The matter I wish to raise on the Adjournment is one of the continuing education of a profoundly deaf child. I have given the name and address of this child to the Minister for Education so that she — and I have no doubt the Minister of State — will be aware that there has been some correspondence about the case with me and with others. At the outset I should like to say that I have arranged with Senator Robb that he may have a short period at the end of my 20 minutes to add to what I have to say because he has a special contribution to make from the point of view of his knowledge of the Northern Ireland situation.
Adjournment Matter. - Continuing Education of Profoundly Deaf Child.
I might point out to Senator McGuinness that whatever time Senator Robb uses must be taken out of her time.
I understand that. I promised him a couple of minutes out of my 20 minutes.
With regard to this child, the best thing I can do is to give a sort of brief history of her. She is now 11 years old and has completed her primary education. In her early childhood she became totally deaf because she suffered from meningitis. But, unlike many profoundly deaf children, she was not deaf from birth and, therefore, had already learned to speak and was in a slightly different position. When she recovered from her illness her parents, who were very anxious that she should have the best possible education, studied the options open to them. They decided, because she had already been able to speak and because she was psychologically assessed as being of a very high level of intelligence that they would make a great effort to have as normal an education for her as possible. For a while after her illness she went to the Celbridge No. 2 national school along with ordinary children and, along with that, to the deaf clinic at Harcourt Street Children's Hospital. This went on for two years. This was because the parents were living in the Celbridge area. It was a very difficult and expensive thing for them to keep up so they decided for the good of their child to move house to the Terenure area. They sent her to Rathgar Junior School, which is a private primary school where there is a very low number of children per class as compared with the average number of children per class in a national school. Also, there was previous experience in this school of teaching deaf children. She attended this school and also the deaf clinic at the same time and came to the end of her primary education in which she did exceptionally well. She is well up to the standard of hearing children of her own age group. In that sense she is in a profoundly different position from many deaf children who have attended special schools for the deaf and who may be doing quite well but are really not at the same level of education as ordinary hearing children of the same age.
When it came to the end of primary school the parents, naturally being concerned about their child's welfare, went on to investigate the possibilities for the future. They thought, first of all, of sending their daughter to the High School in Rathgar where her sister attended. But the pupil-teacher ration in that school, as in most secondary schools, was about 30 children per teacher. They were informed that they would not get more than a one-hour weekly visit from a visiting teacher for the deaf in the school. They felt that it was impossible for a totally deaf child to keep up with the standard of education there with this amount of extra tuition. They also investigated St. Mary's School for the Deaf in Cabra, which is a Dominican convent school, and felt that, while it offered a great deal to profoundly deaf children who had been deaf from birth and who were having a certain level of education, it did not prepare children for a full leaving certificate examination. They might have one or two children doing one or two subjects in the leaving certificate, but they did not prepare children for a full education and training such as a child would have in a normal school. The parents, conscious of their duty to their child, went further and discovered that in England there was a grammar school called The Mary Hare Grammar School, which was specially orientated towards deaf children who were of full educational ability and which gave — a term which is not usually used in this country —a grammar school education. I feel sure the Minister of State understands exactly what I mean by an academic secondary education to a high level where children were specially taught so that they would be able to sit public examinations on the same basis as hearing children.
For these parents, who are members of the Church of Ireland, this school also had the great advantage that it was an interdenominational school but, generally speaking, of a Protestant ethos and atmosphere. They considered this; and the child sat the highly competitive entry examination for this school and succeeded. She took the competitive interview to get a place in this school and succeeded. It is quite rare for somebody to get into this school and to reach this standard of education and she has had this enormous success. But the crunch came then — the fees for this school were higher than the parents could afford to pay and they applied to both the Department of Health and the Department of Education for help. The Department of Health, I understand, indicated that they would give up to £2,000 a year to help towards the boarding element of the school, but the Department of Education have hitherto refused to give any help at all. The reasons they are giving, as far as I understand them from the letter sent by the Minister's private secretary to the parents, were that the child could go either to Rathgar High School, to Ballinteer Community School or to St. Mary's School for the Deaf in Cabra.
I have already said why the High School, Rathgar appeared to be unsuitable and, a fortiori, Ballinteer Community School, which was a larger school with larger numbers in the classes, and the same level of help for the deaf, is equally unsuitable. It is not really possible for a girl who cannot hear at all to keep up with ordinary children in this sort of school with this level of numbers of pupils in the classes.
As far as St. Mary's School for the Deaf is concerned, I have already said that they are not geared to this particular type of grammar school education for children of high ability, but also there is the religious problem. It is perfectly true — and I must admit this straightaway — that the Church of Ireland chaplain for the deaf accepts that St. Mary's School is suitable for Protestant children whose parents wish to send them there. No doubt this has been pointed out again and again by the Department of Education. But — and this is a very big "but"— Catholic schools are Catholic schools and they are very proud of that fact. All of us will have read Catholic educators emphasising the importance of the ethos and atmosphere of a Catholic school and how it affects the pupils — and more power to them. Of course, that is what they want and, of course, that is what the parents who send their children to Catholic schools want. And they have every right to choose that kind of education. But it is not an education which necessarily appeals to convinced Protestant parents, who naturally want to have their child brought up in a school with a concomitant Protestant ethos and Protestant atmosphere or, at the very least, an inter-denominational atmosphere. When I say "atmosphere" it can be things as simple as the fact that if you go to a convent school, you will find that the place has plenty of statues — whether moving or otherwise — and has pictures of a type which are distinctly Catholic. All the other children attend Mass with the exception of two or three who are the odd ones out. When a parent does not mind that, it is fine, but if parents object and feel strongly about it, it is unfair for our State authorities to say that is the choice they have, the choice they have to make and to refuse to give a unique child in many ways this chance.
Interestingly enough, in the 1972 Department of Education report on the education of children who are handicapped by impaired hearing, which was a basic document about the education of the deaf, it is stated in section 7.50, page 118 that provision for Protestant children should be made to have them admitted to suitable schools in Northern Ireland or Britain. Clearly either the Department of Education authorities have not read this report or they do not believe what is said in it. It seems very undesirable that such pressure is being put on these parents in which they are given the alternatives of sending their children to an ordinary Protestant school, like High School, which is really not suitable for deaf children, or to a deaf children's school which is educationally not suitable and to which they have a conscientious religious objection. An extremely valuable part of our education system is the enabling of children to attend schools in accordance with their own religious ethos and background.
This is surely one of the things that was envisaged in Article 42 of the Constitution about parents' rights to educate their children. Hearing children are given this choice by the operation of grants through the Protestant secondary education committee where they have not got means to attend the schools of their religious choice. In addition, the State goes out of its way to provide transport for Protestant children to go to Protestant schools and this is very much appreciated by Protestant parents. Here we have a deaf child who is being refused this right. She is also being refused the best type of education that she can have. It contrasts rather strangely with the situation in Northern Ireland to which Senator Robb is about to refer and will show that the present situation makes rather a nonsense of the kind of attitude of the Minister for Foreign Affairs setting out to protect the rights of the minority in the North against religious discrimination. It also makes nonsense of the Forum report if we behave in a much more discriminatory fashion than the authorities in the North. I will now yield to Senator Robb to add to what I have said.
I thank Senator McGuinness for this opportunity to speak on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Poynton and Emma. I am very well acquainted with the ex-vice-principal of the Jordanstown School for the Deaf and he assures me that the one example that I know of personally where Catholic parents were anxious not to have their children educated in the Jordanstown School for the Deaf because it did not have a Catholic ethos were facilitated by the Department of Education in the North financially and also sympathetically encouraged to look elsewhere for the education which they wished, which was in Dublin. This is not a once off, it has happened on a number of occasions and without any fuss.
Senator McGuinness spoke about legislation which should entitle this child to education in Britain or in the North. We would appeal for reciprocity particularly at this time of Anglo-Irish dialogue. I also question whether what has taken place contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights. With these three matters in mind I appeal to the Department and particularly to the Minister to look again at what is happening to young Emma particularly in the light of what Senator McGuinness said about her ability and also about her parental preference. Choice is of the essence and it is up to the Irish Republic to show an example in this area if it is serious in its intentions of enticing the rest of Ireland into unity with it.
My Department and I had a considerable amount of correspondence in relation to this case. I came from Cork to Dublin to deal with this matter because it is an important one, but I did not have time to go through the file in great detail. The matter before the House tabled by Senator McGuinness is:
The failure of the Department of Education to provide for proper educational facilities for a profoundly deaf child who resides in Dublin.
There are proper educational facilities for deaf children in Dublin and these are available to the child in question. The child is a girl who has been educated hitherto at ordinary national schools, with additional speech training at the children's hospital in Harcourt Street. She also had the services of a visiting teacher of the deaf for a few hours each week. Visiting teachers of the deaf are employed by the Department of Education to assist pupils who are hard of hearing but who are otherwise capable of benefiting from education in an ordinary school. I am happy to say that it has been reported that the child has made remarkable progress. She is now 12 years old and due to commence her post-primary education. The normal venue for the education of profoundly deaf girls in Dublin is St. Mary's School for Hearing Impaired Girls in Cabra. This provides for the primary and post-primary courses for pupils from all parts of the country on both a residental and a daily attendance basis. It has a full range of staff, equipment and facilities and is the equal of any school for the deaf and hearing impaired anywhere. It would be a more suitable and proper educational facility in this case in view of the child's residence in Dublin.
This is not the only option. It is possible, as this child has demonstrated in her primary education, for a deaf child to attend an ordinary school if sufficient additional help in facilities appropriate to the case are made available. In correspondence with the parents two ordinary post-primary schools, in addition to St. Mary's, have been suggested. These schools have had experience of catering for children with various kinds of handicap. If either of these schools was chosen the services of the visiting teacher of the deaf would continue to be available to the child and it would be a matter for my Department to consider what further back-up services might be necessary. The way the subject for debate was phrased does not give any indication that there is any question of the Department being asked to fund the education of the child outside the State. In fact the Department were requested to pay for the education of the child at a school for the deaf in England, plus the cost of regular transport to and from that school six times a year. Nobody with expert knowledge of the education of the deaf maintains that the English school is educationally better or more appropriate than the Irish schools for the deaf. The advice of my Department inspectorate is that the school for the deaf in Cabra is internationally recognised, has been in existence for over 100 years and has pioneered the development of educational service for the deaf in this country. Some children from the North attend this school in Cabra. The stated reason for the parents wishing to send their child to school in England is they are members of the Church of Ireland and would like to send her to a school under Protestant or inter-denominational management. There is no indication of the phrasing of the subject for debate that there was a religious dimension in the matter but since I am aware that the Senator knows that there is that dimension I will deal with it briefly.
The Cabra schools were founded by and are still under the management of Catholic religious orders as the Senator already mentioned. I cannot accept that this would constitute any ground for the Department to fund the education of an individual child in a foreign school at a cost nearing £9,000. St Mary's Cabra, has hitherto catered for non-Catholic pupils and has respected in every way their denominational affiliation, including the need for special suitable arrangements for the religious education of pupils. At a recent count there were three non-Catholic pupils in the post-primary sector of the school and a total of ten such pupils in the schools altogether. Facilities are available for visits to the school by a Church of Ireland minister. If all this were not sufficient the school in Cabra is officially recognised as a national school and rule 69 (2) (a) of the Rules for National Schools states:
No pupil shall receive or be present at, any religious instructions of which his or her parents or guardians disapprove.
It would be unwise for the Department to agree to finance the attendance of a child at a foreign school where adequate facilities exist in this country. To do so on denominational grounds would leave the Department open to requests for members of various denominations in the country who, on the grounds of the special needs of their children, could request financial assistance from the Department to have their children educated at special schools abroad because such schools under the relevant denominational management are not available here. I am advised, given all the circumstances of the case, that a favourable decision to grant-aid the education abroad of the child in question is not justified on religious, educational or financial grounds. Such a decision could be seen as reflecting strongly on the educational provisions made in this country. It could also be construed as inequitable discrimination in favour of one family as distinct from many other families in similar circumstances with regard to the religious denominations and educational needs who have found the educational arrangements made for their children in this country quite acceptable.
As I said at the outset, I have an interest in this case because I am responsible for special education. I accept advice. I am not an expert on matters of that sort but I accept the advice from those people who are qualified, trained and who have spent years in the special education branch of the Department of Education. The inspectorate, with whom I discussed the case, are satisfied that the educational facilities available to this child are adequate.
Senator McGuinness made a point of which I took note and Senator Robb also made some points. I intend to look further into them and I will communicate with them. Senator McGuinness said that there was not a full range of subjects available for leaving certificate students at St. Mary's School. My information is that that is incorrect, but I intend to have a further look at that and will communicate with the Senator.
Senator Robb made the case about the constitutional matter in relation to this child and the right to be educated at a school of her choice. I am not a legal expert but we have advice on this from the Attorney General's office, because we took a very serious view of this, and we are advised that we do not have a constitutional obligation to provide what is demanded by both Senators here this evening.
I will have another look at the points raised here. My information and advice from everybody concerned is that the facilities available to this child are adequate, that other Protestant people are availing of the services here and are quite satisfied with what is provided in St. Mary's School in Cabra.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 October 1985.