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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1976

Vol. 84 No. 10

Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1976: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to provide for increased penalties for offences under the social welfare code. These offences relate principally to cases in which employers do not comply with their statutory obligations in relation to the payment of social insurance contributions and in which persons abuse the benefits system.

Apart from increasing the maximum penalties for existing offences, the Bill contains one or two new provisions which will enable more effective action to be taken against abuses of the system and which will provide a very real deterrent against offences of all kinds.

The opportunity has also been taken in this Bill to provide for an easement of the residence test for non-contributory old age and blind pension purposes in so far as it affects non-nationals of this country.

This Bill is of a necessarily technical nature and I hope that the explanatory memorandum which has been circulated has been a help to Senators in their consideration of it.

Much of the Bill is, of course, not really new. For the sake of clarity and convenience it has been necessary for the draftsman to re-enact existing provisions to a very considerable extent. As part of this process, similar, but not necessarily identical provisions in the various schemes have been brought into line with each other as far as possible with a view to simplification and with an eye to a Bill consolidating social welfare legislation which has reached an advanced stage of preparation in my Department.

Where a new offence is being created, or a new penalty provided, this fact is specifically referred to in the explanatory memorandum.

The Government's intentions in these areas were announced in the budget statement on 28th January last when it was indicated that penalties for abuse, whether by employers or by those claiming benefit, would be increased. The purpose was to reflect more accurately in the penalty provisions of the code the large sums of money which can nowadays be involved in such malpractices and great importance was attached to the likely deterrent effect of increased penalties. It was made clear that the Government were determined to see that those who abuse the system—thereby defrauding the State and their fellow citizens—would be prosecuted rigorously.

I have frequently said that the number of cases of abuse, whether by employers or by those claiming benefit, is relatively small, though there is some evidence that the incidence of non-compliance—that is, failure by employers to pay social insurance contributions in respect of their employees—is on the increase.

When one considers the very large number of persons who, in one way or another, are now involved with the Department of Social Welfare, the number, whether employers or beneficiaries, who indulge in these practices is not large. There are, at present, approximately 88,000 recorded employers and about 500,000 claimants of the wide range of weekly payments available under either the insurance or assistance schemes together with some 405,000 families in receipt of children's allowances. Compared with the total expenditure on social welfare benefits and allowances, amounting this year to about £430 million, the sums which go astray in these cases are quite small.

That, of course, does not make the abuses any less serious or any more acceptable. These offences are anti-social and even on a small scale can have effects out of all proportion to the numbers involved.

Employers and workers as a whole, as well as the general taxpayer, are contributors to the social insurance fund and a failure, for example, by an individual employer to meet his liabilities is not something that concerns only the Department. It is also an offence against all the other contributors. When those who fail to stamp the insurance cards of their employees have already collected money from those employees in respect of their contributions an additional, and particularly reprehensible, form of theft is involved. Similarly, a claimant who succeeds in obtaining illegally a benefit, pension or other payment to which he has no right, is defrauding his follow citizens and workmates no less than the Department of Social Welfare.

I would regard it as nothing short of tragedy if, by allowing a belief to become widespread that such practices —however few in number—were on the increase and were being allowed to go unpunished, a climate of opinion were to be fostered which would be hostile to the whole programme of development of the social welfare system upon which this Government have embarked. No one, I imagine would question the objective desirability of such development having regard to the obvious needs of so many individuals and groups in our community. A large measure of generous public understanding and support will be required if these needs are to be successfully met.

I see a real danger that the existence of abuses will lead to the emergence of adverse attitudes towards everything that is being done to expand and strengthen the social welfare code and for that reason I regard the protection of that code as a major priority at this time. The provisions of this Bill are, therefore, designed to underline clearly the determination of the Government to ensure that abuses of the system will be dealt with firmly. The penalties for the kinds of offences to which I have been referring have in the main remained substantially unchanged since 1952. The amounts which can be involved either by way of contributions or payments have, of course, increased enormously since then, even making due allowances for changes in the value of money.

The weekly contribution rates payable by employers and employees have been raised, in line with the very substantial increases in the level of benefits under the social insurance code. Benefits themselves have been increased, in the past three years, by between 92 and 110 per cent. Failure to pay contributions due, even for a short period, can lead to a very considerable debt and benefit obtained illegally can mount up to a substantial figure in a short time. The temptation is now much greater for an employer to avoid payment of contributions or for a claimant to take a chance by fraudulently seeking a benefit or other payment to which he has no legal right. The deterrents must, therefore, be such as will ensure that it is simply not worth while to do such things in future. The deterrents provided in this Bill will, I believe, have this effect.

Present legislation normally provides a maximum fine of £50 or, if the court thinks fit, imprisonment for up to three months, or both fine and imprisonment and for summary convictions in the lower courts. Such a level of penalties and also the limitation to summary proceedings are obviously now quite insufficient, having regard to the very large sums of money which can be involved by way of unpaid contributions and the relatively substantial amounts which are concerned in the case of benefit or assistance wrongfully obtained.

The Bill proposes to deal more effectively with these offences by providing a two-tier system in relation to proceedings. Where the offence is such that it can be dealt with by summary proceedings in the lower courts a maximum fine of £500 or up to one year's imprisonment, or both, is being substituted for the existing penalties of a £50 fine or three months' imprisonment or both. In other words, these courts will be able to impose penalties up to what I am advised represents the full limit of their powers. For more serious offences, perhaps involving a large number of employees and many thousands of pounds in unpaid contributions, and where it would be quite inappropriate that they should be dealt with by summary proceedings, the Bill allows for proceedings on indictment. In this case, the maximum penalties which may be imposed are a fine of up to £2,000 or up to two years' imprisonment or both as the court may decide.

Effective as deterrents of this kind may be against individuals, something more is required in the case of limited companies. Such companies can, of course, be prosecuted under the law as it stands for failure to pay contributions or for other offences, but while an individual employer can have the full weight of the law invoked against him, including, if necessary, the ultimate sanction of a jail sentence, a limited company obviously cannot be similarly punished.

The Bill seeks to deal with this problem by making the directors and officers of a limited company personally liable and punishable for an offence committed by the company unless it can be shown that they were unaware of the offence and had taken reasonable steps to prevent it occurring. A further weakness in the law in this respect is that companies which have made deductions from employees' wages towards payment of social insurance contributions often go out of business either without having actually used the money deducted for the intended purpose or having diverted it to some other purpose. This can also happen in the case of individual employers. That money, which is, of course, properly speaking the employees' property and not the employers', then frequently becomes swallowed up in the general assets of the company or individual concerned and is lost to the social insurance fund except in so far as it may be partially covered by the limited preferences provided for in the Acts. The Bill, therefore, makes special provision to enable money deducted in this way to be recovered in full in preference to all other debts.

Another result of the substantially increased value of the social insurance contributions is that offences involving already used or stolen insurance stamps are on the increase. It will not have escaped the attention of Senators that reports of burglaries frequently include a reference to the theft of insurance stamps or stamped insurance cards. The emergence of forged or counterfeit stamps, often of high technical quality is another feature.

While it is already an offence to affix an already used stamp to an insurance card, there are no specific provisions in social insurance legislation under which a person involved in the use of forged stamps can be summarily charged. This Bill accordingly makes it an additional offence to use forged or counterfeit stamps on insurance cards. As might be expected, persons who use stolen stamps not infrequently resort to forged ones also. This kind of thing must be firmly discouraged and with this in view all offences of this kind are being made subject to the same heavily increased penalties to which I have already referred. Perhaps I could take the opportunity of putting it on record that if insurance stamps are purchased only through a post office in the normal way, distinguishing between a genuine stamp and a forged one need present no problem to employers.

To ensure that the law regarding the payment of contributions is complied with the Department have at their disposal the power of inspection of premises and documents and the vast majority of employers are, of course, prepared to co-operate to the full with the Department's inspectors. There is always, however, a small minority prepared to use every possible means to obstruct the Department's inspectors in carrying out their statutory duties. There are provisions in the Bill which make it easier for an inspector to deal with such cases by widening the definition of the premises or places to which access can be gained in the course of an inspection. The widened definition includes any premises or places where the inspector has reasonable grounds for believing that insurance cards or other relevant documents are being kept.

In this whole area of non-compliance one question is frequently raised which is of concern to many workers. This is that many employees very often do not know if their cards are being stamped and are naturally reluctant in many cases to approach their employer in the matter. Every employee has the right to inspect his or her social insurance card in order to ensure that it is fully stamped up to date and an employer cannot legitimately refuse to provide his employees with appropriate means to exercise it. However, it has been suggested that groups of employees could entrust their rights in this matter to their trade union representatives. I am having this possibility looked into in my Department and although, I must admit, it presents certain difficulties, I hope that it may be possible to arrive at a satisfactory solution. No one, I think, would deny that it is of great importance that employees should be facilitated in such a fundamental issue of information which relates to their rights, and to their money.

Though I have stated my belief that the extent of fraudulent claiming is nothing like as widespread as is commonly believed, the incidence of fraudulent claiming—for example concurrent working and signing of the unemployed register—and the amounts of money which can be involved are sufficient to warrant equally severe penalties on conviction. The Bill also, therefore, enables the fraudulent claiming or receipt of any benefit or assistance to be punished by fines of up to £500 or one year's imprisonment or both on summary conviction. In extreme cases, involving offences of a particularly serious nature, the Bill allows for proceedings on indictment and fines of up to £2,000 on conviction or prison sentences of up to two years or both fine and imprisonment. As an additional deterrent, the Bill also provides for the application to the other forms of benefit, allowances, pension and assistance, of the disqualification following a conviction, at present applicable only to unemployment benefit and assistance, for receipt of the payment concerned for a period of six months.

Where a benefit, allowance, pension or assistance was paid on the basis of false information, the Bill also makes it more difficult for the person who gave such false information to escape prosecution. It is not unreasonable to assume that in such cases the person concerned knew the information was false and intended to deceive the Department and that if this was not so it should be up to the person concerned to satisfy the court on the point.

My Department have gone to some lengths during the past two or three years, through various forms of publicity, to emphasise the statutory right of claimants. As a result, people are now more aware than ever before of what social benefits are available to them; of the conditions attaching to such benefits; and of their rights in these respects. As part of this process it has been made easier than ever before, through simplification of forms and procedures, for persons to seek their rights. In making things more simple, for everybody there is a danger of making it easier for the small minority of dishonest claimants also. Provision of the kind to which I have referred becomes necessary as a consequence.

Many of the offences which merit prosecution do not unfortunately, through no fault of the Department, come to notice for long periods after their commission. In general the various Acts provide at present that proceedings must be commenced within 12 months of the commission of the offence. An exception is the unemployment assistance scheme where the period is only six months. There is provision in both cases, however, for extending the period by a certificate given under ministerial seal. Sometimes, for example it is the case that it is not until a claim for benefit is being made that it emerges that cards have not been stamped. In other cases it may not come to light that used or forged stamps have been made use of or that an employee has been working while drawing unemployment benefit until the cards have been surrendered and examined. This process may not be completed for many months after the year to which the cards relate. To make it more difficult for offenders to escape prosecution through lapse of time, the ordinary time limit for taking proceedings is being extended to two years in all cases, including unemployment assistance. A uniform method of extending this period by certificate under ministerial seal is also being adopted, this being, with a slight modification, the method already applicable in unemployment assistance cases.

Where possible the opportunity has been taken in the Bill to bring about a degree of uniformity among the various schemes, in so far as provisions for offences and proceedings are concerned, where those differ at present. The Social Welfare Act, 1952, for example, gave power, in relation to the various social insurance schemes, to provide in regulations for offences and penalties. Under the provisions of that Act this power was also applied to the various assistance schemes which came into being since 1952. No similar power, however, exists in so far as the earlier assistance schemes, such as the non-contributory old age pension scheme and the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme and also the unemployment assistance scheme are concerned. The Bill is providing such a power in relation to these latter schemes, though the level of penalties is being confined to those applicable in summary proceedings only. Higher levels would, I think, be inappropriate to the kind of offence which would be involved in such regulations.

Finally, the Bill includes an amendment which relates to the residence test for non-contributory old age—and blind—pensions. I should say, perhaps, that this test requires that in order to qualify for non-contributory old age pension a person must have resided in the State for a total period of at least 15 years of which at least five were subsequent to the attainment of the age 50. For a person who is not an Irish citizen the five years must have been a continuous period preceding the date of the claim. In the case of a blind pension, which is, in effect, a non-contributory old age pension payable at an earlier age than age 67, the minimum qualifying age is 21 years, the person must have resided here for five years since attaining the age of ten in the case of an Irish citizen or a total of 15 years in the case of other persons.

Following our accession to the EEC in 1973 we have been obliged under the articles of accession to afford the same treatment as far as these residence tests are concerned to nationals of the other member states, and also to refugees and stateless persons, as we afford to our own citizens. Such persons have in effect been treated the same as Irish nationals for the purpose of these residence tests. There is little point, therefore, in maintaining this discrimination against other non-nationals. In any event, the abolition of such a definition would eventually be required in the context of International Conventions on Social Security. The change proposed in the Bill, will have the effect of making the residence tests concerned the same for both nationals and non-nationals will, no doubt, be welcomed by Members of Seanad Éireann.

These then are the main features of the Bill now before you. Bearing in mind that it is in the interest of everyone who believes in the necessity of continuing improvement of the social welfare system to ensure that any possible basis for criticism of that system is removed, and how vital it is that it should be recognised that offences against the social welfare code are among the most serious and anti-social of all misdeeds, I feel sure that Members of Seanad Éireann will give the measure their sympathetic and positive consideration.

What we are attempting to develop is a comprehensive and efficient social welfare system which can cope with the immediate financial needs of individuals and groups in need and, at the same time, provide for the solution of a range of more long-term social problems, such as those of the-aged, the widowed and the handicapped or disabled. Beyond these goals lie the prospect of a system capable of mobilising the resources of society for the task of eliminating the causes of disadvantage and poverty in society. This will involve a positive redistribution of income as between age-groups, occupational groups and regional groups. It is, therefore, obvious that the social welfare system must be based on a number of intrinsic elements. These include the full recognition of the dignity of every individual; the fostering of the rights of both individuals and family units; and the development of absolute openness and accessability in the working of the system.

Such considerations make the need to bring forward legislative proposals such as those contained in the present Bill most painful. There is always a danger that in defending and protecting the integrity of the code—and the money of both contributors and tax payers—a negative and distasteful atmosphere in the whole operation of social welfare will be created. This I want to avoid. There is, needless to say, a continual dilemma in designing anti-abuse methods while, at the same time, seeking to open up the system and to improve relations between the Department of Social Welfare and those with whom they deal from day to day. That being said, it only remains for me to recommend the Bill to Seanad Éireann for speedy and favourable consideration.

I welcome this Bill because it is an effort to prevent abuses as far as social welfare is concerned, but I wonder whether it will be effective or not. The Bill is really a Bill imposing higher fines and longer prison sentences for offenders. In the past few years the number of people who have been prosecuted has not been too great. I feel that if the law was strictly applied three or four times more people would be prosecuted. Therefore, when this Bill is law it will not be of any use unless the Department of Social Welfare are prepared to engage more staff to see that it is not abused.

Mention has been made, and rightly so, about employers not paying contributions. We all know that this is something that has been happening down through the years and it is the worker who appears to suffer. He suddenly finds, after six months, that when he looks for unemployment or social welfare benefits that his cards have not arrived and that he is not entitled to benefits. It might take six months or even 12 months before this is finally sorted out by the Department and the man has to suffer during that period. While most employers are honest people, you have the few who, maybe through no fault of their own, do not stamp the cards and allowing it to go for six months without a check is asking for trouble. It would cost a lot more money but perhaps it would be worth it if the Department had officials who would have a look at those cards, say, once every two months or so, where they feel that the cards will not be stamped.

The Bill introduces very stiff penalties on employers who do not stamp the cards, but the trouble is that most of the employers who do not stamp the cards do not do so because they are in financial difficulties. By the time you find out the cards are not stamped, they are probably bankrupt and gone out of business. I do not know how the Minister will get his fine in that case.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that the worker can ask to see his card any time he likes but I doubt if any worker will do that. The Parliamentary Secretary spoke of the possibility of the trade unions or the shop stewards doing it. If the trade union people were agreeable to do it it would be a very good thing. However, whether it is the trade unions or officials from the Department who do it, it is something that needs to be watched much more carefully. Every other day we in public life have people coming to us with cases of this kind where their cards are not stamped.

As far as penalties are concerned for those who abuse the benefits by drawing benefits when they are not entitled to them, I do not know how the Minister will get over that difficulty. We all know it is happening and I believe it is happening in a big way. The man who is employed is grumbling because he knows the other fellow is supposed to be unemployed but is not, and is drawing unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit. Unless the Minister is prepared to assign more officers to see that this abuse does not take place, I do not see any way in which the present Bill can be implemented.

I do not think there is any abuse as far as children's allowances, old-age pensions or blind pensions are concerned. The abuse is in relation to unemployment assistance and unemployment benefits. There are people drawing those who have work, and worse than that, a card is not being stamped for them because it cannot be. Their next door neighbour who is working has to pay his portion of a stamp, his income tax and everything else. This is causing much discontent among the workers throughout the country. If the Minister can do anything to help that I would be very grateful. Again, I welcome the Bill.

I should like, to a certain extent, to welcome the Bill. I am not satisfied that it is necessary to increase the fines and penalties. The number of people involved with the social welfare code is quite large; the number who commit offences and find themselves in court is very small.

People can be uncharitable. Very often somebody would assist a neighbour. It is not unusual in the country for a man who is drawing unemployment to go into a farm field and help a neighbour. At present people are becoming uncharitable. They say: "There is somebody working who is drawing unemployment." That is not always true. As somebody who lives in rural Ireland—I am sure many others here are of the same opinion— I believe those irregularities are not as numerous as people say. The number of defaults by employers is very small if there are any because every employer is conscious of what would happen if his employee became ill or goes to other employment. He knows the default would be observed and the charge should be made.

As regards making false statements in making a claim for old-age pension, those claims are all investigated. First, you have a local committee which, in itself, is a source of information. Everybody knows exactly what John Walsh or Kate Ryan, as the case may be, has when he or she applies and the neighbours will know, because they are on the committee. The inspector at a later stage carries out an investigation. I have never yet met anyone who got a pension who did not qualify for it. On the contrary, I suspect the investigation is too rigid. I often felt people got a raw deal.

Uncharitable people talk a lot about people involved with social welfare because they are the underprivileged people. But very often offences are committed by people who are not living on social welfare. Government subsidies and schemes are very often abused. In view of the number of people associated with social welfare and the smaller number associated with other schemes, there is great credit due to the social welfare people because of the very few offences. We should be more charitable. I have always found people to be very careful about their claims, even giving information that perhaps would militate against them. Every public representative from time to time has filled forms for old-age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions and so on. People at all times give him the full particulars. I doubt that it is necessary to increase the fines or penalties.

I should like to welcome the Bill. As the Parliamentary Secretary has said, it is largely a technical Bill and detailed examination would really be out of order even at a later stage than the present Second Reading. The general spirit of the Bill has already been welcomed with reservations, some of which I share. I agree with the two Senators who have already spoken that rigour of the pursuit of defrauders or defaulters in terms of the old-age pension and blind pension disability area of the scheme is out of proportion both to the malice of their intentions, the clarity of their minds and indeed the amount of money that is ultimately involved.

On the other hand, I would argue that the increased penalties are to be welcomed with regard to what I would think to be a far larger body of people than either of the other two speakers visualised, those who do defraud. I am thinking particularly of those who are drawing unemployment and are at the same time working. The two Senators who have spoken seemed to draw their experience from the rural areas. I would totally agree with Senator O'Brien that the case of a man who goes in to help a farmer in a field in the course of a day is hardly worth talking about, but there are many in the city areas for whom this kind of fraud is almost a way of life. I come across this in my limited suburban experience in the course of any day, people come in, who are on unemployment and do what is known as "nixers". The philosophy of the "nixer" is not only a very widespread philosophy but a very widespread practice and involves a very great deal of money. I support the Parliamentary Secretary in bringing these people to book. These people are often drawing their money from far less privileged people who are in employment and making far less money and who are paying increasing taxes in order to support them in having the best of both worlds.

Furthermore, there is no great feeling among us—this is something which I would emphasise to the Parliamentary Secretary—of horror about this. On page 3 there is a very admirable statement in this very well put speech which reflects a certain amount of natural moral indignation. It reads:

Employers and workers as a whole, as well as the general taxpayer, are contributors to the Social Insurance Fund and a failure, for example, of an individual employer to meet his liabilities is not something that concerns only the Government. It is also an offence against all the other contributors, those who fail and so forth.

Of course it is but I do not think that is accepted by the conscience of the nation as being a serious offence of any kind. There is a kind of Christy Mahon syndrome at work here; if you can defraud the Government in this way it is a rather clever and an almost glamorous activity. Here what is needed is a good deal of publicity. The Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned in the last paragraph that he wants the spirit of this Bill to be one that does not deter people from their proper rights in the matter while discouraging fraud. That is the ideal one is aiming at. It could be argued that an ombudsman and an increase in the citizen advice committees in order to enlighten people with regard to their rights could be a future way of seeing to that.

With regard to these increased penalties, there is an opportunity now with the passage of this Bill for the Government to give these penalties their full publicity. They are very considerable penalties and if only a small number of people are brought to book they will make pretty big headlines if, in fact, it is discovered that they are going to be fined sums or imprisoned to the degree that this measure provides for. In other words, I would suggest a large range of publicity for the measure, number one, and indeed for the penalties and, side by side with it, a wider sense of publicity and education of the public to the fact that the man who is claiming unemployment and is, at the same time, working has his hand in all our pockets. Very often he has his hand in the pockets of the most underprivileged of our employees.

With these reservations, I welcome the Bill. To sum up, I would say that the people who are defrauding in this deliberate and consistent way should be pursued with more rigour and there should be a little more tenderness shown to those far more vulnerable people who are old, blind or disabled who may be guilty of comparatively small peccadillos within the range of the system.

I welcome the Bill. Irrespective of what system there is there will be abuses. There are critics of the social welfare system who lay emphasis at all times on the abuses of the system. While not ignoring abuses, I think they can be exaggerated. On occasion these criticisms are made by people who will never have to go to the unemployment exchange or who will never have to wait on a cheque from the Social Welfare Department and it is very easy for them to be critical of recipients of social welfare.

It is necessary to update the fines and penalties for abuses. As I said, abuses will occur in any system. Our main problem is the lack of education and I agree with the last Senator in that. It is anti-social behaviour. People who abuse the system are bad, but the people who employ them, knowing that they are abusing a system and they themselves are getting away without paying for a stamp, are acting anti-socially too. We must get the message to these people also. This non-stamping of cards is fairly prevalent and it is probably because of the occupation I hold that I get so many complaints of unstamped cards. This has also grown in the last few years. Whether or not a person is entitled to see a card, at times he demands to see his card. If an employee does not see his stamped card, he should report to the social welfare inspector. But I know of two cases where no action was taken for several months and the man involved found himself without any benefit for quite a long time.

I welcome the Bill and I hope it will go some way towards eliminating some of the abuses. I think, in the main, anti-social behaviour at any level should be publicised and an effort made to eliminate it altogether.

I welcome the Bill, with a few reservations. I agree with the other Senators that those who are guilty of abusing the social welfare code should be punished. This is something to be deplored by the whole community. Whilst saying this, I would like to draw to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention the fact which, to me, is far more serious that there are several people who apply for unemployment assistance and especially disability allowance who are waiting for months—my next door neighbour was waiting for five months—for some assistance. Only for the generosity and the kindness of his neighbours that man would probably be in his grave today. On that side of social welfare I would prefer that we be lenient rather than harsh. I would prefer five people to escape than one innocent person to be deprived of social welfare even for one week. I cannot see why there cannot be some emergency system when somebody applies for social welfare and, if it is found that the person should not have got assistance then action should be taken. Nobody goes to an assistance officer or applies for any social welfare benefit if he does not need it.

The point was made about "nixers". There are people who, without doing any "nixers", are better off unemployed than working. I know of quite a few cases. The minute they take a job with a marginal income their rents are increased and their medical card taken away. Where there are marginal cases like that it should be made more worth while for the person to take up work than to be idle.

I brought to the Parliamentary Secretary's notice previously the case of illegitimate children. I cannot see why these children cannot get enough——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator, I will have to bring you back to the contents of the Bill.

I may not get a chance again of bringing these things to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sure the Senator will.

I believe illegitimate children are penalised by not getting this allowance as an orphans' pension. The point was made by Senator Ryan about over-investigation. I totally agree with him. I agree also that it is believed that some of the assistance is got out of the assistance officer's pocket. We should have a certain amount of sympathy for most of the recipients and applicants because they are the poorer sections of the community. Most of them have not had the educational chances which we have had.

The Parliamentary Secretary has tried to make the rules and forms as simple as possible and I welcome this but, simple as they are, I still believe that those who have to seek this assistance are very slow in filling in their forms. They are not as aware, as the Parliamentary Secretary may think, of their rights and I do not think we should come down on them like a ton of bricks in any case. They should get every assistance in filling those forms, which they do not get at the moment. If they were getting this assistance they would not be going to their local county councillors, TDs, and Senators to help them fill in the forms. While the Parliamentary Secretary might think it is a very easy job to fill in those forms, for those who have not had the benefit of education it is far more complicated than the Parliamentary Secretary believes it to be.

I still believe that those who knowingly make false statements and receive benefits to which they are not entitled should be penalised but, at the same time, we should have a certain amount of leniency.

With other Senators I welcome this Bill. I accept the arguments put forward for it by the Parliamentary Secretary, that it is an attempt to fortify the provisions of the social welfare code by preventing abuse of them. As always, I welcome the way in which the Parliamentary Secretary introduces a Bill in this House where his speech introducing it sets out the background, the particular intent of the Bill and also a very welcome concern for the possible conflict of interests to which it could give rise. For example, I think it is important in bringing in a Bill to control abuses, and therefore dealing with penalties and technical legal provisions, that the emphasis should be on reinforcing the code and not creating a climate either of persistent abuse of the code or one which is adverse to the whole structure of the code. I would very much agree with his concluding remarks where he said:

It is, therefore, obvious that the social welfare system must be based on a number of intrinsic elements. These include the full recognition of the dignity of every individual, the fostering of the rights of both individuals and family units and the development of absolute openness and accessibility in the working of the system. Such considerations make the need to bring forward legislative proposals such as these contained in the present Bill most painful. There is always a danger that in defending and protecting the integrity of the code and the money of both contributors and taxpayers a negative and distasteful atmosphere in the whole operation of social welfare may be created.

The Parliamentary Secretary added that he wanted to avoid this.

In the way in which he has introduced the Bill he has avoided that particular aspect but there is another aspect of a social welfare Bill of this sort which has not been sufficiently appreciated. This Bill has been introduced as a technical Bill and has been commented on as a technical Bill by the Senators who have spoken. By technical in that context they mean highly legal, highly concerned with penalties, prohibitions and with controlling abuses. This brings me to the substantial point I would like to make before going on to consider some of the provisions relating to penalties, namely, that the whole social welfare system is not sufficiently the province or concern of lawyers. There are two very decided views on this. Many people would feel it is inappropriate and wrong that the social welfare code should be dragged into the world of lawyers which can tend to be narrow and legalistic, where there can be delays and emphasis on procedural difficulties and so on.

It is necessary to appreciate the pervasive scope of social welfare legislation, the immense significance it has in the lives of people at every stage of their development, whether it is children's allowances, old age pensions, pensions for the blind or unemployment assistance. Most practising lawyers are totally ignorant of these provisions from a legal point of view; they do not get involved in giving advice on them, they do not engage themselves in legal analysis of, or home work about them, or in examining case law on social welfare legislation. We are not the only country where this has happened. In Britain there is an increasing awareness, among more thoughtful lawyers, that this is a very serious lacuna for lawyers more than for those involved in the social welfare code. Lawyers are tending to allow themselves to be trapped in their own narrowness, to confine their horizons too narrowly.

There are exceptions to this and I would like to refer briefly to a very interesting analysis by Lord Scarman, Chairman of the Scarman Commission at one time. In a series of Hamlyn Lectures he pointed up the challenge faced by lawyers at the moment in responding to the vastly expanding systems of social welfare, the types of claims, the penalties for abuses, the system of rights and entitlements for citizens but with no legal advice or infrastructure there to fortify and proclaim those rights. On page 34 of the publication of the Hamlyn Lectures under the title English Law—The New Dimension, he talks about the social challenge and he goes on:

When freedom was found to leave the problems of the weak and the socially exploited unsolved, the law changed direction under the guidance of thinkers such as Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. Then came the changes in the substantive law, e.g. the nineteenth-century development of the rights of men, women and children in the fields of employment, property, and family life.

But now more is seen to be required; the State has become a welcome intruder into the social life of the community with its money and its administration, erecting the social security system as an integral part of the welfare state. The management and control of the social security system represent one of the great modern challenges to the law's flexibility in the pursuit of survival. On this aspect of the social challenge the law's response has been, so far, hesitant and confused. There are two basic problems: is it desirable that the social security system should be subjected to "the legal treatment"—i.e. advice, assistance, and control? If it is, has the legal system, as we know it, the flexibility to meet the challenge? There is the strong possibility of a qualified answer to the first question, which would then raise the consequential question: to what extent should the social security system be tied into the general legal system?

Then he goes on, and this is the key aspect of what I want to say later:

First the facts, The truth is that the system of social security is so far removed from the practice of the law that very few lawyers have any but the haziest idea of its nature and content. Ignorance of the field to be covered is a poor beginning for the establishment there of the rule of law: but this is where we begin.

Then he goes on to analyse the pervasive effect not just of a single system but of overlapping and interlocking systems of social welfare; of the establishing of an intricate code of entitlements to citizens but completely outside the normal range of law as lawyers see it, which they would consider to be concerned with advising citizens on their rights. Their practice does not impinge at all on this whole area of the social welfare code. Then he goes on to look at the other aspect of it which is, to some extent, dealt with in this Bill, that the agencies of the social welfare code encroach on citizens in a very significant way. I intend to come specifically to the degree of encroachment by inspectors, for example, who have reasonable cause to suspect some abuses. Again this is not coming to the attention of lawyers even in the civil liberties context in a way in which it would if it were not part of what they regard as being completely outside their terms of reference and their experience of the social welfare code.

It is time that more serious consideration was given to this very definite lacuna in the attitude of lawyers. One illustration of this is posed by the provision of section 3 (6) of the Bill. Section 3 provides for amendments of certain social welfare provisions, in particular, for the inspection of premises and other places where there is a possibility of abuse. Subsection (6) states:

The premises and places liable to inspection under this section are any premises or places where an inspector has reasonable grounds for believing that any persons are or have been employed and any premises or places where an inspector has reasonable grounds for believing that any insurance cards or any other documents relating to persons in employment are kept.

It is the second part of the sentence which is extremely far-reaching. I have put down an amendment to try to limit its scope. It means that if an inspector has reasonable grounds for believing that any person has brought insurance cards or any other documents relating to persons in employment back to his private house, that house becomes a premises or place that can be inspected.

There is no further legal provisions for getting a warrant or for applying to the courts for permission to enter. So, one is dependent on the attitude of an inspector as to what is a reasonable belief and what are reasonable grounds. I am all for closing loopholes where there might be abuse of the social welfare code but this provision goes way beyond the normal bounds of one of the basic tenets of civil liberty, the protection of a person's private home from abuses, including over-reaching by State agencies.

It seems to me that as it stands at the moment section 3 (6) provides for a high degree of over-reaching and of invasion of the private home of a person because an inspector of the Department reasonably believes that that person may be contravening the provisions of the social welfare code or may have insurance cards or other documents on the premises. I am not saying that the inspector may not under any circumstances have that power but it should be as in the case of a member of the Garda Síochána. If he wishes to enter a person's private house if he believes there is some criminal matter there, a warrant is required. Similarly, an inspector of the Department of Social Welfare should require either some equivalent of a warrant or the consent of the court before entering a private dwelling. This provision comes quite close to encroaching on the constitutional protection of the dwelling, "that the dwelling of every citizen shall be inviolable". As this subsection stands, the dwelling of every citizen is only inviolable unless an inspector from the Department of Social Welfare has reasonable belief that it may contain insurance stamps. Then it is not inviolable and may be inspected. Any attempt to frustrate the inspector from the Department gives rise to very considerable penalties. It is provided in the same section:

(4) If any person—

(a) wilfully delays or obstructs an inspector in the exercise of any power under this section, or

(b) refuses or neglects to answer any question or to furnish any information or to produce any document when required to do so under this section, or

(c) conceals or prevents or attempts to conceal or prevent any person from appearing before or being examined by a person appointed under this section he shall be guilty of an offence under this section....

On summary conviction he will face a penalty of £500 or a year's imprisonment, and on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £2,000 or two years' imprisonment. There are substantial penalties facing the citizen who may have felt that his home was inviolable and that he could resist an inspector from the Department who had a reasonable belief that social security stamps were in that person's home.

The other aspect of the Bill on which I should like some clarification from the Parliamentary Secretary relates to the minimum penalty on summary conviction. It is provided in this section, and it is one of the overall provisions of the Bill, that on summary conviction for various offences a person shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £500. Did the Parliamentary Secretary get an opinion from the Attorney General's office or from some other agency as to this minimum fine for a summary offence? The reason for my asking this is that, quite recently in the House, when we were discussing the Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Bill, 1975 which is now an Act, penalties were provided for in section 20. On conviction a summary penalty for an offence under that section shall be a fine not exceeding £200 or, at the discretion of the court, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or both.

I have not got the precise reference, but I recall the Minister for Justice in moving that Bill and in referring to that section as saying that £200 was the maximum fine for summary offences. I should like clarification on what is the maximum fine for a summary offence because there is too much vagueness about it. At a time of inflation it may well be that £500 would be considered reasonable as a minimum penalty for a summary offence. There appears to be a different view among different people. This point also came up recently at the Joint Committee on European Community Legislation where a statutory instrument had been made under the European Communities Act, 1972, and the Minister only has power to create summary offences. The question of what constitutes the maximum fine for a summary offence was raised. I would welcome some clarification from the Parliamentary Secretary on that point.

I should like to reaffirm my substantive point: that this type of Bill brings home the extent to which the social welfare code necessarily becomes a complex code riddled with various types of penalties, obligations and responsibilities, riddled also with rights of citizens and entitlements of citizens. It is a sad reflection on lawyers and on the legal system if they operate totally apart from the code, and if their role is not flexible enough to respond to and modify some of the legalistic aspects of a narrower approach to law which has excluded it and has created an atmosphere where people try to turn away from a narrow aspect of lawyers and the law expressly to avoid some of the deficiencies in the present system.

I noticed that the Parliamentary Secretary said that his Department have made strenuous efforts in recent times, through various forms of publicity, to bring home the various types of rights and entitlements which individuals can claim. Is this his own or his Department's off-the-cuff assessment, that there has been a considerable improvement in genuine knowledge about what beneficiaries are entitled to, or has there been a more scientific monitoring, or some sort of broad-based study or monitoring of whether citizens are more aware of their rights, or are more facilitated in pursuing them? I agree that there has been considerable complaint down the years that the attitude has tended to be a mean one, minimising knowledge of rights rather than encouraging people to explore their personal position and ensure that in making their claim they claim the full benefits they are entitled to under the social welfare scheme. I would welcome clarification on the points. I will put in at once the amendment that I have so that it can be circulated without holding up this Bill. Section 3 (6) is very broad and an undesirable encroachment on civil liberties.

Like previous speakers I welcome this Bill in the sense that it is a serious effort to do something about the abuses of the social welfare system by significantly increasing the penalties. In the past the number of people who were brought before the courts in regard to these abuses has been very small indeed. Unless the Minister is prepared to put more personnel from his Department into the field to ensure that the people who abuse the system are brought before the courts, I doubt very much whether the increases he proposes will improve the situation.

We are all well aware that there are people who never claim social welfare benefits. The honest-to-God, down-to-earth worker who throughout his lifetime has not had any ill-health, has never had to make application for social welfare benefits. We also know that there are a number of people who seem to specialise in drawing any benefit they can under the social welfare code. There is no use in saying there are not abuses. Every public representative knows that there are. It is up to the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister to put more personnel into the field to ensure that abuses are wiped out once and for all.

It has been stated here today by previous speakers that a worker may be drawing unemployment benefit and, at the same time, getting two or three days' employment during the week. We are all well aware that this is happening. The Department should ensure that people are not in a position to do this. It is happening on a large scale, even in rural areas. This is the fault of the Department in not ensuring that enough personnel are employed in this area. I know one person who did not realise how well off he could be until he received unemployment benefit. He had been an honest and hard worker prior to that. Since he has discovered the amount of his social welfare benefits he is a different type of worker. All he needs now is any excuse to stay out of work.

This is something that the Department will have to wipe out. I know that it is on a small scale but it is happening. It is up to the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister to ensure that it is discontinued. I would sincerely ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that more personnel are put into the field to wipe out these abuses. He should also concentrate on the employers who are abusing the system. The number of employers who have been brought before the courts up to now is very small. Indeed, the employers who get into financial difficulties are those who do not pay their contribution towards the stamp. During the present financial recession the number of employers in this category is increasing all the time. I am glad to see that in this legislation the Minister will be in a position to recoup outstanding contributions. I would sincerely ask the Parliamentary Secretary to put more personnel into the field to wipe out the existing abuses.

I am glad to say that, in general, all Senators who spoke welcomed the introduction of the Bill with certain reservations. Indeed, in my opening speech I indicated that I also found it distasteful that it was necessary to bring in this type of legislation before the Oireachtas. I am convinced that only a relatively small number of people, either employers or employees, abuse the system. The amount of publicity and the number of general statements alleging certain offences against the system has made it necessary and, in my opinion, at this stage of the development of the social welfare code desirable, to bring in legislation that will reassure the vast number of our people that we are conscious of abuses against the system, no matter how small the number of people engaged in them may be, and that we are determined to ensure that, as far as possible, these abuses will cease.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary have any breakdown of figures of actual abuse, even in general terms, and the amount of money going astray or going into the wrong hands?

I can only give figures for detected abuses. The ones that we have not detected are the ones that we could not calculate. There were approximately 450 prosecutions in a 12-month period for abuses of the code. That would not be the full number of abuses that were detected because, in many cases, where we can ensure that there is no continuance of it, where we can recover any money that may have gone astray, it would not be deemed desirable or necessary to proceed through the courts.

I was saying that there has been a large amount of publicity and wild allegations have been made against the system. It is only fair to say that Senator Cowen was the exception in that he made a vague general statement about abuses of the system. If Senator Cowen or anyone else is aware of a specific abuse against the system he has an undoubted duty to bring it to the notice of the authorities. If he is aware of a man who is unemployed and who has been offered reasonable employment, that man will be disqualified under the existing law, never mind the new law, from benefits if he refuses to take up suitable employment.

This kind of general accusation against people on social welfare—is slanderous. It is slander against the vast majority of people who reluctantly have to resort to social welfare. There was reference to people making social welfare a way of life. I regard people who are unemployed, not as dishonest people, but as victims of the kind of society in which we operate. One would not be condemned for insuring his house against fire and for claiming insurance in the event of fire.

I was condemning those who abuse the code.

In a very vague and general way, but this type of vague and general condemnation has built up a climate of opinion which is militating against people on social welfare. This is a very undesirable development. We are entitled to a little more responsibility towards these unfortunate people so far as our public representatives are concerned.

Why bring in the Bill at all?

I have said why I brought in the Bill. Irrespective of the number of people who may be engaged in this practice, it is a highly undesirable and anti-social thing and I do not think we can judge legislation or penalties by the number of people who may be engaged in breaking the law or anticipating breaking the law. The duty of the Oireachtas as I see it, is to fix maximum penalties so as to indicate to the courts the seriousness with which we view a particular breaking of our legal code.

While the number of people who abuse the code is relatively few, this does not take away from the seriousness of the offence. Senator Ryan in his opening remarks mentioned that through the failure and neglect of employers to stamp cards, a grave injustice can be perpetrated against employees in a particular concern. He mentioned that when someone becomes unemployed or ill, although he has being paying his contribution week by week—it having been deducted by the employer—when he comes to claim what is rightfully his, he finds that he is not entitled to it by virtue of the fact that the employer has put the money in his own pocket. Not only is such an employer defrauding the social welfare fund, but he is also systematically robbing his own employees and, possibly, their dependants.

We have devised a system whereby once we are satisfied that there has been no collusion between the employer and the employee in the non-stamping of cards full credit is given to the employee. It would not be correct to say that there are extremely long delays before that benefit or credit is established. I have been impressed by the short duration of the time that elapses before the officers in the Department have been able to establish the fact that there was no collusion and that benefits are paid in full to people who through no fault of their own find that their stamps have not been affixed to their cards. The difficulty of policing the whole area is emphasised by what I said in my opening remarks—that there are 88,000 registered employers in the country and somewhat in excess of a half a million people involved in weekly payments from the Social Welfare Department.

I have reason to hope it will be possible to extend the law whereby in so far as an individual employee has a right to examine his card, this can be extended to allow an accredited representative of a trade union to inspect all the cards on behalf of their members in a particular employment. This will go a long way towards easing the problem.

Many Deputies stated that while they welcome the Bill they find that the penalties may be too severe in some cases. Children's allowances and old-age pensions were mentioned in this regard. The purpose of this Bill, and my earnest hope is, that no one will be prosecuted under its provisions. I hope that by virtue of the fact that this legislation is going through the Oireachtas these maximum penalties may be imposed by the courts, the Bill will act as a deterrent against anyone who in the past, or in the present, or who may be contemplating indulging in any of the various abuses that I described in the provisions of the Bill. If certain cases arise and if there are extenuating circumstances— the only thing that we here are doing is laying down maximum penalties— all the other relevant facts can be taken, and should, indeed, be taken into consideration by the courts. I am sure that not only justice, but justice tempered with compassion and mercy, will be exercised should any of the cases arise about which Deputies or Senators have reservations.

With regard to the abuse of social welfare—it is like everything else— you can pass laws but unless there is an appreciation by the general public of what is involved, the law in itself will be of very little benefit in my opinion. I accept Senator Martin's contention that the solution to the problem lies in the area of education. I do not understand why we in this country seem to view anyone who can engage in what is, if not actually illegal, definitely immoral practices— and I am not using the word "immoral" in the context of sexual practices. As a society, we seem to look up to such people. This attitude runs down through the whole system. The greater the fiddle that one seems to be engaged in, the greater the admiration of the Irish people would appear to be for that person.

Someone engaged in land speculation, for instance, who might stay strictly within the law but who because of his particular type of operation, will condemn people and whole families to live in debt for 25 to 35 years and who accumulates a lot of money for himself is engaging in an immoral practice but we as a society apparently do not realise this. Instead, we look up to that individual. It is about time we realised that these people are dipping very deep into our pockets and causing an awful lot of misery to individual people and families in our society. There is also the question of mergers, all sorts of very dubious practices engaged in higher finance, in mergers of companies where substantial profits are made overnight for a few individuals, with 300 or 400 people put out of employment. One must consider not only the effect on them but that on their families also. We do not condemn the people who engage in these practices. Again, by some curious definition of moral behaviour, we appear to look up to them.

I would suggest the bishops have a lot to answer for in defining morality too narrowly.

I accept that. We seem to think that morality has something to do with sexual behaviour and that there are no other facets whatsoever. This applies also to people engaged in abuses of the social welfare system. The money involved is not as great; the number of people engaged in it is relatively small. But the principle is the same and we apparently have exactly the same attitude towards them —if a fellow fiddles his income tax he is a smart fellow; if a fellow is abusing the social welfare system he is a hard man, a clever boy; if some fellow is engaged in all sorts of practices bringing total misery to individuals and families in our society, he is a very clever fellow; he can make an awful lot of money. It has gone right through our society and in my opinion is doing our society untold harm. It is engaged in mostly by people who have had the privilege and benefit, at the expense of others, of higher education, all sorts of advantages denied people who usually have to resort to social welfare payments.

Senator Robinson raised two issues. One was the involvement of the legal profession in the social welfare code and the other—in respect of which I understand an amendment is being submitted—regarding the right of entry by an inspector of the Department into premises in which he believes, or has reason to believe, documentation in relation to social welfare may be kept. I cannot accept the amendment. I understand and appreciate fully why the amendment was submitted. On reflection I think the Senator will see a very close connection between the two issues raised. Unfortunately, the legal profession is not as far removed from the social welfare code as the Senator seems to imply. As far as employers and people with the wherewithal are concerned, the legal profession is very much involved in the social welfare code. They are very much involved in advising employers of every possible legal loophole that can be availed of to evade their responsibilities and evade, if not the letter of the law, undoubtedly the spirit of the law.

It is for that reason it is necessary to have this provision. I accept fully the reservations that Senators may have about it but I would hope also they would accept the very unpleasant fact that it is necessary to have it there. There is also the protection that an inspector must have reasonable grounds for believing that relevant documentation is kept on certain premises and that, in the event of the matter going to court—to which the occupier of such a premises is entitled—the onus would be on the inspector to satisfy the court that he had reasonable grounds for suspecting that such documentation was there. Therefore it is not an open cheque to inspectors of the Department. Indeed already in our social welfare code, under the law obtaining for many years, inspectors of the Department have the right to enter into private homes to ascertain whether or not a domestic is employed there. It is not an innovation; it is a widening of the definition of existing law under the social welfare code.

I hope the House will accept that explanation while I appreciate their reservations.

Question put and agreed to.
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