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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Aug 1973

Vol. 75 No. 9

Finance Bill, 1973 ( Certified Money Bill ) : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The person who invests money or raises a loan, say, in the region of £400, will find that the interest on this is deducted from his income tax and he then qualifies for childrens' allowance. To me this makes this type of person a speculator in his own right. All of this encourages needless overspending and going into debt. It is a most unsatisfactory and unhealthy economic situation.

Young workers, many of whom are earning good wages, should be given an incentive to save, to invest, rather than to spend or to borrow. Nowhere can I see any such incentive in this Bill. Every effort should be made to impress on people the importance of saving both in the interest of the individual and of the nation as a whole.

Regarding the matter of encouraging young people to save it would be well to look into the matter of saving for house purchase. Where are the real incentives to this end? In this context it might well be asked whether our building societies are now performing the work they were instituted for. All building societies at their foundation had the characteristics of a co-operative effort. There was idealism in them and they set about in a practical way to make funds available, through the saving efforts of the participants, to young homemakers.

It seems to me that these societies, in growing, become more like financial concerns. They seem to be more interested in dividends to shareholders than in providing tolerable financial facilities and incentives for the young home builder. Any effort to set up—even in the smallest way— co-operatives for house building should be encouraged in every way by the State. Experts should be asked to apply themselves to the problem of rejuvenating societies which have grown into mere banking companies or, saving this, financial experts should apply themselves to seek out ways and means of setting up funds which would endeavour to do in the 1970s what the building societies did in the earlier decades of this century.

The Government have said they will provide something in the region of 25,000 houses in this year. I would strongly recommend to the Minister that he take careful note of the suggestion to remove the tax from office blocks provided the owner guarantees to allow 25 per cent of the area to be used as living accommodation for those in need of homes. This would be a much better social and financial investment than imposing a 15 per cent stamp duty on those buildings.

Another alternative to making enough houses available annually is the rising cost of building components. The VAT applies to all building components and the Government should seriously examine the possibility of exempting building components from this tax. Houses for people are such dire social necessities that everything which would possibly make the building of them in sufficient numbers a reality should be done. Would not the removal of VAT from building components help towards the proposed 25,000 houses this year? I sincerely think it would.

I would seriously ask the Minister to try to get the building societies functioning more efficiently. I said I believe there is this tendency for them to become more of a banking concern than a building society.

In his budget speech the Minister promised to look into money matters. Often when the one financial knotty problem which counts is highlighted he merely puts the solution on the long finger by saying that further study should be made or a White Paper should be issued. Too many promises cost more and more money but the knotty problem is: where will the finance come from? The job for any Minister for Finance is to see where growth is needed, where social aids are required, to apply the remedy to cure the situation and, at the same time, tell the people where he is getting the money from and show them that this money is really available.

On reading the Finance Bill, my feeling is that on the matter of financing, only a fraction of the pre-election promises of the Coalition Government seem to be put into effect. There have been too many promises about how this money is going to be raised. The Minister mentioned that he hoped to introduce soon a new unified structure of personal income tax with graduated rates which will take the place of the present dual structure of income tax and surtax. Also we had the pre-election commitment to abolish estate duty in its entirety. This has not been done. We have now been given more promises. There is the promise of a White Paper. The overall feeling of many people who look at the record of the present Government and this finance policy, in particular, is that there were too many pre- and post-election promises, pre-election promises about what they were going to do and post-election promises to bring in studies and White Papers which would show us how they propose to regulate spending and taxes. I believe that we now suffer from a pie-in-the-sky Government.

All these promises were made and we have had very little in this particular Finance Bill or, indeed, in the budget. It cannot be denied that there is positive proof that this Finance Bill and the budget are incapable of doing anything. I see nothing in the Finance Bill to regulate inflation. It deflates the buying power of the few pounds in the purses of the sick and the aged, the orphan and the widow. I see no evidence in the Finance Bill of the Just Society or of the truly social conscience.

There are bound to be financial implications in the coming years resulting from our entry into the EEC. Most people labour under the illusion that entry into the EEC has put money into the Irish worker's pocket. This is not the case. This cannot be done without more hard work. The incentives are there since we joined the EEC but we must work towards this end of increasing our incomes irrespective of what we work at. I believe that many adjustments will have to be made in our financing methods on our entry into the EEC. The present Bill should have done something about this. It should have recognised the evolving situation resulting from EEC membership. It has failed to do this. I should imagine that from now on amalgamations, take-overs and mergers will become part of our structure to gear ourselves towards the level of efficiency demanded in EEC membership. The Minister should explain fully the implications of the provisions made in section 38 of the Bill for carrying forward losses for tax purposes. I should like his assurance that these provisions will not interfere with the developments and changes and, indeed, interactions in industries consequent on entry into the EEC which are necessary if we are to succeed in the EEC.

There could be abuses in this section as carrying forward of losses for taxation could lead to what is known as loss-buying transactions. When the Minister legislates to stop this particular practice, we would like to be properly assured that the Minister does not also hinder desirable developments such as workers in a loss-operated firm taking over with a stake in the company, going ahead with the successful rejuvenating and running of that little company. We must always be careful in legislation concerned with ridding abuses that we do not also legislate to dampen much needed ingenuity and enthusiasm.

In conclusion, I should like to say I have directed my thoughts on the Bill towards this gigantic problem of inflation. I feel the Minister and the Government are failing miserably in curbing it. No meaningful effort has been made to remedy the situation. It seems to be getting out of control, particularly in recent months. The Government's economic policy is geared towards further inflation. Considering that it will take another 12 months, unless in the meantime we have another budget imposed on us in the autumn, I shudder to think of what the position will then be. The Government have failed completely to curb inflation. That is the gigantic problem that confronts the country at the present time.

I just want to make some observations on this Finance Bill. The measure is designed to implement the various provisions of the budget. Children's allowances are a great benefit and social amenity. This very necessary piece of legislation was introduced some years ago. Now when we are able to avail of increased savings due to the removal of the subsidies on agricultural exports, it is grossly unfair of the Government to define what category parents would be in in relation to the payment of children's allowances. For various reasons many people do not marry. Perhaps, they enter the religious life. They may take care of the aged where there are no schemes to take care of them, obeying in doing so the fourth commandment. The family is the mainstay of the nation and the Government should recognise that fact especially when there are so many pressures to limit the size of families. People with families should be paid decent allowances. There should be no quibble in regard to the income bracket within which these people fall. There are other ways of recouping the money if the Government feel they are too wealthy.

A married couple have to find the money to provide a home. They have to buy washing machines, a fridge, furniture and all the other household effects. They help to keep the ESB going. They support the shopkeepers, the supermarkets and clothing manufacturers. In short, the family are the lifeblood of the nation. In future legislation we should ensure a more liberal approach to help the family.

The Coalition Government promised to abolish death duties. It was one of their 14 points issued before the general election. Very often at election time far-reaching promises are made but when a document such as the 14 points is issued it is only natural that the people expect it to be honoured in full. Perhaps, it is easier to make these promises in Opposition than in Government. I will admit that. The old adage: "When the devil is sick a saint is he; when the devil is well the devil a saint is he" could apply to those in Government as well. I do not think the Coalition Government will be able to escape implementing the clear-cut promises they gave of removing death duty on farms.

Reference was made to payments to universities. I am not too clear what this means since we have little experience of universities in our part of the country. I wish that somebody in the near future will take note of the fact that we in the north-west have no university facilities. Some years ago the people of Limerick succeeded in getting the equivalent of an university. There are universities in Dublin, Cork and Galway. I do not begrudge these cities their universities but Cavan, Sligo and Donegal should not be left without university facilities.

The Senator appreciates that he is going wide of the Finance Bill. He should make no more than a passing reference to the point he is making.

I am sorry. University facilities should be made available to the north-west and thus obviate the necessity for the people there to travel in order to secure higher education. We pay for this through taxation.

A Senator suggested that one-fifth of the community lived in poverty. The impression he gave was that we were a nation of paupers. His statement is grossly exaggerated. I do not think that there are any Irish people living below subsistence level. If there are, the public representatives in the areas concerned have neglected their responsibilities. Our county council—and I am sure others—have introduced measures to give reliefs of various kinds, including rates. There will always be a difference in the rates of income. Nobody can expect to be equal so far as income is concerned. Even if incomes were equal, the situation would not last a day or a week at most. Some people would spend what they had. We must encourage people to be thrifty and provide for the rainy day. We on this side of the House increased social welfare services as the economy improved.

It is a historical fact that we introduced the various social service Acts which have given increases to old age pensioners, widows and orphans. We introduced the children's allowances scheme and various other schemes which all must agree are designed to help the less fortunate sections of our community. That has been the motto of the last Government and should also be the motto of the present Government—to ensure that those who are reasonably well off will make a contribution through taxation or otherwise to help those who are below subsistence standard, or on the fringe.

Our policy has also been to encourage those people to get off their knees and try to provide employment for them and provide colleges where they can learn the skills and techniques necessary to equip them to take their place in society and not be a burden on the State.

Despite that, there will always be among us those who are ill no matter how much we increase the health services and no matter how efficient our medical profession is. It is our duty as a Government and a nation to lean backwards to help people who are sick, disabled, mentally handicapped and in any way afflicted. That should be the basis of our social philosophy and we on this side of the House have lived up to it to the best of our ability and it will eventually be the desire of the present Government to do likewise. I should like to see more evidence of that intention in the budget and for that reason I have made that short observation regarding children's allowances.

I should like to dwell for a short time on the question of prices. People may have been misled during election period and for some time before by the parties forming the present Government. In their efforts to secure office one can hardly blame them for trying to entice the votes of the electorate, but once they are elected they have a duty to redeem the promises they made. Many people have been led to believe there is an easy solution to this matter of prices, and the campaign was championed from the other side before the dissolution of the Dáil during the past six months. We were in Government then and we knew it is not easy to control prices.

I admit the present Government have a difficult assignment to live up to their promises in this respect. We are all aware that many of the items used now in modern homes, such as oil, coal, tea and rubber, are not produced in this country and it is necessary in modern society to import these products in order to maintain a reasonable standard of living in comparison with other countries. Youth are demanding these facilities and it is up to us to see they get them. If you go abroad to purchase oil, rubber, tea, cocoa, or fruit you will not come back empty-handed because you have a certain standard to maintain. Many homes are fuelled by oil now, it is a necessary evil and I concede that over situations such as that no Government have ultimate control. Our prices will be determined by what we will be charged in the country where the goods are produced, we have no option but to buy and that will add a certain amount of inflation to the various commodities used in the modern home. Therefore, before an election the people should not have been led into the belief that there is some magic way whereby a Government could reduce prices by a stroke of the pen.

The removal of VAT from food is a gimmicky type of operation. Perhaps it was done in haste, or in the belief that because it pertained to food those who are rearing large families and those living in poor conditions would look upon it as a big concession. It is a bad decision and long before the date set for its implementation, 3rd September, food prices will have rocketed. As a previous speaker has stated, prices have increased three times since 1972. What benefit is it to the ordinary family to remove VAT, while prices have been increasing in such a manner? There are difficulties involved and extra work for the small shopkeeper and this operation will have an affect on the prices of other commodities which are essential to modern living.

One would think we were in the Stone Age and that the only thing needed in modern Ireland was plenty of food. A person can only eat one dinner per day and having two dinners per day does not contribute to longevity or help in any way. This operation will inflate the prices of other essential commodities. Television and radio, fridges, washing machines and other modern amenities which are to be seen in most homes—on instalment systems, perhaps—are taken for granted. These are all increasing in price and this will eat up any small saving that might be made under VAT. Most homes are heated by some type of oil burning system or by coal. These commodities have also increased in price so where will the saving come in for the family who have been told that by removing VAT they will be in a much better position? I respectfully suggest there has been no saving to the individual, there will be a great loss to the Exchequer and the whole operation will end up useless.

I should like to refer to the matter of income tax, a problem that did not exist, to a great extent, ten, 15 or 20 years ago in this country because there were not so many people then within the income tax bracket. At that time emigration was rampant and the housing situation was chaotic. Therefore, there was no great clamour among the working classes— because there were not many of them —to pay income tax. In recent years the situation has changed completely. We are proud of the fact that in many areas we have factories providing good employment, many of them based on agricultural produce and byproducts and they have been a great asset to the economy.

Under the income tax code those who are earning above a certain amount in those factories have to pay income tax. I do not blame any Government for collecting income tax. Few citizens object to paying provided they know it is a fair and equitable tax and that every citizen is paying his fair share. It is about the evasion of income tax that our people complain.

There is a case to be made in 1973 for reducing the tax on motor cars and petrol because, less than 20 years ago, a great effort was made by many people in this country to introduce a tax on bicycles. This pressure was put on the Fianna Fáil Government and, I believe, they wisely resisted it because at that time the bicycle was a mode of conveyance to work. The motor car today is in the same position. In most homes today a motor car is no luxury but an essential part of present day living. They may be used by young people to take them to dances or the seaside but these are recreations to which people are entitled when their week's work has ended. When a car is essential for taking people to their places of employment there should be some concession by way of income tax.

It is not the workers' fault that most of our industries were placed in Dublin city. We in Cavan, Sligo or Donegal should not be blamed because industries were placed where they are. Often the industrialist is rather "choosey" about the location of his industry and he likes to be near the ports. We know there is a greater concentration of industries of all kinds on the eastern side of our country than there is on the western side, not because any Government has a grudge against the West but because the industrialist likes to select a location suitable for the export of his finished products.

The result is that the workers have been attracted to the eastern side of the country because they follow the job opportunities. Many of them were single people who later got married and settled down on that side of the country with the result that Dublin city is bursting at the seams. It is expanding so rapidly that tremendous activity and building programmes are being carried out on the best land in Ireland whereas in the western areas, where the land is poor, no such activity exists.

If a concession such as the abolition of tax on motor cars were given it would eventually encourage people to settle in houses in the country. This would be a very desirable thing. In many places down the country there are plenty of national schools and secondary schools where all children can be given equal opportunities under our new secondary school scheme and where bus services are provided for them. If the Government could grant this concession—I admit it would mean a loss in revenue—it would help to curb the unnatural growth that is taking place around Dublin city where one-third of our present population live. I am not begrudging industries to the people of Dublin city. They are in a better geographical position and have a good port and all major roads from the country lead to it. However, anything that would help to encourage young married people to go to live in the fresh air of the country would be a benefit to the country and would compensate the Exchequer for any little income tax concessions that might be granted to them.

I should like to mention the question of providing grants and, in particular, extra grants for roads down the country. This is something that is essential to attracting industries to those areas. I cannot see how an industrialist would be prepared to set out for one of our remote western regions if he was not reasonably assured that there would be a decent highway provided for him to transport his finished products to the ports on the eastern side of the country.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think the Senator's remarks would be more appropriate to the Appropriation Bill.

I accept that but I was wondering if the Minister intends doing anything to improve the grants available for making roads. If the grants are not improved there will be less employment on our roads than we had last year because of the increased costs of road materials and, eventually, people will move to other areas where they can obtain employment. When people have devoted many years of their lives to road work it is unfair that they should be laid off at such short notice. Any trade unionist on the other side of the House—I am a trade unionist myself —would not like to see a worker deprived——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am afraid I shall have to insist that the Senator returns to the Finance Bill.

I should like to inquire if there is any provision made in this budget for money which is badly needed for the drainage of the River Erne. This is something that should be mentioned here because if there is no money available in this budget, there is at present a means whereby some money could be secured by making application to the EEC to have money provided for——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will have to address his remarks to the Finance Bill. Matters of administration are a subject matter for the Appropriation Bill debate which will come up later in the year.

I was making the point that it might be too late by the time the Appropriation Bill comes before us to make this application. The Taoiseach will understand that it would be right and proper to make it seeing that it would be a cross-Border effort and the drainage of the River Erne in that North-Western region would facilitate Donegal, Leitrim, Fermanagh, Cavan, Longford and Westmeath.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am fraid the Senator is continuing to be out of order.

I am sorry, I did not intend to but I felt it was vital, before the House adjourned, to make this point in view of the fact that earlier in this House we were told it would be necessary to submit to the EEC such applications.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think the Senator has made his point. Continue on the Finance Bill, please.

This Bill contains the various financial provisions that have been made.

That is the whole idea of the Finance Bill.

Is there any provision in the Finance Bill to assist Gorta in their very laudable work? None of our citizens would object to such assistance, be they as poor as Senator O'Higgins would lead us to believe, or in the upper income bracket. This organisation gives underdeveloped countries financial assistance and provide experts to ensure that the people in those countries understand how to use modern machines, techniques and facilities to produce food for themselves rather than having to depend on, if you like, a type of a hand out that once eaten is forgotten.

The method whereby this is given is a very laudable one and one which should be continued. That is the reason why I am interested to know if, in this Finance Bill, there is any provision to provide money for Gorta.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Dolan, continue on the Bill, please. The Senator is straying a bit again.

I am also interested to know if there are any provisions in this Finance Bill for improving the prospects of those people who, outside the efforts of the county council, are endeavouring to provide themselves with their own homes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will have to ask the Senator to resume his seat if he insists on speaking out of order. It is not in the context of the Finance Bill.

I am dealing with the provision of homes, something which relates to the Finance Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not related to taxation.

I should like to warn the Government that the increase in prices imposed by them, while it may not directly affect the price of timber, will lead to an increase in the price of houses. People will find ways and means of adding on VAT to commodities which will result in the price of homes going up. This will be a calamity.

The most desirable thing for any person intending to enter the holy state of matrimony is to build a home himself because self-ownership is what is important. It is much better to encourage people to buy the site themselves, to give them loans and grants and make them owners of their own home. That is a very laudable policy. It is one which should be followed.

Perhaps I may have been inclined to stray a little outside the rails so far as this debate is concerned, but I was unable to hear the intervention of the Leas-Chathaoirleach on one occasion. I did not know whether the Leas-Chathaoirleach was telling me thus far and no further or to continue on. I felt it was necessary that some of these things should be said.

Anything in a budget that encourages the youth of this country to save money is something which should be encouraged. I commend, very highly, the efforts being made by the National Savings Committee who visit national schools in an effort to encourage the youth to save. I should like to see that practice continued, and possibly extended to young people working in factories.

I do not think that our youth will turn to drink because they are getting extra wages, et cetera. Certainly this Government have made a fair effort to ensure that they will not do that because they have increased the traditional commodities out of the reach of most of them. At the same time it is true to say that people should be encouraged to save money. Young people working in industry will benefit by saving and it will also be of immense benefit to the nation. Saving will cultivate in them a very important rule of life. It should be impressed on them early in life how important it is for people to be financially independent.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 3rd August, 1973.
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