Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Sep 1987

Vol. 117 No. 1

Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

There have been many tributes, endorsements, congratulations and expressions of gratification and it is time we decided to get down to the Order of Business. Even though our physical comforts are important, the business of the House is even more important. I would like to compliment you, a Chathaoirligh, on the work you did during the summer to ensure that we are sitting in comfort. I am not sure what the other Members feel, but I do not think this is not a working bench. In particular, I would like to join with Senator Robb in complimenting you on the fact that we have the national flag for the first time in the Seanad. It is about time our flag was brought into the Seanad Chamber.

Complimentary remarks have been made about the Office of Public Works. Sometimes they come in for a lot of stick in many places but I have seen the restoration work carried out by them throughout the country and there is no doubt that they have retained the services of some of the best craftsmen in wood and stone. I have no doubt that the job that will be done on the Seanad ceiling will be an excellent one. I have seen the work they have done in the restoration of ceilings in Butler House in Kilkenny which is the headquarters of Kilkenny Design Workshops. The ceilings there were as important as the ceiling in the Seanad and they did an excellent job in restoring and renovating them.

It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 on the Order Paper. Item No. 1 is the order for Second Stage of the Customs and Excise (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1987 and it will be taken next week. It is an important Bill and it will be circulated. The Bill was put on the Order Paper so that Members would have a chance to read it before it comes to the Seanad. There was pressure to have the Bill introduced and to take Second Stage today but because it is an important Bill I think it should be circulated before we discuss it. Committee Stage of the Abattoirs Bill will be taken today.

Item No. 3 on the Order Paper is a Government motion on roads and amendments have been put down to that. We will give the Members proposing the amendments time to make their propositions but there is no objection on this side of the House to the amendments as proposed. I do not think we should extend the debate or keep it too short because it is a motion that has connotations for us all. If the Senators who want to speak on it keep their speeches short we can get everybody in and we will not cut them off by restricting ourselves to the actual time limit of three hours.

Mr. J. Daly

I would like to ask the Leader of the House about the position of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses. When the Leader announced the setting up of committees I asked him about the Joint Committee on Small Businesses and he replied that when the six committees which had been nominated were established that committee would then be appointed. This is a very serious matter. A committee on small businesses would deal with the practice of below cost selling which has had tragic consequences for many people. Can the Leader of the House tell me now when he will set up that committee?

Mr. Ferris

I join with Senator Daly in what he has said about the Joint Committee on Small Businesses. I want to ask the Leader of the House when is it intended to bring before us proposals for the formation of a foreign policy committee. I know he is committed to the formation of this committee and the Seanad has already expressed the opinion that it would be desirable to have a foreign policy committee which would involve Members of the House. I hope the Leader of the House will use his good offices with the Government to get agreement on the principle of a joint Oireachtas committee to advise on foreign policy.

Mr. Byrne

I would like your guidance, a Chathaoirligh, on whether we will be allowed time to raise the very serious issue of the strike in the Irish Sugar Company at present. While respecting the rights of workers to go on strike I appeal to them to get back to work in the national interest because over £300 million worth of crops, our quota for future years and the jobs of workers' on the land and in the factories are at stake. I appeal to this House for time to discuss this serious issue because it is in everybody's interest to find a solution.

Mr. Hogan

I should like to ask the Leader of the House if he has given any consideration to allotting time for a debate on the Constitution. It was raised on a number of occasions in this House during the last session and perhaps the Leader of the House would indicate if he has allotted any time in the current session for such a debate.

Mr. Connor

Arising from the question raised by Senator Ferris in relation to what I would call a foreign affairs committee, during the lifetime of the last Oireachtas we had an all-party Committee on Co-Operation with Developing Countries. What is the Government's policy in relation to the re-establishment of this committee?

Mr. Cassidy

I want to ask the Leader of the House what the Government's position is in relation to the increase in bank charges and the scandalous position that the business community now find themselves in with inflation at 3 per cent and interest charges——

An Cathaoirleach

There is nothing about that on the Order Paper.

Mr. Cassidy

It is very serious and I want to ask the Leader of the House what the Government's position is in relation——

An Cathaoirleach

We are on the Order of Business for 30 September.

Mr. Cassidy

Should I have raised this before the Order of Business?

An Cathaoirleach

It is not on the Order Paper and I am trying to get the Order of Business for today cleared.

Mr. Cassidy

Can I humbly ask you, a Chathaoirligh, when I should have raised it? Should I have raised it before the Order of Business?

An Cathaoirleach

You should put down a motion.

Mr. Cassidy

It is nearly urgent enough to suspend the sitting of this House.

An Cathaoirleach

Everything that has to be dealt with is urgent.

Mr. Doherty

Some motions have been on the Order Paper for two months and I would like to know if they will be dealt with during the present session and if so, when. Most of us are members of local authorities and motions which we raise would be dealt with faster by sending them to the Minister rather than raising them here. When will they be moved or will they be moved at all?

Mr. Mooney

I also agree with Senator Doherty on that point. Item No. 24 states "That Seanad Éireann should not attempt to solve its present accommodation problems by encroaching on any part of the space of the National Museum" as tabled by Senators Murphy, Ross and J. O'Toole. In the light of your remarks at the opening of the Order of Business and added to what Senator O'Doherty has said, a number of motions seem to be irrelevant to the business, and perhaps they should be removed.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to clear a point. What you are talking about is not the responsibility of the Cathaoirleach. I do things and get things done to protect the Seanad but the responsibility for ordering and for dealing with what you are just talking about is not the responsibility of the Chair. I have enough on my shoulders and I am not taking any more. I want to explain this so that everybody will be satisfied. What I do not want — and it was happening during the last Seanad — was to come in at the commencement of the sitting of the House and reading down ten or 14 items for the Adjournment, when actually I should only be reading two and taking the first one.

The Ceann Comhairle in the other House and my predecessor — for whom I have the greatest respect, the former Senator Pat Joe Reynolds — took each motion as it came and gave priority to no one. That is what I am doing now. The only reason I referred to it again today was to bring it back to people's minds that I do not want to be reading out this long list every day.

Mr. Doherty

On a point of order, would it be possible to deal with motions on a separate day, as we cannot deal with them on Wednesdays or Thursdays? Could we sit on Tuesdays or Fridays?

An Cathoirleach

Senator Lanigan will deal with your query, Senator Doherty.

Mr. Doherty

On a point of order, I raised this with Senator Lanigan and he told me to raise it here. We should justify our existence or finish it off——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Doherty, first of all, I resent your last implication about this House and our responsibilities. What Senator Lanigan, as Leader of the House, has discussed with you outside here is no concern of mine. Actually, I would prefer for your own sake and for Senator Lanigan's that you did not quote it. I am still being helpful and I will take the items as they come to me. Every Adjournment matter in this House is urgent and important.

Mrs. Bulbulia

I think Senator Doherty's revelation was rather interesting. One is tempted to go down that road and discuss it but I will forbear. Could I ask the Leader of the House when he is replying to give an indication, if he has the information, as to what legislation we can expect to come before the Seanad over the next few weeks. I am pleased that he has alerted us to the Customs and Excise Bill which is item No. 1 on today's Order Paper. There are also three Bills on Committee Stage remaining on the Order Paper but obviously Senators would wish to know what legislation is likely to come before this House in the next number of weeks. Perhaps the Leader could give some indication as to the sitting pattern we will have, at least over the next four weeks.

Mr. Mooney

On a point of order, in relation to what you just ordered earlier and based on the information you have given, I did ask specifically about item No. 24 in the light of your earlier remarks. On the basis of the information you have given me that it is not your business to order the motions on the Order Paper——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Lanigan has not replied, Senator Mooney.

Mr. Mooney

It is not in the name of the Leader of the House, it is in the names of Senators Murphy, Ross and J. O'Toole. So it would be up to them to withdraw the motion. Senator Doherty's original point was the many motions on the Order Paper that are obviously now irrelevant or are items we will never get to.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to make one remark here. I know you have been on a recess and you may all feel rested and clear of mind today but I would prefer if the House got back to serious work and that the Leader may conclude the Order of Business.

Mr. Ross

I completely agree with you. I think the impertinence from the Fianna Fáil ranks is absolutely deplorable. I should like to answer the point made by Senator Mooney regarding the motion No. 24 in the names of Senators Murphy, Ross and J. O'Toole. We have absolutely no intention of withdrawing this motion. We will leave the withdrawing of motions to Senator Mooney who had to withdraw one of his own earlier, which was part of a deal to save the Government a great deal of embarrassment. This brings me to my point, maybe on that particular issue — the issue of extradition — Senator Lanigan could tell us whether we are going to have a resolution before 1 December in this House.

Mr. B. Ryan

On the Order of Business, would you not agree with me that in the arguments that have proceeded in this House what we are actually witnessing is a sham fight between the two Tory parties which now dominate Irish politics and whose battles are entirely irrelevant to the victims of their regressive, reactionary and anti-people policies?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think that has anything to do with the Order of Business here today.

Mr. Lanigan

I am not too sure where I should start but I think I should start where a little bit of sense came into the debate when Senator Bulbulia asked what type of legislation we could expect before the House in the next few weeks. I can assure her that there will be quite an amount of legislation. As I said next week we will discuss the Customs and Excise Bill. It is hoped that there will be two pollution Bills circulated within the next couple of days and we will be ordering those Bills for the next or following week. There is a possibility of a new insurance Bill coming in. I do not want to say that it will be in the next fortnight, but there is an insurance Bill to come before the House.

In line with some of the suggestions that have been made about companies and the problems in companies — Senator J. Daly mentioned this — it is important that we take the Companies Bill and that we get that Bill through this House as expeditiously as possible. I do not mean we are going to try to rush it through but it is important in the national interest that that Bill should go through. It is intended that starting next week we start Committee Stage of that Bill and at least that we will get through the first 50 sections as soon as possible. The first 50 sections are ones that will eliminate a lot of the problems that have been experienced by people in business and outside business over the past few months.

Senator Doherty asked about the relevance of some of the motions on the Order Paper. A large number of these motions are in my name and are as a result of committee reports. In the previous Seanad it was understood that we would take legislation on Wednesdays and reports from Committees on Thursdays. Thankfully, since the new Government came in they have given the Seanad the opportunity to introduce legislation here in the House and because of the number of Bills that have been introduced in the House — the Opposition will have to agree that this is the case — we have not been able to get down to dealing with motions. It is the intention of the Government that this House will be used to introduce legislation, as has been the case since they came to power. While I can see there is a need to debate the motions, legislation is more important. Members will agree that the more legislation that is introduced here the more relevant the House becomes. I will make no promises on the motions. If we reach the stage at which we do not have Government business we will take the motions on Thursdays. If the House feels there is a need to sit three days in order to clear some of the motions on the Order Paper the Whips can discuss that matter when hopefully we can accommodate everybody.

Senator Daly mentioned that I promised I would set up a small businesses committee. I am afraid Senator Daly's memory must be a little inaccurate in the sense that I cannot promise to set up any committee. We can set up a committee of the House on small businesses. I think what the Senator is talking about is a joint committee on small businesses. It is up to the Government to set up that type of committee.

Senator Ferris also mentioned the need for the establishment of a foreign policy committee. The Government have been alerted to the fact that quite a number of people are interested in the establishment of both a small businesses and a foreign policy committee. I will report the expression of interest from this House on the establishment of these committees. I am not saying we will be successful. However, the Government have stated that committees will be set up, as needed, and that no committee established in the past will remain solely on that account. Committees can be set up to deal with specific problems obtaining. That is the best way to go about the matter.

Senator Seán Byrne mentioned the Irish Sugar Company. All Members would agree with the sentiments expressed by him. It is something that the Government are taking into account. His sentiments will be reported to the Government. I hope all parties will take what he said into account.

On the allocation of time to be devoted to the Constitution mentioned by Senator Hogan, I am afraid that at this stage no time has been so allocated. That wish was expressed at the Magill summer school in County Donegal. I have read the only book I could find written by Patrick Magill, entitled Moleskin Joe. I do not think Patrick Magill would have any great interest in the Constitution. Rather he was more interested in obtaining a bit of bread in the morning and a drop of tea in the evening.

Mr. J. Doyle

May I say that the 50th anniversary of the drawing up of the Constitution was the issue?

Mr. Lanigan

The Constitution is a matter of importance. I will take account of Senator Hogan's wish to have time allocated to this matter.

Senator Connor mentioned the Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. Because that committee was not re-established people are inclined to think we are not co-operating as much with developing countries. This is not true. Senator Connor's wish to have that committee reinstated will be reported to the Government.

I do not think any Member of the House would disagree with Senator Cassidy's sentiments about bank charges, inflation and so on. There is concern about banking operations in the country. If Senator Cassidy puts down a motion I am sure the House will debate it in due course.

While the position regarding the post office mentioned by Senator McMahon might not appear to be of any great consequence I should say that were it not for the fact that the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges did not agree with the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges, the post office in Leinster House would now be closed. Thanks to the work of the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges the post office will remain open.

I am glad the remarks made in the House were beneficial to Senator Robb's work schedule. I am delighted to see him back here. I know it is his wish to serve his community as a highly professional doctor in his hospital. Equally he feels he has something to offer all of the people of Ireland through his attendance here. I am glad there has been an endorsement of the wishes of the Members of the Seanad that he be so accommodated.

I do not want to prolong my remarks but I should say we appreciate the work of the staff of the House although we do not often express it to them. Senator O'Toole mentioned the wish of the House to have matters of importance discussed. There is a procedure under Standing Order No. 29 of the Seanad which allows Members to raise matters of urgent public interest. In that way we may be able to discuss urgent matters of public interest in the House.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. J. Daly

In the interests of accuracy I would like to refresh Senator Lanigan's memory. When he mentioned the establishment of the joint committees he named the six. I asked about the re-establishment of the Committee on Small Businesses. This is one of the most important committees, the only one that produced three reports. Senator Lanigan gave me an undertaking that he would do his best when the new committees were being set up to ensure that that committee would be reinstated.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Senator Lanigan decide to lengthen the overall limit on time on item No. 3?

Mr. Lanigan

I suggested that we need not adhere strictly to the three hours. If people do not repeat themselves we can allow as many speakers as possible. Fifteen minutes per speaker was suggested. Possibly Members could say as much in three minutes as in five or 15 minutes. Perhaps I have spent too long on the Order of Business.

Order of Business agreed to.