I should like to express my disappointment with this Bill and with the general attitude of the Minister on the whole question of the imposition of duties. When the Minister came back to see us here in the Seanad after the change of Government I expressed the hope that we should see some change of policy between the new Government and the old. He assured me in ringing tones that I should see a very big change. On this particular issue, I see no change at all, or, if any, I see a change for the worse.
Senator McGuire has referred to the fact that the Minister has been quoted widely as speaking rather as if he intends to change the policy of the Government in relation to protective tariffs. I am afraid we must, in fact, judge what he intends to do by what he does. In the Irish Times of 6th March, 1958, there is a report of a speech made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce at the official opening of Irish Week at the N.A.I.D.A. headquarters. He is quoted as saying:—
"It is right, therefore, for us to decide even now that if and when a European economic arrangement, embracing all the countries of Western Europe, including Britain, comes into being, it is more likely than not that we will elect to go into it, and to begin now the reconsideration of economic aims and policies which such a decision would force on us."
We needed, he stressed, to start building up greater confidence in our industrial potentialities. I do not feel that, in introducing fresh tariffs and fresh duties, and in increasing old duties, the Minister is demonstrating, in practice, any change of heart.
On 28th March, 1957, we debated this same type of Bill with the same Minister. In Volume 47 of the Official Seanad Report, column 327, I am quoted as saying:—
"I should like to hear from the Minister something, at any rate.... of the Government's general attitude towards the imposition in future of such protective tariffs and duties as are confirmed in this Imposition of Duties Bill."
At column 328, I am further reported as follows:—
"Could the Minister say whether the Government has under consideration the possibility of having something like a descending scale of duty for the protection of a given commodity being newly manufactured in this country? It seems legitimate to me that we should give reasonably efficient new industries starting here a measure of protection in what one might call their formative years, the years when they are being set up, installed and are exploring markets and perhaps learning a little by their mistakes. It seems quite legitimate that we should give them perhaps even a high measure of protection, but it is equally legitimate that we, as representatives of the people, should expect that, if the industry is thriving and has in fact been learning, it will improve down the years in efficiency, and, as it improves in efficiency, will require a decreasing amount of protection."
The Minister seemed at that time to listen with some sympathy to that point of view. He is reported in the same debate at column 332 as saying:—
"There certainly will be cases where a higher rate of duty at the beginning of an industry might be regarded as necessary, even though there could be at the time a determination to reduce it later when the need to interrupt trade connections and to turn the minds of buyers to the need for securing their requirements from Irish factories has been made."
The Minister has many times in public talked as if he were going to have some new policy on general protection of industries, and so on, but to-day we are confronted with an Imposition of Duties Bill for the confirmation of 15 new or increased duties, and there is not a single duty being reduced by this Bill, and not a single one being abolished.
I was equally critical of the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Norton, but I remember several occasions upon which the then Minister brought in an Imposition of Duties Bill which actually contained proposals for reducing and even abolishing certain duties. Therefore, on the question of protective tariffs the Minister is doing rather less than his predecessor to abolish or reduce these duties which, apparently in theory, he is in favour of reducing. I wonder why that is so.
I notice in a memorandum sent out to all of us on "Ireland and the Free Trade Area" by the Minister's Department, there is in paragraph 12, page 7, a sub-paragraph which talks about the rhythm of tariff reduction that will take place if we go into this Free Trade Area. I quote sub-paragraph (a):—
"In the first four-years stage a series of reductions will take place after one year, i.e., on 1st January, 1959; a second reduction 18 months later; and a third 18 months later again."
Perhaps I am unkind in wondering whether this future prospect has something to do with what we are now doing. We are like people who are about to have a "colossal sale" and who, in order to slash prices later, put them up well in advance. I wonder whether we are not putting on duties now simply for the purpose of cutting them in relation to the Free Trade Area, with a great flourish on the 1st January, 1959. Are we putting on new duties now for the cutting of which we will make an ostensible sacrifice if this Free Trade Area comes about?
I do not wish to delay the House, but I do not think we should let each of these items go without some comment. I am not going to mention more than four of them. The first item is the 100 per cent. tariff duty on wheaten breakfast foods. That is 100 per cent. protection with 66 2/3rds. for U.K. and Canada. I should have liked to hear the Minister defending the size of this tariff. We can defend tariffs, protection and so on, but is it really necessary, for the sake of the Irish trade, to put on as big a tariff as 100 per cent? Are we not running the danger of giving them over-protection, and perhaps rendering them weak and enfeebled in this kind of conservatory atmosphere we build around them by such gigantic protection?
The second point I want to make is about an exception in the application of this duty, that is, to exclude from the duty preparations "intended primarily for the consumption by infants and invalids." The intention of the exclusion is admirable, but how is it to be interpreted? How can one ensure that a particular wheaten breakfast food is "intended" not solely but "primarily" for consumption by infants and invalids? How do you know whether an invalid is consuming a breakfast food because he is an invalid or because he likes breakfast food? In other words, I am questioning the possibility of conveniently interpreting such an Order. What kind of court, or what officer of the Revenue Commissioners, will be able to decide whether a given preparation is intended—intended, mark you—primarily for consumption by infants and invalids?
The next point refers to item 4 in the explanatory memorandum and deals with an additional duty of 6/- each on men's shirts not exceeding 8/- in value. The value is 8/- and an extra 6/- is put on. There is also 4/- put on boys' shirts not exceeding 5/- in value. It is quite obvious that that is a very big tariff. The Minister has said that it is to save us from cheap shirts from the Far East, but I would point out that this type of shirt is the kind which will be bought by the poorer sections of our community, and it is the mothers and fathers who are seeking to clothe their children inexpensively and who have not got very much money to do it, who will be tempted to buy the 5/- shirt for their boys. Under this Order that becomes a 9/- shirt. We are putting a prohibitive tariff on goods destined exclusively for the use of the poorer sections of the community. I would object very strongly to that particular duty.
The other two I would mention relate to agriculture—the fifth and sixth in this explanatory memorandum. One is on certain agricultural forks, and the other on certain power drawn agricultural machinery. On the last occasion when we had an Imposition of Duties Bill before us in March of last year I proposed one amendment to delete a part of the Schedule referring to agricultural machinery and I was faintly surprised, shall I say, to find that in this vocational Seanad, which has agricultural representatives in it, I did not get support from any representative of the farmers in the Seanad, for the deletion of this particular duty, though even the Minister has said that the Irish companies were in fact producing as cheaply as the English, the implication being that if the Irish farmer had a choice, at even prices, he bought in preference foreign agricultural machinery.
The Minister has told us, in relation to Item 5, the duty on agricultural forks, that this is mainly to protect the output of home firms against Continental articles which are being brought in. But the customs duty is 30 per cent. full, and still 20 per cent. for U.K. and Canada. Therefore, it is not by any means solely against Continental products which are being "more or less dumped", as he states, but also against U.K. products. This is an increased charge upon our agricultural community, and it is being put on at a time when it has been increasingly difficult for the agricultural community to buy the equipment, the tools and the machinery which are found necessary in modern agriculture. Consequently, I intend to propose the deletion of these two portions of the Schedule also, and I hope I shall have the support of Senators representing farming interests.
We are not entitled in the Seanad to propose amendments to this type of Bill, but we can make recommendations, and I propose on the Committee Stage to make recommendations, or ask the Seanad to agree to proposed recommendations, for the deletion of the Orders—we cannot amend them— relating to wheaten breakfast foods where 100 per cent. is put on, and to these cheaper quality shirts, and the two items regarding agricultural machinery.
Senator McQuire has told us most vehemently that he is not in favour of protecting inefficient industry, and quite genuinely he misunderstood my references to him earlier on. I never mistook him for one who defended this stupid and excessive protection. I think anybody who knows his record knows that he does not stand for that kind of protection of inefficient industry; and he will see from the report that I never even implied that he did. On the contrary, I implied that he is the sort of representative of Irish industry and commerce who would strongly favour the reduction of tariffs and the abolition of them where possible. His speech to-night confirmed that view of mine. I do find it most disappointing, though, when, having said what he did say, he then says he is in favour of these 15 new tariffs, some of them going up to 100 per cent., and is prepared to vote for the Bill. I find that disappointing, and I hope there will be some other Senators who will support me when I beg leave, on the Committee Stage, to propose a recommendation regarding these four deletions from the Schedule.