Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Jul 1962

Vol. 55 No. 11

Appropriation Bill, 1962—Second and Subsequent Stages (Resumed).

Mr. L'Estrange

When we adjourned I was speaking about the increase in the cost of living and the fact that it stands at an all time record of 154 points and that despite previous promises the Government had abolished food subsidies. The people can have very little confidence in any Government which makes specific promises and immediately after returning to power breaks those promises. Any Party should live up to promises which they make. In the Irish Press of 14th March, 1956, the Taoiseach, then Deputy Lemass, said, and I quote:—

Food subsidies must be accepted as likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimates unless a very steep fall in the cost of living should take place, and that is not very likely, to put it mildly.

He made a specific promise that food subsidies would be maintained unless there was a steep fall in the cost of living. Instead of a steep fall we have an all-time high increase yet subsidies to the tune of £9,000,000 were taken away since that time. Deputy Lemass, as he then was, did not finish his reference to food subsidies there. He went on to say:

I would like to express a personal view which I hold strongly that the maximum advantage can be obtained by concentrating all the money which can be voted for food subsidies on flour and bread prices alone.

That was a personal view of the man who is now Taoiseach and he has full power to put his views into practice. This year he could see his way to abolishing taxes on dances and cinemas but despite what he then said he could not see his way to concentrate all the money which can be voted for food subsidies on flour and bread prices alone. We have people making promises to the Irish people, getting into power and breaking the promises. It is plain now that they were but stepping stones to get power and when they got it they quickly forgot about those promises.

We have had numerous arguments here about the increase in the cost of living under the two Governments. Even inside the last month the Minister for Finance stated that the increase in the cost of living under both Governments had been roughly the same. When I quote figures here the Minister gets up afterwards and states that I quoted figures and that, as usual, they were all wrong. My figures are taken from the statistical bulletin published by the Central Statistics office and they can be seen on page 22. In 1948 when the inter-Party Government came into office the cost of living index figure stood at 99 points. They were three years in office and went out on the 30th May, 1951, when the cost of living was 109 points, an increase of 10 points under that Government. The Fianna Fáil Party came into office and despite the fact that they promised they would retain the subsidies and reduce the cost of living, when they were leaving office in May, 1954, the figure was 124 points, an increase of 15 points. The inter-Party Government came back in May of 1954 when the cost of living index figure stood at 124 points and they went out of office in March, 1957, when the cost of living figure stood at 135 points. There was an increase of 11 points during their term of office. Fianna Fáil took office again in March, 1957 and today the cost of living figure stands at 154 points.

Dr. Ryan

In the first three years we were there what was it?

Mr. L'Estrange

You came back in March, 1957. It was 135 points.

Dr. Ryan

And in 1960?

Mr. L'Estrange

It was 144.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, that is nine—nine against your eleven.

Mr. L'Estrange

You were in power from March, 1957, to March, 1960.

Dr. Ryan

Yes. Take those three years.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am taking the last five years.

Dr. Ryan

Five years against three.

Mr. L'Estrange

I will give the total number while both Parties were in office.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

You came into power to reduce the cost of living.

Dr. Ryan

We did, too. We made a comparative reduction.

Mr. L'Estrange

Despite promises made, the cost of living has gone up in six years from 135 to 154, an increase of 19 points. If you count the ten and eleven points it increased under the inter-Party Government it is a 21 points increase in six and a half years, and if you add the 15 and nine points increase it is an increase of 34 points in a little over eight years. You have a 21 point increase over six and a half years and a 34 point increase for eight years.

Dr. Ryan

There is not much diffence between them.

An Cathaoirleach

How is this related to the Bill?

Mr. L'Estrange

It has been discussed on this Bill last year and the Minister himself asked me to produce figures when we would meet again as he said that my figures were wrong, and this was the first opportunity I have.

Mr. Yeats

They are still wrong.

Mr. L'Estrange

Here is an exact copy from the official statistics. You know them yourself, and when the different changes of Government took place, and you can check on them.

As regards industry, as far as Fine Gael are concerned we stand where we have always stood since the foundation of this State—in favour of worthwhile projects. I am all in favour of worthwhile projects, especially those based on the raw material we have, that will give employment to our own people at home and help to increase production. Many people are alarmed at the number of foreigners coming in and buying land here. According to Government figures, the problem does not seem to be too bad, but they must be misled by someone, because I know from my own county how land has been bought up. Travelling through different parts of the country we find large estates and farm lands purchased by foreigners throughout the length and breadth of the country. That is wrong, but at the same time I want to say that we welcome anybody coming from abroad to start factories here, whether they be Germans or French or those who have the know how and the technique and are prepared to invest some of their own money in worthwhile projects. We have had many of them over the past few years, and credit is due to this Government and to the last Government which gave many worthwhile concessions and encouraged the setting up of those industries here.

We have spoken before on this Bill about our marketing system. Many of us claim that it is completely antediluvian and out of date. For that reason we were very glad when in 1957 the Minister announced that he had proposals to spend £250,000 towards setting up proper marketing boards. Unfortunately, very little of that money has been spent for that purpose, and we think it would be a good idea if the Minister could see to it that the money was spent on those boards. If we are to hold our own in the Common Market we need a proper marketing system.

Many on this side of the House cannot share the optimism displayed by Senator Ó Ciosáin, for example, today. The country needs a dynamic Government prepared to work hard and to lead the people by example to better times. They should devote more of their time to attending to their Departments and, perhaps, less to big dinners and things like that. Everything might seem rosy at a good dinner and whatever goes along with it, but, after all, for the ordinary people of this country things are not as rosy as they are being seen through the eyes of the different Ministers. Many of the present Government members are too old and too stale. We need more younger men at the helm. Young men won the last war and young men could save this country. The Fianna Fáil Government is like an old man sitting in the chimney corner hoping that with the help of God and the money from Aunt Maggie he will be able to turn the corner somehow. That is not the attitude they should adopt especially at the present time, because the people of Ireland have never been lacking in energy and courage but they need direction and control from the top.

I said earlier that grave matters will require negotiation and attention on behalf of our people in the new economic climate and fresh men of vision, of enterprise, of initiative and of leadership are badly needed in the Government, especially in the Department of Agriculture. Unfortunately, in our day, as somebody said, Ireland has excommunicated some of those who have served her best, and she has canonised some of those who have served her worst. I still think that if we all pull our weight in the future and ask: "What can I do for my country?" instead of asking: "What can I get out of it by doing as little as I possibly can?" we could all make this little country a better one to live in. To succeed in the future and to meet the challenge facing all of us, I feel it is time that we asserted Pearse's definition of a true Irishman and a true Irishwoman as one who specifically recognises this Irish nation as an entity and, being part of it, owes it and gives it service.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I should like to support Senator Brosnahan's appeal for a university background for the training of our national teachers, and I hope that the Minister for Education will lose no time in tackling this problem and doing what he can to solve it. To me at all events the solution seems to lie in the extension of the training college course to three years and the award of a Bachelor of Arts in Education degree to the successful students. I know this would involve a link with the university, a link which is sorely needed if our education is to progress as it should. This has been achieved in Great Britain and I see no insurmountable difficulties about achieving it here. It may be recalled that when the Welfare State was established in Britain in 1945 it was necessary to have a new class of social worker to operate it and the universities came into line in the new departure by creating a degree in social science. This was created largely for reasons of status and our universities here in due course followed suit. If it was possible to do that, how much more important is it that our primary teachers should be equipped with university training and university qualifications so that our system of education from the ground up would be the best we could possibly get?

I think a tribute is due to those dedicated teachers like Senator Seán Brosnahan who in their spare time and at their own expense got themselves university training which, of course, they need not have done but did so the better to qualify themselves for their career as teachers. I often wonder if the younger teachers of today will follow the example of Senator Brosnahan's generation in view of the lack of prospects of securing adequate remuneration under our system for their extra qualifications and in view, too, of what in my opinion anyway are still unsatisfactory salaries in comparison with the rewards that can be earned in other branches of the public service and in industry. Teachers who have become highly qualified and who could take out half a dozen degrees in the university at their own expense and in their own time find that the Department of Education by its failure to recognise adequately the added qualifications they have secured seems to desire that they should not have done so. It is almost incredible that no matter how many degrees a teacher gets his total extra reward in terms of money per annum does not exceed £48. This compares very poorly, indeed, with the standards obtaining in Great Britain and in the Six Counties. There is no doubt that the Minister for Education should look into this and do what he can to remedy the position because until the training colleges are either integrated completely with the universities or, alternatively, linked in such a way as I suggested there is very little inducement to a teacher to spend his own money in his spare time on obtaining these extra qualifications when he does not receive the adequate remuneration he should receive—and would receive in any other profession—from his own Department of Education.

I want to draw attention to two rumours which have been circulating and have gained currency throughout the city. One is that evening classes in University College, Dublin, are to be abolished because of lack of space and lack of personnel to conduct them. I hope this one anyway is only a rumour because if there were any truth in it it would mean that teachers who desired to take a degree would be unable to do so. The second rumour which is pretty widespread is that University College, Dublin, plans to abolish the course for the higher diploma in education. These rumours are widespread and a statement should come from some authoritative source to allay the public disquiet which has been created.

I might say in relation to the university that it was a retrograde step to abolish the department of education in University College, Dublin, as it was organised and operated by that great educational authority, the late Rev. Dr. Timothy Corcoran, S.J. As Senator Brosnahan can testify, he gave teachers a background which no one else in Ireland has tried to give them and he gave them the opportunity of doing research work for a master of arts degree or a doctorate of philosophy. The position now is that an evening student cannot take a master of arts degree or a doctorate in philosophy unless he has an honours B.A., and the evening classes in the National University do not permit him to become an honours B.A. because they do not cater for honours students nor, in fact, do they cater in the same circumstances and for the same reasons for the new degree in psychology.

Some weeks ago on Telefís Éireann I saw and heard Rev. Professor O'Doherty of University College, Dublin, speaking on the need for a far greater amount of research into the mind of the five-year-old child. He said that very little was known, in fact, that it was a minus quantity at the present time and that greater research and much more discovery were required in this particular subject. Yet primary teachers who deal with those children are denied facilities by the university to take that degree in psychology.

In my opinion, we have the finest corps of primary teachers in the world, the finest area of recruitment to the profession and the finest types of recruits to it, but irritants like those I have mentioned are liable to make them sour. We do not want to get into the unfortunate position in which England finds itself at the present moment, that they cannot get teachers and that as a result—as anyone knows who read an article in a recent issue of the Observer—their infant schools are in dire peril of extinction.

We have heard a lot about secondary education. If the scope of secondary education is to be widened, and I hope personally it is to be greatly increased, the only hope I can see lies in the primary teachers who will take on the work in the secondary top of national schools but the facilities for university degrees available to them offer very little encouragement for them to seek them. That is a point worthy of consideration and examination by the Minister for Education and I am certain, because of his great interest in the development of a proper system of education here, he has not overlooked and will not overlook it.

Personally, I do not see why primary teachers should not have the same status as secondary teachers seeing that they go into the training colleges with six or seven honours and an interview, mind you, while students doing a degree are not required by the university to have the same standards for entrance. Naturally I, like Senator Brosnahan, am all for raising the school leaving age. I am confident that the Government will do everything in their power to expedite that desirable situation and bring about the raising of the school leaving age as quickly as possible.

Senator Miss Davidson, in the course of this debate, said that the money allocated to the development of tourist traffic could be better spent, and she advocated the curtailment of that expenditure. Like Senator Ó Ciosáin who spoke earlier today, I was greatly surprised at that attitude from a representative of Labour, when we think of all the benefits reaped by the workers in this great industry. Senator Miss Davidson will, I am sure, gain a better appreciation of the industry from a study of the annual report of Bord Fáilte which reached us all this morning. It is noteworthy that this report reveals that our income from tourism last year was almost £47,000,000, an increase of £4,500,000 over the previous year. It shows that tourist traffic followed the export of merchandise as the biggest factor in closing the gap in our balance of payments.

Our visitors numbered 1,460,000 which was an increase of six per cent. over the 1960 figure. Of those, 843,000 came from Britain, and 85,000 from the United States of America. Those figures are not to be despised. Altogether the report shows that 1960 was a record year for tourism. The Director General, the board and all concerned in developing this industry deserve our thanks, and merit congratulations on the excellent results of their work.

However, the report strikes a note of warning in the following paragraph which I think should be heeded. It says:

Even in Britain, where our major effort is concentrated, the rise in incomes, the offer of cheaper and faster travel, and the growing popularity of "all-inclusive" continental holidays, tend to nullify Ireland's natural advantages.

There is no doubt whatever that we are facing a serious challenge from the highly organised countries, and the reasonably priced holidays offered on the Continent by the big travel agencies in Britain. Anyone who reads the newspapers can see for himself that judging by the Press advertisements for summer holidays, our prices seem to be higher than those on the Continent for holidays of a similar type. All concerned, therefore, in this great industry should put on their thinking caps before we price ourselves completely out of the tourist market.

That is not a remote possibility because every country in Europe is going after this tourist trade, hook, line and sinker, and offering inducements which to the people who come to us from Britain are, on the surface anyhow, and in the newspaper advertisements, much more attractive than the prices and inducements which we are able to offer. We should, therefore, take heed of the danger that exists and I hope the people in the trade unions and in the hotel industry will take obvious note of it, too.

I have one criticism of Bord Fáilte. It is late when they start their advertising campaign in the British Press. Britain is our greatest potential market for tourist visitors. There is no doubt in the world that that market is very big and that it could be greatly expanded. However, there is an old tradition in Britain that the Englishman makes up his mind where he will spend his summer holiday when he is eating his Christmas turkey on Christmas Day.

Unfortunately, so far as I can judge, during recent years, the advertising campaign organised by Bord Fáilte in the British Press does not begin in time. It would be well worth consideration on the part of their publicity department to see whether it is not possible to start their series of advertisements in the popular papers in Great Britain well before Christmas, so that we will be in line with the continental resorts which advertise in the British Press and with the great travel agencies which begin their campaign of advertisements for the summer holiday of the following year around 1st December.

The present season unfortunately has not been as good as the report we received today indicates last year was. That was due I think in the main to external factors which probably will not recur next year. I am glad to see that it has not damped the enthusiasm of Bord Fáilte with regard to the continuation of their hotel development programme. I hope it will meet with every success.

Senator Ó Conalláin referred to Telefís Éireann and their attitude to the Irish language. I must confess at the start that I am an avid fan of Telefís Éireann, and I am prepared to do battle in their defence at any time, in any place and with any person. I think Telefís Éireann have done a wonderful job since 1st January, when they came on the air. They cannot of course accomplish miracles any more than any other human agency. They have been up against tremendous competition and they have had to overcome tremendous handicaps.

We were fortunate in that creative period in having such an outstanding Director General as Mr. Roth. I hope when his term of office expires, the Broadcasting Authority will be able to persuade him to remain, and to give his services to our Television and Broadcasting Authority for another period. His achievement in putting this service on the air in the way in which it has come on the air for the past eight months to me anyhow looks almost miraculous.

I agree thoroughly that not enough time is given to the Irish language on Telefís Éireann but the time that is given is well used. We must have patience. We cannot expect miracles, as I said, but we do expect progress in the near future. I am one of those who believe that putting on programmes in Irish for the sake of being able to say we are putting on something in Irish no matter of how poor a standard or low quality does more harm to the language than anything else we could do.

I believe that if a programme in Irish is put on Telefís Éireann or Radio Éireann, it should be of a standard comparable with any programme which is put on in English. Unless the standard is equal to the standard of the programme in English, it should not be put on the air merely for the sake of filling in a spot in a programme and saying that we are using the Irish language.

I have no doubt that those who are responsible for the programmes on Telefís Éireann are aware of Article 17 of the Broadcasting Authority Act. I have no doubt that as they overcome the obstacles with which they have been faced the position will improve. As I said at the start, as a stout defender of Telefís Éireann and the tremendous entertainment it is giving, I should like to say that I am with Senator Ó Conalláin in hoping that within a reasonable period we shall see a big improvement in the position in regard to the use of Irish and the use of documentaries.

I noticed in the Press in the past few days that Telefís Éireann camera men and script writers are engaged on a series of documentary films. I hope they will try to put on Telefís Éireann something similar to one of the finest programmes we have—the American programme "You are There." We have here in this country subjects of historical background eminently suitable for a programme of that nature. The critics who say there is not enough Irish language or Irish background in the Telefís Éireann programmes will undoubtedly be fully satisfied if these documentary films of an historical nature are put on Telefís Éireann during the coming winter on the same lines or style as the American programme "You are There".

I think that the Irish which is being used by Telefís Éireann is being used in a way which I have advocated for many years but I could find nobody to take any heed of my advocacy. One of the things which I am convinced will do good for the Irish language is what Telefís Éireann is doing at odd moments throughout the afternoon and evening, namely, the production of pop songs in Irish. For too long we have left the rising generation to the foreign jazz maniacs. For too long we have ignored the fact that the young people want to dance and want to sing and that the songs they sing come from Hollywood and that the dances they dance also come from that part of the world. For too long we have ignored the fact that gramophone store after gramophone store in this city and in every town in Ireland carries the songs which have been popularised by foreign radio stations and by films. Now, Telefís Éireann is doing something which should have been done years ago. It is taking the popular songs sung by the young people and translating them into the Irish language. It is giving the young people no excuse now because if they want to sing these songs they might as well sing them in Irish. There is no reason why they cannot sing them in our own language.

I do not like to take up too much of the time of the Seanad in making reference to Senator Quinlan's one-and-a-half hours' speech. However, there are two points which I should like to mention. He found fault with the Minister for Industry and Commerce because he said yesterday on the debate on the Import Restrictions Bill that he had adequate and expert guidance on the menace of Communism in his own Department. Senator Quinlan could not see any sense in that.

Senator Quinlan, of course, thinks that he himself and the other professors whom he mentioned are the only people in the whole world, apparently, or in this country, in particular, who have any knowledge of that menace. I think he is very full of himself in thinking any such thing. There were others, long before Professor Quinlan began to think of it.

Also, I was glad to see that the witch hunt which he has organised against the Minister for External Affairs seems to have come to an end.

Mr. L'Estrange

He is converted.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Senator Quinlan welcomed the great improvement in the Department of External Affairs apparently in the past six months. He said that now, apparently, its record is more in keeping with our traditions.

Mr. Carton

He has been to America since that.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

There has been no change in the attitude in the Department of External Affairs, of the Minister for External Affairs or of the Government.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

Some people think the Minister has stopped expressing any views.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

There has been no departure from the policy steadfastly followed by our representatives in the United Nations since 1957. In other words, there has been no change in our foreign policy. If anyone has changed, it is Senator Quinlan.

Mr. Ross

This is the Appropriation Bill. Yet we have listened for, I suppose, one-third, possibly nearer half, of the debate to a debate on education and the Estimate for the Department of Education. I support Senator Quinlan's suggestion that it might be possible in a debate of this kind for the Minister for Education to be present. I do not know how far that is practicable. I should like the Minister for Finance to tell us in his reply if it is practicable. If it is not practicable, I think the only way of dealing satisfactorily with our educational policy is for a motion to be put down on the Department of Education in relation to the manner in which the money voted is spent.

I think possibly quite a number of Senators would be prepared to support such a motion if the Minister for Education would come to the House and hear it debated. It may be, as Senator Quinlan has said, that we shall have to wait quite a long time before we are able to debate that motion, because there are a number of motions well ahead of it, but, at the same time, if we cannot have the appropriate Minister present when we want to refer to his Department I think the only way in which the subject can be properly discussed is by a motion.

Like a great number of other Senators, I must add my word of praise to the Investment in Education statistics and to the report produced by the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools. I think it is a magnificent thing that these men have been able to find the time and the energy to put this report together and to produce these statistics. Whatever the Minister for Education may consider the true interpretation of these statistics, in detail at any rate, I think the overall picture must be admitted by every Senator as a particularly gloomy one.

I must strongly support Senator Stanford in his plea that the Government should, as soon as possible, take every step to subsidise and to assist secondary education. The picture of our standard of secondary education, as compared with the standard in Northern Ireland and the standard in Great Britain, is very grim. We are trying in this country to arrive at a new concept of a European country taking our part in the EEC. We are trying to do that, I think, in two ways— (1) by looking outward instead of inward in all our thought and being and (2) by our development of exports to other European countries and by spreading our trading relationship. If we do that on a false educational basis, it seems to me we are building the whole foundation of our new concept of Ireland on sand.

To look at the results produced in the tables in the Investment in Education is extremely depressing. If we are to take our place in the new Europe it seems to me that our educational system must pay the very greatest possible attention to two particular subjects in which we are, apparently, from these figures, singularly lacking. One is European languages and the other is Science.

Take Table 13 in this report. It gives a comparison of the academic achievements at the higher level in secondary education compared with England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If you take the ratio of total honours in the Republic in certain groups and subjects you will find that, with one exception, they are quite extraordinarily low compared with other countries in the same age group.

Latin, Senator Stanford will be pleased to see, shows the greatest ratio in the Republic of Ireland as compared with England, Wales and Northern Ireland. But against that— and I must admit that I do not regard the classics as having the same importance in modern education as Senator Stanford—we have the lowest ratio in French, German, Italian and Spanish. I am not so concerned with the last two but in French and German we have by far the lowest, compared with the equivalent ratio in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Again, in the scientific subjects we have the lowest ratio in physics, chemistry and botany. In zoology and biology we do not appear to have any satisfactory ratio at all. As a basis for the education of technicians and of technical managers and of production managers in management personnel in a country which is going to take its place, we hope in a very short time, in the European Economic Community, it seems to me we are taking singularly few and ineffective steps. The amount of money spent on secondary education is abyssmally small and it is directed to my mind to the wrong teaching. We will have to adjust ourselves to education which will have to be geared to the European Common Market and our future as an industrialist and management country.

I want to go on now to two other Estimates. My first point arises on the Estimates for the Stationery Office. I expect the Minister is aware that the bound copies of the Acts of the Oireachtas for 1959 only became available a few weeks ago. To a practicising lawyer, or anyone who has to refer to the Acts, that is a matter which to say the least is extremely inconvenient. I believe the reason for this is in part due to delays in printing but very largely due to the delays in translating the Acts into Irish.

The Acts appear in their bound state with the Irish on one side and the English on the other. If that is the reason for the delay in printing, or certainly of binding the copies, I would ask the Minister to consider the printing of separate editions of the Acts, so that bound copies of the Acts in English and bound copies of the Acts in Irish might be available separately particularly to practitioners in the law. It would facilitate ordinary legal practice very greatly if those were available to us considerably less than two and half years after they have been passed by the Oireachtas.

My last point arises on the Estimate for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, under which a sum of £95,500 is allocated to the collectors and assessors of taxes. The Sixth Report on the Commission on Income Tax at page 20 dealt with the collection of taxes and pointed out a great many difficulties in the way of ordinary collection. They particularly emphasised that it was a laborious and time consuming system. I expect the Minister has in mind a number of reforms in connection with the collection of taxes. That report suggested that the office of collector, as distinct from the office of inspector, should be abolished and that the collector should become part of the ordinary office of inspector. That would seem a considerable improvement because at the moment, it seems to me, there is very little liaison between the inspector's office and the collector's office.

I know of numerous cases in which unearned income may have come to a person who has had to reclaim tax from the United Kingdom. He has arranged with his inspector that as soon as the tax is received from the United Kingdom he will pay the Irish tax and the inspector in normal practice agrees with that procedure. But what happens? The collector who may have written to the individual, and probably has, appears to take no notice at all of any arrangement between the individual and the inspector. The collector sends out a normal black notice for a demand. When the time comes, he sends out a blue notice and after that a red notice. The red notice, as Senators are probably aware, is a notice which threatens distraint with costs if the tax is not paid within seven days. For those who have made arrangements with the inspector this red notice does not really have much effect—in which case I suggest it should never have been sent—but to some it is an extremely frightening notice. It seems to me that the sending out of such a notice, when it is not intended that it should be acted upon, is a waste of time and money. As well as that, it creates the wrong public image of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department generally.

I want to give the House one further example of the action of a collector only a few weeks ago because it is typical, it seems to me, of the attitude of collectors of taxes. A person, well known to me, was concerned because he had received no demand for Schedule A tax for some two years. He rang up the inspector of taxes and said that he was concerned about this and wanted to know the reason for it. The Schedule A people were extremely polite; they looked up the reference and said there had been a slight mistake because a small portion of this person's land had been acquired by the county council and there had been some delay in assessing the proportion as between the county council of the particular county and this person. They arranged to send out a demand. This was amicably arranged between this person and the inspector. But what happened? In about a fortnight's time the person concerned, who had been at pains to point out that he had not paid his tax, received a demand from the collector saying that immediate payment of this tax, which was very considerably in arrears, must be made. With that was a letter on the usual red form threatening distraint with costs.

This man was naturally extremely annoyed at the attitude of the collector. He at once wrote a letter to the inspector's office complaining about the way he had been treated, and he also sent a copy to the collector. He stated that he was perfectly prepared to pay his tax but would pay it on a proper and civil demand being made. That was six weeks ago. As a result of that two things happened. One was that the man concerned was rung up immediately on receipt of the letter by the inspector's office with a profuse apology, and the other was that the collector of taxes did absolutely nothing about it and no demand has ever been sent to that man for his tax.

I mentioned that because it is to my mind quite typical of the attitude of collectors of taxes in this country. They are doing no useful service whatsoever either to the country or to the Department in carrying on in this manner. I would ask the Minister to let us know if he proposes to take any steps to amend this state of affairs even before he may reform the office of collector of taxes so that ordinary citizens of this country are not faced with completely unfair and very often what almost amount to abusive demands from collectors when their tax is not, in fact, due, or if it is due, is due to be paid under an arrangement between the inspector and the person concerned.

Mr. Mooney

The debate has been on a rather educational plane, and while I agree with the sentiment expressed about the higher spheres in education I have often wondered why in an agricultural country agriculture was not part of the curriculum of the national schools, particularly in rural areas. I am glad to see from a recent report that a recommendation has been made in that regard and if I might be permitted under this Bill, not pre-judging legislation, I would express the hope that the Government may consider favourably the recommendation contained in the report that agriculture will get its place in the primary schools.

While dealing with the Department of Education, I should like to congratulate the Minister on the introduction last year of facilities to vocational education committees for the provision of teaching traditional music in those schools. It was as a result of representations made by the national organisation, Comhaltas Ceolteorí na hÉireann, that the Minister acceded to the request. I might mention in passing that there was no difficulty and that the Minister accepted the recommendation straight away.

Tourism has been mentioned by a number of Senators. I myself have some personal experience in the development of tourism and I would like to take the opportunity of congratulating Bord Fáilte on the report issued to-day. At the same time, I feel that Bord Fáilte is not above criticism. While I may have things to say against them, I should like to congratulate them on the work they have done. I agree with An Seanadóir Ó Maoláin with regard to the advertisement campaign. I had an experience last year of going across to England and going into an office of the Board. I went as a representative of a local development association and was accompanied by another member of the development association. We inquired for the person in charge and were told that he was out. We inquired for some fishing brochures, because we came from a coarse fishing area. One was eventually dug out from under the counter. I remarked to the lady behind the counter that I thought a more appropriate place for it was on the counter or in the window, since that was late October, when English visitors would have been contemplating holidays here in Ireland.

Referring to promotion, I am very glad that Bord Fáilte in their report mentioned Aer Lingus, because we went across the street to the Aer Lingus office and as soon as we entered we saw a fish, which was certainly one that did not get away, showing one of the holiday attractions of Ireland. I would like to take the opportunity of congratulating Aer Lingus on the promotional efforts they are making for tourism in this country. I had a tribute recently from two German visitors who inquired at the Aer Lingus office in Frankfurt with regard to holidays in the South of Ireland. They were high in their praise of the way they were received and the facilities offered to them. They had gone to another office, not of this country, and on inquiry about coming to Ireland they were told there that they would not like it and that they would have difficulty in travelling to Ireland with their car.

The report today is a fine report, but, unfortunately, it has been issued in a season which has not lived up to expectations, and, as has been stated by other Senators, we have apparently come to the cross-roads in regard to tourism. While it has been suggested by An Seanadóir Ó Ciosáin that overcharging is one cause I do not agree that overcharging is entirely responsible, though I do agree that it is high prices which will price us out of the tourist business. The unfortunate thing about tourism is that the people who make the most gain are the people who make the least effort. I suggest that the people who are sabotaging the tourist effort are the people who got the most out of it. That is what is happening.

We started in our area at a rate of four guineas per week for coarse anglers. It has gone up to seven guineas. We are dealing with the ordinary working man from Britain, our nearest neighbour, and we were hoping that he would come across and would discover Ireland with its fishing paradise, but he discovered that it was not a place for a cheap holiday and that he could get his car across to the Continent at a very cheap rate and probably with a guarantee of weather.

Talking about the weather, I have always avoided mentioning that subject to tourists. When I do mention it, I have always told them that we never have extremes of heat or cold, that they will not die from the heat, neither will they die from the cold, and that if we do get a little bit of softness, as we describe it, it helps to make the grass as green as it is and the complexions of our colleens as fine as they are. I think the stage has been reached when we cannot count any longer on the weather and we will have to offer something more. The only thing we can offer is a cheap holiday.

We must show people our way of life. While I go a bit of the way with An Seanadóir Ó Maoláin about modern "pops" I hold that we should retain our own identity and our own native songs and dances. People are coming to this country and leaving it and telling their friends that during their visit here they have not seen an Irish dance or heard an Irish song. That is very unfortunate. We have heard a lot of talk about the Common Market. It is most essential, if we go into the Common Market, that we should retain our own way of life and bring it into the Common Market. Let us influence the countries we will come in contact with in it, and not be influenced by them. We have advocates of French and German, but I say that we should stand by our own language and bring it into the Common Market and get those people to realise that we have a language of our own as they have.

I do not wish to delay the House on this Bill, but these were points I wished to mention. I do not entirely agree with the policy of Bord Fáilte of bringing over travel agents to this country who are wined and dined and toured through the country at the expense of Bord Fáilte but then go back and forget all about us. I could give an instance of one party which was entertained in a certain town and when they were leaving the town they asked where they had been. Some literature which had been given to them was discovered left behind them in the place they had been in. It pays them to encourage people to go to other countries. They are not going to send them over to Ireland.

This question of tourism will have to be seriously considered. Looking over the report, I see that the number of complaints about hotels last year was considerable. There were 548 involving 301 registered premises and there were 498 involving 216 premises in 1960. Those are premises subsidised by all of us here and by the people in general.

I should like to make a plea to the Minister, if he has any influence to use it in connection with accommodation. It is time Bord Fáilte came down to the level of the lower income group and tried to provide grants for the people who keep the ordinary coarse angler, the ordinary visitor and, indeed, the ordinary native who comes back on a holiday and has no place to stay. He is not looking for a top-grade hotel but for a holiday at a moderate price. This has been suggested time and time again to the Board but without result. They say they must look after the palatial hotels. I am not against palatial hotels because even the most modern hotels that we may build will not be able to compete with some of the hotels they have on the Continent and in America.

The Board should come to the aid of a county like mine which is inland and has not the same resources as seaside resorts. They should help people who go into the catering business in places like that. In addition to what the State is doing, these people should get grants under a Local Government Act.

I was amazed at the fact that there was very little criticism of Government policy during this debate. There was criticism of the standard of living, the cost of living, etc., and, of course, the figures quoted were over a period of five years. I think anybody examining the Estimates must agree that there is matter for congratulation in the amounts of money provided by the Government for three things. Two were discussed at great length during the debate, agriculture and education, but I do not think there was any reference to the third, social welfare. Senator L'Estrange referred to the cost of living but he knows as well as I do that the cost of living is beyond the control of the Government.

Mr. L'Estrange

No. What about the removal of the subsidies?

Mr. Mooney

Wages have increased over the years and recently we have had the eighth round. If people are to enjoy a standard of living, they must make some contribution towards it. He mentioned that in his own county, Meath, they had difficulty recently about a delay in the provision of houses but that does not tally with his remarks to the effect that there is nobody left in it because of the high rate of emigration.

Mr. L'Estrange

I said that was true of your county, of the West.

Mr. Mooney

Our county is not so bad in the matter of housing.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

According to the local paper, you wanted 1,000.

Mr. Mooney

We did not do so badly. We provided in Leitrim 600 new houses and 1,000 reconstructed houses and that is not bad.

Mr. Carton

Over how many years?

Mr. Mooney

In the last few years.

Mr. Carton

Since the foundation of the State, you mean.

Mr. Mooney

No, under supplementary grants.

Mr. L'Estrange

They are there since 1949.

Mr. Mooney

Under Senator L'Estrange's Government our county council was placed in a very embarrassing position. I was a member at that time. People were coming to us wanting to know when they would be paid grants. We made application to 29 or 30 places, including building societies and insurance companies, asking them for help to tide us over our difficulties regarding houses. That was in the 1957 period under the last Coalition Government. We got a reply from one company which I will not name.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The affairs of Leitrim County Council have little to do with the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Mooney

I refer to Government policy and that has to do with the Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am ruling that it has not.

Mr. Mooney

Senator L'Estrange referred to the flight from the land.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would ask the Senator to come to the Bill.

Mr. Carton

I am afraid he has been misconstruing Senator L'Estrange.

Mr. L'Estrange

Take your tongue out of your cheek.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Will the Senator come to the Bill?

Mr. Mooney

There was no reference to social welfare and the amount voted in the Bill for that is a matter for congratulation. The standard of living of our people has improved and our way of life has improved and even Senator L'Estrange, I am sure, will admit that the question of emigration has been dealt with as well.

Mr. L'Estrange

They are gone.

Mr. Mooney

In the last few days the Irish Counties' Association in London referred to the fact that fewer people were coming to Britain than heretofore.

Mr. Carton

The fewer the numbers here, the fewer can go.

Dr. Ryan

It is a fact. You have to put up with it. I know you do not like it.

Mr. L'Estrange

We love it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would ask Senators to allow Senator Mooney to continue without interruption.

Mr. Mooney

I should like to take Senator L'Estrange at his word when he suggested giving good example. I feel that as a public representative he should give up his banshee wail and face the future. He should get the people behind him to face the future. He should try to uplift the people and get them to realise that the country has a future.

Mr. L'Estrange

You did not say in 1957 that it had a future.

Mr. Mooney

One of the complaints made by visitors was that when they got into discussion with the native people they found them wailing about the state of the country. I am afraid that most of the tourists met Senator L'Estrange.

Mr. L'Estrange

They met you. More are leaving Leitrim than are leaving Westmeath.

Mr. Mooney

Leitrim is the last bastion of Gaelic culture. I do not want to refer to my own county. I could talk about Meath.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Would Senators please speak about Westmeath? Meath does not come into this at all.

Mr. Mooney

I am talking about the good land, about Meath. We should uplift the people. We should not oppose a thing just because it is introduced by the Government even when there is good in it. There may be bad in it but we should all cooperate in the interests of the country. As public representatives, we should not go around bewailing conditions and convincing people that they ought to get out of it. Senator L'Estrange says and it must be right, though I do not believe all he says——

Mr. L'Estrange

I gave the Minister praise for something today, believe it or not.

Mr. Mooney

Senator L'Estrange seems to feel that the Fianna Fáil Party is responsible for the present Government. It is not the Fianna Fáil Party, it is the people of Ireland.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

It is Deputy Frank Sherwin and Deputy Leneghan.

Mr. Mooney

The people are quite happy and quite satisfied and the fact that they returned them to office indicates that they feel that the country is in safe hands, that it could not be in better hands as far as the Common Market is concerned.

Mr. L'Estrange

They lost seven seats.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

The debate on this Appropriation Bill has really developed into a debate on the Department of Education with an occasional diversion here and there. Primary education has been very adequately dealt with, secondary education and university education, and a strong appeal has even been made for the classics. I suppose it is only natural that our minds should be turned to education at this time in the history of our country when we are about to enter the Common Market or when we hope to enter it and when only the best and most educated will survive either as individuals or as a country.

I rise to develop a point made by Senator Mooney when he mentioned education in the sphere of agriculture. I was rather surprised sitting here for hours during the debate to find that so little time was devoted to technical education in that sphere. I understand that the Taoiseach stated today that it was absolutely essential that the level of productivity should be accelerated, and accelerated immediately, even if drastic or unusual methods had to be employed. I heard that report of the Taoiseach's speech on the midday news. I could not agree more. In my opinion productivity can be increased only through the instrumentality of the principal industry of this country, agriculture.

In my opinion education in the sphere of agriculture is grossly inadequate. It has been neglected over the past 40 years. In practically every county we have one or more, and sometimes several, secondary schools and we have technical schools, but how many agricultural colleges have we? I suggest that we have probably five or six altogether. There is one at Ballyhaise in County Cavan, and there is a diocesan school in County Monaghan. I suppose I could count the rest on the fingers of one hand. I would urge the Minister to make more money available for that type of education. It would show a good return. Unless we do so there is no future for the country, in the Common Market or out of it.

I doubt whether the instruction provided through the committees of agriculture is showing the best return. I think the scheme that is being operated is out of date. I do not wish to be controversial but it is a fact that when the inter-Party Government were in power a system of technical education through parish agents was introduced by the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. It was an excellent system, and the only reason I can think of for its being dropped was that it was introduced by Deputy Dillon.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

He only spoke about it.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

He put it into operation through the parish agent in Monaghan.

Mr. L'Estrange

Cavan and Westmeath.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

There should be resident agricultural schools. The farmers' sons who intend to make their living out of agriculture should be encouraged to go to those schools. Farmers' sons with first class national school education, or perhaps technical school education, should go to those schools for a couple of years and then return to the land.

The schools at present operated are largely institutions to which boys go who intend to become inspectors, or to make their living out of agriculture but not on it, if you know what I mean. I advocate generous scholarships to help the sons of smaller farmers to go to those schools and prepare themselves to help themselves and help the country in the years that lie ahead.

I should like to say a few words about technical education as operated by the vocational education committee. Technical education stands more or less out on its own. It is unique in the sense that it is operated by voluntary committees, the vocational education committees. Those committees are doing good work but I do not think they are getting all the co-operation that they should get from the Department of Education. I suppose great bodies move slowly, but it certainly takes a long time to get a technical school from the Department of Education. It is most frustrating for a person who goes on a vocational education committee with the idea of providing a school in a certain place in his own locality perhaps, to find that it takes many years to get that school although the project is approved in principle. It has taken up to ten years to get a school.

Contrast that with voluntary effort. In County Cavan we have had the unique national experience of providing a technical school by voluntary effort. That technical school which is costing something in the neighbourhood of £20,000 will be open within the next month, and it was first thought of not more than three years ago. I understand that about April, 1960, a voluntary local committee got working on it. The building is now an accomplished fact and it will be open within a month. Pupils will be taught there next September when the new term opens. I venture to suggest that if the people of Virginia had waited to get a school through the ordinary sources, the vocational education committee with the assistance of the Department, they would not have one for the next ten years. I appeal therefore for more co-operation from the Department of Education in the line of technical education through vocational education committees and I ask that the assistance given be speeded up.

I think, Sir, that the provision of housing is relevant on the vote for the Department of Local Government. I just wish to put the record right, and I am sorry that Senator Mooney has left. I gathered from him that there was practically no housing problem in Leitrim whereas I read recently in large letters in the local paper of a survey which had been carried out by Leitrim County Council as a result of which it would appear that 1,000 houses are necessary in Leitrim. I am not able, offhand, to give the population of Leitrim, but if 1,000 houses are necessary in Leitrim, a very big percentage of the population of that county must not be properly housed.

On the question of tourism, I agree with the case made by Senator Miss Davidson. She appeared to make the same case as Senator Mooney and other Senators, that we should spend more money in providing good comfortable hotels for the ordinary and middle income or even the lower income group from England who come here on holiday. That was the case Senator Miss Davidson made, and I could not rightly understand her being chastised for doing so by Senator Ó Maoláin. Senator Mooney made the same case and got away scot free. Too much money is being poured into palatial hotels and I do not think that expenditure is giving the best return. I think that the more modern type of hotel, catering for the average visitor coming over here from England, may give a better return.

Another point—again under the Department of Local Government: it may be theoretical—is that I assume that the Department of Local Government give substantial grants for the improvement of trunk roads and that they have some say in the spending of that money. I cannot understand and have not been able to understand for many years why the road leading from Navan and indeed from Cavan to Dublin has been left in the state in which it is. The last ten miles of that road from Clonee or Mulhuddart is a public disgrace. There is congestion on it. If you get behind a lorry it is impossible to pass it out. It takes as long to do the last ten miles of that road as it takes to do the first forty.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is the same with the road from Maynooth to Dublin.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

I know that money is spent on many roads in and around Dublin but why neglect one of the main connections with the North? It is brought to my mind forcibly every day.

Minister for Finance (Dr. Ryan)

I have taken a lot of notes. I think I have notes on nearly everything that was raised but there is such a volume of stuff here that it may be difficult to cover everything. There was a lot of talk generally on education. We have been increasing our expenditure on education very rapidly, indeed. In the past six years, since I became Minister, it is gone up by £7 million per year. That is a very big increase. Taking the global figure, it looks fairly good, anyway. That, I should say, is current expenditure, but, apart from that, there is fairly big expenditure on the capital side. Here are a few instances where this money has been handed out over the past couple of years.

There is the new Belfield building for UCD costing almost £2 million; Bolton Street, £500,000; Kevin Street, £1 million; the training college at Drumcondra over £1 million. Apart from that, the general Vote for national schools has been doubled in the past six years. About 40 schools were being dealt with at that time: now the number is 80. Therefore apart from the current expenditure on education the capital side has gone up very steeply also.

On this question of trying to enable pupils to go on from the primary to the secondary school and from the secondary school to the university, the Minister brought in a scholarship Bill which was before the Seanad some time ago. That will help very materially. It will be in full operation in about three years' time. It is starting next year. It will, by that time, increase the number of primary scholarships to students by between 5,000 and 6,000 per year. The number of scholarships from secondary school to university will increase by between 500 and 600. The first year—next year—the post-primary scholarships will be treble what they are now and university scholarships will be double.

It will be the first time the State stepped into the scholarship world. They were all done up to this by the local authorities. The State's stepping in to help the local authorities, and to take the greater part from this on, will make all the difference.

I need not mention—this matter was raised here—that teachers' salaries have been increased more than the ordinary cost of living increases. In other words, they got the status increase too. I am not saying they are overpaid but they are at least comparatively better treated now than they were, say, ten or twelve years ago. We are also, as the Seanad is aware, removing an old grievance by paying the lump sum to pre-1952 retired teachers.

There is a certain amount of confusion. The Minister for Education has one way of looking at a certain figure and certain publications have another way of looking at it. I asked the Minister for Education how he got his figure. He said: "I am taking all children between 14 and 16 years of age: I have a census of the whole lot. I can tell you that, of that age group, two-thirds are still at school. Whether it is secondary school, technical school or in some cases perhaps an extra year in the primary school, at least two-thirds of them are at school." The good thing I see about that is that it is voluntary. There is no compulsion.

I must say that some ten years ago when I was before the Dáil and the Seanad with a Health Bill I was lectured very severely indeed about not allowing people to arrange their own way of life and to pay their own health expenses. Now, it should be equally important that they should pay their own educational expenses, if they are able to pay them. The fact that so many children are continuing their schooling at their own expense, to a great extent, is a sign of an improved economy, but that, however, will be helped now by these scholarships. I think we should find that any bright pupil who is not in a position to continue at his own or at his family's expense should have an opportunity of getting a scholarship from the primary to the secondary school and again from the secondary school to the university.

Senator Hayes raised the question of the big number already at the universities who are not adequately provided for in the way of buildings, and so on. I am not able to dispute that matter with Senator Hayes. I certainly think there is a case, in some of the universities or in some of the university colleges, of overcrowding. The Government have agreed, as Senators are aware, to a very big programme of building University College, Dublin. We have also come to an agreement— or are on the point of coming to an agreement—with both University College, Cork, and University College, Galway, in relation to certain building projects which they have in mind.

The secondary schools are mostly in private hands and, as Senator Hayes pointed out, the great majority of them are in religious hands. Up to the moment, the religious bodies have provided their own buildings, and so on. As far as I know, there is no general request from the religious bodies to be relieved of that responsibility. I am quite sure that if they come to the Minister for Education I shall hear all about it.

Senator Hayes mentioned the young civil servants whom we have encouraged to take university courses. We started this a year or two ago. We gave an opportunity to those who are coming in from the secondary schools from the Leaving Certificate or as Junior Executive Officers, and so on, to compete for these particular courses at the university. The best are taken and sent to the university. They are paid their salary as civil servants— the salary appropriate to whatever rank they have come with—and their fees are also paid. Senator Hayes thinks we are a bit hard by insisting that they must get honours at every examination. That is what is laid down but we are prepared to listen to the university authorities. It must be remembered, however, that the aim is to produce men equal to those we had been taking in from outside as junior administratives and they, of course, had Honours Degrees.

Professor Hayes

The Honours Degree is one thing. However, I am not arguing about it. It is only a matter of adjusting the scheme. I quite agree it is a good scheme.

Dr. Ryan

Where the college would make a good report we would naturally have to consider it. We hope in that way to get a number of the administrative officer calibre. The numbers had been dwindling and although recently they have gone up again we would still like to have more of them. In regard to another point raised by Senator Hayes, it will be easier to recruit into the Civil Service at a higher level as soon as our Superannuation Bill comes along. As Senators may be aware, I have introduced a new Superannuation Bill in the Dáil. It is not dealing with this present increase at all. That will be an ad hoc Bill. This is a general Bill on superannuation amending the present Superannuation Acts. When that Bill is printed, Senators will see that it will make it easier for people to come into the Civil Service at different ages. It will also be possible for a man in the Civil Service to go for a few years to the university as a lecturer or demonstrator and then come back again, or go to a State body for a few years and come back again.

As the Civil Service is becoming more a commercial organisation, as it were, we hope to get better people in that way and better training for them. I think it was Senator Hayes who mentioned State bodies. Parliament, of course, has no right to interfere with the affairs of State bodies. Not only this Government but every Government before us have given thought to this question which is a very difficult question. Could Parliament review State companies or even interrogate them about their affairs? The same review went on in England but no satisfactory solution has been found. On the one side you must allow these companies to carry on with at least the same freedom as ordinary public companies would have competing against them. At the same time, I know that the public company has to face its annual meeting of shareholders. If we could get something corresponding to that, it might be a good thing but, so far, we have not found a solution.

I agree with Senator O'Brien that we can make a great defence for every single item in the Book of Estimates. In fact, I think, with the exception of Senator Miss Davidson, the criticism was that they should have been higher. But as Senator O'Brien said the total is too high and I agree with that but what can we do? You cannot reduce the total because the sum of the Estimates is the total and that is the great difficulty. The Senator also said that a good Minister should be an unpopular-person with the public, with his colleagues and with the Houses. I could prove I am living up to that if I showed him some of the letters I am getting from the public, and I think I could also prove it to him as regards my colleagues if I let him look at what the Bill would have been if all my colleagues had got their way. Members of the Dáil and the Seanad, too, are generally critical that one Vote or another was not high enough. Therefore, I have eliminated myself and I am standing alone in keeping these Estimates down.

Mr. Carton

The burning deck.

Dr. Ryan

Senator O'Brien said that the fear of inflation in many European countries, which he named, had tempted them to slow down on their production. Perhaps, that could be justified in these countries which have had rapid growth over a long period but we are in quite a different position. After all, we are very young in our growth. It has been a short period and it would be a great mistake to slow down in any way. Of course, we all realise the dangers of inflation. First of all, it creates injustice as between the various classes of people if prices are put up. Those who can demand more by way of salaries and wages are all right but those living on fixed incomes are not all right. Therefore, you have that injustice. Then we would have trouble in our external relations by prices going up and it becomes difficult to export. We import more and the result may be unemployment and, perhaps, a deficit in the balance of payments. We should try as far as possible to build our economy even more and hope that increased incomes will follow increased productivity. If so, there will be no ill effects.

Senator McGuire said he thought there was a mis-application of some of the grants that are being made. I have no doubt that is true. It would be very difficult, indeed, for any Government, or any committee set up by the Government, to be so far-seeing and to exercise its judgement as never to make a mistake in applying moneys of that kind. He mentioned the case of applying the money to the reconditioning of an old hotel which, perhaps, was a case of money being thrown away. I do not think there is any money given in that way. I might say that there is a general impression that much is being done by way of grants for the luxurious hotels but as far as I know the grant is the same for the big hotels as for the small ones. They give grants for bedrooms and lounges but the grant is the same and it is no higher for the luxurious hotel than for the ordinary hotel which we have heard supported so much. There was, of course, support from another quarter for a few of the big luxurious hotels. In one case Aer Lingus thought it would help them to have a big hotel and they put money into it, equity capital and not a grant.

They thought it would be a good investment to put some money into it but that was by no means a grant. Senator McGuire, talking about State companies, thought that after the first glamour and enthusiasm of the young people who started them, they would, after a while, settle down to be rather moribund organisations. I suppose there is always that danger but we will have to deal with that when it comes. There was also this question of teachers returning from England and not getting recognition here. There are two ways of looking at that. It is not all a one-sided matter.

You can imagine the young man coming out of the university with his degree and his higher diploma, fitted in every way to teach. He knows that if he goes to England he will get no credit for the time he teaches there, but if he starts here and spends three or four years teaching he will get credit for that three or four years so he may stay here. If it was open for him to go to England for a few years and get credit on coming back for the time he had spent there, instead of staying four or five years in England he might stay there permanently. So that this is a very difficult question to decide. In fact, the Minister for Education has not decided. If you like, he is taking a very opportunist view of this whole matter. When it suits him to give credit he does so. If a person is teaching in France for four years and comes back as a French teacher he will be recognised and get credit for his years there because he has obviously made himself a better French teacher. The same would apply to a man who spent some years in Germany and came back to teach German. The Minister takes a pragmatic point of view, an opportunist point of view. He may change his opinions if it suits the other way.

We have had that trouble, for instance, with the doctors. For a long time here we had no great trouble in our hospitals in getting house surgeons and even a tier above that, who were called senior house men. The names have changed, but I think senior housemen is what they were called, and they could be got. Now because if they go to England or America they are recognised when they come back and can get marks for experience in England and America, they are not going for public jobs here. They find that they can get more pay abroad and we are now finding it hard to get those house surgeons for our own hospitals. We will have to think about what we are going to do about that.

Senator Stanford talked about the classics and gave an example of the number of pupils taking Latin. He was seriously perturbed about the teaching of Latin and talked about fifth rate translations being used by pupils. That, I think, was a practice when I was learning Latin.

Professor Hayes

The original Kelly's keys.

Dr. Ryan

I am sure that Professor Stanford will be glad to hear that I had the privilege of learning Greek, but I am no Greek scholar, and we used translations in that, too. Still Professor Stanford is an authority on this, and I am certainly going to have a talk with the Minister for Education on his suggestions. His first suggestion was that if he had his way he would do away with text books and have no marks for translation from a prescribed text book. Of course, the Latin scholar would have to be a good lot better to translate anything put before him, but it could still be done, because we always got some of that, too. His second suggestion was that if the Minister thought that that was going too far he might make the text books a little less important by giving fewer marks for that item. I will talk to the Minister for Education about that.

He went on to talk about the grant for the Abbey Theatre of £18,000. I should say that the grant is a bit higher than it would normally be because the authorities running the Abbey Theatre told me that it was more expensive for them to run a play where they are now in the Queen's than it would be in the old Abbey or the new Abbey, and so they are getting something more than they would get if they were still in the old Abbey, and more I hope. than they will ask for in the new. The Senator put a very big onus on me to do something about the Abbey to get them back to their old glory of the past. I remember the Abbey for a long, long time, over forty years, and I think the acting is as good now as ever it was but they have not probably got the same plays, and I am afraid that is the position the whole world over.

Professor Hayes

That is the position.

Dr. Ryan

We go on to Senator Miss Davidson. She mentioned the point about too much spent on luxury hotels. I mentioned the point about the medium sized hotels which cater for people of ordinary means who would stay in an hotel on their holiday, that they get the same grants as luxury hotels. There is no specific grant for what Senator Miss Davidson has described as spectacular fronts. As I have said, the grants are confined, I think, first, to bedrooms, secondly to bathrooms, and I am not sure about lounges but they may be included.

The next point was the equipment of the Defence Forces. Senator Miss Davidson wants to know is that money well spent. I believe in having a Defence Force. We should keep it as small as possible but at the same time capable of being expanded rather rapidly in case of emergency. That is what we have aimed at for the past seven or eight years.

Mr. Carton

There is no such thing as a grant for a lounge in an hotel.

Dr. Ryan

I am not sure.

Mr. Carton

They gave a loan. The grants are for accommodation.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, I think so. As regards the Defence Forces, I am convinced of this anyway, though other Senators may not agree, that in the last war we had a Defence Force here that would probably require a couple of divisions to deal with. We could have been beaten by Germany or America or England or Russia if they were allowed to get at us with nobody else in the field, but both sides were fairly evenly matched and they could not spare two or three divisions to come and attack us, so we had that sort of nuisance value. We should, therefore, keep a small Defence Force capable of being expanded rather rapidly in case of an emergency in the hope that there would be sufficient to deter any country that might invade us.

Mr. Carton

If they could get them up to the full establishment.

Dr. Ryan

That is what I mean.

Mr. Carton

It is very simply done —by paying them.

Dr. Ryan

Senator Brosnahan mentioned the long list of subjects that were recognised for the secondary schools. I see no objection to that, because some schools will have French recognised as they do not teach German, Spanish, or Italian, and others may go in for modern languages and not take the classics. It is no harm to have them all recognised. There is nobody who would expect any secondary school to supply teachers for all those subjects.

I agree, of course, that no pupil can rise above the level of his teacher, and by a rather clever move Senator Brosnahan got from that to the salaries paid to teachers. I mentioned that already. I do not think that a teacher will be any better if he gets a higher salary, though he may be more contented.

B'fhéidir go bhféadfaí níos mó úsáid a dhéanamh den Ghaeilge sa Státseirbhís.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Sin é an pointe a bhí agam.

Dr. Ryan

Bhí cuid mhaith le rá ag an Seanadóir Ó Conalláin ar mheán-oideachas agus beidh áthas orm an méid adúirt sé a chur ós cóir an Aire Oideachais.

Now we come to Senator Quinlan. He made a rather long speech. I am not going to speak very much about law charges, but being a public man, if I knocked anybody off a bicycle or knocked two men, in Tipperary or anywhere else, I would have a certain anxiety about going before a jury there. I would prefer a jury in Dublin. Anyway he was acquitted and God knows what would have happened to him if he had been put before a jury in Tipperary. So I do not think we are going to regard the Senator as a martyr.

He went on to tell us of his work in the university. I am quite sure he is doing his work quite well there. He told us of the remuneration of university professors and so on.

I am coming to his discussion of the Department of Agriculture. It is not true to say that the committees dealing with agricultural produce are in any way different from those dealing with industrial products and industrial activities. In the Department of Industry and Commerce, industries are grouped and some civil servants from the Department of Industry and Commerce, some from others, would be on a committee, an economist, sometimes supplied from outside, sometimes from my own Department, and representatives of the industry. It is much the same with agricultural committees. There are officials from the Department of Agriculture and people from the industry.

In the case of farm primary products like livestock or cereals, farmers would be on these committees. There would be an economist, sometimes supplied by the Department of Agriculture and sometimes by my own Department. There is very little difference. Indeed the numbers of producers on agricultural committees are greater than the number of producers on industrial committees. When you come to secondary industries like creameries or bacon factories, then of course representatives of creameries or bacon factories would be on these committees, with officials of the Department of Agriculture.

Senator Quinlan made a point about the number of cattle going down. I remember saying very often about the end of 1959 or the beginning of 1960 that we had a very big carry-over of cattle at the end of 1959 and that it was only to be expected, if there was a good sale for cattle—as there was— in 1960, that the surplus would disappear and that particular hump, if I may call it that, on the number would be destroyed. Looking at our statistics, I am quite prepared to admit that I would like to see very many more cattle in the country, but I do not see what we can do about it. There are suggestions, I know, about bounties on heifers and so on, but that would be a very difficult problem. I have not given any thought to it but you could hardly, I think, give a bounty except on a good breeding heifer and a good deal of our cattle are crossbred, half-Aberdeen Angus and half-Hereford maybe, and they would not be allowed into this scheme.

Mr. L'Estrange

Why?

Dr. Ryan

There would be some difficulty in that respect.

Senator Quinlan had some criticism to offer of the amount of money given to the IAOS. I should like to know whether he can say—because I do not know—whether it is a fact that the IAOS have been pressing for money and have not got it.

Professor Quinlan

I expect they did—I do not know.

Dr. Ryan

They got what we agreed on, I am sure, and I do not think we were hard about refusing what they asked. In the same way, I should like to ask Senator Quinlan about private agricultural schools and whether they have been asking for more and were turned down.

He said that the Department of External Affairs had shown a welcome improvement over the past six months, particularly in their attitude on Kashmir. That was in line with the usual policy of the Department of External Affairs. They did what they thought was the just thing and following the line of justice, they did of course inevitably incur the anger and hostility of certain powers. That was only to be expected and I suppose it did not meet with the approval of the people in this country with an opportunist turn of mind.

Mr. L'Estrange

Senator Boland criticised it severely.

Dr. Ryan

But even Senator Boland might be wrong. I put it that way because he could be wrong. They have stood for that and I think they are beginning to earn the respect and the understanding of other countries. I think it was a good thing that they did stick to their guns, in spite of all the criticism.

Mr. L'Estrange

They did not stick to their guns.

Dr. Ryan

Senator Ó Ciosáin raised the question of Bord Fáilte control over hotels, whether they had any control at all over their charges and so on. They do, of course, publish their charges. Bord Fáilte is interested at least to do that and I presume that Bord Fáilte would maybe criticise the charge, if they thought it too high. But I am afraid they have no power to step in and say: "You must not do that." They might step in and say: "We advise you not to do it," but they have no control so far as I know. They could say to an hotel: "You are not giving value for what you are charging and therefore you are not going to be an A hotel; you will be a B hotel." I do not know if they can do that but they have ways of, let us say, expressing their disapproval.

Senator McDonald asked me some questions about the Shannon estuary. He is concerned about damage done there recently. This is not the big job of the Shannon river under the arterial drainage scheme. The Shannon will be one of the last rivers to be reached, as a matter of fact, under that scheme so it will be some years before it is even surveyed. This is to correct temporary damage.

Senator McDonald asked about the Secret Service. About £5,000 a year is spent. It is given out on a request made to me by any Minister. My signature goes on it, but he does not tell me what it is for because he does not know. It comes from his Department and if he is satisfied the money can be given to the Commissioner of the Guards or the Chief of Staff, the money is passed over to him. It remains about the same, £5,000.

The Local Security Compensation Vote is, I think, a hangover since the Emergency. There are small claims which have never been settled and are still awaiting settlement.

He welcomes the fact that privates of the Defence Force have got better terms and asks for an assurance that the question of uniforms will be settled. Apparently this is a very vexed question and I know that the Department have been considering the matter but I do not know how far they have got so I cannot give up-to-date information on the point.

He asked about the telephone provision. There is a very big hold up in connecting telephones. The Minister is dealing with it as fast as he can get staff together, and get the organisation going generally. As a matter of fact, in the past three years, the amount spent has gone up from £1½ million to £3½ million. That covers the equipment necessary, the materials necessary for putting in telephones and the payment of all the wages and salaries. It would be difficult to imagine anyone building up an organisation quicker than they would appear to be building it. I heard the Minister in the Dáil recently saying that he hoped to have reached some sort of orderly position at the end of the year, that they would be able to deal with applications quicker than they are coming in and that afterwards they would cut down the arrears. Senators must realise that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is regarded as a commercial department. They pay their way. Senators will be aware that when they had to pay out more in wages, they had to put up the price of the stamp to pay their way.

Senator Jessop spoke of the problem of getting co-operation and coordination between the universities and the hospital authorities. I was Minister for Health at one time and I realise very well indeed that there is a big problem there, because the voluntary hospitals are, naturally enough, very jealous of their authority being interfered with. At the same time, of course, they take help, if you like, from the Government, the local authorities, and from the universities now, and they are losing their character as voluntary hospitals. They get very little money in from sources other than public sources. Still, they have the right, of course, to maintain their authority and that creates a difficulty in the settlement with the university authorities.

The Veterinary College is in a different position because it is owned by the Department of Agriculture and they pay. Whether the money goes through University College, Dublin, or through Trinity, it comes to the same thing. They pay it in the end, and it is easy to make any adjustment or settlement that may arise in that case.

The Senator also mentioned the federation of hospitals. It is going on at a very slow pace. I was Minister for Health many years ago, and I thought that was going to materialise rather quickly. It is still going on. I can inquire from my colleague whether or not he can push it, but in all probability, it is the hospitals themselves who are finding difficulty in coming to a final arrangement.

Senator Cole asked whether the new national schools might be out of date before long. He said that one teacher was hardly sufficient even for a small number of pupils. I think there is a tendency to look at this problem in the way which, in fact, the Senator is looking at it. It may be that we will have bigger schools in future but fewer, and that transport will have to be looked after somehow or other. If there were bigger schools and more teachers, the teaching might be better and it might be a better system. I am throwing that out only as an opinion of what may occur as time goes on.

Senator McAuliffe does not approve of the primary certificate and said the INTO do not either. I do not know why. He does not approve of compulsory attendance and thinks it was a great mistake. I must say I do not know what we would have done in some cases, if it were not for that Act.

Mr. McAuliffe

The compulsory School Attendance Act.

Dr. Ryan

I do not know what we should have done with certain types of people if there were no School Attendance Act.

Mr. McAuliffe

"Compulsory" gives it the wrong meaning.

Dr. Ryan

I accept that there is better attendance in the technical schools than in the national schools. The pupils are more responsible and more anxious to learn. After all, when a pupil goes to the national school, naturally he has not very much sense and he does not know what it is all about, and escapes if he can.

Senator McAuliffe also referred to the forestry workers and other rural workers. Negotiations have been going on with the forestry workers and I think it is likely that they will get agreement before very long. I do not say that the negotiations have brought them close to a figure but they have closed up and perhaps something will come of it in the near future. It is not true that we took the view that because they had an incentive bonus, their basic pay should remain as it was. I do not think anyone suggested that, but it was recognised at the beginning that in the eighth round, the basic pay would have to be adjusted.

Senator L'Estrange said the figure had gone up by £52 million. The Budget of 1950/51 was the Budget before I took office in 1952/53, and it went up from £109 million to £148, that is, by £39 million.

Mr. L'Estrange

Allow for the £9 million withdrawal of the food subsidies.

Dr. Ryan

The Senator may talk about £9 million but if he would let me sit down, I could do some sums too. For instance, I could say that we put in £5 million more for social welfare, which the Coalition would not have done in a hundred years.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister saved £9 million anyway.

Dr. Ryan

Between agricultural grants, social welfare and health, we gave £29 million, and no Senator would say we gave too much to any of those things. That makes £29 million out of the £52 million and if I went through the figures again, I could find other things almost as praiseworthy.

I did not take down Senator L'Estrange's figures on imports and exports but I think they are right. We met a worst half year than we had last year, but luckily for us, we were warned about it by our economic advisers. They told us it would happen. They told us, at the same time, that although our balance of payments would worsen, so long as external assets remained static or improved, it was not a matter about which we should worry unduly. We worried about it, of course, because if it got worse, we would be in trouble.

Our policy in the Common Market is a big question. I think everyone knows we have applied for membership. Applying for membership means that they will have a look at it roughly, and if it is likely that our economy will succeed in the Common Market, we will be allowed in. We start with negotiations and when they are finished, we come back to the Dáil— and the Seanad perhaps but I am not sure about that—and tell the Dáil exactly what the proposals are. I do not think we could do very much better than that. We may have to argue our case and make the best case we can. Then, maybe, having succeeded in that way, we might have to come back and put it the other way around to the Dáil and say it is very good to go in. You can negotiate. We cannot, therefore, put the whole case until we know the terms. Then we can put it to the Dáil and say: "Here are the terms." When we say to the Dáil that we are recommending or rejecting them it will then be a matter for the Dáil to make up its own mind.

I agree with Senator L'Estrange that the farmers should not be encouraged to have undue optimism. I think the farmers will have a better time and a brighter time if we go into the Common Market—especially a better time than if we did not go in but, even compared to the present, it will be a brighter future. But it will not be an El Dorado, as somebody said. They will have to work as hard as ever. There is no doubt about that. They will probably have to show a little more ingenuity in management and in looking after their crops and stock, and so on, and also in their marketing activities. I am going to agree with Senator L'Estrange on another thing.

Mr. L'Estrange

There is something on the Minister's conscience tonight.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

Senator L'Estrange is getting suspicious.

Dr. Ryan

He asked how much I spent on physical culture. I do not know.

Mr. L'Estrange

I only wanted to get in the question.

Dr. Ryan

I wish more were spent on it. I shall find out about that, too. I shall not agree with Senator L'Estrange on everything. He produced certain figures which refer back to figures he produced last year. I shall not go into them now. All I shall say is that no matter what figures he may produce he will not convince the farmers that they were better off in 1956 than they are now: I do not believe it. The farmers have sworn they will never support another Coalition, and Senator L'Estrange knows that.

Mr. L'Estrange

No.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

They were marching.

Dr. Ryan

I am quite sure the two gentlemen over there said at the last election that there would be a single Party Government. They knew that if they mentioned a Coalition they were out.

Mr. L'Estrange

Fianna Fáil lost seats. We gained eight.

Dr. Ryan

You knew that if you mentioned a Coalition you were out completely so you started off on a single Party Government ticket.

Mr. McGuire

Yes, we shall have it again.

Dr. Ryan

The people said: "Well, it is not going to be a Coalition so we can vote for them"—and they will never have a Coalition again.

Mr. L'Estrange

So what have you today ? Fianna Fáil cannot rule on their own. You have three Independents.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Dr. Ryan

When the Independents were for Fine Gael, they were grand fellows but with us, they are not independent at all.

Mr. L'Estrange

They are twice as nice now. Is it not a Coalition now? What is the difference?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. L'Estrange

No?

Dr. Ryan

It is a Fianna Fáil Government. So long as they support us, we are very glad to have them but we do not go around selling seats to other Ministers. That is the point.

Mr. L'Estrange

But they said they made you give 2/6 to the old age pensioners, and other things, and it was not denied. Deputy Sherwin said that and it has not been denied.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator L'Estrange must refrain from mentioning the names of Members of Dáil Éireann.

Professor Hayes

There is no money for a Coalition Government in this Bill, not one penny.

Dr. Ryan

No: that is right. Senator L'Estrange mentioned emigration. The Senator should take figures which, indeed, prove to be almost right from the census of the "In" and "Out" figures. They are not guaranteed to be correct but at least they would be as correct for our time as for the Coalition time. If he takes those figures, he will find that from 1st March, 1957, up to the latest date —I think May or June : I am not sure —the net emigration was between 150,000 and 160,000. If he goes back and takes the previous figures, 1st March, 1954, to 1st March, 1957, he will find that the net emigration was 150,000. In three years under a Coalition Government 150,000 went out while in over five years of Fianna Fáil Government 155,000 went out. These are the true figures.

Mr. L'Estrange

Take the last census figure.

Dr. Ryan

What was it ?

Mr. L'Estrange

215,000.

Dr. Ryan

And they put all that down to us—to have it added? From 1st April, 1956, to 1st April, 1957— the big emigration was then—67,000, which is one-third——

Mr. L'Estrange

It is still not one-third of 215,000.

Dr. Ryan

That was the time people went out and said: "No more Coalition."

Mr. L'Estrange

"The British market is gone and gone forever and thanks be to God. It would be a good thing for this country if every ship were at the bottom of the sea."

Dr. Ryan

Take the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I think the Senator said they got £62,000. Can he show me anything for it at present?

Mr. L'Estrange

Yes.

Dr. Ryan

If you come down to Wexford, I have been looking for a river to be cleaned but I cannot find it.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister, maybe, is not able to walk through the field to look for it now.

Dr. Ryan

The Senator says Ministers should spend more time in their Departments and not at dinners. He evidently thinks you get a better dinner in an hotel than at home. When he has more experience, he will find that he will not be a bit anxious for an hotel dinner.

Mr. L'Estrange

I was at a dinner in an hotel last Saturday.

Dr. Ryan

I would rather have my dinner at home. I have never sought an invitation to dinner and I have always accepted with reluctance.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I should prefer if the Minister would come to the Appropriation Bill.

Dr. Ryan

Senator Ross asked about the Stationery Office. The bound volumes of the Acts are slow in coming out. To some extent this is due to the translation. However, there was a hold-up, I am afraid. A general difficulty, as everybody knows, has existed in regard to printing for some time back. I think the position will be improved slightly as time goes on. I hope it will. The same question was raised in the Dáil and inquiries were made at the time.

As regards the question by Senator Ross about income tax, the idea is that each taxpayer should normally be sent a single composite notice of assessment for income tax each year and then a single demand to cover the full income tax of the income tax payer. All his income tax and surtax will be included. This proposal will be implemented as soon as the delivery of the electronic computer, which I mentioned before, takes place and that will be, I think, in September, 1963. From that time on, I think we shall make a considerable advance in our collection of income tax. The arrangements are being made now. I know that many people are paying their surtax now on the PAYE system so the income tax and surtax have actually been merged. We have reached that stage and we shall reach the other stage, I think, of a single demand, next year.

Mr. Ross

My point was in connection with Schedule A tax.

Dr. Ryan

Schedule A will be included, too.

Mr. Ross

What steps will the Minister take between now and 1963, when the computer comes along, to arrange for the collectors to make demands in a proper form on people from whom they are collecting taxes ?

Dr. Ryan

We feel we are making headway in this. There will always, I suppose for a long time, be outstanding cases which it will be a bit of a problem to get over, and so on.

Mr. Ross

It is a question of liaison between the inspector and the collector. My point was in relation to the collector's sending out demands where the inspector has, in fact, made other arrangements.

Dr. Ryan

I shall certainly bring these remarks to the attention of the Revenue Commissioners. If there is any particular case, I shall be glad to look into it for the Senator.

Mr. Ross

I can give the cases to the Minister gladly but the cases seem to be general, not particular.

Dr. Ryan

I see. Senator Mooney advocated—and I think Senator Fitzpatrick agreed with him afterwards —am I right in saying "advocated"— the teaching of agriculture in the national schools.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

That was not my point.

Dr. Ryan

I do not agree with teaching agriculture in the national schools. I agree that the Reader they had, the one which had a rural bias, should be substituted for the Reader they have, but I would not go further than that. As regards the parish plan mentioned by Senator Fitzpatrick, if the Minister for Agriculture discussed this with me I do not remember but I saw my own objections to it. They were, first of all, that those men who were working the parish plan were under the Department of Agriculture direct. They were not on the county staff. It could happen that they might be crossing one another in their actions——

Mr. Fitzpatrick

No.

Dr. Ryan

——and so on. Also, of course, I think it would be impossible to provide enough agricultural graduates to cover the country with that type of scheme. It was better to put them into the county staff and get the work done in that way. I certainly had no prejudice against the scheme because Deputy Dillon brought it in. Why should I if it was a better scheme? On the whole, however, I think whatever staff we have would be better under the CAO as part of the county staff and all working together towards the one end.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

Does the Minister agree that more technical education in agriculture is necessary?

Dr. Ryan

I quite agree with that. Finally, I will sit down with this wish: that the technical school built by local effort in Cavan would be followed in many parts of the country.

Professor Hayes

It is a wish of a Minister for Finance all right.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Professor Quinlan

The Minister asked two questions. First, he asked about the application by the IAOS I understand such an application is pending and I suggest the Minister should receive it most sympathetically because there is nowhere he can invest money to better advantage than in the building up of the co-operative movement. His second question concerns the private agricultural schools and whether they had made application or not. I promise the Minister I will see that the application, if it has not been made, will be made very soon for the proper amount necessary.

Dr. Ryan

If it is going to come in that way, I better make sure they are not given it.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 2 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

Abstracts of Schedules A and B and Schedules A and B agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without recommendation and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Mr. Brosnahan

I understood from the Minister that he considered that teachers' salaries had kept pace with the cost of living. Is he not aware of the fact that for 68 per cent of the teachers, all women and single men, their salaries are £810 which in terms of the 1938 purchasing power would be the equivalent of £270 whereas the salaries for such teachers in 1938 was £318? It is, therefore, apparent that the salaries of the majority of teachers have not kept pace with the cost of living. In relation to the Minister's statement that he did not consider that a teacher would be a better teacher as a result of being paid more, I would refer him to a statement of a man who could not in any way be considered a materialist, Pádraig Pearse, who in the Murder Machine stated that there was a vital connection between any system of education and the remuneration paid to teachers.

Dr. Ryan

What I had in mind, speaking on the Senator's earlier remark, was that from the settlement made in 1945 the increase was greater than the increase in the cost of living. Probably I had in mind that they needed more, but, as the Senator will remember, I did say subsequently that I was not saying they were over-paid by any means. Regarding the second point, what I said was an individual teacher is not a better teacher if he gets more. He may be more content and to that extent he may be a better teacher.

Mr. Brosnahan

I am prepared to accept the Minister's explanation in regard to the first part, but teachers are not a race apart. As was stated in the McNair Report, they are human beings like everybody else, and if they feel a sense of grievance at the level of their remuneration it does have a frustrating effect on them and their work. I should like to ask one further question. In reference to the proposed legislation concerning the inter-changeability of types of service for the purpose of pension reckoning, is it contemplated that this legislation will have a retro-active effect?

Dr. Ryan

No. I do not think we could do that. I do not know if anybody is seeking to have it retro-active but it could not be done, I am afraid.

Question put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. Friday, July 27th, 1962.