Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 1975

Vol. 81 No. 14

Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1975: Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Dolan

Before the Bill passes I should like to make some observations on it. First I want to say that, from the outset. I was not in favour of such a Bill. At the same time, I freely admit that I am in total agreement with the provision of a second channel. I fully realise that it is good that people should have a choice. I also know that, in view of the dramatic expansion which has taken place in post-primary education, and so on, it is necessary to have a second channel and particularly in a small and young country such as ours. A second channel could be of immense benefit to the people educationally, as well as providing entertainment. I also envisage that a second channel under the control of RTE would be able to cull the very best programmes from foreign stations as well as including native material that would be of historical value and benefit to the people as a whole.

As we all know, television exerts immense influence on people for good or for evil. It can widen their tastes and it is also used to stimulate and govern people's thinking. Very often it stultifies people's originality. Addicts find themselves glued to television in such a way that they are unable to think for themselves. For those reasons it is easy to understand why all nations attach immense importance to it. We realise that it is a most powerful medium. It can penetrate the thickest walls and get into the most backward places if the wavelengths and the techniques are available.

In a small country such as this, we should not attempt to hand over in any shape or form any authority to any outside broadcasting company, be they from America or from Britain, to come in here and use our radio and television stations to broadcast their propaganda. I have no hesitation in repeating that that is what most of these people will use our stations for. We are old enough to realise that that seems to be the object of the attentions of many of these outside nations. The Americans and the British dominate communications and, in particular, television networks. They use them for their own advantage to boost their own economy and to put across their own way of life.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

They would want to do a better job.

Mr. Dolan

That may be. They are still doing it. It is hard to understand what power game they are playing. We must be realistic and realise that the first move they make to gain power in any country, even in darkest Africa, is to seize control of television. They realise that it is a most powerful medium and, having control of it, means having control over the destinies and the minds of the people.

I am not in agreement with this Bill. In section 4 there is a reference to a broadcasting complaints commission. It seems to me that the Minister has preconceived ideas and has his mind made up that, whether the people of Ireland want it or not, they must have BBC 1. I believe work has already started on this. He has evaded the question of costs. No doubt the price of the TV licence will be doubled or trebled. He has said that BBC 1 is what the people want. It is difficult to see how he came to those conclusions. It is a well-known fact that the people in the single-channel area have never seen BBC and, therefore, they cannot judge the programmes.

Senator Martin gave us examples of some of the programmes shown on other channels. I fail to understand why there should be such a clamour, as the Minister seems to suggest there is, for introducing BBC. Even if there was a clamour for such programmes, it would be wrong for any Minister to welch on his responsibilities as a Minister— particularly when the people have not had the choice of deciding for themselves in a referendum—by handing over to a foreign power full control over the news media and the presentation of news, and make our taxpayers pay for it.

The Minister regarded my suggestion that RTE would vanish completely as being completely ridiculous. I have no hesitation in repeating that again. It is a logical argument. When we realise the enormous resources BBC have at their disposal we can easily visualise that a time will come when RTE will not be able to compete with them and they will eventually swamp RTE in the same way as supermarkets have swamped small shopkeepers. Our whole nation will be at their disposal and it will be too late for any Minister to try to step in then because the harm will be done. The Minister already knows that. Once this legislation gets under way, it will not be easy to have it repealed. They will be able to present their values and their norms, their attitudes, their aptitudes and their whole British outlook to the Irish people. That is a well-known fact which cannot be disputed.

There is provision in section 4 for a broadcasting complaints commission. Ironically, no complaints whatever can be made to this broadcasting complaints commission about anything that will appear on BBC programmes. Irish people can complain about their local programmes but these people will be given carte blanche to broadcast whatever type of programme they like from the first programme in the morning to God Save the Queen at night. While I have nothing personal to say against the Queen of England, to suggest that we should end our programmes from RTE, subsidised and paid for by our taxpayers, with the British national anthem, I would regard as a backward and retrograde step and one which no Minister should dream of trying to foist on the Irish people. This would be going against the wishes of the majority of the Irish people, and that includes people North and South. If the Minister has any money to spare for television, his first duty should be to ensure that RTE will be available in every corner in our own 32 counties first before he attempts to rebroadcast a foreign station here.

The Minister made reference to my assessment of him as an Irishman. I have nothing against the Minister personally. I am proud of my roots and I would hate to see a service established——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is straying from the Final Stage debate. He should confine himself to what is strictly contained in the Bill, not what he might like to see in it or other irrelevant matter.

Mr. Dolan

I was dealing with the complaints commission. I said the BBC could broadcast what they liked in this country and that we could not complain to the complaints commission.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator made that point.

Mr. Dolan

When we allow the BBC to break our traditional link with the past, when we allow a foreign station to use our money to liquidate our Irish thinking and our national way of life, we will have no Irish nation. It is wrong that the BBC should be allowed to operate here and that we would have no machinery for making complaints to anybody about them. The Minister may say that this may be brought to the notice of the Houses of the Oireachtas but, as far as I am concerned, that is all nonsense. If the second channel is established and RTE are gone out of existence it will not be possible to do that.

We all have reservations about section 6. I cannot understand how any Minister of State could even conceive the idea of going over to England and asking them to come over here and handing to them our broadcasting services. There are countries where this would be taken far more seriously than it is being taken here. Ministers of State would certainly be asked to render an account of their stewardship for acts such as that purporting to be on behalf of the nation. Much more would be needed than to come into Seanad Éireann, where the Minister already knows by virtue of the Taoiseach's nominations that he has a majority, to convince us that section 6 reflects in any way the will of the Irish people.

Half the population can be reached by the BBC accidentally spilling over for geographical reasons. Almost half the people cannot get RTE. That is a valid point to make on a Bill such as this. The Minister has also made reference to giving the people what they want. These are arguments that have already been dealt with on Committee Stage and I will not go into them. We would be in agreement with paying more for our licences, which will eventually happen, to provide a second channel, but we will rue the day we hand over our television channel to any outside body.

In section 14 there is reference to programmes with an Irish content and in the Irish language, and so on. The Minister did not concede anything on any of the amendments put forward in this respect. I firmly believe that a Bill such as this, which would eventually help to erode our whole cultural past, our language, and our traditions, is evil and bad, and should not be countenanced by anybody in this House or, indeed, by anybody who values our national aims and seeks to do the best he can for our people, for their traditional way of life and for the betterment of the nation as a whole. If we have no self-respect, no respect for our traditions and for our people, we cannot expect anybody to have it for us abroad. The Irish nation, now that we have entered the EEC, will be far more respected when we go abroad, if we stand on our feet as Irishmen, not as little Englishmen.

I have gone through the Bill and I am 100 per cent against it. I am 100 per cent in agreement with a second channel but I feel the Minister is doing a bad day's work. It will be interesting to see how some of the so-called national-minded people on the other side will vote on this Bill. I firmly believe that the Minister has introduced this Bill to divert attention from the real issues facing the country at present. He feels in his heart and in his soul that we would be much better under the Union Jack and that we should finish our tasks each evening by listening to the British National Anthem. That is what I think the Bill will eventually succeed in doing.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

I am sorry to differ from my friend, Senator Dolan. One of the mistakes he is making is that he is underestimating the intelligence of the Irish people. He should give them some little credit for having some intelligence and sophistication. Before RTE opened a station very many people received BBC and aerials sprang up all over the eastern, north eastern and western parts of the country. It did not make any of them Little Englanders. They had not got to sit up until they heard the British National Anthem. There is a switch on each set and it can be switched off.

Mr. Dolan

They knew they were British stations. They were not under our control. That is the difference.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

I wonder how many people in the Senator's county or in my county in the multi-channel area are making do with RTE. Every one of us has a choice of four channels and we are getting the best possible value for the £12 or £20 we pay. I am sorry to say I doubt that the people in the single-channel area are getting value for the £12 or £20 they have to pay. We must consider those people and ensure that they get value for money. If I lived in a single-channel area, I would not pay £12 or £20 for some of the things we are getting from RTE at present. If we cannot make a better argument against the introduction of BBC, or a second channel, or whatever service can be given to the people in the single-channel areas, than to say the Minister is trying to make them Little Englanders, or compel them to listen to God Save the Queen, then we have not got a strong argument. The people in the west of Ireland and the south of Ireland are entitled to the same value as we get for our £12 and £20 where we have the choice of four channels.

Senator Lenihan

I am very glad that Senator Jack Fitzgerald, for whom I have great respect, has mentioned a point which highlights the point I have sought to put forward here repetitively, unfortunately. It is related to section 6 so I can say it again here on Report Stage. The media in my view, and in particular the media who are for the automatic, in toto, transmission of BBC I have not highlighted this aspect. That is why, with your indulgence, it is relevant to section 6.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Do not strain my indulgence too much Senator Lenihan. We are on the Final Stage.

Mr. Lenihan

I appreciate that and I appreciate the necessity to confine myself to the section which Senator Fitzgerald has highlighted again. There is nothing in our attitude that is antagonistic to BBC 1 being seen on both channels, monitored and controlled by Irish authorities throughout this country. We object to the automatic transmission of BBC broadcasting in its entirety on wavelengths controlled by the Irish people, handing over control of our wavelengths to another country. It is as simple and as straightforward as that. That in no way takes from the right of people to make decisions. To keep the argument topical, RTE this morning in a statement said they would replace the "Late Late Show" by "Match of the Day". That is a practical example of what I mean. Two national channels would naturally continue to carry a very high proportion of BBC and UTV programmes for which there is a demand in this part of the country. That is obvious.

I am not arguing now on an emotional level or because of any ultra-nationalism. I am merely pointing out the facts. The facts I have just mentioned are now being supported by the trade unions throughout the country, I am proud to say. Only last night in Castlerea, County Roscommon, Mr. Browne of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union was advocating exactly the point of view I expressed here yesterday and, incidentally, I was misreported in the Press. Mr. Browne was talking to workers in Castlerea and saying that there would be very little difficulty in a single-channel area in organising a committee or a body to advise and control. It would be complementary to the first channel area. In other words, under section 6 there are all these options open to the Minister if the Minister would give a clear indication.

The trouble with the Minister is he committed himself in a state of euphoria sometime ago to BBC 1. I agree with the Minister there is no need for him to be so committed under section 6 if he listens to the common sense emerging with increasing force in the trade union movement here. I am very thankful for this trade union movement in a 32-county Ireland that can pull its weight with the trade union movement in Britain. As the Minister listens to the common sense emanating from that source, as well as the common sense emanating from the Fianna Fáil Party and the six University Senators in this House, he will see that the wise way to exercise his discretion under section 6 is to ensure that any second channel programme will not be a BBC 1 programme brought in here automatically with no control in regard to its transmission.

What we want is a second channel under an Irish authority, be it the present RTE Authority or, as Mr. Browne of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union suggested, an advisory body working in with the RTE Authority organising complementary programmes, thereby avoiding wasteful and damaging competition, the sort of competition that now exists between ITV and the BBC. These can tolerate that type of competition. This massive common sense will, I am sure, influence the Minister. Section 6 is, as far as we are concerned, the nub of the Bill. We have had a very fruitful discussion on the other sections of the Bill and the Minister has very properly met us on many constructive amendments in other sections but basically section 6 is the nub of the whole Bill. It is a fundamental principle of national control. That is what is involved here.

I would like to repeat again something I said earlier and, again, I have been misreported in one particular newspaper. The press release of the RTE Authority states:

No other country in the world has concluded that a second television service in that country should take the form of the rebroadcast in toto of one of the services of a neighbouring country.

That is fact. At this stage in our lives let us not be hung up on what we said two years ago. The Minister made—I will not say stupid—an unnecessary comment two years ago in regard to open broadcasting: it was not achieveable. I have made mistakes like that myself. We all have. I am being completely honest about this. I would like to see the Minister recognising that possibly the most stupid, political and foolish mistake that has been made in regard to this whole area was made by the Minister when he talked about open broadcasting long before he knew the technicalities of the job. He knew this just was not on. Open broadcasting between these two islands is not on. The Minister knows that well. He knows that as the climate is now developing any question of the automatic transmission of BBC 1 into Ireland is very very doubtful because of the trade union attitude and for other reasons. I do not see the BBC Authority jumping into this arena which is already loaded. Apart from the trade union attitude there are other compelling political reasons why the BBC will not participate in airwaves transmission into this country.

I would suggest to the Minister finally that he should in the most constructive way possible look at what he can do under the interpretation and administration of section 6. I have said hard things to the Minister in the course of this debate; that is part of the purpose of parliamentary debate. I have suggested that he is predetermined in this; he wants to canalise us into a "little Briton" situation. I would ask the Minister to regard that attitude as something separate and to look at this in a strictly technical sensible way, disregarding what has been said in this side, disregarding what he has said himself——

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Why should I disregard what the Senator has said?

Mr. Lenihan

Disregard what the Minister has said himself on some aspects of this matter and look in a very hard and sensible way at section 6 from the point of view of its Irish national interest. The Minister has with honour, as a civil servant in an Irish Government, played his part in the Irish national interest. He also played a part in the Irish Newsagency where he was very much concerned with the projection and propagation of the Irish point of view. I suggest to the Minister, with that background and knowledge and, in particular, his knowledge of the exercise of power on the part of the British media and the whole Anglo-American communication set-up— press, radio and television—of which he is well aware, the automatic transmission of BBC 1 with full effectiveness on all wavelengths, throughout the republic we have created here will be the most damaging thing done to the security, independence and nationality of this State. It will in fact be—I do not like using the word "traitorous"——

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Then do not use it.

Mr. Lenihan

——a traitorous blow at something we regard as very important. Young people regard as important our capacity to exercise our independent sovereignty for the benefit of our people. I would regard any obsession by the Minister in regard to BBC 1 coming in in full effectiveness as traitorous. I am trying to rescue the Minister from embarking on that very serious path and I am very glad his advisers have framed section 1 in the way they did The Minister is aware, as he indicated in one of his more liberal moments, that he can under section 1 escape from this snake pit. It is global enough to enable the Minister not to embark on the BBC 1 idea. I appreciate that under section 6 the Minister may decide to take into account what is being said to him here by the Fianna Fáil Party, by the trade unions and by the university representatives, who are also naturally interested and who maintain a balance in this Chamber. The Minister may take their views into account and, in that consideration, may operate section 6 in a way other than the arbitrary transmission of BBC 1 holus bolus and in toto into this country because that would be a very serious disaster.

The Minister is well aware that it is not just Senator Lenihan speaking here; it is a massive majority of Irish opinion thinking on the same lines. The handing over of the automatic transmission of the Irish national wavelengths to another State is opposed in many instances in the North. From the point of view of our agricultural policy and our national interests this is a very serious matter. It is not a question of BBC 1versus RTE. I welcome a large proportion of BBC programmes. The BBC is a highly sophisticated, professional and excellent organisation in many respects but what I am concerned about is having programmes on BBC 1 over which we have no control. I suggest to the Minister that this argument is so logical I cannot understand how any sane person, other than a whipped person, cannot see it. It looks as if only whipped people are going to support the Minister. The logic it is to have a combined complementary system —two channels operating in Ireland under national control, either RTE or some other body, enabling us to take the best and what the Irish people are happiest with.

Again, it is not a question, as Senator Russell said last night, of the disadvantaged television viewers against the advantaged television viewers. In fact, the disadvantaged television viewers will have a high proportion of what he desires. He was rather unfortunate last night in referring to "Match of the Day" because, as we saw from today's Press, the very programme he mentioned is now going to be incorporated in RTE 1 instead of the "Late, Late Show."

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

It might be like the Foreman and Clay fight.

Mr. Lenihan

The Senator can settle that problem. I am talking about the honour of this country and where this country stands in regard to its own sovereignty and its own nationality.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Lenihan will continue now on the Fifth Stage.

Mr. Lenihan

I feel very strongly about this, committed and slightly passionate at times. If there is one matter that has come before this House and into Irish politics in recent years about which I feel very strongly it is this one. I believe we are letting the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, if he wants to continue along this dangerous path, lead us all, of all political parties and persuasions, into a very dangerous abyss. I am trying to help him out; I am trying to help all of us out of that situation into which he will bring us. I am certain that his own advisers in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and every member of the RTE Authority, their predecessors, every worker and executive involved do not want this and, if one were to take a straw vote throughout his Department and throughout the RTE Authority, I am certain what the result would be.

Why the Minister should at this stage defy the Irish nation I cannot understand. Why people should move in with him and be whipped into supporting him in this national sabotage defeats me. I hope the Minister will listen to the constructive views advanced here and will use what I think is the degree of flexibility in section 6 and not decide on BBC 1in toto. We have one thing to be thankful for; in the section BBC 1 is not referred to and, in that respect, there is an out in so far as the Minister is concerned. The Minister should use that out, consider the views that have been expressed and use his power under section 6 not to direct the automatic transmission of BBC 1. He has power to do that over the next few months. I am hopeful, having listened to the noises as they grow louder, that this is what the Minister will do. If the Minister decides on an act of national sabotage and brings in BBC 1 in its entirety he will have the trade unions up against him and the trade unions will function effectively in their own solidarity both in Ireland and Britain. He will have the Fianna Fáil Party in its entirety against him. He will have nationally-minded people against him in their entirety. Above all else, I believe eventually the good sense of the British Broadcasting Corporation will ensure they will not move into a mischievous situation being created by a maverick Minister, for the satisfaction of his own ego in pursuit of a statement unnecessarily and stupidly made two years ago, a statement from which he can now quietly withdraw with honour and, if he does, we will give him a magnificent accolade. Will he withdraw now, recognising the opposition there is to a measure he may mistakenly have thought necessary for public consumption but which he can now no longer regard as acceptable for public consumption? As a good democrat he should recognise that the facts are against him. This is just not on. He can do this under section 6. If he does not do it we will press this matter to a vote.

I would suggest that in the quiet of the recess, with the taxation matters out of his system, hopefully he should relax and consider the various contributions made and the points of view we put to him, come to a saner point of view when the Bill comes before the Dáil in the Autumn and decide that he is no longer fixed to this fading BBC star, which is no longer relevant and, indeed, is coincidentally fading with the Coalition star at the moment.

Mr. Moynihan

As one of those resident in the disadvantaged areas and who has experienced single-channel TV for 15 years, I welcome this Bill. The arguments advanced against it have been lacking in sincerity and depth. They are changing now to something different in regard to section 6. Originally there was a widespread blunt attack on the basis of nationalism, loss of nationalism and the changeover of our community into little Britons. That was the pattern. Indeed, Senator Dolan went a step further this afternoon when he said bluntly here that the people in the disadvantaged areas were in no position to judge the merits or demerits of BBC because they had never seen it. Senator Dolan surely gives us in the south and west credit for a higher degree of intelligence than that. In that part of Ireland prior to our national television service people had an opportunity of tuning into BBC 1, BBC 2 and UTV. Very many of the people in these areas lived and worked in Britain and saw television and they are in a position to give a decision equal, if not superior to, that given by others. We resent this accusation of ignorance on our part. We had television reception before these areas that have had it only since the establishment of our national television service. We resent the imputation that we are less sincere or less nationalist or would be made less nationalist by having BBC or UTV television available. Surely Senators opposite are aware that there was complete freedom of choice where radio was concerned. One could tune in to any station he or she liked.

Mr. Lenihan

Speak to Senator Mullen. Do not be talking to us.

Mr. Moynihan

I am speaking here as a trade unionist and I have the support of many thousands of trade unionists in the south and west of Ireland. When the Minister mentioned BBC 1, that was not his own baby; it was the democratic progeny of the people concerned.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lenihan

We will see.

Mr. Moynihan

We have heard now the efforts to prevent this service being introduced for that part of Ireland. Surely Senator Lenihan and his party are well aware of the long and protracted representations made while his party were in Government to give a second channel to that section of the people.

Mr. Lenihan

Refer the matter to the trade unionists.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Lenihan should not try to prevent Senator Moynihan addressing the Chair.

Mr. Moynihan

Those representations were not heard. They were certainly not answered and it was left to the present Minister to do justice to the people in those areas and see they got some return from the contribution they were making by way of licence fees. Much has been said about trade union resistance. Trade union resistance was based on security of employment for their members and the Minister has given an assurance on that. It is not for trade unions to determine what all the people should and must have in the matter of a TV service and I am speaking as a trade unionist of long standing and on behalf of trade unionists.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Moynihan

The original argument was that RTE would fail financially—this was the main plank originally—if the Minister embarked on this course. It is amazing that there was never a squeak from the privileged areas that RTE was suffering financially because of the availability within those areas of alternative viewing. There was never any reference to nationalism or the development of a race of "little Britons" or anything else. Did the vast majority in these privileged areas, with availability of access, ask the Minister, because of the evil influences emanating from BBC 1, UTV or the others, to blackout these stations? If they had done so they might have created some impression of merit in these arguments being advanced now.

I welcome this legislation. The people in the deprived areas will welcome some equality even at this late hour, 16 years after the development of our own television service.

Mr. Yeats

I must say I found that an interesting demonstration of trade union solidarity from Senator Moynihan. He apparently is prepared to discount altogether the still strongly expressed objections of his fellow trade unionists on the grounds, as he says, that there has been some kind of a commitment by the Minister. It is news to me that trade unionists fail to stand by each other in the light of a statement by a Minister that they need not worry about the possibility of their interests suffering.

Senator Moynihan spoke with some force about the need to give those in deprived areas the same choice as exists in the areas he considers so well off in the east of the country. All I can say about that is that the proposal supported by this party and, more important, supported by the RTE Authority is one which he surely must accept would give a great deal more choice to the areas of which he speaks than the proposals that the Minister would like to put through. It seems to me that a choice of many channels is a wider and a better choice than the choice of one single channel, BBC 1. We have been through all this at considerable length.

I would like now to say a couple of things with regard to section 6 which could relate to Senator Fitzgerald's and Senator Russell's approach. Senator Fitzgerald complained about the existing standard of service provided by the RTE Authority. We will accept, for the sake of argument, that in this he is right. He is certainly perfectly entitled to think it. Obviously there are things about which one could complain in the services provided by the RTE Authority just as there are in any other service one is likely to see. I should have thought that his reaction in this instance should be that if in his view, the existing Irish television service is so bad he would ask the Minister to dismiss the Authority and put in something better. Very often the public may decide this rather than the Government.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

Would the Senator repeat that, please?

Mr. Yeats

The Senator's answer should be, if he is convinced that the RTE Authority are putting out bad programmes, to ask the Minister to throw out the Authority.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

Not at all; improve the programmes. After 16 years experience we are entitled to a little professionalism.

Mr. Yeats

If, in his view, the present RTE Authority are unable to put out decent programmes, surely he should change them. Is not that the answer? It happens here from time to time that the public decide their Government is not doing a good job. What do they do? They change it and put in a new Government. If Senator Fitzgerald were to be consistent in such case the thing to do would be to throw out the Irish Government and bring in the British, which is what he is doing now.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

If the Senator could make a sillier statement than that, come back next week and make it.

Mr. Yeats

What Senator Fitzgerald is saying is that——

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair would like to draw the attention of Senator Yeats to two matters; one, he seems to be directly addressing Senator Fitzgerald across the floor of the House, and, second, he seems to be wandering somewhat farther than one would normally expect on a Fifth Stage debate.

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

It is just because I made a few remarks about his pet, RTE.

Mr. Yeats

I have not, at any Stage, in the rather long course of this Bill, attempted to defend RTE. I have defended the proposition that the Irish television service should be run by Irishmen. I have said several times that I was not particularly interested in whether it was run by Irishmen inside or outside RTE. But the point I am making to Senator Fitzgerald is this: he said—he may not appreciate this—that because, in his view, the existing Irish service is bad, we should bring in the BBC, which is better. If the existing Irish programme is bad, he should ask the Minister to see that it is improved, if necessary by changing the personnel. It is as simple as that.

I would suggest to Senator Fitzgerald also that—I know that one is not supposed to refer to matters relating to the activities of——

Mr. J. Fitzgerald

On a point of explanation, what I said was that the people in the single-channel areas who are paying licence fees of £12 and £20 were getting bad value in comparison to those who had a choice of four channels, in the multi-channel area. That is a statement of fact and no matter how Senator Yeats tries to twist words he cannot alter that fact.

Mr. Yeats

I understood the Senator on that, and I think correctly as being extremely critical of the standard of the RTE programmes. If that is so, he should see they are improved. Senator Fitzgerald has had a long and distinguished career in the Gaelic Athletic Association. It seems that the Gaelic Athletic Association, apart from its obvious interest in promoting sport, has also, since its inception, had a very great interest in preserving things Irish. It had an Irish-Ireland attitude. I should have thought that anyone who was strongly associated with an Irish-Ireland organisation ought to be strongly associated with the concept that the Irish television service should be run by Irishmen. I am rather surprised and shocked to find that in at least one case this is not apparently the position.

Senator Russell has been associated with the Buy Irish campaigns at different times. What better Buy Irish campaign could one have——

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair is troubled about the nature of the discourse now being made by the Senator. This Stage is concerned with the contents of the Bill. The attitudes of individual members should not arise.

Mr. Yeats

I will leave this point. It is quite clear that the most important section of the Bill is section 6. That is the reason this Bill is before us. The other sections have varying degrees of importance, but the purpose of bringing in this Bill is to bring in section 6. If the Minister has his way we will be unique in handing over half our transmission facilities in the television field to a foreign television authority whose programmes while they are being transmitted will be totally out of the control of any Irish hand. We were told that if there was a time difference the programme could be held up for one hour before being broadcast. The concept that some Irish hand might by some mischance light on a tape recorder during the process of the transmission from England to Ireland was considered to be impossible.

We have the prospect of competition between our television service, with all its faults, which is an Irish service, run by Irishmen, by Irish trade unionists for Irishmen, with an approximate revenue of £8 million a year, and the great British Broadcasting Corporation with a revenue of £65 million a year. This is a kind of competition which could not be conducted on any fair or even basis. We have Buy Irish campaigns; we have all kinds of efforts to maintain employment, to maintain a concept of Irish nationality, of Irishism and it seems that anyone in a single-channel or multi-channel area who supports a concept of this kind is flying in the face of everything that has been hoped for, worked for and achieved in this country over the past 50 years. It is a concept which could not have arisen and would not have been tolerated in any previous generation.

Since the first spoken thoughts of the Minister on this since he was appointed to the office, I have been appalled that any Member of an Irish Government, in this or any other age, would propagate a scheme such as this. If such a proposal were to be accepted, we might as well forget we are an independent country. We might as well forget any idea that we are trying to preserve some kind of separate Irish entity.

Mr. Lenihan

It is hypocrisy if we let this through.

Mr. Yeats

I am not saying that the introduction of BBC would have any particular influence on us as Irish people, although television is the greatest single influence in the modern world today. The point I am making is that if we allow this to happen, if people, including Senators opposite, are prepared to support a proposal such as this, we might as well throw out the window any idea that we want to buy Irish, be Irish, support Irish culture, develop and encourage the Irish language. All these things become merely a farce, lip service, if at the same time, we are deliberately, by our own actions, bringing in a foreign television service— I do not care whether it is British, American or any other nationality—in its entirety.

If we take the two Irish transmission channels available to us, by far the greater number of hours per week will be transmitted not from Ireland but from London. This idea is appalling. That is why those of us who feel so badly about this have spent so much time discussing section 6 in its various ramifications.

I appeal to Senators opposite not to look on this as simply a basic party political issue. I do not think it is that. We all know that between the Opposition and the Government on any legislation there is a certain amount of in-fighting. One side objects to Government Bills; the other side defends Government Bills. Sometimes one feels more vociferous and more strongly than others.

In my view, this proposal goes beyond the political manoeuvring which inevitably takes place in all parliaments. I would put it to Senators opposite to think very carefully where we are going. That they should not look upon this as merely a form of family entertainment, what kind of programmes there will be on television, whether "Kojak" is better than "Tom and Jerry" or whether the BBC news is better than the RTE news. They should think of what this is doing to the concept of Irish nationality. It is not a matter of political slanging. It is a matter we should consider very deeply before we agree to a proposal of this kind.

This is a deeply distressing proposal from the point of view of Ireland, and the Irish people as an entity. I can only hope that, if the Minister insists on going ahead, it becomes impossible for him to do so for legal and other reasons. In so far as we are now going to vote on the Final Stage of this Bill, I would urge Senators opposite not to vote simply as whipped Senators. The Government Senators normally have to support the Government, but I suggest that they think very seriously as Irishmen about what they are doing.

Mr. McAuliffe

I did not intend speaking on this Stage of the Bill. Having heard Senator Lenihan, Senator Dolan and Senator Yeats, I thought I must say a few words. I happen to live in an area where we cannot get BBC for racing, sport or "Match of the Day". We heard a lot today about "Match of the Day" and noticed they are going to change the time of the "Late Late Show". That is a good idea because the "Late Late Show" has been a good show. Gay Byrne could be called "Mr. RTE".

There have been many times when I would have liked to have seen broadcasts of a race meeting. I often have a pound on a horse. I would like to see the race on BBC 1 or BBC 2 but it cannot be seen on RTE. Senator Lenihan used live in Athlone and had not BBC 1. He came to live in Dublin and now he has got a multi-channel service.

Mr. Lenihan

Is that the best point the Senator can make?

Mr. McAuliffe

Yes. Senator Yeats has a multi-channel service. I can guarantee that if I was in Senator Lenihan's house on a Saturday night he would have on "Match of the Day" because he was a good soccer player.

(Interruptions).

Mr. McAuliffe

Senator Dolan admitted in his speech on Second Stage that he had a multi-channel service and that by pushing the button he could change the programme. He made a humorous reference to the Queen going home on her bike. The people who have opposed section 6 are people who have multi-channel viewing. But we poor fools down the country will be corrupted and our nationalism and Irish outlook destroyed if we have it.

I have not met a single person in the West or the Midlands who is not crying out for a choice of channels. We are not going to accept RTE 2. We are not going to let anyone upset our plans for this. If there is something on BBC that we do not like we will change back to RTE. It is a simple as that. We or our children are not going to look at any programme that might hurt in any way. If there is something on RTE worth looking at, then it will be looked at. We will get the news and "The Late Late Show" from RTE. Some of the best programmes we have had on RTE came in from BBC such as "Upstairs, Downstairs", "Jenny" and so on.

The Minister has assured trade unionists that there will be no redundancy as a result of rebroadcasting BBC 1 and he will stand behind that. You people are trying to tell us what we are to see. I am surprised that anyone should say that the rebroadcast of BBC 1 is going to destroy our morals. Nearly half the population have multi-channel viewing at the moment and I do not feel that they are any more corrupt than those of us who receive RTE only. I would be very surprised if the Minister would change one line of section 6.

Mr. McGlinchey

I would like to congratulate Senator McAuliffe on making an excellent speech against this Bill.

Mr. McAuliffe

It did not take me six and a half hours to do.

Mr. McGlinchey

It was eight hours. The points he made that I liked were as follows. He said we will not let anyone select our programmes for us—but this Bill and the Minister are allowing the BBC to select our programmes for us. Senator McAuliffe, the Minister and the Government speakers are very much opposed to the RTE Authority selecting our programmes from other stations; but they are quite happy and content to let their friends, the British, do it for them. Senator McAuliffe's other point was that he wanted a choice of UTV and BBC.

Mr. McAuliffe

I never mentioned UTV. I mentioned BBC and RTE.

Mr. McGlinchey

Fianna Fáil's policy is to give the people a choice of programmes from these stations and to allow RTE to do the choosing. When the BBC programmes finish at the end of the night, will the Minister and the Government expect the Irish people to stand to attention when God Save the Queen is played?

Mr. McAuliffe

They do not even stand for The Soldier's Song.

Mr. McGlinchey

If Senator McAuliffe can see the BBC playing The Soldier's Song, I will be very surprised.

Mr. McAuliffe

Does the Senator stand up when he hears The Solider's Song?

Mr. McGlinchey

I certainly do. Is it the intention of the Government to have the British National Anthem relayed throughout the land? Perhaps the Queen might learn some Irish and sing the British National Anthem through the medium.

An Cathaoirleach

I would remind Senators who wish to speak to rise firmly and rapidly in their places as soon as the previous speaker sits down.

Mr. Deasy

I wish to support the Bill. I disagree completely with the Opposition speakers, especially the views expressed by Senator Dolan. I was appalled by the sentiment running through his speech. I congratulate the Minister on being so fearless and intelligent in the manner in which he has presented the Bill and for bearing with so many shenanigans and shoneens.

Mr. Lenihan

BBC 1 will never see the light of day.

Mr. Deasy

He has shown great courage and has done a magnificent job.

Mr. Lenihan

The trade unions will see to that.

Mr. Deasy

Senator Yeats during the last few minutes asked us to be conciliatory and not to have any animosity. How can one go along with that sentiment?

Mr. Yeats

It was not I.

Mr. Deasy

Insults have been thrown at the Minister during the course of this debate. We have had statements comparing him with Dr. Goebbels, accusing him of being a dictator and trying to destroy our cultural heritage. The Minister is trying to promote a more broadminded and sincere national attitude. Anybody who says anything to the contrary is not facing facts.

Mr. Lenihan

Read the Transport Union seminar reports over last weekend.

Mr. Deasy

The only thing the Opposition have not stated will be done is that the actual transmitters will be blown up when erected.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Deasy

The primary function of a television service is to entertain and secondly to educate. This will be done in an excellent manner by BBC 1.

Mr. McGlinchey

Is the Senator entertaining or agitating at the moment?

Mr. Deasy

From the tone of the Opposition it would be expected that everything that will come from BBC 1 will be destructive and will undermine the nationhood——

Mr. Lenihan

It is not the Opposition, but the Irish trade union movement.

Mr. Halligan

That is a lie.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Deasy should be heard without interruption.

Mr. Deasy

As the pace hots up in this debate between the people who wish to have BBC 1 retransmitted and those who wish to have a second RTE programme, I would appeal to the Minister to see that both sides get a fair opportunity of having their cases heard. I object to the recent instance where RTE personnel have taken time on their own station to promote their case——

Mr. Lenihan

On a point of order, the Minister invited them to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Deasy

——but they are not giving the people of the country who wish to see a retransmission of BBC 1 or UTV an opportunity to make their case. The whole case stems from section 6. Who decides what the people in the single-channel area will see?

Mr. Lenihan

A responsible Minister.

Mr. Deasy

The public want the right to be able to decide for themselves by being able to press the button on the television. They do not want somebody in Montrose doing it for them.

Mr. McGlinchey

Or the BBC.

Mr. Deasy

Because they suspect that they will not get the type of RTE 2 service which is being stated here, they are relying on public representatives to see that their wishes are met.

Mr. Lenihan

From London town?

Mr. Deasy

The public want a choice between RTE as it is at present and BBC 1 or ITV.

Mr. Lenihan

We are not getting that choice.

Senator Killilea rose.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Killilea wish to speak before the Minister concludes?

Mr. Killilea

No, it is all right.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I should like to thank Senator Killilea for his courtesy in allowing me in at this stage. The hour is late and I shall be brief, the more so as Senators opposite have said very, very, little that was not repeated many, many, times in the course of our very long debate. Senator Lenihan invited me to disregard most of what he said. It is an invitation that I would be inclined to take up in normal circumstances.

Mr. Lenihan

I did not quite say that.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

He has said a few things I ought to take up. He began by saying that he would not speak in any nationalistic manner and that he would speak without animosity. He continued in that vein for a little while and then accused me of dealing a traitorous blow to the Irish nation. He repeated that assertion a few times. If that is what he regards as non-nationalistic non-animosity I hope he never treats me to any nationalistic animosity.

Mr. Lenihan

That was to be factual.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I know, and the Seanad knows, that when Senator Lenihan uses an expression like "traitorous blow" or when Senator McGlinchey uses an expression like "collaborator" they do not mean anything in particular. They would slap you on the back in the bar as you go out.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

We will not talk about who is in the bar and who is not. I am sometimes in the bar anyway. I would like to say this, and a little more seriously: these are times in which I think people should not use about their fellow Irishmen terms like traitor, collaborator, and so on. I do not want to dwell on the reasons why those terms should not be used. It should not be necessary. We read the newspapers.

Mr. McGlinchey

Or poltroons.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Poltroon is a relatively harmless term.

Mr. McGlinchey

When the Minister relates it to the Leader of his Party it is worse.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I did not. I will leave that. I should like to say a few more things, very briefly. First of all as regards the concept of open broadcasting, I am accused of having launched this concept, not understanding what I was saying or doing, then abandoning, and so on. That is all good clean politics. Anyone who cares to consult what I did say about the subject in May, 1973, knows that what I was doing was indicating a direction of policy in which I wished and the Government wished to move, that is to say, to make the airwaves more open, not less, in so far as we could achieve this and at the most rapid rate at which we could do it. Of course, the previous Government who were doing what I would regard as good, by what certainly was stealth, had also been in fact proceeding in that direction when they licensed cable television in 1970 which caused a massive expansion in multi-channel viewing in certain areas. Now they hold up their hands in pious and holy horror at the thought of extending something like the same thing to the south and west. Many Senators from the south and west have given them an answer on that.

The trade unionists have been referred to. Senator Yeats from his Olympian height has sneered at trade unionists sitting in this House, and sneered at the lack of trade union solidarity which, in his opinion, was manifested by differences of opinion between trade unionists on the subject of whether to rebroadcast or not rebroadcast BBC 1. Why in heaven's name should trade unionists, like other human beings, not be entitled to differ on that matter?

Mr. Yeats

They stand together when there is a threat to employment.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Perhaps the Senator would allow me to speak. We do not want to protract this unduly. I do not know if the Senator has ever been at a trade union meeting of any kind in his life. I do not know whether he is entitled to.

Mr. Yeats

I was a member of a trade union.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister was not but he is now.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I have recently been at the annual conference of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union at Wexford. It was there clear to me that a great many delegates present, and possibly a majority, favoured the rebroadcasting of BBC 1. Speeches from that conference will soon be published in a magazine to which Senator Lenihan has referred.

Mr. Lenihan

Liberty.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Exactly, the Senator then will be able to see expressions of views openly and freely made by trade unionists, not breaking trade union solidarity because trade union solidarity is in no way involved in this, nor could it be. This is a question of freedom of choice of television viewing. As I say, I do not want to protract this debate here in the Seanad where, I think with respect, a fair amount of hot air has been talked from those benches over there. I would say this—and I have offered this before to Senator Lenihan and others, and I found no one so far from over there terribly anxious to debate this with me in public and on a public tribune, not here, but outside——

Mr. Lenihan

I will go anywhere the Minister chooses.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Will the Senator come to Limerick?

Mr. Lenihan

I will go anywhere the Minister asks me to go.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Very good.

Mr. Lenihan

I was not invited to go on the Radio Éireann programme with the Minister. The Minister in a lying manner imputed that I was invited. I was not invited by the RTE Authority.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Is "lying manner" in order?

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister said on the 1 o'clock Sunday programme three weeks ago that I was invited to go on an RTE programme. I was not invited by the RTE Authority.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair is waiting to hear the Minister conclude.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I know that when Senator Lenihan calls someone a liar he means nothing in particular and does not regard the term as a particularly offensive one.

Mr. Lenihan

Will the Minister accept that I was not invited by the Authority for which he is responsible? The Minister said on the programme that I was invited.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Will the Senator permit me to reply?

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister is totally dishonest.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair is waiting to hear the Minister conclude on the Fifth Stage.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I would prefer not to have the agenda of my speech determined for me by the Senator. I was there on the air and I regretted the absence of Senator Lenihan and of Deputy Molloy. I was then informed by the station that Senator Lenihan was not encouraged, let us say, to appear by his party.

Mr. Lenihan

I was not invited.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

The station were informed by the Senator's party that they did not want him——

Mr. Killilea

A cunning twisting of words.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Do not blame me. We asked Deputy Molloy and he was busy.

Mr. Dolan

The Minister was afraid he would be there.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister's Authority have my telephone number and ring me regularly. Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays to appear on programmes. The Minister can inquire from his Authority. He knows I am a most available person to appear on any programmes under his Authority. I was astounded to hear him saying on that particular programme that I was invited and did not attend. That is not true.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

One can be available without being wanted, and that apparently was the case. I am sorry that the concluding stage should be marred by this.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister started this. I was listening to the programme and I heard him telling lies.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

I would ask the Minister to resume his seat. The Senator should not speak while the Cathaoirleach is standing attempting to address the House. The Chair wishes to hear the Minister concluding the debate on the Fifth Stage of the Bill and is extremely perturbed by the extent to which the debate and the interruptions to what the Minister is saying are departing from what is proper on a Fifth Stage. The Chair must remind the House that, unless the House addresses itself to its business and attempts to carry out its business, the Chair will have no option but to adjourn the House.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister will not tell lies about me in this House. I was not invited by the Authority to appear on that programme.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

I have only a few minutes to go and I trust——

Mr. Halligan

On a point of order. I hesitate to intervene, but I want to say this quite solemnly to the Cathaoirleach. If Senator Lenihan is to be permitted, not once, not twice, not three times, but four and five times, and not just tonight but on other occasions too, to introduce into the parlance of this House accusations of lying and get away with them——

Mr. Lenihan

I heard the man.

Mr. Halligan

——in the absence of protection from the Chair we will have to protect ourselves. We were under the illusion that accusations of lying or being a liar, because that is what one is if one lies, were not parliamentary parlance. Is that not now the case?

Mr. Lenihan

I heard the man telling lies.

An Cathaoirleach

A direct accusation of lying is not permitted according to the rules of order but the Chair cannot listen carefully to or examine carefully every disorderly interruption. The Chair has asked that the business should proceed.

Mr. Killilea

On a further point of order, a Member of this House is entitled to the protection of the Chair when such an allegation is made against him. I for one was listening the day the Minister made that statement on radio. He has reiterated it here today. We should have the protection of the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order. It would appear that the Chair is being impartial since it has been accused from both sides of the House of not giving protection. The Minister to conclude.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

All I have to say in conclusion is that this debate is best carried out in the country before the people. I believe it will be during this summer. The people will make their preference known on this and then all of us, the Government, the Fianna Fáil Party, the trade unions, RTE, whoever we are, and whatever we think, will all have to bow to that verdict. That is my conclusion.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister is going to the streets again as he did in New York and Katanga before. It is the same policy.

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 13.

Tá

• Blennerhassett, John.
• Burton, Philip.
• Butler Pierce.
• Codd, Patrick.
• Connolly, Roderic.
• Daly, Jack.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Ferris, Michael.
• FitzGerald, Alexis.
• Fitzgerald, Jack.
• Halligan, Brendan
• Harte, John.
• Kilbride, Thomas.
• Lyons, Michael Dalgan.
• McAuliffe, Timothy.
• McCartin, John Joseph.
• Markey, Bernard.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• O'Brien, Andy.
• O'Brien, William.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• Russell, George Edward.
• Sanfey, James W.
• Walsh, Mary.
• Whyte, Liam.

Níl

• Brennan, John J.
• Browne, Patrick (Fad).
• Dolan, Séamus.
• Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
• Garrett, Jack.
• Hanafin, Des.
• Keegan, Seán.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McGlinchey, Bernard.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Ryan, William.
• Yeats, Michael B.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Sanfey and Halligan; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and Garrett.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Killilea

God save the Queen from the Labour Party and Conor Cruise-O'Brien.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.20 p.m to 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 1st July, 1975.