, the Great Southern Hotel, night after night, provides a little concert party constituted of dancers from a dancing school in the town, singers and musicians. Senators would be as delighted as I was to find the amazing reception this party gets from American and English visitors. On wet nights, when it is not possible to get around, it would be a good idea if other hotels in other areas would provide indoor entertainment, which would be not alone entertainment but would also have a certain publicity value because such entertainment would advertise our language, our characteristics, our tradition and our dress and should prove an invaluable aid to tourism.

I have often been puzzled and annoyed by another matter. I can never understand why hotels and, in particular, restaurants here in Dublin which want to demonstrate that they are a little more aristocratic than other restaurants and hotels insist on printing their menus in French. Bord Fáilte have fallen down completely in relation to that matter. If a foreign language is essential in order to show that a hotel is something above the ordinary or that a restaurant is a cut above an ordinary eating house, there is no reason in the world why English should not be used as the foreign language and Irish as the home tongue. If these establishments are anxious to make a distinction, there is no reason why Irish should not substitute English and no reason why the menus should not be printed in French and Irish.

If one goes into most of these restaurants and hotels and one speaks French, one will find that the staff has simply got the menu off by heart and make quite a good effort at pronunciation; but if one asks one of the waiters whether something is hot today or cold, whether it is imported or home-produced, the invariable reply is for the waiter to send for the headwaiter. That has happened to me. Bord Fáilte should use its public relations and publicity department to find out what can be done to get these hotels to use the menus in order to prove to our visitors that this is not the country they left, that this is a country with a language of its own. Let the menus be printed in Irish and in French, if these establishments want to indicate that we are just as highly civilised as other countries which use French as a criterion of civilisation.

In my visits to England, Scotland and Wales, I have come across a remarkable feature. I speak now in reference to Coras Tráchtála. If one goes into a bar in any hotel, particularly the railway hotels, and asks for any of the well-known brands of Irish whiskey, one finds it almost impossible to get it. It may be produced from a cupboard somewhere at the back of the bar. If one presses very hard for Irish whiskey, one is provided in all probability with the product of a certain part of County Antrim, a product which is the nearest approach to Scotch whisky that I know of. Inevitably everywhere one is offered Scotch and soda. Even on British Railways, it is difficult to get any of the well-known brands of Irish whiskey. Coras Tráchtála and the Irish distillers, if they are serious, will find a big market ready and available for tapping, provided they send a delegation of good public relations men around the major chain of British hotels and get bottles of our well-known brands into them, even if they have to give them away free. There is undoubtedly a market for Irish whiskey, a market which one need not go 3,000 miles across the Atlantic to find. It is there. All it requires is to be organised.

With relation to Irish Shipping, I know the difficulties of entering the cross-Channel trade. I know the wonderful progress that has been made, and I hope that progress will be continued until we shall have on the high seas as sizable and as good a merchant fleet as other nations similar to ourselves. In connection with the two tankers which are on the stocks and the one which has been chartered for five years by Irish Shell, I wonder whether it would not be possible to step up the programme. I know the financial difficulties, but experience has shown that bigger tankers save crew costs. They are economic inasmuch as they pay for their construction in a very short time, a much shorter time than the smaller tankers take. In view of the proposed oil refinery in Cork, it would be a great advantage to us to have at our disposal sizable tankers. If Irish Shipping or private enterprise, aided by the Government, could in some way be induced to buy one good modern salvage tug to operate off our coasts, there is a profitable harvest to be reaped. That tug might be of great assistance in bringing business to the new graving dock and to the magnificent dockyard that we have here in Dublin.

I have for a long time held the view that the operational methods adopted in one section of the Department of Finance are antediluvian and should be superseded. I refer to the Office of Public Works. There is no reason in the world why there should be in that office a chairman, two commissioners and a Parliamentary Secretary. I can see no reason for the chairman and the commissioners, but I can see good reason and good solid argument why there should be a Ministry of Works and why the chairman and commissioners should be abolished. From time to time, I have had experience of dealing with the Office of Public Works. It is almost impossible for an outsider to get a decision. Possibly Deputies and Senators can get decisions more quickly, but, speaking as an outsider, before I became a Senator, I found it very difficult to get a quick decision.

The idea of the Board of Works should be revised. The operations of that concern should be examined to see whether there is any point in the suggestion I make that that sub-Department should be elevated to the status of a Department with a Minister, instead of this peculiar system of having a chairman and two commissioners, which costs three times a Minister's salary year after year. If there were a Minister in charge of that Department who could be tackled in the Dáil or Seanad, perhaps we could get rid of the two antediluvian dredgers that the Board of Works have been operating for the last 52 years and which take months and months to get around the coast to places were dredging is required to be done. A couple of good, big, modern vessels are required and the sooner somebody consigns the others to their well-earned resting place in the scrapyard, the better.

I have spoken at length but I have still some words to say on a subject that is dear to the hearts of thousands of our people. I appreciate the difficulty which lies in the way of securing the return of the remains of Sir Roger Casement to Ireland. I know that every effort has been made by Governments and by the Department of External Affairs and we hope that a continuance of the efforts by the Government and by our people in various organisations will eventually secure the desired result.

There are also the remains of two other patriots about which the Department of External Affairs should do something. It is long overdue that an effort should be made at a proper level to secure the return to Ireland of the remains of Father Albert and Father Dominic who died in exile 32 years ago, in California. I understand that the Chapter of the Capuchin Order which met in Dublin a couple of years ago was in favour of the return of the remains under certain conditions and that they appointed the Reverend Father Provincial at that time to see that those conditions were secured.

I do not know what part the Department of External Affairs or the Minister could actively take in the matter of negotiation with the Father Provincial but I do know that it is the desire of a large volume of our people that due honour should be paid to Father Albert and Father Dominic. Everybody who is interested would be glad to comply with whatever conditions are required by the Order concerned. People generally hope that a decision will be speeded up so that the remains can be returned and receive the honour that is their due.

I know the necessity that exists for cuts in every Department and for economies but I regret the cut in the information service and cultural relations section of the Department of External Affairs. I hope that it will not be long until conditions are good enough to allow adequate finance to be made available in these matters because no service is more important to our country than the supply of adequate, correct information to friendly peoples as to the real position here and as to our cultural development. The activities which the Cultural Relations Committee should pursue would redound to the credit of this country and would be a valuable help in publicising the injustice of the Partition of Ireland.

I have long felt that our diplomatic representation in many countries is valuable and that we could render it more valuable by extension to the Far East. That would not require a full diplomatic mission or an increase in the Vote. We have missionaries in Japan, in the Philippines, in Indonesia, Burma and India. A large number of our citizens are operating in various ways as missionaries, sisters, nurses, doctors, all through the Far East and it is a matter of some consequence that we should have at least an honorary consul in Tokio which could be regarded as the centre of the Far East diplomatic circuit. It would not be impossible to achieve that objective without any increase in expenditure. I would ask the Minister to give some attention to the possibility of doing so as soon as possible.

I should like to have from the Minister for Finance some information with regard to the subsidy given to newspapers and periodicals for printing slabs of Irish in the middle of pages of English. I know of one paper to which the former Minister for Education refused point blank to give a grant or subsidy. That paper has a circulation of 7,000 to 9,000. It circulates amongst the people of the Gaeltacht. It is, in fact, the voice of the Gaeltacht. It did not qualify for the subsidy and I should like to know why. I should like to know if that position still obtains and, if so, if it is intended to give the subsidy.

The Appropriation Bill has given us a good opportunity to ventilate any ideas we might have on various aspects of State administration. There are many other aspects with which I should like to deal but I have been speaking for quite a long time. Senator Ó hAodha referred to the deplorable necessity for the restoration of internment camps and felt that something should be done. Well, we all feel the same way.

We all feel that it is to be regretted that this move was necessary but surely we are all agreed, also, that if we are ever to end Partition, if we are ever to secure the allegiance of the people in the Six North-Eastern Counties, who are just as brave, just as determined and just as conscientious as we are and who believe, just as we do, in their right to hold their own views for free Irish government in a free Irish nation, we must certainly admit we are not going to secure it by threats, by force, by bombs or bullets in a way in which a section of our people apparently believe it can be done. I feel there is much misunderstanding in the country on this matter. It is too bad that young people apparently are led astray by woolly-headed thinkers who do not appreciate the damage which can be done, not alone by irresponsible acts but by irresponsible statements and by bad example.

I agree with Senator Baxter that the times are serious, that the ideological war which is going on throughout Europe and the world is a matter of serious concern to us, that we have come to this stage without any immediate dangerous reactions to it, but we are not safe. Any action which weakens the fabric of this State, which weakens democracy and the allegiance of the people to a democratic system of government by the people, for the people and elected by the people, is dangerous and damaging. If these people would only stop for a moment to consider it, they would find that all the thinkers who thought for Ireland, and who proclaimed her gospel in the past, had the same views which I have and which I am quite certain the majority of the sensible people in the country have, that it is of no use to secure the occupied territory by force and to substitute one army of occupation by another. That is what is would amount to if we were to secure that territory by force. An Irish army of occupation would have to hold it against the will of the people.

There is only one way in which we can reunite this country and that is by the consent of those people who differ from us in the Six North-Eastern counties. We will never do it by threats or by force. I am convinced that given time, mutual respect and understanding, and given the cooperation which we should get from the authors of that infamous boundary system, the British Government, there is no doubt in the world that the end of Partition will come. I hope no Senator or public representative will be weak-kneed enough, or backward enough, to refuse to take a stand publicly on the side of the fence which represents the peace, progress and prosperity of this country in the future, and that no reasons of sentiment, shyness or fear will prevent people using their influence, as far as they can, either through the Press, from the pulpit, over the radio, or in conversation, from taking a determined stand against the type of action which has disgraced the good name of this country in the past few weeks.

Mr. Donegan

Senator Mullins will forgive me if I address my first remarks to his speech. He is the highly successful general-secretary of the largest political Party in the country. I wondered why he was so successful. To be honest, I also wondered how that political Party achieved quite a lot of its success and, having listened for one and a half hours to Senator Mullins, I think I have rather got the secret of it. The way to be successful in Ireland apparently is to wrap the green flag round you, rattle the bones as best you can and, with a nicely-turned phrase now and again on the culture of ancient Ireland and what we have got to do to preserve it, you can be sure you are on a good safe bet. You have offended nobody. You have produced nothing of value for the country, and you have made no constructive approach to the Appropriation Bill. You have given nobody any ideas but most certainly you have proved beyond yea or nay that you, and everything to which you are affiliated are Irish, and Irish to the core.

There were parts of his speech which were good. I will not say it was all good but the main line, the whole theme, was rattle the bones and wrap the old green flag around you. I hope Ireland will grow out of that. I hope it will produce people who will get up here and make constructive criticism, even of our nationalism, if such is required. Having said so much, I shall now come to the Appropriation Bill.

The Bill was drafted in rather extraordinary circumstances this year because, with the arrival of the general election, the Book of Estimates was printed without an opportunity of the previous Government to make the normal economies made in every Estimate, except those economies that had been decided upon up to the period approximately two months before the general election. The first statement of the ex-Minister for Finance on Budget day was to that effect and that statement was not denied in the other House. No further economies had been made except those made during the year. There had been no series of meetings of the previous Cabinet at which they could decide to economise or alter the Book of Estimates. That was the fact and the present Minister for Finance said he was rather in the same position. Here we are with a Book of Estimates that in effect did not represent the complete wish of either Party. All we can do is to take this Book of Estimates in conjunction with the broad lines of the present Government's policy as stated publicly in the House and out of it.

I find that the main items of expenditure publicly adopted by the present Government, in addition to the Book of Estimates, are as follows: a decision to spend an extra £900,000 on main roads and a statement that it was to be borrowed, without any information being afforded on where it was to be borrowed from. Secondly, there was a statement that the Government had decided to spend £1,000,000, either in part or in whole this year, on new runways at Shannon. Thirdly, there has been the rather obvious expenditure that I have noticed since the general election in the tearing up of all the tramlines in Dublin City at a time of very rigid and stringent necessity for the Government.

Working on that broad picture, and taking in conjunction with it the information I received this morning from the agenda of my own county council, of which I am proud to be a member, that the Local Authorities (Works) Act will not be operative this year, and that Louth County Council will get no local authorities works grants, I must form the conclusion that the present Government has decided, beyond yea or nay, that they will do what they said they would do at the election, put husbands out to work, but that is not being approached in a manner which will give those men, who are now to get a palliative of a few months' employment on these ventures, any assurance that there will be a job for them to keep them from the emigrant ship this day six months or 12 months.

It is futile for me in a gathering such as this, where there are so many politicians sitting around, to recall the Budget of 1952. You all know about it and you all know that this happened before. It has not happened now in as sweeping a manner as it happened before, but without doubt it is in the course of happening. You all know that what happened in 1952 and all that it meant had passed away by 1954. The Irish people naturally, if you create taxation, will seek to reach again the standard of living which they enjoyed before taxation was increased. If you spend money on unproductive works which should be postponed in a time of national stringency, you will find yourself back where you were in not more than two or three years.

I have made reference in broad outline to a total expenditure of £2,000,000. Whether it is to be spent this year—money will certainly be spent on the main roads this year—on the runways at Shannon or not, I cannot tell, but I do know that amount will be spent. I pose the question to the Government as to how it is hoped to proceed to employ the men who will complete this work for which £900,000 is provided for main roads and for the runways at Shannon. Is it the Fianna Fáil Party's proposal that while it is in power all the capital expenditure of this country is to be directed, not towards the building of a factory which may create 500 new permanent jobs but towards short-term palliative measures which still seal up the political hole which has been created by their own misgovernment in the past, or are they in earnest about creating, if possible, productive jobs which will last forever and a day?

I should like to discuss in some detail some of the items in the Book of Estimates, and first I would turn to agriculture. I am sorry that that decent man, Senator Moylan, has left the Minister's chair because I wanted to ask him what political principle or political honesty is attached to the behaviour of the Government in relation to the wheat crop? It is right and proper that these things should be worked out here and that anything that has been done that is not honest, that does not show integrity or political principle, should be exposed.

I want to put it to the Fianna Fáil Party, that in every parish in rural Ireland where wheat was grown and in every Fianna Fáil cumann all over the country, there was a constant harping on the fact that the ex-Minister for Agriculture had the unpleasant necessity of going to a bad fair for the Irish farmers and taking a bad price for wheat, a price dictated by conditions over which he had no control, a price dictated by the advent of granulated fertiliser, and by the advent of the combine harvester. If the ex-Minister for Agriculture went to a bad fair and took a bad price for wheat, it was the best price he could get, and if there was any political honesty or integrity in the then opposition that fact would have been admitted, that he had got the best price he could get for the Irish farmer in any market in the world.

Through their political backs in every parish in Ireland, Fianna Fáil spent a total of 12 months harping at the farmer about the price of wheat. It was done also through the Back Bench members in the Dáil, but not through their Front Bench members, not by the people whose heads might roll but by the people in regard to whom it did not matter whether their heads rolled or not. There was this constant repetition that the price of wheat would increase if Fianna Fáil took office and that the price of wheat was reduced by the previous Government.

Mr. Lenihan

Quote your reference.

Mr. Donegan

Deputy Corry, about 200 times in the Dáil, and two motions by ex-Senator Cogan in the Seanad. Are any more references wanted?

Mr. Lenihan

Quote them.

Mr. Donegan

Two motions at our committee of agriculture meeting and about three at every county council meeting in areas where wheat is grown. The most concerted attack ever made on a Minister for Agriculture was made on the former Minister, but when the Fianna Fáil Party came into power, it refused point blank to increase the price of wheat and the reason given is the greatest insult ever offered to an Irish farmer. The reason given by the then acting Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Aiken, was that it was past sowing time and that an increase in the price of wheat would not increase the acreage, in a year when he knows there is a surplus of Irish wheat for the grist and in a year in which every political hack in the country and every Fianna Fáil Deputy had stated that Fianna Fáil would increase the price of wheat and that the previous Government had reduced it.

Mr. Lenihan

Quote the reference.

Mr. Donegan

Senator Lenihan, at Ballyhahill, County Limerick.

Mr. Lenihan

The Senator is making a statement about promises made by Fianna Fáil. I want him to quote what was said.

Mr. Donegan

I am asking the Senator to deny his own words.

Mr. Lenihan

That promise was never made, that the price of wheat would go up after an election.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Lenihan will have an opportunity of speaking later. It is better, for the sake of order, to allow Senator Donegan to continue his speech.

Mr. Donegan

I now come to a matter which I think is of great interest, agricultural marketing. As well as looking towards the Commonwealth of Nations for markets, being in fact the British market, all the nations of Europe look to Europe for progress as the years go by in this matter of agricultural marketing. There are certain types of agricultural produce which ordinary businessmen find it difficult successfully to market in large amounts. In many countries efforts have been made to get over that difficulty. In Denmark, Holland and other places they have got very far in their system of marketing agricultural produce.

We, too, must get down to it. I was delighted when I heard that the present Government voted a sum of £250,000 to be spent this year on agricultural marketing, but I was rather disappointed at a statement made here by the Minister for Agriculture when he said he had an open mind about the whole affair, that he had no ideas about it. I wonder if this £250,000 will be spent at all this year. Is this just a political vote? Can anyone think up in 12 months an effective way of marketing Irish agricultural produce and have it brought to a stage that would absorb on marketing methods in Britain and Europe the total sum of £250,000?

I would urge upon the Government to speed this matter up. If at present they have no plan to improve the marketing methods for agricultural produce, I would urge them to take all the advice they can get on the matter from organisations such as Macra na Feirme, Muintir na Tíre and the I.A.O.S.—in fact from all the organisations they find competent to advise them. There is a figure of £109,000 included in the Estimates under the Grain Storage Loans Act. I believe that all this Vote will be absorbed in the settling of old accepted applications, not yet paid out.

The former Minister for Agriculture did a very good job in awakening the farmers, the grain dealers, the millers and others to the great need that existed for new drying and storage facilities. I am afraid there has been a slowing down in the effort to provide these facilities. The present Minister for Agriculture has not told what the position now is. I want to assure him that there is a grave necessity for more storage and drying facilities. If new applications are made it is necessary that they should be examined and that, if they are bona fide, they should be granted. It is rather too late now this year to provide new storage, but I should point out that if we do not succeed this harvest in gathering in, drying and storing our bountiful harvest crops, the farmers will have lost the confidence placed in those crops. Farmers must have confidence, when growing crops, that at harvest time the crops will be taken off their hands. Accordingly, it is of the utmost importance that we provide drying and storage facilities in the corn growing areas.

I was amazed this year to notice in the Book of Estimates that the grant for the pasteurisation of skim milk has not been increased. There is no doubt about the necessity for the provision of a bigger sum than £160,000 for that purpose. I have heard both the present Minister and Deputy Dillon stress the importance of the installation of more pasteurisation plants in creameries. The Department of Agriculture give a grant of 50 per cent. of the cost for the installation of these plants. This is absolutely top level policy and is of the highest importance if we are to succeed in our efforts to wipe out bovine tuberculosis. If we do not do that, we shall be unable to market our cattle.

One of the important steps in our campaign to eradicate tuberculosis in our cattle herds is to ensure that the disease is not spread by calves. Supposing the milk from one to ten cows suffering from tuberculosis is distributed, by way of skim milk from creameries, to hundreds of calves, we shall then be helping to spread bovine tuberculosis, not wiping it out. I therefore consider it essential that the Government should this year spend more than £160,000 on the provision of pasteurisation plants. I earnestly urge them to increase expenditure under this heading.

I am glad to see that the Government are prepared to spent £10,050 on the pig progeny testing station. This was an important aspect of the work of the last Minister for Agriculture. Last year, when introducing his Estimate, he was in a position to give us some interesting figures on tests carried out on our own Large White pigs which compared very favourably with the Danish Landrace or any other breed propagated in large numbers in any country in the world today. It is right that, before we change over, if we have to do that, there should be very stringent tests. It is also right that we should try to keep whatever breed we intend maintaining here free from disease. This, to my mind, is a project which should forever remain as an important facet of our agricultural policy. Its inauguration is a tribute to the previous Minister for Agriculture.

Another aspect of the previous Minister's work reflects itself in the Book of Estimates in the form of increased grants to agricultural colleges. Let us compare the years 1947 and 1957 in this respect. In 1947 the Government paid to these colleges £76,613. In 1957 the Government, in which Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture, gave a total of £326,331. These colleges have done a tremendous job in preparing young farmers for careers on the land. In every phase of agricultural activity, whether it be the National Farmers' Association, Macra na Feirme or Muintir na Tíre, you will find as leaders boys who have been trained in agricultural colleges. That would not have been possible were it not for the foresight and the insistence of Deputy Dillon down through the years from 1947.

I was delighted to see in the Book of Estimates that the figure this year for An Foras Tionscal is £400,000, an increase of £100,000. Here we have the agency which distributes grants to new industries. Mark you, this business of grants to new industries is something which every future Government in Ireland, and this Government as well, must look into. In Northern Ireland, it is rather extraordinary to record, the Government has built factories without anybody to put into them and I have at home in my files a booklet issued by the Northern Ireland Ministry giving plans and photographs of empty factory premises built with Government money, in the hope that somebody would come from abroad—or somebody from at home, if he had money—and ask them for premises, rent them, and start a factory to employ people.

I put it to the Seanad: would it not be far better for the present Government to vote £900,000 for the creation of factory space, in the hope that they would create 100 or 200 new jobs, than what they have done, namely, decided to spend an extra £900,000 on main roads? Would it not be far better if we had in or around cities and towns empty factory buildings which would, in fact, be available to any industrialist from abroad? Would that not be a progressive move? The snag, of course, is that that sort of thing involves a great deal of machinery, and it will not heal up political trouble in some way over a month or so, but without doubt it would heal up the economic problem, at least in a little way, in years to come.

I want to say again that one job created permanently is worth 100 Fianna Fáil jobs created by means of the Bray road scheme and the Store Street Bus Station, the main roads or the runways at Shannon or anything else you care to name. Just one job created permanently, of real benefit and giving real production, is worth all the money ever spent on these monstrosities that we can see around, such as the plan for the new Parliament buildings.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not provided for in this Bill.

Mr. Donegan

I have certainly not gone as far as Senator Mullins went. To sum up, as far as I can see from the Appropriation Bill, we have in it evidence of a great dishonesty on the part of Fianna Fáil with regard to the price of wheat and the price of milk. There is evidence in it that Fianna Fáil, like the leopard, did not change its spots, and is reverting to the old time-honoured practice of sealing up political troubles by creating unproductive employment which can only be temporary. That evidence is contained in the decision reached by the Government to spend £1,000,000 on the runways at Shannon and to spend £900,000 on main roads. There is also evidence of this in the fact that they are at present tearing up the Dublin tramlines, and in the fact that where there is no organised labour, where there are isolated, poor, unfortunate county council labourers working here and there all over the country living in single cottages, where they cannot congregate and walk up Kildare Street and cause trouble, the Local Authorities (Works) Act grants have been discontinued.

That is the evidence laid before me. I therefore believe that Fianna Fáil has no hope of completing its term of office. They have not the slightest hope of perpetrating this fraud on the people because inside two years the money will be gone and there will not be any production to show for it. I would, in fact, question what validity there is in spending £900,000 on main roads and borrowing the money. The Government has not stated where they are borrowing it, but I presume it is from the Local Loans Fund and, if it is, in the end, it may well come from the commercial banks. If that happens, as it happened before, I want to put it to the Seanad that in a situation like that, there is more money for the Government concerned to seal up its own political troubles and there is very much less money for the private businessman who has to employ men.

If, in fact, Fianna Fáil continues on this line, on which they have without doubt begun, there is no doubt that every man who is in productive employment in small businesses in the country or in large businesses where it is not possible to carry on without big overdraft accommodation, is in danger of losing his job. But for the action of the former Minister for Finance in curtailing expenditure in the last six months of the previous financial year, those men would by now have lost their jobs. It is easy to seal up this sort of thing as a palliative, and I believe that Fianna Fáil have started on that road again, and that is the road to destruction.

Mr. O'Callaghan

It is an easy matter to deal with the Appropriation Bill, if you have the money to do so. To provide the money for the Appropriation Bill, it is necessary to have agriculture flourishing because that is the main source of money here.

The previous speaker referred to loans for the drying and storing of grain. I think he indicated he was a merchant, but I am speaking as a farmer, and I wonder whether the loans for drying and storing grain are given mainly to merchants or are they also given to the farmers? The day has come when the combine harvester is in use generally and when farmers find it necessary to have drying facilities. If there are no arrangements for giving loans to farmers, I think that is a matter which should be looked into because facilities for drying and storing grain on the farm will be needed for the big harvests.

The previous speaker also referred to pasteurisation. We talked so much about that last week that I thought we had said enough on the subject, but I believe one cannot say too much about it. In fact, it is so important we ought to discuss it at every opportunity and the Senator has done a service by speaking on it. No doubt it is the main problem connected with bovine tuberculosis.

He also referred to progeny testing of pigs and we have come to the stage now where we are doing something in that line at last. I am interested in the progeny testing of valuable bulls at the insemination stations. Some of these bulls cost a lot of money.

Debate adjourned.

The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 11th July, 1957.