I move amendment No. 1:
To delete line 17 and substitute "(b) by the deletion in subsection (5) of ‘and rateable valuations"'.
We have already succeeded so effectively in debating this Committee Stage amendment on Second Stage that there is not really very much left for me to say now except to express the hope that the Minister in the light of the period of reflection which he has had the benefit of will review his position in this matter. I have thought over and read his arguments since the debate the last time and I find them most unconvincing. The nearest thing to an effective argument is the suggestion in relation to the practice of eliminating any requirement that there would be a relationship between representation and population or electorate. This practice was adopted in 1941 in respect of areas outside Dublin. While the Minister does not suggest that this is necessarily desirable and while in relation to some consolidation or amending measure in the future he might move away from it, he wants in the meantime to impose uniformity in this matter by eliminating in relation to Dublin the requirement which does not exist in relation to the rest of the country.
This seems to be the only argument put forward which carries any weight whatever. I find this unconvincing. I see no reason suddenly now, apparently not long before the whole matter will be reviewed, which I gather from what the Minister said, to effect this change which eliminates a safeguard and protection, not provided in this instance by the Constitution, as regards the democratic principles in local elections, and to eliminate it for the sake of what the Minister himself indicates is a temporary uniformity of no particular merit in that he does not propose to exercise, if I understand him correctly, the right, to gerrymander, which this amendment would give him. I consider the amendment in the law, which he proposes, is going far beyond the needs of the situation as he accurately describes it, and is objectionable and undesirable. I hope the Minister will be persuaded by what we have said to review his position in this matter.
The democratic principle of representation in relation to population is an important one. It was written by the Party at present in office into our Constitution in firm and specific terms and like many things in that Constitution it has stood the test of time well and the test of the adjudication of our courts. When, as I mentioned last day, the politicians of more than one Party sought to subvert this principle in 1961 by moving away from it and giving additional representation to certain parts of the country on the grounds it had nothing to do with democracy, the Constitution stood firm when tested in our courts and that attempt, which was not simply that of one particular political Party, but people from a number of Parties, was nipped in the bud.
We have not got any such safeguard here. If the Minister chooses to exercise his powers in an arbitrary manner in relation to the division of Dublin, and, of course, the size of Dublin offers far more scope for that than any of the other local electoral areas which the 1941 Act also freed from any requirement in regard to population, if the Minister chooses to gerrymander Dublin in that way he would be free to do so under this measure. While he might be criticised for it on broader grounds it could not be held he was acting illegally. We have had enough experience in other parts of this country of this process not to open the way to it here. At a time when in Northern Ireland the whole system of local elections is being reformed or where there are proposals to reform it, to eliminate the abuses which have been such a blot on the local electoral arrangements in that part of the country, for us to remove a safeguard and to open up the way for this or some future Government to gerrymander any Dublin electoral areas is something which we should not do.
No suggestion has been made that this is the only way you can amend the Bill to achieve the aim the Minister desires. It is a gratuitous and totally unnecessary addition to the amendment that is required, the amendment to eliminate the requirements having regard to rateable valuation. The amendment I put down would confine the change in the law to that which the Minister in his speech, and in the explanatory memorandum, says is what he intends to achieve. The amendment in the law in the form he has it is one which, quite necessarily, extends far beyond what is necessary to achieve his own objective, as stated, and what is desirable in the interests of the operation of democracy in this country at local electoral level.
I have not cast at any stage in my remarks, as the Minister seemed to suggest, any reflection on the Government or suggested that they or the Minister are particularly likely to abuse the power given to them here but I have suggested that all politicians and all political Parties are tempted, when they are entitled to act in such a manner within the law, so to act as to secure the advantage of their particular political interest. It is the proper duty of the Legislature to guard against that. It is our duty as legislators to protect ourselves against ourselves because we know the pressures we can be under in these matters.
We have the recent example of the extent to which many people in both Houses of the Oireachtas are uncommitted to the democratic principle and were prepared in 1961 to re-arrange the electoral system of this country contrary to the Constitution to favour some areas against other areas not in the interest of a particular political Party but in the interest of a general regional interest. Knowing that that is something which is liable to be done, knowing that an attempt was made to do it for which more than one Party were responsible it would be most unwise of us to give such power which could be a temptation to this or any future Government.
Senator Sheehy Skeffington put it to the Minister that while he himself might be entirely honourable in this matter that some future Minister for Local Government—and he instanced the remote possibility of myself—might be tempted to gerrymander. While I can offer the House an assurance on my own behalf I cannot do so on behalf of every future Minister for Local Government of any Party.
The Minister attempted to suggest that, in fact, it was impossible to gerrymander Dublin and that no Party had the information necessary for this purpose. I simply do not accept this. He knows as well as I do, and a good deal better with much longer experience in this field than I have, that in every election in this country the political Parties in watching the scrutiny of the votes before counting as they are emptied from each box, make a note of the number of votes which each Party secures in that area.