Vol. 77 No. 12
I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves of the following Regulations in draft:—
Local Elections (Postal Voting) Regulations, 1974
a copy of which Regulations in draft form was laid before Seanad Éireann on the 24th day of April, 1974.
It might be more convenient if items Nos. 2 and 3 on the Order Paper were discussed together.
It is a matter for the House to decide. Is it agreed to take Nos. 2 and 3 together?
Agreed.
I wonder if it would be convenient at this stage to find out if agreement could be secured as regards the time we finish at today?
The only sensible course is to see how the debate progresses. If we have order on all sides, including the Minister, I think we should be able to conclude at a reasonable time.
There is always order on this side. Assuming that, has the Leader of the Opposition any suggestion to make?
Within reason we should finish some time before midnight.
About five o'clock, say?
It has been agreed to take Nos. 2 and 3 together. No. 2 has been moved. The Minister.
These draft regulations are laid before the House in accordance with section 82 (5) of the Electoral Act, 1963, which provides that, where regulations under that section are proposed to be made, a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and that the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House. I propose to deal first with the postal voting regulations.
There has been a demand for the provision of extended postal voting facilities for many years. Representations seeking such facilities have been submitted from time to time in respect of such groups as commercial travellers, sailors, fishermen, invalids, persons who are abroad on business at election time, airline staffs, hospital patients, persons who have changed their address, persons who are away on holidays at the time an election is held, and old people and others who are unable to leave their homes because of illness or incapacity.
In response to the representations, the extension of postal voting facilities, which are at present confined to members of the Garda Síochána and of the Defence Forces, was considered on a number of occasions by my predecessors as Minister for Local Government and by former Governments. It was also considered in 1960-61 by the Joint Committee on the Electoral Law. However on each occasion the view was taken that the risk of abuse would be too great. Administrative difficulties arising from the large numbers of electors likely to be involved were also taken into account.
The risk of abuse and the administrative difficulties inherent in the operation of a system of postal voting for categories of electors other than members of the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces must be balanced against the fact that the lack of such a system has the effect of preventing some electors from exercising their right to vote. In my view, the case for extending postal voting facilities is a very strong one and outweighs the risk of abuse and the administrative difficulties. Accordingly I propose to make regulations, subject to the approval of each House of the Oireachtas, under which such facilities would be available at local elections commencing with the local elections next June.
The explanatory memorandum which has been circulated explains the provisions of the proposed regulations. Basically what is proposed is that a right to apply to vote by post at local elections should be granted to every elector who is unable, or is likely to be unable, to vote in person at his polling station by reason of the circumstances of his occupation, service or employment, absence from the address where he is registered, illness or physical disability or his employment by a returning officer in connection with an election. The application procedure has been designed to facilitate electors as far as possible while at the same time maintaining safeguards against abuse.
The operation of the system in relation to the forthcoming local elections will be kept under review with a view to establishing whether any changes may be necessary or desirable at future elections. After the local elections I propose to introduce legislation to provide similar postal voting facilities at Dáil and Presidential elections and at referenda.
The approval of the House is also sought to the draft of the Local Elections (Amendment) Regulations, 1974. An Explanatory memorandum on these draft regulations has also been circulated and I do not therefore think it necessary to detain the House by elaborating on the details. The draft regulations propose to amend the Local Elections Regulations, 1965, by making the changes required as a result of the reduction of the minimum voting age from 21 to 18 years; by increasing the safeguards to the secrecy of the ballot at local elections arising from the Supreme Court ruling in 1971 and by making some minor technical and procedural changes arising from experience at the local elections held in 1967.
We have been very critical of the Minister for Local Government during the past 48 hours, and some weeks ago. In this case we have no objection to the proposed regulations. The only cautionary word or words I should like to make are that, in order to prevent chaos from the administration point of view, it is very important that the returning officers should be appraised fully and be properly staffed to cope with the problem. There will be a very rushed situation, to put is mildly, initiating completely new procedures for returning officers under paragraph 7 of the regulations:
The returning officer shall, not later than the twenty-eighth day before the polling day, arrange for the provision of application forms at such times and places as are specified in the notice under article 6 of these Regulations and an application form shall be supplied free of charge to any person applying therefor.
That procedure starts 28 days before polling day. The application forms have then to be filled up by the public, go back to the returning officer and then he issues ballot papers. The people who receive these ballot papers cannot vote in person at their particular polling station.
All this will place a very severe administrative strain, inaugurating a new system in a relatively short time. Care should be taken to avoid any administrative chaos between the 28 days before polling day and polling day, so that the polling is carried on —both in polling stations and by post —in a manner that does not give rise to any colour of abuse. I am certain there will not be any abuse, but what I am afraid of is the chaos that might result from a rushed administrative procedure and the impression might get abroad that abuses have taken place.
This is purely an administration matter and I am certain that the proper administration will be established to deal with it. Where returning officers are bringing in new procedure, they will have to be properly staffed. There is no point in issuing a regulation such as this and telling the returning officers to do what is incorporated in these regulations unless there is proper staffing to ensure that not alone will the regulations be implemented, not alone is postal voting granted on the basis and on the criteria proposed in paragraph 4, but that the actual implementation will be above suspicion.
I should also like to welcome the two motions, particularly that in relation to postal voting. Taking the Local Elections (Amendment) Regulations first, there is only one point I should like to raise. As I understand it, the only essential change made in paragraph 10 is that whereas up to now, schools and premises of that kind could be used for taking the poll, now they are to be used also, where required, for counting the votes. That is a definite change and I am a bit dubious about it. I hope that local returning officers will do their utmost to avoid any unnecessary interference with the work of schools. Polling takes one complete day, and perhaps longer if there are problems over rearranging accommodation. Counting the votes in a local election is quite a long drawn out process and I should be very much afraid that some school activities might be interfered with, and I hope that this will be reduced to a minimum.
I am interested also in another question. I appreciate that this is not a change in the regulations but is an already existing provision. The regulations provide that the poll can be taken now, the votes can be counted in any school receiving a grant out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas and also in any premises the expense of maintaining which is payable out of any rates. This would cover a very wide field and I accept that the Minister is not making a change here: it has always been the position. It covers a very wide field, including hospitals and so forth. I should be interested to know if the Minister can give me any idea as to what type of premises are envisaged or have been used in the past. It seems a rather wide scope.
To come to a more important regulation, that of postal voting, I think every reasonable effort has been made to avoid possible abuses. However I would urge on the Minister the point that under these new regulations, from now on it will be essential more than ever that very great care should be taken with regard to the preparation of the register. I take it that what the Minister has in mind essentially is that those who are genuinely living in this country, but who will be absent, either in Ireland or abroad, on election day, should be able to vote. I presume that he does not intend to include those who have emigrated.
The address of anybody abroad must be sent to somebody in this country.
The intention is quite clear, that nobody who is living abroad will be entitled to vote. The essential thing is to ensure that no such people are included in the register.
It will have to be certified that they, themselves, applied for the vote.
There is no problem about that. Take the case of, say, a man who is working in Birmingham. His family inadvertently, or advertently, entered his name on the form for inclusion on the register. Then he is on the register. Next he has to apply by letter for his postal vote. He must have this completed by a member of the Garda Síochána, or a clergyman, or an official of the local authority. He must return to Ireland on holiday or in some other temporary capacity to interview these people. I understand that the people concerned will have the schedule of these rules and have no power to say that they will not accept the proposition because they know he is living abroad. He is on the register. In his application to vote he states that because he is working abroad he is unable to vote in the coming election. As I understand it, they must complete the certificate and the returning officer must accept this, in the absence of other evidence, and give him his vote.
The precaution that must be taken here is to make sure that those people are entered in the register. I would therefore urge on the Minister that from now on it will be more important than ever to check the register to make certain that only those who are included on the register are genuinely living in this country, and to weed out as far as possible those who are working abroad, even though they may pay occasional visits home. That is the essential precaution that the Minister should take. Otherwise we are in complete agreement with the general principle.
I should like to refer to paragraph 9:
As soon as practicable after the adjournment of an election for the purpose of taking a poll, the returning officer shall prepare in respect of each local electoral area a list (in these Regulations referred to as the supplementary postal voters list) in such form as may be directed by the Minister, containing the number (including polling district letter) and name (in each case as stated in the register) of each person from whom a valid application has been received by him and the address to which each such person's ballot paper is to be sent.
As the names will already be on a register, it is not in the best interests of secrecy that a list of the postal voters should be supplied to candidates.
There would have to be, otherwise there would be chaos. Nobody would know the position.
I hope the Minister might see some merit in what I have said.
All these matters will be considered.
If the people living in the country are separately assessed presumably it will be only people who are sick who will be involved. It is not protecting secrecy of voting.
I, too, welcome this motion. I cannot agree with Senator Lenihan that there will not be any abuse. I can see that there can be abuse. It is something that the Minister and his Department will have to look into. First of all, according to the qualifications of those who may apply for a ballot paper for a postal vote, it looks as if anybody and everybody will qualify under the regulations that are laid down here. In the next election on 18th June that might not happen because it is new, but in future elections when people find out about this I believe a lot of people will not bother their heads to go to the polls to vote. They will look for a postal vote. You might ask what is the difference.
When it comes to the actual voting there can be abuse. To get the postal vote you have to fill in an application form and make a declaration before somebody of importance such as a member of the Garda Síochána or a clergyman. That part is all right, but when the ballot paper comes back to the house, who votes on the ballot paper then? I have known of postal votes for other purposes and I know that candidates travel around after the postman. As soon as the postman leaves in the ballot papers the ballot papers are collected again. I should not like to see something like that happen in this case.
If people are in hospital where will the ballot paper be sent—is it to the hospital or their own homes? If it goes to their own homes, who has the right to see that it is the person concerned who actually votes? I am sure that between the time a person applies for this ballot paper and the day of the poll, a number of people in hospital will have passed away. Who will then use these ballot papers? I have not seen provisions for problems of that kind made in the regulations. I should like the Minister to take this into account because I am convinced that people living in the city do not know as much about postal voting as we do. We have seen postal voting in some other organisations and we have seen the abuse that has occurred. I feel that as well as making a declaration when they are applying for the ballot paper people should have to make some sort of a declaration on the day the vote is cast.
Though I agree with the fears expressed by Senator W. Ryan in relation to this it is, by and large, a new procedure. I honestly think it is worth the risks that Senator Ryan has pointed out and that may have to be taken. I am sure the Minister and the returning officers will make every effort to ensure that the abuses Senator Ryan fears will not take place. Some of them will. There is no doubt about that, but even in our present system we have abuses. We are all aware of that. On how many occasions have people gone to the polling booth to vote to find that somebody had got there five minutes or five hours earlier and had taken away their vote? There is an element of risk in it.
A wide spectrum of people such as long-distance lorry drivers, commercial travellers and a number of people who are ill, perhaps in their own homes and not in hospitals, should have the right to vote. After all, would it not be much better if these people could vote in a civilised way rather than to see occurring some of the things which have taken place in the past when you had queues of cars lined up outside institutions whipping people down to polling booths and convincing them as to who they should vote for? If you get into this car or that car you are branded straightaway. If we can eliminate some of that kind of thing, even though there is a certain amount of risk involved, it is worth it and it will ensure that an effort is being made to give people who, perhaps, for one reason or another could not utilise the franchise, the right to vote. If it does not work as well as we expect in the local elections then we can have another look at it. I agree with Senator Lenihan when he says this is certainly well worth the risk, and the Minister should be complimented for introducing it.
I want to express agreement with the motion. It is a step in the right direction. Our aim ought to be to ensure that every citizen over 18 years is entitled to vote and we should bend over backwards to provide facilities whereby he will be able to exercise the franchise. It is the most democratic way in any institution of getting the opinion of the people by giving them this right. It is a fundamental right that all citizens equally should enjoy. It is well known that because of working commitments and various other duties many people in the past have been absent from their regular polling booths and they were unable to exercise the franchise.
The Minister has outlined many of the people who would be affected in that way. Not alone should these facilities be extended to those who are sick but any citizen, irrespective of where he or she lives within the limits of this State, should have this facility available whereby they could exercise their vote on polling day. Now that the registers have been compiled, a fair number of people may have overlooked the fact and were unaware that these facilities were to be introduced. Because of that they may have been careless in scrutinising the local registers to see if their names were on them.
Some people, because of lack of employment in rural areas, came to the city and returned at the weekends. It could easily happen that their names may not be on their local register because usually the voting in all elections takes place on a Tuesday or a Wednesday and if they knew they would not be able to get there within the voting hour limits their names may not be on the register. This could cut both ways and I am not speaking on a political issue. Facilities should be included, if they are not already included, and I am sure abuses could be guarded against, to give those people a chance although their names may not now be on the register. There is time to prepare a list of postal voters and some opportunity should be given to these people so that they could apply to have their names included on this voters' list.
I agree with Senators who have already raised the possibility of abuses. I suppose that is to be expected because it has happened in many organisations where postal votes were used. At the same time I am sure the Minister and the local returning officers will be capable of devising some means whereby even though there may be some abuses at least they will be kept to a minimum and we will be giving these people the right to vote. In doing that we will be giving a good service to the nation and to the electorate.
I also welcome this motion introducing these regulations because over the years we know that many people either through employment, commitments or illness had not the opportunity to give expression on election day through the ballot box. I should like to draw the Minister's attention to one area in which careful scrutiny should be maintained. That is in respect of long-stay institutions and areas where the particular individuals are incapable of making application themselves. It is the fundamental regulation in accordance with this that the person himself or herself must make application. What I should not like to see is some activist making application en masse in the names of substantial groups of people and then, one way or another getting those ballot papers voted on.
This is a very desirable development. It has areas of danger, and I hope that these areas of danger will be fully supervised to ensure that this desirable project will be continued and that the abuses—and there will be certain areas of abuse—will not be such as to again terminate this very valuable right which every voter should have.
I, too, would welcome this motion because when I was speaking on another motion previously I asked that something be done positively and immediately about this matter. I am thankful that the Minister paid heed to what I had to say and has brought this to its final conclusion today.
However I think Senator Ryan made a point that we must be aware of. I, too, am aware that in other associations takeovers can be made. The postal vote system is probably technically a little different system, as this was proposed to be. Senator Fitzgerald brought the point home about the abuses that can happen on an election day particularly regarding votes of invalids and of sick people.
I saw a situation in Dublin some years ago in a by-election in the Dublin South-West area. Labour had two candidates, Mr. Merrigan and Mrs. Dunne. I saw on several occasions during that day where Mr. Merrigan's supporters had voted for Mrs. Dunne, and later in the day I saw that Mrs. Dunne's supporters had voted for people with cards—some system I did not understand. I saw several rows during the day between the supporters of Mr. Merrigan and Mrs. Dunne. I was amazed and bewildered that such a thing could happen. I am delighted that Senator Fitzgerald made the point that abuses can take place. In all my life I have never seen such carry-on as I saw on that day. It was only on the part of the Labour Party. I do not know which side Senator Fitzgerald was on at that time. I know which side he is on now, but it was only among the Labour Party.
There are a lot of people who at the age of 18 or 19 in the last two or three months have got employment in the Civil Service. There are girls who have taken up positions in hospitals throughout the country and many others who have taken up positions elsewhere. Are these people now entitled to make an application for a postal vote? I should hope they can and I hope the Minister will clarify that point for me.
I welcome the motion. I was glad that the Minister responded to my claim here and that he immediately got down to business to bring this regulation in in order to adopt a suggestion to him from this part of the House. If the Department are careful in their carrying out of this motion, this should work. If the Labour Party, as I have instanced before, behave themselves in forthcoming elections we will probably have a very constructive use of this new system.
I should like to join with other Senators in welcoming the extension of these regulations to the categories that are now included. I will not join with Senator Killilea in claiming credit for the introduction of the legislation. There is one point that the Minister made mention of that I should like to talk about. He stated that it was not the intention to send ballot papers abroad. I should like to be reassured that he does not intend to preclude, by what he said, the sending of ballot papers to members of the Defence Forces who are serving abroad. I should be glad if the Minister would clarify that for me. There are Senators who are afraid of abuses which might take place in the system of postal voting. As one who availed of the postal vote myself for many years during service in the Defence Forces, I think it is a very satisfactory system. I am quite certain that any abuses that there may be will come to the surface during the forthcoming local elections and can be taken care of at a later date.
I should like to joint with the other speakers in expressing a welcome for these regulations. It is something that is long overdue; it should have been introduced years ago. I did not realise until today how naive Senator Lenihan is. He must come from a very quiet and respectable constituency if he believes that these regulations are not subject to abuse.
I could never accuse Senator Lenihan of being naive.
You learn something every day. The regulations could mean quite a number of abuses. I accept that this is something new. This is a case of trial and error and from the experiences of the forthcoming local elections the Minister may consider it necessary to have a further look at the matter.
There are a few points that I want to raise. On page 3, paragraph 4(3), it is stated:
If the polls at the election of members of two different local authorities are to be held together, an application to vote by post made by a person entitled to vote at both polls shall be treated as an application by the person to vote by post at both elections.
With urban councils, in particular, candidates and county council elections in the one day there is a situation where there are two different returning officers. The secretary of the county council is the returning officer for the county council.
The town clerk is only assistant to the actual returning officer, who is the county secretary.
The county secretary is the returning officer. In my own county the county secretary is based in the town of Lifford. If a person in Letterkenny applies to the town clerk for a postal vote, will he automatically issue a postal vote for the county council?
They all go to the county council.
They all go direct. That is fair enough. Another point— and I think it was the one to which Senator Hanafin was referring—concerns the list. There would be a list of postal voters and obviously that must be taken from the list on the register; otherwise it would create problems. Is there any way in which a person who applies for a postal vote could arrive at the polling station on the day of the election and get another vote?
I shall explain that another time. This is taken care of.
When the application for the vote is certified, the vote itself is not certified?
It is in the interests of secrecy that a receipt of the acceptance of the ballot paper is certified, that the person to whom it is addressed has received it.
But the signature is not. And there is no proof of the signature, because here is where I feel that the abuse can be created. Senator Sanfey mentioned that in the Army it worked satisfactorily over the years, and this is true. But now we will have old people, sick people, invalids, getting a postal vote. Is there anything to stop the collection of these votes on the morning after they are issued by any particular individual, by any particular organisation?
No. They will sign a receipt that they have got the postal vote, that they are the persons to whom the postal vote is addressed, and there are severe penalties for dealing with it in any way except in the way set out in the regulations. Therefore no more than in the Army or in the Garda, there are no other ways.
It is understandable that this would not be abused in the Army or in the Garda. What I mean is those people who are not old; they know what they are doing and they are not going to surrender their vote. But in the case of invalids and old people it could be abused. From my own point of view there is a postal vote in different organisations. There happens to be one in my organisation as well on a certain election, which led to the tapping of my telephone and a subsequent court case. There is one objection I have to the copy of the application. Why should clergymen be brought into everything? This is to be certified by a member of the Garda, a clergyman or an officer of the local authority. Before I saw this particular page and before I realised that it was there, I was picturing in my own mind all the abuses that could be created. I remember a clergyman on one occasion —he is dead—when we were canvassing for a particular party, placing his stole on the shoulders of the people who had promised to vote for that particular candidate and making them promise that they would do as he asked. He was a fanatical politician.
Fianna Fáil, I suppose.
As a matter of fact, he was not, but I was not going to say that unless I was asked. Afterwards I can give Senator Sanfey his name and he can check it out, and he will find that what I am saying is true. It was in a by-election in 1948. The point I am making is that there are many priests who are fanatically political on all sides and who would be convinced, who could convince themselves that by signing their names on this docket, they would be doing a service to their own political party and possibly to the nation. It is very easy to convince people at times of this, although I know that if a clergyman or anybody else was caught doing this it would be considered a very serious offence. But naturally it would be very hard to catch them because, if any of us went around and got 20 or 30 such votes and got someone to sign them, it naturally would be kept very secret and it would not become public knowledge. I do feel that a member of the Garda and an officer of the local authority would suffice. I myself have about five or six cousins clergymen in Donegal and I must have a talk with them when I go back to see what their feelings in this matter would be.
The last point I want to refer to— and it was touched on by Senator Yeats—is the register. I must say I was looking at the register the other day and I saw a very prominent Fine Gael supporter whose name is under Letterkenny on the register. I never thought of these regulations. He is abroad and has been abroad for some years. He is married away from the town altogether. I wondered what he was doing on the register. He will have a postal vote now. Now I am not going to make a charge that the Fine Gael Party or anybody else had tipped off their people to get them on the register because it would be unfair to base an argument on one isolated case, but I am going back to have another look at the register to see how many of these people may be on, and perhaps I will get an opportunity of expressing my views on it. This may be a coincidence, but just take it that on the next occasion— and this affects all political parties, not just one—particularly on the northwestern seaboard, where there has been emigration and there is still emigration, there will be applications made to have people on the registers. I know a politician who two years ago toured the Irish clubs in England getting the names of people to have them put on the register. This is all right if the revision court is strict, and if there is a very careful examination made and a very careful study made of it. But in rural Ireland again there are times when all political parties neglect this and people could be slipped on the register who should not be on it. I presume that as regards the regulations we are discussing today, when the Minister sees how they work for the local elections, he will propose them for the general election. There is the possibility that a lot of names could be slipped through the register in this manner and it is something that should be watched. I must say that I think the Minister deserves congratulations for introducing these regulations, because we have always received complaints over the years from people who have been denied the use of their vote. While I feel there will be mistakes made we will be in a position to learn from those mistakes.
Like the other Senators I, too, welcome the regulations subject, of course, to reservations and fears expressed, particularly in relation to institutions. Patients in these institutions are usually aged, infirm and very often mentally incapacitated. They are particularly vulnerable to undue pressures, and these regulations will only worsen the situation. Instead of having feverish activity on one day, with these regulations you are going to increase the opportunity for canvassers, perhaps members of the staff in the institution to get at these gullible people who would be more amenable than the ordinary person.
For that reason we must be very careful. The local elections will be held in the month of June and steps should be taken to prevent these abuses which are inevitable in institutions. Would the Minister tell me if this facility is extended to electors living on islands off our coasts?
There is the same facility as in the normal way, but if there is any special reason why an island off the coast could not vote in the normal way——
Because the electorate very often living on islands are marooned in winter time.
Of course, there are already arrangements made for ten days.
Why not extend this?
This can be done if it is necessary. There are people who would resent the fact of their ballot booth being taken away from them. Arrangements can be made.
Generally?
No.
I am talking about the Aran Islands and other islands.
It can be arranged.
I should like to ask one question. Who will supervise the voters in the mental hospitals or in places where there will be postal voters? Will every political party send in their own people to secure votes?
I hope not.
How are you going to prevent it? Who will supervise the voting in mental hospitals or in places where there are very sick people? How long must a person be absent from an area before his vote becomes ineligible? If he went to America for 12 months, could he vote? These are the questions which the people want answered. If a man went down the country would his name be on the voting list in the country as well as in the city?
Does the same apply to members of the local authorities working in councils who can now go for election if they wish? Does the same apply to Departments for Dáil elections? Why have it for one group and not for another?
I shall be introducing a Bill about that next week. It is not included in this Bill.
I understand but——
I do not want to debate it now.
I think when you allow, under this Bill, members of local authorities to go forward for election, the same should apply to members of Departments for election to Dáil Éireann.
First, I should like to thank the Senators for the way in which they dealt with these motions with the exception of a few people who wanted it and did not want it. Most of the people seemed to agree that this is a measure which is long overdue and I am glad that I had the opportunity of introducing it.
Like everybody else here, I am no political neophyte and I know quite well that there may be abuses. There are items in it which can be abused. There are items in the regulations we have at present which can and have been abused. We all know this. It is our job to try to prevent the abuses. As far as I can see, I am attempting to include in the regulations safeguards to prevent these abuses. But I did not want to create a situation where the cure would be worse than the disease, by putting such tight regulations that people would not bother using them. Nobody here would expect me to do that. We have all heard about people who move from one area to a new housing area, particularly in the cities, and where somebody went around and collected the voting cards. It was alleged that they had been voted on. I cannot prove this, but it has been alleged against every party at every election. This abuse could be prevented by the motion before the House.
I hope that as a result of this motion many people who are entitled to vote and have not had the opportunity will now be able to do so. If this motion achieves this objective everybody here will be satisfied. If anybody suggests that it will change the political pattern, then they do not know much about politics. The pattern will be exactly the same. When the results come in there will be a percentage of votes of each of the parties and, indeed, of independents that will follow along the very same. But it will at least mean that people who are entitled to vote will have a vote.
Reference was made to the register of electors. The register of electors is drawn and its compilation is not included in this Bill. As it has been referred to, let me say that I sent out explicit instructions to have the register of electors drawn up more accurately than it had been. I do not know who is at fault. All of us know that over the years the most extraordinary errors, omissions and additions have occurred on the register of electors. We found that people who had been on the register all their lives mysteriously disappeared when the register was compiled. For that, again, people who had left an area for years appear on the register of electors.
I am afraid it has happened again.
I gave instructions that if this matter was brought to my notice I would take a very serious view of it. If any Senator knows of this happening, I should be glad if the particulars were given to me.
I also pointed out that I issued to Deputies and Senators on two occasions a circular letter. Whether we like to admit it or not, we, as politicians, have a vested interest in the correct compilation of the register of electors. I issued the advice to them that they should in their own areas ensure that the register of electors was compiled as carefully as possible. Most of the public representatives welcomed this reminder and very many of them went to great trouble to ensure that proper steps were taken to have a more accurate register of electors.
Under the recommendations made in 1960, under a committee of the two Houses, anybody who leaves the country and says he will be back again in 18 months is entitled to be on the register of electors. If he makes that declaration, he must be put on by the county registrar. This recommendation was accepted at the time and it is still in existence. Whether we should have another look at this recommendation as a result of what has been stated here is a matter we should consider. This was the recommendation made and this is how we have compiled it.
Senator Yeats asked what premises would be used for the counting of votes. At present, schools and local authority premises will be used. It is not intended to use hospitals. No change in the system is proposed. I can assure Senator Yeats there is nothing extraordinary in the proposal. In regard to Article 10, I think Senator Yeats was a little off the point. Article 10 states:
A returning officer at a local election has the right to use, free of charge, for the purpose of taking the poll, any room in any school which receives a grant out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
For the purpose of clarification this article indicates that a school in this context includes primary and post-primary schools and that schools may, if necessary, be used for counting of votes as well as for voting. This is simply a matter of clarification. No change in substance is involved.
Senator Yeats may have been looking at it from another angle. There is no change proposed. I am as anxious as Senator Yeats is to ensure that the schools are not closed for too long a period. In most local authorities the closing of the schools is for one day.
With regard to the question of notifying the returning officers, we have already sent out advance notification to them of what it is proposed to do. We are arranging for printing and other matters provided this goes through the two Houses quickly enough. It is proposed to have a type of seminar or discussion with returning officers which will explain what is to be done. There was a great temptation to leave this over to be dealt with later. However, I decided that if a start had to be made it should be made as quickly as possible. While it may appear rather rushed it is now intended to have it for the local elections on the 18th June next but the House may be assured that it is as accurate as possible and all necessary precautions have been taken. Because we expected it would get a general welcome here and in the other House, we have taken certain steps with regard to printing forms and so on, which would not normally be taken until the motion had been passed. I take Senator Lenihan's point that we must ensure that everybody knows as far as possible what is being done and what it is necessary to do.
I referred to the question of those who are allowed to be on the register if they state they will be in their residence within 18 months. This is the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Electoral Law, 1960-61.
In reply to Senator Ryan, I agree that qualifications are very wide. It would not be possible to list particular categories. The cure could be worse than the disease. By listing categories, we could leave out somebody who would normally be entitled to a vote. This would be a mistake. There is a good deal of pressure by commercial travellers from whose association I have had a deputation. The trade unions have mentioned lorry drivers and lighthouse keepers have been mentioned also. Nobody made representation except an occasional public representative regarding sick people but if we are doing the job we should try to include as many people as possible.
Senator Ryan suggested there might be abuse. This could happen but I do not wish to tie it up so tight that it would mean that people would not look for a postal vote on account of the trouble involved. There are fairly heavy penalties for electoral abuses such as the abuse of interfering with the postal vote or of the right to vote or how it is done.
Senator McGlinchey, having five cousins in the priesthood, and could hardly be accused of attempting to traduce the clergy, spoke about a stole being put around a person's shoulders in an effort to force him to vote for a certain person. I hope the Senator is not suggesting that that type of influence is not used at the present time, not necessarily among the clergy. We have heard of cases where people are easily persuaded to vote for somebody they did not know. Senator Fitzgerald spoke about cars being lined up to bring people from institutions to the polling booths while, perhaps, the people are left to walk home. I saw patients being taken out of bed and wheeled down to vote. It would be better to allow these people to vote independently. I presume the matrons of hospitals would guard against any outside interference where patients might be threatened into voting in a way they did not wish.
There may be people who are ill and their families will persuade them to vote in a particular way. The pattern in this country has always been that the family votes for the same party.
Not always.
Usually. If an old person is brought to the voting booth the presiding officer is usually told that the person needs assistance in casting his or her vote. Nobody other than the person who marked the ballot paper knew what way it was marked even though the person who was actually voting might not want to vote in that particular way if given his freedom.
The point I was making concerned the application for the vote. One clergyman in every county who would be prepared to agree to a forgery could cause a great deal of trouble.
I would not accuse any clergyman of whatever religion of being a party to a forgery.
There could be one in each county.
I would not agree and I would prefer if Senator McGlinchey did not make that charge unless he can prove it.
I am not able to prove it.
If he finds out that it happens or if there is an electoral abuse such as he described earlier, there are ways of dealing with it and there are very heavy penalties for using undue influence. It is dangerous to discuss this in a general way. We must all ensure that as far as possible there are no abuses.
Senator Hanafin stated it would be a breach of the secrecy of the ballot to give a supplemental postal list to candidates. There is no other way in which to decide. The registers which will be included in the ballot box for the use of the officers at the polling station will have the postal votes marked off. There must be some way in which the personating agents would know who are the postal voters. The candidates are directly involved and there is no breach of the regulations by giving them shortly before the election a list to show who has already voted. In the event of somebody applying for a postal vote and going to a booth and saying "I did not receive a postal vote" he is entitled in the same way as anybody else who claims a vote and is not on the list to swear or to affirm that he did not get the postal vote. In that way he can cast his vote in the usual way. If it is proved that the postal vote has been delivered and used he is in the same position as anyone else in that he is subject to the electoral penalties which apply. This area is fairly well safeguarded.
I have dealt with Senator Moynihan's question of institutions. Long-stay patients are registered at their home addresses so that their votes will be spread over a wide area. I do not think there will be such a tremendous number of people applying for postal votes. I think it was Senator Dolan, or maybe it was Senator Aylward, who talked about people who were away from home— people who work away from home and return at weekends. They will normally be on the register at their homes and, therefore, they will be entitled to apply for a postal vote which will be sent to the address at which they are staying, not their home address. I think it is right that we should give these people their right to vote.
Another point made by Senator Aylward was that it was possible that these people could be registered in Dublin, although they come from Meath or Cavan or some such place, and may be attempting to get a second vote; but I do not think this is a great danger. I agree that if it turns out to be a big danger we will have to have a look at it again. The local elections at least will give us an opportunity of seeing how it works. I think we are lucky that it is being tried out in this way. If it turns out that certain aspects of it are wrong we can change it after we see what happens. This is one of the reasons, not the only reason, why the Bill to cover the whole matter is not being introduced now but will be introduced after the local elections. Let me be quite honest about it, it is the time factor involved that has dictated that it be dealt with in this way. It would not be possible to get a Bill through which would cover all the points in time to give notice of the local elections. This is a trial run which we can operate and if it turns out that any portion of it is wrong it will be easy to have it attended to when the Bill is being drawn up at a later stage. If a person is on the register— it will require a change in the law to deal with this—and if he applies for a postal vote he will be entitled to vote.
Senator Sanfey referred to the question of Army men who may be away from the country. This does not refer at all to the Army because, as in the normal way, the ballot papers will be sent to GHQ, where they will be dealt with. Perhaps I should make it clear that under these regulations it is not proposed to extend postal voting to, for instance, members of embassies abroad or to emigrants. Whether those categories should be included at a later stage is something which can be considered in the next Bill because there are arguments for and against such a course. Certainly an effort should be made if at all possible to ensure that people in embassies are entitled to vote. It is not possible under this regulation to have them included. I want to make it clear lest anybody is in doubt; they are not included here.
In reply to Senator Killilea, anyone who is absent from his address where he is registered can apply for a postal vote. These include students and other categories mentioned by the Senator. Senator McGlinchey spoke about clergymen, but I have already dealt with that. Unless there are any other points of clarification which any Senator may wish to put, I think I have answered most of the questions raised. I should like to thank the House for their attention.
I have just one point to raise, as I am not sure whether the Minister clarified it. Do I take it that when a postal vote is issued that that would be recorded on the register going into the ballot box for the returning officer?
Yes. In fact, there was a suggestion made that the name should be crossed with a green stroke to show that it had been issued.
May I take it that this applies only to the current register. Did I understand the Minister to say he would make some announcement whereby people who might have been careless regarding registration in their place of voting because they knew they would not have any postal vote——
No. The current register is issued and regardless of whether there are mistakes in it, the only procedure is to take it to the High Court. I believe it can be tested that way but it is not proposed to alter the existing current register from 14th April, 1974.
I just mentioned it because in my own constituency an application was brought by the Minister for Lands to the local court to try to prevent a resident of County Cavan who was living in Mayo from having a vote. I am happy to say that he was unsuccessful and that the person's name is on the list.
