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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Mar 1964

Vol. 57 No. 8

Private Business. - Criminal Justice Bill, 1963—Committee Stage.

SECTION I.

I move amendment No. 1:

In subsection (1) (b), line 14, before ", or" to insert "or any person coming to the assistance of such member when so acting".

I have two reasons for putting down this amendment. One quite simply, as I said on Second Reading, is that I cannot see why a member of the public who goes to the assistance of a guard should be put in a different category in relation to this offence. That is looking at it just from the point of view of a member of the public, but apart from that, I think there is an important consideration. Time and time again—fortunately not so often recently—references have been made to an objectionable type of incident, particularly in the city, where a member of the guards is attacked and members of the public stand around watching without taking part. They do not come to his assistance, I mean, although they might be willing to take part in the affray. There are many who will not come to the assistance of a guard and it is very important to create an atmosphere in which the public and the guards are at one, so nothing should be done to separate them in any way, and I contend that there is differentiation in the case of murder between a guard and a member of the public. This could tend to emphasise this probably already latent idea in the public mind that guards are a race apart.

I do not think it is arguing too much, for instance, to cite the case of a guard who is attempting to apprehend an armed robber. I, as a member of the public, go to the assistance of the guard and I am running a greater risk than he is because the robber could argue to himself that he might get away from one but his chance of getting away from two is very much less. He might want to use the gun he has with him and I do not think it unfair to suggest that he would naturally choose to shoot me rather that the guard because he runs the risk of imprisonment only if he shoots me while he runs the risk of hanging if he shoots the guard. Perhaps in these circumstances it is expecting too much of an armed robber to think all that out but he might have thought it out beforehand as an eventuality that would have to be met.

If hanging is a deterrent, as the Minister says it is when it comes to shooting or killing a guard, I think the same deterrent should apply to someone who comes to the guard's assistance. I was fortified in my belief that the Minister may come round to my way of thinking when he said this evening that it was desirable that our law should be the same in relation to cruelty to animals as the law in England and other countries, because in England, I understand, if a member of the public who comes to the assistance of a member of the police force and is murdered, the same penalty attaches to that murder as to the murder of a member of the police force.

It is a reasonable attitude to take. We should encourage people to come very willingly to the aid of the police and we should not do anything at all which seems to put guards and members of the public in different categories, particularly in the case which I envisage in which a member of the public is attempting to assist the guards.

Perhaps it would be helpful if I indicated my attitude at this stage. I am opposing the amendment. My position is fairly simple. I want to get rid of the death penalty entirely, if possible, but I am afraid that in our circumstances it is not possible, and so I am retaining it to the most limited extent. I think there are reasons which necessitate our retaining it in a limited number of categories and I want to keep the categories down to the absolute essential minimum and retain only the categories which I think necessary in the interests of the protection of society.

There is a very great difference between a policeman and a person coming to the aid of a policeman. The policeman has the duty and obligation to tackle criminals and therefore he is to that extent entitled to any element of protection which we can give him. An ordinary civilian does not have any such duty. What we are dealing with here is the professional type of criminal and the main advantage I see in retaining the death penalty in this type of case is that the person going about his unlawful pursuits may be deterred from carrying arms by the death penalty in this particular instance. The person he is likely to run up against is a policeman and as he comes against the death penalty afterwards for murdering a policeman, he is for his own protection and safety very likely to be deterred from carrying arms of any sort on him.

That is a subsidiary consideration, but my main defence of what I am proposing and my main reason for opposing Senator Sheldon's amendment is that the death penalty should go completely, if possible. If we cannot do that, we should keep the number of cases in which it is retained down to the minimum consistent with the safety, security and welfare of society.

It is no good quoting the British Homicide Act to me because I think the British have made a mistake and have got themselves into a mess. All sorts of anomalous situations can arise there. Certain types of murder which would not be regarded as very bad attract the death penalty, while others, which most people would regard as being in a far worse category, do not. I am anxious to avoid that situation. I want to keep our Act as simple as possible and retain the death penalty only in the bare minimum number of categories which are necessary.

I am entirely with the Minister in his wish ultimately to abolish the death penalty but I cannot be persuaded by what he says. Of course, he is right in saying that a member of the garda has a duty and obligation to tackle criminals but it seems to me that a member of the public, if called upon by a member of the garda or even should he see a member of the garda in difficulties, has the same duty and obligation to come to his aid. Therefore, it seems to me that if in such circumstances he does come to his assistance, it is illogical that his murder should be in a different category from the murder of a member of the garda.

I do not want to try to extend the capital murder categories any more than the Minister does, but I do think Senator Sheldon's amendment is a logical one. It is quite wrong to put the same action, on the one hand, the murder of a guard, in the capital murder category and on the other, the murder of a member of the public possibly called upon by that guard and properly coming to his assistance, in another category. The amendment is a logical and reasonable amendment, and I support it.

I support the amendment, too. I cannot possibly see how the Minister can say that an ordinary citizen has no duty to come to the assistance of a guard in the circumstances described here tonight. Surely it is his duty to assist the police force in every possible way.

He does not have to go out at night, as a policeman has to do, looking for criminals.

If a guard is trying to arrest a criminal who is resisting and he says: "Will you help me?"—

Most of us are in our beds at night when policemen are looking for criminals.

Arrests are made in the daytime as well as at night. Quite often robberies are committed in the daylight. I am sure that if I took the time to look at the pronouncements of the Minister for the past couple of years I should find that he had encouraged people to assist the police and said that it was their duty to do so; and I should think that he was perfectly right in saying that. I should say the same, even to the extent of risking their lives if it were for the good of the whole community. I cannot understand the Minister saying that he wishes to do away with the death penalty if he does not do away with it completely.

To be logical, the person going to the aid of the policeman would have to expect to be killed. Otherwise, the Senator's argument is not logical.

If it is protection for the policeman it is also protection for the ordinary citizen. I cannot put it any further than that and I think the Minister recognises that when he retains it here. It is also protection for anyone in the same circumstances.

I cannot agree with the Minister at all. He said he wants to get rid of the death penalty, if possible, and still retain it in a minimum number of categories. He told us most of the enlightened countries in the world favour that. I should prefer to be guided by Senator Boland, who has the courage of his convictions, with 15 years' experience as Minister for Justice. I was surprised when the Minister said a policeman has a duty and obligation to tackle criminals which a civilian has not. I think it is the duty of any civilian to go to the aid of the Garda at any time.

I said "to tackle criminals".

I think we should encourage them to do that. I was surprised at that statement. I think the Minister, in this Bill, should try to protect any citizen who has the public spirit and initiative to go to the aid of the Garda in enforcing the laws of the country. Remember they are our brothers and sisters.

A civilian has not the same duty to tackle criminals which the Garda have.

Last year we saw in the papers that a policeman had two criminals in a doorway, trying to arrest them, and, according to the papers, when he called for help, he was jeered at by many of the citizens of Dublin. The criminals were encouraged to escape, and did escape. I believe any public-spirited person will go, and should go, to the aid of our policemen when they are trying to arrest criminals. I think they have a duty to help the Garda. There is a lamentable lack of civic spirit and we are now creating an atmosphere where there is one law for the Garda and another for civilians. The garda is paid for and has a duty to tackle criminals. If a criminal shoots him that criminal will be hanged for murder; but if a civilian, with the public spirit and initiative to help the garda, is shot—and he may have a wife and children—the criminal may get off, as has happened in the past, with two or three years. That is completely wrong. We should encourage civilians to be public spirited and help the police. I am in entire agreement with the amendment.

There is considerable force in this amendment and I think it is very arguable. The point is that, if we start making further exceptions, excellent arguments can be adduced for including other kinds of crimes that should be punishable as capital offences so, although as I say, it is arguable and a good case can be made for it, I am against the amendment. A case could be made for hundreds of other categories as well as this one.

The provision that the murder of a policeman is a capital crime was inserted for a very good reason. It was not for the protection of the policeman as an individual, but for the protection of the policeman for what he represents. It is in the interests of every person in the community that the police force should be as effective as possible. It is in the interests of every member of the community that a member of the police should be regarded as sacrosanct, and that every criminal or person should regard it as the most serious thing he could do to attack a policeman, because a policeman represents law and order. Consequently, there is a very good case for leaving the Bill as it stands, and for leaving the killing of a policeman as a crime which will still carry the penalty of capital punishment. For that reason it is not a question of whether a policeman requires more protection than the person who comes to his aid, but a question of what a policeman stands for. I am against the amendment.

I cannot support this amendment. I made it clear on Second Reading that I am against capital punishment in toto. That still remains my attitude. However, I have great sympathy with the arguments put forward by those who support this amendment. I can quite see the logic of those arguments. Believe it or not, I have sympathy with the Minister in the predicament in which he finds himself. He believes that capital punishment should be abolished, but he had not the courage of his convictions to go ahead and abolish it in this Bill. The arguments he is forced to put up in opposing this amendment are a result of the attitude he has adopted. The Minister has said that the Garda have a duty to tackle criminals which civilians do not have. I agree with him that there is no legal obligation on civilians to tackle criminals, but I hold that if a civilian sees a garda in difficulties with a criminal he has a duty to go to the assistance of the garda.

Under this Bill if a criminal is being brought to justice jointly by a garda and a civilian, he would be liable to execution if he killed the garda whose professional duty it is to apprehend him, but if he killed the civilian who was doing a brave act gratuitously, he would not be guilty of capital murder and would be liable only to imprisonment. That is the sort of situation which going half way with this Bill creates and I think it brings forward the best possible case for abolishing capital punishment altogether.

I wish to support in the strongest possible terms this amendment. It is a most reasonable one and if any argument were necessary for it, it was provided by the Minister here tonight. In fact, had he advanced the argument on the Second Reading he advanced in trying to propose this amendment, it might have saved many who voted for the Bill having to worry whether capital punishment is or is not a deterrent. The Minister says in this very case that capital punishment is such a deterrent that the criminal, knowing that if he shoots a policeman he will be guilty of capital murder, would thereby in some way or other be persuaded not to carry arms as it would be too risky. That answers every query raised by anyone here as to whether capital punishment is or is not a deterrent. Then we had the second case—again a most amusing statement—in which the Minister said that a garda had to go out and track criminals and that the civilian did not have to do such a thing. He did not have to give the garda help——

I did not say that. Please do not misquote me.

No. The Minister did not say anything at all like that.

The Minister said he was not obliged to go to the assistance of the garda.

No. I said he has no duty to tackle criminals, a completely different matter.

He has not a duty to tackle criminals. We hold that if a garda is in difficulty a civilian standing by has a specific duty to go to the aid of the garda, and what is that? That is the simple logic of the situation. It will have a very bad effect on the public spirit of our citizens in that regard. They are already too lacking in it. This now is putting a further division there. I cannot see why two categories should be introduced. Consequently, I appeal to the House to face this amendment and ensure that it will be carried. If you have had the pleasure, as I have had, since the last day of reading the commonsense words of Senator Gerald Boland, backed by fifteen years of experience as Minister for Justice, you will see the necessity for this amendment. I appeal to the House to ensure that this amendment is carried.

The Chair wishes to draw the attention of the House to the fact that it is now 10 o'clock. The Chair understands there is agreement to continue after 10 o'clock.

Is there likely to be much delay? Is the debate likely to last long? We have four amendments.

Two of them will not be moved.

I understand it has been arranged that the amendments standing in the name of Senator Lindsay will not be moved on this Stage but that on Report Stage he will be at liberty to move them. That means that only two amendments will be moved tonight.

It is all very well to accuse me of lack of logic in what I am proposing. I can equally and with just as much force accuse the movers of this amendment of complete lack of logic. If we accept this amendment where will we stop? If we retain the death penalty for the citizen who goes to the aid of the garda why not retain it in the case of a man murdered by a burglar who breaks into his home?

Is this not something that is happening contemporaneously with what a garda——

There is no logic whatever in retaining the death penalty for a citizen who goes to the aid of a garda and not retaining it in the case of a man killed by a burglar. If the proposer of this amendment wanted to retain the death penalty entirely, that would be logical. I understand that point of view and I disagree with it. However, if I am to be accused of illogicality in the Bill, surely I can return the compliment in regard to this amendment? Look at what Senator Sheldon wants us to believe. He says we should retain the death penalty in the case of a person going to the aid of a garda so that people may be encouraged to go to the aid of the garda in situations involving an apprehension of criminals. That presupposes that the person going to the aid of the garda expects firmly that he will be killed because the proposal affects him only in so far as he gets killed. Otherwise the retention of the death penalty in that context does not have the force the Senator wants it to have.

I think there is logic in my position. If I were to do anything to make any change in this Bill I would abolish the death penalty for the murder of Garda officers or prison warders. That is the sort of change I should like to make but I do not think I am Justified in making it at this stage. The death penalty has some deterrent effect in this particular limited category and, therefore, we should retain it. However, I shall not extend it one iota beyond what I consider to be the strict minimum which is necessary for the preservation of public order and peace.

I have a great deal of sympathy with the Minister. He is quite right when he says I do not want to see the changes that are made in the Bill at all. That is true. I think the death penalty is a deterrent. The Minister does not agree. On that point we divide. I cannot quite follow his suggestion that this is the thin edge of the wedge and that, if you do it for this category, why not for this, that and the other categories? I do not think that is quite fair.

If the Minister feels constrained to retain it, as he does—and I can quite appreciate that it is sort of against his will that he does it, holding his views on capital punishment—once it is retained for a member of the Garda Síochána in the execution of his duties, I do not think it is proper that anyone going to his aid should be put in a different category. The Minister says that that presupposes the the person knows he is in danger of being shot. The point is that the potential murderer knows he will get two very different penalties if he shoots a garda or if he shoots an ordinary member of the public going to the assistance of the garda. When the member of the public is going to the aid of the garda he may not know that the man is armed. He may rush out of a bank or some office and which of the two will he shoot—the fellow in uniform or the member of the public?

Do you really think he will take that sort of decision?

If he is the sort of hardened criminal the Minister suggests is really involved here who habitually carries arms I think he would probably be accustomed to even more difficult decisions than that.

He has read the law.

He has only to read this debate to realise the position.

He might shoot both.

He might not. It is quite possible he might escape from one but it is very difficult to escape from two.

Surely he has a better chance of frightening off a civilian? If he is going to shoot anybody he will shoot the man whose job it is to arrest him, not some passer-by or bystander.

It is arguable in particular circumstances. I would not follow the Minister in that at all.

We are not going to persuade each other anyway.

I am in sympathy with the Minister in holding to his point of view on capital punishment. He is going to retain something in which he is not a great believer himself. Let us take a person involved in an armed robbery or a crime of that kind who whether in uniform or not has been detailed for the particular job. Anyone who attempts to apprehend a robber ought to be protected whether he is detailed for the job or not.

If we accept Senator Sheldon's presumption, namely, that capital punishment is a deterrent, his argument and his conclusion would, of course, be correct and the amendment could be accepted. First of all, we have to agree that the retention of capital punishment is a deterrent and it will reduce the number of murders we are likely to have. This is a matter upon which we can have two different viewpoints.

Since the last debate I have gone to the trouble of looking up the percentage per million of the population in England, over the years since capital punishment was abolished there, to see whether there was any increase in the number of murders. I found that prior to the abolition the average per million was 3.75. Since then it has varied. One year it was 4, the next 3.2, the next 3.7 and the next 3.6. There really has not been any increase, taking the facts as we know them in the country nearest to us. That forces me to the conclusion that in England certainly the retention of capital punishment, when it was there for all types of crime, did not act as a deterrent.

I have not looked up the statistics for other countries. Capital punishment has been abolished in many other European countries. In Belgium it fell into desuetude some 40 years ago and there has been only one case of an execution since then. I think that was during the 1914-18 war. That being so, I cannot agree with Senator Sheldon that the retention of capital punishment is a deterrent. If one does not agree with him one cannot support his contention and one is bound to vote against it. The next point is whether the Bill should simply say capital punishment should be abolished.

It is the duty of the Government simply, if you like, to influence public opinion and let us remember they cannot force their views on public opinion. They must legislate as they believe the common conscience of the people require them to legislate. Personally, I feel that the common conscience of this country, as in most civilised communities, is against the retention of the medieval concept of hanging people. Public conscience has gradually reacted against all sorts of violence of that nature. There was a time when it was general to engage in fueds in order to kill someone with whom one had merely a difference of opinion.

We often feel like that.

There was a time when public conscience felt that the execution of the criminal was such an act of desirable vengeance that people turned up and applauded at public hangings.

We are now getting away from the amendment.

I beg your pardon. The reaction of human nature is against the public execution. The gardaí deal with professional criminals. A garda who goes out to patrol the streets of Dublin knows that if he meets a criminal in the ordinary course of events he is a professional criminal. I hold that the death penalty should be abolished altogether, but public conscience might excuse its being retained in that case. The criminal a garda meets at night, whether he is alone or is with somebody else, has decided to do a robbery or commit some other crime. That crime is planned days in advance. These criminals know that if they are going to be tackled by anyone the only person they anticipate will tackle them is a garda. Therefore, they have to consider whether they will carry weapons or not, whether they will carry flick knives or guns. In cold deliberation they plan their crime. If they carry flick knives or guns, in their excitement they will use them. They say to themselves: "Suppose we meet policemen and suppose in the excitement of the moment we use those knives or guns, we are faced with hanging." That may have some slight effect in arriving at conclusions in their deliberations. It is possible that there may be some excuse for allowing the amendment but I think there is good excuse for extending it further than it has gone. I find myself compelled to oppose the amendment.

That argument would also justify Senator Cole's amendment.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 26.

  • Carton, Victor.
  • Cole, John C.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McDonald, Charles.
  • Ó Conalláin, Dónall.
  • Quigley, Joseph.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.
  • Ross, J.N.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.

Níl

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Brennan, John J.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Costelloe, John.
  • Desmond, Cornelius.
  • Donegan, Bartholomew.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Fitzgerald, John.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Thomas P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • McGlinchey, Bernard.
  • Mooney, Joseph M.
  • Nash, John Joseph.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Ó Ciosáin, Éamon.
  • Ó Donnabháin, Seán.
  • Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Ó Siochfhradha, Pádraig.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, Patrick W.
  • Ryan, William.
  • Yeats, Michael.
Tellers: Tá: Senators Cole and Sheldon; Níl: Senators Farrell and Ó Donnabháin.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 not moved.

I move amendment No. 4:

In subsection (1) (b), to add a new subparagraph as follows:

"( ) murder done in the course of a robbery or attempted robbery where the weapon used was brought to the scene of the murder by the accused;".

I would ask the Minister to look at this amendment in a slightly different way from that in which he viewed the previous amendments. This is a case where the accused deliberately prepared himself for the eventuality that he will murder, if necessary. You might say that he brings the weapon simply to frighten somebody out of his way. I think he probably has it in his mind to use the weapon and to kill, if necessary.

When we consider the vast increase in this sort of crime—robbery with violence or injury to the person—which has taken place across the water and, to a lesser extent, perhaps, here and the complete disregard for human life on the part of those carrying out the crimes, I think we should retain capital punishment as a deterrent in this case. I have limited my demands in the amendment by saying that only if the weapon actually used in the murder was brought to the scene of the crime by the accused.

I am excluding cases where the accused might lift some weapon or some article that might be lying at hand where he was caught red-handed or surrounded to try to intimidate somebody who was going to capture him. It must be only if he brought the weapon to the scene of the crime with the intention, obviously, of using it, particularly if it is a gun. If he brought it there he was going to use it so far as he thought it necessary. He was going to commit murder if necessary.

I am, perhaps, encouraged a little bit by what the Minister said in discussing the first amendment to the Bill. The Minister himself said—and was, I think, strongly supported in nearly the same words by Senator Nash—that this would deter criminals from carrying weapons; that is, that making the murder of a policeman a capital murder would probably deter criminals from carrying lethal weapons. I think then that the criminal who does bring that weapon should be treated severely, as severely as the law can provide, as a protection for the ordinary citizen who must be the victim. I think Senator Nash said practically the same thing when speaking against Senator Sheldon's amendment, that it would probably take the weapon out of crime. I am asking only if the person brings the weapon with him that it should then be classed as capital murder.

I am in favour of the amendment proposed by Senator Cole. I am one of those who believe that the maintenance of the death penalty is a deterrent. I am sorry I cannot agree with Senator Nash's statistics because you must compare like with like. Years ago in England there were poor people who murdered because they were poor, because their wives and children were hungry, but that day is gone in England and in this country and with the coming of the affluent society things are different so it is wrong to compare what happened years ago with the present time.

If you had the death penalty in England at the present time, instead of varying between 3.6 and 3.8 the rate might be as low as two per cent. If a man carries a gun or a knife he is prepared to use it if necessary if he is apprehended by the police or by any other person. If he goes to a place with the intention of using it and if he does use it to save his own life I think he should pay the penalty. With that type of person it should be retained as I believe it would be a deterrent.

What is the definition in a case like that? Suppose a robber takes along a jemmy for forcing open a door; he is tackled and hits someone over the head with the jemmy. Suppose he takes a heavy torch, surely that could be a weapon, or if he took off his shoe and hit someone over the head or if he had a walking stick and hit someone. All these are weapons. You are dealing with a very serious matter. A case like this ultimately ends up with a person being tried for his life. Everything must be defined very carefully because a human life is too serious a matter. You should have a very careful definition of a weapon as otherwise a heavy torch a man brought with him for light, a jemmy for opening a door, a walking stick he happens to have with him, may be included.

Briefly, I am opposed to the amendment on the same grounds as I opposed Senator Sheldon's first amendment. In principle I am against extending in any way the number of categories for which the death penalty is retained. I did say on the Second Stage that if I were to ask Senators individually to indicate to me what was the particular type of crime for which they would like the death penalty retained I would get a different answer from practically every Senator.

I am reinforced in that opinion because the distinguished Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Lord MacDermott, in a speech he made in Birmingham last year, indicated that he would wish to add to the categories of crimes which continued to attract the death sentence under the British Homicide Act of 1957 a number of other categories. These included murder in furtherance of rape or indecent assault, murder callously planned in advance and murder in the course of destroying evidence of any offence. Once we start to extend the categories at all we can advance all sorts of sound, logical, reasons for having further extensions. I do not think we should extend the categories at all. My approach to the problem is to get rid of the death penalty to the greatest possible extent.

The British Commission on Capital Punishment which reported in 1955 after long study of the possibility of grading murders — and that is what Senator Cole is proposing here—with regret came to the following conclusion: "The object of our quest is chimerical and must be abandoned." They came regretfully to the conclusion that they could not devise or recommend any system for the grading of murders. I do not think we could either. If we were to sit here in this House on this Bill for the rest of the year I do not think we would arrive at a satisfactory list of murders for which the whole House would agree the death penalty should be retained.

I would appeal to the Minister between this and Report Stage to reconsider this matter.

I just want to give some reasons for reconsideration. We have reached a stage where serious robbery could draw anything from five to ten years penal servitude. We have got evidence from the Minister's answer in the Dáil that the average length spent in prison by a murderer who was found guilty was six years. Therefore, if a criminal is caught in a major robbery he stands to draw a sentence of five to ten years but he does not stand to increase effectively the length of his sentence by one day if he shoots a person if that adds to his chance of getting away. What is the justice of that situation?

People I have spoken to in the last couple of weeks since this Bill came up are in a grave state of uneasiness over the shocking record of the past two years: unsolved murder after unsolved murder culminating in a poor old lady battered to death in Dublin while the whole resources of catching criminals, identikits and everything else, were of no avail. There is great uneasiness at what is happening and at the way we are coping with the problem. That uneasiness could be avoided by acting on Senator Boland's suggestion when he resisted the removal of the deterrent at this critical juncture.

As regards the point raised by Senator Nash as to whether a torch or a jemmy is a weapon, it would be for the courts to decide whether it was a weapon carried to the scene of the crime by the murderer. The courts would be quite capable of deciding whether a torch was a weapon. It is not a weapon as intended in my amendment. Those things should be left to the courts. If the Minister accepted my amendment the courts would have no difficulty in deciding on it. It could be left to the jury, if you like, to interpret whether a jemmy or a heavy torch was a weapon brought to the scene of the crime.

It must be a weapon.

I think neither would be a weapon.

The weapon is the thing with which he actually commits the murder.

It must be brought as a weapon.

The Senator is mending his hand. That is the sort of anomaly that can arise.

I should like to comment on the figures quoted by Senator Nash. He said there was no increase per 1,000. Those figures probably do not include crimes previously classified as murder. If the statistics were made out in the same form as before the 1957 Homicide Act, they would probably be considerably greater. I believe the Minister is making a mistake in not accepting this amendment. In his opening remarks on Senator Sheldon's amendment, he said that the British have got themselves into a mess over the Homicide Act, 1957. I wonder if that is so, was it public opinion that drove them into that position. If there had been a free vote in this House and in the other House on this matter, and if people were encouraged to express freely their views about this Bill, the Minister might have got a very different Bill. In spite of what the Minister said on Second Reading, I think the majority of public opinion would be against the Minister on this Bill, and the Minister is there to interpret to a certain extent, what the public want.

The Minister has agreed to reconsider the matter on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 5:

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:

"( ) A person sentenced to penal servitude for life pursuant to subsection (1) of this section shall not be released until the expiration of twelve years at least from the date of the sentence, save on the order of the Court of Criminal Appeal."

I made it clear before, and I want to repeat, that I am wholeheartedly in favour of the abolition of capital punishment. I cannot over-emphasise that, but that does not mean, for one moment, that I regard the crime of murder as anything but the vilest crime that can be committed against humanity by any citizen. Now that we are deciding on the abolition of the death penalty, it becomes very important that we should ensure that severe and adequate penalties are imposed on persons convicted of murder and, more important still, that the sentences are served.

On Second Reading, the Minister and I had words about the length of sentences served. The Minister seemed to think I was trying to score some political debating point. That is not so. Nothing was further from my mind. I agree that the figures given by the Minister, taken over a long period, are fairly consistent but they are consistent in that they show that very short sentences have been served. Perhaps the Minister had the 'flu or something like that on the last occasion, was in bad humour, and misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

One point which has been brought before members of the Oireachtas and the public in general by the debates on this Bill, is that the average sentence served for murder is six years. The minimum sentence is three years, and the maximum is 11 years. I was shocked when I heard those figures, considered them, and realised what they meant. I am also certain beyond doubt that the public at large are gravely concerned and disturbed to know that a man who commits murder in his early twenties is likely to be set free after three years, and that according to present practice he certainly will not have to serve more than ten years.

The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that any person who, but for this Bill, would be liable to the death penalty and instead is sentenced to penal servitude for life, will not be released from prison until he has served 12 years, unless on the order of the Court of Criminal Appeal. I think such an amendment to the Bill is necessary in order to restore public confidence, and to satisfy the public at large that adequate safeguards are available to them. In the past, penal servitude for life was looked upon as a very grave penalty and something that was adequate to put a person guilty of murder out of circulation for the rest of his life, or most of it, but now people know that penal servitude for life means from three to six or nine years.

In this Second Reading speech, making a case for the abolition of the death penalty, the Minister said:

The situation which has thus developed is, in my opinion, quite undesirable. In effect, the Executive have been deciding which murderers should be hanged rather than which of them should be reprieved. I consider that the law should indicate what the penalty for murder should be and that that penalty, when imposed by the trial judge in accordance with the law, should be carried out unless there are extenuating circumstances which would justify the Government taking action to commute the sentence in a particular case.

That is really the case I am making in my amendment. I say that the law should prescribe the sentence which should be imposed on a murderer and when that sentence is imposed by the judge it should be carried out.

It may be said that there may be special circumstances in a particular case. If that is so, I have added a saving proviso to the section which enables the criminal to go to the Court of Criminal Appeal before the period of 12 years and ask that he be released. It is not alone essential that justice should be done but it is essential that justice be seen to be done and seen to be done in public. I cannot emphasise enough that I am not making a political point out of this and that I am not saying that the Fianna Fáil Government are guilty of letting people out the backdoor any more than any other Government. But, human nature being what it is, Ministers and Governments can be and are under pressure from time to time to exercise clemency and mercy in certain cases.

If it goes out from the Oireachtas that the death penalty is abolished, that a person can go in and kill an old woman in an isolated part of the country for her money in the knowledge that he will be unlucky if he has to serve more than six years if he is caught, he can take two chances. He can take the chance that he will get away scot free or he can take the chance that if he is caught and convicted he will have to serve three years, if he is lucky, and with average luck he will get away with six years. That is something for which the public will not stand.

I do not wish to exploit Senator Gerald Boland's speech but Senator Boland was Minister for Justice in this country for 15 years. Certainly, if we were to take his speech literally, we should be shocked. In the course of his speech in favour of retaining capital punishment in toto, he made a number of statements. He said:

We must have regard to the fact that there is no such thing as life imprisonment. Under the British law it meant 20 years in jail and since the war it has been 11½ years and I think the maximum sentence was 10 years.

But he said something that is even more alarming:

The practice has been to just commit the murderer and he gets out after two or three years if there is a change of Government.

Those are not my words.

They are not mine.

They are the words of a former Minister for Justice in this country. They are the words of a member of this House. Senator Gerald Boland went on to say:

I know of one man who got a death sentence reduced to one of manslaughter. The court decided that and he was released after 14 months. There was a change of Government and the man could go around after he had killed his enemy. I know several cases where people were knocking around after five or six years in jail. I do not think that is right at all.

Those are the words of a former Minister for Justice in this State. They are not my words. I say that if any change of Government can bring about that sort of thing it is a deplorable state of affairs. I do not know what Minister was responsible for it. I say with the greatest sincerity that I do not care what Minister was responsible for it; it is wrong and it should not be tolerated. The only doubt I have about my amendment is that the term of 12 years is inadequate and that I should have inserted 15 or 20 years.

The only case the Minister can make in opposing my amendment is that there are cases in which clemency should be exercised; that there are cases where the maximum sentence should not be served on account of the health conditions of the convicted person or on account of some other peculiar circumstance. I concede that but what is wrong with leaving it to the Court of Criminal Appeal which is a court consisting of three High Court judges in this country to consider an application for a mitigation of the sentence; to consider it in open court; to let the accused person put forward his case; to let the Minister or the Attorney General give his views and to let the court make up its mind in public? That is something that could be stood over, something that would be done in public.

I certainly do not think it is necesary for me to prolong my argument in favour of the amendment. I am supported by the public reaction to the statement by the Minister that people get out after committing murder from three, four or five years. The sentences are here. I am not making a political issue of this. I shall go back to 1926, as the Minister did. He gave figures. When replying to the Second Reading debate the Minister said:

I shall go back through the years to 1926, 1927, 1929, 1930 and 1931, purely as an example, and read out the length of sentence served by persons convicted of murder during those years: six years; six years; two years; one year; seven years; six years; four years; three years and two years.

Then the Minister came to the years 1946, 1948, 1949, 1951 and 1954. The periods served for murder during those years were three years, five years, six years, three years, four years, seven years, eleven years and six years—all comparatively small sentences for this dreadful crime of murder.

Bear in mind that when these sentences were served we had capital punishment and some people think that capital punishment is a deterrent. I am against it whether or not it is a deterrent but we must admit that it has a deterrent effect. Now we are removing it. I say that in place of it we should have some statutory guarantee that people convicted of murder will suffer severe sentences. It should go out from the Parliament of this country to people who intend to indulge in crimes of violence which may end in the death of citizens that they will be faced with stiff sentences and that no amount of political pressure or public sympathy will get them out of jail unless they can convince a tribunal of three judges sitting in open court in this country that they are entitled to get out of jail.

I agree with a great deal of what Senator Fitzpatrick has said about this although I do not agree with the method which he proposes for dealing with it. I fully agree that it was a most extraordinary situation in recent years that a condemned murderer was theoretically, at any rate, in danger of being executed but that if his sentence of execution was commuted he might get out of jail in a comparatively short time, five or six years or possibly even less. That was quite an unsustainable position. I am quite convinced that public opinion is against capital punishment but on the other hand I am convinced that people feel that a convicted murderer should be kept in jail for a considerable number of years. I would say that in the ordinary course this should be in the region of 10 years. Consequently, I feel there should be some change in the policy and practice in relation to condemned murderers. I am aware that the approach to imprisonment is continually changing and there are psychiatric and other treatments now being brought into use which are very proper and which may eventually mean that people convicted of murder may be released. It may be proper to release them after that treatment in a lesser time than 10 years but for the moment that time has not yet arrived.

In this Bill we are taking a very big step and for the time being at any rate we should ensure that those who have committed murder should serve sentences of something in the region of ten years. Many people do not agree with this step, and to those who feel uneasy about it, it should be made clear that murder is still regarded as a very serious and dreadful crime and something for which reparation cannot be made by a few years in jail. Consequently, I am in favour of much of what Senator Fitzpatrick has said but I am not in favour of the method of approaching it, of leaving it to the Court of Appeal. I see no reason why the power to remit some of the sentence should be taken from the Minister or the Government.

I support Senator Fitzpatrick's amendment and the only fault I have to find with it is that I believe 12 years is inadequate. I would be more satisfied if it were either 15 or 20 years. I believe that if the Dáil and Seanad in their wisdom abolish the death penalty we must substitute a penalty that will emphasise the terrible gravity of the crime of murder. I also believe that we must restore public confidence because the majority of people were shocked and greatly disturbed when they read in the newspapers that life imprisonment meant from one to 11 years. I was shocked myself because I thought it meant at least 21 years. I do not agree with Senator Ryan when he says that public opinion is against capital punishment. If a referendum were held, or even a free vote of this House, I believe the majority would be in favour of capital punishment. Even members of Senator Ryan's own Party spoke in favour of retaining capital punishment but afterwards voted against it. It is very important that we should have adequate penalties and that those penalties or sentences are served. I believe the power should not be left to the Minister, or to any Minister of Justice, or to any Government, to reduce sentences. Sentences should only be reduced by order of the Court of Criminal Appeal.

I wish to support Senator Fitzpatrick's amendment. Like Senator L'Estrange, I should like to see the sentence being 20 years. It is a big step to do away with capital punishment and the person who commits murder should know that he will get 20 years. I would appeal to the Minister to accept the amendment.

The purpose of punishment is threefold, retribution, a deterrent, and reformation. Surely in this day and age retribution no longer enters into the matter in a civilised country. That is a thing of the past even if it were not contrary to the teaching of Christianity and of most religions. It is reduced, therefore, to a deterrent and to reformation. To take the average of anything I submit is most illogical. You might as well say that no man would drown in a river because its average depth was one foot but it might be 18 feet deep at one spot and only one foot or six inches at another.

Let us take the most prevalent form of murder. It is that of infanticide by unhappy, unmarried mothers. In those cases they can be tried for murder or infanticide and if convicted they would have to be sentenced to life imprisonment. As I say, in this day and age vengeance and retribution are things we should not consider.

I do not think that a woman who is charged with infanticide must be sentenced to life imprisonment. The Infanticide Act of 1952 altered that considerably.

If she commits murder deliberately, or abandons her child in such circumstances that she should reasonably believe—that a reasonable person would believe—that is is bound to result in the death of the child, that would be murder. There is also murder which is committed at various degrees of responsibility. The M'Naghten Rules, I am glad to say, no longer operate. The test that was employed formerly was: does a man think or believe that it is something which is wrong? That was the test, not whether a man was sane or insane, not whether he acted under some mental compulsion, but whether he believes it to be wrong. Fortunately, those Rules have gone but even so there are various degrees of responsibility. There is the man who is barely beyond the stage of sanity. Is he to be sentenced to a minimum period of 12 years? There is also the case—we had one in Cork—of the man who finds his wife in adultery and who acts on the impulse of the moment. He is sentenced to life in those cases.

Again, are we to be actuated by retribution or must we consider only the deterrent and reformation? In all these cases I do think, while murder is a heinous crime—the taking of life whether by manslaughter or murder is heinous—we must take into consideration the mental outlook of the person. In prison these people are kept under constant surveillance and if it is felt that they are unlikely to offend again, if there are certain extenuating circumstances, and after three, four, five or eight years as the case may be, they are recommended for release by the prison authorities —and I take it it would only be on that basis that they would be released, on the basis of their record—I think they should be released. If they are married and have children, they and their families should not be subjected to the further disgrace, after seven or eight years, of going back to the court and having their crime made public again, a matter which would cause pain also to the family of the murdered person. The proper procedure would be to have a confidential report submitted by the prison authorities to the Department of Justice. We are all proud of our civil servants and the officials of the Department of Justice should be allowed to weigh the report and, having considered it in accordance with certain set principles, advise the Minister as to whether or not clemency should be extended.

I should like to support Senator Fitzpatrick's amendment as I believe some emphasis should be laid on the gravity of the crime of murder. While we must admire the efforts that are being made to rehabilitate prisoners in general, there should be a definite distinction drawn between convicted murderers and other criminals and in this regard a definite deterrent should be placed in the legislation to replace the death penalty.

I am impressed by the case made by Senator Fitzpatrick. I am against capital punishment not because I believe it is a deterrent—I cannot make up my mind fully on that score—but because of my anxiety as to whether the State has the right to take life at all, just as the murderer has not the right to take life. However, as Senator Fitzpatrick says, society must protect itself and I fully appreciate the necessity for stiff sentences. It is disquieting to find, according to the figures read out by the Minister and quoted by Senator Fitzpatrick, that people convicted of murder are released after a few years imprisonment. There would be many people who would like to see capital punishment abolished but who would like to be assured that society is adequately protected especially in view of the increase in the number of crimes of violence.

This is a matter on which we should all agree and not one that should be argued out to the point of having a division. I should like the Minister to consider the view put forward by Senator Fitzpatrick and to some degree the counter view put forward by Senator Nash, both professional men in this sphere. The more humane view has been advanced by Senator Nash. The effect of his argument would appear to be that we should distinguish between the types of murder committed. My view is that premeditated murder should be severely punished but that a lenient approach should be taken in the case of crime resulting from emotional upset.

My amendment makes provision for all that.

I cannot agree with Senator L'Estrange that there should be a stereotyped punishment. In order to allay any fears that may be in the public mind, perhaps the Minister would again look at this matter and consider whether stiff sentences should be imposed and carried out and that there would not be mitigation to the degree which has operated in the past.

I wish briefly to support the amendment proposed by Senator Fitzpatrick. The only misgiving I have is that, in a period of transition where the death penalty has been removed, a sentence of 12 years is perhaps too slight. A figure of 15 or even 20 years could be inserted and in another five or ten years, when we see more clearly where we are going, the question of lowering that figure might be considered.

The abolition of capital punishment is an abrupt change and I should hope that in the transition period a sentence of penal servitude for murder would mean something more than it has meant since the State was founded. Of all the cases quoted there were only two cases where more than six years of a sentence were served. Most of the cases involved imprisonment for three, four or five years. That is a most unsatisfactory situation.

What I want to emphasise, as I did in a previous amendment, is that the situation is doubly unsatisfactory in the light of the number of unsolved murders in the past two years, which must rank as the worst period of our history where such crimes are concerned. Glaring crimes that should have been within the competence of the police force to detect have remained unsolved despite headlines that appeared in the paper a year or two ago to the effect that our police force were armed with the latest in science and were being trained in this, that and the other.

Is this relevant?

We still have probably the worst record we ever had at any period of our history.

These statements have been repeated over and over again.

They are not relevant.

The suggestion has been made by Senator Nash that the Department of Justice should take over the functions of the courts and that the Department of Justice should decide whether the term of imprisonment should be three, four, five or ten years. That is absolutely absurd and would take away from the courts powers they should have.

On a point of order, I did not say any such thing. What I said was that from a deterrent and reformation point of view, the prison authorities, who would have the person under constant supervision every day, at the end of three, four or five years would be in the best position to decide whether he was likely to commit the offence again, whether he was completely reformed, and they could report to the Minister for Justice.

A point of correction.

My point still holds in that it was proposed by Senator Nash to let it stay with the Department of Justice. That is a situation we simply cannot accept, because if the Department of Justice can intervene in relation to a sentence for one crime, why not in relation to every sentence imposed by the courts? The same case could be made for intervention in other cases. At the moment we should be far more concerned with our unsolved crimes than with chasing into the nebulous region of rehabilitation where, as was stated here tonight, political connections might aid considerably in the rehabilitation.

You are contemptible.

As a public representative, I must protest against the prospect of such an occurrence.

I concede there is a great deal of merit in Senator Fitzpatrick's amendment, but I have my doubts about it. For one thing, the fixing of any term of years—in this case, 12—is a very arbitrary method. I cannot see any reason why one period of years rather than another should be named. I would be afraid that if we fixed 12 years, it would be taken not so much as the minimum but the maximum.

Senator Fitzpatrick said "at least 12 years."

I know very well what he said. As well as that, there seems to be a confusion of thought about two things. If we are to have a degree of clemency retained, it should be just retained and not written down as a given period of time. An appeal to a court is not the same——

There is statutory precedent for it.

I do not care whether there is statutory precedent or not. Everybody fixes the precedent as it suits himself. I am not to be taken as maligning the Senator: I would do it myself; the Minister for Justice does it frequently and so do many others, as and when it suits them. The point I see in it is that this cuts across the doctrine of clemency, which should be retained. From that point of view, I cannot say I like the amendment.

Mr. Haughey rose.

I expect the House will agree that the Minister is now to be taken as concluding the debate.

On that point, I do not want to be regarded as an obstructionist, but we did agree to sit late—whether it was wise to decide to sit beyond 10 o'clock is beside the point—and when we do agree to sit late, a situation should not then be created whereby if we propose to call for our rights, we are to be regarded as unreasonable.

If the Senator wishes to speak after the Minister, he may do so, but the Chair wishes to draw the attention of Senators to the fact that there is now a great deal of repetition.

I wish, first of all, to say I deplore and regard as contemptible the suggestion by Senator Quinlan that political considerations enter into this matter in any way. I shall outline briefly for the benefit of the House what happens in a case where a prisoner serving a life sentence has the balance of his sentence remitted at a particular point of time.

The initiative always comes from the prison, where the prisoner has been under constant observation from the point of view of his progress, his conduct, his rehabilitation. Any suggestion of this kind has always emanated from within the prison. The case is reviewed in all its aspects. This includes consideration of the original crime and, if possible, the trial judge is consulted. Police reports are procured. Finally, the proposal is put not to the Minister for Justice but to the Government. It is an Executive function.

To suggest that any responsible Minister for Justice would make a recommendation in regard to a prisoner serving a life sentence on any but the most legitimate grounds is to talk nonsense. The Government have before them the whole case from its very beginning. Every aspect in regard to the progress of the prisoner is brought before them and in the light of the full information, they make their decision.

I have never encountered any suggestion of pressure from the public. Indeed one aspect of the situation that rather amazes me is that, while at the time a murder is committed public excitement is intense, from the moment the prisoner is sentenced the public lose interest in the case. As far as the public are concerned, I have never seen any evidence of any pressure on the Government or the Minister for Justice to commute the sentence.

As Senator Sheldon has rightly pointed out, unless we are to do away with the prerogative of mercy, this amendment means absolutely nothing: if we are to retain the prerogative of mercy, this amendment is simply a waste of time. I repeat that the decision must be one for the Executive. This, it must be appreciated, is not the sort of decision to be left in the hands of the courts whose duty is to fix responsibility for a crime and impose the sentence laid down in laws passed by the Oireachtas. The normal court procedure is not suitable for the exercise of this function particularly having regard to the desirability of avoiding publicity.

The prerogative of mercy is not something that should be exercised by the courts. In any country in the world I know of this function is with the Executive.

Many Senators have been concerned about the short length of sentences that have been served in this country. I agree there is some cause for concern there. I feel sure the average length of sentence for murder in this country came as a surprise to a lot of people. I should, however, point out again that each case is considered on its merits. I believe that where a prisoner has been completely rehabilitated and is no longer a menace to society in any way there is no justification for keeping him in prison to the point where he will become degenerate, either physically or mentally, or both, and where the process of rehabilitation will be undone. At this point he may be unfit for anything but to remain in prison for the remainder of his natural life.

Senators have been concerned about the short sentences which have been served and with the implications of such short sentences on the desirability of protecting society against the recurrence of the crimes which the criminals concerned had committed. The facts, however, do not show such concern to be necessary. In no case since 1925 has the release of a prisoner resulted in his again committing a similar type of crime and there is no evidence that the commutation and remission of sentences has, in fact, had any effect on the protection of society.

When a Government considers the question of releasing a prisoner all these circumstances are taken into account — the original nature of the crime, the culpability of the prisoner, his mentality, the whole question of whether there is any possibility of a recurrence of the crime, the effect of continued imprisonment on the prisoner, the environment into which he is going to be released and, of course, the necessity for ensuring that the sentence does have a deterrent effect. All these factors are taken into account. It is only when the Government are satisfied a person is fully able to take his place again, in society, without the slightest risk to that society, that he is released.

Does any Senator seriously suggest that when a man has expiated his crime, rehabilitated himself and is ready to take his place again in society, he should be kept for any period of time in prison simply and solely that he may be further punished? I appreciate that when a crime has been committed and when a person has served four, five or six years and the question of his release comes before any Executive, there is a tendency to forget the enormity of the crime and consider on humanitarian grounds only the human being seeking to be released. Nevertheless, I would like to quote the following occurrence as an indication of how objectivity can be achieved.

On one occasion the Government in commuting a death sentence to penal servitude for life, said in effect: "We feel we should commute this sentence, but we also consider this man should serve a long sentence. We want, if ever the question of his release from custody comes before a future Executive, to have this opinion of ours brought to their notice." I think that type of decision could be taken more often and could go a considerable way towards meeting the objections Senators have to the comparatively short sentences which down the years have been served by people who have had their sentences commuted.

This is not a matter which should be brought into this Bill in any shape or form. The exercise by the Government of their prerogative is something for which the Government can be criticised in the ordinary way by the Oireachtas. If the Seanad or Dáil feel the Executive are overlenient as a matter of policy in this matter, then the Executive can be criticised and brought to task by the Oireachtas for maladministration of one of its particular functions. I think we can do no more than that. It will certainly go out now from this House and from the Dáil to Executives of the future that the Oireachtas are perturbed about the comparatively short sentences served in the past and future Governments will have regard to that. In deciding any particular case they will keep in mind the long-term effects of comparatively short sentences.

I think Senator Fitzpatrick has really achieved his purpose by the discussion which has been evoked here on his amendment. As far as there is public opinion on this matter, we will have to rely on that public opinion to ensure that Governments from time to time exercise this prerogative in a reasonable way.

Finally, I want to say that I agree completely with those who maintain that the primary purpose of all punishment should be rehabilitation and that, where a person has fully rehabilitated himself and is ready again to take his place in society as a useful citizen without any danger to that society, it is nothing more than inhuman cruelty to keep him in prison.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 8; Níl, 24.

  • Carton, Victor.
  • Cole, John C.
  • Desmond, Cornelius.
  • Fitzgerald, John.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
  • McDonald, Charles.
  • Quigley, Joseph.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.

Níl

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Brennan, John J.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Costelloe, John.
  • Donegan, Bartholomew.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Thomas P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • McGlinchey, Bernard.
  • Mooney, Joseph M.
  • Nash, John Joseph.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Ó Ciosáin, Éamon.
  • Ó Donnabháin, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Ó Siochfhradha, Pádraig.
  • Ross, J.N.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, Patrick W.
  • Ryan, William.
  • Yeats, Michael.
Tellers:— Tá: Senators Carton and Fitzpatrick; Níl: Senators Farrell and Ó Donnabháin.
Amendment declared lost.
Sections 2 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill".

This section I presume takes away the regulation that jurors in a murder case are not allowed to separate during the trial. Apparently we now are retaining it only for capital murder. I wonder would it not still be retained in a murder of a more serious nature.

This is only administrative really. The judge need not lock them up. He does not have to, but he may if he wishes.

In that case I agree.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 8 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report Stage ordered for next sitting day.
The Seanad adjourned at 11.50 p.m.sine die.
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