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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Mar 1977

Vol. 86 No. 5

Bula Limited (Acquisition of Shares) Bill, 1977: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before dealing with the immediate subject matter of the Bill I would like to outline two important background areas which are essential for an understanding of the reasons for and intent of this legislation.

Firstly, the policy aspects. As Members of this House will know well, it is only in relatively recent times that we have begun to realise the potential of our country for the large-scale development of minerals. While there are historical reasons for our delayed entry to the minerals production field, the position is of course also related to new exploration techniques and new geological knowledge and interpretations.

Although there were, notably during the war years, some efforts by the State to become actively involved in mining development, the position when the present Government took office was that the role of the State was and had for decades been largely a passive one. Licences were given to private interests to explore for minerals and, when commercial discoveries were made, the development of the deposit was left to those interests, the State taking a small royalty where the minerals were in State ownership.

The position as regards ownership of minerals in this country is, by the way, not widely appreciated. Although it is not possible to be absolutely precise I can say that about 40 per cent of mineral rights are clearly in the ownership of the State and the State would probably be able to establish good title to a further 25 per cent; the remaining 35 per cent is privately owned. The practice under the Act of 1940 was that where it was established that workable deposits of minerals were in State ownership a lease was granted to the developer. Where ownership of the minerals was in private hands, that is, not either owned by the State or by the proposed developer, the mineral rights were acquired by a compulsory acquisition order and those right were then leased by the State to the developer. Compensation to the owner was either settled by agreement or by a mining board set up under the Act.

Over the past few years many Governments in minerals-producing countries have become increasingly dissatisfied with the situation where the State had little or no say in the development of the mineral resources of the country. Accordingly, again as a worldwide phenomenon, the principle of State involvement, either on its own or in partnership with private interests, in the development of minerals became increasingly common. There are a number of strong arguments in favour of State participation. Firstly, if the State is to depend solely on royalties based on output as a means of getting a fair return from the minerals, that policy is not going to be satisfactory either for the State or for the developer. Participation by the State, combined with a reasonable level of royalty and fair and comprehensive taxation arrangements, provides a flexible system which ensures an adequate share of the "take" for the State and at the same time enables the developer to assess its impact on the economics of the operation.

Participation provides the State with a valuable insight into and understanding of the business of minerals exploration and development. This is most important because the State cannot properly exercise its general role of control and supervision, nor can it optimise the desirable degree of national involvement, unless it understands the industry.

Now, the background to the Navan orebody. To appreciate the position which I found when I became Minister it is necessary to go back to the earlier events which followed the original discovery of the orebody at Navan. The mineral ownership of the orebody was broadly typical of the general position which I have outlined. The major part of it was State-owned but a very substantial proportion lay under lands owned by the late Mr. Wright who also owned the mineral rights. The Tara interests were unable to reach agreement with Mr. Wright on mutually acceptable terms for the acquisition of his mineral rights and the then Government set in motion the procedure of compulsory acquisition. However, the people involved in Bula Holdings and Mr. Wright entered into an arrangement as a result of which the land and mineral rights were acquired by Bula Limited in which the shares were held by Bula Holdings and Mr. Wright. The Government order which sought to acquire these rights for the State as a preliminary to granting mining rights to Tara was contested in the courts and in March, 1974, the Supreme Court confirmed an earlier judgment of the High Court that the order made by my predecessor was invalid. Earlier in 1971 an undertaking had been granted by the previous Government to grant a lease to Tara in respect of State-owned minerals. No terms or conditions were agreed but the undertaking was, of course, legally binding on me.

The findings of the Supreme Court were considered in my Department in consultation with the Attorney General and in the light of separate legal opinion, and the possible courses of action open to me were examined. There were three possibilities. I could have attempted to make a second order which would inevitably be challenged in further court proceedings. It has been suggested that this course should have been attempted, regardless of the likely consequences. In the light of the court proceedings and the legal opinions which had been obtained the arguments against making a second order were considered to be overwhelming. Even had it been considered appropriate for the Government again to seek to take by compulsion from the Bula people rights which the highest court in the land had confirmed were properly theirs, there was no certainty that the State would succeed in the second attempt. Even if a second order were made and even if it were to survive what would inevitably be protraced court proceedings, there would be the question of compensation. There was every likelihood that in such circumstances the compensation payable would be fixed by reference to the full commercial value of the minerals and such a compensation liability would obviously diminish the interest of the developers on whose behalf the order would have been made by the State. In addition, of course, further legal proceedings would have meant even greater delays in the development of the orebody.

The second possibility which I considered was simply to do nothing about the Bula section of the orebody. This would have left Tara with the mineral rights which the State would lease to them and would leave Bula free to make whatever arrangements were possible or desirable from their point of view. I do not think anybody was, or is, in any doubt about the attitude of the two companies—and of course the people involved—to each other. There was the strong background of mutual ill-feeling which ruled out cooperation between the two. The river Blackwater lies between the two properties and diversion of the river was considered to be necessary both on grounds of safety and so as to avoid having to leave a huge slice of orebody undeveloped in the form of a safety pillar sloping outwards on each side of the river bank. It was therefore essential that an effort be made to ensure that the development of this highly valuable national asset —the largest orebody of its kind in Europe—would not either be deferred unduly or else be advanced in a way that sowed the seeds of future disaster.

Furthermore, the Bula people had at all times made it clear that their objective was to establish a native mining operation run and controlled by Irish people. Now at this time exploration and development of Irish minerals was, and still remains, almost exclusively in the hands of external companies and, indeed, one multinational group has established a totally dominant position on the Irish scene. I have always said that we need the multinationals. We need their experience, their technology and their financial capabilities. But we need them as partners and not as masters. This second alternative was therefore contrary to the public interest and thus unacceptable to me on a number of grounds.

I decided on a course which would avoid the unacceptable approaches and the serious inherent risks involved in either making a new order or standing aside from the situation. The course I decided upon would ensure that the State would have an accepable stake in, and revenue from, the development of the entire orebody, both State and private sections. It would enable the State to influence the orderly development of the orebody as a whole, in the national interest, and also to influence the Blackwater diversion issue which was such a potentially divisive matter between the two companies. It would enable the State to exercise a measure of control over the rate of depletion of the orebody. It would ensure that supplies of concentrates would be guaranteed for an Irish smelter when established.

The central requirement in the case of each company was a 25 per cent free equity stake for the State to be provided for in the case of Tara through a lease arrangement and in Bula's case in an agreement—the other important rights of the State to which I have referred, also being covered. The key to this entire critical package was 25 per cent free stake in the Bula portion of the orebody. Since the State had no rights in respect of the Bula private minerals, this had to be negotiated. From this resulted the agreement to acquire, in addition to the 25 per cent free interest, an additional 24 per cent interest to be purchased by the State at a price to be fixed by an independent board of valuers. I believe that in a mixed economy such as ours it is proper that participation by the State should be on a partnership basis and the proposed acquisition of 49 per cent share in Bula marked a significant evolution in the State's resources policy.

The agreement with Bula was therefore the key which I needed to secure participation in the Tara portion of the orebody. It has been suggested that I was free to impose any conditions I wished in the Tara lease. That is not so. An undertaking to grant a lease had been given to Tara by the previous Government and while I was negotiating the terms of that lease with Tara legal proceedings were instituted by the company. These proceedings sought to establish that I was not entitled to attach terms which were not of a kind which had hitherto applied to State mining leases. Participation by the State was obviously not one of these previous terms. Following protracted and difficult negotiations the company ultimately agreed to afford me a 25 per cent free equity interest in Tara Mines Limited and in due course the court proceedings were withdrawn.

Having explained the underlying policy and the background to this case in some detail I should now like to say two things. I have always said that these arrangements are not ideal. Of course they are not. The ideal arrangement would be that the total orebody would be developed as a single undertaking by an organisation which would be predominantly Irish, in which the State would have a significant role, and where all the profits from the development would remain in Ireland. But how can one talk about an ideal solution when what I was left with was a tangled mess with two proposed developers who were on the worst possible terms with each other and where no one could see when and how this valuable national asset would be brought to development.

The second point I want to make is that the Bula agreement cannot be considered as an isolated matter. It is, as I have said, part of a larger package which gives the State a free 25 per cent stake in the whole orebody and as a result of which a share of the total profits from the orebody, approaching 70 per cent overall, will accrue to the State. When the initial development costs of the operations have been paid off, the State take will be about £25 million to £30 million each year in present money terms. There are also the important provisions about cooperation between the two mining companies, including the river diversion issue, the measure of control over the rate of depletion of the resource and the assurance of supplies of concentrates for an Irish smelter. And there is a further point which must be taken into account. Another objective which I set myself was to get a new initiative under way in exploration for oil and gas in our Continental Shelf. In order to provide for an acceptable level of revenue for the State and to secure for the State a position from which it could influence developments, a significant level of State participation in petroleum development was absolutely essential. I considered it vital therefore that when we came to negotiate with the international oil companies the principle of State participation in the development of our natural resources should have been definitively established. In fact, in the negotiations with the oil companies I was able to secure provision for participation by the State up to 50 per cent on extremely attractive terms.

I should now like to deal specifically with the proposed participation in Bula. I might first give the Seanad some idea about the Bula minerals. Although the Bula portion of the orebody is considerably smaller than the portion leased to Tara, it is, never-theless, large by any standards. In 1974 there were only two lead and zinc mines in Europe bigger than Bula and in the whole world there were only 17 bigger lead and zinc mines, and that is ranking in a world list of over 100 mines. Of the total new lead and zinc projects being considered worldwide in 1975 Bula was No. 4. Estimated ore reserves of Bula are not less than 15m tonnes with an average ore grading of the order of 10 per cent. The annual crude ore mining rate will be about 1m tonnes per annum. Construction employment is expected to be around 400, production employment about 250 and an estimated annual pay roll of £1.3 million.

The shares of Bula Limited—the mining company—have been held by Bula Holdings, an unlimited company, 80 per cent, and the estate of the late Mr. Wright, 20 per cent. The agreement to acquire a 25 per cent free interest in Bula Limited and a further 24 per cent on a paid basis was concluded with Bula Holdings and Mr. Wright. The four individuals now named in the Bill are also parties to the agreement. They are described in the agreement as "convenantors" and, as the people who controlled Bula Holdings, they subscribed to the agreement to guarantee the performance of the obligations of the company.

The price to be paid for the 24 per cent paid interest has been fixed by an independent board of valuers. The board which fixed the consideration was appointed by the Institute of Arbitrators in London. When, in a moment. I come to discuss the valuation issue, I think it will be clear that in view of the extreme difficulty of reaching agreement on a valuation figure the only alternative open to the parties was to provide for valuation by an independent body. Fifty per cent of the consideration for the share purchase is payable from a current date and the balance by two further equal instalments over the next two years. The payments are to be made to Bula Holdings and the estate of Mr. Wright.

It has been suggested that payment of the purchase money for the 24 per cent interest should be made into the mining company, Bula Limited, and be used as development finance for the project. This might appear to be the ideal situation if one were in a position to achieve it. The object of the arbitration proceedings was to establish the value of the thing which each shareholder was parting with and in respect of which he would have to be compensated. The minerals were privately owned by the shareholders and their right to them had been established by the highest court of the land. They were free to dispose of them in whatever way they wished and clearly if they were going to part with them they would expect to receive the value of them. There is no point in talking about arrangements under which the funds might have been invested in the company. If one were to think of a scheme of that kind it could only be on the basis that the net result was to compensate the shareholders for the dilution of their interest in the enterprise in much the same way as the arbitrators had done.

There has been a very great deal of argument and speculation about the valuation figure since the amount of the arbitrators' valuation was announced. As I have said, the board was appointed by the Institute of Arbitrators in London. The chairman of the board was a lawyer who had considerable experience in arbitration proceedings and who also had experience of dealing with planning matters—and this was, of course, relevant to the Bula case. The other members of the board were a chartered accountant and an engineer, each of whom also had experience in arbitration proceedings. The board invited the two parties to make submissions to it on the valuation which each side considered appropriate and as well as that a number or oral hearings were held. Furthermore, the board had authority to commission their own experts and, in fact, they did so. Taking account of the various valuations which were submitted by both sides and also including other valuations which had emerged at an earlier stage and, indeed, since the board's finding were announced, one can say that the range of figures suggested was from low single figure millions to more than £100 million. This, as I have suggested, is evidence of how exceptionally difficult it would have been for the two parties to negotiate a mutually acceptable valuation.

I think it is fair to say that the very lowest and the very highest valuations may be disregarded since they are, in essence, simply a demonstration of extreme positions and demonstrate the sort of figures which can be produced when the views of either side are pushed to extremes. But disregarding the extreme figures, there still remains a very wide range within which an acceptable valuation could fall. The task of putting a valuation on an undeveloped orebody is obviously extremely complex and difficult. One has to exercise one's judgment about how a wide range of variables will turn out. These variables include the mining plan which will be adopted, the development and operating costs, future metal prices and the relative movement of exchange rates and inflation. Lead and zinc are basically dollar commodities but the operating costs will be incurred largely in sterling.

Even when assumptions have been made about all these it will be necessary to decide how these future cash flows should be discounted so as to arrive at their present value. This, of course, assumes that the preferred approach is to use the DCF technique. It is well known that this technique is used for the purpose of evaluating investment opportunities but the final board room decisions on particular investment projects are not necessarily based solely on the results of DCF calculations. For DCF purposes a discount figure has to be selected which will reflect the time value of money and, as well, the risk factor involved. The provision to be made for risk could vary very widely. It will obviously be affected by the element of risk which has been built into the selection of the variables to which I have referred earlier and furthermore a purchaser's view of the risk factor will almost certainly differ —and possibly differ widely—from the view which would be taken by the owner of the asset.

Each of the two parties to the valuation proceedings commissioned experts to prepare valuations on their behalf. These experts were people of the highest standing with a particular competence in this field but their valuations widely differed. There is no reason why this difference should be seen as reflecting in any way on their competence or integrity, because essentially they were acting in different interests and there could quite legitimately be a very substantial divergence of view as between the two interest involved.

Before I conclude on this question I would like to refer to a particular matter to which I think sufficient weight is not being given in this context. On a conservative estimate the metal content of the Bula orebody is in excess of 1 million tonnes. Taking current lead and zinc prices the value in situ of the metal is of the order of £700 million. Now it can be argued that this figure is not particularly relevant. No one, of course, is suggesting that it should be taken as a commercial valuation but it is the basic figure to which all valuations must ultimately be related. When one takes chunks off it in respect of development and production costs, smelter charges, taxation and so on, one is still left with a very large figure for the total net revenue which must be valued in present-day terms.

Even omitting inflation from the calculations there still remain two significant variables. The revenues from the orebodies, as I have said, are essentially dollar revenues and therefore the size of these future revenues will be affected by the relationship between the dollar and sterling over the years ahead after allowance is made for differences attributable to the relative inflation rates here and in the US. But whatever assumptions one may make about this aspect there is the other crucial question as to what will happen to metal prices, in real terms, over the next couple of decades. I am referring to changes in metal prices which are not in line with changes in price levels generally. Therefore it will be obvious that if metal prices were to increase even marginally faster than other price and cost increases then this factor would very substantially increase the future revenues from the orebody and therefore its present value.

The price relativity as between metals, as well as other commodities, will certainly change significantly over the next couple of decades. Geologists have done calculations to ascertain the different sorts of metals in the earth's crust. From these calculations and making certain other assumptions, including the rate of increase of industrialisation, it becomes possible to make projections as to what resources will run out first. Estimates have been made by all sorts of agencies including agencies of the great powers, by groups concerned with conservation, by economists and businessmen. There can then be a chart drawn up which gives what is called the dynamic resource life for different metals. It is an index and it is dynamic in the sense that it has to make assumptions based on how frequently the metals occur in the earth's crust, what sort of orebodies you will get and various other relevant assumptions.

Take, for instance, cobalt. These predictions indicate that the dynamic resource life of cobalt is 685 years. Taking iron, the figure is over 600 years; taking aluminium, the dynamic resource life is over 200 years. But the least time of all in the dynamic resource index for metals is for zinc and that is just 40 years. Now it is not an unreasonable assumption that a metal with the shortest dynamic resource life of all should increase in price somewhat faster than the average. There are, of course, other factors which must be taken into account and general exercises of this kind must be viewed with some caution. Nevertheless, this position which I have outlined clearly demonstrates that the most qualified and competent experts would be justified in taking widely different views about future trends in zinc prices.

I think it is fair to say that in connection with the proposed Bill the matter which has been the subject of the greatest criticism so far is that the agreement of 12th December, 1975, which is referred to in the Bill, has not been published, or presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas, which would have the same effect. I feel I should explain my position in this regard very fully to the Seanad and I believe that, if my views on this matter are considered dispassionately, it will be agreed that I have acted properly and, in fact, that publication was not an acceptable course.

Bula Limited is a private company and, as such, is entitled, within the constraints of present law, to have its affairs treated on a confidential basis. The acquisition by the State of a 49 per cent interest in the company will not change that status; it will still remain a private company. I have already said that I see participation by the State as a partnership, a partnership between the public sector and private interests. If this were a partnership between two private interests there would be no suggestion from any source that the agreement be published and I am sure that everyone would uphold the right of the parties concerned to full confidentiality in the matter. If the introduction of the State as a minority participant is to be a reason for changing the norms of ordinary business then this puts the State—and the company at a serious disadvantage. This would be a most undesirable development from the State's point of view both in regard to future State participation in the development of our natural resources and in relation to the State's industrial development promotion efforts generally. Minority participation by the State should be treated as a commercial transaction and both the State and its partner must be entitled to the rules of confidentiality which unquestionably apply to commercial agreements of this kind.

It is clear that in the context of the changed policy on natural resources there are no grounds for considering the Bula case as an isolated incident. It would not be in the public interest to do so. During last year I concluded offshore licensing agreements with 11 consortia which included almost every major oil company in the world and a large number of other prominent petroleum interests. These agreements provide for participation by the State and they set out the provisions and conditions which will apply to such participation. It is the widely accepted practice that Governments do not publish these agreements. In fact, when I was preparing for the negotiations with the oil companies I found it extremely difficult to get information about the precise contents of such agreements, even though we had friendly and helpful contacts with certain other Governments which had already concluded detailed agreements with oil companies. In view of the potential which our Continental Shelf has it is of vital importance that the principle of confidentiality for commercial agreements between the State and the private sector should not be compromised.

Again, we have the position where the Industrial Development Authority and other State agencies spend public funds on the acquisition of shares in private companies. The agreements relating to the acquisition of these shares are properly regarded by the agencies concerned as confidential and the legislation governing such transactions does not require that the agreements be published. Here again it would prejudice our industrial promotion efforts if we now demonstrated that the private interests concerned could not rely upon the State to maintain confidentiality as regards the arrangements which they have entered into, or contemplate entering into, with the State.

There is therefore nothing exceptional about a situation where public funds are being made available to give effect to an agreement, the contents of which remain confidential. Indeed, even apart from the question of industrial promotion and natural resources, the position is that public funds vastly in excess of the amount now under consideration are made available to various Ministers or State agencies to be expended under contracts and agreements of various kinds, none of which is published or presented to the Oireachtas.

While therefore I could not agree to publish the terms of the agreement with Bula Limited, I recognise the position may not be satisfactory from the point of view of public representatives. It is patently no solution to the problem to prejudice the Government's position by publishing all such agreements and, as I have said, it is impossible to adduce acceptable reasons for making exceptions. It should not be beyond the capability of the Houses of the Oireachtas to devise a system whereby certain categories of agreements entered into by Ministers or State agencies could be scrutinised in some way which could not result in their publication and I suggest that if there is dissatisfaction with the position in relation to this matter a solution must be found, not by making a potentially damaging exception but by devising a system to deal satisfactorily with particular categories of agreements.

The Bill when enacted will not in any way make the agreement referred to in section 1 law. It is not correct to suggest the Bill proposes to make the agreement the law of the land or that the Bill ratifies the agreement.

It is, as I have said, by no means unusual for Ministers to enter into contractual arrangements with outside parties. When they do so, the legal rights and obligations of the parties arise from the agreements and not from any statutory source. Exactly the same situation will exist in relation to the agreement referred to in the section we are now considering. This Bill when enacted will confer authorisation to carry out the terms of the agreement, but it gives no statutory force to them. Any legal rights and obligations of the parties will continue to arise from the agreement and not from the statute.

I think it will be clear at this stage that my task of securing the approval of the Houses of the Oireachtas for this measure would have been easier had I decided that publication of the agreement was possible. It is, as I have said, a freely negotiated agreement and therefore has provisions which are designed to protect the legitimate interests of both parties. But I am quite satisfied that it is a satisfactory agreement from the point of view of the State; it protects the fundamental interests of the State in a reasonable manner and so far as special rights are concerned, the balance is substantially in favour of the State.

I would like to make one further point on this publication issue. I deliberately chose the open method of introducing a special Bill to enable me to carry through this transaction. By this means I have afforded the Houses of the Oireachtas every opportunity— which to date I may say has been fully availed of—to discuss the proposed participation and its implications. By contrast, it was possible to conclude arrangements under the existing legislation to grant the right to work the State minerals at Navan, which are several times larger and more valuable than the private minerals now under discussion, and there was no formal parliamentary debate.

The Bill which is now before the House is an enabling measure. It authorises me to expend the sum of money specified for the purpose stated. The completion of the contract—that is, the final procedures applicable to the sale and purchase—are matters to be dealt with by qualified experts. The agreement has been properly and carefully drawn up and there is a very considerable number of matters which must be examined and verified in connection with the completion procedures. This is a business for specialists, for people who are qualified and experienced in legal, commercial, financial and accounting practices. It is not possible to have these completion procedures dealt with on the floor of this House or any other public forum nor is it proper that it should be attempted.

Finally, I would like to reiterate that, due to the situation I inherited and the legal difficulties surrounding the orebody, I am convinced that the course I have chosen was the best available option open to me. We have been, to a significant extent, moving into new policy areas in the field of natural resources. Given my objective of obtaining for the people the maximum benefit from the development of the orebody at Navan, I believe that this Bill is a necessary and constructive step. I commend it to the House.

It can be said that there are three main objections to this Bill, objections which leave the Opposition in this House very little option but to vote against it in its present form. First of all, all the evidence suggests that too much was paid for the rights which the Minister proposes to acquire. It is true to say that, like everything else about this Bill, there is very little information available. The second objection to the Bill is the fact that we are being asked to pass a very simple Bill which refers to an agreement but the terms of the agreement are not available to us. In effect, the Minister is saying: "I have an agreement here. Please allow me to pay £9 million odd for rights which I cannot disclose to you." Without going into details it is quite patently unsatisfactory to be asked to give approval to such a Bill.

The third objection to the Bill arises from the objection which I have just mentioned—the fact that, in spite of the refusal of the Minister to give us the terms of the agreement, the terms of that agreement must have been made available to many other people, to various institutions, to various individuals. The terms must be, I would not say widely known, but they must be known to a very wide circle of professional and other advisers. We are in the position that almost everybody else who is concerned in this agreement, in this deal, is familiar with the terms, but the Members of the Oireachtas are not being allowed to know what is in this agreement. It can properly be said that in the circumstances the Houses of the Oireachtas are being treated with contempt. This is a dangerous precedent which, if the Minister succeeds in passing this Bill—as he very probably will do—will be cited in future for giving less and less information to the Oireachtas, no matter what other people concerned with the agreement may know about it.

One of the objections to the Bill is that it would appear that the State has paid too much for the rights, whatever they are, to be acquired under the Bill. When I say that the State appears to be paying too much I cannot say that with complete conviction because I do not know exactly what the State is getting. In so far as one can estimate what the State is getting, in so far as one can speculate what is in the agreement, in so far as one can read such opinions and views as have been expressed by professionals and experts, there is strong reason for believing that the State is paying too much for the rights which are to be acquired.

The only information of any consequence which has been available to the public and to the Members of the Oireachtas is the report from Lazard Brothers. The peculiar thing about this report, to which I will refer again, is the extraordinary way in which they appear to have been asked to report. They appear to have been asked to give their views in a very limited time and having been given very little information. Lazards have complained about this in the report. They have said:

...we would have preferred to have commissioned a full report by independent mining consultants on the proposed development, together with further detailed studies thereon, in particular reports concerning the environmental considerations and the diversion of the Blackwater. In view of the time constraints, it is the mine development plan and associated costs as outlined by the Bechtel Report, subject to certain modifications, which had had to form the basis of the cash flows we have used.

Lazards asked for some help from Robert Thurmond, a mining engineer, and he has much the same complaint to make. He says:

I would like to have been able to develop a completely independent and in-depth study to determine the capital cost, operating cost and to assess other important aspects of this proposed project, but circumstances have not permitted this approach.

We have the position then, that Lazards were asked to report, I do not know when they were asked but they certainly reported at a very late stage. They complained very specifically of the fact that they were not able to properly investigate the situation, to get the kind of information they felt was necessary, to get the reports from other experts that they considered necessary, and because of that they were unable to give a satisfactory report. They complain that the data is insufficiently detailed to enable purchasers to have confidence in the main development plan produced by Bula and consequently to give a proper estimate of capital and operating costs.

Lazards referred to a few points which seem to be valid, points which would not require an expert to understand or appreciate. They said that one of the things they were concerned about in estimating the value of the mine was that the diversion of the Blackwater could prove far more expensive than was estimated. It does not require an expert to appreciate that what is proposed to be done in regard to diverting this river is a very complicated and highly technical project which may well prove far more expensive and difficult than was first estimated.

Lazards make another point which again is something any layman would appreciate and understand. That is that, even if planning permission is forthcoming, it could have expensive conditions. We all know that planning permission is sometimes granted but granted with very onerous conditions which make it extremely expensive to avail of. This is one of the points which Lazards mention in finally coming to an estimate of the value, in so far as they can do so, of the mine. They also point out that currently mining costs are going up all the time at a faster rate than the real value of ore. That means that even the margins which it is suggested would be applicable at the present time—again a vital matter in estimating the value of the mine—will gradually decrease and that consequently the value of the mine could be very much less than is suggested in some of the estimates.

The Lazard Report concludes on a note of great caution. They say:

We have therefore concluded that a knowledgeable potential purchaser would view an investment in the equity of Bula with considerable caution. He would recognise that the mine will come into production as it has sizeable reserves of ore and is important to Ireland. He would, however, recognise that the mere ownership of ore by no means generates a return. He would regard Bula as having very real problems facing it. He would be worried by the proximity of the orebody to the town of Navan and the difficulty of moving the river and indeed of being allowed to do so. He would be concerned that delays in bringing the mine into profitable production and increases in the cost of doing so might exceed those he allowed for. He would foresee considerable interference from the authorities on his freedom to mine the ore in the most economical way. The depressed state of the world economy would not enable him to make predictions about margins and revenue with assurance. Even if all went well and these problems were overcome he would take into account the possibility that the Government of the day would take a larger share of the rewards.

For these reasons the Bank chose a discount rate of 14% to apply to the cash flows and ultimately arrives at a valuation of £9.7m. which is reduced to £7.75m. when allowance is made as to Bula's other assets and liabilities on the valuation date.

That is the only reputable view and technical advice available to the people of the country and to Members of the Oireachtas in attempting to assess whether this is a good deal. In a situation in which we have been given the minimum of information, we have to make the best of such information as is available to us and, naturally, to form an opinion on this information. That information would lead us to believe that the price being paid for the mine should be something approaching a quarter of what is being proposed to be paid.

Quite apart from the content of that report, we must comment on the fact that Lazards were not given a fair chance to report. We must ask why were Lazards rushed into this situation in regard to such a very important matter and in regard to something that was going to cost the taxpayer in the region of almost £10 million? Why were they commissioned so late in the day—if they were commissioned, because I am not quite sure when in fact they were first approached: it appears they were commissioned very late in the day. Why again were they employed at all if the Minister was bound by an arbitration agreement at the time when they were commissioned, because it would appear that an arbitration agreement was entered into in which both parties agreed to be bound by the result of the arbitration? If this is so, it does not seem to be very helpful to get an opinion from Lazards if, no matter what they advised, the Minister was going to have to accept the result of the arbitration.

Perhaps the Minister agrees with the views expressed by Lazards but has no option but to accept the arbitration agreement because he is bound to accept by the original agreement. All one can say about this question of the report, this question of the value of what the taxpayer is paying for, is that this particular report adds to the mystery of this whole operation. It helps to some extent in so far as it gives views as to the value of the mine, but it adds to the mystery in the sense that one wonders why it reported so late, why it was given so little information and why it was not given the facility to get further information and thereby be in a position to give a more detailed and specific recommendation about the value.

In these circumstances I think it is fair to say that the Members of the Oireachtas must have a very great lack of confidence in the way in which this matter was handled. They must have a great lack of confidence in the figure and the validity of the figure which was eventually arrived at. This figure is for a minority holding in Bula Limited. It must not be overlooked that a minority holding is always an unsatisfactory position for any shareholder to be in. In any vote, in any decision which has to be made, any decision about the future, the State will always be in a minority. It may be said in these situations that the private shareholder is going to be very slow to do anything which would be contrary to the wishes or interests of the State but nevertheless the fact is that is a minority situation.

If we get back to what the Minister said in the course of his opening speech here today, he emphasised and mentioned again and again that this was a private company, that it had its rights, that whatever he might like or wish to do he had to recognise the fact that it was a private company; it had its rights and within certain limits it could do whatever it liked. The unfortunate position is that having paid in excess of £9 million for shares in this company the State is still going to be in a minority situation. The company can still do more or less what it likes just as it has been able to do in negotiating this contract. It is a lot of money to pay even if the figure is a valid one. It is a lot of money to pay and end up with a minority holding in this company where the State will always hold the wrong end of the stick, will always be in an unsatisfactory position if their views and the views of the majority clash on any point.

The second objection to this agreement which I mentioned at the beginning is the fact that it is a secret agreement. It is an agreement of which we have not been given details. It is one which the Houses of the Oireachtas are asked to debate, to consider and finally to give the Minister authority to pay out State funds in excess of £9 million without really knowing what the State is getting for its money. There is nothing else in the Bill of any consequence except that the Minister is authorised to pay that amount of money and to sign an agreement which will qualify and define exactly what he is getting for the money.

We are asked to approve of this. We are given the minimum of information. It is an impossible situation to be in. The Minister will get the support of the party supporting the Government not because they are satisfied with this but because they are making what amounts to an act of faith. If the Minister says it is all right, it must be all right. That is not a satisfactory situation for the House to be in. It is not a satisfactory position for the Opposition to be in and I think the Opposition in such a situation have really no alternative but to say that they cannot support the spending of £9 million of taxpayers' money without knowing exactly what the taxpayer is getting in return.

This is not by any standards a small amount of money. It is, I think, the largest equity investment the State has ever made. It is a situation in which the State is going to be not the major shareholder in the company but a very large shareholder and yet in being asked to invest this money we still can get no information as Members of the Oireachtas about what the terms of the agreement are.

Now this bad enough as it stands. It is bad enough at this stage, but all the indications are that this will continue into the future. This is not a public company. There will be no obligation on the company to publish its results, to publish anything about its activities and no obligation to publish annual reports or to give any information. We are in the position as citizens that our money, and a very large amount of money, is going to be spent and we are getting no information now and it seems most unlikely that we shall get any information in the future.

This step is taken at a time when all the trends are in the opposite direction, when public companies in particular and even private companies to some extent are being asked more and more to make further disclosures, to give more and more information not only to shareholders but to employees of the firm. All the trend at the present time in companies is to give more and more information so that everybody concerned will know exactly where they stand, whether they are shareholders, employees or anybody who is concerned in any way. The Minister's Department, the Stock Exchange and generally the Establishment are urging this situation of further disclosure all the time in regard to other companies, but in regard to this company we have a situation where no information whatsoever is being given and all the indications are that no information or virtually none will be given in the future.

The Minister dealt with this point to some extent in his opening speech. I think he said something which gets to the root of the problem in one sense but he seems to see it in a different way. He emphasised the fact that:

Bula Ltd. is a private company and, as such, is entitled, within the constraints of present law, to have its affairs treated on a confidential basis. The acquisition by the State of a 49 per cent interest in the company will not change that status— it will still remain a private company. I have already said that I see participation by the State as a partnership—a partnership between the public sector and the private interests. If this were a partnership between two private interests there would be no suggestion from any source that the agreement be published and I am sure that everyone would uphold the right of the parties concerned to full confidentiality in the matter.

That, as a statement of a proposition, is valid as far as it goes. But what is quite clear is that the Minister is accepting that the two parties concerned, although they need not publish the terms of the agreement for the public to see, would of course be quite clear about, quite familiar with and well informed as to the terms of the agreement before they entered into it and naturally two private parties would not enter an important agreement without knowing exactly what they were agreeing upon, without knowing exactly what their rights were, what they were getting for their money.

The point which I want to make and which the Minister does not seem to appreciate is that one of the parties in this agreement is the public, the people of this country, the taxpayers who must find the money, and we, as members of the Oireachtas, are acting for them or attempting to act for them in regard to this Bill. Because members of the public are one of the parties to this agreement, they should know what they are getting; they should know what the terms are; they should know what rights they are acquiring, they should know whether or not they are getting value for their money. The Minister's proposition in his opening speech is correct. But in my view he is not applying it in the proper way. He is not having regard to the fact that one of the parties in this is the public and that they should be able to find out a great deal more about this agreement before they agree to it being signed.

The Minister has emphasised again and again that it is a private company, that it has rights and that it cannot be forced into doing anything it does not want to do. This is true, but surely the Minister has some rights also. Surely the public have some rights. The Minister is not asking for something for nothing. He is paying a very large sum indeed; and it seems to me that although the people from whom he is acquiring the shares have rights the Minister has rights also. From that point of view the private company involved seems to have got everything their way and the public in so far as they have rights seem to have got very little in regard to this question of information of being told what they were getting for their money and what the terms of the agreement were.

The question of whether or not there is a precedent for this kind of agreement has been discussed at some length and the Minister states that there are precedents. He refers rather vaguely to IDA agreements, to the existing mine in Tara—which was a matter of giving rights rather than paying out public money—but in my view none of the alleged precedents which were mentioned by the Minister is valid as a precedent for what is being done in this case. I think the Minister and everybody will agree that this is a new situation. This exact kind of situation has not arisen before and because it has not arisen before one can have some sympathy with the Minister in trying to deal with it. In my view it is creating a very bad precedent. Once these things take place they will be cited, they will be used again and again in the future, or in similar situations, for doing something; because it was done in this case it can be done again. Of course this is never a good reason for doing something. If it was wrong and undesirable in the first place, then merely because there is a precedent for it does not make it good in the second or subsequent situation. Consequently the Minister is not only doing something which is undesirable and, in my view, not in the public interest, but he is doing something which will be cited and used for doing the same thing again and again, doing it in a climate of public opinion, as I mentioned earlier, where the trend is towards giving more and more information rather than giving less and less.

This precedent is swimming against the tide. It is moving in the opposite direction to what is generally conceded should be done: that every possible information and disclosure should be given in regard to companies where there are shareholders, employees or where the public are concerned in one way or another. In these circumstances it seems outrageous to me to ask this House to pass a Bill which contains a secret agreement which is the kernel of the Bill. As I have said, it would be impossible for us to support it in the circumstances.

The fact that it is not an entirely secret agreement is another aspect which adds to the outrage many people feel about this Bill. So many people must have seen this agreement, so many institutions, individuals, advisers and so on must have seen it that it cannot be regarded as a tightly kept secret in which nobody but the Minister and the Bula Company are concerned. In many circles the terms of this agreement must be known. It is an unhappy situation that the Members of this House, knowing that so many other people know the terms of this agreement, should be denied information about it and should be asked to provide a very large amount of money to pay for the shares and unknown rights. This adds to the undesirable aspect of this Bill.

This is the kind of thing that will happen again and again in the future once the precedent has been established. The Minister mentioned in his speech that it was an unsatisfactory situation and that he would like to see some way of dealing with the situation and giving the Houses of the Oireachtas some information. I am glad the Minister recognises that it is unsatisfactory and that he has suggested that perhaps some arrangement could be come to in the future. It is satisfactory to some extent that if this kind of a Bill comes up in future and if the Minister is still handling it he will make some effort to deal with it in a different way to give Members of the House some idea of what they are voting for or against. This is not of very much use at the present time in regard to this Bill. It is not of much use to the Members of this House today when we are dealing with a very important Bill in which a large amount of the taxpayers' money is involved. As regards the problem we have in trying to debate this Bill, form an opinion and give a decision, the Minister's observations about the unsatisfactory nature of the situation are really not of much use though it may be of some use some time in the future.

Having regard to the only hard information we have about the probable value of what is being acquired, having regard to the fact that it is unsatisfactory because the whole Bill is related to a secret agreement and having regard to what I think can properly be regarded as the contemptous way in which the House is being treated in being given no information when all kinds of people concerned in this situation have been given information, there is much difficulty for the Members of the House who are not willing to make an act of faith. As far as we are concerned I do not think we would be justified in making that act of faith. In the circumstances we cannot support this Bill.

I would like to speak very briefly on this Bill. One could talk for hours and hours. I do not think there will be any shortage of views on the Bill. Senator Eoin Ryan has very objectively summarised the main objections which were raised in the other House over many weeks. I would like to touch on some of the points he made and perhaps develop in a broader sense the background to the steps taken by the Minister.

As most Members of the House are aware, I have had some association with mining over a long number of years. I do not claim to be an expert. Certainly, reading the Dáil reports it seems to me there is no shortage of experts in the other House in dealing with matters of this kind. My experience over the years has been that by and large experts have generally been wrong. Certainly, in the development of natural resources and in forecasting of the prices of base metals, they have failed to come up with valuations or assessments which have stood the test of time. Perhaps it is just as well, because experts tend to be conservative and pessimistic whereas people who deal with the search and exploitation of natural resources must of their very nature be optimists. By and large, looking back over the years, the optimists have proved to be more or less right. Otherwise, we would not have any resources developed anywhere in the world.

I am not competent to say whether the price paid for the 24 per cent in the Bula Company is or is not a fair and reasonable price or a good price. The fact that the estimates made by people who claim to be experts, range in valuation from something in the nature of a few million pounds to over £100 million tends to support my view that the experts tend to be wrong.

Obviously I do not know how many experts were involved in those various estimates but many of these gentlemen will be proved wrong in the years ahead—maybe the man who said the value of the mine was something over £100,000 or, perhaps, the man who said a few million pounds. However, it gives some indication of the complexity of this situation and the difficulty in which the Minister, or indeed any Minister, could find himself in assessing a fair or true value when buying a share in the mine.

Taking the long-term view, taking the present price of base metals, looking ahead and having regard, as the Minister said, to the limited life particularly of zinc in terms of the world's known resources and to the trend in the price of metal prices, allowing for ups and downs which are part and parcel of the whole history of mining, if costs can be reasonably contained in this country, I would say that over the years Bula Mines and, of course, Tara Mines should prove to be very profitable undertakings.

At this stage I might offer a personal observation and express the hope that the Minister would use his 49 per cent interest in Bula and his 25 per cent interest in Tara to ensure that by some means or other this whole valuable, enormous mine would be operated as one undertaking. I think that is essential. Maybe it does not come within the terms of what we are discussing, but it is important that we get the maximum value from this mine in terms of production and in terms of employment and that every effort is made to establish a smelter so that the full value of ore may accrue to this country. In saying that, I think we should have regard to the fact that there will be difficulties ahead. Should we put up an Irish smelter we would have to sell the metal. Our consumption in this country would be very small so we would have to sell it abroad in competition with other smelter interests.

A lot of play has been made about this agreement. Strangely enough, I regard this as a minor issue in the whole business. Senator Ryan has said, quite rightly, that the terms of this agreement have got into some of our Press publications and that some people seem to know all about it. I do not know how they got to know it, but that seems to be the position. I agree with the Minister on the necessity of preserving the confidentiality of arrangements with private interests. I think it would be very dangerous now if the State were to depart from that precendent. I can imagine the cry from bodies such as the Confederation of Irish Industries, and indeed from any enterprise, if that principle were to be breached. In the negotiations with the multi-national oil companies nobody ever demanded to see what the agreements were. The main emphasis was to go ahead and get the best possible deal for the country.

That is my view of the matter. It is regrettable that the terms of the agreement became known but I suppose that is inevitable in this country on matters of this kind. We should also have regard to the situation in which the Minister found himself when this whole business started. Again, as any fairminded person will agree, that he inherited a highly unsatisfactory and complex situation in regard to the Tara-Bula mining enterprise and generally in regard to the question of the ownership of minerals in the State. I was glad to read the Minister's recent announcement that steps are to be taken to ensure that all non-State owned minerals will be acquired by the State. I assume the terms will be fair and reasonable.

One of the difficulties that has bedevilled our efforts to establish the mining industry here is the fact that so much of the minerals are owned by private interests and that there are some where the ownership could not be established at all. That is completely different from the situation in other countries. If the Minister pushes ahead with the proposal it will make much easier negotiations with companies who want to exploit our minerals in the years ahead. The Minerals Act of 1940 was a very progressive step forward. But unfortunately nothing was done about our mineral resources in the years that followed. They have lain fallow until quite recently when outside interests came in to explore our minerals. Nothing at all was done by Mianraí Teoranta although they had power to explore. We were quite prepared to let a stranger come in here and explore our resources.

Again looking back, I think it was reasonable to expect the State to give every encouragement to people's expertise in this field. The State had to be generous; perhaps it was overgenerous but this was necessary. The first thing to do was to find the minerals. Up to the withdrawal recently of the legislation which included the 100 per cent tax-free concession of 20 years the State got little or nothing out of mining. This should not be forgotten. The country benefited from it. A lot of employment was given to people who otherwise would not have got employment. The State got the benefit of taxation from people in employment. If we had not allowed this exploration, the minerals might not have been discovered. People would have emigrated to England or elsewhere and possibly worked in mines there. Foreigners got the biggest slice directly by way of profits. We are moving now into a different area where the State is taking a positive participation in the equity of both onshore and offshore and natural resources exploration and development. I think that is only right and proper. We must be realistic about this situation, too. Even at this stage, although we have made considerable progress we lack the necessary expertise and we certainly lack the hugh capital resources to develop our mineral resources. With the best will in the world that situation will persist for some years at least. The question of expertise can be overcome in time. Many Irishmen working abroad will be only too glad to come home and work in their own country in mines or offshore developments.

The question of capital is one problem. We are talking in terms of hundreds of millions of pounds. Whether we like it or not and regardless of which party may be in power, we shall have to form a partnership with these huge companies that have the necessary financial resources. We shall have to try to make the best deals we possibly can with them. It is all right to say we should have our own State company to develop our natural resources, but this is not realistic in present circumstances. Any Minister involved would have to make the best possible deal in the interests of the Irish people. But the deal must be such that the State gets the maximum possible return for the investment and at the same time that sufficient encouragement is given to foreign interests or to native interests to take the necessary risks in the exploration of natural resources. It is very expensive and during many years it has been proved to be in the majority of cases a very unsuccessful business.

Some comment has been made to the effect that when these negotiations conclude the Minister will find himself as the minority interest, albeit a very substantial one, 49 per cent. It would be nice to have a 51 per cent or a 52 per cent controlling interest in it. If the State wants a 51 per cent or a majority interest it must be prepared to undertake the operation of these mining or offshore oil exploration enterprises. I do not think one can assume a majority situation and do nothing about it because the people who have the capital and the know-how are not prepared to sit in a minority situation and let the State decide what they in their ignorance will do. We must have regard to that fact. The day may come—and I hope it does—when the State will have at its disposal the necessary technical skills and capital to undertake the position of a majority shareholder in these enterprises. Frankly, I cannot see such a situation arising at present.

As the Minister very rightly said in his speech, we are moving into new policy areas in the field of natural resources. From having no interests in the equity of these companies we are now starting with a 25 per cent interest in one and a 49 per cent interest in the other, even though these are minority interests. The involvement with experienced private interests will prove to be invaluable to the State agencies involved. For the first time they are getting inside knowledge of the working of companies particularly those involved in the development of natural resources. This experience will be invaluable in the years to come and it will also have the effect of influencing future State policy. As we acquire more knowledge of our own resources, as we have more expertise available among our own people and as the capital availability improves in this country obviously these types of negotiations will change. All the time we must move towards the ideal of either State-owned or, as I would prefer it, State and Irish private enterprise in partnership but this is some way off yet.

In the present circumstances and, having regard to everything I have said, I would not go so far as to say that this deal is an ideal one. Perhaps the Minister might have done a little better; perhaps a little bit worse. But, taking everything by and large and taking the long-term view, he has done a reasonably good job. Much of the criticism and material that was dragged out in the other House had no relevance to the basic points in this whole deal which was, in all fairness to him, spelt out by Senator Ryan. The main thing is whether the deal is a good one. I should like very much to hear some of the experts in this House telling me that it is either a good or a bad deal, provided they tell me also on what basis their judgments are formed. I do not regard myself as being in a position to say what is the future possibility of this mine. Looking back in five or ten years' time we will probably regard this as a good deal. I hope I am right. Basically, it is a step in the right direction. It will have valuable consequences and a valuable follow-up for the State and for the Minister and his Department. The House should support the Bill.

I suppose if one were to go back over the whole history of legislation in this country since a native Government was set up one would not find a great deal of references to mining in general because it was believed in the past that the Almighty had not been too generous to us so far as mineral wealth was concerned. While England, Scotland, France, the Ruhr Valley and Poland had an abundance of coalfields, we in Ireland had very scanty supplies. Perhaps, too, because of an alien Government mining was not encouraged. It is a development that has occurred only in recent years.

It is only fair to pay tribute to some of the people who pioneered the efforts in this respect. Special mention must be made of Mr. Gilroy from Fermanagh and others who had experience of uranium mines in Canada and who came in here, brought with them their expertise, consulted old geological maps, carried out many surveys and used a lot of modern techniques which were not available until quite recently. In that way they have certainly helped to enhance the value of our country, not alone what is over the ground but also what is underneath.

I suppose it is only fair to comment too that in any effort of this nature, despite the amount of information and research that may be available, matters often do not work out as planned. Consequently there are great hazards still involved in venturing into mining in any shape or form. That is true despite the fact that we have all those modern devices for estimating tonnage, the depth of seams, the quality of ore and so on.

Many people were elated when the Tara Mines were discovered and, as the Minister has said today, the orebody seems to be one of the largest in Europe or in the world. That is something of great significance and something that is probably not as widely known among the ordinary people as one would expect. The great pity to my mind is—and this apparently, happened early in the history of this mining venture—that a difference arose between the first people involved in the Tara Mines and Mr. Wright. I still think that it should be possible for somebody—I do not know who would be able to do it— to try to merge the two companies together because nothing separates them except the Blackwater and when one goes down underneath the ground even that does not separate them. Some of you may have seen in last Sunday's newspapers that it has now been made public that 250 feet down there is an underground river which would probably involve disaster for both companies should they not work as a unit. I am not experienced in these financial or engineering matters, but the ordinary man in the street who would have very little knowledge of mining would immediately see that there is great potential in that area.

The Minister, if he has any money to spare, should try to encourage the establishment of a smelter in the area. It has been said recently that there are thousands of tons of ore which have been removed in making the tunnels. This ore contains about 10 per cent zinc or lead. It will have to be shifted eventually.

In view of the fact that Tara is fairly well developed at present some effort should be made to get a smelter. Now is the time to do it. If we have the largest orebody in Europe or in the world why are we going to do the same as we have done with the Tynagh Mines and other places? Why are we going to send this ore abroad? It is something the Government should be concerned about. There is great employment potential there.

We are really discussing the fact that the Minister has taken shares in Bula Limited and using £9¼ million of the taxpayer's money to do that. I am not a person who would condemn the Minister for his actions because I happen to know his abilities from days gone by when he presented a farming programme. It was obvious he was very efficient and that he knew a lot about rural Ireland and farming in general. I am not sure what his expertise is in the mineral field.

The reason we would find fault with the Bill is because we are not being treated properly as Members of the Oireachtas. After all if £9¼ million of the taxpayer's money is going to be used there should be no secret agreement about it. The men who know about financial matters seem to know that it is not that secretive and that there are many people who know what is in it. If we put money into a concern we expect to get an annual report—as we do, for example, from the ESB and CIE—telling us what is happening and so on. There is not anything said here that the same is going to happen with Bula Limited. I do not think this is correct.

I did not read the Dáil Debates but I know they have pressed for this agreement to be made public. No valid case has been made for withholding that information. It shows a lack of confidence by the Minister in his own party and, indeed in the Opposition. Surely they should be trusted with information such as that. They should have some idea regarding the expenditure of this £9¼ million, which is a large sum of money and which would be useful in financing many other worth-while projects.

I do not like secretive agreements and I do not think anybody else does either. I do not want to be political in this but history records that there were secret agreements made in this country in the past, back in 1925 or 1926, that have had very detrimental effects on the country since then. We should be out in the open so far as this is concerned.

With regard to planning permission, it does not seem as if it has been granted yet. There is a new planning board set up. This is a vital matter especially since it has been suggested that the River Blackwater will be diverted. Will all the interests involved be taken into consideration, for example, the great fishing potential that has been there over the years? What effect will this open-cast mining have on the environment of Navan? There are people in Navan who are perturbed about the environment and the pollution that will be caused by the Tara mines as they are at present. On a winter evening you can see the mist coming out of the mines, whether it is condensation or some type of pollution I do not know. I know they went to great lengths to try to prevent it. These are health hazards that may arise and of which a Government would have to take cognisance.

As my colleague, Senator Ryan, has said, we as a party will be voting against this to show our dissatisfaction with any type of secret deal.

One cardinal fact emerges from this Bill, that is, that it was a serious mistake and indeed a major tragedy that any foreign interest or indeed any private interest was enabled to have any hand, act or part in the disposition of the natural resources of this nation. The Minister was not responsible for that. It is a situation he inherited. It is my belief that in view of this he has made the best deal possible in a very difficult set of circumstances.

By far the major part of every debate which has taken place about this Bill, both inside and outside Leinster House, has been devoted to the financial issue and the financial ramifications of the company. That is all that is covered by the Bill. It is quite proper that there should be a very full, frank and open debate about matters which are of deep concern and interest to all sections of the community. However, there are some matters which are not governed by the Bill but which, in my opinion, must be taken fully into account if we are to give serious examination to the Bill itself. There are matters such as the overall operation of the company, its trading policy now and in the future, its industrial relations code, the question of wages and conditions of employment for its workers and the question of safety measures in an occupation which is traditionally hazardous.

I want to make it clear that the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union, which represent the workers employed by the company, have no dispute with the company. Indeed the relationship between the union and the company is very good. Nor do we anticipate any dispute or conflict in the near future. This is an industry and an occupation which inevitably brings forth at least differences of opinion. I mention these matters because I think that the Government must share some responsibility for ensuring that the company deal with these matters in a correct manner. The Minister, in the course of his opening statement, said, that he sees participation by the State as a partnership, a partnership between the public sector and private interests.

Further on the Minister makes what I regard as a somewhat contradictory statement when he referred to the introduction of the State as a minority participant. I query these statements because it is my view that if the State invests public money in any concern, either directly as in this case or through the IDA or some other State or semi-State body, then the Government have a responsibility to ensure that the undertaking is administered in an equitable manner and in a manner based on just principles, a manner which will ensure that all dealings with the public, outside interests, trade unions and its own workers are proper and can be stood over by the Government and the Minister.

I should like to ask the Minister what is the position of the Government in this regard? What responsibility and powers have the Government? Is it true that under section 4 the Minister's nominee may become a member of the board of directors? Is it his responsibility to ensure that he simply votes up to the extent of 49 per cent? If that is the position and there is nothing in the agreement which would give the Minister's nominee greater powers, responsibilities and authority, then, despite the Government's substantial holding of 49 per cent in the company, the holding might just as well be 1 per cent if in the last analysis the board of directors are able to override any decisions, suggestions or proposals that the Minister's nominee, or the Minister, might make. I want the Minister to believe that I am putting these questions to him not by way of criticism but to obtain factual information not alone for myself but, I am certain, for the workers employed in this undertaking, workers who may be employed by subsidiary companies set up by the company and for the general public.

In common with a number of other Members of the House, and laymen in general, I find it difficult to make up my mind about the controversy that has gone on regarding this Bill because I do not have the expertise or the information at my disposal. Even if I had the statistics I would not be sufficiently skilled or experienced in mining technology to make a decision on the issues in the debate in the other House on which there was serious division. The main issue there as some people have pointed out, was a financial one. One has to have good expert background information to make any proper judgment on the sum the Minister has paid or on the agreement the Minister has made which we do not know about. One can surmise about the terms of this agreement, but it is clear that the Minister has information at his disposal which he is unable to give to the public. That is part of the normal run of things. It is also clear that the Opposition spokesman, Deputy O'Malley, knew more than he was prepared to divulge. He had good background information but the rest of us are not in this situation and, therefore, we are rather in the dark in trying to make an estimate. I would guess that even the experts in their valuations on the amount of ore under ground before the opening-up process takes place are very much in the nature of estimators and the estimates could easily be very far wrong. Its impossible to make a judgment.

I should like to say something about the points of principle. If one avoids the actual financial part of the deal, in principle I am in favour of participation by the State in our mining and offshore oil and gas enterprises. I am not sure whether it is socialist philosophy or not—perhaps, Senator Kennedy could help us on that—but it is purely pragmatic that here we must have control of our natural resources by the State up to a certain point. The question of at what point one draws the line between private and public enterprise is a difficult one. My feeling is— and I have written to the Minister in this vein—that he has done a good deal as far as the offshore oil and gas enterprises are concerned. He made what is a wise statement in his speech on Second Stage of the Bill when he stated:

I have always said that we need the multi-nationals. We need their experience, their technology and their financial capabilities. But we need them as partners and not as masters.

I agree entirely with that. It is being light in the head to say that we can go ahead and, entirely from our resources, from our own technical skill and experience, develop our mineral or offshore oil and gas resources. That is not talking sense and the people who slavishly adhere to such a philosophy do not have their feet on sound economic ground or sound technical ground.

The sort of situation we should look at is the situation of a country of a similar size with limited amounts of capital, such as Norway, and see how well they have done their deals as far as their offshore resources of oil are concerned. That is the sort of model we should follow. Not everything in the Norwegian case may be applied to our situation but it is the sort of deal we should be out to do. Basically, the deals the Minister has done in the other areas were good and they will be to his credit in future years when the resources come to bear fruit and some financial benefits start to accrue.

It is part of the commercial philosophy of this State, going back to the days of our first Government, that where private enterprise is not sufficient public enterprise should be set up to fill the gap. The first and classic example of this was the Shannon Scheme, which was pushed through by Mr. Paddy McGilligan who certainly could not be looked on as a doctrinaire Marxist—whatever else one might have said about him he was not that. He saw the need for the State to develop our electrical power resources that were there in terms of hydro-electric generation. He established the Shannon scheme and it has been a tremendous success. It is interesting to look at the history of the establishment of the Shannon scheme and the debates which took place in the Dáil and see the extreme difficulty which he had in getting it agreed to by the Dáil and, in fact, the considerable opposition by the Labour Party of the day to the measures he proposed, not irresponsible opposition by any means——

They were never that.

I do not think they behaved too responsibly on the Order of Business earlier today. However, that is party politics. It is interesting to reflect on that period and then to see the comparative ease with which semi-State bodies are set up now. Generally, when a debate comes along people are in favour and it is an interesting reflection on the success of public enterprise in our mixed economy. It is something that could be more researched and people could think about it a bit more. It is important to realise the attitude of the public to the semi-State type of operation and to understand why there is a generally favourable feeling towards these bodies and also to understand the dangers inherent at present of losing the initial thrust that was in these bodies when they were set up.

This operation diverges from that pattern. I do not necessarily think it is a bad divergence, because one of the problems one faces in other parts of the public sector is too much control by the civil servants. I met a person recently who is currently the most distinguished head of a semi-State body and who has worked in it for a great portion of his life and I asked him what were his relations with the civil service. He replied "I spent the last 25 years fending off the so-and-sos. What do you think I am going to say about them?" That is not a reflection on the expertise or capabilities of our civil servants. In fact, it may mean that they are too good in one sense and too strong in another. Those enterprises were set up to be at a distance from the civil service and that was an important and inherent part of their establishment. When they were initially set up one of the most important things done was that top people from the private sector were recruited to head these bodies and to give them their initial thrust and commercial expertise. We are in danger of losing that.

I am worried about appointments to these bodies. I hope that when the Minister makes his nominations to the board of this company—he is going to nominate a certain number of directors—he will nominate people who have some experience of the industry from the inside. I would like to see people who are in a position to represent the Minister's, and the national interests, but who are not just nominees straight from the Department of Industry and Commerce, for example. By this I mean people who have been career civil servants all their lives because they would not be adequately equipped to deal with the more commercial side of the operation. In other words, one wants someone with actual experience of the mining industry to be nominated, one who will represent the interests of the State in this. It will be a minority interest but with 49 per cent of the shares it will be a very big minority interest and will, obviously be able to have a considerable say in the development of our resources. I am basically in favour of the operation but the entrepreneurial spirit evident in earlier appointments to headships in semi-State bodies should be continued and some tough guys with experience of the industry should be in there representing the Minister.

I should like to ask the Minister to comment on an article which appeared in The Sunday Times, 20th March, 1977. It concerns the two mines, Bula and Tara. The article deals with the diversion of the Blackwater River. It is difficult for a layman to understand the problem of leaving this pillar of ore underneath so that the river water does not suddenly come through and flood the mine. One can get some picture of that. I should like to find out what the expert opinion on the Blackwater River is for the two companies. I know there is a dispute going on about it but, perhaps, the Minister could give us his view on that. I would also like to hear his view about the story carried in The Sunday Times concerning the Whistlemount Channel. The article described it as:

...an ice-age relic running 90ft beneath the surface. It is about 600ft wide and covered by clay and silt. But its bottom consists of porous sand and gravel on top of some 200ft of limestone and shale. The danger would lie in the possibility that, as a result of blasting and mining, the limestone could be breached or faulted and the water, sand and gravel could pour into the underground mine, rather like water from a bathtub when the plug is pulled.

According to this article this is a danger to both Tara and Bula. Clearly it is a factor one has to consider when considering the Bill and the implications thereof. The recommendation from the experts is that a safety pillar be left in the orebody under the channel but there seems to be some difference in the expert opinions about how dangerous this underground watercourse is and how it could affect the operation of the two mines. Again, we are entirely in the hands of the experts. The Minister has expert opinion and I would like him to give the House the benefit of that expert opinion when replying to the Second Stage debate.

Debate adjourned.
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