Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1979

Vol. 92 No. 2

Private Business. - Independent Local Radio: Motion.

Miss Harney

I move:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the decision of the Government to establish independent local radio.

I would like at the outset to thank the Leader of the House for giving us an opportunity at such an early stage to discuss this very important subject. I was surprised but delighted that only four short weeks after tabling the motion and only six weeks after the Taoiseach made the statement we have an opportunity in this House of discussing this vital subject which affects all our lives. I would like to thank the Minister of State for coming here this evening and giving of his time to a subject about which I know he and his Department are very much concerned. I believe that this debate in Seanad Éireann on the new legislation the Government will be drafting will give us; perhaps for the first time ever, an input into Government legislation. For too long this Chamber has been merely a rubber stamp. It has been nothing more than a glorified debating society. I welcome the opportunity, in advance of the Government's legislation, of debating this vital topic which affects the whole future of our society.

Six weeks ago the Taoiseach announced the Government's intention to establish an independent local radio authority for the purposes of granting licences to local radio stations. I would like to deal with this motion by first reviewing the history of broadcasting in Ireland and then outlining why I think it is so vital and necessary now that we should have independent local radio. The broadcasting laws in this country as constituted at present allow the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to grant licences for legal broadcasting within this State. To date Radio Telefís Éireann are the only authority who have been granted a licence to broadcast, and no provision whatsoever has been made for any independent local broadcasting or for amateur radio enthusiasts. We cannot doubt that our society is continually evolving and changing, and the Ireland of the 1970s is very much different from the Ireland of 1926 when our current broadcasting legislation was implemented. Our changing lifestyle in Ireland must, I believe, be reflected in all our laws but particularly in our broadcasting laws.

I firmly believe that broadcasting plays a vital role in transmitting social attitudes and values. It was changing social attitudes and changing social lifestyles which brought about the increasing pressure from the public for a more varied from of broadcasting in this country. Agitation in the sixties led to the offshore pirate radio phenomenon, and in 1966 the British Government recognised this and extended their broadcasting laws and established independent local radio throughout the United Kingdom. At the same time in the United Kingdom the Government-sponsored BBC were encouraged to diversify their service in order to accommodate the growing number of young people who wanted a system and a service that was more flexible and more adaptable.

It is, I believe, generally accepted in most European countries that the form of broadcasting of the thirties, forties and fifties is outmoded and not at all in keeping with today's fast moving society. It was thus inevitable that the clamour overseas for diversification and modernisation of the airwaves should find its way into this country. With the fastest growing and youngest population in Europe, the RTE Authority, who are the only authority legally authorised to broadcast in this country, should have recognised the legitimate demands of young people for an independent broadcasting service tailored to their needs and the needs of the seventies, rather than exclusively to an older and more conservative generation. It is precisely the failure of RTE to diversify their broadcasting, to up-date their presentation and to introduce more creative and imaginative programming, that has resulted in people switching to English and other foreign channels. Indeed it is surprising that the pirate radio stations did not get off the ground much earlier. The question must surely now be asked: would RTE have put forward their recent proposals for the expansion of broadcasting if they had not recognised the success of the illegal pirate radio stations?

While advancing the cause of independent local radio in this country, I must acknowledge the valuable contribution which the illegal pirate radio stations have made in opening up an important debate on the future of broadcasting in Ireland, a subject that has received scant attention to date from all our professional broadcasters. Even the most idealistic and enthusiastic operators must accept that no Government in any democratic State can allow such flagrant abuse of the law. No cause, no matter what it is, must have our laws flouted in its interests.

Here I wish to refute the accusations frequently made about the Government's proposals to deal with illegal broadcasting as outlined in the Bill. Before the Leas-Chathaoirleach rules me out of order, let me say that I will not refer to it because it has not yet been discussed but it has been published by the Government. Some people have said that it is in some way heavy handed, using the big stick on the illegal pirate radio stations. Proponents of the idea of private broadcasting or, as they would call it, independent broadcasting have suggested that the proposed legislation is far more severe than that introduced by other Governments when they have been forced to deal with similar situations. As I mentioned at the outset, the pirate radio phenomenon of the sixties centred mainly on offshore radio stations and it was international covenants which were being breached rather than the law of the land. Consequently a type of legislation similar to that outlined in the Government's recent proposals was not necessary and would have had little or no effect. Indeed, several offshore radio stations still exist to this day.

Here in Ireland the Government are faced with a different situation. The present laws are not strong enough to act as a deterrent to unlicensed radio operators, and hence new proposals were vital. Everybody concerned about the future of radio in Ireland must welcome the Taoiseach's announcement of the Government's intention to establish an independent local radio authority which will set about the orderly distribution of the airwaves allocated to us by the Geneva Convention in 1975. There can be no doubt that our Government are fully committed to the expansion of the whole broadcasting network in this country. With the extra frequencies available to us, it should be possible for the proposed independent local radio authority to consider applications, not only from business consortiums, but more importantly from groupings and organisations that are strongly identified with local communities.

In our party's local election manifesto, launched yesterday, we committed ourselves to encourage the establishment of approved community councils under existing legislative provisions, because we believe that strengthened local community councils will form a sound basis for the success of the Government's proposals for local broadcasting. It is envisaged that the independent local broadcasting authority will lease broadcasting equipment to local interests, subject to certain provisions governing standards and advertisements. Nobody must be under any illusions. Local radio does not and must not mean a control of the airwaves by big business who are essentially interested only in money and profits. The Government will, I hope, ensure that local expression in the social, cultural, educational and religious fields will have full access to local broadcasting service.

The main criticism which I would like to make of our existing network is that it is too Dublin based and in its musical content, particularly in relation to pop music, it has not acted in the best interests of Irish singers, musicians or recording companies. In this regard I am very much in favour of legislation similar to that which existed in Canada which would force RTE to use a minimum of 50 per cent home-produced material in their programme output. Apart from enhancing our culture and traditions, more home-produced programmes would greatly improve our economic circumstances. To put my support for the encouragement of the Irish music industry into its perspective, one would do well to remember that the internationally famous Swedish pop group, Abba, generated more income for Sweden last year as a result of their earnings both at home and abroad than the country's major car manufacturer, Volvo. Surely this single statistic should encourage Government agencies such as RTE to adopt a more patriotic attitude than they appear to be doing.

Our national network, RTE, have a duty to encourage all things Irish, but this does not suggest that we should isolate ourselves from all that is happening in the outside world. The indecent haste of some programme producers and presenters in our national station to lavishly praise and encourage all the worst in foreign material—and I am not just referring to things of a musical nature—and to denigrate sometimes all that is best in Irish culture is a situation that the majority of people in this country will not tolerate much longer. There can be no doubt that it is partly what I would call a "west British" attitude on the part of some people in RTE that has created the demand in this country for a locally based radio service for the people, by the people and of the people. Local radio, if properly structured, will revolutionise society in much the same way as did the introduction of television.

For far too long Irish broadcasting has been inaccessible to the ordinary man in the street. The sight of a mobile radio studio in the streets of even some of our more sophisticated towns and cities creates almost as much local comment as did the first motor car 70 years ago. Consequently, people's attitudes to broadcasting are treated with far too much reverence. We are no longer a peasant population incapable of giving free expression to our creativity. Ireland has a proud tradition of nuturing its community identity. Despite the difficulties, the provincial press in Ireland was never in a healthier state, which is ample proof that local communities relate to what is happening within their parish, town or county.

Our policy in Fianna Fáil is geared towards further strengthening this identity by local access to all the expertise and technical equipment. The advent of an independent local radio authority must not be a licence to print money, as has been suggested in certain quarters. I would foresee Government finance being given to those areas of the country where otherwise a commercially-based station would not be economically feasible. It is imperative that the provincial press, which is an integral part of our local structures, should be encouraged to participate in this exciting new development. Government policy will, I hope, be directed towards this end. If there is a successful marriage of the two areas of media expression, broadcasting and the printed word, then the future of communications in this country will be well safeguarded.

We as legislators in Seanad Éireann have a responsibility, indeed a duty, to ensure that any proposals in relation to the development of broadcasting are soundly based and have the full support of our people. I have sympathy for those areas in our country, places like Dublin, Cork and Sligo, where community-based radio services, despite their illegality, have been operating for the past two years and have been providing a valuable forum for local expression, particularly for our young people. They now face the prospect of a winter without that local station. One must admit that with certain notable exceptions the illegal operators on the whole have provided a valuable community service, mostly without any profit motive other than to fill what they saw as a serious deficiency in the existing Irish broadcasting set-up. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect that there should be some disquiet among local communities if the Government by their actions deprive them of the stations they have become used to for so long.

I strongly suggest to the Minister that in drafting his new legislation he should ensure as far as possible that no vacuum is created between the passing of the Bill outlawing the current illegal stations and the actual start of transmission of the independent local broadcasting stations. It is my contention that the illegal radio operators have regained a large proportion of the listening audiences lost to foreign stations over the years because their style and their presentation are more in keeping with the younger generation.

I am pleased to note that since the Minister sanctioned a second national channel RTE have quickly come to terms with the challenge that now faces them. From the information to hand relating to RTE 2, it would appear that young people will find little to complain about and much to praise when the new station goes on the air on 31 May. I would like to take this opportunity to wish them well in their endeavours and I hope that our young people will give their full support to the station and in so doing the Irish music industry and our society, which hopefully will be the main beneficiary of this broadcasting development, will be greatly enhanced. I do not accept that the establishment of independent local radio alongside the current national radio and television network will necessarily mean a conflict of interests. The two can very much complement each other. But even if there is conflict of interests, competition will be good and it will provide a more efficient and effective broadcasting service than we have had up to now.

Independent local radio greatly enhances local communities. It gives the average people on the street a sense of identity. It gives them some access to broadcasting. Local problems get an airing. Local business people do well and they get an opportunity to compete on equal terms with their national counterparts. I believe that local radio will play an important part in our country in the future.

Today's debate, to which I hope there will be many contributions, will help the Government in drawing up their legislation and will allow us as legislators to have some responsibility for and some input into the type of broadcasting service we will have in the years to come. Broadcasting plays a vital role in transmitting social attitudes and values. Our young people want a different network from what they have had in the past. They do not want to have to go back to listening to Radio Luxembourg, Radio Caroline, or Radio 4. They want their own national network and they are entitled to it. I hope it will not be long before our Government bring in the necessary legislation. I have great pleasure in proposing this motion and welcoming the Taoiseach's announcement that he and his Government will be establishing an independent local radio authority in this country.

Mr. Herbert

I formally second this motion and reserve the right to speak later.

Mrs. Hussey

I very much welcome this motion despite, as mentioned earlier, a lack of communication as to when exactly it would be taken. I have not had much opportunity to prepare for this debate but I will not make one of the 19 ready-made speeches referred to earlier.

We must not think that this problem is peculiar to Ireland. Developments in local radio and pirate and commercial radio have taken place on a large scale in western Europe in the past ten years. In fact, there is telecommunications revolution in train at the moment and Ireland is feeling some of the waves of that revolution. The Council of Europe brought out a major document on the 16 November 1978 on the whole question of local radio and independent broadcasting in that context. This telecommunications revolution has enormous bearing on the whole governing of society and Senator Harney is rightly concerned that there should be control in this area. It is also important for us to remember that the technical questions cannot be separated from policy questions when it comes to the proliferation of radio stations. This is obviously one of the major causes of the problem relating to illegal broadcasting. It is a proper matter for politicians and for this House to be concerned with.

The emergence of local radio, which has taken place some 50 years after the first development of broadcasting in western Europe, has taken many different forms in many different countries. In Britain there are what might be called carefully planned establishment stations and at the other end of the spectrum there are the blatantly commercial and in many cases highly politicised unplanned illegal operations which cause chaos in Italy—with which they are trying to deal at the moment—and the underground self-styled "free" stations in France.

It is worth our while to look briefly at the history of this problem in Britain, our nearest neighbour and a country which has had enormous influence on this country in terms of broadcasting because we have been extremely open to the whole British communications media. The first pirate ship commenced its operations off the Essex coast on Easter Saturday, 1964, which seems a long time ago to young people. It does not seem long ago to me and I remember it quite distinctly. The only criterion of that pirate station and of the ones that followed it was to find a medium channel which would be sufficiently clear to ensure that the audience did not get interference from other broadcasters. That was the only criterion they used in deciding on what frequency they would operate. Pirate services grew very rapidly all round the coast of Britain. There was a strong technical case against them because they were free from any obligations in their use of the broadcasting spectrum and they caused skywave interference in other countries because they usurped the legitimate frequency assignments of other countries. They also interfered greatly with a lot of BBC broadcasting because they often picked a frequency near a BBC station hoping that listeners would be trapped into catching and staying with the illegal stations. However, in the later sixties there was a lot of concerted legislation in Europe, because these stations had grown up, off other coast areas in Europe as well. The Maritime Offences Act of 1967 in Britain was most effective in clamping down on the pirate ships. A significant fact had emerged during the years of those pirate radio stations. That was that they had created a new demand for a particular kind of a popular market and they had also created a market for advertising. The demand which they highlighted over those years influenced the future development of UK broadcasting.

In 1970 Radio I first appeared with its non-stop popular variety music and there was a whole reorganisation of the BBC stations. By 1971 Britain had through the BBC proliferated VHF local radio stations around the country to the extent that 74 per cent of the population had receptions of VHF radio. The Independent Broadcasting Authority were then set up, coming out of the Independent Television Authority, following a Government White Paper in Britain which was called "An Alternative Service of Radio Broadcasting". By 1976, 19 stations were operating on the IBA local network. In April 1976 there was a pause in this because of the economic situation and because of the Anann committee's report on broadcasting which was then impending.

From July 1978, local radio had another boost and has been expanding very much—18 new stations have been authorised. The principle of independent local broadcasting has really taken off in Britain, and owes a great deal in the first instance to the impetus given by the illegal pirate ships anchored all around the coast of Britain.

The British coped, in an orderly way, with the kind of development we are now faced with as opposed unfortunately to the Italian experience, which is chaos and disorder. In between Italy and Britain there is a spectrum of countries across Europe coping more or less successfully with the problem.

Regarding the Irish situation, I am very glad that Senator Harney mentioned her worry about the vacuum that might exist between setting up the local independent radio authority and the bringing into force of the Bill setting out offences for illegal broadcasting. A gap of several months would be enough to finish off many of the independent illegal stations that exist at the moment. That would be an extremely bad and most undesirable development. I welcome Senator Harney's concern and hope it will be echoed by the Government and that this will not be allowed to happen. I would like the two pieces of legislation to come before us simultaneously.

I would not decry the kind of broadcasting which has been enjoyed by young and not so young people from the independent stations. People of all ages automatically tune in to stations which have very little talk and continuous music interspersed by occasional gossip and news headlines. It seems to answer a need that many people have.

There is a very good feature of some independent stations which we should remember. Although there are not enough, the odd programme has been put together and organised by groups who were not NUJ members but ordinary people. Despite advice to the contrary I took part in a few successful programmes in which one of the radio stations offered one hour a week to the Women's Political Association, to put out a programme for women, by women and about women. It aroused a great deal of interest. That kind of thing is extremely valuable, and in any new local broadcasting system there must be a place for this kind of venture. I hope the Irish area council of the NUJ will be very aware of this need. The NUJ issued a statement on 10 April, following publication of the Bill setting out offences, which seemed to rather pre-empt people's ideas about local groups, amateur people, organising their own radio programmes. I hope I am taking the wrong interpretation out of the NUJ statement, because that kind of union activity would be most reprehensible in any new local broadcasting arrangement.

I welcome the opportunity for us to discuss this question and I wish the whole future of local broadcasting in this country well.

Mr. Brennan

The case for local radio is now undisputed. The apparent popularity of the pirate stations and the increase in population point to the need for more and not less local radio. The course we are to take is quite apparent.

The pirates have flourished because they filled a need RTE had overlooked for many years. The advent of local radio does not necessarily mean the jack-boot for the pirates, provided that they conform to certain standards and can in some way become legitimate. There is no compelling reason why a number of people involved in providing the present service would not be in a position to apply to the new authority to have their applications cooly and calmly considered.

The dangers of the pirate stations have been listed. Apart from the obvious ones, the possibility of cluttering up the airways and imperilling air and sea rescue must be foremost in our minds at all times. The crucial thing about local radio is that it be controlled local radio. Licences should be issued to groups of people to form local stations on the strict understanding that the necessary standards are adhered to and that the appropriate amount of coverage is given to news and current affairs items.

On RTE 1 the main news goes out at 9 o'clock and there is always something fairly light on RTE 2 with the result that one could spend the whole night watching RTE 1 and RTE 2 without ever looking at a current affairs programme or a news programme. It should not be made that simple for the nation to avoid the heavier material. Frankly, I feel that RTE 1 and RTE 2 should transmit the news simultaneously.

The real answer to the pirates is not necessarily to crush them but to provide legitimacy for the services which they have been offering for some time, apparently quite successfully, if one is to judge by the huge response to the service.

Monopolies carry their own risk, and for that reason also I welcome the recent announcement. The choice of additional listening with an independent new authority is an exciting step forward in Irish broadcasting and I look forward to it flourishing.

The case for local radio is worth looking at briefly. Local radio will be perhaps more important over the next 20 years than national radio because of the very intimate service which it provides for the much harassed general public. If one is to consider, for example, the traffic reports, local weather reports and items of this sort, properly controlled, professionally organised and managed local radio, in the interests of the local community should and will become the eyes and consciences of the community, because it will have its roots in that community and not in a broadly spread basis.

Local radio will provide an alternative, and the crucial thing about providing an alternative is, who controls the alternative. We have a mixed economy, and the natural follow-on from that is that we in some way mix our services also. The Taoiseach has perhaps found the right mix, in announcing an independent authority allowing for the proper controlled organised growth of responsible local radio. In that way radio will be subject to a vote of confidence every hour, because if the public do not like what is being broadcast or feel that they are not getting the services that they demand, they have the option to switch to some other channel. That vote of confidence is the necessary pressure on the broadcasters to provide the right kind of service.

The advent of local radio will not debase radio standards. On the contrary it should improve standards, because the public will be very demanding. I hope that the new authority will insist on proper standards, proper professionalism, and will lay down in great detail exactly what this nation requires from its broadcasters. I place a lot of hope and trust in this forthcoming Bill, that it will provide the necessary umbrella to allow the necessary flourishing of local radio. Others say that it somehow leads to over-popular type programmes, and that it leads to the common denominator. I do not subscribe to that theory. This change was coming about anyway over the years. The increased number of people who have television sets, radio sets, cassettes and so on, and also the huge change in our population structure with an emphasis on the younger people now, would have led in any case, even if we had only one channel, to that channel producing more popular types of programmes. In producing popular type programmes it is up to the State, to the independent broadcasting authority and to RTE to ensure that the right mix is achieved on the various channels, and not a constant stream of pure pop music. That is very important.

Another advantage in local radio is the outlet for Irish talent. We have some enormous talent here and everybody, or as many people as possible, should have available to them at any time an alternative type of employment. They should be able to go to another company, or to another office, and offer their services to that company. Choice of employment is a basic right and I have some hopes in that regard.

RTE Radio 2 has been announced, and it will apparently deal with the lighter programmes. That is a welcome development because there is a clear demand there for those type of programmes. What it is not geared to do is to cater for the pure local information and local needs. That is why parallel to RTE Radio 2 which I hope will do a good job we need this local service.

Some people feel that local radio may become too commercial and the pressures on it may be very commercial. We could all be reminded that RTE is not just a public service, but is also commercial to a certain extent. I do not see why properly controlled organised professional local radio could not be both commercial and public service at the same time. We should be very careful in the choice of groups of people, in the rules we lay down in regard to these licences. Broadcasters are like politicians to a certain extent. While broadcasters go for the biggest number of listeners, and politicians for the biggest number of voters, both broadcaster and politician have an added overall responsibility to lead, to show the way forward. That is a responsibility that we should bear very much in the front of our minds when drafting the legislation.

Local radio would not be a strain on the national purse. That is an important consideration, given the great demands there are on the limited finances available to the State. The capital cost of a small properly run station would be in the region of half a million pounds. That capital cost would not have to be borne by the State. I take it that there would be no fees involved, and that advertising would be the main source of revenue. The running costs would be met on a commercial basis, and at the end of the day if there was any surplus out of running such a station, then of course the Government have recourse to taxation in ensuring that the State gets its share of the revenue.

In the organisation and running of these local stations, licences should not be issued just sine die as it were. Licences should be issued for a prescribed period subject to the most intense review after a period of not longer than perhaps a few years. The professionalism, the dedication and the motivation of Irish broadcasters, some of whom we are extremely proud of, will, in the end, determine the success of local radio.

Mr. Keating

I disagree with all of the previous speakers. The use of the word "independent" in the motion is already tendentions, because hopefully existing broadcasting is already independent. The real issue is not independence but control; the choice of control by the public, which is what I desire—public service broadcasting—or by those who got into it for money. I disagree fundamentally with Senator Brennan that those things are compatible. Where we have seen the ultimate control of money, we have seen the sort of degradation that one gets on American television or in Italian commercial broadcasting, both of them obscene and debasing for the populations that have the misfortune to be subjected to them.

I find a difficulty in dealing with this subject because it excites me so much and I had so little time to prepare. I will try to stake out the ground as I see it. Some of the contributions suggested that the issues are new and that RTE have in some way or other been evading them. The issues are as old as the technological revolution, and that has been going on now for decades. RTE do what they are permitted to do. A whole series of Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs and a whole series of Governments are responsible for the vacuum which produced the pirates and it is buck passing and RTE thumping to suggest that it is their fault that they did not do things that they were not permitted to do or financed to do or given the green light to do.

Need and technology have made local broadcasting inevitable. We have a consensus here on one thing, which is that local radio is extremely important and long overdue. Nobody quarrels with that. Why it is important is interesting. We see the process of the world getting bigger and bigger and the process of decisions retreating out of ordinary communities. Cities and buildings are getting to an inhuman size and decision processes are retreating further and further into bureaucracies and are not even visible to, let alone controllable by ordinary people. Therefore, there is an enormous need for a stronger community on a scale that we can encompass in our minds and in our hearts. There is a need for buildings of a reasonable size, journeys to work of a reasonable distance, pollution at a reasonable level and the possibility of knowing the person who serves one in a shop. In the binding together of that sort of community in which human beings can develop, which is the defence that people now seek so passionately against the dehumanisation of the world, all the media play an important part, and none more important than radio. I say radio specifically and not television because radio is cheap, local, intimate and human because of the technological revolution. We need not spend more time talking about the need because in the evolution of our society the need is obvious.

A transistor now can be made small enough to go into a watch. It has total portability. The technological revolution has produced tiny, cheap portable receivers that could even be much cheaper if we had not the distortion of communications by the commercial interests. We can solve a transmitting problem for a small community now because they are rich enough to carry a small transmitter and people are rich enough to carry receivers. We boobed by not promoting VHF more, but we need not go into technicalities.

When we talk of local radio we must not see this question by itself. Neither must we see a conflict between local and national radio, or between radio and television, because each ought to be seen as complementary. They ought to be planned together and not planned piecemeal. National television, national radio and local radio all fit into a continuation of broadcasting. One might add to that, the citizen band, things that are not currently in Ireland but which are burgeoning in another part of the world, most notably in the United States. One might add also the burgeoning of short-wave reception from all over the world with receivers on which one can dial almost any station in the world. One might add to that the proliferation of access to teaching machines, the whole network of information through television monitoring and so on. We must not look at local radio by itself, we must not look at it as new or surprising. We must look on the current defects as the fault of the decision takers and not of those who carry out the decisions, like the people in RTE. How much time have I left, a Leas-Chathaoirleach?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has nine minutes left.

Mr. Keating

We are not arguing about the need for local radio, the current defects, or the reasons why there are defects. That in a sense is in the past. We have seen the pirates grow in response to inadequacy, defective decision making and defective funding. The pirates have done some good broadcasting and do a useful thing. I deplore any unplanned and illegal development, but they have, by and large, served us reasonably well.

We have not seen the Bill and we are not party to the inner councils of the Government or of the Fianna Fáil Party so one can only take the inferences from remarks that are dropped. The Bill in regard to the extinction of the pirate radios has been circulated, but the Bill in regard to the establishment of the authority to control local radio has not been circulated.

Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick)

(Dublin South-Central): It has not been circulated.

Mr. Keating

It has not, but the Bill to extinguish the pirates has been published. There are two Bills in question. Fundamentally, in regard to communications, the auction in debasement is easy and one sees it in many countries, on television in the United States, in the popular radio in Italy, and nearer to home in the British popular press, which seems an obscene and degrading phenomenon. The British popular press have done a vast disservice to that country, already in difficulties for other reasons, in debasing, stupifying and "pornagraphying" people, in the mindless anti-debate of important issues, in the trivialisation and chauvinisation of every issue. It is exceedingly easy to have an auction in debasement. It is exceedingly difficult while fighting for audiences, especially where money is involved, to maintain standards. The whole task is to give the localness, the intimacy, the humaness, the smallness of scale, the directness that is essential in radio, within a form of control which avoids a profit rat race and the debasing of standards.

We are taking a British television pattern in this if we say we will set up an independent authority and will get nice people with social standing. They will serve on an authority and will get their extras, their good lunches and ego stroking and they will love to be on it. Then the civil servants will write nice guidelines saying they must have so much current affairs, so much news, that there is a level of obscenity below which they may not go and that there are certain words that are unutterable. Then we say, "Now we are open to tender, now will whoever is best qualified come and apply for a licence to print the money?" The best qualified people are doing it already. Who else can put up a reasonable case that they are sufficiently in command of the techniques to provide good local broadcasting, except people who have current experience? But if the objective is money, if it is to be financed out of its own profits and that was certainly implicit in what Senator Brennan said, then the battle for audiences is on. Then the battle for advertising revenue is on.

Then the task of the programme makers is to grapple for audience and to read the small print of the restrictive rules with an eye to evading those restrictive rules in this auction of debasement I am referring to, and then the fine sentiments, with which I agree, which their actions would have the effect of promulgating, about Irish music, Irish traditions, Irish standards and Irish culture that were uttered both by Senators Harney and Brennan would fly out the window and become meaningless. I agree with their aspirations but it seems to me that what they propose to do will have the opposite effect.

If what is required is an authority that is separate from RTE, that is fine, but RTE and Radio Éireann served this country very well. If what is required is the most intimate connection with local communities, and that means the trade unions and the IFA branches, the parent-teacher associations and lots of people other than those who could offer a service for money, it cannot be too intimate and too open and too democratic in my view. But if you offer an authority a set of guidelines and tell them that if they apply for permission to broadcast the permission will be granted and then if those people who put up the best case and look most qualified are chosen, and if the ultimate objective then is a fundamental break—and do not underestimate how fundamental it is—and make it commercial broadcasting, then there will be no end to the debasement which will be ultimately produced, to the detriment of those people who, as we have heard from Fianna Fáil Senators today, wish the opposite or purport to wish the opposite.

I agree with the need for local radio, but the choice between fundamental radio, public service radio and commercial radio is absolutely fundamental. You cannot mix them. In the world entertainment industry we know all the corruption that goes into the pop music scene, all the heavy money there is behind the promotion of records and so on. There were the poor misfortunate punk rockers who were so ruthlessly exploited, indeed to their deaths physically in some cases. That is part of the pop music scene. But the pop music scene has been vastly better in the past 15 years than it was previously. In my view, the contents, the attitudes, the lyrics in much of the popular music now is vastly for the good of society but we have no guarantee that it will remain so. That is why we must have genuine public service broadcasting, intimate, local-democratically controlled and kept away from commercial interests. Otherwise the option and degradation will produce a society which none of us, even the protagonists of the Government's measures, would wish for.

Mr. Mulcahy

It was extremely interesting to listen to Senator Keating who had a distinguished record in broadcasting. At the same time I think we should all recognise that this country, like it or not, is a small island on the edge of Europe and saturated by the communication emissions of other countries, and has been for years. I suppose as legislators we at times tend to feel that we can legislate a level of capacity to instil right from wrong into people, that we can legislate for their entertainment and that we can legislate for everything connected with their work. At times we are inclined to forget that "educate" might be a more important verb and that our country is now, through a developing educational system, reaching a point where the high percentage of young people that we have will make their own decisions from the level of appreciation they have of life around them. That comes from the educational system and whatever the environment offers them.

Therefore, it seems to me that this measure the Government intend to introduce in relation to independent broadcasting is lagging way behind the demand. Others have said a need exists, but it is lagging way behind. We are not talking about a revolution. There are probably only a few of us in the Oireachtas who have had the privilege of being members of the RTE Authority. I was a member of that Authority for a couple of years, and to think that the members of the RTE Authority come for their lunches and for their ego stroking, as the Senator said, is really not recognising the reality. Certainly when I was a member of the authority I was advocating changes of the kind that we now are saying are being brought about by revolutions. In the mid-fifties it was clear that this need existed. There are some young people listening to pop tunes now who were not even born then. The need was clear but as is the case in so many other spheres this country is too slow. We talk about the response to the pirates but we should have been way ahead of them in relation to this scene. In other countries like America local radio existed in a positive way, in a public service way as well as in the pop tune sense. There was this continuous cacophony of drum beat that the young people of today seem to want. If they want it they are entitled to have it. They will make up their own minds in time. We cannot just stuff public service programmes down their throats if they do not want them. We will pass on, and there are a lot of people pushing up daisies in Glasnevin who thought that they could not be done without in relation to the public service. We should endeavour to help them make the best of it, to do something positive about it, to produce programmes that are exciting. I have great trust in the young people of this country. What they have done with traditional Irish music, for instance, is an example of what they can do. It is not merely a question of records and so on. They have, through their interest in Irish music, generated new sounds. They have given it life. They have gone from one country to another and mixed one tradition with another. They think positively. We are always thinking about pornography, about looking after people, about avoiding the debasing of the country. Have we no trust in people? If there is anything that makes me welcome this measure it is that it will rid us of the RTE monopoly, of a small group of people believing that they could provide for Ireland the kind of thinking that was needed in broadcasting, that they would condition in the sense of entertain, inform and educate, that they had the insight that was required to know what people wanted. That thinking was too inbred for too long. I welcome this first step, this first break. What concerned me always in that regard, for instance, was that there was one group in this country, who almost always determined what was news, not that the newspapers did not have an effect on that. It was obviously the right headline and some of our newspapers are good at that. The right headline creates news, it has been used a couple of times recently in very telling ways but there is one group who decide what the news is at 7.30 in the morning and no other group. They sit at their desks in RTE and make that decision. That to me is dangerous. It is a situation that we have had for a long time.

One instance I will give of that was when the Director General of RTE made the statement about him not being in favour of alternative systems of commercial broadcasting. That statement got headlines in the news. When I said there was an alternative approach that should be adopted my statement did not even reach the news. Some might say that I was just another politician making a statement, but I was an ex-member of the RTE authority and the person who set up the television network in this country. That, to me, is just an example of the sort of thing I am talking about, and I welcome, therefore, an alternative news system in broadcasting and that, I would hope, would come out of the independent radio system.

It is not that we have a revolution in broadcasting. We are having a revolution in communications. Senator Keating touched on this. Technology is providing ways of giving instant access to information. Some of this information can be entertaining or informative in the sense of traditional broadcasting but it will be also available through the television monitor in terms of news, in terms of financial reports, in terms of analysis of markets, in terms of what is going on in other countries. This revolution is upon us. Also through satellite broadcasting it may very well be in the next ten years that we may not be able to cope with all the emissions from other countries with which we will be bombarded. We will just have to use an educated population to make an educated choice of what they will look at or listen to.

That cultural lag that I mentioned before in this House is particularly evident in broadcasting policy. I advocated in the mid-sixties when I was on the authority that we should use a high power medium-wave broadcasting unit to transmit to London, Manchester, Northern Europe, as a means of propagating Irish products, Irish interests, Irish information, Irish philosophy. The idea was even supported at the time by a committee set up by the Communications Centre who thought it might be useful in terms of the propagation of more Christian ideals, but this did not get through the system. Senator Keating said that you cannot blame RTE for this, that you must blame the decision-makers above RTE. I presume by that that one must blame the Government. But if there had been at that stage an alternative to RTE the natural competition which would have existed would have thrown up the need and the Government would have seen the dilemma identified and presented in a way that might have then encouraged them to move in a different direction. I should hope that in the future the Minister might move that way. It appeared in the press that a group here were interested in long-wave broadcasting from this country to northern Europe but I am not advocating that. Certain personalities in this country and also members of RTE said that this was a licence to print money. I am not talking about that. I am talking about something which I advocated ten years earlier and which is published and written in article form as well as being published in the report of the Broadcasting Review Committee which, interestingly enough, recommended that there should be different broadcasting units operating under the umbrella of a policy body. If that recommendation has been accepted we might have moved in this area so that we would never have had pirates. Following the line about the licence to print money, about Mulcahy preaching commercialism, I am for the alternative but I must say also that other governments in other countries, in France for instance, are involved in this type of broadcasting. Why do the Irish people always have to be the goodies on the international scene?

At one time it was said that we did not have frequencies to do that sort of thing. Now, 15 years later, not only do we have frequencies but we also have available to us a long-wave frequency which gives us the opportunity to penetrate Europe in a most startling way, and one would hope that it would be used. That is what I am advocating. I am not advocating money making, no matter who puts up the proposition. If RTE say that this is a profiteering and money making issue, I ask why did they not take a slice out of it themselves and keep down the advertising charges and the licence fee in the meantime. We all know that was not the reason. I am pleased to see that this first step has been taken. I hope that by taking this step it will let in the light and that we will be able to see a new era in broadcasting.

One of the interesting outcomes of this is that we will have a healthier entertainment industry, more jobs for young people and the record industry will produce more records that will be given greater coverage. When I wrote about this last year I pointed out that RTE had played some recent release something like twice a week in comparison to five times a day in Belfast local radio. One week later there was a new deal going on because that was made public. The other point that is made is the difficulty about funds.

There is no need to be afraid that there will not be enough advertising revenue to finance this sort of broadcasting. When we were setting up television broadcasting towards the end of the fifties it was said that the newspapers would be ruined by the introduction of a form of commercial television in terms of the provision of advertising slots. It was obvious to anyone who thought about it at the time that it would not be the case. That will not be the case either as far as local radio broadcasting is concerned. A new era is with us and I welcome it in the form of whatever Bill is to be produced.

Mr. Alexis FitzGerald

That there is a new era in a new sense is very obvious and very much to be recognised, but whether that new era is to be welcomed is another matter, in the sense of it being a change which is clearly an improvement. Senator Harney when she was opening the debate in an Assembly which she said had for too long been only a glorified debating society, talked about the older and more conservative elements resisting change. These words should be examined by the Senator. Is there a necessary identification of older and conservative and, if so, is that something bad, or is there a necessary identification of change and therefore something good? Senator Harney ought to ask herself the question whether there are not at this stage and in this era of mankind changes to be controlled which are unwelcome, changes which are opportunities for good as well as for evil, and whether in relation to this matter we are looking to see how this wonderful achievement of mankind, this marvellous new technology, is available in the communications field and whether what is likely to develop if we do not apply the right principles to controlling it will be of proper use, proper development and a full exploitation of all the benefits available.

When I look at television, which is rarely, or when I listen to radio which is quite often, I am reminded of what Chesterton said—and this time he actually said it instead of having it attributed to him—when he saw Broadway for the first time, and saw the neon lights everywhere. He said "What a wonderful sight if you could not read". I think about the missed opportunities of these wonderful improvements. When I look at television I see and enjoy the programmes that come from different stations I see what wonderful potentials there are in this for improving peoples' lives.

People in Ireland are shy at the absurd over-reaction to the puritanism of Victorian times, are shy of saying firmly that these things should be used for the improvement of mankind. There should be a commitment to make the best of life for man and to encourage great conditions in which he can make the best choices that are open to him. Therefore, I am very much on the side of those who want to see this matter dealt with in such a way as to improve the state of our society, and I am not thinking merely of Ireland. When I think of Senator Mulcahy's reference to the frequency of the radio wave with which we can penetrate Europe, I wonder if penetrating Europe would not be like some of us addressing the Seanad, whether when we got to the point of making our great communication to Europe we would not be wondering what on earth did we want to say to them. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves that question: What do we want to say to the world? What wonderful message have we got to give to the world? What things are there in the world that we do not want to hear of, that are in some way subtracting from life? All of that leads on to a larger kind of debate.

There has been a great deal of writing in the past 100 years about the fundamental problem of work, a problem that was discerned by Marx before it fully emerged, that is, the alienation of man from his work which is a result of the industrial process. If I had to vote for a single factor which would be the lowest common denominator for mankind to provide some kind of a basis for happiness I would say job satisfaction. Other factors might be available for different people.

If industry has developed in such a way that conditions of work are created which make it less possible for man to be satisfied with his work that may be at the base of a very great deal of our social problems. There has been an observation made in the last 20 years or so that things are developed now to a much more dangerous point, where man is not merely alienated from his work but he is now alienated from his entertainment, that his entertainment is alienating man from himself and from his society because of the nature of these communications, because of the fact that you are a passive recipient, seated like the Dauphin of France in your carriage, drawn by 16 horses over O'Connell Bridge while magical orchestras played to you—you turn a knob and it all comes to you. Almost every man now is the Dauphin of France. Those who are not are the unfortunate people that our society does not take proper care of. The rest of society are greedily complaining because they are not the Kings of Poland, Spain, Great Britain as well as the King of France, and fighting like mad about the conditions that are already better than what their fathers ever dreamt they would ever attain. Above all we should seek to take such a control of this and ensure that the very best is made of these achievements. Probably the only reason that I would like to live in Moscow is that they do not have advertising. The advertisements are the cross that RTE seem to have to carry and that RTE viewers have to suffer.

But I suppose that if we are thinking there will be marvellous things coming from commercial television through more of these blasts of advertising thrown at us all the time, this is a misery to be accepted because of the levels of our incomes.

On to the organisational side—the finance—I think it would be outrageous if we walk into a situation where there is any question of anyone being given a licence to print money. I do not think there should be any question whatever of that. If there are concerned voices expressing this kind of view in the Department of Finance let me tell them I am with them. If there is a real risk being taken, let those who take the real risk take it. If the gamble comes off let them earn their reward, but we now know a great deal of what has gone on elsewhere. Let us take advantage of that knowledge and not have any licence to print money. Let us not go through the farce of believing that somebody who is allowed to communicate to a city like Dublin will suffer a loss if we know enough about it all and make the necessary projections. Let us ensure that he is getting a preference return on his money, some sort of a solid remuneration on his capital, but no windfall profits, no marvellous benefits.

On the organisational side, I am all for the competitive business in the sense of getting people to be on their toes and make the best of things and not be sitting back and taking advantage of over-favourable conditions but that does not necessarily mean independent financial structures. It could all ultimately be a State-controlled operation if the organisational aspect is properly done. Competition is good in that sense but it is not good if it is directed to the provision of a service where the nature of the matter means that the service is profitable if rendered in one place and not profitable in another place. It is obviously going to be profitable to shove messages out in Dublin but it would be extremely unprofitable to shove them out into some remote part of Ireland.

People who get licences to do this should be under an obligation to see that they provide services to the areas of low population density, or there should be some system of cross-subsidisation, out of the licence fees, of those with the poorer runs. I feel, on the local radio scene, for example, that RTE should be given an authorisation which would enable them to come in. The RTE authority should not have control of the licensing for these various stations, but should have an option of coming in in particular areas and taking air space. The State, through VAT, will make them more independent of advertising or give them extra money. I would like to see a system of the mixture of the public and private approach.

I notice that Senator Keating put pirates in brackets when he was talking about pirate stations. I would like to hear why any pirates should be put in brackets; why they should not be un-bracketed and be pirates, if they are pirates? The emergence of these pirates does seem to be a clear piece of evidence that the political parties have not been succeeding, at least in this area, in discovering where there is a demand. I cannot agree that where there is a demand, there is necessarily a need—that equation I question. If there is a demand so rigorous that it is prepared to go out and risk the business of expressing itself in illegal activity, there should have been anticipation of that, a recognition of it, a more rapid reaction to it. With that degree of intensity, obviously there is a need which is being felt in such a way that society will have to adapt its institutions to deal with it. The political parties' specific job is to see that these needs are discovered before they get to the point of illegality and are in some way rationalised into our system. If there is a Department with an old, conservative view, that Department should, through political party pressure, under its Minister's direction be doing the business of preparing the necessary adjustments to our institutions to provide for that.

We can perhaps learn overall from this particular experience. Are we losing ground sufficiently actively among the grass roots, apart from being concerned to grow the right grass, which we certainly ought to be? That is the last point I would like to make.

Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick,

Dublin South-Central): First, I should like to welcome this motion. I congratulate Senator Harney for introducing it. It gives the Seanad an opportunity of putting forward views on a Bill that is not completed and is in its final draft. The contributions here have been useful, and the Seanad can be assured that when the final draft of the Bill comes various suggestions which have been made here today will be seriously considered. Broadcasting today is an important subject which is attracting the attention of many people. It plays a very important role on our lives and, indeed, with the development of communications today not alone in Ireland, but throughout the whole world, there is ever-increasing demand for it. That is the reason why I welcome this motion and Senators can be assured that any proposals put forward here will be examined carefully in my Department.

The Government's decision in regard to the provision of local radio services should not have come as a surprise to anybody because the Fianna Fáil Party's general election manifesto made it clear that it was intended to develop the broadcasting services in various ways. As promised in that manifesto, a Programme Council strongly representative of people in the former single channel areas has been set up to advise the RTE Authority on the selection of the best television programmes available from BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV and other sources, for transmission on the second television channel which was inaugurated on 1 November last.

The manifesto also said that Fianna Fáil proposes the expansion of radio broadcasting—international, national and local—the greater use of regional studios and increased programmes of an educational and cultural nature. Already RTE have been given approval to increase the hours of the existing radio service and to provide a second national radio service. The increase in the hours of the existing service and the opening of RTE 2 are planned for the end of this month. The hours of Radio na Gaeltachta have been increased since the change of Government and a further increase in the hours for that service has been announced recently by RTE. So, Senators can see that positive steps have already been taken at this time to ensure greater communication to cater for the various views.

I can fully appreciate the difficulties which RTE had, with one radio channel to cater for the various views throughout the country. This extension will help them to a very large extent. We know there is a big demand for all types of information today. We are now a member of the EEC and people in this country, who probably heretofore had no interest in the development of these countries, are today seeking information on a international scale; they are concerned to know what is happening. But we also have the development of community involvement. Right around our city and, indeed, our country, communities are springing up. They want to help each other, which is an excellent idea and it shows that there is this spirit of community. This has, to some extent, made us all think about the best type of broadcasting to serve these sections of the community.

The position, as Senators know, up to now has been that licences to operate broadcasting stations could not be issued to anybody or person other than RTE.

The Government for some time have been considering the question of the future development of broadcasting services. There has been evidence of a significant demand for purely local radio services to complement the national services. Having considered the matter in depth, the Government authorised the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to arrange for the preparation of new legislation to provide for the establishment of an Independent Local Radio Authority which would operate broadcasting transmitters for local radio services, under licence issued to the authority by the Minister. It is the intention that the new authority will enter into contracts with organisations for the provision of local radio services and will regulate and control independent local radio broadcasting generally. The new authority will provide transmitters in areas where they are satisfied that sufficient demand exists for a franchise to provide an independent local radio service and where they are satisfied that advertising revenue will be adequate to finance a comprehensive local service. The local stations will be required to provide programmes of a high general standard and to maintain a proper balance and wide range in subject matter. The new authority will be expected to monitor the performance of programme contractors by exercising control over the programmes and advertisements broadcast by local radio stations and ensuring that each station covers a wide range of subjects of local interest. The intention is that the programme contractors selected by the authority will provide the studios.

The proposed structures for independent local radio services here will be broadly along the lines of those which have operated satisfactorily in Britain for independent radio services there.

Throughout the history of broadcasting in this country successive Governments have adopted the policy that our broadcasting services should be provided as public services. Prior to 1960, the day-to-day responsibility for broadcasting rested with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The enactment of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960 which established the Radio Éireann Authority, now known as the Radio Telefis Eireann Authority, recognised that the form of organisation which had been in operation up to then was not suitable for controlling the national broadcasting services. The Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, placed general duties on the authority and gave them considerable autonomy in the exercises of their functions of providing national broadcasting services. The power of intervention by the Minister or the Government in the running of broadcasting services has been confined to a small number of matters in which the State's interests must be safeguarded.

The new authority will operate along similar lines and will, in effect, be the public custodian of independent radio broadcasting. At the same time, the introduction of independent broadcasting should enable the talents, upon which good broadcasting depends, to flourish so as to increase the range and variety of programmes and programme services. The new services will be expected to have a strong local involvement and should reflect the interests of the communities they serve. For example, they will be able to deal in depth with local issues and therefore help to build strong community ties.

The preparation of the necessary legislation to provide for the establishment of an Independent Local Radio Authority is proceeding. Senators will appreciate that as the legislation is not in final form at this stage, I cannot go into any more detail regarding its provisions. As I said at the outset, Senators can be assured that the suggestions which have been made today by the various speakers will be considered seriously before the final draft of the Bill goes before the Government. However, it is expected that the Bill in question will be ready for introduction in the Oireachtas by the autumn and I am sure that Senators will have an important contribution to make to the debate at that time.

I would like now, to say a few words about the question of illegal broadcasting stations at present operating here. Existing legislation has been found to be inadequate to enable the problem to be dealt with effectively. The radio frequency spectrum is a scarce natural resources and its use by the numerous authorised services, including the broadcasting service, is governed by international agreements, so that harmful interference between different services can be avoided. Many of the illegal stations operating here are capable of interfering with radio frequencies used by Irish and British Coastguard Stations in a way which could seriously affect search and rescue operations in the event of an aircraft or marine disaster off the coasts of Ireland or the United Kingdom. That cannot be allowed to continue. Accordingly, the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Bill, 1979, which was recently introduced in the Dáil is designed to give more effective powers to deal with unlicensed broadcasting stations. Senators will, of course, have an opportunity to debate this Bill in due course and I am confident that they will appreciate the necessity for this legislation at this time.

Dr. Martin

I have very few observations to make on the motion except to welcome very much the plan to establish local radio throughout the country. I have always taken a very strong interest in the whole question of broadcasting. Indeed, it has been one of the issues that has come in front of this House quite saliently, particularly during the last administration, in connection with the proposed plan then to import holus-bolus and re-broadcast one of the BBC television programmes. Senator West and I, among others, very strenuously opposed that. We opposed the motion that we should be indiscriminate in anything that we offer to the Irish public in terms of radio or television on the basis that it is very important that our broadcasting should reflect our thinking and our community and give back to the Irish people an accurate and exemplary image of what they are and what they wish to be; what their aspirations are and what their history and their identity is. I am very glad that that scheme was defeated and that the present administration are interested in setting up these local radio centres.

One of the chief social advantages which I hope will accrue from this is a breakdown of the sense of separation, dislocation, that takes place in Ireland, even now. I am sure Senators who come from the west and south, and indeed the midlands, are much more aware than most people in Dublin are of the sense of alienation from our national broadcasting that people in the country feel at times. It is less true of some radio. Radio in Ireland for various reasons, has always kept its finger on the pulse of Irish society, particularly rural society. There are mobile units on the roads concerned with traditional music, the whole area of folklore and the whole dialogue with the traditional historical Irish lifestyle. That has always been well reflected on radio. In other words it is the voice of the provinces, the towns and parishes. It always had a very eloquent, very rich and welcome presence on radio. This has been less true of television because it is in many ways a grosser, cruder, less subtle and less accurate medium, though it has the corresponding quality of being much more powerful in its impact.

It has always worried me a little over the years to find that this power of television has set up so many negative vibrations here and there. One hears around Ireland, for instance, phrases like "that crowd up in Dublin" or "that crowd up in Montrose". This probably reflects a certain degree of reality in the sense in which a broadcasting station can become a little world unto itself and listen only to its own voices and broadcast only what falls congruent on its own prejudices. That is one of the biggest problems, and I am sure the Minister of State is well aware of this as a difficulty. It is certainly one which the television authorities are aware of, but how to cope with it is not easy.

I am iaboriously coming around to the fact that obviously this notion of local radio is a step in the right direction. It will involve a kind of one-way traffic. I remember last summer that excellent scheme of having a mobile unit move around the country and stop in a town for a fortnight, allowing the local people to take it over and broadcast. I saw that in action in my own home town in Ballinamore, County Leitrim. It summoned its exiled sons and daughters back to it for the fortnight. I was very impressed at the extraordinarily beneficial effect that had on the entire community. For instance, local historians, whom we barely knew existed, appeared from nowhere and put on programmes of extraordinary sophistication and very great cultural richness. There were local people talented in other ways, musicians and wits and so on. For that fortnight I felt that the part of the country within the signal range of that station suddenly was alive and was very conscious and very proud of being itself. It was the opposite to the kind of alienation which rural communities feel when they look at the kind of jet-set image that sometimes emanates from Montrose. Perhaps "jet-set" is going a bit far to describe it, but it is very hard to find the right language to describe what I am talking about, the kind of alienation that can be felt between the provinces, if one were to use a pejorative phrase, and the metropolis.

The Minister, in his speech, has shown great sensitivity to many of these issues. I would like to compliment him on the Bill but also to encourage him as far as possible to increase realisation of how important this matter is as a concept of broadcasting. It has the advantage of being a two-way traffic. One of the great disadvantages of television is that it is very hard to get even a good phone-in programme. It is very hard to get the dialogue going both ways. The medium is so very expensive and time is so precious that they go for the big stakes and miss a lot of the subtleties of community life of which broadcasting should be an expression.

Some of these pirate broadcasting stations have shown great initiative and have very talented people who have produced some very good programmes from time to time. Regretfully I have to agree with the Minister that they must be brought under control. It cannot be a free for all. Apart from the search and rescue operations which they are putting in jeopardy, the notion of stations which employ people on an hour-to-hour basis without any security of tenure in their jobs, without any pension rights or social security, or without any long term concern with their future, is to be deplored. This creates a situation where they are in an unfair competition with a national broadcasting outfit which has to meet all kinds of trade union obligations and social obligations in these matters. It would be interesting to see some of the talented personnel that have been thrown up from these unofficial broadcasting stations absorbed into the national broadcasting operation. That might be a consummation devoutly to be wished.

I would like to compliment the Minister on his plans and we look forward to seeing them spelled out in more detail.

Séamus de Brún

Tá sé nios deacra dom anois labhairt taréis an méid a dúirt an tAire ionas go bhfuil bhunriachtanaisi an Bhille seo curtha os ar gcomhair aige cheana féin. Tá deacracht eile agam. Ni raibh mé i láthair nuair a cuireadh an tairiscint os comhair an Tí i dtosach ag an té a mhol an tairiscint, is é sin, an Seanadóir Harney. Mar sin féin, ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an dtairiscint seo. Is eol dom, ar ndoigh, nach bhfuil an Bille i ndréacht fós agus nach bhfuil an tAire nó an Rialtas ró-chinnte céard a bhéas acu féin go díreach san reachtaíocht a chuirfidh siad os comhair an Oireachtais. Dá bhri sin tá sé nios deacra orainn meastachán a dhéanamh air. Ach mar sin féin, tá mé cinnte go ndéanfaidh siad cúram agus go dtabharfaidh siad aire do na riachtanaisi náisiúnta agus don dualgas de réir Bhunreacht na hÉireann atá ar an Oireachtas, is é sin, caomhnú, aitheantas agus tacaiocht a thabhairt do gach rud a bhaineann le Gaelachas, leis an teanga, leis an gcultúr agus leis an dearcadh náisiúnta.

I speak at a slight disadvantage as I was not present when the motion was introduced by Senator Harney. On the question of the establishment of an independent local radio, one wonders how the title of the motion knits in with an independent local radio. I admit that we have not yet seen the provisions of the Bill and cannot even envisage what they will be. Can local radio be fully independent, for instance, if it is established by the Government under the supervision, presumably, of an authority? If so, I would have certain reservations and worries in that regard.

I welcome the establishment of local radio generally because it can render a great service to the nation in bringing together the various facets, traditions and styles of life from all the different areas of this country. There is a vast variety. I would be worried if fully independent local radio were established because I would be afraid—and I am inclined to agree with much of what Senator Keating said earlier in the debate—of multinationals or great commercial interests taking over and establishing that local radio or rather getting a whip on it and gearing it along lines that would be detrimental to traditions, national standards and the national way of life. That would be a retrograde step and would be detrimental to the basic fundamental obligation that lies on this Oireachtas to safeguard, promote and foster our language, our culture, our music, our traditions and all that is best in the Irish Christian way of life. I would be very concerned about that.

I would urge the Minister, if he is delegating independent control to any authority which he envisages or proposes to establish, to have certain very essential criteria incorporated in the principles or in the safeguards of the provisions of that authority that will not allow them to depart from the desirable ambitions I have outlined. Presumably licences will be offered to certain organisations who will apply to be recognised as operators of local radio. I would suggest that the credentials or criteria of these bodies should be examined very closely and that they should be adjudged as bodies capable of the duties which would be handed over in the establishment in this important concept of Irish life.

There are various organisations who would be capable of taking over and to whom it would be desirable to give such licences. I cite a number, not because I am particularly interested in or associated with these organisations. One such organisation is Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Eireann. It will be admitted that this is the most active and progressive cultural organisation in the country today. As such Comhaltas would be a body deserving a licence to establish a unit of local radio. Many people here may not be aware that this organisation in their headquarters in Monkstown have a fully equipped modern studio already in which we are making our own records and our own master tapes for the processing of records. The studio is fully equipped for the work which would be done by a local radio station and is also professionally manned. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann would be fully deserving of a licence of the kind I have mentioned. So also would Gael Linn, who have also been doing great work in that field for many years and have to their credit many many fine records and tapes of the best of our music and song. There are other organisations and voluntary bodies who have no commercial ambitions and whose ambitions are not to make money or not to reap any harvest from local broadcasting or local radio.

Radio 2 has been mentioned here today on many occasions by different Senators. As I understand it, Radio 2 is to be exclusively given over to pop music and its promotion. This, if it be true, I deprecate. I do not think it is in the best interests of this nation or in keeping with the aspirations of our people that a national radio station or television station should be fully and exclusively given to promotion of pop.

The words "need" and "demand" have been mentioned here today on various occasions, particularly the word "demand". We have been told that there is a great demand for this and that therefore these needs and demands must be met. I would submit that we forget sometimes when we talk and mention these terms that sometimes we create these demands or we help very considerably to create them. If one begins, slightly at first perhaps, to give people a service which they have not already got, one is thereby creating a demand which may develop to great proportions. It is a well-known fact that a certain category of sport has been popularised and the demand for it created in this country in recent years. I use the word "created" positively and with a full sense of responsibility.

There are other matters to which I would like to refer, but I do not want to overstay my time because I understand that other Senators wish to speak. I will refer to one other matter. Senator Mulcahy, in the context of using the words "demand" and "need", mentioned the great work being done at present by young people for Irish traditional music, and he mentioned the need to cater for demands. I do not agree that it is young people who are doing that great work. Those of us who are older inspired these young people and led them to a love and participation in the learning and playing of music until that music has come to a state of popularity today that was unthought of 20 or 25 years ago. We do not realise the great advancement that has taken place in the popularisation, growth and development of Irish music. Many Senators here perhaps do not know that a recent Gael-Linn record by a traditional group in this country sold 6,000 copies in Germany within the first six months of issue.

Tá mé nios fuide ag labhairt ná mar a cheap mé. Tá áthas orm go bhfuair me deis labartha leis an méid seo a rá. Ceapaim go bhfuil tábhacht an-mhór ag baint le radio logánta nó radio áitiúil agus gur áis é a thaithneoidh leis na daoine i gcoitine agus gur áis é is ceart a chur ar fáil do na daoine lena mbealach saoil agus a nósmhaireacht shaoil a chur chun cinn agus a chur in iúl dá chéile agus níos mó dlú-bhaint a bheith ag na daoine ar fad, mar ar scáth a chéile agus i dteanta a chéile a mhaireann na daoine.

Mr. Jago

There are two sides from which one can approach this; one is from the point of view of the person who enjoys the programmes at present being put out by the pirate stations and the other is the matter of fulfilling a demand. I do not think I would organise a march through the streets of Dublin so that I myself could continue to enjoy the programmes at present being put out by the pirate stations. As a former member of the RTE Authority I look on this as a demand which has been created.

Several years ago local radio and local broadcasting was discussed almost universally. In Canada it was discussed in detail and documented in detail and they formed, evidently successfully, local broadcasting under a central broadcasting authority. However, local broadcasting in Canada is very different from Ireland when one takes the areas into consideration. Their local area would be ten times the area of this country. At that time there were discussions in Radio Éireann on local broadcasting and at that time Radio na Gaeltachta was formed, which to a certain extent fulfilled a local demand.

At the same time in Cork there was a local programme, "Corkabout", which also fulfilled a demand to a certain extent. It fulfilled a demand for getting local news, local affairs and local people on the programmes. There was a demand for this and the programme fulfilled it. Evidently it did not go far enough, because I understand there are two pirate stations operating quite successfully in the Cork area and if "Corkabout" had fulfilled the demand I do not think those stations would be operating.

There is a demand and we must decide whether to fulfil it. It is certain that the present position cannot continue with these pirate stations causing trouble taking up air space and operating without meeting the commitments to the community which Radio Éireann have to meet. Therefore the Minister's decision that they have to go off must be the right one. I agree that there is a demand which should be fulfilled, but a demand that has to be controlled, and I welcome the decision of the Minister to do this under an authority separate from Radio Éireann. At this stage we have to look forward to the Bill the Minister will produce and then we can discuss the controls which he considers should be brought in.

Professor Conroy

I should like briefly to join in the discussion of the motion which, as the debate has shown, is particularly relevant. We pay a great deal of lip service at times to the idea of the local community and the needs of youth. All too often in practice we tend to forget the words we have spoken and do very little practical about them. Here we have a recognition of the fact that in local radio there is something which is particularly of a community nature and that there is a particular community need. In saying this I am in no way denigrating RTE. The programmes they have produced and the standards which they have set and maintained have been extremely high and compare most favourably with any broadcasting service throughout the world, despite the enormous disparity in the funds available to our broadcasting services. I am speaking here in an overall sense and not about any particular programmes or types of programmes. The general standard of broadcasting here has been extremely high.

We have a national broadcasting service and no matter how much it endeavours to cater to the local community needs almost by definition it cannot really do so. Senator Jago has mentioned the example in Canada and there are similar examples in Australia, the U.S. and the U.K. of the benefits of community radio. It does have a tremendous immediacy. We talk a lot about communications. In broadcasting one can in a local community have direct communication between the individual on the telephone speaking with the broadcaster and this provides opportunities of the highest nature in enabling a community to be a community. This is something which cannot possibly be done on a national radio owing to the very large numbers involved and the fact that the people on national radio cannot possibly know the needs and requirements of a local community.

There has been a lot of talk about the pirate radios, and perhaps this topic has received too much emphasis. Nonetheless there is what has been called a demand, a need, certainly some sort of desire, and not an unreasonable desire, expressed by youth. We may not always agree with the type of music or programme which is requested but nonetheless this is an appeal by youth. They have shown that they desire to have certain types of light radio programme. This is desired not only by youth. One wonders if this is something that the State should be providing. Surely it is something which the local body can respond to much more readily and appropriately. I do not think that taxpayers' money should necessarily go into this form of programme, other than to the most limited extent necessary.

This immediately brings up the question of control of radio and broadcasting. It is true that a national broadcasting authority can be explicitly requested or explicitly instructed to have attitudes, to take certain courses of action. As Senator de Brún has indicated in his very thoughtful contribution to the debate, there are certain cultural aspects which we need to support. There is however a slightly different aspect to this in that a single monolithic broadcasting service inevitably tends to give a certain point of view. With all the goodwill in the world, it is quite impossible for a national broadcasting corporation to represent the actual thoughts and feelings of what Senator Martin referred to as the provincial aspects, but it is even impossible for it to really represent the metropolitan aspects. The reason for the success of the pirate radios here in Dublin, is that they were able to respond to the metropolitan community. It is obviously intolerable, and a totally wrong situation, to have illegal broadcasting in this manner, but there is the definite community need, which is not simply in one area of the country, but extends to all the country.

A number of other topics have come up in this debate. We are not at present discussing a Bill, but it would seem that when the relevant Bills come along we will have quite an interesting discussion on them. I welcome this motion because of its intrinsic value and also because in an immediate sense it was proposed by our youngest Senator and in many ways it represents the aspirations and feelings of our youth.

Go raibh mile maith agat.

Miss Harney

I thank the Seanad for the warm welcome they gave this motion and for the many contributions we have had from both sides of this House. I also pay tribute to the Minister of State for coming along here today to listen to our contributions and to make an excellent speech. I did not really expect the Minister to outline what the Government intend bringing in in this proposed legislation. I put down this motion simply to give Seanad Éireann an opportunity of making a worthwhile contribution to the legislation that I know the Government are about to introduce. It has been a worthwhile exercise and the Minister got many excellent suggestions that I hope will be in the Government's legislation.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald played a little bit of semantics by wondering if the words "conservative""old", "new""young""change" and so on were really compatible. The Senator questioned whether or not change was always change for the better. Well even I, who happen to be so young and so innocent, would not for one moment suggest, as Senator FitzGerald implied, that every change is change for the better. In this regard the changes I outlined that I would like to see in Irish broadcasting would be for the betterment of society. Many of our people, particularly our young people, want access to a broadcasting service. If we do not have an independent local network for our younger generation they will turn back to Radio Luxembourg and the other foreign stations. That is the reality. We are simply catering for a demand that exists.

RTE would never have responded if it was not for the fact that illegal pirate radio stations were established. RTE have said to us "you will take what you get and if you do not like it, then hard luck, you cannot have anything else." That is not very satisfactory, and it is not the way Irish broadcasting should have been conducted.

Senator Keating believed that the issues we were discussing today were as old as the technological revolution. I cannot accept that the issues and the concern that people, particularly the younger generation, have today for independent local radio, are issues that were relevant 20 or 30 years ago. Senator Keating said that RTE do what they are permitted to do by the Government. I cannot possibly accept that. I am not aware that there has ever been any demand from any RTE authority for an independent local radio network. RTE could be encouraged to provide the type of service that Senator Keating wants, by just allowing them to have local radio stations. Senator Keating wonders whether we need independent radio stations. We do, because competition is necessary. I do not accept, as Senator Keating pointed out, that big business and commercial interests would necessarily take over. Independence is good. What I want to see, and what he does not want to see, is independence from RTE. That would be in the best interests of the Irish people and of Irish broadcasting.

Senator de Brún raised a few questions about the proposed RTE 2 radio station which is about to take off at the end of May, and wondered what sort of people would be involved in it. As far as I am aware RTE 2 have employed many of the people who were working directly in the pirate radio stations.

I understand as well that they will be giving recognition to all forms of music and that it will not be just popular music. Several hours per week will be given to traditional Irish music, and this will be played in the evenings when perhaps people who want to listen to that sort of music will be better able to listen to it. More popular music is to be heard during the afternoons and mornings.

For too long radio has been the poor relation in the whole broadcasting network. This situation has existed simply because the glamour of television has dazzled the eyes of the programme planners. RTE failed until very recently to awaken to the exciting possibilities which lie ahead for radio. RTE would never have proposed an expansion of their service if it was not for the demand that came from outside. After all they are our professional broadcasters, and should have told us what the people want. It is not a response that should have come from them when illegal pirate stations were set up.

I know that there are many excellent and creative personnel within RTE who have been frustrated for years because of the old-fashioned concepts of the RTE executives. Those people have not been listened to. Perhaps now they will be listened to when there is competition, and other people are ready and willing to take the RTE listeners away from them. It is time that RTE stopped shedding their crocodile tears and got on with the job of giving the people the type of broadcasting service they need.

Senator Mulcahy referred to the possibility of having a long wave frequency from this country. The Geneva Convention in 1975 allowed us to have that long wave frequency. Perhaps the Minister of State and his Department would urge RTE to implement a long-range service transmitting to the rest of Europe. The cost will be relatively little and it would do an excellent public relations job for our country. It would do much to enhance our image both businesswise and in respect of tourism and would also give Ireland an international standing and reputation. It is something long overdue that I hope will come about in the not too distant future.

It is important that the Government spell out the future role of RTE in any new broadcasting set up. Will they be allowed, for example, to continue with their plans for local radio or will that be taken away from them? What will happen to the very valuable service that Senator Martin referred to currently being provided by RTE in many towns and villages throughout the country? Whatever happens, the new network must be on stream before effective action can be taken against the existing pirate stations. I am not in favour, of any vacuum being created, because the listeners who are apparently listening to ARD, Radio Dublin, Big D, or whatever it is, will simply turn back to Radio Luxembourg or Radio Four. It is vital that when we set up our independent broadcasting local radio authority, every area in the country will be entitled to apply for a licence, including the current illegal pirate radio stations.

I again thank the Minister and the House for the reception they have given this motion. The comments heard here tonight will form a very vital part of any future legislation, because local radio is a reality in most countries. All we will be doing in Ireland is fulfilling a demand. We will be making radio acceptable to the ordinary man in the street. We will be giving the average Irish person a sense of identity and an awareness of what is involved in the local area. We will be allowing the average person and local business to compete on equal terms with national enterprises.

I thank the House again. I was happy to propose this motion and I apologise on behalf of the seconder who unfortunately had to leave and was unable to be here to make a contribution.

Question put and agreed to.