Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 1960

Vol. 52 No. 19

Criminal Justice Bill, 1960—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is a simple Bill which proposes to introduce into the law, governing the treatment of offenders, a number of minor changes which experience has shown to be desirable.

The first of these is the grant of parole to convicted prisoners. The necessity for making such an amendment of the law was first borne in on me shortly after I took office when an application for parole was made by a prisoner whose mother was dying and had expressed a wish to see her son. The circumstances were so tragic that I decided to grant the application although I was advised that I had no statutory authority to do so and that if the prisoner chose not to return to prison after a temporary release there would be no way of compelling him to return. In fact, this prisoner did return when the period of parole expired. Later, I had similar cases brought to my notice and I decided that it would be a good thing and in the interest of the rehabilitation of prisoners to have a power of parole for special cases. I intend to use the power sparingly but, perhaps, in time it may be possible to extend it to selected prisoners serving long sentences where this would be likely to help to rehabilitate them in society. I may consider granting it also to selected prisoners at Christmas. I shall feel my way as I go along and the extent to which parole is granted will depend on how the early cases honour their parole.

Secondly, parole facilities are being provided for criminal lunatics who are not regarded as dangerous to themselves or to others. In this case no more is involved than extending to criminal lunatics what can already be done for other mental patients at the discretion of the Chief Medical Officer of the hospital concerned but, in the case of criminal lunatics, it has been considered advisable to require the consent of the Minister for Justice to the grant of parole. As in the case of some prisoners, parole will be granted to mentally afflicted persons for short periods to enable them to adjust themselves to conditions in the outside world before their final discharge. For some patients, perhaps, it might not be too much to say that temporary releases of this kind will go a very long way towards eventual restoration to full mental health.

It is necessary to ensure that those released on parole can be compelled to return and the relevant provisions are contained in sections 5, 6, and 7 of the Bill.

Section 8 of the Bill is designed to help to relieve the present position of having the criminal lunatics now in district mental hospitals concentrated in the hospitals near Limerick, Portlaoise and Mountjoy Prisons. Under the present law criminal lunatics must be sent to the district mental hospital in the area in which they are liable to be confined in prison: the provisions of Section 8 will enable a criminal lunatic to be sent to any district mental hospital. It is being provided, in addition that any criminal lunatic may be sent to the Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum, and be transferred from there to any district mental hospital. These provisions are in the interests of both the patients and the hospital authorities. The patients can be located in institutions nearer to their homes and relatives. Those of them whose treatment requires reasonable freedom of movement within an institution but who are prone to escape can be transferred to an institution such as the Central Mental Hospital where adequate precautions can be taken.

The remaining provisions of the Bill are concerned with the treatment of young offenders. The object of these provisions is to keep young offenders who may not yet be set in their ways from association with habitual criminals. Section 9, for example authorises the Courts to remand young offenders in custody to a remand institution, with their consent. For girls, the remand institution will normally be a convent. Not a great many are involved, just a couple at a time up to a maximum of about 30 a year. I am indebted to His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin, whose interest in youth problems needs no stressing on my part, for having kindly arranged to have St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum, Seán MacDermott Street, made available as a remand institution. I have no doubt that other convents will be willing to accept girls on this basis also. Only a very few girls of other religious denominations are remanded in custody but I shall be glad to co-operate with the Church authorities concerned with a view to providing similar facilities for these girls as far as may be practicable.

As regards a remand institution for youths, the question of adapting portion of St. Patrick's Institution for the purpose is under active consideration. St. Patrick's is, of course, the Institution for youths sentenced to Borstal detention and also for youths between sixteen and twenty-one years of age who have been sentenced to imprisonment but who have been transferred to the Institution under the provisions of section 3 of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908. Since 1956, when the Institution was transferred from Clonmel to Dublin by my predecessor it has been the practice to transfer to St. Patrick's virtually all prisoners under 21 and now, out of a total population of about 91 youths only 36 are Borstal detainees undergoing the prescribed minimum sentence of two years. The remainder are serving short sentences, usually for not more than three months.

The Bill recognises this situation by authorising the Courts to sentence young offenders between 16 and 21 years direct to St. Patrick's instead of to prison. It also proposes to drop the use of the term "Borstal", although the power of the Courts to send offenders to detention in the Institution for a minimum period of two years, in the same circumstances as offenders can at present be sent to Borstal, is being preserved.

General criticism of our prison administration does not make sufficient allowance, on the one hand, for the practical difficulties that have to be faced and for the need for detention to act as a deterrent and, on the other, for the solid good work that is being done by the staff of St. Patrick's and the voluntary workers who have interested themselves in the work of rehabilitation. The youths in St. Patrick's are kept fully occupied from day to day; many of them receive instruction in useful crafts; they have facilities for healthy recreation, both indoor and outdoor; they have lectures of an educational or religious character; a most enthusiastic Visiting Committee and Welfare Association interest themselves in the youths practically individually; and, what is of importance, too, there is a full-time Catholic Chaplain and a Church of Ireland Chaplain to advise them and to minister to their spiritual needs.

Whatever defects the Institution may have, I have no doubt that the efforts of all concerned in its day-to-day administration go a long way towards overcoming them. I am satisfied that a proper balance is being maintained between the discipline which is essential in any institution—but particularly in an institution where most of the inmates are young men many of whom have been convicted several times of serious crimes, including crimes of violence—and the humaneness which must be extended to fellow-creatures whose offences, in many cases, are due, in part at least, to bad environment or bad upbringing or lack of education or mental retardation. Many glowing tributes to the work being carried on in St. Patrick's and to the manner in which the buildings have been adapted to institutional needs have been paid by visitors with experience of such institutions abroad.

Of course, in an ideal situation where cost need not be counted, young offenders, youths and girls, would be classified into three or four or more categories, for example, remands, short-term offenders, long-term offenders, maladjusted offenders, etc., and separate institutions including some of the "open" type, established for each separate category in various parts of the country. The cost of doing so would be entirely extravagant in relation to the number of offenders concerned in this country.

At present the prison service costs the taxpayer around £4,200 a week or £220,000 a year for keeping a daily average of 475 prisoners. This cost would be enormously increased if a number of new institutions, with separate staffs and amenities, were established. And, apart from cost, the number of persons likely to be sent by the Courts to the institutions might easily be so low as to make it impracticable to run them at all. For example, over the last ten years the daily average of Borstal detainees has not exceeded 24. In these circumstances it would be hard to contemplate establishing an institution exclusively for such offenders.

All this is not to say that I do not realise the importance of trying to ensure that a period spent in detention will help to turn the offender away from the path of crime. But it would be wrong to ignore the difficulties I have referred to or the amount of good work which is being done, quietly, in this respect by people who are determined to make the best use of the existing facilities. To a large extent St. Patrick's Institution is still in a development stage and it will not be possible to assess its worth until experience has been gained of the operation of the provisions of section 13 of the Bill, which allow the Courts to send offenders direct to it. It would be premature to consider major changes of an administrative character before such a review takes place.

In conclusion, I should like to express the hope that the modest reforms which the Bill proposes will meet with the approval of the House and that the Bill will come into force with the least possible delay.

I should like to say that we on this side of the House welcome the Bill and particularly the introduction of the parole clause. It seems extraordinary that, in 1960, there was no clause which enabled the appropriate Minister, the Minister for Justice, to parole a prisoner for the humane reasons outlined, or any similar reason. It is only in accord with normal living in civilised countries that there should be such a provision and while it was extraordinary that none existed, I think the Minister was quite right in allowing that prisoner home to see his mother before she died. The Minister was placed in a situation where he had to take a personal risk which could react against him even from the point of view of questions being asked in the other House. In my view, it would have been wrong for him not to have taken that risk. I must congratulate him on doing that.

His most instructive and very reasonable statement on St. Patrick's we welcome also. The situation is very difficult. There are these delinquents, and particularly in the city of Dublin the situation has become such that crimes of violence are not unusual.

I do not think the Minister said the criminals were all from Dublin.

They are a little bit further afield, too.

Dublin, is the largest city in Ireland, and there are usually greater numbers in the larger cities than in the smaller towns. As I was saying, the position is very difficult inasmuch as there are these delinquents who have perpetrated crimes of violence and with whom it was necessary to be tough. At the same time, we must have regard to their youthfulness and to the hope that even the most hardened among them may turn away from what they have been doing, and become proper and useful citizens. For that reason, I think that the underlining by the Minister, not only of the discipline necessary in St. Patrick's, but also of the welfare committees and the attempts at rehabilitation was a proper and fair approach to the problem. I think these minor changes were necessary and I am glad they are being put through.

There is nothing in this Bill against which anyone can speak, with the exception of one section. The rest of the Bill wins the approval of all but there is one section in the Bill which aroused my indignation. I think it was thoughtlessness that caused it to be inserted, because I do not think any adult person in this country is unaware of the connotation of St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum.

There is no corrective institution in Ireland for girl delinquents. When they go before a court and are found guilty of the offence with which they are charged, there is only one course open —they must be sent to prison. There is no provision for them such as there is for boys. This Bill is concerned in one section with removing the stigma of "Borstal boy" from male juvenile delinquents. That is right because after all "Borstal" is an internationally known term and carries with it a certain stigma. In Section 9 of this Bill, the Minister proposes that we permit unconvicted girl delinquents to be sent to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum until they come up for trial, and any girl delinquent before she is convicted will be legally committed to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum and suffer for the rest of her life the stigma of having at one time been an inmate of that asylum.

I do not think there is any member of this House who is ignorant of what the stigma would mean to a girl if she had mended her ways, if she had been corrected and was leading a normal and upright life, and had to spend the rest of her life in the fear and terror of being charged with having in her youth been an inmate of St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum. I think to a girl when she becomes an adult the stigma of having been a "Magdalen" is even greater than would be the stigma of having been a "Borstal boy" for a boy delinquent when he becomes an adult.

This Bill provides that a girl will have the choice, when she is being remanded, of going to prison or to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum but the girl juvenile delinquents who go before a court may choose to go to the asylum under the nuns rather than go to prison while they are on remand, not knowing, not realising how the term "Magdalen" can work against her in after life.

If I were asked to advise girl delinquents, no matter what offences they were charged with, whether to go to prison on remand, or to go to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum on remand, I would advise them wholeheartedly to choose prison, because I think having a record of having been in prison as a juvenile delinquent would not be so detrimental to the after life of the girl as to have it legally recorded that she was an inmate of St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum.

I think it was through thoughtlessness only that, when the Minister was looking for some place to put these girls, instead of prison, he allowed himself to accept that asylum and did not consider all the implications of sending them there, while on remand. I hope that now I have brought the point home to him, he will find some other convent, or establish a St. Brigid's, as a sister institution to St. Patrick's for these girls while they are on remand.

My remarks on this Bill will be very brief because it is a measure which does not lend itself to long discussion. I must say that while I have a certain amount of sympathy with the point of view put forward by Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien as to a stigma being attached to young girls who are sent to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum, I am afraid the Senator overlooks the fact that no young girl can be sent there without her consent——

Yes, but that is asking the girl to place the stigma on herself.

——so I think the position is not as the Senator represents it to be. After all, there must be some place of detention for such young girls who are remanded in custody for whatever time is thought to be necessary. However, the Minister is perhaps better able to deal with this question than I. I do not know whether it would be possible to find alternative and more suitable accommodation, but perhaps it will, as time goes on.

I welcome this Bill because I think it represents a more enlightened and a more humanitarian outlook on this question of criminal justice. There is an awareness now obviously that it is not merely the idea to administer punishment to offenders of the type envisaged in this Bill that is to be the criterion, but also to do something towards the correction and rehabilitation of the people concerned. When the major statutes dealing with criminal justice were passed, the conditions of life were dissimilar to what they are now. We are living in a more enlightened age and therefore we have to deal with these problems on that basis. As regards the young offenders, they are a special problem in themselves. It is right to say that in many cases these young offenders find themselves where they are because of their upbringing, because of lack of parental control, and negligence on the part of their parents. That must always be taken into consideration.

The elimination of the word "Borstal" is a step in the right direction. That word has been handed down to us from other days, but at the same time, it must be admitted that the Borstal idea was a good one as far as it worked. The only thing that can be said is that the young people who are committed to that institution are not kept there long enough, but probably that is due to circumstances over which we have no control, because, as the Minister said, there are only a very few people committed to that institution.

Our present system as a whole is a reasonably good one, no matter what criticisms may be levelled against it. There is a way of ascertaining whether the system is working properly or not, through the medium of the visiting committees, and as far as I am aware there have been no recent complaints about the way in which prisoners are being treated in the prisons. As I said, this is a Bill which does not lend itself to much discussion. I welcome it because I think its provisions are the product of enlightened thought and consideration.

Senator Ó Ciosáin has skated over a very important point. A girl chooses where she will go—to prison or to this home—but in fact she does not know what she is choosing. That is Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien's point. The Bill is tremendously welcome, but for that point, and the Minister should answer it and give great thought to it. It is the most significant part of the Bill and requires profound and serious thought.

We are all agreed that the concern on, the part of the Minister and the Government which has prompted the introduction of this Bill is a very good thing and something to be welcomed. I have said before in the presence of the Minister's predecessor on the Appropriation Bill that we should have a far more radical change in our penal code. I welcome this Bill as at least a valuable first step towards that. I have always felt that in this country where many of our leaders, to their credit, have known the inside of jails, we have been very slow to change the conditions about which first-hand experience should have made us more compassionate in relation to the ordinary prisoner. The Minister in introducing this Bill is going very much in the right direction.

This is the kind of reform that is required, and his own stressing of the introduction of parole facilities was a very valuable symbol of the spirit in which this kind of reform of the penal code is being tackled, because, to my mind, one of the most valuable things you can give a prisoner is trust. It is one of the most reforming things you can give him. It may occasionally be abused but that is very rare indeed. The Minister is certainly to be commended for laving emphasis on the value of allowing prisoners out on parole and giving them this very precious gift of official trust.

The Minister threw out some figures, and some of them were startling. I noticed that it costs £10 a week to keep a prisoner. I think I am right in saying that, because he mentioned 400 prisoners and £4,000 a week. I wonder are we as a State getting full value for that, or is it, owing to antiquated buildings and equipment, being wastefully spent. Could we or the prisoners get better value for that £10 a week? There are other places where they could stay for £10 a week and have a much more entertaining time than can be afforded to them for that figure at present. On the other side, is good value being given to the citizens?

I should like to come briefly to details of the Bill. First, Section 1 gives a definition of remand institutions, but the definition is not so illuminating because it refers simply to any institution which the Minister may approve. I should like to ask the Minister what kind of characteristics he will seek in an institution before he will give it his approval and recognise it as a valid remand institution.

That brings me to the point raised by Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien and supported by Senator Carton. This is the question of the choice put to a girl who might perhaps be charged with petty pilfering, shop-lifting or something of that kind, of going to a Magdalen Home or jail while on remand—that is to say, a person who is presumed to be innocent. I feel (a) that the choice is not a very full choice, and (b) that, as Senator Carton has said in reply to Senator Ó Ciosáin, the girl might not by any means realise all the implications of the choice. It might be put up to her in particularly nice terms:—"Would you rather go to jail or to the nuns?", without even mentioning what type of convent is in question. The Magdalen Homes might treat her with every consideration and compassion, but, as Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien has mentioned, it is a label that may well matter in her life, just as the word "Borstal" would matter in the life of a boy. Therefore I should like to add my support to what has been said in that matter.

Section 3 refers to criminal lunatics. There is no definition of a criminal lunatic, and I should like to make the suggestion that there is no such thing. I do not think a lunatic can be regarded as a criminal, and I feel that for criminality to be there, there must be responsibility, and lunacy is the lack of just that thing. I am not happy about the use of that term. The Minister is changing the word "Borstal", and his Department might well set about seeing whether it could recommend a happier phrase than "criminal lunatic". It is, in a way, an unfair term. It seems unfair to attach the label "criminal" to a mentally ill person. Therefore, although a word may be convenient and we may be aware of what is meant, I feel "criminal lunatic" is a term that might with advantage be replaced. The minister might perhaps be willing to give that matter consideration or to give us his opinion on it.

I notice in Section 9 (2), page 4, that a person shall not be detained under this section or under section 10 of this Act in a remand institution which is conducted otherwise than in accordance with the religion to which the person belongs. It sometimes arises that there is no equivalent institution of a religion or no religion to which the person adheres. Sometimes it is not found possible to find an equivalent Protestant or a Jewish institution. What is the Minister's view on what can be done if the provisions of subsection (2) are to be maintained?

I want to refer to the abolition of the word "Borstal". It is only a name. Some of us have had the opportunity of seeing a picture by a very brilliant Irish writer, Brendan Behan, in his book Borstal Boy of what a Borstal institution in Britain meant to him. The book is banned in this country. One would have to go outside the country, presumably, to read it. In fact, it is a sensitive and compassionate picture as well as a humorous and frequently irreverent one. But the sensitivity that is there enabled Brendan Behan to give a picture of the Borstal at which he was a prisoner which in large measure is sympathetic. I would even say it is a picture which recalls his gratitude for what was done for him in such an institution, though it had this name.

Bearing that in mind, I should like to ask the Minister, and I am sure I shall get a favourable reaction, to concern himself legitimately here with the name but also to concern himself with what is behind the name when changed. In other words, let us not be content simply to say: "We will not call it Borstal. We will call it another name" and that it will be the same old place.

I want to ask very specifically if the Minister is satisfied now with the conditions in St. Patrick's. He referred to the conditions and I think, in deprecating terms, suggested that it is the best we can do at the moment. It is all very well to call it "St. Patrick's" rather than "Borstal" but the Minister will agree that that is not enough and that if we abolish the name "Borstal", we must also abolish, as has been done in England without abolishing the name, the spirit that used to be regarded as "the Borstal spirit". I am not familiar with the conditions in St. Patrick's. I should like to hear from the Minister whether inside the building and in relation to the grounds, fields, accessibility of open air, and so on, he is satisfied that St. Patrick's is the best we can do for such boys.

This Bill constitutes a good step on the right road, the road towards prison reform. I believe the Bill will have to be followed by many more steps. I look forward to the introduction by the Minister of further measures of radical prison reform.

I join with other Senators in congratulating the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. Strange to relate, Senator Sheehy Skeffington has referred in extenso to the principal matter to which I wished to refer, that is, the use of the term “criminal lunatic”. All our legislation as an independent State has been directed towards doing away with the terms “lunatic asylum” and “lunatics”. We have used instead “mental hospital”, “mental home” and “mentally affected people.”

When I saw these words "criminal lunatics" in the Bill, I did not like them and I join with Senator Sheehy Skeffington in hoping that before this Bill leaves the House, the Minister and his Department will be able to use some other term, if possible, within the law as it exists. I think it can be done within the law. It struck me that we might use the expression "mentally affected persons" rather than the words "criminal lunatics".

I also appeal to the Minister to look into a matter which has already been referred to by Senator Sheehy Skeffington. The words used by Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien do not appear in the Bill. I assume the Minister has secured and was pleased to get the services of the nuns in St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum. The fact that it is not in the Bill which we are about to enact signifies that it can be changed. It lessens the strength of the argument against having a prisoner or a detainee by choice going to a convent managed and run by nuns, irrespective of the name and implication of the convent.

I object to the words "convicted prisoners". Naturally people will think that a convent so named is not a suitable place for a young girl to be detained until her case is heard. I join in the hope that some better name than "Asylum", as is referred to here in relation to the detention of young girl delinquents, will be used. There seems to be no difficulty as far as young boys are concerned in what we now call "St. Patrick's" The abolition of the "Borstal" is good. Senator Sheehy Skeffington was able seemingly to get outside the country to read Brendan Behan's description of a "Borstal".

I read it here before it was banned.

Irrespective of that, it is good to have such an institution named "St. Patrick's" and to abolish the name of "Borstal." Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the methods of dealing with juvenile delinquents? It might be appropriate to refer to the appalling incident which occurred at Crumlin Technical Schools. Some young people went into the schools and with deliberation, smashed up every desk and press and even scientific apparatus. I have an idea which might require amendment of the law. I should like to see chaps who do these things, maybe for the first time, detained in some place where they would have to work sufficiently long to earn enough money to compensate for the damage that was done. The amount of damage in this case was, I understand, £2,000.

It would be a long time before a youngster detained on a farm or in some institution could earn sufficient money to pay that amount, but what is running through my mind is that it would have a corrective influence if we had a system where a youngster would not be classified as "sentenced" or "imprisoned" but simply detained in an institution where he could earn sufficient money to compensate for the damage he and whatever associates he had caused. Perhaps this is not relevant to the Bill, but we cannot pass without thinking of the seriousness of such an incident as this where young lads can go into a school and cause such destruction for apparently no reason but to destroy.

To my mind, it would be a magnificent thing if we had a new system to deal with such young delinquents: bring them to a school and say: "You have got to work here for such a time to help at least to pay for the damage you have done." Instead of leaving young people, whether boys or girls, with the stigma of getting a sentence from any court, you could have such a system of dealing with juvenile delinquents which would also help the citizens generally.

That is all I have to say. I have referred to the naming of the girls' institute. I do not like the term "criminal lunatic" and if this could be amended in Committee, I should be glad.

This Bill, as the Minister stated at the outset, deals with a number of amendments in our prison laws. Like every other country and especially England and certain European countries, it is inevitable that we should try to move forward. It is gratifying to know that our average prison population is small and that therefore this population can be contained in very few prisons. The big trouble, as I see it, is dealing with short-term offenders. You have a higher proportion of these than of long-term detainees and it is unsatisfactory in so far as you cannot classify them, punish them or train them to certain trades. Apart from that, they may be described as "in and outers". In any country it is inevitable that you should have a higher percentage of "in and outers" than any other type of prisoner. Nevertheless, this situation entails passing legislation, taking note of it and offering opinions which might be considered helpful to the Minister in dealing with the matter.

It is gratifying also to know that prison conditions in general have improved, that, for instance, rations have become much better, that prison clothes have been changed and that taking it all in all, prisoners are now treated in a more humane fashion.

I want to make a brief point on Section 9: Senator Connolly O'Brien mentioned the Mary Magdalen Home. I do not object to the name. I do not see what is significant about it or what stigma it attaches to prisoners or to persons not committed to prison any more than any other name.

You do not know the facts of life.

It is a very fine name. She is one of the finest characters in history who played her part in one of the greatest plays ever written, if I may so describe the Gospels, the life of Our Lord. What better name could you put on an institution than "Mary Magdalen Home"?

On an appropriate institution.

We must not be too scrupulous about this matter. I can see no harm whatever in adopting this name for any institution dealing with corrective training of young—or old, for that matter.

Criminal lunacy has been mentioned and some Senators entered the realms of jurisprudence. I am not sure that the term "criminal lunacy" is inappropriate because we have various degrees of mental illness and various degrees of lunacy and again we must not go too far and err in the direction of being too lenient in the names we place on criminals of this type. It is all in the mind and it is not a very easy matter to deal with.

I am glad that the term "Borstal" is being dropped under this Bill. As we all know, the name derives from the village in England where this treatment was first tried on young offenders.

It is a good thing also that costs are rigidly related to conditions and that the number of prisoners and detainees being small, costs are kept as low as possible. It is good also that the daily average of detainees is inclined to fall and we hope that in future it will fall still lower.

The term "juvenile delinquent" often arouses a lot of sympathy to which he or she is not entitled. In my view, it might be no harm if the birch could be brought into play on juvenile delinquents, especially the "in and outers" who refused to be corrected and will not respect corrective training otherwise. I think they learned that lesson in England. Various ways of dealing with this matter were also tried in America and considerable sums of money were spent on corrective treatment of one kind or another, not always with the best results. We should not be too soft when we come to deal with the type, described here in the Bill, who refuse to respond to corrective treatment.

I, like all the other speakers, welcome this Bill. It is, to my mind, a forward step more in keeping with our ideas to-day of the treatment of prisoners. I welcome particularly the granting of parole because I know that it was a very sad note in some people's lives that they were not able to get parole. Unfortunately, they committed some error which put them in jail for a short time and tragedy happened at home. I welcome that section of the Bill very much. I know it is to a large extent experimental. Let us hope it will work out all right. I believe it will.

With regard to St. Patrick's Home, I confess I do not know anything about it. I should like to know something about the conditions in it. I am not one of those who believe, as some comments I heard would lead one to believe, that conditions in jails should be all comfort. I do not agree with that. On the other hand, I do not agree that they should be unduly harsh but one thing which I think should be part of the routine in St. Patrick's is some type of work for the young offenders during the day, something to occupy their minds and something to try to inculcate in them the value of work, the use of work, and give them the idea of work. Unfortunately, some of them appear to think that everybody else should keep them. I put that to the Minister. I do not know what the rules and regulations may be. I think that work for some hours a day should form part of the routine for the people in St. Patrick's.

As regards St. Mary Magdalen's Home, I find myself agreeing with Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien. I think it is an unfortunate choice. I know it may not be easy to find alternatives to which to send young delinquents. In fact, they are not proved delinquents—they are only on remand. I think it would be very unfortunate, as Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien said, that some young girls who may be ignorant of what the Home meant, should choose to go there to keep out of jail, as they thought, and later on, perhaps, after being acquitted, find they had been in such a place.

I think the choice of the place is unfortunate. Personally, I would rather see the position as it is than just have that. Surely, it should be possible, at least in the framing of this measure, not to state specifically that Home but to leave it in some general way as some home or convent approved by the Minister. Within a short time, I am sure if the Minister sets himself out to do so, we shall be able to find some alternative convent or home.

I think it is a mistake to have that there for all classes who may come up and be remanded and who may possibly be innocent. Even if it were only a case of one or two girls, I think we should not pass it without some further effort to find alternative accommodation to that Home for these girls.

I said in my opening remarks that this was a simple Bill. That does not mean that it is a Bill that cannot be criticised. I certainly welcome the criticism to which I have just listened. I think that it will be helpful and useful in regard to future consideration of matters of this kind. Let me deal first with the criticism which was made by Senator Mrs. Connolly O'Brien in respect of the place of remand for girls.

I should like the House, first of all, to remember that I am in the hands of the ecclesiastical authorities in this matter of remand institutions. I cannot just say that we will remand girls to this convent, that convent or some other convent. When we decided that it would be a desirable thing not to remand young girls who might be innocent of the crime with which they were charged to a prison, we began to discuss what other place or institution, would be suitable. We thought it would be desirable that young girls should be remanded to convents rather than to prison. We had to see whether we would be allowed to remand girls who were charged with crimes to such institutions and his Grace very kindly suggested that we could utilise the services of the sisters in St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum in Seán MacDermott Street.

I want to impress upon the Senator who first raised this matter that I myself was conscious of all she was conscious of. I discussed the matter with my advisers and I made it clear that girls so remanded should be remanded to a portion of the convent where they would not be in contact with the type of person whom the Senator has in mind. Whether or not that would be possible, I do not know. I have not got a reply on that matter.

I should also like to remind the Senator that in the course of my opening remarks, I said:

I have no doubt that other convents will be willing to accept girls on this basis also.

I do not know whether or not we shall get the use of other convents. I hope we shall, but if we can have these girls remanded to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum and if they will not be in association with the type of inmate which the Senator has in mind I do not think we can object very strongly. It is just a question of whether the indignity of being remanded to St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum is a greater indignity than being remanded to Mountjoy prison.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington was the first to raise the question of the criminal lunatic. He said that there was no such person as a criminal lunatic. I think there is and I shall give an example. A person who is sentenced for a serious crime may be in prison for a year or two years when he suddenly loses his mental balance and becomes insane. He has to be removed to a mental hospital, He is sent there as a criminal lunatic.

Then there is the individual who has been charged with, say, the murder of some person and in the course of his trial, he either becomes insane or feigns insanity and the jury decides he is insane. He is not sentenced to death; he is sent to the Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum, as it was called, during the pleasure of the Government. That is another example of the type of person who is included in the term "criminal lunatic".

But he is not responsible; he is recognised as not being responsible.

He may not be responsible in the second instance, but he would surely be responsible in the first instance which I have given the Senator.

However, the question will be settled in the near future as we shall be bringing in a Bill dealing with that particular question and it is quite possible that we may be able to get rid of the term. It is not a nice term, I admit, and it is not one that we want to inflict on somebody who in the course of time may leave the mental hospital and resume a normal life.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington asked whether the prisons paid. I do not think any prison pays. I do not think they are meant to. They are millstones around the necks of the unfortunate taxpayers.

My question was not whether prisons paid but whether we get adequate value from our expenditure.

That would depend on what would be regarded as adequate value. If, for example, the prisoners were being sent out completely reformed, then I would say we were getting full value, but do we succeed in doing that? I do not think we do. However, if it is a question of whether the prisons pay for themselves they do not. Of course, there is valuable work being done in them. For instance, they manufacture all the mail bags for the Post Office and they make quite a lot of clothing which is used for the manufacture of uniforms. They also produce quite a large amount of firewood blocks and kindling. The same applies to St. Patrick's Institution. The boys there are kept fully occupied. I can assure Senator Colley who seemed to be worried on that aspect of it that as far as work is concerned the boys may regard themselves as overworked. They are kept fully employed for several hours of the day and their recreation is not forgotten either. They have a magnificent recreation field where they play football. They have a recreation hall and they participate in boxing tournaments with outside clubs so that they are not entirely out of contact with normal life outside.

Somebody asked if I was satisfied with the conditions in St. Patricks. Personally I was satisfied from my inspection of the institution. I am sure that there are Senators who if they went there would be so critical that they might see where improvements could be made and so on but from my examination of the institution I was wondering like Senator Carter, whether we were going too far in fact with this business of making prisons a home from home. Mind you, when you see some of the crimes which have been committed recently in this city, in the main, by young fellows under 21 years of age, you begin to ask are we lacking in the disciplining of that type of individual or are we too soft with them or is juvenile delinquency brought about by the public generally—parents, the Government and everybody concerned —being too sentimental, as we appear to have been in dealing with this matter here.

There has been a certain amount of sentiment shown in the discussion which has taken place and we ought to ask ourselves whether we are in some degree responsible for the lack of civic spirit which appears to be abroad at present. I should say of course—and I think it was Senator Carton who referred to this—that most of the crimes in this State take place in the cities and other large centres of population. Rural Ireland is practically clear of that type of crime, and that is to the credit of the residents of rural Ireland, but we have to deal with great masses of population such as we have in the city of Dublin—something like 600,000 people—and we are beginning to reach the stage that they appear to have reached in some of the great capitals of Europe. That is something that will have to be very seriously considered by all who are responsible for the handling of these matters.

I do not think there is any more that I can say except on the question of parole. As I mentioned at the beginning, when I decided to deal with a case in which a prisoner's mother was dying I can assure the House I had certain misgivings, with regard to the parole which I granted to a man who was not legally entitled to it, as to whether or not he would honour it. It is to his credit that he did. On a second occasion, in similar circumstances, the parole was honoured too. Parole involves putting trust in an individual and, like Senator Sheehy Skeffington, I believe that giving a man that sort of personal trust gives him an uplift. In one case—I think it was the first case—the man was to report back at 7 o'clock and he actually reported back at 6.30 p.m. in order to ensure that he would honour his bond and be there in ample time.

It was arising out of these little matters that this Bill has been brought in. As I said a moment ago, I do not think there is anything more I can say and I think I have answered most of the questions I have been asked.

Question put and agreed to.
Business suspended at 6.15 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.
Top
Share