Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 1978

Vol. 89 No. 8

An Bille um Bord na Gaeilge, 1978: An Dara Céim (Atógáil) Bord na Gaeilge Bill, 1978: Second Stage (Resumed).

Athchuireadh an cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair."
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Sul a scoramar an óiche faoi dheireadh bhí cúpla sampla tugtha agam den mhoill mhór, narbh inleithscéil dar liom, a bhain le freagraí a fháil ón Roinn Oideachais ar mholtaí an bhoird. Ní ró-shásta i gcoitinne a bhí an bord leis an gcaoi ar chaith an Roinn Oideachais leofa. Ach is chun cothrom na Féinne a fháil don bhord agus ní amháin chun an neamhshuim seo a chasadh leis an Roinn Oideachais adeirim an méid sin. Ba mhinic an bord sáinithe idir an dá thine Bealtaine, iad féin ag iarraidh rudaí áirithe a áitiú ar an Rialtas agus ag coinneáil srian lena mífhoighid an uair nach raibh a mhacsamhail de smacht ar lucht a gcáinte—clocha ceangailte agus madaí scaoilte, mar adeir an seanfhocal.

Chun cothrom na Féinne a thabhairt don Roinn Oideachais féin, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuair mé dea-scéal ar na mallaibh ón Aire Oideachais, scéal a chuir lúcháir orm. Is fada a bhí an bord ag iarraidh go mbúnófai comhchoiste a mbéadh ionadaithe sinnsearacha ón bhord agus ón Roinn air le comhoibriú a chinntiú agus a bhrostú. Anois tá an comhchoiste sin ar tí a bhunaithe. Más maith is mithid. Acht molaim an tAire Oideachais dá bharr.

An Tuarascáil sin faoi Dhearcadh an Phobail i leith na Gaeilge, leag sí an mhéar ar roinnt de na laigí is mó a bhaineas le staid na Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais, laigí atá an-chontúirteach don teanga agus a d'féadfadh a bheith marfach.

Ar na rudaí a luadh bhí (1) an tuitim thubaisteach i líon na ndaltaí a dhéanann freastal ar scoileanna lánGhaelacha nó dhátheangacha; (2) an tuitim i gcaighdeán cumais sa Ghaeilge i measc múinteoirí Gaeilge; (3) an géarghá le cumas labhartha sa Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn; (4) an géar-ghá le húsáid na Gaeilge sna scoileanna a fhorbairt lasmuigh de na ranganna; agus (5) modhanna spreagtha ar mhaithe le múineadh na Gaeilge a chur ar fáil.

Ní liosta iomlán é sin, ar ndóigh, ach is ag dul in olcas atá an scéal de réir chosúlachta. In alt leis in eagrán Earrach na bliana seo de "Teangeolas" scríobh Stiúrthóir na hInstitiúide Teangeolaíochta, Tomás Ó Domhnalláin, an méid seo faoin "Ghaeilge san Oideachas": gurab eagal leis nach ábhar dóchais ach a mhalairt a bhí le nochtú aige, nach fás ach meath atá léirithe san eolas is déanaí atá ar fáil. Deir sé gur léir gur tháinig laghdú mór ar úsáid na Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais ó thús na seachtóidí agus gur laghdú leanúnach nó carnach atá ann. Deir sé: "Na micléinn a fhoghlaimíonn tríd an nGaeilge ar scoil is iad sin na daoine fásta is fearr a mbíonn an Ghaeilge acu ar ball; b'iad freisin bo mhó a sholáthríodh múinteoirí náisiúnta agus múinteoirí Gaeilge le haghaidh scoileanna iar-bhunoideachas..." Lena chois sin, má leanann na laghdaithe atá le tabhairt faoi deara ar líon na ndaltaí a thugann faoin Gaeilge nó a ghlacann leagan Gaeilge de pháipéir in ábhair eile san meanteistiméireacht agus san árdteistiméireacht, 'sé barúil an Stiúrthóra gur laghdú a bhéas ag teacht feasta ar an gcéatadán de phobal na hÉireann, 30 faoin gcéad de réir an daonáirimh is deireannaí, a bhfuil cumas éigin sa Ghaeilge acu.

Thagair an Seanadóir Séamus de Brún don mhéad atá tagtha le goirid i lion na ndaltaí a dteipeann ortha i nGaeilge sna scrúdaithe sin, fiú nuair a thugann siad faoin phaipéar Gaeilge.

Creidim gur leor a bhfuil luaite agam chun béim a chur ar na gá atá le comhoibriú cumasach, leanúnach idir Bhord na Gaeilge agus an Roinn Oideachais. Aithním an brú atá ar an Roinn Oideachas le blianta. Aithním gur féidir nach raibh ar a n-acmhainn riar mar ba mhian leo ar chúrsaí Gaeilge. Ach dá leanfadh an scéal mar sin ní bheadh Bord na Gaeilge ach ar leath-chois cheal tacaíocht íomlán na Roinne is mó d'féadfadh cabhrú le cumas sa Ghaeilge a bhunú agus a leathnú. Is mór agam, da bhrí sin, an cinneadh atá déanta le goirid ag an Aire Oideachais coiste Gaeilge a bhunú sa Roinn sin chun cúram speisialta a dhéanamh don Ghaeilge sa chóras oideachais. Mar fheictear domhsa é, nuair a cuireadh deireadh leis an éigeantas roinnt blianta o shin, fágadh nach raibh aon pholasaí dearbhtha ina áit agus beidh ar an gcoiste seo an bhearna sin a líonadh.

'Sé fograíodh an chéad lá faoi Bhord na Gaeilge gur "executive agency" a bheadh ann—an chéad áisínteacht Stáit ariamh a bunaíodh d'aonturas chun leas na Gaeilge a dhéanamh. Ach ní fíor ar fad an teideal sin. Tá réimsí ann, ar ndóigh, ina dtig leis an mbord a bheartais féin a chur i gcrích ach tá réimsí móra tábhachtacha ann, fearacht cúrsaí oideachais, nach dtig leis an mbord ach iarracht a dhéanamh ar dhul i gcion ar ná húdaráis a bhfuil na cúramaí seo orthu go bunúsach. Mura bhfaghann an bord lán-chomhar agus cuidiú uathusan tá thiar ar an gcuid sin dá n-iarrachtaí.

Cuid de Chomhaltaí na Dála, mheas siad go mba cheart go mbeadh smacht éigin ag Bord na Gaeilge ar Ranna Stáit, go háirithe ar an Roinn Oideachais, ó thaobh na Gaeilge dhe. Ní réitím féin leis an tuairim sin. Caithfidh gach Aire a bheith freagrach as gach gné de pholasaí a Roinne féin. Ach más mar sin atá, is móide dá bharr an gá atá le comhoibriú fial leanúnach idir Bhord na Gaeilge agus na Ranna Stáit uilig. Is ar an ábhar sin, agus ar iarratas speisialta an bhoird, faoi mar d'admhaigh an tAire féin, atá an t-alt sa Bhille seo a dhearbhaíos nach ar an mbord amháin atá cúram na Gaeilge ach go leanfaidh an cúram sin do na lán údarás eile, idir Ranna Stáit, boird Stáit agus Radio Telefís Éireann, mar shampla. Níl aon mhaolú ar a ndualgaisí siúd i leith na Gaeilge.

Molaim an laghdú atáthar a dhéanamh ar líon an bhoird ach bhí mé ag dréim le go dtabharfaí údarás don bhord nua sa Bhille seo coistí comhairleacha a bhunú ionas go bhféadaidís teacht ar chomhairle ó shaineolaithe agus ó dhaoine eile a mbeadh taithí nó suim ar leith acu i ngnéithe áirithe a bhaineas le forbairt na Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé le tuiscint go bhfuil an chumhacht seo ag an mBord ach b'fhearr liom féin go n-abrófaí amach go soiléir é, faoi mar a dhéantar i nAchtanna eile.

Níl aon amhras orm ná go bhfuil an tAire Oideachais agus, ar ndóigh, Aire na Gaeltachta agus an Rialtas tré chéile, an-bháiúil leis an nGaeilge agus gur mhaith leo leas na Gaeilge a dhéanamh, ach ní ceart a bheith ag brath ar fad ar an deá-thoil. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go ndéanfaí socraithe deimhne ar nós an chomhchoiste sin idir Bhord na Gaeilge agus an Roinn Oideachais a luaigh mé cheana.

Mura ndéanfaí sin is baol go ndéanfaí neamart san obair ar fad. Mar sin, agraim an Rialtas féachaint chuige go mbeidh iomlán chumas agus díogras na Ranna Stáit uilig taobh thiar den Ghaeilge is go dtabharfaidh siad lántacaíocht do Bhord na Gaeilge. Mura ndéantar é seo tá mé cinnte nach mbeidh rath ar shaothar Bhord na Gaeilge, agus rud i bhfad níos measa is níos truamhéalaí fós, nach mbeidh slánú i ndán don Ghaeilge.

Thagair mé, nuair a labhair mé an chéad uair, do na deacrachtaí a bhain le earcú foirne faoi rialacha Choimisinéirí na Státseirbhíse. Ba ghnáthach go dtógfadh sé beagnach bliain orainn duine foirne a fháil agus mar bharr ar an mi-ádh ní túisce a bheadh an duine sin fostaithe ná bhíodh orainn dúl i mbun na n-oibre arís siocair duine eile a bheith ag imeacht uainn—ag casadh ar a sheanphost nó ag dul ar aghaidh go dtí post eile i ngeall ar é bheith mí-shásta nó faiteach faoi stadas nó faoi chumas gníomha an bhoird. Is maith an rud é go gcuirtear deireadh leis an éigcinnteacht maidir le stadas agus cuspóir an bhoird sa Bhille seo, agus go scaoiltear saor ó laincisí Choimisinéirí na Státseirbhíse é. Is mór an dul chun cinn é seo agus is ceart a bheith an-bhuíoch dá bharr.

Os ag trácht ar chúrsaí foirne mé, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil an bord a bhí ann go dtí seo, agus pobal na hÉireann i gcoitinne, d'fhéadfainn a rá, faoi chomaoin mhór ag Seán de Fréine, a bhí mar phríomhoifigeach againn ó thús, agus ag a lucht tacaíochta, as ucht ar chaith siad de dhíogras le gnaithí an Bhoird, d'ainneoin na ndeacrachtaí uilig a bhain dúinn. Má tá bláth ag teacht anois ar réamhobair an Bhoird, is dóibh siúd is mó atá an chreidiúint ag dul. Agus os ag trácht ar dhaoine mé b'olo an mhaise dhom gan comhaltaí an bhoird a mholadh as a ndearna siad go fonnmhar, gan chúiteamh, chun an bhunchloch a leagan agus structúr fónta a thógáil.

Ní hé amháin go bhfuil an bhunchloch leagtha anois ach, mar is léir ón chlár a foilsíodh i Mí Feabhra, tá tionscnaimh fhónta faoi lán tseol d'fhonn feabhas a chur ar chumas sa Ghaeilge i measc daoine fásta agus pásti miona, d'fhonn úsáid na Gaeilge i bpobail éagsúla a leathnú, agus d'fhonn tuiscint an phobail i gcoitinne do thábhacht na Gaeilge agus méid a meas uirthí a neartú. Tá an síol curtha ag an chéad Bhord neamhreachtúil. Sé an Bord nua reachtúil a bhainfeas an barr, agus tá súil agam barr torrthúil, trom a bhéas ann.

As our objective is a bilingual society it would be wrong, in my view, to have the whole of this debate in Irish as if it were a matter only for those already competent or interested in the language. 'Sé pobal na hÉireann ar fad, agus ní pobal na Gaeilge amháin, pobal Bhord na Gaeilge. I do not wish to repeat what I have said in Irish about problems which have beset the board so far but for which this Bill now provides a welcome remedy. I hope in particular that from now on the board will be assured of the full co-operation of the Department of Education and other bodies with major responsibilities for the advancement of the Irish language. Thinking in particular of that 70 per cent of the population who do not claim any competence in Irish I should like to put in a few words why the efforts of Bord na Gaeilge deserve the full and active support not just of Departments and RTE and other official bodies but of every Irish man, woman and child.

The board, like Comhairle na Gaeilge before them, have given much thought to the philosophy which should underline their approach to the public. It is recognised that in Ireland there is a very special linguistic problem. In other countries the active study of two or three languages may be needed to ensure full national communicability and solidarity, or to promote trade, tourism and converse with one's neighbours, or to give access to educational and literary advantages. The case for bilingualism in Ireland, however, does not rest on any practical necessity. Ninety-eight per cent of the population speak English as their mother tongue and the remainder speak English as a second language. So the Irish people already have a high proficiency in a world language, and there is no necessity for purposes of communication or wider access to learning to provide a lingua franca, or to promote bilingualism.

The case for bilingualism here rests rather an a recognition that the Irish language is a most precious heritage, the thing that most signifies and maintains our continuity as a distinctive people, the key to a treasure-house of poetry and prose epics, folklore and song, which has expressed the imagination and feeling, the wisdom and humour, all the varied responses of generations of Irish people to life and its vicissitudes from the early centuries down, indeed, to our own day. If Ireland is to become bilingual it will be through the influence of love and esteem for Irish rather than through any linguistic or economic necessity.

Our interaction with other influences, especially the English language, has also enriched us, but English does not carry all our traditions, all the emotions and aspirations we have experienced as a people. The roots of Irish go deeper in our history and culture. Putting it negatively for a moment, if as a result of indifference, the Irish language were allowed to die, the loss would be irreparable. We would have lost one of the most important elements of our identity. We would have cut ourselves off from an invaluable heritage and made ourselves even more vulnerable than we are already to absorption in an amorphous, Anglo-American culture. This, if rarely articulated, is the instinct we have about Irish. It is this that leads the majority of the population, including many with very limited knowledge of and competence in Irish, to support a policy of ensuring the future of the language. It is this sentiment that Bord na Gaeilge need to sharpen and strengthen into a will to act, to channel it into practical expression to an ever-increasing extent. The foundations have been laid and the programme announced by the board for 1978 shows the variety of well-considered means by which the board, with the help of continuing research, will be trying to promote competence in and use of the Irish language and also understanding of its value and importance to us as a community.

Whatever degree of appreciation and love may be generated in the public at large, a policy of bilingualism would, I fear, be doomed to sterility if the living source of the language, the Gaeltacht, were to contract further and continue to weaken. The last few generations have seen the everyday use of Irish ebb so fast that there now remain only scattered pools of varying size, mainly along the western seaboard. The smaller Gaeltacht communities are particularly vulnerable to extinction.

The Tánaiste, Seoirse Ó Colla, did much to help sustain the Gaeltacht and its morale when he set up Radio na Gaeltachta, which has since had a rather chequered career, but the need for a whole range of supportive measures and for the development of local self-reliance and initiative remains vital. The life-line of continuity with the past has worn dangerously thin. I suppose that, in my own life-time, the genuine Gaeltacht has shrunk by 60 per cent. I have had the sad experience of visiting and talking to the last native Irish-speakers in Omeath and on the edge of the Burren, and I am familiar, as the Minister is, with areas in north-west Mayo where the only fluent speakers of Irish left are people of our own age or older. What a tragedy it would be to see presented on our television screens the last native Irish-speaker from Carna or Ranafast.

Bord na Gaeilge have a most difficult but also a most important task—the task of keeping Irish alive and ensuring that it will be a strong and active element in a bilingual situation. I must confess I would not have thought it necessary to propose the addition of the words in the Bill "gnáthmheán cumarsáide". There is a lot to be done on the way towards any such objective. The board need and deserve as much freedom and flexibility and as relatively generous access to resources as are conceded to any of our State bodies. I have pressed for this as chairman of the board. I am glad to recognise the greatly increased provision which the Minister was able to make this year and the general improvements made in this Bill. As regards resources, I should like to urge strongly that these be enlarged soon to enable the board to finance a well thought-out professional publicity programme aimed at promoting understanding throughout the community of the importance of the Irish language and at having it more widely spoken. This is no less necessary in relation to Irish than in relation to health, road safety and similar matters.

Ag casadh ar an nGaeilge dom, agus mar fhocal scoir, ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú arís gurab é cuspóir Bhord na Gaeilge pobal na hÉireann uilig a spreagadh chun comhoibriú dá ndeoin agus dá dtoil féin chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn mar theanga bheo. Ar eagla go gceapfaí go raibh cuid dá ndúírt mé pas beag gruama, ní miste dhom a bhfuil d'ábhar dóchais againn a lua sul a scoraim.

Tá cumas leathan Gaeilge ann nach bhfuil feidhm á bhaint as. Tá lucht labhartha na Gaeilge le fáil i ngach réim de shaol na tíre. Tá cumas léimh sa Ghaeilge níos leithne ná mar a bhí sé riamh roimhe. Tá forbairt agus caighdeánú déanta ar an teanga. Tá litríocht bheo dá cumadh sa Ghaeilge. Tá lucht éisteachta agus féachana, nach beag, do chláracha i nGaeilge ar an raidio agus ar an teilifís. Tá modhanna múinte teanga ar fáil anois atá níos tarrantaí agus níos éifeachtaí ná mar a bhíodh. Tá tuiscint níos fearr ar fhadhbanna teanga, a bhuíochas sin don Tuarascáil ar Dhearcadh an Phobail. Tá báídh mhórchuid an phobail leis an nGaeilge. 'Sé tá le déanamh againn féachaint chuige go mbainfear leas as na buntáistí seo agus nach gceilfear cabhair nó airgead nó achmhainn gníomha ar Bhord na Gaeilge san saothar neamhghnáthach ach fíor-thábhachtach a dhaingnítear orthu sa Bhille seo.

Ar an gcéad dul síos ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an mBille agus comhgháirdeas a ghabháil leis an Aire as ucht an Bille a thabhairt isteach. Tá súil agam go n-eireoidh leis Bord na Gaeilge a chur ag feidhmiú i gceart agus go gcuirfidh sé an Ghaeilge chun cinn i measc an phobail. Ba mhaith liom freisin cuidiú leis na focail mholta a dúirt sé faoin Seanadóir Whitaker, an Seanadóir Mulcahy agus an Seanadóir Brugha a bhí mar chomhalta de Chomhairle na Gaeilge.

Luaigh chuid mhaith de na Seanadóirí cúrsaí oideachais agus staid na Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais. Ba mhaith liom tagairt ar an bhfadhb a fheicimse sna scoileanna, sé sin, easpa téacsleabhar do na daltaí scoile. Níl fhios agam faoin chaighdeán atá sna scoileanna. Bhí a lán le rá ag na Seanadóirí faoin chaighdeán sna coláistí oiliúna agus an caighdeán atá ag na habhar-mhuinteoirí atá ag teacht amach as na coláistí oiliúna. Táim cinnte go bhfuil easpa téacsleabhar agus ba mhaith liom go ndéanfaidh an Roinn iarracht eile na téacsleabhair a chur ar fáil.

Táim sásta go mbeidh an bord nua ag déanamh caidreamh le Radio Telefis Eireann i dtaobh níos mó suime a chur sa Ghaeilge agus ba mhaith liomsa go mbeadh béim ar chláracha Gaeilge ar RTE 2 nuair a chuirtear ar bun é, agus go mbeidh cláracha speisialta i gcomhair páistí óga nuair a chuirtear RTE 2 ar siúl. Tá cláracha cosúil le "Trom agus Éadrom" an-shuimiúil mar go bhfuil ceol, damhsa, filíocht agus scéalta ann, agus mar go bhfuil na cláracha sin i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla. Ba mhaith an rud é go mbeadh cláracha mar sin ar siúl ar an dteilifís, mar shampla, "Tráth na gCeist" agus go mbeidh ceisteanna san dá theanga ann.

Tá a lán le déanamh freisin ag an mbord le Cumann Lúthchleas Ghael, agus is maith an rud é go bhfuil comórtais cosúil le Scór na nÓg ar siúl. Tá i bhfad níos mó le déanamh, sílim, ag Cumann Lúthchleas Ghael i saol na ndaoine chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn. Ba mhaith liom go gcoinneoidh Bord na Gaeilge an caidreamh sin ar siúl leis an eagras sin.

Tá sé soiléir ón méid a dúirt an Aire go bhfuil tacaíocht an phobail ag dul don Ghaeilge. Luaigh an Aire dhá bhaile, Caisleán an Bharraigh agus Rath Cúil, áiteanna a raibh feachtas speisialta ar siúl. Feicimid in áiteanna eile ar fud na tíre go bhfuil seachtain Ghaelach ar siúl. Ba mhaith liomsa go mbeadh seachtain Ghaelach nó rud speisialta mar sin ar siúl ar fud na tíre agus go mbeadh seans ag na daoine an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus Gaeilge a bheith ann mar gnáthmheán cumarsáide.

Mar a dúirt mé, tá sé soiléir go bhfuil suim i gceol agus i gcluichí agus i damhsaí Ghaelacha agus tá an teanga fite-fuaite istigh leis na rudaí sin go léir. Níl a dhóthain ar an dteilifís chun an traidisiún sin a fheiceáil. Ba mhaith liom go gcuirfímís na cláracha sin ar siúl.

I gcontae cosúil le Gaillimh, áit a bhfuil Radio na Gaeltachta, tá seans againn cláracha speisialta a chloisteáil, agus ba mhaith liomsa go mbeadh oifígeach oideachais i ngach contae, go háirithe i gcontae ina bhfuil Gaeltacht ann agus contae ina bhfuil Radio na Gaeltachta le cloisteáil. Sa chaoi sin bheadh seans againn, b'fhéidir, cúrsaí oideachais a chur ar siúl ar Radio na Gaeltachta. 'Sé atá i gceist agam ná adult education officer nó education officer a bheadh ag plé le cúrsaí oideachais agus a thabharfadh seans do dhaoine cúrsa oideachais a leanúint ar raidio. Tá sé sin ana-thábhachtacht in áiteanna ina bhfuil Radio na Gaeltachta le cloisteáil.

Mar focal scoir, ba mhaith liom aris fáilte a chur roimh an mBille seo agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis an mbord gach a bhfuil ceaptha acu a dhéanamh a chur chun críche agus tá súil agam freisin go mbeidh tacaíocht an phobail ag dul don Ghaeilge leis na mílte bliana eile.

Ar dtús is mian liom a rá go bhfuil áthas orm gurb é Bord na Gaeilge teideal don Bhille seo agus nach "Bord na Gaeltachta" an teideal. Is iomaí uair a cheap mé go raibh an teideal mí-cheart ag an Aire. Ceapaim féin go mba chóir "Aire na Gaeilge" a bheith mar theideal aige os rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeilge níos tábhachtachtaí sa Ghalltacht ná sa Ghaeltacht. Más mian linn an Ghaeilge a shábháil, ceapaim féin gur san nGalltacht a dhéanfaimid an obair sin. Tá an obair níos deacra sa Ghalltacht ná sa Ghaeltacht. Is iomadh uair freisin a cheap mé go bhfuil sé riachtanach deontas £10 a thabhairt do pháistí sa Ghaeltacht as an Ghaeilge a labhairt sna tithe agus go mba cheart freisin an deontas céanna a thabhairt do pháistí na Galltachta a bhfuil an Ghaeilge go líofa acu. Ceart go leor, b'fhéidir nach mbeadh an Ghaeilge á labhairt acu sa bhaile ó mhaidin go hoíche; ceapaim féin más féidir leo an Ghaeilge a labhairt go líofa go mba chóir don Aire an deontas céanna a thabhairt dos na páistí seo.

Freisin, tá deontas tithe £2,000 ar fáil do dhaoine sa Ghaeltacht os rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeilge á labhairt sna tithe agus os rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeilge go líofa acu. Ceapaim féin go dtabharfadh sé misneach do dhaoine sa Ghalltacht dá mbeadh na deontais céanna le fáil san Ghalltacht. Arís, b'fhéidir nach mbeadh an Ghaeilge á labhairt acu gach lá ach más féidir leo an Ghaeilge a labhairt go líofa sílimse go mba cheart an deontas céanna a thabhairt dóibh leis na tithe a chur suas.

B'fhéidir go ndéartar go bhfuilfimid ag cailleadh na Gaeilge má dheinimid sin, ach ceapaim má tá sé ceart é a dhéanamh sa Ghaeltacht go bhfuil sé ceart freisin é a dhéanamh sa Ghalltacht. Má dhéantar sin sílimse féin go dtabharfaidh sé misneach don aos óg agus dos na daoine fásta níos mó Gaeilge a labhairt sa Ghalltacht agus sin é an dóigh amháin inar féidir linn an Ghaeilge a shábháil, 'sé sin, níos mó oibre a dhéanamh i ngach áit sa tír.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an bord seo á chur ar bun arís agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leo ina gcuspóir.

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focail a rá ar dtús. Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille agus fáilte freisin roimh an Aire, agus táim cinnte go ndéanfaidh sé a dhícheall ar son na Gaeilge. I speak not as one of the Gaelgeoirí who have spoken previously and for whom I have the greatest admiration and respect, but as one of those to whom An Bord Gaeilge will be devoting its attention. In other words, I do not belong to the minority of Gaelic speakers which unfortunately is so small but to the large majority who are very much in favour of the language, who have some Irish, who wish to use it, increase their knowledge of it, and who wish to see Irish playing an increasing part in our everyday life as well as in national affairs.

I am very glad to see the wide powers which in effect have been given to the board under this Bill. Section 3 states:

(1) Déanfaidh an Bord an Ghaeilge, agus go háirithe a húsáid mar theanga bheo, a chur chun cinn.

(2) Chun a fheidhmeanna a chomhlíonadh féadfaidh an Bord aon ní is iomchuí leis a dhéanamh ag teacht leis an mbeartas ginearálta,

These are very wide powers indeed which will be needed because to restore the usage of a language is one of the most massive tasks that any nation can attempt. I do not say to revive it because we have made a success of the revival of Irish. Irish is once again a living language which is a major factor in this country's life. The question now is of extending its use on an everyday basis. It is only appropriate that we do so, not only because, as other speakers have commented, it forms an important part of our heritage, but perhaps because we do not fully realise just what a magnificent part it plays. It is one of the great languages of civilisation. It is, together with Greek and Latin, one of the three oldest vernacular languages in Europe and it also has many unique features which are rarely found in other western European languages.

If one uses an expression such as "Tá sé ina mhúinteoir", one has to go to Russian or Finnish to find a corresponding expression or way of speaking. There are many other unique features of the language, including perhaps one of the most interesting aspects which is its exactness for a translator. Words which are in common usage in English, in common usage in the Oireachtas and in Government documents, such as "development" in fact are very inexact words in English and were one putting these words into Irish, as our translators have to do for a Bill such as this and for many other Bills, one would find oneself translating what is a vague concept in English into a very exact concept in Irish. We often think of the many English importations into Irish. We do not realise quite so often how many importations there are into English from Irish. For example, in English one of the most difficult phrases for a Frenchman or a German to learn to differentiate between is "I go" and "I am going". This, although such an essential and distinctive part of the English language today, is a relatively recent development in English whereas in Gaelic it is a conception which has been going for over 1,000 years and imported from the Gaelic into the English.

If we are reviving a language we have to be extremely positive about it. We also have to be extremely understanding. I recommend the very excellent report which was prepared by An Coiste um Thaighde ar Dhearcadh an Phobail i dTaobh na Gaeilge, i 1975 for the Minister. It is an excellent report by any standards, scientific or otherwise, thoroughly researched, carefully documented and an extremely vital report for any serious effort to extend the use of Irish. It is quite a long report, but among the points mentioned in it are the serious problems which affect the notice speaker of Gaelic. If one goes to France or Germany people will accept that one's knowledge of their language is perhaps inadequate, but one is quite happy about using it. It is not always the case here. There is somewhat of a gap between the Gaelgeoir speaking the Irish language and those of us whose knowledge is much more limited. If Irish is to spread and to be widely used it is absolutely vital that this gap be narrowed. The only way it will be a living language is if the people as a whole, or substantial numbers of them, are willing to speak the language even if their knowledge is not perfect and then to gradually improve their knowledge. One of the very interesting things about this report is where it comes across this aspect at page 336 and was obviously somewhat surprised by it. It states:

To conclude, the establishment of Irish usage in an existing relationship, or the building of new relationships through Irish, faces individuals who want to speak and expand their use of Irish with very serious problems— more serious than we had anticipated.

Most Gaelgeoirí are extremely helpful and understanding. Even so it is very difficult to appreciate the problems facing someone who has a little Irish and wishes to speak more of it. One finds, for example, that almost immediately the fluent Irish speaker, perhaps in order to save one embarrassment, will switch into English and continue to speak in English where certainly one would be very glad if, they did switch entirely into English and continue in English but gave a little support. It is essential for Gaelgeoirí to do this whenever they find someone using a little Irish. The Cathaoirleach is most helpful in this respect. It must be realised that there is an enormous gap for somebody able to read Irish, perhaps slowly, and able to speak a few or quite a few words, but who is lost very quickly if someone is speaking fluently and repidly in Irish. Fluent Irish speakers should place themselves in the position of the novice, or the person without an enormous usage, where it becomes a very different matter.

Page 356 of this report reads:

In the past, Irish language policies were based on a misunderstanding of the potentialities of the existing educational system. Although that system was not designed to produce communicative competence in second languages, it was taken for granted that the task of producing Irish speakers could be left mainly to the schools.

There is a slight danger here, with the trend of some of the communications I have heard in regard to Bord na Gaeilge It is no use now thinking that perhaps we have emphasised the writing of Irish too much in the past, and not empasised oral Irish sufficiently. It would also be totally inadequate to assume that we can now, by putting an emphasis on oral Irish, totally correct the position. I am not saying that the emphasis should not be more on oral Irish—it is absolutely essential that it should—but let us not assume that it can all be done by the schools. It cannot. A little further down it makes the very correct point:

Given the complexity of the problems involved it is, therefore, our very strong conviction that unless future policy developments are based on solidly researched foundations— particularly in sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics—and unless the consequences of policy alternatives are being continuously monitored we could very easily end up with a cumulative decline in Irish over the next 50 years.

It is absolutely essential for Bord na Gaeilge to have some form of monitoring system of the effects of the various proposals, projects, and plans they are putting forward. If they do not do so they will be working very much in the dark, and the benefit of the many excellent plans which I understand they will be carrying out will be largely lost.

Another point in the same paragraph is that:

The policies adopted up to now have failed to arrest the decline of Irish in the Gaeltacht——

Senator Whitaker commented on this ——but have built up levels of ability and usage in non-Gaeltacht areas which numerically offset the losses in the Gaeltacht. This apparent equilibrium conceals the fact that the use of Irish as a community language is still diminishing.

Here again we come back to the essential point of the spread of the usage of Irish. The Gaeltacht areas are absolutely vital and should get far more support than we have been able to give them in the past, but that is not enough in itself. Then they give a number of points on page 317 which are very important. These are that the critical areas appear to be

(i) Improving or renewing competence and preventing slippage.

On leaving school at present one has a fairly good knowledge of written Irish, and I hope a knowledge of oral Irish, but given 18 months or two years that knowledge has sadly slipped. This is one of the areas which we will have to look at very carefully. How can opportunities be given, encouragement be given, to the usage of Irish during that critical two- to three-year period. After that period to get people to start relearning the language over again in their twenties, thirties or forties is a very difficult if not an impossible task.

(ii) Building up competence through school curricula.

This is an obvious thing which I am sure Bord na Gaeilge will be looking at.

(iii) Improving ability levels in adults.

(iv) Translating current and any future build up of ability into usage.

(v) The use of Irish on the broadcasting media——

which we suggest.

(vi) The capacity of the public service to respond to the use of Irish and particularly to serve the Gaeltacht areas through Irish.

(vii) The correction of population decline and language shift in the Gaeltacht areas.

(viii) Provision of educational facilities through Irish at every level for Gaeltacht students and an adequate supply of appropriate textbooks in Irish.

Here there seems to be in practical terms a great lack. If one wishes to read in French, for instance, one finds many books available in which one has for example dual translations—on the left the French, on the right the English or whatever the other language may be. If one is a modest reader of French, one is able to read on the French page and occasionally glance over, where necessary, to the English or German translation. Rapidly one's ability to read that language increases. If on the other hand one takes up an Irish book and one has a modest knowledge of the language one finds constantly that the flow of one's reading is being interrupted by the necessity to go to a dictionary, perhaps to look at quite complex constructions. In effect, this militates against reading Irish. For all the support that has been mentioned of oral Irish it is essential also that the cultural heritage in reading Irish be increased. Opportunities should be provided for people who wish to continue to read Irish and to develop their reading.

Curiously enough, one of the very few textbooks or books available in this respect is "Tithe an Oireachtais, Tigh Laighin, Leinster House". This talks about our own Seanad Chamber. Gaelic is used on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side there is English. So you can largely read through the Irish with only the occasional glance at the English. It is a small practical point, not perhaps apparent to somebody whose Irish is already extremely fluent. We should be interested in people whose Irish is not already fluent but who are anxious to increase their proficiency and we should be doing a lot more to help them.

One of the other points which is extremely important and of which we should not lose sight is that, by and large, most people are in favour of the language. It is a question of using persuasion rather than pressure. If we do that, if we look at these small practical points, we may well look forward, quite rightly, to a considerable increase in the use of Irish, this magnificent cultural heritage of which we all are so proud.

Táimid go léir buíoch den Aire as ucht an Bhille seo a thabhairt os ár gcomhair inniu. Dúirt an tAire gur beag daoine san tir seo nar fhoghlaim an Ghaeilge ar scoil ach gur chaill siad é nuair a fhág siad an scoil mar nach mbíonn cleachtadh ag na daoine sin san teanga. Is oth liom a rá gur duine mise a chaill cleachtadh sa teanga, ach, pé scéal é, ba mhaith liom cúpla focail a rá inniu i dtaobh an Bhille.

Tá sé go soiléir dúinn go bhfuil difríochtaí ann i dtaobh cad atá le déanamh chun an Ghaeilge a leathnú i measc na ndaoine. Chuala mé daoine ag caint faoi Ghaeilgeoirí agus an Ghaeltacht agus cad a thuigeann na gnáth-dhaoine faoi Ghaelgeoirí, gur "elitist" é, duine nach bhfuil aon rud ina cheann ach an Ghaeilge, agus duine nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge aige níl sé ina Ghael cheart. Cad is ciall leis an bhfocal "Gaeltacht"? Do a lán daoine, ciallaionn an focal "Gaeltacht" áit ar a dtéann daoine ar scoil ón meán-aicme chun an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim san samhradh. An bhfuil sé fíor gurb é sin an t-aon rud a chiallaíonn "Gaeltacht"? Nó an gciallaíonn sé áit ina mbíonn gach rud Gaelach ann i measc na ndaoine—teanga, spóirt, rince agus ceol? An bhfuil siad sin le foghlaim san áit úd?

Ag caint faoin mbord seo, an mbeidh sé ann chun an Ghaeilge a spreagadh i measc na ndaoine san Ghaeltacht nó an mbeidh sé ann chun grá don Ghaeilge a leathnú i measc na ndaoine sna háiteanna eile sa tír? I gContae Chill Chainnigh tá Conradh na Gaeilge ag obair ar feadh mórán blianta chun an Ghaeilge a leathnú. Tá rudaí íontacha déanta ann. Bíonn deacrachtaí ann ag daoine cosúil liom féin nach bhfuil a lán Gaeilge acu, ach tá an conradh anois dhá-theangach. Is féidir liomsa dul síos go dtí Conradh na Gaeilge agus bíonn Gaeilge á labhairt acu ach muna bhfuil focal Gaeilge ag duine, úsáideann siad an focal Béarla. Is ceart é sin.

I dtaobh na teilifíse, tá an-obair á déanamh ag Liam Ó Murchú. Suíonn daoine síos nach bhfuil mórán Gaeilge acu agus bíonn áthas orthu nuair a bhionn focal san chlár go bhfuil aithne acu air. An tseachtain ina dhiaidh sin tuigeann siad focal eile. Is é sin an modh chun an Ghaeilge a spreagadh. Is oth liom a rá nach bhfuil am go leor ag an gclár sin. Tá uair go leíth ag an "Late Late Show". Bhí uair go leith ag "Trom agus Edrom" agus níl ach trí-cheathrú uaire aige anois. Cad na thaobh? Bhí an clár sin go hiontacht maith. Cad na thaobh go bhfuil laghdú ar an am a ritheann sé?

As I say, I am one of the people who lost their Irish through non-use. The non-use of the language is a symptom of what happens to most of us when we leave school. We do not get the opportunity to use the language. There is no use in any Department, even the Department of Education, sending me out a letter starting with "A chara" and finishing with "Is mise". Regardless of which Department it is, it is an insult to a person's intelligence to send him out a letter starting with "A chara", continuing in English, and finishing off with "Is mise," or "Is mise le fíor mheas". A number of organisations use the same type of address when sending out letters. They should either have the decency to send them out totally in Irish and, if the person cannot translate it himself, he can have it translated, or send it out totally in English if it is addressed to somebody who has no Irish.

I was talking to somebody who did an honours paper in the intermediate certificate on Wednesday. I asked him what it was like. He said it was very simple. When I asked him what he meant he said it was less difficult than last year's paper. I asked why this was so and I was told fewer people are learning the language in the secondary schools now and there is very little interest in the language and, if the papers set are easier, better results are obtained and more people will do Irish next year. If that is the thinking in official quarters, it will do more harm than good. People can see through things like that very easily.

What does the Gaeltacht mean to people outside the Gaeltacht areas? Is it an area which receives more than its fair share of Government funds in an attempt to keep people speaking Irish in an area where it had been dying? Is it a place where middle-class people can send their children for a year in an attempt to learn Irish or to get a better education than they were getting in their schools and then they can go back to the schools outside the Gaeltacht and forget all the Irish they learned?

How successful has the Gaeltacht been in maintaining our native culture in sport, in drama, in play? I wonder has it been successful? I sincerely hope that this board will not confine their activities in the main to the Gaeltacht areas but be effective right throughout the country.

The work done in non-Gaeltacht areas by people who are very interested in the Irish language and Irish culture often can be forgotten. We see Comhaltas Ceoltóiri and Conradh na Gaeilge working in places outside the Gaeltacht under difficult circumstances. The work they do may be forgotten, but they are doing a marvellous job for the Irish language and to foster a love of the Irish language. These people are not doing it because they are getting extra grants. They are not doing it because they are in what is classified as a Gaeltacht area. They are doing it because they love the language and they would like many others to love it also.

The Gaelic League has changed from the Gaelic League of 20 years ago when, if you spoke a word of English at a Gaelic League night you were thrown out and you were never let back in again. They will now allow you to speak English if you do not know Irish. They will try to speak Irish with you if you are not very good at it, and you can use English and Irish words mixed up. That is as it should be. You will never force a language down anybody's throat, and in the past this was attempted.

One of the major items the board should have a look at is the provision of books in the Irish language. The cost of buying Irish language books at present is totally prohibitive. Books costing nothing were published by the Russian Embassy and they are the best children's books I have seen published in the Irish language. It might be said this is propaganda, but it is a type of propaganda I should like to see extended. The language in the books is very simple and the beautiful illustrations are magnificent. They are an example of what could be done to make the Irish language more attractive to children.

I will not detain the House any longer. I welcome the Bill and I hope the members of the board will take cognisance of the fact that there is a need to spread the Irish language amongst people who have not got it at all. There is a need to spread it amongst those who have very little of it, and there is also a need to help the people who have a lot of it.

Ba mhaith liom cupla focal a rá i mBearla. I welcome the opportunity the Minister has given to people like me who might be reluctant to speak on the Bill in Gaeilge. I admit that I have not got a good knowledge of the Gaelic language. The fact that the Bill has been printed in English as well as Irish has widened the base on which discussion can take place. This is a helpful approach. It is a completely new approach, and I certainly welcome it. I welcome the provision in the Bill to promote the Irish language. The Minister said last week that he is relying on the co-operation of everyone. This is the proper approach, and the only approach to get results. I know how difficult it is to extend the use of the Irish language. Part of the area I come from has non-Irish speakers and part of it has Gaelic speakers.

In the past there was far too much of the fanatic on the part of those who believe very strongly in promoting the Irish language. I have watched this. Let me quote an example of how that attitude fails. In my own county a ceili was being promoted and those who were promoting it believed so strongly that there should be ceili dancing only that they stopped the band from playing an old-time waltz. To do that they had to switch off the power. Regrettably ceilis are no longer being held where they used to be. One should realise from that that being a fanatic about anything is the proper way to kill it.

I welcome the Bill and I congratulate the Minister. It is in keeping with his broad approach to everything he is doing to promote industry, the language and the whole development of the Gaeltacht. It gives us an opportunity to talk about developments in the Gaeltacht and to look at what is happening there. I have had occasion to meet the Minister and his secretary, Liam O Toibin. His approach is one I have always welcomed. When the Irish language is being spoken in company it is important to realise that somebody may not be very fluent in the language. I want to say publicly that I have always appreciated how quickly the secretary of the Department could recognise how important it was to keep everybody involved in the discussion taking place. That is the way to encourage all of us to get involved and to have a more reasonable approach to promoting the language.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I should like to remind the Senator that it is not in order to refer to officials of the Department.

I withdraw my remarks. I said that in good faith. I am not looking for any favours and I hope the House will accept that.

I should like to compliment the Department and the Minister on the great work they are doing for those who speak the language and for those living in the Gaeltacht areas, especially in my county. We have had tremendous industrial development in County Donegal. If that industrial development had not taken place, a very large sum of the taxpayer's money would have to be used to pay dole and unemployment benefit. The Department of the Gaeltacht deserve praise and support from all of us for the tremendous work they are doing in providing jobs in the Gaeltacht. Before you will get people to talk the language, you must provide the bread and butter. That is being done in a tremendous way. I admire the energy of the Minister. He spends time every week-end meeting the people and seeing how he can further the cause of those living in the Gaeltacht areas. I am hopeful that this new board will extend the Gaeltacht to the Breac-Gaeltacht.

This Bill will give everybody an opportunity to look at the whole programme to help those who would like to speak the Irish language. The BreacGhaeltacht is an area where we could make most progress and where we would be likely to get the quickest results. I would ask the Minister to see if it is possible to extend the available activities and benefits to the BreacGhaeltacht, for schools and housing.

I hope the Minister will not forget the hand-knit industries which are so important and so much a part of our tradition, and that he will not allow the hand-knit industries to be taken over completely by industrialists from outside who see them purely as a commercial venture. That would kill the tradition, the culture and the native tongue in the area. Unfortunately, many people come to the Gaeltacht to take advantage of the substantial grants available there and set up industries which could very easily kill the traditional hand-knit industries. No substitute which looks like a hand-knit garment should be allowed to be marketed under the name of being hand-knit. The Minister should take great care to ensure that does not happen.

I will conclude by telling a short story. On St. Patrick's Night I went to Gweedore and I was invited to say a few words. Gweedore is in the heart of the Gaeltacht. I said a few words in Gaelic and I said them in Bearla again. I just said I was glad to be in Gweedore and that I would like to assist every development taking place in Gweedore. Later another speaker said in Gaelic—hoping I might not understand—he was glad to see a change of heart from Senator McGowan because in the past I had not always been helpful to Gweedore and that I had tried very hard to take an AnCO training industry out of it. This was totally false. In fact, I have been helpful to Gweedore. It is my intention to go back to Gweedore and to be able to say mo chúpla focal i nGaeilge and to answer my friend in Gaelic in Gweedore.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an mBille seo. Tá cuspóir agus aidhm an-thábhachtach san mBille chun Bord na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn agus chun an teanga Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn imease na ndaoine. Tá brón orm a rá freisin go gcaithfidh mise caint as Béarla tar éis cúpla nóiméad.

Is deacair liom a thuiscint cén fáth nach mbaineann i bhfad níos mó daoine úsáid as an méid Gaeilge atá acu. Is deacair dom a thuiscint cad 'na thaobh nach ndeineann mise é sin freisin. Tá go leor Gaeilge ag daoine óga tar éis bheith ar scoil; tá cuid mhaith Gaeilge ag mórchuid de na daoine, san nGaeilge. Ag an agam ach go bhfuil an shuim ag mórchuid de na daoine san nGaeilge. Ag an am chéanna ní bhainimíd go léir úsáid aisti mar ba cheart. Ní bhainimíd anseo san Seanad úsáid as Gaeilge mar ba cheart. Is deacair é sin a thuiscint, mar tá an-ghrá ann agus tá an-shuim ann. B'fhéidir go bhfuil saghas psychological block ann. Ag an am chéanna tá job an-thábhachtach le déanamh ag an mbord seo, atá ceapaithe san mBille, agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leo an job sin a dhéanamh i gceart. Tá sé an-thábhachtach don tír agus dúinn uile sa tír.

Unfortunately, I find it necessary to comment also in English simply because it is too slow and too difficult to carry on this type of debate in Irish. That is something I really find hard to understand as I said because most people know enough Irish leaving school, and they retain enough, but lack of opportunity to use it, as Senator Lanigan suggested, is probably one of the reasons nach bhfuil sé ann go flúirseach. Possibly there is also a type of hesitancy or maybe a type of psychological block which we all may have to some extent. An cuspóir atá sa Bhille seo, the aim here, will help us all to get over this by speading an appreciation of Irish, by bringing to notice for public consideration and for action, areas where Irish can be used to very good effect to the benefit of those who wish to use it, and who have a genuine and undoubted basic desire to use it more, and to see it used.

It is most important that the influence and the work of the board should spread throughout the whole country, throughout the area of public work and public service and influence the normal and everyday life of the people. To do that, as envisaged in the Bill, a great deal of work obviously will have to be done in harmony with other Government Departments. There may be many areas where, for example, the board may be in a position to suggest changes and developments in the approach in our schools. The attitude to teaching Irish has improved tremendously over the past generation. A very definite and genuine love for Irish is indicated by the way it is taught. Many schools have set a very fine example. In my constituency, Scoil Bhride in Ranelagh has set an excellent example of co-operation between teachers and parents in promoting a genuine and a natural love of and attachment to the language for its own sake.

I should like to refer to a point which has been raised on other occasions, and possibly in this debate before I arrived, that is, how the oral Irish examination in the leaving certificate ranks for marking. Our basic policy is to encourage the spoken language, to encourage bilingualism, and it seems to me perfectly natural and logical that far greater emphasis should be put on the scrúdú béil, the spoken word, in the examination at the end of the students' term. I know the proportion of marks going to the oral examination has increased over the years but it should be as high as 50 per cent. After all, our basic aim is to encourage the spoken word. Surely we should pursue an educational course consistent with that and have an examination system based on the course which is logical to the basic policy. That would encourage the use of the language and a facility with the language even better than we have been able to achieve. There has been a tremendous improvement in the past generation. That is something which merits more consideration and more thought at leaving certificate level.

There are many other Departments of State where Bord na Gaeilge can assist and co-operate. Education is one of particular importance. I would also like to refer to the media and communication. RTE have had some excellent programmes designed to promote Irish. They have also, through Irish, succeeded in entertaining the public to a very high degree. It is generally accepted that programmes like "Trom agus Éadrom" and "Amuigh Faoin Spéir", particularly in their bilingual aspects, have been appropriate for promoting the use of Irish in an easy, relaxed and genuine manner.

In one of the earlier programmes designed to teach Irish, Buntús Cainte, the format and approach adopted was the best I have seen on RTE. Buntús Cainte hit the right note and in a relaxed, easy and genuine manner encouraged the use of Irish and did great good to the viewing public.

In the field of drama it has often struck me that a number of countries advance the image, the culture and the language of their own countries through the cinema. They promote the use of their language through the film industry. This is an industry which seems to have difficulty establishing a natural base in Ireland but some of the principles which apply to that also apply to radio and television. The use of Irish in drama should be seen essentially as a means of entertainment but if at the right note and in the right pitch it can have a tremendously beneficial effect in spreading the use of Irish and increasing the public's facility in the use of Irish. I would suggest that in the role of drama, where plays are presented as Gaeilge, it might be reasonable, and certainly not very revolutionary, to provide that type of drama with sub-titles in English. It would induce people who feel they have no Irish whatever not to turn off and it would also make it that much easier for people whose Gaeilge is cosúil leis an Gaeilge atá agam. It would fill in the gap so that the continuity is preserved. The use of bilinguals in that way, the dialogue as Gaeilge and sub-titles in English where it is appropriate in that type of drama, may be something which RTE and Bord na Gaeilge could consider in the future.

In areas such as health and justice it is absolutely essential that those for whom Irish is their first and natural spoken language should have available to them the services they are entitled to as citizens, in Irish as a principle, but also because of their right to treatment or access in the way which is most convenient to them. Indeed, in the areas of health I have no doubt there are many examples where people from the Gaeltacht find recovery, or involvement in treatment, much more difficult if they have to converse in English with the medical staff. That is obviously no fault of the medical staff but it is just one of these things which happens. Elderly people, particularly, whose every day language is Irish and who find it necessary to go to hospital are treated through English and there may be psychological problems. They have not only a right as a principle but they have a basic need to be treated professionally and competently as Gaeilge. The same principle should apply throughout many other areas of the public service but, in that area, the area of health, it is extremely important.

In conclusion, I would like to congratulate the Minister on introducing the Bill and also on his general attitude and the support he has given to the spread of Irish and the natural and aúthentic appreciation of Irish among the public. The public have been waiting for a Minister such as we have to bring to them what they are essentially looking for, an outlet for the Irish they have and a capacity to expand on what they already have. I welcome the Bill and I wish it every success.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an mBille. Mar a dúirt an tAire nuair a oscail sé an díospóireacht, bhí baint agam féin le fada leis an smaoineamh go mba cheart Bord na Gaeilge a chur ar bun, ar dtús, mar bhall an bhoird le trí bliana anois leis an Seanadóir Whitaker, agus roimhe sin mar Chathaoirleach Chomhairle na Gaeilge. I rith an ama nuair a bhí an chomhairle sin ag obair chun cabhair a thabhairt don Rialtas polasaí teanga a chur i bhfeidhm nó ar fáil, chuir mé amach cuid mhaith tuarascála ar ábhair éagsúla a bhain leis an teanga agus ba mhaith liom san díospóireacht seo cuid de na rudaí agus na smaointí a bhí sna tuarascála sin a phlé anseo. Chuireamar ár dtuairimí ar aghaidh don chéad uair i gComhairle na Gaeilge timpeall 1970 nó 1971, agus ní mór le rá é anois go bhfuilim ag cur fáilte roimh an mBille i 1978, sin tar éis ocht mbliana. Má thógann sé an méid sin ama chun nithe bunúsacha a bhaineann leis an tir a chur ag obair, go bhfóiridh Dia orainn, ach nílim ag rá nach bhfuil áthas orm anois go bhfuil Bord na Gaeilge tagtha i gcrích agus go bhfuil an Bille tar éis dul tríd an Dáil agus go bhfuil sé san Seanad.

San méid atá le rá agam tá mé chun cur síos ar bhun-aidhmeanna, polasaí agus stair na dtuarascála a tháinig ó Chomhairle na Gaeilge a bhí mar shaghas bunús i gcóir Bhord na Gaeilge. ‘Sé an rud is mó a chuireann isteach orm ná go bhfuilimid ag caint ar pholasaí dátheangachais, agus le fada an lá ceapaim go bhfuilimid ag dul amú ag cur an pholasaí sin i bhfeidhm mar go bhfuil an béim ar theanga in ionad é a bheith ar iompar na ndaoine nuair a bhíonn siad ag baint úsáide as teanga, agus i rith an tréimhse a bhí Comhairle na Gaeilge ag obair thángamar suas leis an choincheap ar a dtugtar diglossia, ón teanga Gréigis, ceapaim, “two tongues”. Chuireamar an choincheap sin ar fáil agus cuireadh fáilte roimhe ar dtús, ach ina dhiaidh sin tháinig na daoine a bhí ag obair ar son na Gaeilge le chéile agus ní rabhadar chomh sásta leis an choincheap. Ceapaim féin go dtí seo go bhfuil sé bunúsach mar choincheap agus go gcaithimid níos mó ama a thabhairt leis an gcóras atá taobh thiar den nós seo coincheap-diglossia. Sna tuarascáil “Towards a Language Policy” do coincheap-diglossia. Sa tuarascáil liom e a leigheamh ar dtús. Léighfidh mé as Béarla é ionas go mbeidh gach éinne in ann an coincheap a thuiscint mar tá sé teicniúil go leor. Ag baint úsáid as Béarla i lár an méid Gaeilge atá le rá agam ceapaim go bhfuilim ag tabhairt an saghas sampla go mba cheart a bheith á thabhairt ó thaobh fhorbairt dhá-theangachais.

1. An Chomhairle's main task is to advise the Government on how the Irish language can be restored as the general medium of communication. The advice must describe a set of procedures, to be established under State guidance and with State support, which would bring about the desired aim. Since this aim cannot be achieved except progressively over an extended period, consideration has to be given to the process through which the Irish community will have to pass in going from the present situation to the desired one. This process must include phases of bilingualism and, viewing the time schedule realistically, it is appropriate at this stage to direct all available efforts and resources towards a bilingual objective. This approach will not limit the options between the various linguistic alternatives which may be available to future generations.

2. Bilingualism is a complicated phenomenon. An indication of its many aspects and of the various scientific disciplines involved in its analysis is to be found in the paper Language and Community by Máirtín Ó Murchú, Comhairle na Gaeilge, Occasional Paper No. 1. This paper shows how a bilingual situation may be described and measured from time to time and how its development will depend on the degree to which the community accepts a social convention of language behaviour and on the extent to which social forces support this convention.

3. Widespread bilingualism within a community has in the past usually arisen from a complex interaction between groups using different languages. A linguistic community of this kind may be in the process of a fairly rapid language shift, such as the shift from Irish to English in this country during the nineteenth century. Instead of developing towards a unilingual situation, however, the position of both languages may become stabilised as a result of the association of each with separate domains or functions, that is, with occasions on which one language is predominantly used rather than the other. The situation of patterned language use is technically referred to as diglossia. A more detailed description of diglossia and of its relationship to bilingualism is to be found in Máirtín Ó Murchú's paper.

Ceapaimse go bhfuil an rud seo an-thábhachtach. Is ionann sin is a rá ó thaobh polasaí de, go gcaithfidh Bord na Gaeilge a bheith ag obair ar dhá chois, cos amháin a bhaineann le teanga agus cé chomh héifeachtacht agus atá duine ag baint úsáid as teanga, pé Gaeilge nó Béarla é, agus an chos eile ná an t-iompar. Cad iad na hócaidí go mbainfear úsáid as Gaeilge níos mó ná Béarla nó Béarla níos mó ná Gaeilge? An bhféadaimis na hócáidí sin a aimsiú, fograíocht a dhéanamh orthu agus cabhair a thabhairt do dhaoine, an nós a chur ar fáil go mbeadh Gaeilge in úsáid ar ócáidí speisialta? Cad iad na hócáidí sin? D'fhéadfaí iad sin a fháil amach trí thaighde agus trí theisteáil. B'fhéidir go mbeadh ócáidi áisiúla ann Gaeilge a úsáid ins an teach, idir an chlann, ag an mbord, ag tógáil bia, ag dul go dtí áiteacha faoi leith, dramaíocht faoi leith, ceol faoi leith, ócáidí ina bhéas ceol ar siúl, ócáidí a bhaineann le cúrsaí riaracháin phoiblí agus mar sin de.

Is ionann sin is a rá go gcaithfeadh pé daoine a beadh ag obair ar pholasaí teanga an méid ama a thabhairt ag déanamh staidéir ar na hócáidí sin agus iompar daoine is a gcuirfí isteach ar staidéar ar an dteanga féin. Ní hionann sin is a rá gur cheart stáidear an teanga nó "quality" an teanga a chur ar leataobh. Caithfimid dul ar agaidh go tréan ar an dá chois—an theanga agus iompar.

Tá cúrsaí faoi leith a thagann faoin teideal "social liguistics" i mBéarla agus tá daoine timpeall an domhain ag déanamh staidéir ar language behaviour, social linguistics, ach an rud a chuireann isteach ormsa nach bhfuil sa tír daoine atá cáilithe, ar an gcéad dul síos, mór go leor san ábhar sin nó má tá cúpla daoine ann, níl dothain acu ann. Tá an tír seo ag iarraidh athrú teanga, ag iarraidh athrú iompar na ndaoine a bhaint amach sa tslí go mbeidh siad ag baint úsáid níos mó as an Ghaeilge ná mar atá siad anois ina ngnáth-chumarsáid gach lá. Táimid ag déanamh é sin ó 1900 nó mar sin agus níl na daoine cailithe againn fós chun staidéar mar sin a dhéanamh. How are we going to produce this massive shift in the fundamental behaviour of people in communicating without the technical and professional back-up of the social linguistic studies?

It is important to recognise that the replacement policy for the language that we had over the earlier years failed. It is psychologically important for us to say that. It was never possible for Irish to replace English as the medium of communication here as long as we were inundated with communications coming on the east side from the UK through the medium of English and on the west side from the Americas through the medium of American English. Through television this was amplified in this century. It was never on and it is important that we recognise that because there are still some people here who would be considered as supporters of the Irish language who would want a replacement policy. They may not say it openly but deep down that is what they want. They have it tied relentlessly with patriotism and it causes problems and it will mean we will never succeed. I could not get Comhairle na Gaeilge, when I was chairman of it, to agree with that. I personally believe it to be true. It would be a psychological rinse-out for the nation to accept it. We have to find ways of bringing about a situation where two languages will be used in a stable fashion in situations which people recognise as being appropriate. This appropriateness will be developed over time in the normal pattern of behaviour. It will be reinforced and rewarded by the normal social interactions that go on between people when they communicate.

The purpose is bilingualism. If we organise the State's effort around that we may succeed. If the effort is about the restoration of the Irish language with the emphasis on language as literature or language as spoken without thinking about the behaviours that go with the use of that language, the whole thing is dead.

Chun na polasaí sin, polasaí a bhaineann le cúrsaí iompair agus cúrsaí úsáid teanga agus an teanga ina dhá thaobh, do cheapadh, ba cheart institiúdí faoi leith a bhunú chun é sin a mháirseáil, chun é a rialú, agus is as sin tháinig na moltaí i gcóir Bord na Gaeilge. Ba mhaith liom a chur os comhair an tSeanaid go raibh níos mó ná Bord na Gaeilge ag baint leis na moltaí seo.

The summary of the introduction to "Implementing a Language Policy", which I signed said:

The Key recommendations of the Report are

that the general function of extending the use of Irish throughout the country should be assigned to a new statutory board, to be called Bord na Gaeilge; —that (as envisaged in the report of Gaeltarra-SFADCO working group Gníomh don Ghaeltacht) all the Gaeltacht development functions should be assigned to a separate statutory board to be called Udarás na Gaeltachta; and

—that both of these boards should be the responsibility of a new Department to be called Roinn na Gaeilge.

The effective implementation of these arrangements will require a radical reorganisation of the administration structures at present dealing with the Irish language. It will also require leadership from the Houses of the Oireachtas, as well as a renewed commitment and a greater measure of support from the community as a whole. I believe that, given the necessary administrative measures and public commitment, there is a good prospect of our achieving in the foreseeable future the objectives suggested in the Report.

This is from "Implementing a Language policy", April 1972.

Is ionann sin agus a rá go bhfuil an polasaí seo bunaithe ar níos mó ná Bord na Gaeilge. Tá sé bunaithe freisin ar údaras na Gaeltachta a bheith curtha ar bun. Tá sé bunaithe freisin ar an dtuiscint go mbeadh cúrsaí riaracháin taobh thiar den rud a oibreoidh agus go gcuirfear dóthain achmhainí ar fáil chun an polasaí a chur ag obair.

Go dtí seo, níl údarás na Gaeltachta againn chomh maith. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil sé geallta ag an Aire agus táimíd ag feithimh freisin i gcomhair an lae go mbéimíd ag díospóireacht anseo ar údarás na Gaeltachta, ach caithfimíd a thuiscint go dtéan Bord na Gaeilge agus údarás na Gaeltachta le chéile mar ní bhéimís in ann an teanga a chur ag obair i gceart muna mbeidh an Ghaeltacht ag forbairt sa tslí cheart ó thaobh teanga de.

An rud is mó a fheicim ó thaobh na haidhme atá ag Bord na Gaeilge seo ná, go bhfuil freagracht faoi leith ar Bhord na Gaeilge a chinntiú go mbeadh polasaí teanga, polasaí dhá-theangachais ag obair go sláintiúil i ngach réimse den tír go bhféadfadh Bord na Gaeilge dul i bhfeidhm air. Ar an gcéad dul síos is féidir le Bord na Gaeilge dul i bhfeidhm ar na heagrais Stáit agus na hinstitúidí Stáit. Bhí cur síos san Dáil sna díospóireachtaí go dtí seo go mb'fhéidir nach bhfuil fiacla a ndóthain ag Bord na Gaeilge. Ceapaim go mbraitheann rud mar seo ar na daoine a bheadh ar an mbord agus ar an bpríomh-oifigeach a bheadh ar an mbord—feicim go bhfuil na príomh-oifigigh atá againn ag éisteacht anseo—agus go mbeadh na daoine sin láidir agus go rachaidís abhaile ar pé eagrais Stáit nó pé Roinn Stáit nach mbeadh ag cur polasaí ceart dhá-theangachais ag obair.

San díospóireacht go dtí seo do labhair cúpla daoine mar gheall ar an áit is tanaí, is laige ón dtaodh sin de—do labhair an Seanadóir Whitaker air agus daoine eile—agus is í sin an Roinn Oideachais. Le deich mblian anuas ó bhí aon bhaint agamsa le cúrsaí teanga tá an Roinn sin ag cur deacrachtaí os comhair na mbeartas éagsula a bhíonn ar siúl agus ní bhíonn siad ag comhoibriú. Bhí mé in ann, mar chathaoirleach ar Chomhairle na Gaeilge, coiste faoi leith a chur ar fáil ar a raibh Rúnaí Cúnta don Roinn Oideachais ag obair agus chuir an chomhairle tuarascáil ar fáil ar cad ba cheart a dhéanamh san Roinn ó thaobh Gaeilge de. Chun an coiste sin a chur ar fáil do bhí orm dul timpeall mar shaghas sagairt nach mór ag impí ar gach éinne teacht le chéile chun cur síos ar Ghaeilge. An tuairim a bhí agam an uair sin ná gur cheap an Roinn Oideachais gur leo an teanga Gaeilge. Caithfimid a thuiscint go mbaineann an Roinn Oideachais le cúrsaí oideachais, ní le teanga. Tá feidhm oideachais le comhlíonadh acu. Sé sin le rá ranganna a chur ar fáil, instituidí oideachais a chur ar fáil agus mar sin de. Ach anois tá Bord na Gaeilge ann agus níl freagracht ar Bhord na Gaeilge ach i leith teanga. Sin é an rud nua atá ann agus sin é an rud go gcuirimse fáilte mhór roimhe.

Ag teacht thar nais go dti an Roinn Oideachais, cuireadh an tuarascáil sin amach timpeall 1972-3 agus do bhí timpeall sé leathanacha d'athchoimre ar na moltaí a bhí san tuarascáil sin ó thaobh na Roinne—sé leathanacha—ag leagadh amach cad ba cheart a dhéanamh sna réamh-scoileanna, sna meán-scoileanna, sna scoileanna san tríú leibhéál, cad ba cheart a dhéanamh sa Roinn Oideachais féin, cad iad na saghas coistí agus mar sin de. An chéad rud a dhein Bord na Gaeilge nuair a thángadar le chéile—an Bord atá ann anois—ná iarraidh ar an Roinn cad iad na tuairimí a bhí acu ar an tuarascáil sin a cuireadh amach i 1972 nó 1973 agus ní chualamar faic uathu.

Sin é an saghas rud atá ar siúl, sin é an saghas rud a chuirfidh deireadh le dhá-theangachas agus deireadh leis an teanga muna ndeintear rud é igin mar gheall air. Táimse ag rá anseo inniu go bhfuil freagracht ar Bhord na Gaeilge é sin a chur ag obair agus gan chur suas leis an saghas rud sin agus go gcaithfidis dul os comhair an phobail agus é a rá go hárd agus go soiléir. Tá an fhreagracht ar Bhord na Gaeilge anois. Ní feidir leo a rá go mbaineann sé sin le cúrsaí oideachais, go mbaineann sé sin leis an Roinn seo nó an Roinn siúd. Ó thaobh an pholasaí ghinearálta tá an fhreagracht ar Bhord na Gaeilge. Caithfidh siad í a chomhlíonadh agus ar aghaidh leo.

Ó thaobh polasaí mar seo a chur ag obair agus a bheith soiléir faoi na bunaidhmeanna a bhaineann leis, ceapaimse, mar speisialtóir ag bainistíocht, go bhfuil sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go mbeadh na bunaidhmeanna leagtha síos go soiléir. Dheineamar iarracht na haidhmeannaí sin a leagadh síos ins an tuarascáil.

Deireann sé ag leatheanach 1:

... It explains that a behavioural system can exist in a bilingual community which not only maintains the speech pattern fairly stable but accords both languages acceptable status. Such an equilibrium will be achieved in this country only after a long period and may vary according to the prevailing conditions, social and political, in future years. We feel that the principle of a flexible and gradual approach to the problem would be acceptable to the whole Irish community. Once Irish was established as a widely spoken language it might happen that the then current community opinion would wish it to attain a stronger position. In certain areas, of course, Irish would continue to be the principal language. The challenge of the moment is to generate a trend towards a realistic equilibrium.

That is accepting an equilibrium in a situation where Irish and English are used in a stable fashion within this diglossic framework. In an attempt to put a figure on this, what are you moving towards? What is the measure of this now and what measure would you like to see in the future? We go on to paragraph 1.4 of that report:

The Paper emphasises that the evolutionary process towards a situation in which Irish has an established place in the community's speech pattern will take place over a long period. The time-scope of socio-linguistic planning must be seen in terms of decades rather than years. While keeping in mind that the goal is the restoration of the Irish language as a general medium of communication, it is important that intermediate aims for relevant periods ahead be defined and widely communicated. We suggest that these might be expressed in terms of the proportion of conversation carried out in Irish by the average person each day. At present this is probably less than 5%; it would be much higher for a typical Gaeltacht resident and lower for others.

I notice the careful hedging which obviously indicates the effort to get the consensus in a comhairle of 30 people.

If research supports it, a reasonable aim might be, say, 20% use of Irish, on average, by persons outside the Gaeltacht by the end of the century... .

Ceapaimse go mba cheart bun-fheidhm mar sin a chur os comhair na ndaoine agus a bheith ag caint mar gheall air. Dá bhféadaimís glacadh go mbeadh 30 faoin gcéad de na gnáth-dhaoine sa bhliain 2000 ag baint úsáid as Gaeilge ar feadh 20 faoin gcéad don am gach lá, ag deireadh na tréimhse sin bheadh polasaí na Gaeilge sroiste againn agus bheadh an aidhm sroiste againn agus bheadh an Ghaeilge sábháilte. Caithfimíd anois, ón lá seo an trend a athrú. Dá bhféadfaimís an trend a athrú bheadh an bhua againn, ach nílimse sásta fós go bhfuil an trend sin ag athrú.

When I speak about a 20 per cent objective by the year 2000AD, I mean that the average Irish person for 20 per cent of the speech events that he or she would engage in every day would use Irish in such a way that it would be developed over the years by this pattern of diglossia. That does not mean 20 per cent of the people; it means all the people and 20 per cent of the speech events. That presupposes that everybody will know both languages, which in turn presupposes that we must aim towards having people proficient in both languages equally even if they do not use them for 50 per cent of the time. The challenge is before the Department of Education and the people of Ireland to deliver on it, if we accept that objective. If we do not accept that objective then I despair.

Conas a thárla an rud seo. Bhí mé ag éisteacht le Seanadóirí ag cur síos ar an stair a bhí taobh thiar den rud. Is dóigh liom gur mhaith an rud é cuid des na rudaí a thit amach a lua arís ó thaobh an "historic background". Tá an "historic background" curtha le chéile go hanmhaith ag Máirtín Ó Murchú san tuarascáil "Urlabhra agus Pobal", "Language and Community". Ag piocadh amach cuid de na rudaí a chuir sé isteach ann, taispeánann sé conas a tháinig an language shift ag cur Gaeilge amach agus Béarla isteach. Sé an dúbhshlán atá againn anois ná saghas reverse process a chur ag obair ó thaobh Gaeilge, glacadh, ag an am seo ar aon chuma, nach bhfuilimid ach ag iarraidh 20 faoin gcéad, an bhun-aidhm, a bhaint amach.

There are something between 3,000 and 4,000 languages in the world and bilingualism and multi-lingualism are the rule and not the exception. The monoglot is the exception. It might give us hope to think in those terms.

These are some of the items he draws attention to. He started off in the 16th century to trace what happened. He says on page 24:

There were some English-speaking groups in some urban areas and in parts of Leinster at that time, but they were marginal rather than central to the cultural and social pattern of the country as a whole.

Sometimes people have the idea that Irish was something that rural dwellers indulged in and that Dubliners always spoke English or maybe Latin. He continues:

Thus, Irish was dominant in all socio-linguistic domains which might have been distinguished in the society of the time, extending from a domain which might be described as public affairs to the household domain.

Again he is talking about the higher and lower forms of the use of the Irish language. As in English, one gets the language as it is used in the news and as it is heard in the back of the pub. What kind of language one gets will depend on where the pub is, then it will take on a dialectic of its own. There are variations within one language. Further on in the same paragraph he says:

... The shared possession and use of this—set of registers, very probably with some local variation, or accent, at the colloquial end of the scale, united very probably with some of the speech communities of Ireland and Gaelic Scotland into a single socio-linguistic group. It was for this reason that it was realistic to recommend to the English Government in 1604 that "Ministers that can speak Irish ...be gotten out of Scotland for the purpose of teaching the Protestant religion in Ireland."

Somebody in the higher levels knew and recognised the importance at that stage of knowing Irish if they were going to achieve a particular political policy in this country. On page 25 he says:

What eventually ensured a change in the socio-linguistic pattern was not the Government's feats nor the attempts to proscribe the native academy but the establishment of a new socio-economic order which followed the final conquest of Ireland during the reign of Elizabeth I.

The Irish began to realise that if they wanted to get on in life they would have to learn English and they are not going to unlearn it in this day and age Therefore we must accept the bilingual policy.

Another passage brings out the notion that there is a diglossic pattern of IrishEnglish usage in the country and there was more so in the past. It says on page 27:

... This diglossic pattern was so strong that lower class immigrants to rural Ireland such as the Palatines in Co. Limerick became Irish speaking.

In other words they had to learn Irish. It was not a case of somebody coming from another country and saying, "We use English because we can make do on it". They could not make do. They had to learn Irish to live in County Limerick at that time. At the end of the same page is the most shocking piece of all. It refers to the shift in the value placed on the Irish language:

Whatever beneficial effects this change in value position by members of the middle classes might have had in strengthening the position of Irish, they were more than off-set by the fact that the Catholic clergy were, by the same social processes, becoming increasingly middle class in status and, again as an inescapable consequence, in language as well. Accordingly, when the Royal College of St. Patrick was established in Maynooth in 1795 for the training of Catholic priests, English predictably became its institutional language....

Once again the institutions of our system helped to achieve the language shift away from Irish towards English, and it is my regret that even today the same thing exists.

The generalisation that I would draw from that is that the institutes of State—Government, Government Departments and also the Church which is so dominant in matters that affect ordinary practices in Irish life—will have to co-operate in this policy if it is going to get anywhere. It is high time to stop making excuses that people should know the Irish language before they are taken on in jobs of State. That they are technical in medicine, engineering or any other professional activity is not an excuse for not knowing Irish. If they are going to work in institutes of State in this country they should know the Irish language, otherwise they will not be able to contribute to the objective of using Irish for 20 per cent of the time in the year 2000 AD and at intermediate stages between now and then. It is as simple as that. It is not about right wing or unreasonable attitudes; it is about recognising whether they are serious about the objective. It makes me sick to hear people talking about whether Irish should be required for work in Irish State civil service activities.

The strongest influence in language behaviour outside the schools is of course RTE. It is important that an alternative to RTE be set up in this State because we need another approach to the promotion of the Irish language. RTE have done a reasonable job, but the lack of imagination in the promotion of the language over the first decade or 15 years of their activities is nothing short of appalling. I was on the RTE authority for a few years before a certain authority had to leave and I believe that if there were an alternative station, whether it operated under the State or under some independent body, the healthy competition that would exist between the two might produce a reasonable programme for the promotion of bilingualism in the strongest media of all, television and radio. I think of Riobárd Ó Faracháin and Séamus Kavanagh; I think of the work that Ciarán Mac Mathúna has done; he should have a "Late Late Show" devoted to him in recognition of the work he has done for the recovery of folk music. Excellent work is being done, but of the creative use of programming to promote bilingualism we saw nothing until Liam Ó Murchú came along with "Trom agus Éadrom". I hope that that will not be the exception that proves the rule. I hope that more creative programmes will come up that will not be built around one individual. I remember discussing with a producer in RTE that it was strange that people would turn off television when they saw an uileann píopa player sitting playing, bouncing his foot off the ground with a white wall behind him. That type of thing represents creative use of programming which competition would encourage. That is why I would like to see competition for RTE.

I have been waiting a while to say some of these things and I will not regret saying them. Bord na Gaeilge can make a tremendous contribution to the clarification and implementation of a policy along the lines that I have been talking about. Máirtín Ó Murchú in the conclusion to his occasional paper has a few interesting thoughts which I would like to put on the record of the House. On page 32 he says:

It needs, therefore, to be recognised that definitive and efficient planning by the State is as indispensable in this area of public concernment as in any other. Such planning requires a sophisticated view of what is involved together with a thorough knowledge of the existing state of affairs. It is necessary, therefore, to become more enlightened about socio-linguistic conditions in societies similar to our own and to carry out an exhaustive programme of research for the purpose of precisely determining the present socio-linguistic configurations of Irish society. Research, however, does not determine the goals of policy; it merely suggests the best means by which they might be attained. The goals themselves reflect a valueposition which leads a community's leadership to select one future objective rather than another.

In other words to select a 20 per cent objective for the year 2000 AD and accept it as a normative intention. The paper continues:

In the case of Ireland, the valueposition relevant to socio-linguistic planning involves the valid belief that it is essential to our authenticity and self-confidence as a nation that the Irish language be re-established in a central rather than a marginal position in the communicational matrix of our society. This, in effect, means setting as our immediate goal the attainment of an Irish-English diglossia in which Irish would have a significant part to play consistent with its function as the national language. Such a diglossia is not really new in our country: an Irish-English diglossia exists in the traditionally Irish-speaking areas; an Irish-English diglossia, with, of course, a different domain configuration, exists in embryo in the rest of the country; and, historically, as we have seen, the distinctive speech pattern of Irish Society from the seventeenth century to the cataclysmic events of the last was an Irish-English diglossia.

To develop it is Bord na Gaeilge's challenge. Deirim leis an bhfoireann a bheidh ag obair le bord na Gaeilge, "Bail ó Dhia ar an obair".

Ach tá rud amháin atá ag chur as dom. Ins an alt atá ag cur síos ar na feidhmeanna san Bille, baintear úsáid as na focail "beartas ginearálta". San aistriúchán atá ag dul leis an mBille, siad na focail atá ann ná "general policy". Ní maith liom an focal "beartas" mar ceapaim go mb'fhéidir go dtiocfadh duine éigin ar aghaidh agus go ndéarfadh sé: "It is only a beartas and that means you have to clear every project with the Minister before you can go ahead".

I would not like that interpretation to be taken from the Bill. If the Minister cannot see his way to changing "beartas" to "policy", I would like him to spell out in his reply that the intention behind it is that he will only be helping to lay down general policy for Bord na Gaeilge who will be allowed to operate freely within that without having to go back to clear every project that they think of.

I should not let this occasion pass without at least making one small comment which may assist in the objective of the Bill. I welcome the Bill and also the formation of Bord na Gaeilge. It is 20 years since I made a speech in Irish and the wheels have become so rusty that they have seized up completely and I would not dare attempt to speak in Irish today. I can think only of one occasion in the last 20 years on which I have been requested to speak in Irish and that was in Luxembourg when I was replying to a speech in French made by a French Minister. I thought that I should not let the side down, so I spoke partly in French, partly in Irish and with the majority of my speech in English. I was very glad that the interpreter was able to interpret my Irish into French correctly.

During that 20 years, it is understandable that a person living in an area like Cork city whose life is mainly concerned with industry, commerce and such like does not have occasion to speak in Irish and does not meet people who speak Irish. There are plenty of people in my circumstances who would like to restore their Irish, but there does not appear to be any way of doing it or any organisation which caters for it. If there is it has not been advertised. There are German circles and French circles where people meet once a week or once a fortnight to speak in the language of their choice. Some consideration should be given to the formation of Irish circles, but it should be advertised because a number of people who speak very little Irish are now attracted to it. This is borne out by the numbers who appreciate looking at the "Trom agus Éadrom" programme. Therefore, if you want to increase the use of the Irish language there is a field here, but you will have to put it under the people's noses that there is a way and that there is an organisation available where they can achieve their objective, to restore their use of the Irish language.

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh leis an tSeanad i ngeall ar chomh báúil agus a ghlac siad leis an mBille. Tugann sé an-mhisneach domsa an díospóireacht bhreá a cuireadh ar fáil anseo dúinn agus tá anáthas orm go raibh an oiread sin Seanadóirí sásta páirt a ghlacadh san díospóireacht.

Ní maith liom an iomarca moille a chur orthu mar ní bhéinn ach ag ath-rá cuid de na rudaí a dúirt mé sa Dáil nuair a bhí mé ag tabhairt freagra ar an Dara Céim den Bhille, ach mar sin féin, sílim nach mbeidh mé ach ag tabhairt cothrom na Féinne do chuile dhuine má luainn cuid de na príomh rudaí a bhí luaite so díospóireacht.

Luaigh an Seanadóir A. O'Brien go raibh spéis sa Ghaeilge ach go raibh deacrachtaí ann maidir leis an spéis sin a chur i bhfeidhm agus maidir le úsáid níos mó a bhaint as labhairt na Gaeilge. Sílim go dtig linn a rá gur luaigh cuid mhaith de na Seanadóirí an rud céanna. Tá daoine báúil le Gaeilge. Tá an cruthúnas ann go bhfuil sé sin fíor. Tá taighde déanta agus tá fhios againn go bhfuil daoine báúil le Gaeilge ach sé an deacracht atá ann ná nach bhfuil siad sásta úsáid a bhaint as an mbeagán Gaeilge atá acu. Sin an fhadhb is mó a fheicimse i láthair na huaire.

Luaigh sé chomh maith ceist téacsleabhar sna scoileanna. Caithfidh mé a admháil nach dtig le duine ar bith bheith sásta leis an chaoi ina bhfuil cúrsaí madir le téacsleabhair a chur ar fáil. Fiú amháin sna bunscoileanna, níl an cheist sásúil, agus nuair a thagann tú go dtí na meánscoileanna, nuair a théann tú ar aghadh níos faide le cúrsaí léinn, is ag dul i ndonacht atá an scéal. Níl fhios agam go baileach cén leigheas atá air. Sílim go mbíonn deacrachtaí go leor faoi théacsleabhair, iad a aistriú agus mar sin; ní dóigh liom gur ceist airgid atá ann—nach bhfuil go leor airgid curtha ar fáil chun an cheist sin a fheabhsú. Is dóigh gur rudaí mar seo a bhéas ag teacht faoí chúram an bhoird, go mbeidh siad, le caitheamh aimsire, in ann rudaí mar seo a scrúdú agus moltaí a chur os comhair an Rialtais nó na Roinne Oideachais, féachaint cén leigheas atá ar an scéal agus cén chaoi a dtig linn an rud a fheabhsú.

Duirt an Seanadóir de Brún cuid mhaith ina theanga bhreá líofa Ghaeilge, agus caithim teacht le chuile rud a dúirt sé. Bhí figiúirí aige, dar ndóigh, ar staid na teanga, an chaoi a bhfuil laghdú tagtha ar uimhir na scoileanna daraleibhéal atá ag caitheamh uathu an deis atá acu le Gaeilge a thabhairt do na scoláirí. Tá laghdú mór tagtha ar uimhir na scoileanna sin ó tháinig an saoroideachas isteach. Is deacair arís tuiscint conas a tharla sé sin. B'fhéidir gur míniú amháin air i gcuid de na scoileanna, go raibh níos páistí a fuair oideachas trí Bhéarla ag teacht chuig na scoileanna ná páistí a bhí ag fáil oideachais trí Ghaeilge agus go raibh sé níos furasta ag na múinteoirí iompú ar an mBéarla agus cúl láimhe a thabhairt don Ghaeilge. Más mian linn an scéal a fheabhsú, caithfimid ar a laghad, mar thús an méid Gaeilge atá sna scoileanna A. mar a thugtar orthu, a choinneáil.

Fiú amháin ag an bpointe seo, sílim go mbeidh dearcracht an-mhór ann an méid scoileanna atá ag múineadh na Gaeilge a choinneáil. Na figiúirí a thug an Seanadóir de Brún maidir leis an méid páistí nár éirigh leofa ins na scrúdaithe Ard Teistiméireachta agus Meán Teistimeireachta. ní cúis mhaoite de dhuine ar bith iad. Más rud é go dtugann siad le fios go bhfuil meas na ndaoine ar an nGaeilge ag dul i laghad, tugann sé le tuiscint dúinn ar fad an obair mhór atá os comhair an bhoird agus an obair thábhachtach atá le déanamh acu leis an rud sin a chloí agus le Gaeilge a chur ar ais arís ar a bhonna mar is cóir.

Maidir leis an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Murphy caithim a rá go dtigim le cuid mhór de. Luaigh sé chomh maith an pointe sin faoi cheist na Gaeilge ins na meánscoileanna, an rud a luaigh an Seanadóir de Brún, agus cúrsaí oideachais sna coláistí oiliúna, go raibh caighdeán Gaeilge a bhí ag bunmhúinteoirí ag laghdú agus nach raibh sé ró-shásúil i láthair na huaire. Sílim go n-aontaíonn gach uile dhuine go bhfuil an scéal sin ag dul i ndonacht ó cuireadh deireadh leis na coláistí ullmhúcháin agus is mór an trua é gur cuireadh ar ceal ar fad iad, cé go raibh sé costasach iad a choinneáil ar siúl, i bhfad níos costasaí ná an gnáth mheánscoil a choinneáil ar siúl. Sílim gur mór an trua é nar coinníodh ar a laghad ceann nó péire acu, ceann acu le haghaidh buachaillí agus ceann le haghaidh cáiliní. Sílim nach mbeadh an scéal chomh dona agus atá sé i láthair na huaire dó ndéanfaí sin.

Luaigh sé chomh maith, rud atá tábhachtach, an gradam a bhéas ag príomh oifigeach Bhoird na Gaeilge. Más maith linn na daoine is fiúntaí agus is fearr a fháil, caithfimid a bheith sásta íoc dá réir astu. Thiocfainn leis gur cheart go mbeadh aitheantas faoi leith tugtha don phríomhoifigeach seo a bhéas ag teacht leis an aitheantas atá ag dul do priomhoifígí na mbord Stáit is tábhachtaí atá againn. Sílim ag an bpointe seo gur cheart domsa a rá imo thuairimse, gurb é Bord na Gaeilge an bord is tábhachtaí a bunaíodh go fóill sa Stát seo agus má táimíd i ndáiríre faoin rud sin caithfimid bheith cinnte go mbeimíd in ann na daoine is fearr a dtig linn a fháil le freastail ar an mbord agus le gnó an bhoird a chur chun cinn.

Luaigh sé an tUdarás chomh maith ach ní bhaineann sé go díreach leis an mBilie seo. Ach ó tharla gur luaígh an Seanadóir Mulcahy é agus go bhfuil ar bealach dlúth-bhaint idir Bord na Gaeilge agus an tÚdarás tig liom a insint don Seanad go bhfuil an Bille á réiteach, go bhfuil sé le foilsiú agus gur féidir gur anseo a bheidh an chéad seans le díospóireacht a dhéanamh ar an mBille agus b'fhéidir le Dia go mbeidh sé sin againn roimh an tsaoire.

Thug an Seanadóir Cranitch óráid shuimiúil ar stair na teanga agus cúrsaí oideachais agus luaigh sé RTE chomh maith. Luaigh cuid mhaith de na Seanadóirí na ceisteanna céanna. San óráid a thug an Seanadóir Mulcahy, thug sé léargas an-shuimiúl ar an gcaoi a tháinig an Bhearla chun cinn agus an chaoi ar brúdh sé amach an Ghaeilge. Tugann sé sin arís le tuiscint dúinn na deacrachtaí a bhéas le sárú ag an mbord seo agus an méid oibre a bhéas le déanamh acu nuair a bheidh siad faoi lánseol.

Maidir le hoideachas, sílim go mbíonn daoine an-dhian ar an Roinn Oideachais. Rinne siad a ndícheall san am atá caite le cúrsaí a bheadh fábharach don Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn sna bunscoileanna. Bíonn ABC mar a thugamís air, le haghaidh na cúrsaí Gaeilge. Bhí sé leagtha amach go han-mhaith agus áit ar bith a raibh múinteoir a bhí sásta tabhairt faoi i gceart agus leanúint leis an gclár mar a bhí sé leagtha amach, sílím gur éirigh go maith leis. B'fhéidir go raibh béim an-mhór ar chúrsaí gramadaí agus ar chruinneas Gaeilge ach san am chéanna, bhí an prionsabal féin ceart agus sílim nach ar an Roinn Oideachais a bhí an locht mura raibh toradh níos fearr ar chúrsaí. Ní raibh meon na ndaoine féin ag teacht leis an nGaeilge, ní raibh siad báúil don Ghaeilge. Bhí daoine a bhí go síoraí ag caitheamh anuas air, ag caitheamh drochmheas air agus chuaigh sé sin i gcionn níos mó ar an bpobal agus ar na páistí ná mar a chuaigh an obair a bhí ar siúl ag an Roinn Oideachais fhéin.

Thug an Seanadóir Whitaker óráid an-bhreá dúinn agus thug sé cur síos dúinn ar imeachtaí an bhoird agus an méid a bhí déanta acu go dtí seo. Tig linn uilig a theacht leis agus aontú leis nuair a dúirt sé go raibh an bhunchloch leagtha ag an mbord anois. Bhí deacrachtaí acu. Tá fhios againn uilig go raibh deacrachtaí foirne acu. Bhí deacrachtaí acu le daoine a cheapadh agus ní raibh sé furasta an dul chun cinn a theastaigh uatha a dhéanamh a dhéanamh nuair nach raibh foireann sheasmhach acu agus nuair nár éirigh leofa daoine a fháil chomh réidh agus a theastaigh uatha iad a fháil. Luaigh sé ceist coistí comhairleacha. Sílim féin gur maith an tuairim é sin. Ba cheart go mbeadh an bord in ann dul i gcomhairle le daoine eile, saineolaithe agus a leithéidí sin agus dá mba rud é nach raibh an cumhacht sin acu, sílim go mbeadh sé ag cur srian orthu chun bheith i n-ann comhairle den chineál sin a fháil. Ní shílim go bhfuil rud ar bith sa Bhille a chuireann bac orthu dul i gcomhairle le daoine eile nó b'fhéidir coistí comhairleacha a bhunú. Níor mhaith liom go mbeadh rud ar bith le bac a chur orthu agus dá bhrí sin, sílim gur smaoineamh maith é agus tuigim go bhfuil an bord féin sásta tuairimí den chineál sin a scrúdú agus féachaint le leas a bhaint astu.

Luaigh sé chomh maith an laghdú a bhí ag teacht ar an nGaeltacht. Sílim gur luaigh an Seanadóir Murphy é sin chomh maith agus, ar ndóigh, tig linn uilig an t-eolas sin a fháil go bhfuil laghdú mór tagtha air. Is dócha go bhfuil sé le feiceáil níos mó i mo chontae féin ná i gcontae ar bith eile, áit a raibh Gaeltachtaí laidir dhá scór bliain o shin. Is beag díobh atá le feiceáil inniu. Is mór an trua é sin. Acht, tá pointe amháin a bhaineas leis agus sílim féin gur áit é seo a gcaithfidh an bord a naigne a dhíriú air, an áit a bhfuil an Ghaeilge go fóill, an áit ina bhfuil daoine in ann Gaeilge a labhairt go tréan, mar a déarfá, an áit ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge go láidir ach nach bhfuil sí in úsáid. Ba cheart díriú ar na háiteanna sin leis an méid Gaeilge atá iontu a choinneáil slán agus a choinneáil beo agus an meas atá ag teacht uirthi ansin a choisaint.

Ar ndóigh tá gá le poiblíocht agus go mór mhór sa saol atá inniu ann. Is cuma cén obair atá ar siúl, caithfear úsáid a bhaint as poiblíocht lena cur chun cinn agus táimíd ag plé na cúrsaí sin agus beimíd ag súil go mbeidh airgead curtha ar fáil le cuidiú leis an bpoiblíocht a bhéas ag teastáil leis na feachtais a bhéas ar siúl ag an mbord a láidriú agus a chur ar aghaidh.

Luaigh an Seanadóir Kitt ceist faoi oifigeach oideachais, nó education officer, a bheith faoi threoir nó faoi stiúrú na gcoistí gairm oideachais—go mba cheart a leithéidí sin a cheapadh. Arís is dóigh gurab shin rud go mbeidh an bord iad féin ann a scrúdú agus moltaí i ngeall air a chur ar aghaidh má shíleann siad go bhfuil fiúntas ar bith ag baint leis.

Shíl an Seanadóir McGlinchey go mba mhaith an rud é dá mbeadh na deontais £10 agus £20 le fáil ag Gaeilgeoirí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá rud amháin le rá agam faoin méid sin. Mar atá siad i láthair na huaire, bíonn neart achrainn fúthu agus dá mbeadh an scéim á reachtáil taobh amuigh de na Gaeltachtaí níl fhios agam faoí, 'sé díol an diabhail ar fad a bheadh ann é a láimhseáil. Níl fhios agam, mar adéarfá, an ceart drocmheas a chaitheamh ar an moladh—b'fhéidir gur cheart cluas a thabhart dó. Sin mar a fheicimse é, go mbeadh go leor deacrachtaí san ag iarraidh scéim a reachtáil taobh amuigh de na Gaeltachtaí, ach arís b'fhéidir gur cúramaí iad seo a dtig leis an mbord iad féin a scrúdú.

Labhair an Seanadóir Ó Conaire an chuid is mó i mBéarla, agus is maith liom go raibh cuid den díospóireacht i mBéarla mar beidh an bord féin ag díriú a n-aigne níos mó ar Bhéarlóirí ná muintir na Gaeltachta agus san díospóireacht seo—agus thárla sé seo sa Dáil chomh maith—tugadh le tuiscint dúinn na deacrachtaí atá ag daoine a d'fhoghlaim Gaeilge ach nach bhfuil sí anois a labhairt acu nó a bhfuil faillí déanta san Ghaeilge acu. Thug an Seanadóir Ó Conaire le tuiscint dúinn na deacrachtaí atá aige féin. Labhair an Seanadóir Jago ar an gcuma chéanna. Tá rud amháin atá á phlé againn i láthair na huaire maidir le daoine a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge agus atá ag iarraidh í a fhoghlaim—sin Baill an Oireachtais atá mé a rá. Bhí mé ag caint le—is dócha nach ceart dom a n-ainm a lua anseo—dream atá ag plé le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge agus tá siad sásta cúrsaí Gaeilge a chur ar bun anseo i dTeach Laighean do dhaoine atá fábharach don Ghaeilge nó atá ag iarraidh feabhas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge, agus le cúnamh Dé beidh sé sin socraithe againn sa téarma atá le teacht, sé sin tar éis saoire an tsamhraidh. Daoine ar bith go dteastaíonn uathu feabhas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge nó snas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge beidh fáilte rompu ag na ranganna sin. Cuirfear na ranganna ar aghaidh chomh maith ag am a bhéas áisiúil go gach duine agus tá mé ag súil go mbeidh cuid mhaith ag freastal orthu.

Labhair an Seanadóir Lanigan faoi féin. Dúirt sé go raibh an Ghaeilge caillte aige féin, ach ní aontaim ar fad leis. Thug sé an chuid is mó den méid adúirt sé as Gaeilge, agus arís sin deacracht amháin atá ann leis an nGaeilge. Deireann daoine nach bhfuil Gaeilge acu. Bhí an Seanadóir Ó Lanigan ag rá nach raibh Gaeilge aige ach thug sé le tuiscint dúinn sa gcaoi ar labhair sé anseo go raibh neart Gaeilge aige agus níor cheart dó náire a bheith ar í a labhairt in áit ar bith. Arís cruthaíonn sé rud amháin atá ráite ag cúpla duine anseo—nach bhfuilimid sásta tabhairt faoin nGaeilge agus an méid dí atá againn a labhairt chomh minic agus is féidir linn.

Mhol an Seanadóir Donnelly na scoileanna lán-Ghaelacha agus an obair atá ar siúl acu. Arís tá an rud sin anshuimiúil agus is rud é a thugann misneach dúinn, mar go dtáinig gluaiseacht na scoileanna lán-Ghaelacha ó na daoine iad féin gan brú ar bith ó dhuine ar bith. Sin rud a theastaíonn uainn a fheiceáil, go mbeadh na daoine iad féin sásta scoil lán-Ghaelach a chur ar bun agus Gaeilge a thabhairt dá gcuid páistí gan brú ar bith a theacht orthu ón Stát nó ó áit ar bith eile.

Bhí óráid an shuimiúil ón Seanadóir Mulcahy faoi pholasaí maidir le Gaeilge a chur chun cinn agus faoi na rudaí is gá le teanga a bhrú ar aghaidh. Níl fúm ag an bpointe seo mórán tagairt a dhéanamh dóibh ach amháin go dtuigimíd ar fad an méid oibre atá déanta aige leis na blianta maidir le cúrsaí teanga a chur ar aghaidh, agus sé an trua nach dtig leis féin agus an Seanadóir Whitaker leanúint ar aghaidh mar bhaill den bhord, ach taimid cinnte do rud amháin, go mbeidh siad linn le comhairle agus cuidiú a thabhairt don bhord agus is breá an rud é sin.

Bhí rud amháin a luaigh an Seanadóir Mulcahy. Luaigh sé liom cheana é agus bhí beagáinín cainte againn faoi. Bhí sé ag caint faoin bhfocal "beartas" agus polasaí. Is fíor nach bhfuil an focal "beartas" i bhFoclóir Uí Dhuinnín ach tá sé i bhFoclóir de Bhaldraithe. Sé "beartas" an chéad fhocal Gaeilge a tugtar ar "policy" agus san leagan Gaeilge de na Conraithe Eorpacha tá an focal "comhbheartas" coitianta do "common policy". Tá an focal "beartas" bunaithe ar an bhfocal "beart" a bhfuil an chiall "plan" mar cheann de na mínithe air i bhFoclóir Uí Dhuinnín. Tá focail ghaolmhara dó san bhfoclóir céanna, mar shampla, "beartach", resourceful i mBéarla; "beartaidhe", a planner, a thinker; "beartúghadha", judging, thinking, planning i mBéarla. Tuigimíd mar sin gur focal fiúntach dúchasúil an focal sin agus nach bhfuil sé ina chramh spairn. Níl fhios agam ar cheart dúinn a bheith ag troid faoi rudaí mar seo. Is rud beag é agus sílim gur cheart dúinn é a fhágáil mar atá sé, nach cuireann sé isteach ar an mBille ar bhealach ar bith.

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh le chuile dhuine a thóg páirt san díospóireacht seo agus tá fhios againn uilig go bhfuil obair mhór, thábhachtach le déanamh ag an mbord seo agus gur gá go mbeidh cuidiú le fáil acu ó na rannóga Stáit ar fad, agus go mór mhór ón ghnáphobal. Mar is eol dúinn, mura mbeidhmid in ann gnáthphobal na tíre a mhealladh agus a thabhairt linn, ní bheidh sé ar ár gcumas mórán dul ar aghaidh a dhéanamh i dtaobh an Ghaeilge a neartú agus a chur chun cinn. Sin an obair is mó a bheidh le déanamh ag an mbord—cur ina luí ar an bpobal gur fiú an Ghaeilge a shlánú agus a chur chun cinn, agus guímid rath Dé ar an méid atá le déanamh acu.

Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an cheist.

Question put and agreed to.

An chéad Chéim eile?

Ní hamhlaidh go dteastaíonn uaim moill a chur ar an mBille nó cur as don Aire, ach tá sé beartaithe agamsa roinnt leasaithe a chur os comhair an tSeanaid agus níl na leasaithe réidh agam i láthair na huaire. Dhá bhrí sin, bheínn buíoch don Aire dá mbeadh sé sásta an chéad Chéim eile a chur ar athló go ceann seachtaine.

Sílim go raibh maor i dteangmháil leis an Seanadóir Murphy níos túisce sa lá ar an gceist seo agus gur thairig sé dó go gcuirfí an Teach ar ceal, nó an seisiún seo ar ceal, ar feadh uaire le deis a thabhairt don Seanadóir Murphy a chuid leasaithe a chur os ár gcomhair agus ansin go leanfaí ar aghaidh leis an gcéad Chéim eile den Bhille. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil an tSeanadóir chun glacadh leis sin, ach is eol dom gur tugadh an tairiscint sin dó ar maidin nó roimh meán lae.

Bhí sé ar intinn agam an Bille a chur ar aghaidh ar fad inniu, ach ó thárla sé nach raibh conspóid ar bith sa Teach seo maidir leis an mBille féin agus nár mhaith liom go mbeadh, sílim nach mbeadh ann ach cothram na Féinne deis a thabhairt do Sheanadóir ar bith a bhfuil sé ar intinn aige leasaithe a chur os comhair an tSeanaid, agus cé gur mhaith liom an Bille ar fad a fháil inniu, tá mise sásta fanacht seachtain eile le deis a thabhairt na leasaithe sin a chur isteach.

Tá áthas orm faoi ráiteas an Aire mar níor mhaith liom go mbeadh aon chonspóid nó aon chur in aghaidh a chéile ag taobh ar bith den Teach ar an mBille seo.

Ordaoídh Céim an Choiste don Chéadaoin, 21 Meitheamh 1978.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 21 June 1978.
Top
Share