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Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Apr 1975

Vol. 80 No. 4

Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1975: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I just want to refer very briefly this morning to section 3 (1C) which prohibits the authority from intruding into the privacy of an individual and to welcome this legislative innovation. The development of journalism, particularly in the United Kingdom, since the beginning of this century towards a popular form of journalism has inevitably meant that there has been an increasing encroachment upon the private domain and that the personalities of individuals have become as much a subject matter for journalistic investigation and reportage as events of State and other such things. The line between what is private and what is fair game for public comment has changed significantly in journalistic practice over the last three-quarters of the century, and at the moment it not only varies from country to country but within a single country it varies, of course, from epoch to epoch. Within a country at a given time it varies even between different types of people because some are regarded as public personalities, particularly those in politics, while others are regarded by the journalists as private people to whom quite different standards apply.

It is true to say that, irrespective of the extent to which an individual's private life can be put under public scrutiny, there remains an area which should be secured from the prying eye, unless of course the person under scrutiny is in some way involved in activities which could be associated with crime or with activities which are regarded as being contrary to the public interest. In such cases journalists would argue then that the invasion of privacy is no more than an integral part of the business of general exposure.

In the absence of these considerations there is a point beyond which the invasion of privacy is done solely for the sake of public titillation and the satisfaction of public curiosity. Fortunately this has not been a feature of Irish journalism, although it is, regrettably, very much a feature of British journalism particularly in respect of mass circulation newspapers.

I believe the Minister is correct in putting this impediment in the path of the development of that type of journalism in Irish television and radio broadcasting. The objections of the NUJ on this point are influenced more by the British experience than by the standards which have hitherto obtained in Irish journalism.

Television of course brings its own ethical problem into this area of privacy, because one can literally eavesdrop on an individual without his or her knowledge and can literally record, through a hidden camera or microphone or both, the private words or actions of the unsuspecting. It has been sociologically established that in private we behave in a different mode to that in which we behave in public. It would be grossly unethical to use private behaviour for public amusement, because it would be very likely in certain circumstances to hold up the individual to ridicule and contempt.

This is a problem which is raised in television in a particular way, for example, in the "Candid Camera" type of programme, the fruits of which, I presume, are usually broadcast with the consent of the individual who has behaved in an unsuspecting way before the camera. But the very fact that the permission of the person involved is sought gives, I believe, a quasi-legal copyright to a person's privacy and to a person's private behaviour. I believe it to be correct that it should be respected by journalists and such a provision should be incorporated now in legal form in this Bill and I congratulate the Minister on it.

I should like to make just one central point in respect of section 4— the broadcasting complaints commission—the provisions of which in reality give legal line to the broadcasting complaints commission which was established by the Minister since he took office. I am convinced that the establishment of this commission will provide a safeguard not only for the public, but equally important and in certain circumstances more important, for the authority. It will provide a safeguard against interference which is either frivolous or based on unworthy or in some cases quite suspect motives.

It is inevitable that a medium like television will evoke on occasion very strong reaction from individuals or from groups of individuals who believe they have been unfairly treated by the medium particularly in the area of news and current affairs programmes. It is essential in these circumstances, when such a belief exists, that a legislative mechanism should be established whereby the complaints can be lodged and processed in an orderly and predetermined manner and adjudicated on. We will accept that in the main the complaints lodged against the authority will be of a minor character and that there will be little difficulty in handling them. It may be asked, if that is the case, why the necessity to establish a commission whose composition, functions and role occupy four pages of this Bill? The answer lies in the fact that perhaps once or twice in a decade a major controversy will arise about the use of television. In those circumstances it is far better to have an established body to deal with the problem rather than having recourse and having the issue determined by an ad hoc tribunal such as, for example, handled the “7 Days” programme on money lending.

When one looks back at the impact of that tribunal, it justifies the contention that a body such as the broadcasting complaints commission should exist even in moth balls so that it can be wheeled out ready for use when a major confrontation occurs, particularly when it is between the Government of the day and the RTE Authority. This is the area where the greatest contention will arise in terms of complaint. Even if the mechanism were going to be used only once in a decade, then I believe its inclusion in this Bill would be justified. We should never again tolerate a situation where the Government of the day established a judicial tribunal to investigate and report on the making of a current affairs programme rather than the social evil which that programme sought to analyse.

That tribunal had, in my view, a disastrous effect on current affairs programming in RTE. That tribunal effectively broke up the most expert team of broadcasters and producers in the current affairs area which RTE had assembled and which it has not yet equalled in terms of ability. It created an atmosphere of suspicion, doubt and censorship within RTE from which it has only recently escaped. The very fact that the tribunal took place at all is the strongest argument in favour of the broadcasting complaints commission which the Minister proposes in this section. It will prevent any Government in the future from venting its displeasure on the authority by trundling out the massive apparatus of a judicial tribunal, the very nature of which is intimidating.

I cannot therefore understand the objections of those who believe that the commission to be either unnecessary or cumbersome. I regard it essentially as a protective mechanism for the authority from Government interference on the grounds of investigating alleged impartiality. At the same time it is a mechanism for the individual citizen or for groups of citizens who can employ the commission if there is a belief that injustice has been done by RTE. For these reasons I believe its establishment is a far-reaching and a very wide measure which should have support.

The Minister invited the House to speculate with him on a number of questions which he poses as to the nature of a liberal democratic society and the measures which it should take to protect itself. He anticipated that this might provide the focal point of the debate on this Bill. However, in general it can be stated that we are by nature a non-speculative people and that section 6 of this Bill is going to prove far more seductive than sections 2 or three. It is not surprising, therefore that section 6 has attracted so much attention on the question of rebroadcasting.

This is a question which must be put into a far wider context than simply the question of an Irish Government permitting the rebroadcasting of a British television channel. I want to refer to an article by Richard Dill in the European Broadcasting Review, published in January of this year, which was entitled “Television in the 1980s.” The very title of the article puts this debate in the proper time perspective, since it is the television problems of the late seventies and eighties to which we should be addressing ourselves in this debate. This author makes the following disconcerting point early on in his article. He offers the view, and I quote:

In the course of the next few years the two programming models based on market and planning principles will diverge to an increasing extent. The market model means that the majority decides on the programming policy: programming by constant referendum. The other alternative is the planning model, planning based on the principle of authority, programming devised for the majority by an élite, by a minority.

This is a minority which has been described as "enlightened despotism" by the chairman of the EBU radio programme committee. There has been more than a faint odour of that enlightenment in this Chamber whenever section 6 has been debated. Section 6 deals with the possibility of the rebroadcasting by RTE of a British channel in the immediate future in preference to the establishment of a second RTE channel. Dill, in that article, warns that in the years ahead programme makers will be caught between the claims of the majority and the dictates of minorities—a prophetic warning because the minorities are very active in this de-date.

Senator Robinson epitomised this attitude when she opposed the Governments proposal to provide choice of programmes in the single-channel area by the possibility of rebroadcasting a British channel. She proposed instead the second RTE channel for the entire country which would consist of, as she said, at column 947 of the Seanad Official Report of 19th March, 1975, "the cream of programmes broadcast on other services." The problem is that the people in the single-channel area do not want cream; they want skim milk. I believe they are entitled to what they want, provided it is financially and technically possible to provide the service.

I also feel that part of the reason this argument is being conducted with such ferocity is that the ordinary people in the single-channel area know only too well that the real issue is, whose hand is going to be on the button—theirs or that of some fellow in Dublin who thinks he knows what is best for them. The central issue is one of programme control, as was made evident in an RTE interview last night with the new Director General, Oliver Maloney. The question is: do the people of Cork, Kerry, Galway and Mayo get BBC 1 as broadcast or do they get an edited version of BBC 1, BBC 2, UTV and possibly European stations as decided by some expert on cream in Dublin?

What we have got here is a national version of a controversy that is affecting all advanced countries with developed television services. We should not make the mistake of believing that our problem is so unique that it is without parallel or of thinking it is so commonplace that we have all the answers readymade. I suggest we should put the issue in perspective by recalling the following ten facts:

(1) Irish television was established because the people in the multi-channel area were already watching British television and because a national television service was considered a right as well as a necessity.

(2) After RTE's establishment nobody proposed that British television should be jammed on the grounds that it was culturally damaging or financially ruinous to RTE.

(3) Nobody has yet proposed that the 50 per cent of the population in the multi-channel area should now be denied access to British television.

(4) Nobody has proved that the 50 per cent of the population in the multi-channel area are discernibly more anglicised, Americanised, de-Gaelicised or brainwashed by foreign cultural, commercial or political influence than those in the single-channel area.

(5) In the multi-channel area RTE's share of the audience is just under half. This shows it can compete with the three other channels.

(6) All the evidence suggests that the 50 per cent of the population who live in the single-channel area want the same type of programme choice as is available in the multi-channel area.

(7) The only way at the current stage of television technology in which the single channel area can be given the same type of programme choice with additional channels is by the provision of one new transmitter network per extra channel. If the people in the single-channel area want three extra channels, there will have to be built three additional transmitter networks.

(8) At present money values the cost of an extra transmitter network is £3.7 million. Full programme choice throughout the entire country, would, on present money values, cost £11.1 million and I am basing those figures on the Minister's speech at column 774 of the Seanad Official Report of 12th March.

(9) Cable television is not the answer if the provision of full programme choice throughout the entire country is wanted, as about 40 per cent of the population live outside concentrations of 20 houses or more. Therefore the cost of 100 per cent cable television coverage would be economically prohibitive, the same type of problem as arises, for example, in rural electrification.

(10) One extra transmitter network is currently being built.

Given these facts and I believe all these points to be facts rather than conjecture, the question is what do we want to do with the second transmitter network? Are we to put BBC 1 on it, if available, or RTE 2. I am a firm believer in the proposition that if the people want bread they should not be offered cake. In the area of the country where multi-channel choice is possible the people have demonstrated that they want multi-channel choice. The forest of TV aerials in our towns and in our cities and our countryside is tangible, concrete proof of the people's actual choice, proof which cannot be denied, explained away or criticised as being anti-national, since they are the nation not the self-appointed cliques, enlightened or otherwise. If part of the population living with the possibility of multi-channel choice have turned that possibility into an actuality of their own volition, we could argue a priori that the other half of the population would opt for multi-channel choice if given the same possibility. I do not think that is stretching common sense too far.

On the 27th February of this year Mary Maher wrote in The Irish Times:

It is still not quite clear whether the many groups outside Dublin seeking multi-channel television really want BBC 1 or whether they might actually prefer the alternative proposal, that is, RTE 2, if they had a choice.

She got a reply on the 8th March in a letter from a Mr. M.J.R. Cogan of Glanmire, Co. Cork, who wrote:

As a member of the Cork Multi-Channel Television Campaign Committee for a number of years I can categorically answer for Cork. There are 14 local authorities in Cork. Everyone of these authorities has passed a resolution in favour of multi-channel television, that is they have plainly recorded their views that the people whom they represent should be able to receive the same programmes as those people on our East Coast who can receive BBC 1, BBC 2 and ITV.

Politicians are reasonably accurate barometers of public pressure. If local authorities in the mass in a county like Cork on a non-party issue, as it was previously, give a consistent decision, then I think it can be held with more than normal political certainty that this is what the majority of people on the ground actually want. If one adds to that evidence the discernible pressure exerted on all of us who engaged in the Cork and Galway by-elections, then we can conclude that Mr. Cogan of Glanmire is on fairly firm grounds in his assertion.

Looking at the forest of TV aerials in Dublin and elsewhere, and having experienced the lobbying of the multi-channel campaign committees in the single-channel areas during those by-elections and at other times, I have no difficulty in believing that ordinary people if left alone and if given the opportunity will decide on multi-channel television. I do not believe them wrong in so deciding. I do not believe any Government to be wrong because they decide to help them in obtaining that choice. Therefore charges of national apostasy, of cultural sell-outs and betrayal, if they are going to be made, should be levelled at the viewers and not at the Government, although I understand that the principle that the people have the right to do wrong has long ago been abandoned even by Fianna Fáil. I think it is regrettable that this debate on programme choice in the single-channel area should have led to a manifestation of what can only be described as cultural chauvinism from predictable sources and by some others which were not predictable on previous experience. But I think the Minister will have to live with that and with the wildly exaggerated charges that he is handing over our national airwaves to a foreign power, when all he is doing, like any good democratic politician, is attempting to provide the people with the service they desire.

I said earlier that we should not imagine our situation to be unique or that the problems raised by it are being handled for the first time. Every small country with the same language as a larger neighbour has tended to enjoy its neighbour's television. Normally this is done by cable, but this mainly arises because cable is more suited to private enterprise and very frequently extra legal enterprise at that. The two classic cases where this occurs are in Belgium and Canada. In Belgium, for example, the cable system became so complex that the State had to step in and rationalise the microwavelengths and provide a choice of eight foreign channels.

Belgium is a very densely populated country, unlike Ireland, and cable provides an adequate answer for most of the population. In Canada, where the same density of population exists along the border with the United States—there are of course areas which are sparsely populated, but the highest proportion of the population lives close to the US border—cable television has also provided the answer there. In Canada they decided the correct way to protect their own culture was to prevent the exploitation of the local advertising market by American stations and so they arranged for the substitution of commercials for the benefit of Canadian broadcasting corporations. The recent Federal Court of Appeal decision in the Rogers case showed that the objections of the US TV stations to this process could not be sustained in law.

The same demand for foreign programmes when there is a common language took a slightly different turn in Italy. There the demand first came from the German- and French-speaking border regions. In those areas German and French language channels were rebroadcast by the Italian National Broadcasting Corporation. Subsequently the demand for colour television, which we know occurs here too, led to a major private enterprise rebroadcasting of Italian language broadcasts emanating from both Switzerland and from Yugoslavia. The Italian Government tried to stop this but was restrained by the Supreme Court and the broadcasting decree which has been recently debated in Italy provides for the rebroadcasting of foreign channels with advertisements eliminated.

If one wanted one could offer further examples, but I think they are unnecessary, to establish the fact that poaching of other people's television is commonplace and that institutional problems are raised by governments to the express demand of the people of one country to have access to the television of their neighbour. In Ireland it was a previous Government who permitted the use of cable television to transmit British programmes into Irish homes, if one wants to use emotive language, when in 1967, at the insistence of its then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Neil T. Blaney, it installed cable television in Ballymun. What happened next was predictable. There were extra-legal installations of cable television in other parts of Dublin, exactly the same pattern as in Canada, Belgium and Italy to which I have previously referred.

The Fianna Fáil Government of the day responded, not by outlawing or by banning cable television bringing British programmes into Irish homes and thus exposing the people and RTE to all the dangers of which the Minister is now being warned, but by legalising and controlling cable television and by permitting RTE itself to go into the business of providing cable television. For example RTE Relays have wired my home for cable television. Therefore I receive, through an agency of the State and by deliberate Government decision, British television in my Irish home. The present Government have approached this situation with more openness and candidness than their predecessors. The present Minister has eliminated the ridiculous limit of 500 outlets on the cable system and he has put a levy on private cable revenues in order to compensate RTE for any loss of income that might occur.

The situation has now gone one stage further. It is proposed to provide those outside the area which can be covered by cable with an additional channel currently being received in the multi-channel area. This is an institutional response to an actual situation, not one which is being traded by the Government but one which exists because the people have decided that it exists. At the same time the Minister and the Government have suggested that RTE be offered to the people of Northern Ireland on a reciprocal basis. This is the open broadcasting concept which is simply a variation of the multi-channel problem which exists in other countries. I do not believe it is central to the problem and is not necessary to justify the proposition contained in the Bill.

The introduction of RTE 2, as an alternative to a British channel, is the biggest red herring to swim into the political pool for a long time. It belongs to a totally different area of argument, unless of course one is arguing that the people of Tipperary, Limerick, Cork, Kerry or Galway should have censorship of British programmes while the people in Dublin go uncensored. Some are putting forward that argument although they are not admitting to it publicly.

The RTE 2 proposal is an omnibus title for three different concepts: (1) a channel which complements RTE 1 along the lines of BBC 2's relationship with BBC 1; (2) a channel which compensates for the unavailability of British television in half the country by providing a selection of their programmes and (3) a channel which does neither but which widens programme choice by offering a selection of British, West European, North American and East European programmes.

It is self-evident that RTE 2 cannot be all three things simultaneously. It is either a genuine Irish second channel complementing RTE 1, or a compendium of British programmes compensating for the absence of British programmes in the single channel area, or a magazine of all that is best, the cream of the world's television programmes. But it cannot be all three things simultaneously. In fact, these are not really alternatives, they are contraries.

The compensation model is the most insidious, being the worst form of élitism, whether enlightened or otherwise that one could encounter. The variation model, No. 3, is a luxury in present circumstances. The only model which has any value is model No. 1, which is the genuine complementary channel. The argument against it at the moment must revolve around the fact that there is no popular demand for this channel, that RTE 1 needs the total attention of broadcasters in the medium term and that it would be crippling, financially, at a time when RTE 1 is in financial difficulties anyway.

Much of the confusion regarding the choice of priorities for the immediate future has arisen because some people believe that BBC 1 and RTE 2 are mutually exclusive. As I understand it, they are not. The real decision is which comes first? We have been allotted six frequencies by international agreement. If we put BBC 1 on the second channel we still have four channels remaining on which we could eventually put, if one had the resources to do so, BBC 2, ITV or RTE 2, if we thought that necessary and if we could afford it. Therefore we are being presented with a false dichotomy when one alleges that to opt now for BBC 1 is to remove for all time the possibility of RTE 2. It is simply not so. In any event RTE 1 has sufficient programming problems of its own without foisting on it at this time a second channel.

That is rubbish.

Last Saturday's Evening Herald, which is not rubbish, gave the TAM ratings for the week ending 16th March and these are instructive. The top four programmes are foreign produced—two American, two British, two comedies and two detectives. The next four are Irish produced—“Cross Country Quiz”, “The Riordans”, Frank Hall's programme and “7 Days”. However, the next two programmes in the TAM ratings, “This is Your Life” and “Rhoda” should cause some concern for those who believe that Irish television should be permeating a specifically Irish culture. “This is Your Life” is broadcast live and could not possibly be more English. “Rhoda”, a popular comedy, appears to be as much New York as the Damon Runyon stories. “The Late Late Show” comes eleventh after those two programmes.

These TAM ratings indicate both the realities and the difficulties of RTE—their necessary reliance on foreign-produced programmes and their failure to produce programmes which occupy the top places in the TAM ratings, problems of which Oliver Maloney spoke quite freely and openly last evening on RTE in an interview with Cathal O'Shannon. Two things are evident here: it is not possible to produce 100 per cent Irish television, no more than it is possible in any country to produce indigenously 100 per cent of your television output. It is not possible to get away from the fact that what is being produced must be improved. I am sure that all of us were encouraged by Oliver Maloney's interviews, on radio last Sunday and yesterday on television, when he openly admitted the necessity of changing both programme philosophy and the quality of RTE programmes. I admire his scepticism about the validity of Brecht on television and his strictures on existing programmes in specified areas, particularly in relation to children's television, at which RTE has been lamentable and for which there is no excuse.

If any section of the community is to benefit in the present single-channel area by the rebroadcasting of BBC 1 it will be the children. They will be given the opportunity of seeing some of the best children's television in the world. The failure of RTE to produce good children's television programmes—for example, a good popular comedy series, an urban equivalent of "The Riordans", or a situation drama series—are a cause for serious concern. It is to be hoped that the impetus of the new Director General over the next two to three years will produce significant improvements in these very important television programming areas. Any channel which fails to produce good programmes in these areas will lose audiences. The new Director General has recognised that and he is to be commended for it. We should permit him to get on with the job and, having completed it, we might return to the question whether RTE 1 should have a second channel.

One final observation should be made on this question of multi-channel viewing. The advent of satellite transmission is probably a decade away. We will have our share of channels allotted to us and, therefore, the possibility will exist of Irish television receivers being capable of receiving additional channels, not only Irish but also UK. There is a further possibility that they will be able to see them without any direct mediation by Irish authority. Consequently, the idea that we can impose a cultural Chinese wall around the entire country will be, technologically, an anachronism in the 1980s.

We should not waste our time here arguing about a situation which will probably be ended in the 1980s. The people of Cork and Kerry will by that time have a far wider variety of choice than anticipated at present. Our attention should be directed towards improving RTE 1 which will have to compete with a far larger number of channels than we anticipate now.

The Minister's proposals in section 6 should be supported. They are both far-seeing and democratic. There is no danger to jobs in RTE other than those arising from poor programming. No danger arises from Government policy. The Minister has indicated that RTE will have adequate financial safeguards from the effects of multi-channel viewing. The real challenge is to the programme producers in RTE. If they can provide Irish television audiences with television programmes they wish to see, no employment problems will arise. Section 6 should, therefore, be supported unequivocally.

With regard to section 13, it is only necessary to make a very brief comment of commendation. This section modifies section 17 of the Principal Act. Williams criticised the failure to submit the national consensus which determines the programme philosophy to regular open review. It is remarkable that in the debate on the Principal Act so little attention was directed to the duties of RTE as outlined in section 17. The national aim of restoring the Irish language was assumed into the general duty without much analysis or debate. The Minister's reformulation of the general duty of RTE corresponds more closely with the reality. It emphasises the elements which make up Irish culture and to which regard must be had by the programme makers in RTE. This reformulation is in line with the Government's thinking on these and related matters. It will be regarded as a significant advance in demythologising some of the factors which make up Irish culture.

I wish to comment on the financing of RTE as it has arisen not only in relation to the rebroadcasting concept but because it exists as a real problem. In an article in the January edition of the European Broadcasting Review Richard Dill referred to the growing cost of television production. He forecast that because of the slowdown in world economic growth the period of fast and spectacular growth in television, expressed by the increase in viewers and incomes, is coming to an end. We know that economic growth is slowing down at present, no just because of endogamous factors but also because of influences endogamous to the system. Dill's pessimism may err by being slightly optimistic.

He drew a conclusion and expressed it as a warning. He says: "Let's not talk about the future expansion of television. Let's talk about what seems the most important task that lies ahead of us: the preservation of television. Even if all we want to do is to maintain the present status and output, we'll have to spend a lot more in doing so over the next few years."

In common with most industries television is suffering from stagnation in income and explosion in costs. The Irish financial model is viable only in times of economic growth and growth in the national set count. In times of economic growth advertising revenue can be expected to be buoyant and it is legitimate to expect that even with high advertising rates the maximum amounts of advertising time will be utilised by the advertising agencies. There is clearly an upper limit to the amount of advertising revenue that can be earned in any one financial year.

In a period when the national set count is growing one can firmly forecast constant growth in licence fees from year to year. It must be remarked that there is an upper limit to the amount of licence revenue which can be gathered in a year since, mathematically, it is a function of both the level of the individual licence fee and the number of television sets within the community.

RTE are faced currently with the situation where economic growth has slowed down to a crawl and where there are severe cutbacks in advertising expenditure, which may eventually affect their own advertising revenue. In addition, the capacity for growth in the number of television sets in the country is practically exhausted. During the sixties the television set count grew between 30,000 and 60,000 per annum. This cannot be expected to continue since we have now virtually exhausted the possibility for growth. The changes that will occur in the future will be from black-and-white to colour. This will increase the licence revenue but the extra revenue will be used in meeting the cost of a full colour service.

There are only three possible financial possibilities open to RTE during the next decade until new technology changes the existing finance structures: (1) they can reduce activity by cutting back on programme output; (2) they can reduce costs by cutting back on the quality of existing output and (3) they can increase income by charging higher licence fees, by expanding advertising and/or increasing the rates or by securing additional revenue from the State.

There is a widespread feeling that the existing licence fees have reached their upper limit in current money terms and that future increases should be confined to compensation for inflation. I have already indicated the reasons I suspect that advertising revenue alone will not be sufficient to meet increasing costs. For these two reasons it seems inescapable that the Exchequer will have to make direct grants to RTE's current expenditure while at the same time funding their capital investment programme through non-repayable advances from the Exchequer. I cannot see a situation in the future in which RTE covers their current costs let alone produce a surplus in order to fund their own capital investment programme from internal sources. There are political difficulties involved here not only for the Exchequer, which is already shuddering under increasing costs and demands, but also for RTE who are financially independent of the Government. Exchequer grants might be interpreted as having strings attached and the annual request from RTE for a subsidy would bring in its trail the sort of civil service examination of their activities from which they would recoil in horror. We must speculate on this future probability in a serious way. Otherwise the financial crisis within RTE will become real in the sense of desperate choices being forced on the authority as regards output and the quality of output.

Perhaps the Minister, in replying, might give some consideration to this analysis and to these proposals. I should welcome his views on the political implications involved in the admission of the State as a third party in the financing of RTE.

I regard section 17 as of very profound importance in the future use of television technology. This section will to a considerable extent determine the future pattern of television production and consumption. There is the possibility that a certain type of development in the use of cable would seriously affect general broadcasting. The danger is that commercial interests will try to turn local broadcasting into private gain. A commercial cable system would not really provide a community service even though some time would be set aside for local information and for services as a way of gaining prestige or consent. It might, rather, take over a significant part of general television entertainment service and have radical effects on general broadcasting.

Williams makes the point that the development of cable would ultimately lead to a campaign against the payment of licence fees to the national television corporation on the grounds that people for the same fee could have access to cable television with a wider variety of choice. This is a development which must be resisted in this country. I presume that the Minister's intention in licensing local programmes for distribution on cable systems is to confine such licences to community organisations which will provide material of genuine local and communal interest.

Such a use would be an exciting application of the most modern television technology to developing community consciousness, to localising cultural influences and to intensifying those influences which are genuinely local. This would be the most beneficial utilisation of the possibilities inherent in cable television and far preferable to permitting the insertion of commercial television into the general service where it would masquerade as a local service.

The current experiments in local television in Dublin should therefore be encouraged and studied closely so that the problems can be identified early and eliminated progressively. The Minister should be congratulated specifically on this provision where he is ahead, not only of the House but of the general public, in recognising the potential of local television. When this Bill is enacted it will provide important social controls over a development which otherwise could get out of hand but which if properly handled could be a means of significantly enhancing community self-awareness.

Senator Horgan brought us all down to earth with a quotation which indicated that social researchers uncover questions rather than answers when they begin to refer to the effects of television on society. In the same vein, the Swedish Institute of Future Studies have thrown a lot of cold water on the assumption that unlimited quantitative increases in information are necessarily beneficial for society. The report refers to information as a kind of noise, as a type of acoustic and visual pollution, with signals and impulses from all directions but which no single human being will be able to absorb and digest—the result being resignation, apathy and defence mechanisms.

This prospect is not too far distant since the advent of satellite communications will almost certainly occur within the next 15 years which is the same period of time as has elapsed since the Principal Act became law. When domestic satellite receivers become plentiful it will make much of this debate on the provision of a second channel seem mediaeval. We will be dealing with the open sky against which there will be little protection except by international agreement. When that happens many of the issues which this Bill and the Minister's speech have raised will take on a fresh relevance and will be used by legislators of the future as a sure guide towards a democratic approach to the ownership, use and control of the media of mass communications.

I should like to join with the other speakers in expressing our appreciation of the opportunity provided for the Seanad to have a discussion in depth on this Bill. The discussion has been in depth. However it looks almost like as if we are engaged in a "Penny-a-Line" competition, such as is run by the Sunday Independent or some other magazine, where we had their TAM ratings of the number of lines produced in the Seanad in every month in every year. I welcome the Minister here. I welcome his intensiveness in the debate. A great deal of usefulness will follow from it.

I hope the Bill will be considerably improved by the contributions made here. However, I am looking for something more than that. I expect that the Minister's experience will bear upon him and that he will convince the Cabinet of the absolute futility of this nineteenth century approach to the legislation in which we are indulging here. We have already spent 18 hours on this debate. Before we get to the Committee Stage, which is the real give-and-take Stage, we will probably have spent 24 hours on the subject. I put it to the Minister quite seriously that it would have been much better if we could have got together in Committee with him and his officials, as is the practice in many modern Parliaments, where there would not be these long marathon contributions in speech, where the Minister could come in and make his contribution and where we could dispute it. In other words what we require is an efficient committee system. I hope this debate will convince the Minister of the absolute necessity for bringing in such a system.

If we had that system it would mean that in the Committee debate concerned with this or any other Bill, first, only the Members present would be those who had an interest. If we look at the attendances here this week it looks as though it might be hard to get sufficient for a committee, there are so few present. I do not for one moment criticise that, because there is nothing more frustrating than to have to sit down completely inactive with contributions being made, where the natural impulse is to join in the debate to balance it to and fro. That is the rational approach. The other approach of sitting like Trappist monks, the Minister included, while somebody declaims on the forum, is outmoded.

The message I want to go out from this debate is that before Parliament becomes irrelevant to the affairs of the country let us modernise it and rationalise it. That is the challenge we face. That is the challenge that the Minister, in what I know must be his frustration at being unable to join in the debate as he so ably could, has to face.

The Committee Stage of this Bill will go on for many days because there, at least, we will be able to have a give-and-take debate. Unfortunately, at that stage, a Minister's position is generally too well defined; he has taken too many stands; he has not got the flexibility that should be available in a more open committee system. I hope the present Minister will be lively in that debate but would still not invalidate my criticism of all Ministers on Committee Stages.

I should like to continue by following the sequence of events as outlined by the Minister. He has done an excellent job in his presentation of the Bill. Long after we will have left Parliament his speech will be read with many of the other fine parliamentary contributions which are read and studied by students in the future.

The Minister, first of all, tackles the question of clarifying and expanding the duty of RTE in fulfilling their task of providing a national television service. I agree that section 17 of the 1960 Act was too general, that it might mean anything or nothing. The Minister has made a very determined and enlightened effort to try to spell that out in greater detail in section 13 of the present Bill.

However, while I commend the ideas expressed I cannot for one moment believe that it is possible for us to put those ideas into legislation. Ideas by their very nature have to be interpreted in the light of the evolving situation. The same goes for all the hopes expressed by the Minister as to how RTE might perform. That can only be judged in an evolving situation. Our approach to it in two or three years time is likely to be substantially different from what it is today. We are in a very dynamic and fast-moving world and therefore it is the only proper interpretation. On the one hand, we have the RTE Authority given these directives. This is not sufficient because the directive is static and the situation is evolving.

The alternative is the Minister. I do not think either the Minister or his Department are in a position to do that or should do it. I pity any Minister at present because of the harrassed lives they have to lead. If they had enough on their plates before, putting the super bureauracy of Brussels on their backs must surely be the straw that will break the camel's back. If it breaks the camel's back by completely modernising and rationalising our present system then I think that joining the EEC will have been worth while for us.

I believe the only way to handle this evolving situation is to have a broad, common-sense interpretation that reflects the values and the judgment of the country as a whole. When it comes to finding a body of people capable of carrying out that task. I ask what is wrong with Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann? I have spent 18 years here and I have the utmost confidence in my colleagues in the Seanad and in the Dáil to reflect collectively the ordinary, common-sense viewpoint of the country as a whole.

Therefore, they are the people who in committee are capable of keeping up with an evolving situation and who are capable of bringing the various strands of opinion together and maintaining the common objective which we all share, whatever party we are in, of making this a better country to live in with more equality of opportunity and a bigger national cake for all to share in. I submit to the Minister that we in the Oireachtas are the people who should be charged with this duty. I hope to move amendments on various aspects of that duty.

I read in regard to section 17 of the paramount need for peace and understanding within the whole island of Ireland. Of course I endorse that, as everybody else does. The whole island of Ireland includes the Republic as well. Therefore, I would press to have this interpreted as meaning promotion of peace and understanding between the people of the Republic. In other words, it is damnable of RTE or anybody else to try to inflame class hatred. Yet, we had a programme last January when we had an appalling attempt to set small farmer against big farmer and to get the two classes at each others throats by what was a completely biassed and uninformed misrepresentation of the position of the National Farmers' Association and of their opponents, the small farmers group.

Likewise, we have evolved from being a rural community to a town and country community and there is the tendency to set one against the other. The people in the city are led to believe that the farmers are living on the fat of the land and that they are a privileged group. I would like to see accepted by all media of public information, but especially RTE, a duty and an obligation to bridge those gaps and to show to the people in the city the difficulties that the farmers have in their very demanding task and in the many unforeseen factors that they have to contend with—weather, crops, drops in prices, uncertainty and so on.

On the other hand, the rural community should appreciate the difficulties of city dwellers and wage-earners and, above all, the risk of being left without a wage packet because a factory closes down. In my system of priorities these considerations are equal to, if not more important than the overall objective of peace and harmony between the two parts of this island. We must demonstrate that there is peace and harmony, mutual appreciation and understanding between the groups in the Republic so that we can show the people in the North that we really have something to offer and that we are a civilised, developed and united community knowing how to share power between ourselves.

I do not think it is possible to write that into the section. If we had a committee drawn from both Houses the Members concerned would share the views I have expressed and would be very keen to promote those views, not in a spirit of dictatorship over RTE but in a spirit of friendly communication and friendly discussion across the table.

In the same section they are enjoined to uphold the democratic values enshrined in the Constitution. Like some of the other speakers I am at a loss to know exactly what are the specific democratic values enshrined in the Constitution. Every value enshrined in the Constitution has been put there by the majority vote of the Irish people.

I think Senator O'Higgins said that if he had been old enough to vote perhaps he would not have voted for the Constitution. If I had been old enough to vote I definitely would have voted for the Constitution because I think it has been an admirable document that has stood the test of time. Like any document it needs to be looked at periodically. There are certain changes some may feel need to be made. Groups who wish to make changes in the Constitution are perfectly entitled to advocate those changes. People opposing the making of those changes are entitled to oppose them. RTE must have an impartial presentation between them, but RTE themselves should never be identified with any campaign to remove or change any article in the Constitution. That is not their function. We should be very keen and determined to ensure that is understood. On Committee Stage therefore I shall move an amendment which will remove the "democratic" and simply ask RTE to uphold the values enshrined in the Constitution, or to uphold the Constitution. In any issue of current controversy where RTE are expected to take an impartial and objective approach, to give equal opportunities to both, the test is that one should be able to have an opinion poll on the question: "Were RTE for or against this?" The answer should be fifty-fifty because RTE are not entitled to have definite opinions on those matters of current affairs. That is the province of the group who are democratically represented and who are in a position to campaign for change.

Take the example from the contraceptives debate we had last year. It does not matter what side one was on in that controversy, the question I want to put to you as parliamentarians, or as people committed to impartiality, is: On what side was RTE in that debate? Quite obviously, any reasonable person in judging would have to say they were vehemently and strongly for the Bill as it was and against those who opposed it. It is immaterial what side one was on in that controversy but what is relevant is the open stand taken by RTE on it. We can only judge that by seeing the effect on the people of the country. Having listened to RTE, if they were asked what side were RTE on, does anybody doubt that four out of every five people in the country would have said, as I have said here, that RTE were strongly compaigning in favour of contraceptives? I have taken that issue only because it was the most recent, but we may have other issues in the future and I do not want that situation to arise again. I ask the Minister to ensure that such a flagrant misuse of their position is not indulged in.

Again, we have here the question of the balance of programmes and it is stated in section 3 that in applying paragraph (b) two or more related broadcasts may be considered as a whole. I do not think that is strong enough, in that any broadcast on current affairs should, if it is possible for RTE, be balanced. If they know the stand taken by the people invited to speak then there is no excuse whatever for not balancing a programme. It makes a better programme to have balance in it and to have the different points of view aired.

It may happen, of course, in some programmes that the producer does not know beforehand or at the time the invitations are given, what the views of those invited are and in that case the provision that a programme can be balanced over two or more broadcasts is all right. I do not like the word "more": I think the balancing should be done in the second programme. Personally—and I think that goes for everyone who values freedom and our ability to think—I will not take either my politics or my religion or any morals from RTE and due notice should be served on them that we do not want lay popes in Montrose. Indeed, we have had far too much of that for the past eight to ten years. Admittedly, there has been a slight improvement recently; some of those have been uncrowned or defrocked, in one way or another.

Would you settle for a religious pope in RTE?

No, sir, I want impartiality there just as in everything else. But to me the "impartiality" in the RTE case with respect to the most recent encyclicals and so on, was that the speakers, those favoured on television, especially the religious speakers, were all predominantly of one view—they were anti the established view, they were anti the view held by the majority of the majority church here. I do not think that was balancing. Again, if we want to reform the Church, or any church, there are plenty of people who have a democratic right to advocate that and to do it but I draw the line at RTE doing it. I draw the line at any commentators on public affairs or anything else being capable of being identified as being openly on one side.

The same section speaks of promoting an understanding of the values of traditions of countries other than the State, including the EEC. That goes without saying and is very worthwhile. We should, in approaching that again, avoid the type of anti-Americanism that was developed over the unfortunate events there in the last couple of years, such as the Watergate affair. We do not condone this, but in the way it was presented and dominated the news there was a general feeling created that all was rotten in America. There was none of the balance that should be there. The America of Watergate was also the America of the New Frontier: it was the America of John F. Kennedy as well as Nixon but that was lost sight of completely in the past two years.

The question must be asked: what is the effect of the public affairs broadcasts and the news and of various commentators on the current happenings in any country? There was a recent series broadcast on China. If one were to believe 50 per cent of that one would have applied for a visa for China in the morning. We know that some material advances have been made but it is by no means the paradise one would be led to believe from what were nothing more than propaganda contributions from RTE. There was no effort made to balance that series. It would have been a simple task as there are many Irish people who have spent many years working unselfishly for the Chinese people in China, who would have been available for comment.

I was particularly impressed on meeting an old lady who was very representative of the ordinary people of the country. She had worked hard and reared a family well on a small income and she now spends a considerable time watching television. Her reaction to that series was that China was heaven on earth. She believes they have no poverty there; and no sickness. That was the effect of four programmes which were not properly balanced. I would ask RTE if they think they have done a balanced job on showing the present day China to us.

The main question we have to tackle is objectivity and impartiality in the presentation of facts.

The complaints commission, as presented, is the nearest thing to a political nonentity I have seen. It has far too much permanence. Is there any need to give this elaborate, quasi-judicial tenure to the members? They can only be removed by decision of the Oireachtas. I have every confidence in any Minister to apply that: the same applies to the RTE Authority. Any Minister would have to have very good grounds before he would act in that way. The previous Minister, Deputy Collins, took very courageous action and most people stood behind him in that action.

I cannot see why any Minister should be afraid to face up to such action. Apart from the grounds on which the members were removed the last time, we do not have Seanad inquiries or sittings to decide, as in America, whether a member is acceptable to sit on a commission. We do not put them on trial as Dr. Kissinger and others went on trial. I take it that the Minister does not conduct any in-depth investigation of a person who is invited to become a member of a commission or body. It may happen that after nomination something comes to light which makes the member concerned definitely unfit for the position. The Minister should have the power to terminate such an appointment quietly rather than have to drag it through both Houses of the Oireachtas always with the danger that it may become a political football on the way. I will seek on the Committee Stage to simplify considerably the methods of removal.

I have no confidence in the commission as set up being able to discharge their functions without great help. They are deciding on what is objectivity and impartiality in presentation. As far as I can make out from reading the Bill if, having made their representations to RTE, if RTE decide to ignore these representations what happens then? The Bill is strangely silent on what recourse they have at that stage.

I do not believe in the big stick in those situations which are so dependent on value judgment. We all have our ideas on what is impartiality and what is an objective approach to the various presentations. I do not think that any three men can really carry the responsibility of interpreting that and keeping up with developments and adjusting in the light of developing circumstances. These men should report to a joint committee of both Houses. Because they would be doing it in a friendly way it would mean probably meeting once or twice a year or otherwise on request. Once a year would probably be sufficient. At the yearly review there would be a representative committee drawn from all parties and the Independents should have a voice on it. The Commission could report on how they interpreted affairs in the past year, the complaints they heard, and what answers they have come up with. Various members would be able to make suggestions. It must be remembered that a consensus of the joint committee is essential. That would be very helpful to the commission.

The alternative is, and the Minister shies away from it, that this commission should report to him and that he should be the adviser. The other is far more democratic and more likely to give a broad consensus. Such a committee would make their yearly report to the Houses and that report, like many hundreds of other reports which come before us, would lie on the table and never be the subject of a debate unless some Members in either House felt it needed to be debated.

This is a common-sense innovation. In that way we could make our contributions and make the complaints commission effective. I do not see the complaints commission as interfering unduly. I see it more in an advisory role and, like everybody else, I want to protect the authority from frivolous complaints. We are concerned with the overall judgment on a six-month or a yearly period. I ask the Minister to see what he can do about this on Committee Stage.

Unfortunately, sometimes standards in television in this or other countries begin to be affected by the worst features of the national press. If gutter attacks are accepted as commonplace in the national press, if a blatant lack of impartiality creeps in and is accepted, then that cancer begins to colour and have its effect on RTE. When I speak of gutter press I speak of the scandalous attacks made on two consecutive Saturdays in the "Backbencher" column on the head of a State with which we have friendly relations, Mr. Harold Wilson. I hold no particular brief for Mr. Wilson. Neither am I enamoured of his policies. But in my opinion, the guttersnipe attacks made on him were a disgrace.

This was paralleled by the utterly revolting attack on Dr. Lucey, Bishop of Cork, last Saturday, in the same gutter column. It is time that we in Seanad Éireann protested against such abuse. Dr. Lucey is the leader of the majority group—95 per cent—in Cork. If the leader of the minority church in Cork, Most Rev. Dr. Purdue, had been criticised in the same vein, do you not think we would all have revolted against such indecency, such scurrility? Yet when it is somebody who is associated with the majority, we are inclined to say everything goes. That was the most disgraceful attack I have seen. I have contemplated writing to the paper but this is a far better forum. I hope that such low standards do not permeate and effect the RTE network. They might say "It goes in the 'Backbencher' column, so we can nibble at it". Evidently, some may feel it makes good television.

I have had many approaches in recent months that people are anything but satisfied with the reception given. Indeed, on the "Late Late Show" one evening, Mr. Gay Byrne gave a lesson on how to write a proper complaint, a complaint that would be listened to. You spend the first part of the letter praising the producer and then make your complaint very apologetically at the end. The advisory committee on complaints must be prepared to accept something more full-blooded than that.

I agree with the powers retained by the Minister to issue directives in the interests of national security, national order and so on. A democratic state has the right to protect itself. It does not simply sit and allow its authority to be eroded by any group, whether that group is eroding it from the military standpoint— threatening it with bombs and bullets —or trying to erode the values on which the nation is based and on which the nation and the Parliament believe the future development of the country rests.

I will now deal with the broadcasting of the proceedings of Seanad Éireann referred to by other speakers. It was unfortunate that the present debate could not have been the opening debate. I do not know what difficulties have arisen in the committee arranging this, but I appeal to them to reach agreement soon because the public would welcome this. We have an ideal opportunity on the 1st May, when we will be debating a motion on the current underfinancing of our secondary school system. We will be showing a state of affairs that is unbelievable in any country which suggests that it favours fair play for all.

I must ask the Senator to confine his remarks to the context of the Bill and not to get involved in other substantive matters.

When issues are very pressing, this is the only forum in which we can highlight them. I am asking all the parties concerned to arrange that the debate on the 1st May on this issue can be the first debate to be broadcast in the Seanad series. The debate will be confined to six hours. The speeches will be confined. We will not have the long distance marathons we have all engaged in on the Broadcasting Bill. We will be confined to half-an-hour and the issues are exceedingly live. Groups throughout the country are interested in them because we face the appalling prospects of the complete disintegration of our secondary system. Therefore I ask the parties and the Minister for Education to co-operate together in making this a memorable 1st May when we get down to the most vital issue affecting us today and where we will endeavour to ensure that in our social priorities education has the place it deserves.

I come now to the question of a second channel. Again I find it difficult to be restrained in this regard. I cannot see any good reason why the second channel must be solely a rebroadcast of BBC 1. Is this what we have come to after our efforts at setting up the State, developing our culture and fostering links with others? Senator Halligan made a case that the people want it. He found out the people in Cork want multi-channel TV. Any group will want something if they can get it for nothing. If multi-channel viewing could be put in for nothing, then, of course, people will say yes they want it.

They are demanding it.

But are they prepared to pay for it? If they are prepared to pay their way we will take notice of them. Are we so bankrupt of ideas that we are not capable of putting up a second channel of our own? We could have the second channel as RTE 2 under the same director who would have the job of coordinating both channels. You do not have to be a programme director or an expert on television to see the many, many programmes that are there for the asking. How often is there a sharp conflict between the interests of different groups on sports alone? There are the groups who want to see a soccer match or those who want to see a hurling or a football match. On the provincial level there is the championships in Leinster, Munster, Connacht and so on. That is only one of the factors involved.

It is said at present that if we have a second channel it will be hard for RTE to survive. If there are two channels operating, I submit that we would be satisfied if they hold the same fraction plus 5 per cent. That means that each is holding about half the audience of the present channel. In short, programmes that would be regarded as not likely to appeal to mass audiences, or an audience of a reasonable size, on a single national television channel would become quite viable when we are in a two-channel situation.

That applies very much to educational programmes, of which we have made little or no use apart from the school programmes in the afternoon sessions. We would not dream of devoting any of our evenings to educational programmes. That seems to be the policy. Maybe it is thought that an educational programme after tea could not hold a sufficient audience. That may be the case on a single channel but in a two-channel situation obviously there would be a sufficient number of citizens keen and anxious for further adult education and willing to use a second channel for such a worthwhile purpose. If that required a State subsidy—and Senator Halligan said we had reached the stage where RTE should be subsidised —I would be prepared to back up subsidies for educational viewings. In that way we would make excellent use of our resources.

We are threatened with extra hours of television. If we have two channels we could shorten viewing time considerably. Let us have quality. Do not let our objective be to be glued to the television screen from 7 o'clock to 12 o'clock at night. Let us have some time to think and read. We should educate our people into more selective viewing and prevent them from degenerating into a nation of morons. We seem to be heading fast in that direction.

Over the past five years has there been any contribution on the philosophy of the EEC? I have not seen—I stand subject to correction—any programme on the founding fathers of the EEC. Yet, the life stories of Schumann, de Gasperi and Adenaeur are worth telling. We could learn of Adenaeur leaving the prison camps and leading his people in the Christian Democratic Movement. That would merit not only one programme on television; his life was rich enough to merit many. We have not shown the great men of our age to our audiences. We made a number of successful programmes on our own people. The recent interview with Seán MacEntee was a first-class production and the previous interview with Mr. James Dillon could be rescreened. Because something was screened five years ago it does not follow that it is not relevant today. Some people like repetition. The programmes at the top of the TAM rating—"The Riordans", for example—are there because viewers are familiar with them. There is a feeling that once documentaries or programmes on music, literature, historical affairs and so on, have been screened they cannot be screened again. Many of those programmes could be shown every few years. A library could be built up. Almost half our population are over 40 years and, for these, programmes reflecting what happened during the past five, ten or 20 years would have a tremendous attraction.

They may not be able to hold the TAM ratings on a single-channel TV, but they certainly would merit a strong place on a second channel. In my view, we have not looked at whether we can produce this or not. We feel a second channel should contain all imported and canned material. I do not for one moment believe that that is the case. I am not frightened by Senator Halligan's forecast, which is probably correct, that within ten years we will have satellite reproduction and will be able to get all channels. I would prefer to be able to get all channels than to be tied down to one.

I should like to make use of the intervening period before we get into this "open-sky" situation to ensure that we build up a second channel of value. I totally disregard the philosophy propounded by Senator Halligan, which is to give the people what they want. Minority socialism is not quite that deep. I would have thought that a socialist in power would have very definite ideas of what is good for the people and would not be so responsive to the whims of the people. I may be wrong in that, but that is my view of socialism. It may not start that way but that is how it progresses.

Whims do not count within the context of the overall objective of a Government's aims. That is legitimate for any Government and any people. Our aims should be to develop this country, making a better place for all to live in, with equal opportunities for all. We cannot get that by politics of envy. We cannot get it by simply fleecing the rich. We may fleece them but what we get is infinitesimal compared to what we would get if every one, at all levels, worked 5 per cent harder. That is the only way the national cake can be expanded and, I assume, that should be the objective of the Government and the political parties in legitimately seeing and describing the future they wish for this country.

I am not happy that we have developed and made enough of our own programmes. When passing the Broadcasting Bill in 1960—my first term in Seanad Éireann—we had hoped that this industry would develop and that we would sell our programmes abroad. That would more than compensate for what we would have to pay for imported programmes. Those objectives have not been realised. Why not? I would have thought that the American television network, if not others, would be open to many of our programmes which were of historic interest, Irish interest, or scenic interest. "Amuigh Faoin Spéir", Eamon de Buitléir's programme, was a jewel of its kind. Where has it gone? It has not been on the television for some time. This is a home-produced progamme of which we can be proud.

Having spent some time in the United States my impression of American television was that it was spontaneous. It could not be as costly as programmes which we regard as necessary. They accept that things can go wrong or that the interviewer may be crushed in crowds. We appear to be afraid of too much spontaneity.

The second television channel could cover the ard fheiseanna. On a single channel the opponents of the party involved will object saying that they are being denied good television viewing and will have to switch to another station. If we had two stations that would be the answer. Any party will command a sufficient audience to merit inclusion in a two-channel situation. Our late President, Mr. Childers, over his last years, pleaded with the newspapers to spread some good news. He said they should not always be after the sensational, the horrible, the seamy and the like. The same could apply to television. Could we see any programmes designed specifically to uplift and to encourage, and show that the world is not as bad as some of the reformers say. There is also a growing tendency towards violence on the screen. We are aware of the tremendous problems of violence in our streets and elsewhere. Much of the violence in the world today can be traced back to the unfortunate influence violence in films had on people all over the world. If we have the complaints committee the question of what is an acceptable level of violence for showing should be kept under scrutiny, commented on and adjusted.

The advent of colour television offers far more possibilities than have been used in our single channel to date. Why not let us feast our eyes on the beauty which is all around us? Then the commentator need not feel that he has to occupy us with a continuous prattle throughout the programme. There programmes aim essentially at the visual —the coming of spring, the coming of autumn, some of our beautiful lakes, scenery, houses, and various happenings. We do not seem to have explored a fraction of the possibilities that are inherent in television. Certainly all these call for the setting up of a second channel under our own control—not a channel solely for buying programmes from anywhere and everywhere but one which is designed to considerably increase the total production of home-produced programmes. If it calls for subsidies and so on, we should not shirk it for one moment. It would be excellent use of our money, and I would back it wholeheartedly if we were provided with a joint committee of the Oireachtas to act as the guide, moderator and friend of RTE in their development.

We might be shocked at some of the extravagances we see on television. I cannot claim to be a very regular viewer because I find I have something better to do with my time. I do look in occasionally. On the programme "This is Your Life" people are brought from the ends of the earth. Expense is no object—presumably first class if they are in that category—all for the sake of showing your face for 30 seconds. I almost got into that exalted position some years ago on a programme on the United Nations which was presented by RTE here. I mention it now as an example of the extravagance which, to my mind, is unpardonable. I was asked to come on the programme with two or three others for three minutes. I was questioned about it on the phone. I said I was very busy and that I could not travel from Cork. The interviewer was insistent.

I then asked him what I had to do. I found I was being cast in the role of a Paisley character who was totally and utterly opposed to the United Nations. I was expected to be the fellow on this programme who wanted it abolished. I told him he would be completely wrong, that I would be highly critical of it and that I would love to see it changed and made more effective in many ways, but I was perfectly certain we were far better off for having it and that we must develop and strengthen it.

I could feel at the other end of the phone a slackening interest in me. I was not running true to the form that was on the sheet. I then said I could not possibly come and that I had not been studying it very carefully. They were prepared to put a taxi at my disposal because I had to be back in Cork for 9 o'clock the following morning. I said: "No, thanks, but if you want any serious contribution on subjects that I am studying, like education or economics, to some extent, or agriculture, I would be very happy to take part in any programme." I never got an invitation on those. The next invitation I got was on censorship, and again I was to be cast in the role of the almighty censor. In refusing the invitation I had again to point out that I was not rightly characterised in that line. This is typical: expense is no object and there is a tendency for sensationalism in the approach to programmes. There is a great deal of room for reform and for change.

As regards the second half of the Minister's speech, it is an excellent treatise. He asks questions on the place of freedom within the democratic State and the right of the State, in the interest of the common good, to limit freedom. For a while I thought I was listening to my own professor in Cork, Professor James Hogan. He would have been proud and happy to second the Minister's comments on this. Seriously I commend him on what is an excellent political treatise, one that we get very infrequently from Ministers. It shows a depth of understanding and wisdom in those areas, which should be brought to the attention of students generally. Needless to say, I am wholeheartedly in favour of his approach; certainly the democratic State has a right to defend itself. Likewise it has the right to put restrictions—the Minister has used the word "censor" if necessary—in the interest of the common good.

All I ask is that the definition of the common good in those cases be made by ordinary common men. Those common men bring me back to where I began, the Committee of both Houses. They are the ordinary backbencher people like you and me in Parliament. We are a representative cross-section. When it comes to defining something like the common good the views of all sections are needed so that a consensus will emerge. No Minister has within himself the power or the right to define what is the common good. It is something that has to reflect all the varying views.

I have unlimited belief in Parliament if it is given a chance. I am wholeheartedly encouraged in regard to the present section by the obvious bitter disappointment of the backbenchers of the Government Party in the role they are called on to play. It is no different to what the backbenchers' role was in previous Government's or that of somebody like myself who was in the Independent benches—not that that is any virtue. The Government backbenchers have no input into policy or into decisions. The time has come to demand this. I applaud those rebels who are appearing in all parties demanding their rightful place, demanding their committees, but not backbench committees. Let them be Oireachtas committees where we meet together and where we hammer out affairs.

I would conclude on that. We shall have an opportunity on Committee Stage of dealing with the various items, one by one. I welcome the assurance by the Minister that he has an open mind on this. I can assure him that we will do our best to tease out the problems. We hope that at the end the Bill will be better for having been put through here, but above all that this Bill may mark the beginning of the emancipation of our parliamentary system from its nineteenth century straitjacket, and that we will see the first showing of a committee system. I ask my fellow Senators to join me in achieving that object.

At the outset I should like to join in the expressions of thanks extended to the Minister for introducing this Bill in the Seanad. Further I should like to congratulate him on his invitation to Senators to help him formulate in greater precision the concept behind the Bill. That is a function of each House of the Oireachtas. It is a good thing that we have a Minister coming in and expressing that view openly and asking for the help and contributions of Senators from all sides of the House to enable him to have the best possible Bill passed through both Houses of the Oireachtas.

As stated by the Minister, the second main purpose of the Bill is to provide greater autonomy and freedom for the broadcasting service within clearly defined statutory restraints and obligations, while at the same time improving public control in certain areas. On this the Minister is to be congratulated again. Freedom of speech, the right to exchange ideas, is essential to a democracy. Without freedom of speech, without people being in a position to express their thoughts openly and to hear the views of others, then democracy cannot thrive. Any move by the Minister to remove control over the media in that respect is to be welcomed. It was one of the objections to the introduction of democracy in the early ages that the masses would not be sufficiently educated, they would not have sufficient understanding of the problems confronting a nation, to be able to elect a government that could effectively deal with these problems, or indeed to elect representatives who would be able to express their views in parliament.

For that reason in a State where democratic principles are highly treasured by the vast majority of the people, it is of the utmost importance that the people within the State be afforded every opportunity to have freedom of expression to exchange their views, to have a free press, and, as far as is possible, to have a free radio and television service. It should be the function of the press, the radio and television services to see to it that in the matter they present to the people there is content that will educate the people and make them better informed and more aware of the problems that confront them. In so far as the Minister is giving more authority, more autonomy to the RTE Authority, he is taking a stride forward towards having greater freedom of expression and greater freedom of presentation. It would be right, I suppose, to say that the Minister's approach to that is something akin to the idea expressed by Lincoln when he said: "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master".

I do not agree with Senator Quinlan that it was right to think that a Minister should pass on more power to the authority and in cases where it is necessary to deal with the authority that it should be done by both Houses of Parliament rather than by the Minister himself. I do not think that arises at all from any fear on the part of any Minister to take the necessary action if the RTE Authority overstep the limits. I think the motive behind the Minister's suggestion is that he wants it plainly and clearly to be seen by the general public that if a person or the authority are adjudged to have done wrong or to have gone too far in some way, or perhaps not far enough, they are dealt with not just by the political head of a Department, who may have his own personal axe to grind, who may have a prejudiced view on a particular issue, but by the elected representatives of the people acting in the name of the people. That is the spirit that prompted the Minister to suggest these changes, and it certainly does not arise from any fear or any dread of doing what he might feel should be done in certain circumstances.

Democracy, as I have said, depends on people being well informed. Democracy itseslf had its birth in Athens among people who were probably by far the most advanced on earth at the time, people who had for some time before that developed the idea of thinking in terms of their community. It had its birth there, it struggled on for a while, and then died off. Democracy in its history has had several births and several deaths. Take the case of an attempt at setting up a democracy in Russia. It survived for less than a year, probably because the Russian people at that time, whatever about now, must have been among the most backward people in Europe. The standard of education was so low and the amount of illiteracy so great that it was only to be expected that democracy could not survive. In France the first attempt to set up a democracy was in 1789. It took 100 years to get democracy properly established. In parts of the world in recent years where people, for their own ends and for their own reasons, have wanted to upset democracy and set up autocracies of different kinds, the first aim was to muzzle the press and to take control of the radio. All of this goes to show that for the survival and the progressive growth and development of democracy it is a good thing to have freedom of expression, a free press, a free radio and a free television free to put views to the people.

Unfortunately, there are limits. In the most desirable state of society, if everybody had sufficient education, if everybody was trained to be critical and analytical about what was presented to him, if everybody had the time to examine critically, analytically and objectively a newspaper article or a feature on television or on radio, and if necessary be in a position to check up on the details presented, and be able to say whether the presenter would have some vested interest, whether there was some reason why he presented it in this way rather than in another way, then the need for any control would become less and less. As education advances and people become better informed, the day may come when almost all these controls could be relaxed. In the circumstances that prevail at the present time some degree of control is necessary. The Minister has shed some of his authority; he preserves control in the hands of the Legislature, and that is a wise precaution. Prudence and a sense of responsibility would demand that something of that nature be done.

With regard to the functions of a broadcasting authority, whether it be for sound or vision, there is no doubt that it is the duty of the people charged with the responsibility to see that items are presented in a balanced and objective way. It is one of the weaknessses of democracy that the majority in a democracy are a fair target for all kinds of attack from minorities, and because they are in the majority they are inclined to tolerate it. Senator Quinlan dealt with that point for a while and talked about observations made against the leader of a big section of the community in Cork, whereas observation of the same kind against a leader of a minority group would be resented. That is a fact. In the present day, in democratic states especially, majority groups are subject to attacks from minority groups and they do not always take effective action to stop it. They believe that it is one of the reasons for proving that democracy is such a good system, that it can withstand these attacks.

At the same time, I do not believe that a national radio and television system should give undue prominence to the views of minority groups. Minority groups are entitled to their representation and to their share of time. Nobody doubts that, but undue coverage of the viewpoints of certain small pressure groups, or whatever you wish to call them, is not to be welcomed and it certainly does no good.

Democracy has been undermined in the past by misrepresentations and so on. It is prudent and responsible to ensure that there is some control and that it should be exercised by the Houses of the Oireachtas rather than by an individual Minister.

We come to a controversial part of the Bill, the proposal about a second channel. There are views for and against it. It is a widely-held view that it would be wrong to give a second channel over entirely to the BBC. Before coming to that aspect of it, I wish to make a few remarks with regard to RTE and UTV.

The Minister mentioned, in his speech, firstly, that section 13 is intended to reflect a considerably wider consensus based on the growing recognition of the diverse interests and concerns of the people of Ireland, and, secondly, the paramount need for peace and understanding. If we take these together, I believe that before we give any thought whatever to instituting programmes from without, we should give a good deal of thought to programmes from within the country. I do not know whether it is widely realised by people in the South that there are large areas of Northern Ireland where they do not get even RTE sound, not to mention television. Take the town of Dungannon, which is near enough to being in the centre of Northern Ireland, I know that it is with the greatest difficulty that RTE sound is received in areas around the town of Dungannon. Further north to Derry and the northern part of Antrim the people are not within reach of RTE sound or vision.

It is important that we should have a sound and vision service that can reach all parts of the Thirty-two Counties. Furthermore, it would be a good thing for the people of this country as a whole if we did have an opportunity of seeing some or all of the UTV-produced programmes. I agree with the Minister when he says that it is for the good of the people that we have a better understanding of other peoples. I am certain that the Minister agrees with me when I say that it is good for this country that the various sections of people in it have a fuller and better understanding of each other. It would be good if we could understand the mentality, outlook and traditions of the people in Northern Ireland, whether they be Loyalists or otherwise. If we are ever to come together we must first understand each other. That does not mean that I am in dread of the day when the Loyalists would be able to get their views across to me and to get me so fully indoctrinated with their point of view that I might become a Loyalist. But if I understood them better and they understood me, there would be a better chance of our living together.

In addition to a territorial boundary stretching across from Dundalk, cutting off Donegal from Tyrone and Derry, we have a cultural and educational barrier. There is no doubt that in the North of Ireland it has been designed to keep us separated. If RTE sound and vision can do something to promote a better understanding on this side of the people in the North and of their views, and if the people there understand our views and beliefs, what we cherish and so on, there is some hope then of our coming together.

A good deal is said in different contexts about the situation that prevails in Northern Ireland. In Switzerland, one of the most democratic countries on earth, we have people of different religious beliefs so intensely held that there were two civil wars on the question of religion in the history of the country. There were people with different traditions and languages but a democracy was able to bind them together and keep them together. They came to the conclusion that each could make allowances for the other's beliefs and decided it was better that they should live together in harmony than tear each other apart in acrimony.

I am convinced that it should be the aim of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to so arrange things that there would be greater interchange between RTE and UTV so that we all have a better understanding of each other. It should be the aim to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland can receive RTE sound broadcasts and television. When that was attained programmes from outside could then be introduced. I would not suggest that BBC 1 should be taken over in its entirety and transmitted by RTE. I live in a part of the country which receives the four channels, RTE, BBC 1 and 2 and UTV. There are some excellent programmes on BBC 1. These programmes could do a lot of good educationally and otherwise. But there are others which could be classed as drivel and others still whose main value would be propaganda. I do not believe that that is the sort of programme the Minister wishes us to spend our time watching.

Business suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

At the time of the lunch break I was dealing with what I consider the most controversial point of the Minister's proposal, that is, the question regarding BBC and another channel. It has been said by a number of Senators already that, with the amount of money at their disposal, technical skill and so on, the BBC might be likely to monopolise the entire thing. That has been dealt with rather fully by those who spoke before me and I do not intend to go into it in great detail except to take one single example.

On a Saturday night the BBC feature a programme called "Match of the Day" in which they pick one of the association football games played in England on that day. I have a grownup family, all of whom play games— the boys, football and the girls, camogie —but they are so captivated by this programme that it is their preference for the night. It is competing with a programme called "The Late Late Show" which, for some reason or another I could never clearly understand, has a good deal of appeal for people who have no choice. Let us put it that way. Because of technical skill made available by the much greater means at their disposal, the BBC can present a programme that will compete more than favourably for viewers than any programme we can put on.

That situation has to be examined with great care. At the same time I do not want it to be thought that I am one of those who believe that we cannot do anything well in this country. I should like to remind the House that on several occasions films produced in this country have won awards in European competitions. This would indicate that we have the ability to produce good stuff if we have the means. The standard of the Abbey players in the field of drama is so lush that they could compete successfully with rivals no matter where they came from or no matter what means were at their disposal.

We have to take it in this context that, because of technical superiority and because of the glamour that that evokes, we might become second class. I am a GAA man but not so narrow-minded that I would object to people who follow soccer football or rugby football having their time on television, too. The fact is that, whether we like to admit it or not, the BBC, because of their technical skills, can glamorise soccer football to a degree much greater than RTE have ever been able to do for Gaelic football or for what is universally regarded as the greatest team game in the world, hurling. We have never, through the medium of RTE television, been able even to come near attaching the same glamour to an all-Ireland hurling final as can be attached by the BBC to a game played, say, between Leeds and Manchester City or Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur.

In the eyes of the civilised world we have been presented in the past number of years by the various sound broadcasting and television units in different parts of the world as nothing short of being a barbaric nation. Some time ago I was in the United States and I was astonished at the remarks made by people there about the image of us being presented. Because of the behaviour of a small minority of the people here we are being regarded as an uncivilised, palaeolithic race of people with no standards of humanity, not to mention Christianity.

The Minister examined what RTE can do for us at home with regard to the North of Ireland, to our understanding the position that prevails there and to their understanding of the position that prevails here. Perhaps we can do something to get the people of Britain to understand our outlook and to realise that we are not the type of savage that we are being represented as on account of the behaviour of the few. It is equally necessary that RTE, both sound and vision, should be used to indicate to Irish emigrants abroad that they are serving no useful purpose whatever by contributing sums of money to propagating that type of carry on.

With regard to UTV, if we exchange our programmes and if we sometimes saw people on the 12th July hammering drums until their knuckles bled and if we were inclined to regard them as some sort of savages, it would not do any harm for us to know that we have here monuments erected in public places to people who did their utmost to upset this State since it was founded. We have, in Cavan, a monument in the courthouse erected to the memory of people who fought for freedom. We have people who did their utmost through the medium of the gun to upset the democratic institutions of this State and they are honoured equally with those who fought to get rid of the despots from overseas.

I am convinced it is an absolute necessity that television and sound broadcasting should be used to have a greater understanding between us and the people of Northern Ireland in the first place and, secondly, between the people of Northern Ireland and us. The Minister is at pains to point out that he wants a greater understanding between us and the people of other countries. I am all for that. I commend the Minister on it but as I said earlier today, charity begins at home. We must first understand other people in our own island and they must understand us.

Regarding the understanding of the practices, traditions, customs, beliefs and principles of peoples from outside countries, the least likely ground of success is between us and Britain. This is because of the history of the country and because of our understanding that Britain tried to dominate us for so long. There could be a good deal of common ground between us and, say, the French. For reasons that might not altogether have been for our benefit the French, in the history of this country, came to our aid in the past. That might not have been for the great motives that we are led to believe.

People who have only a cursory knowledge of history may think it was pure love of the Irish people which prompted France to come to our aid or to attempt to come to our aid on several occasions. France might have had other ideals and other objectives in coming to our aid because the country that was their enemy at the time also happened to be our enemy then. Tradition in this country believes that we are closely allied to France and in many ways we must admit that France was a help to us in the past. For that reason it would be more likely that a campaign to give us an understanding of life in France and in other EEC countries would be more beneficial. I would ask the Minister to give more thought to inducing RTE to develop a greater understanding between us and the various nations of the European Economic Community. He could start off with a good deal of goodwill.

I am not opposed to every programme televised by BBC. There are numerous programmes on BBC which would be well received here and which would do a good deal of good. I live in an multi-channel viewing area. There are definitely programmes on these channels which would be of value to us. I do not wish to engage in commercials for those who run any programme but I should like those who are opposed to such a programme as "Tomorrow's World" to tell me why they are so opposed. This programme deals entirely with technical advances and is free from any sort of propaganda or bias. Perhaps those who rule out the idea of the BBC would make some comment on why they would oppose a programme of that kind. It is a programme which would do a great deal of good in opening up the minds of our young people to developments in technical skills and so on.

As a teacher I am captivated by, when I get time to see them, the BBC education programmes. These are excellent and are professionally presented. We have here the General Secretary of the INTO, Senator Brosnahan, and I should like to hear his views on these programmes. The presentation of subjects that do not contain any element whatever of propaganda would do good.

There are other programmes that are equally good but there are BBC programmes that no responsible person would want to see shown to the family unit. There are some programmes on BBC, apart from this question of British propaganda, that would not be conducive to proper living, but it would be to the betterment of the people of this country if everybody had an opportunity of seeing those that are good.

I should like to be assured that the people of Britain would have an opportunity of seeing some of the best of our programmes and that there would be reciprocity in this, that we would not take it for granted that because of greater population or greater wealth and perhaps greater technical skill, everything they wanted to present to us would be taken while anything we might think should be presented to them would not be taken.

There is a huge Irish population in Britain. I agree with those who say that when Irish people go to live in Britain or in the United States or Canada they should become good citizens of the state which gives them employment and affords them a livelihood. It would not be correct for Irish people to go and seek a living in Britain, at a time when this country was not in a position to afford them a living, and on arriving in Britain to set about wrecking the state that provided them with a living. I am not in agreement with that line of thought at all.

I should like to be assured that people of Irish origin who have attachments to the homeland would be afforded the opportunity of seeing the best we can provide in the nature of sport, dramatics and so on. There are thousands of Irish people in Britain who would like to hear GAA results on a Sunday night. I dealt already today with the fact that there are large areas in Northern Ireland where they cannot hear RTE sound and have no chance at all of RTE vision.

I do not think it would make an Irishman in Britain anything less worthy of being entitled to live there if he was kept in close touch with what is going on at home. I would ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs when he is establishing the second channel not to spare himself in his efforts to see that there would be a certain reciprocity between the two countries.

I am in agreement with the concept of local television as envisaged in the Bill. It was stated here today that there are times when, for example, an Ulster GAA final happens to be played on the same day as a Munster GAA final and when people in the northern part of the country wish to know how the games are going between Cavan and Down and between Cork and Tipperary. RTE should make every effort to corner both games. On a more parochial level, it would do a great deal of good towards community development if we had a system that provided a television service for something that was purely local in the rather restricted term of the word.

To sum up my views with regard to the second channel, I think it would be a great mistake to take BBC 1in toto. There should be a certain amount of interchange, of reciprocity. The Minister should look into this. I am not convinced that it is the intention of a man of the Minister's experience, ability and intellect, to put BBC 1 over to us in a take it or leave it manner. I should like to hear the Minister's views on this. There are great possibilities for the development of a second channel but it must not necessarily be BBC 1 or even BBC 2, which is the high-class one. It could be part of each. Above all, the second channel should be used to give us a greater understanding of conditions which prevail in Northern Ireland. The agreement made with these people should give them a greater understanding of seeing the conditions that prevail here.

I live close to the Border and I am convinced that there are vast numbers of people in Northern Ireland, so indoctrinated at meetings in the lodge and places of that kind, that they believe the old age slogan that "Home Rule is Rome Rule." I think RTE have a function to play in getting it across to the people in Northern Ireland that the religious minority in this country are treated with the maximum fairness that a man's religious belief here does not impair or prevent his advancement. If RTE succeeded in getting that across to the people of Northern Ireland, they would be fulfilling a very useful role and doing a great national service.

I agree with Senator Quinlan that some of the programmes presented by RTE lack balance. It was only the other day coming here with Senator McCartin, that we read, after the news bulletin, a fellow who in my opinion represents nobody only himself being interviewed at great length as to what he thought about this suggestion and that suggestion. This is all wrong. Why should RTE interview some man from any part of Ireland who represents nobody but himself and have the interview broadcast into thousands of our homes? If this fellow went up in a local government, an assembly or a Dáil Éireann election, I do not believe he would get a handful of votes. However, somebody in RTE thinks it is right to have this crank's views.

The views of the lunatic fringe are being put across too much. People are led to believe that these people represent somebody while, in my opinion, they represent nobody but themselves. I am not sure of the purity of their motives. I believe that is a very serious mistake, that it gives these people an importance that they do not deserve.

We know well that something like that goes on in the press but the press is in a different position. If they continue to present idiotic views to people, the people will cease to buy the paper and it goes out of production. But there are people in the press —I would not like to see it happening in radio or in television—who believe that because they get an appointment or are allowed to fill a column in a newspaper, they are in a privileged position and have the right to put their views across irrespective of what the public reaction is. The divine right of kings is gone and substituted for it we have the divine right of the columnist. He believes that whether it is the view held by the vast majority of the people or not his view is the one that is to be taken by the people and the people are to be indoctrinated with it. I do not believe in that.

I believe that time will deal with the people who express these views. The circulation could drop and somebody in a key position must say: "This fellow is putting the wrong stuff across." Then he is dealt with. RTE should be in the same position. Therefore, the Minister has reserved the right—not to himself but to the Oireachtas—to deal with people who put the wrong kind of view across. These people who set themselves up as an authority on political affairs, on national affairs, economic or social matters, regard themselves as the last word, and when they speak ex cathedra the matter is settled. If these people came out and submitted their views to the electorate I believe they would lose their deposits. Just because they occupy certain positions they should not be entitled unduly to influence public opinion. We have no control over what newspapers do —the public will control that—but we reserve some control over what is done by the broadcasting media, television and sound.

I believe that the Minister is a man of liberal outlook and because of that he is shedding the power whereby a Minister can sack the whole lot, as was done during the regime of the last Government. He is shedding that power and I am glad to see that. But he still retains it, to a certain degree, so that if these people step across the line too far the Houses of the Oireachtas can deal with them. That is democratically and fundamentally sound. Under the democratic system the Members of the Oireachtas are the elected representatives of the people, they represent the people and they are in a position to express the views of the people who elected them. For that reason they should have some control.

As time goes on and people become more educated in the processes of government and in the processes of critical and analytical examination of the propaganda that is presented to them, there will be less need for control. Whether we like it or not, it does not do the slightest harm to admit that everybody is to some degree a propagandist, whether he be a preacher, a teacher or a politician or whatever he is. Because so many people are gullible to a certain extent they might take for granted what comes across through the media. Therefore, it is necessary to retain some control. In conclusion, I want to say that on the broad, general principles of the Bill introduced by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I am all on his side, with the few reservations I have already indicated.

Ba mhaith liom cupla focal a rá ar an mBille seo. An polasaí atá sa Bhille seo, athchraoladh BBC 1 ar fud na tíre i gcoimhlint le RTÉ, sé toradh a bheidh leis ná deireadh a chur le RTÉ mar teilifís náisiúnta na tíre seo agus an BBC agus lucht an rachmais a chur i réim mar phriomh sheirbhís na tíre.

Ar an dara dul síos is dóigh liom go gcuideoidh sé le galldú na tíre seo. Tá bealach eile chun an dara channel a chur ar fáil ar fud na tíre. Sé mo thuairim gur cheart cláracha reigiúneacha Gaeilge a bheith againn, clarácha eile ón Eoraip agus na cláracha is fearr ó BBC agus na stáisiúin eile i Sasana agus sa Tuaisceart.

Faoi láthair níl ach praiseach sna cláracha stánaithe atá ag teacht ó Shasana agus ó Mheiriceá—an chuid is mó díobh. Pé rud a dhéanfaimid ba cheart dúinn smacht a choimeád ar aer na tíre seo i gcursaí teilifíse. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil dearmad á dhéanamh ag lucht na teilifíse maidir leis an Gaeilge. Níl ach 2.2 faoin gcéad tugtha don teangan agus do chursai na Gaeilge sna cláracha teilifíse.

A great clamour is being raised about air pollution, water pollution and material pollution, but very little is being said about mental pollution. This is the first chance we in the Seanad have had of speaking about mental pollution. It is time the Government had a far more serious look at what is being done in the line of mental pollution by television from all places, even from our own television station.

Senator Quinlan, I think, spoke about the pollution of violence. There is also pollution in the glamorisation of drink. There is also pollution in the exploitation of women on advertising programmes. With all the Women's Lib agitation that we have they are not taking Telefís Éireann to task for exploiting women in their programmes.

Charity begins at home. If we have money to expend on television I think that it should be spent at home. We should proceed by giving ourselves first-class Irish television before we pass on to fresh fields and pastures new. This Irish television should provide entertainment, cultural and informative programmes, home-produced. We must admit that we are getting less home-produced programmes as time goes on. The programmes should be uplifting—too many of them are not—and should uphold the standards that we hold dear and which our people have fought for down through the years, our cultural standards, our national standards and our spiritual standards. I think Senator O'Higgins was right when he spoke about democratic standards. Senator Quinlan referred to the standards of the Constitution. Until we think we can have a better Constitution to supersede the one we have today I think that whatever we portray on our Irish television should uphold the standards of our Constitution and our Christian standards. As Senator Yeats has said, our cultural standards have been far too much neglected.

For hundreds of years we have fought to control our own land and our own destiny. Handing over the air waves of Ireland is far more serious. As Senator Robinson has said, it is a very serious thing: we should think twice before we completely hand over the air waves to any foreign power whose philosophy, ethics and ideology we do not accept. It is most important that we keep control in this field and that we do not give unlimited access to either BBC or any foreign television station. We kept the invader at bay in spite of great difficulties, and are we now going to open our homes to all these foreign influences? Senator Robinson was right: we should take the cream of the other stations; only the best is good enough for our people. I was appalled to hear Senator Halligan say that the people of Ireland do not want the cream, that they only want the skim milk. That is an insult to the people of Ireland. If we had a choice and the people of Ireland were given a referendum, they would opt for the cream and not the skim milk—the rubbish that is being pumped into our homes.

I must reprimand Irish television for giving our Irish language only 2.2 per cent of the viewing time and that at the low peak period. I thought that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was going to open a great golden age for the Irish language when with great éclat he opened Dún Chaoin. But we still have not seen the result of his great interest in the Irish language on Telefís Éireann nor has he got his message across to Telefís Éireann.

We should not have unlimited dumping of any kind of programme in this country and should oppose the complete rebroadcasting of BBC 1. We should, as a body, stand for only the best of all programmes. Even though we are members of the Common Market we still have not opened our air waves to European television. There, we have different cultures and different languages. By getting the best of their programmes televised here we would awaken in our own people a respect for their own individuality, for their own nationality and for their own language. I cannot see this coming about by willy-nilly broadcasting of BBC 1.

From this idea of broadcasting BBC 1 without any control at all, it seems that the Minister wants complete assimilation between the Irish and the English people. BBC 1 is aimed at catering for the beliefs and philosophies of English people. This is not what we would want for our people. I hope that Senator Robinson's view, Senator Quinlan's view and my own view with that of Senator O'Brien will be taken seriously by the Minister.

Section 2 removes the responsibility from the Minister. This is a bit of eyewash because if the matter is put before the Dáil and Seanad there is no doubt that the party in power will go according to the views of the Minister. So, it goes back to the Minister again and it is the Minister who will take the decision.

Many people have referred to impartial broadcasting. I believe, with many of the Senators, that we have not impartial broadcasting. It is very unbalanced in religious programmes, political programmes and many other programmes as well. As Senator O'Brien said, there are too many people setting themselves up as authorities in education, authorities in religion and authorities in different fields. If they went before the electors they would not even be elected to the local community council.

In section 3 we have this debatable point about incitement to disorder. I remember listening to the then Opposition in this House getting a decision on what was "to incite". Between dictionaries and so on I thought we would never see the end of it. I thought the word "incite" was anathema to the Opposition. We have it here again and I am surprised they are so concerned about it when they wanted to rule it out of Fianna Fáil legislation in section 31. After all, section 31 has been just the same as the Criminal Justice Bill: it has done a great service to the country.

Just as the Criminal Justice Bill is being worked by the present Government, I think they are bringing in section 31 now under a different guise in section 16. Many people have spoken about section 4 on complaints. I would not quibble like Senator Quinlan about that. It may prove successful. It may be much better than all the phone calls to Telefís Éireann and all the letters in the papers. It should be given a trial. After all, there is no reason why it should not be scrapped if it does not prove successful. But we would want a guarantee that we would have an impartial jury when these complaints are being looked into.

Section 6 is also a bit of eyewash. It pretends to facilitate open broadcasting, but I am told that legally and technically this cannot be done. As Senator O'Brien said, what assurance is there that we will get our television programmes beamed into Northern Ireland? What has been done to see that they will be beamed into Northern Ireland, any more than we have any guarantee that the Northern Ireland programmes will be beamed down here?

We are told by the liberal people that the whole eastern coast has got all the programmes residents there want—three British channels and UTV —and that they are none the worse for it. But if they have, it is not by the choice of the Government; it is not by the choice of the Dáil or Seanad that these programmes are entering the homes of the east coast of Ireland. It is just a spillover with a technical explanation. That does not enter into the question at all. Anyway, we would all be delighted to get a second channel if we got decent programmes.

Section 13 provides that national values should be upheld and that our Irish language should get a place in the scene. While on section 13, this debate should not omit complimenting the many programmes like "Amuigh Faoin Spéir", "Cois Tine", "Féach", Liam Ó Murchú's "Agallamh" and the Comhaltas Ceoltóirí programmes.

I cannot understand why James White's programmes on our National Gallery were dropped. There are thousands of people who will never be able to see the treasures we have in our National Gallery and in National Museum. I cannot understand why the programme on Irish folklore was dropped. We have a Folklore Commission in Stephen's Green with a wealth of knowledge. We have civic programmes in our schools and I cannot see why television is not used to get this wealth of knowledge relayed in regional programmes to these areas. That is what I would like a second channel to do.

The country is full of Irish talent. One has only to look at "Siamsa" in Kerry to see how it grew from a tiny seed. It has even been recognised on the Continent where it won international awards. The country is teeming with material and until we have harvested that material I do not think we should be inflicting BBC 1 on the people.

Senator Yeats dealt sufficiently with section 15. The only difference between it and section 31 is that it may be suspended within 12 months. As regards section 17, which deals with the regulation of local programmes for distribution on the cable system, I think we need to be more selective in our viewing. This is where our schools could play a great part. I would like to have a television set installed in every school. It is an educational aid. In conjunction with the educational programme our children should be taught to be selective. Television should not be used as a means of keeping children quiet. The freedom of our air waves should not be open to all comers. Vigilance is the price of freedom. There are philosophies and ideals in other countries with which we do not agree. We have a duty to protect our young people from these philosophies.

To use Senator Robinson's words "only the cream is good enough". We will not accept skim milk from any Government. We will fight this until we are assured that a second channel will be provided which will select the best programmes from Europe. Any money we have to spend should be spent on improving RTE.

The Minister in his opening speech placed an onus on this House. Members have been asking for quite some time that this House be treated as an assembly where matters such as this Bill would be debated in such manner as to make a positive contribution to the fundamental philosophy underlying our national approach to such basic ideas as democracy and freedom. He has done this House a service in asking us for our views on these questions. He has invited a dialogue rather than a confrontation between the different elements on fundamental issues raised by this legislation. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the solutions offered, the Minister deserves our thanks for raising the questions in the first instance.

Before discussing which forms a second channel should take we should first discuss the relationship between the various elements which make up the national broadcasting service. The Minister has pointed out the complexities involved in the relationship. He has asked us to consider the relationship between the Government of the day and the broadcasting authority. The proposed checks and balances which will be built into the proposed legislation is an advance on the now famous section 31 of the existing Act. I am confused by the Minister's statement to the effect that normally the Authority would be left to apply this new provision independently, but because the Government responsible to Parliament must retain the final say in the difficult and sensitive area of the security of the State it is proposed to retain, while modifying, the power to issue directions.

This is the section which prohibits the authority from broadcasting or publishing any matter likely to promote or incite to crime or lead to disorder. How would this section operate in practice? If the authority are to be allowed to apply this new provision independently and in applying their new-found independence in good faith in the case of a particular programme they find subsequently that the Government or the Minister disapproved of the same programme, will the programme not have already gone out on the air?

In common with other Senators I am worried about the wording of the section prohibiting the broadcasting of matter likely to promote or incite to crime or lead to disorder. I feel that the term "or lead to disorder" is far to wide. It could be abused. It would be up to the Minister to define "disorder". It could embrace almost any activity—fishermen's blockades, sit-in strikes and so on—and if some terminology of general acceptance could not be found I would urge the Minister to delete the reference to disorder completely.

Coming from an area where single channel viewing exists and having had numerous requests during the year from individuals and groups to pressurise the Minister to introduce multi-channel facilities or a second channel, I believe there is a great misunderstanding of the views of those who live outside the present multi-channel area. It is undeniable that the overwhelming mass of the people who live outside the present multi-channel area want a choice. They feel they are getting unfair treatment from RTE.

On a recent "Féach" programme the question of television choice was discussed. The two people interviewed were living within the multi-channel area and both were against giving those of us who live outside a choice. No Irish speaker in favour of having a choice was on the programme. Neither was an Irish speaker from outside the multi-channel area on the programme. Would it not have been possible to have given some balance to the programme? Some Irish speaker who favoured either BBC or a choice could have given his or her views. People living outside a multi-channel area quite justifiably regard these unbalanced programmes with a certain amount of antagonism. They feel they are being used, that they are being treated like children, that their views are being regarded as of no importance by those who wield power in RTE. That may not be the case but to a large number of people it seems that way. "Féach" is regarded as the best Irish programme on RTE. Sufficient thought has not been given to the wishes of the people living in remote areas. It is my belief that a choice would be welcome by these people. I am in favour of anything that would brighten the lives of the people living in rural areas.

The attitude of some people, who now advocate that it is wrong to rebroadcast BBC 1 in its entirety because of the danger to our heritage or because of the power it gives to the country whose programmes are being rebroadcast, is suspect when one thinks that 50 per cent of our people have been receiving multi-channel television for many years. If it is so powerful and so devastating, why have they not been agitating through the years for some method to prevent those signals coming into our country. Instead, they were remarkably quiet. When it was discovered that areas in Dublin were unable to get multi-channel TV, RTE Relays piped it into homes in the multi-channel area. I ask Senators if this was an accident? Was it not a deliberate piping-in of the television which, according to some Senators, is so destructive to people in the rest of the country?

We hear a great deal of talk about selectivity and the fact that people are entitled to the cream. People should ask themselves "Who decides what is the cream?" Who is going to make the decision for the people outside the multi-channel area? Will it be those living in the multi-channel area who already have four or five choices? We have to face the fact that technological developments in the next few years in broadcasting and receiving will make available, whether we like it or not, multi-channel viewing. It is also right that assurances should be got from the Minister in regard to employment in RTE, and to ensure that finance is available to raise the standards in RTE. RTE workers could produce TV material which would find buyers on the international market.

Section 2 deals with the removal from office of members of the Authority only by a resolution from both Houses of the Oireachtas. I welcome this. In most democratic countries there is constant tension between the media and the Government. In recent years an unhappy relationship built up here and I hope this section may ease that tension. As to the Authority themselves, I hope the Minister will ensure from all workers employed in RTE, a higher percentage of members to sit on the Authority.

Section 4 deals with objectivity and impartiality. I would take issue with the Minister regarding balance. I agree with other Senators who said that such balance would not be achieved by having a programme tonight and another programme tomorrow night. It is my experience that, having seen one programme, normally people who are not really interested in the question at issue would not take the same interest on the second night. Therefore, I do not believe that we would have a proper balance by having one programme now and another one later.

The Minister should continue to endeavour to have BBC or UTV beamed into this part of the country. He should also make every effort to ensure, if possible, that RTE would be beamed into the North. Such an arrangement would be helpful in the present situation and I hope this may yet come about. Once more I thank the Minister for giving us an opportunity of speaking on this Bill and for his introductory speech.

I should like to pick up one point made by Senator Cáit Uí Eachthéirn and mentioned by one or two other Senators, notably Senator Andy O'Brien. It is an extraordinary commentary on the manner in which we have handled communication since its inception within the State, that since the foundation of Telefís Éireann great areas of Northern Ireland cannot receive our signals. The failure to make our television and radio nationwide, in the sense of the aspiration enshrined in the Constitution, is surely an extraordinary commentary on the sincerity of that aspiration.

When Senator Uí Eachthéirn was speaking I was vividly brought back to a moment when I was on holiday with my family down in Ballymoney in July, 1970. Many people will recall that the then Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, made a speech addressed to England, Ireland and Northern Ireland. He said some extremely salutary things, things which could have been reassuring to the majority in the North. He said this whole unhappy situation is like a marriage quarrel. He went on to say that it was for political leaders to govern wisely and justly and he accepted the guarantee from the British Government that they would do so. He said that his Government would be a second guarantor. He spoke reassuringly to three particular interests. What struck me as being extremely plaintive, down there in Ballymoney, was the fact that that speech could not be heard in most of Northern Ireland. He was talking to himself, as far as the entity which is gestured at in the Constitution is concerned. The sooner that is remedied the better. It is of crucial importance and casts a light of the coldest irony over our history of 50 or more years since the founding of the State.

The tone of the debate so far has been depressingly cautionary. This is accounted for, to some extent, by the Bill itself. One of the things missing from the debate, which has been full of insight, relevance and intelligence, is that not one Senator said that what we need is a great television and radio service. The entire debate has been cautionary—we must avoid this extreme, we must avoid that extreme, we must have checks, we must have balances, we must not trust people to express their views, and so forth. In other words, what we have been producing within the chamber is the kind of rhetoric that must fall like lead and wet blankets on the ears of the communicators. These men devote their lives to communication. They work through the heat of the day and the night to get programmes together. When sufficiently motivated and commended for their efforts they have produced some extraordinarily relevant and powerful programmes.

The tenor of the debate derives to some extent from the tenor of this very cautionary Bill, which has some admirable provisions. It is this emphasis which I would like to try to redress to some very slight degree. Those who have dedicated themselves to that very important vocation might be depressed in the extreme and lose faith in the ministry by listening to this debate. These over-arching points need to be made in this debate and in our response to the Bill and to the challenges to communications we are facing at the moment.

Clearly the Minister, in framing his Bill, had an unenviable task. Anybody framing legislation to govern communication must look for two things. First of all, he wants excellence of service, even though that is not mentioned in the Bill and probably cannot be legislated for.

Secondly, there is the national interest and the public good and, in this case the security of the State. How is one to produce a service in these difficult times which will be on the one hand, vivid, challenging and relevant and, on the other hand, will not be inflammatory and irresponsible?

Then there is the problem of what we consider to be excellence. Excellence can be seen in two ways. First, it is something which has the excitement of adventure, would involve programmes that are inventive, daring, provocative, controversial, vivid, rivetting and would keep the people of Ireland glued to their sets because of the persuasiveness of what is being said and the way it is presented.

Senator Halligan made an exemplary speech. He worked his way through the provisions of the Bill with great thoroughness and conscientiousness. He said something which struck me—again a note of nostalgia—when he referred to Gay O'Brien's camera work in Derry during those historic civil rights marches when the RUC were seen clubbing the civil rights marchers in the street. He said that that camera work changed everybody's concept of Irish politics. In other words, it was brilliant television and heroic camera work for which Gay O'Brien was never properly rewarded. If anybody deserved a Jacob's award it was he. Is that the kind of television we want? Is it too emotive? Are people too immature and unbalanced to receive that kind of vividness? Are we incapable of balancing that kind of vividness with sane and salutary debate and commentary? In other words, I am suggesting one kind of excellence.

There is another kind of excellence, and it is that which this Bill seems to espouse. This is the excellence seen in terms of very conservative language—in other words, balance, stolidity, soundness, respectability. Indeed, it is a set of values which, when seen from a conservative point of view can be seen as excellent, but from a creative point of view can be seen merely as a formula for mediocrity, for the commonplace—the very thing that will make people twiddle the knobs and switch across, if you are living on the east coast, to anything under the sun from "Dad's Army" to "Top of the Pops".

That seems to be a hell of a big problem if you will excuse the unparliamentary interjection of that word—that has not been totally met by the Bill. The positive aspects of the Bill do not seem to be sufficiently compensated for in terms of the challenge required to make a television service anything but a kind of plodding commentary on the most banal, the most safe, the most sound, the most unadventurous. The Minister is clearly aware of this because, as usual, his speech is vivid and eloquent. He has his range of precedents. He quotes Aeschylus:

Neither excess rule nor anarchy That is the mean my townsmen shall observe.

I am not sure that totally espousing the middle ground makes for great television, neither is it the kind of formula that will attract the best spirits to that world of communication. This is a tremendous problem.

Television is renowned as the medium that can bring to us, with extraordinary immediacy and vividness, global news. It is peculiar commentary on our television in recent times that we have falling audiences while at the same time we have on our doorstep, in Northern Ireland and in the Border areas and, indeed, within our own country, one of the most traumatic and vivid experiences available to the media anywhere.

This is a problem, and I do not present it without sympathy. If an Irish viewer, wants to know what is happening in the North of Ireland, he will not hear or see it on RTE. If it is covered by RTE the viewer will get an emasculated and very mottled version. He can turn on his television set any Sunday morning to British Independent Television and hear Mary Holland interviewing Brigadier this and Chief of Staff that, Dáithí Ó Conaill, Seán Mac Stíofáin, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh and Uncle Tom Cobley and all. At home none of this can be heard, because it is not available to us. Is this good? Although I am raising the question, I cannot claim to have the answer. Perhaps this is a case of "Not in front of the children" that we are not mature enough to take it. Is it not possible that if the subversive influence within the society were exposed on television that they would lose a good deal of their glamour and perhaps fade in the light of day? Would this not be an answer? If not, then we are indicting our people for a very large degree of immaturity.

I am sure that indictment is accurate enough, but it must be faced. It is dispiriting for people in the media to see the extraordinary opportunities being offered in the neighbouring island for media men, for the adventurous and creative men of television while they feel constantly shackled by the provisions of this Bill and of the previous Bill.

Recently an extraordinary amount of interest was shown in a series called "A Question of Identity", which employed the most unpromising and unglamorous format for a television programme imaginable — the university professor talking to an audience and being questioned by students afterwards. It was certainly not the kind of formula one would expect to set the Liffey on fire.

Strangely enough, the theories put forward by Gibson, McCartney, Murphy and many others suddenly galvanised people who had not been watching RTE for a long time. They created public controversy in the press of a quality rarely seen and applied to this type of programme.

That conservative format suddenly became very active, interesting and challenging and in many cases rivetting. Why? Because it was dealing with some of the most central concerns in the Irish identity. It was dealing with topics which had been banned from the screen because of censorship, just or unjust, applied with regard to the treatment of the current political situation.

My argument is that this Bill leans too heavily on the side of conservatism and on the side of censorship. It gives far too little scope to the makers of programmes and puts too little trust in them. Ultimately, it tends to show a certain mistrust in the intelligence of the Irish viewing and listening audience.

On the other hand, I am not saying it is an easy matter. Very briefly, because at this Stage of the Bill I think one should not go into detail. I want to indicate in a general way, linking what I have to say to one or two of the provisions of the Bill where I think the Bill is good and bad. Obviously section 2 is excellent. Nobody can fail to applaud the fact that a Minister, with the use of his telephone, can no longer intrude summarily and bring things to a halt. I do not agree with Senator Uí Eachthéirn when she says that the Government have the majority in the two Houses, so it does not matter. It does matter, because it will be debated in the two Houses. In that way it is brought before the entire population. That seems to be a good arrangement.

I am afraid of the phrase "impartial". The BBC do not use it. ITA uses the words in section 3—"reported and presented in an objective and impartial manner". Impartiality is almost impossible to define. It could expose all kinds of people in the media to threats of libel. As far as I can judge, it would expose them to legal difficulties. However, I should like to hear the Minister on this. In my view, it would be sufficient to say "without any expression of the Authority's own views" because impartiality is extremely difficult to define. So is the word "disorder", which has come under assault and battery from all sides of the House. It is the kind of word that anybody could drive a coach and four through, if not an armed juggernaut. I think "crime" or "anything likely to promote or incite to crime" would be sufficient. "Disorder" is a wide word and an unsatisfactory word.

In section 3 (1C) the Authority are prohibited from unreasonably intruding on the privacy of any individual. I have heard on the grapevine that it was the Authority who requested this. They are having a lot of trouble with this in England at the moment. On Committee Stage I should like to challenge this very strenuously, because the notion of the invasion of the privacy of an individual is almost impossible of definition. If the Minister turned a camera on a man and he said something he did not want reported, and it was reported, is that an invasion of privacy? There are hundreds of ways in which privacy can be invaded. We have done very well without that clause up to now. The invading of privacy I have seen, was of a ludicrous kind and did not seem to bother people—for example, comperes ringing up housewives in their homes and getting them to engage in ridiculous conversation without realising they are talking to somebody on the air. That seems to me an invasion of privacy but the people chosen do not seem to be particularly sensitive about their privacy and on the whole seem to be flattered by the attention. There are other areas in which that could be an extremely difficult provision. I ask the Minister to reconsider it. I intend to put down an amendment on Committee Stage.

Section 6 has come under very considerable criticism. The arguments have been rehearsed already. I disagree with handing over to any one channel, least of all BBC 1, an entire area of our ethos and consciousness. I want that to go on record. I would be much more interested in the idea put forward by Fr. Joe Dunne in his two Irish Times articles, particularly where he spelled out the logistics of having a station which would choose from the great variety of foreign stations and compose something nearer to our hearts desire and nearer to the quality of Irish life.

Finally, I am very wary of section 13, particularly of the extremely selective wording of paragraph (c)—that the authority would "have regard to the desirability of promoting understanding of the values and traditions of countries other than the State, including in particular the values and traditions of such countries which are members of the European Economic Community." That could turn out to be an albatross around our necks because it could stifle debate on such a matter as renegotiation or withdrawal. It could actually inhibit RTE from having debate on whether it is good or bad to be in the Community. It seems to be extremely selective and exclusive when it does not include the countries of the Third World, for whom we should have a greater tenderness at this moment than for the comparatively affluent countries of the EEC. I see vaguely what is behind it, but I am not a great supporter of the Common Market myself and there are many others who feel the same. That type of sectional bias should not be enshrined in this Bill, particularly as we may find ourselves outside the Community very quickly.

I have been unfair to the Minister because I have not stressed many of the positive aspects of the Bill. It is a Bill which reduces his function with regard to either intervening, chastising or prescribing for the stations. He withdraws from the scene. There are several buffers now between his authority and the authority of the television station itself. This will remove some of the more unseemly possibilities of the direct intervention of the Minister by telephone or otherwise in the day-to-day running of the station.

I believe the media should be left to the people running the media. The BBC have managed extremely well by being given quite large scope and autonomy. There are reserved powers. I recognise that reserved powers in the present Irish situation are fairly ambiguous problems. There is no such thing, at a time of crisis, as totally reserved powers. Any powers the Minister and the Government get under this Bill might be invoked before the President's signature was dry on the measure.

Finally, I want to come back to what I said at the beginning. I feel the Bill is too cautionary and does not provide sufficient incentive or challenge. In so far as it is an amendment, it is an improvement on what it sets out to amend.

I will be very brief because I know there are many other Senators waiting longer than I to say their few words. I congratulate the Minister on his opening speech and especially his reference to the IRA. He said what I would like to have been able to say. I am not as capable as the Minister to say those things. If we had not censorship on television we would have been swamped with IRA propaganda.

We will not satisfy everybody. No matter who gets up to speak, whether it be the Minister or some of the Senators who have studied the Bill, or somebody like myself, we will not satisfy everybody. I have a son who has now a vote. I discussed this with him. He has totally different ideas to mine. I would prefer two Irish television channels. The Minister has met the people of Waterford, Cork, Galway and Limerick and he knows their opinions. They demand open television.

I, too, would prefer to have open television to a single BBC 1 or UTV channel. Again we must take into consideration the cost of having open television. We are a small State. We are at this point in time in a position where we could use our money better than in giving people open television. I would still prefer to have one television channel if we could use the money that we would thereby save to better the livelihoods of the people of Ireland.

There are people who do not like censorship and people who have condemned it before this Bill was introduced but who have now said here they would like censorship. They should make up their minds whether they would like no censorship, censorship to a degree, or complete censorship. We have heard a lot about propaganda. I believe that whether what is said is propaganda depends on what a person makes of it. If he likes what is said, then that is all right; but if the person does not like what is being said, then to that person that is propaganda. It is very, very hard to know what is propaganda and what is not. We are all individuals and we all look at it in different ways.

As I said, I would like open programmes. But again, in a way I am probably conservative. I would like to have open television, but I know I cannot have it. At the same time I would not have any great objection to having a choice of programmes, whether it is two of our own channels or one of our own and a BBC channel because I know myself what I would like.

My children would probably look for a different type of programme. I would listen to their arguments, because this is the way we do our business. If they made a good argument for a programme I would naturally give way to them. If I wanted to see a programme for a certain reason, then I have no doubt my children would give way to me. I know there is not the same setup in every house. Some people believe they are speaking for others. I think every Senator gets up here and speaks for himself or herself first and then probably, having listened to other people, they contribute on their behalf because they believe what those people are saying.

As I said, I spoke to my own family and they said they would like to have a choice of programmes and would like to have programmes that would not be completely Irish. If we had a choice of programmes and if we got the second channel, BBC 1 or UTV. there is no doubt that there is much we would not like, but examining the programmes that we have had on our television, there is much I do not like now. There are some of those programmes which I would not like my children to see. I talk to them about it. If we are going to condemn what we would get from Britain let us also condemn what we see on our own station.

If we had the British channel, the BBC 1 or UTV, then we might be able to regulate our programmes differently. Even though we would have no say in the BBC programme, we could balance our programmes accordingly. That, in my opinion, would give us a better choice. I prefer Irish programmes, educational programmes, but I do not believe we are getting enough of them. No matter what happens, we will not satisfy everybody. The Minister will be condemned if he gives us BBC 1 and he will be condemned if he does not give us BBC 1.

It is all right for people who have multi-channel television. I happen to be living in South Tipperary and I have not multi-channel television. I do not believe I can get it for many years even if Waterford, Limerick, Galway or Cork get it. Those people who are looking for multi-channel television are the people who feel they need it. But those people who have multi-channel television are the people who are standing up here condemning BBC 1. They have BBC 1 and they know what is there. The only time I see BBC 1 is when I come to Dublin and stay in a hotel or when I visit my relations. I like to see BBC 1. I like to see what is going on and what everybody is talking about. We do not get that opportunity in the south of Ireland.

I know of a person here in Dublin who is very much opposed to a second television channel that is not an Irish-controlled channel. I visit that person very often and no night passes that that person does not turn on to BBC 1 or one of the other channels and enjoy looking at it. He selects his programme but he will condemn it if I ask him about it. I have said this to him and he just smiles and says nothing, but tomorrow he will again condemn BBC 1 or UTV.

I would like to know what it is going to cost us financially to provide the second channel or BBC 1. Can we afford them financially? If we can afford one and not the other, then we should take the one we can afford and invest what we would be able to save in secondary education, which investment is much needed now as we all know, or in some other project.

There are a number of programmes I like. I suppose it is no harm to refer to them here. I know Irish only by listening to it. I can speak it very poorly. I did learn Irish when I went to school; I got my leaving certificate, and I had that much Irish. But because of the type of work which I am in and the years that are gone I have lost a lot of that. But there are programmes which I like listening to, Irish programmes, and they have been mentioned here today. One of them especially I can really understand and enjoy used to appear late in the evening. I believe it has gone off now. That is "Gairm". I would wish that some programme of that nature would continue.

Most of the Senators here are middle-aged, and we are speaking of people in their late teens and early twenties. They do not read a lot in those years up to their twenties, but they know more about world affairs than we did when we were 18 to 20 and into our thirties, or than we even know now. They have the opportunity, especially those people who are in the multi-channel area, even though some people say it is propaganda. We should not condemn them for getting that education from other channels. If we think back when we were 20 years and our parents discussed a problem, we could not even talk to them. A youth of today is able to sit down at the fire and talk like his parents, and talk about any subject. He was educated at school and he was further educated by the media—whether television or wireless. He is now staying more at home if there is something to watch. If he gets more of the type of programme that he likes, he will stay at home more often and be with his family more.

I agree totally with what was said about glamorisation and exploitation of women on our programmes. I do not know how we can do anything about it except condemn it here. We cannot do anymore. Those people who are in control of the programmes will put on the programmes they think most people watch.

I hope we will get an opportunity again, in discussing the Bill itself, to compliment the Minister on introducing section 16. I will be here to help him to get that section, at least, passed.

I hope the Minister is gratified by the seriousness with which the proposal for broadcasting has been taken by the Seanad. The level of contribution has been consistently sincere and attempted at all times to be helpful to him in his present responsibility. I wish the Minister had taken his resposibilities half as seriously as the Seanad did, because it seems to me that the Minister has greatly underestimated the magnificent opportunity it gives to him in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

A number of us tended to make fun of the Minister in his early appointment to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—it was not quite what he wanted and so on—because in the past it has not been a very important Department; it nearly always ran itself. What he has done is completely to misjudge the fact that buried at the heart of this very mundane, self-running Department is this wonderful responsibility as Minister for communications and all that that should have implied to him. Unfortunately it seems that he has got bogged down with his rather sordid and ugly squabble with the IRA Provos and his sententious, carping criticism of the journalist profession, who do not happen to share his views on what should or should not be suppressed and censored.

That is a great pity because, with all of the other Senators, I know that the Minister has an intellectual apparatus of a very high quality. Therefore, he should have applied himself to the daunting task of trying to draw up a Bill which would not look as inept and as silly as this Bill will look in 1990. It is a great tribute to the Dáil and Seanad and the then Minister that the last Bill, passed 15 years ago, looks so well. The remarkable thing is that there are so few amendments being introduced by the Minister to that 1960 legislation. There are the concessions that he has made in relation to the dismissal of the authority, but these simply consolidate and re-establish the essence of the censorship implicit in the right of the Minister to intervene as the final arbiter, under the 1960 Act.

A number of Senators who do not share the views of myself and the Minister, as Members of the Labour Party, who are Members of conservative parties and parties of different views, must be surprised at the conservatism of the Bill's proposals. Is there any other science of technology which is advancing at the same rate as the electronic and televisual sciences generally? Pari passu with this development is the enormous expansion and development of the social sciences with which this question of communications, broadcasting, television and radio is inextricably intertwined. The Minister made no reference whatsoever to these because he became bogged down in his squabble with the IRA and the whole idea of the effect of television in the promotion of the ideals of the IRA.

I regret that he showed the same fear of the public, of the expanding understanding, the growing literacy, the increase in understanding and education of the vast mass of people, as any complete conservative politician of the right or, indeed, of the left, of the so-called socialist states. They are all equally frightened at the prospect of the establishment of a true democratic system of communication. There is a difference between that in the USSR socialist countries and in the western democracies, but neither of them have been prepared to take on the challenge of establishing a seriously democratic televisual, radio and communications system.

This is particularly distressing for myself as a member of the Labour Party with the Minister in the very sensitive Department of communications. He has simply carried on the old paternalist commercial mix, which unfortunately has been dominant in the pattern of our television services. There is the authoritarian of the Soviet Union, the paternalist of the BBC, the commercial of the US, and the democratic, which is practically non-existent except perhaps in Holland. Holland makes a serious attempt to provide for real freedom of the air. It is not afraid of its people. The Minister and the various other Ministers of communications are afraid of democracy.

I was further saddened by the contribution of the Secretary of the Labour Party, Senator Halligan, who endorsed all of the Minister's most obscurantist provisions in his legislation, the need to distrust the public.

As a person who has spent my life in a minority position in public life in Ireland, I could be forgiven for turning on the public and saying: "You are not to be trusted because you do not listen to me or offer me preferment" and so on. I have never considered that for one moment. One of the astonishing things is that when a Minister of State who is one of the 15 or 20 people to whom our nation has handed the final authority to arbitrate on matters of domestic and foreign policy, on determining the pattern of their lives, their living conditions, is trusted with this absolute authority, his reply is this extraordinary type of speech which in toto was a vote of no confidence in the people. They cannot be trusted. They do not have this particular understanding, balance, maturity, education, intelligence and ability to discern the truth from falsehood. This enormous arrogance was supported by Senator Halligan.

The Minister is fond of quoting from the great Greek philosophers to substantiate his plea for democracy. I have never understood why we should have gone back to the Greeks for the ideas of democracy. Plato's Republic was essentially an élitist establishment and the idea of slavery and second-class citizens was to them perfectly acceptable and understandable. If one examines the speech of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, one will find expressed in practically every line of it this essentially insolent assumption of superiority on the part of the élite which must arbitrate for the masses and protect them from their own ignorance. I will quote from a speech by Socrates in Plato's Phaedra in which he was talking about the damage the printed word would do.

It will cause forgetfulness in the learner's souls because they will not use their memories. They will trust to the external written words and they will be tiresome company having the show of wisdom without the reality.

That could be a paragraph out of the Minister's speech about the dangers of journalists misleading the plebs and the television broadcasters' misuse of their opportunities to talk to the masses and to mislead them. The Minister's speech showed an extraordinary level of bland ignorance of the whole process of communication and the dynamics of communication between individuals. Mr. Hardiman, the last Director General, stated the case about broadcasting around which the whole discussion must centre: the question of impact or influence and to what extent is television as dangerous an instrument for influencing people and determining their decisions, life styles and patterns as the Minister makes out.

First, I should like, before discussing that very complex subject in more detail, to defend the television services from the general charge that they have in some way been responsible for a general falling of standards in society.

I am conscious of all the criticisms— of the trite, banal, meretricious, rubbishy, talented, gifted quality of the shows presented on television, a wonderful blend of the best and the worst in intellect, talent, historically, musically, dramatically, debate, discussions, entertainment and humour. But the broad truth is that the standard is particularly uneven. Mass communication, which is directed at a relatively large heterogeneous and anonymous audience, has not depraved standards. When one looks at Victorian times and considers the appalling quality of entertainment, pastimes, standard of living, living conditions, values and outlooks at that time and looks at the marvellous difference, referred to by Senator Butler a few minutes ago, in the youngsters now, one realises the improvements that have come about. Young people of today are marvellously in advance of our time and, certainly, of Victorian times. They have a much greater understanding of literature, theatre and of music in particular. One of the most moving things is to see young people—the pop-group type youngsters—flocking in and standing for hours for the Proms in the Albert Hall in London. They are an infinitely better informed generation and know very much more about the important issues in the world today than we or our predecessors did. The television, bad as it is in many ways, must get a lot of credit for this as must the broadcasters and the people responsible for television.

One of the most interesting aspects of television is this. It being a young medium in communications, what strikes one most is the youth of everybody around. It is their medium, and thank heavens they are using it with the maximum amount of freedom which conservative, reactionary, authoritarian paternalists like the Minister would agree to give them. They do their best in spite of him and people like him who do not like them, who resent them and who envy them their marvellous freedom and wonderful opportunities.

In these bureaucratic societies, both in the East and in the West and particularly in the West, bourgeois society is under seige. It is being backed back all the time to the crush barriers. They are very frightened and worried about it all because broadcasting is not simply a variation of the films. We are not back with Harry Lloyd and Charlie Chaplin. We are not discussing the capacity to censor this or that film, which may take three months, six months or two years to make, as to whether it should or should not be shown. To the bourgeois bureaucratics the terrifying elements in television are its immediacy, its irreverence, its uncaring unconcern for tradition and history and, above all, that it is in the hands of the young. There is no censoring of the television services no matter how hard the Minister tries. He has admitted that the last Minister tried this and they got around it. He went on to say that they would continue to get around it unless the people involved in the medium change. They are not going to change just because he wants them to change, because this is a progress, an evolution towards a totally new society. That is why this Bill is totally irrelevant. It belongs in another age. This was all right between 1960 and 1975. It was a marvellous Bill, I suppose, looking back on it. Between 1960 and 1975 there was a revolution in thinking. One would have to be somebody like myself who has been through all that time—25 years and longer—to know that all the things one could not talk about, hardly think about, could not mention then, are all old hat now. There are very few issues to be fought about now, in a minor sense at any rate. There is a universal continuing national debate about the most unthinkable subjects because the young people will not permit themselves to be muzzled as we were muzzled in my time and as my parents were muzzled in their time, because of the nonsense talked about the free press. There was never mass access to the press by the ordinary people. There is not now either.

The press in the western democracies was never a free press. It was owned, operated and controlled by the wealthy people who could afford to buy it. This is one of the dear illusions of our so-called democracy. Journalists and reporters have to make a living but they must conform to the conventional, conservative pattern of their newspapers. Otherwise they would not be kept on; they would not be hired in the first place if they tried to put across views that would be in conflict with the policy of the board. The editor is hand-picked for the likelihood that he will be a conventional conservative.

I know what I am talking about. I can give chapter and verse if asked for it but I do not think any serious person would request that. It is wrong of responsible people like the Minister to talk about this type of thing, particularly as he has said at some times in the past that he had radical views, that he was concerned with the idea of democracy. He must have known that it is not true to say we have a free press. It is because we have not a free press that censorship which exists in the press is a slanting suppression. Anybody who reads Brian Inglis's work on this subject will get confirmation of this from a working journalist. We should not waste too much time on that issue, on the question of the freedom of the broadcasting of television. But trying to censor that is quite another question.

Remarkable changes have taken place and although I still find myself in a substantial minority, becoming smaller—in Ireland, not anywhere else, fortunately, because most other countries are going fast to the Left, socialist, communist, whatever it is— but, even so, I am still satisfied that we are the better in social and political terms for having had 15 years of our television services.

The odd thing is that this advance, this improvement, this expansion in knowledge, this liberalisation of attitudes, this freedom of discussion and debate, have taken place in spite of the fact that attempts have been made to manipulate, to control and censor television. I do not blame the broadcasters. A number of them, perhaps, ordinary conventional, conservative people have followed a party line unquestioningly. That is their right if those are their convictions, and good luck to them. But there has been a number of young broadcasters who have showed great courage in insisting on trying to overcome from time to time the very powerful censorship which is there in various forms, direct censorship or the various other kinds of censorship which we all know exist —the threats, the implications, the person who can be deprived of work in dozens of different ways. We know of that, particularly for part-time workers. It is simply the most arrant type of baby talk to suggest that there is no manipulation in the television services or that there is likely to be presentation which gives both sides of the question.

This is a very interesting subject— the way in which the great corporation have been able to deal with the idea of creating the impression of fairness and at the same time making sure that any impartiality there might be is invariably impartiality on the side of the establishment. Lord Reith, in relation to the BBC, said that this service shall be a constitutional service, a service within the constitution, a national service—that is that, under pressure, it will always come down on the side of the establishment, and that of course is the record of the BBC.

I will deal later with the question of impartiality. The description that Markus gave it was "repressive tolerance". It is a magnificent device for saying nothing, and certainly for maintaining the stability of the bourgeois establishment and for taking from political protests any power there might be in society.

The greatest tragedy is that a man of the Minister's talents, who has been put into this position of authority, responsibility and power, should bring forward such a Bill. Would the Minister tell us whether he had the power to bring in any type of Bill he wanted? If he could bring in any Bill he wanted would he have given us a serious socialist analysis of the remarkable power of communications and the way in which a fully-developed socialist society should deal with this very difficult problem? The existing socialist countries have avoided it. Poland has the right to bring in a Minister and question him. Hungary can do likewise but that is all capable of the most obvious manipulation and could not be called a serious democratic or mass involvement in the television services.

The trouble is that socialists have tended to adopt the sort of Simon pure approach to television. This is a nasty thing. It is in the hands of the capitalists and they are using it to misrepresent, pervert and corrupt and that we must not have anything to do with it. That is wrong because the time will come when we will need to be able to manipulate the communication services our way. We should be trying to plan out the approach that we would have—what kind of democracy or what kind of democratic control of the television services we would like to introduce.

This is an interesting question in relation to the whole area of revolution and socialism. If the monopoly of television had not been left totally in the hands of a small group in Chile, it is quite possible that the counter revolution and so on could not have been so easily reversed. The fact that one has access to television is a most powerful instrument at times like these. An attempt to democratise the television service quite rapidly is something which socialists should think about.

I made the charge that manipulation is inevitable and universal. It is inevitable in the choice of the medium —the cutting, the synchronisation, the dubbing and the distribution. Most of us know of the dozens of ways in which censorship takes place in the television service. I am afraid that will go on. It would have been more pleasant to hear the Minister recognise that fact and say, like the late Seán Lemass did in his blunt unequivocal way, that "television is an instrument of government". As far as he was concerned it was going to stay that way, and of course it did. I would prefer if the Minister had showed the same honesty because he clearly shares the same convictions as to the function of television.

As to the preoccupation with violence, this is again a very interesting subject. Our television screens are frequently covered with various types of depictions of brutality, real and fancied. Many people find this very disturbing. They condemn it, but oddly enough they are not puzzled by it. It is a kind of lightweight trash. I hate using the word "trash" because it is a value judgment and I would be then indulging in the sin for which I am accusing the Minister of paternalism or superciliousness.

The kind of film, play or entertainment which one considers that adults should not be concerned with is something which, unfortunately, the audience must have. It is to this very disturbing thing, when applied to the excessive continuous violence portrayed on our screens, whether it is the violence of the western, of the detective film and the awful hunts, the brutality, the cruelty, the deceit and the ugliness of the whole relationships between men, the aggression in football matches, boxing and wrestling—why is it that society needs these things—the Minister should have applied himself in his analysis of the purpose of the broadcasting service. His dismissing, crude, insensitive criticism of the broadcaster and the journalist for having a love affair with violence was most unfair. It was a superficial comment which was very wrong.

As the Minister probably finds it very difficult to go on listening to me because of an obvious psychological block on his part to listening to something he does not like, similarly it is quite likely that he would not be bothered looking at most of this kind of material that I am talking about. The broadcaster would not put it on if everybody were like the Minister. It is looked at because of the needs of the viewers concerned. That was one of the most serious misstatements made by the Minister in his speech about the sins of the broadcaster or the journalist.

Secondly, in relation to the violence of the IRA and the Provos and the exhibition of these people on television and to Senator Halligan's extraordinary condemnation of the piece by Henry Kelly in The Irish Times about Cathal Goulding, this gives you a wonderful window on the mind of these people —this sense of superiority, which I talked about earlier on. The idea that Cathal Goulding as a result of that interview gained anything from anybody, which of us did not come to precisely the same conclusion as Senator Halligan did about Goulding? He started as a right wing fascist and he is ending up as a left-wing fascist. Was anybody mistaken about that? Did he gain any more support? Is he in higher standing in our society than he was before that interview? Why does the Minister think that he has some special dispensation or intelligence that can see this kind of thing clearly but nobody else can, that he is not like the rest of men? Then he gets support in this assumption from the Secretary of the Labour Party, Senator Halligan.

Debate adjourned.

In view of the fact that the count for the Seanad by-election is to take place on Wednesday next, it is not proposed to sit that day.

The Seanad adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 24th April, 1975.

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