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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jan 1988

Vol. 118 No. 5

Appropriation Act, 1987: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann notes the supply services and purposes to which sums have been appropriated in the Appropriation Act, 1987.
—(Senator Lanigan.)

What I said yesterday is that there is a mythology abroad that somehow what is being done in this country is inevitable and there is a particular offensive mythology abroad which suggests that if we did not have all those nasty, corrupt, self-interested, self-serving politicians, what is being done now would have been done a long time ago because it is so obviously correct. The strategy that is being adopted, which is represented by severe, highly selective and highly discriminatory cutbacks in public services is not inevitable. It is not the only way, and it most manifestly is not the best way. There is a fundamental doubt as to whether it can even achieve the objectives it is supposed to achieve.

I am not persuaded that continuous and successive cutbacks in public expenditure will ever actually achieve the objective of balancing the books of the Government. I am not persuaded that reducing public expenditure, which apparently will now result in a decline in gross national product and an inevitable decline in disposable income and in tax returns, will ever actually balance the books because I think it will cause a disproportionate depression in economic activity which will result in a decline in revenue to the State and an increase in unemployment which will have the direct opposite effect of what is intended.

I have frequently asked people — people in industry, commerce, business and economists — to give me an example of a country which has taken the road that they are advocating at the state we are at and under the conditions we have and which has succeeded in achieving anything. We have had these prescriptions tried, these prescriptions of dealing with economic crisis by severe cutbacks in public expenditure, all over South America, prescribed by the International Monetary Fund and by various other agencies. In no country have they succeeded in bringing anything other than misery, deprivation and injustice. They have not produced economic growth. They have not produced economic advantages to the great majority of the population. There is no evidence that what these produce is a short-term painful shock followed by a return to growth. It has not been demonstrated. It is a theory of an increasingly vocal lobby of economists which has very little factual evidence to sustain it.

I do think it needs to be said and said again that if economics is a science — which I doubt — then it must operate according to the rules of science. The first one is that the theory is only as good as the experimental evidence. However fine, pleasant, simplistic or appealing the theory, it is no good unless there is evidence to sustain it. I repeat what I have said over and over again, instead of presuming that because you say things over and over again that it becomes true, would those who advocate the line being taken by our Government please tell the Irish people and us where it has worked. For example, in 1981 Sweden had a budget deficit considerably in excess of ours as a percentage of gross national product. They have now almost eliminated it and they did not do it by closing hospitals and cutting back on fundamental services. They did it in an entirely different way. They did it without extensive human misery, without increasing the numbers of people who are unemployed, without causing a collapse in their productive sector, without causing massive emigration. It is impossible to find any serious study by an Irish economist on the achievements of many of the smaller nations of Europe. They have this fixation with looking West towards the United States which is a singularly unsuitable model or else looking to the Far East to a totally different culture. There is an utter unwillingness to look at comparable models, countries of a comparable state to ourselves — like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria and indeed Switzerland — and not to copy them but to see what we can learn from them.

I regret very much that there is now appearing an underlying strategy in these cutbacks which seems to me to be close to being a calculated attack on the poor and it is as much a reflection on the people who interview them as it is on the Government that when the Taoiseach was interviewed recently, he was able to dismiss an allegation that the cutbacks were bearing too heavily on the poor, simply by saying no they were not. Because neither the radio journalists nor television journalists who interviewed them seemed to have any information. I do think that instead of going on and dealing with a whole lot of issues I would like to confine the remainder of what I had to say to detailing — and I can do it without notes because it is so clear — the scale of the assault on poor people in our society by the present Government. The first thing that needs to be said is that there is no doubt that the real levels of welfare payments have been maintained. There is no doubt about that.

If we were to go on that alone then the alleged protection of the poor would appear superficially to have been sustained. The truth is of course that there is far more deprivation than income; it is a fundamental.

The first thing to be said is that everybody on welfare is unacceptably poor because of the unacceptably low levels of welfare. The second thing that needs to be said is that if at the same time as we do no more than maintain the real value of welfare, we make health services more inaccessible and increase waiting lists for health services. The same applies to education if we begin to chip away at free education, as is being done and has been done by successive Governments in recent years, so that little demands are made here and there on the fixed income of the poor for extra contributions for school heating, for the provision of things as minor as toilet paper. In the case of the school where my daughter attends, pupils have been asked to bring in plastic bags because there is a leak in the roof and the seats are getting wet. They need something to sit on so that they do not catch pneumonia. The list is endless of minor expenditures and minor costs schools can no longer meet.

If I am asked to contribute a voluntary contribution of 50p a week, of course I can afford it but if I was on £35 a week or £50 a week then 50p unbudgetted, unplanned, that I now have to meet means a litre of milk gone from the family table. They are the choices people are being forced to make. Even more fundamental than the assault on the costs which poor people have to sustain, the costs they will have to sustain in many areas of life as various economies are introduced in the health services, in the education services, in the deprivation of immediate treatment for their children which will result in increasing illness, are the cutbacks in the maternity services which will invariably result in an increase in the infant mortality rate. Margaret Thatcher has the dubious distinction of being the first British Prime Minister in the past 30 years to preside over an increase in the infant mortality rate in Britain. I regret to say that I think the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, may well have the same dubious distinction in this country. They are the sort of things that are easily seen if one wants to look.

It is a regrettable fact that most of our society, and most of our politics, seem to choose to adjudicate on the commitment to the poor exclusively in terms of whether their increases are above or below the increase in the cost of living. There is far more to the plight of under-privileged people in our society, to oppressed people in our society than income.

Let me go through the other small things which have gone unnoticed but which seem to me to be part of a deliberate plan. There was, for instance, the decision to close the National Social Service Board which now appears to have been reversed but which did appear to be part of a strategy. There is the in some ways more serious decision to hamstring the Ombudsman. In a quite extraordinary decision to save a small sum of money the Ombudsman has been deprived of staff and has been compelled to make a special report to the Oireachtas which the Oireachtas so far has blissfully chosen to ignore. I know there is a motion on the Order Paper of this House from Fine Gael Members about the matter but we have not discussed it and, apparently, we will not discuss it. The consequence of the Ombudsman being deprived of his capacity to operate is that people who need welfare, or who need other State services, can be put on the long finger, can be delayed, can be slowed down, can be kept waiting and will not be in a position to assert their right to have their services provided because the one independent enforcement agency that was available to them has been taken from them. That will result in the oppression of the poor even further in our society.

When we go through detail upon detail of peripheral areas where unnecessary economies which could not be justified in terms of the overall needs are being made we see that they all end up oppressing the poor far more than anybody else. The Government have created a climate of hostility to the unemployed, have created a climate in which every innovation in the Department of Social Welfare, whether it be computerisation or anything else, is seen, highlighted and headlined as another attempt to deal with fraud. It is virtually impossible now to get a member of the Government, or of the Government party, to talk about the consistent, deliberate degradation which unemployed people have to go through in the process of signing on. We have a consistent, and I think deliberate, degradation underlying virtually every statement from the Minister for Social Welfare on the issue of welfare. It seems to be a consistent catalogue of anti-abuse campaigns as if abuse was the only problem in social welfare, as if the humiliation of the recipients was not an equal problem.

I referred to the apparently deliberate calculated undermining of the Combat Poverty Agency in this House before, to the three successive reductions in one year in their allocated budget, to the arbitrary, unplanned, unconsulted cut backs in the budget of that agency. I said at the time that it appeared to me to be mean-minded and vindictive and I repeat it now. The idea that the poor would be protected in a society where all the independent agencies who attempt to vindicate their rights are being hamstrung is a joke. It is a reflection on us, on the media, and on the governing party, that the Taoiseach could get away with that extraordinary assertion that there was no particular way in which one could see the poor carrying the burden of the cutbacks in public expenditure. The truth is that virtually nobody else has carried the burden of the cutbacks in public expenditure. Other people have been inconvenienced by the cutbacks, that I accept. I have been inconvenienced, the Members of this House, people in jobs, and people in houses have been inconvenienced but the only ones who have suffered from the cutbacks in public expenditure, who have suffered because they see the difference in their dignity, they see the difference in their standard of living in terms of basic commodities like health, education, housing, income and food, are the poor. That is the difference.

The idea that the burden is carried equally when some of us suffer an inconvenience while others suffer a gap in the fundamental needs of life, the idea that it is an equal burden because they take £2 off me and £2 off somebody on £35 a week is a joke. That is not carrying the burden equally. We have a society in which the economists say we have this extraordinary position where everything is taxed except those things that cannot move out of the country, where we tax the income of people who are employed and, if they do not like it, they can move. We tax goods and if the people do not like that they can smuggle them in but we do not tax property, we do not tax capital and we do not tax wealth which are precisely the things that nobody can move out of the country. That comes from a Government who claim not to be discriminating against the poor. They may not be discriminating against the poor as consciously as they are discriminating in favour of the rich but the outcome is exactly the same. The wealthy, the affluent, the powerful are protected, are cossetted, are rubbed up the right way.

We have now a culture of affluence, a culture of wealth in our society, where the vulgar display of wealth is something to be encouraged, something to be approved of. It is regarded as the sign of success, of enterprise and of achievement. We are now moving from the idea where vulgar displays of wealth and affluence were regarded as precisely that to a position of beginning to nod, approve and encourage these because they are supposed to be the signs of wealth and affluence. A society which adopts that as the criterion to measure its development is a society which has already discriminated against the poor, which has already judged the poor. That is the underlying philosophy.

The underlying philosophy, as The Irish Times said during the October crash, is based on the satisfying of the perceptions of the financial markets. The Irish Times said, quite perceptively at the time that two things motivate the financial marketplace: one is greed and the other is fear. If that statement had come from me it could be dismissed as left wing rhetoric but that was from an editorial in The Irish Times. Whatever The Irish Times was 20 years ago, or ten years ago, it is not now a left wing journal. I find it extraordinary that the whole of our country's economic strategy is based on developing an economic strategy which meets the demands of the financial marketplace and the financial marketplace is based on two things, greed and fear. Our society's economic strategy is based on satisfying the greed and the fear of the financial markets. That is most regrettable and that is why, inevitably, poor people will be the victims of what is going on. We cannot simultaneously satisfy the greed and the fear of the financial markets and satisfy the basic needs of the poor because satisfying the basic needs of the poor will produce an inevitable response in terms of the greed and fear of the rich.

Therefore, we give in to the rich and the powerful and in the process the poor are the victims. That is the most regrettable part of the present strategy. It is not permitted for me to talk about taxation on this motion but I would simply say there is considerable and increasingly well documented evidence that there are other remedies in terms of dealing with public expenditure. There is an increasing volume of information on that. Most of it stayed buried up until about three or four months ago but it comes to light as more and more people begin to wonder about what is going on. I do think at this stage that the idea that there is no alternative ought to be dismissed. The risks involved in various strategies are what we should be talking about.

I do not propose to say much more because many Members want to speak. It needs to be said, and it will continue to be said by myself, that what has been done in the past 12 months, and the greater dose of it that we are going to see in the next 12 months, is nothing less than the most concerted and best organised attack on the welfare, the housing conditions, the health conditions, the education conditions and the job opportunities of the poorest in our society. It is being done, sadly, by a party who used to build their strengths on their concerns for those people and who used to build their strength on a commitment to those people. That is part of the big tragedy of the past nine or ten months.

Perhaps, there were things that had to be done but many of the things that were done were not done because of financial constraints. Cutting back on the Combat Poverty Agency, on the National Social Service Board, on the Office of the Ombudsman, were not products of financial constraints. They were products of a strategy to quieten the poor, to shut them up, to effectively prevent them from complaining as their services deteriorated. They do not have the resources to take legal action. They do not have the resources to interest the media. They can only use the agencies that are available to them and those agencies are hamstrung. That is why it is becoming clear to me that, at the back of this strategy of cutbacks, lies the hand of not just a political party, or a Government Department, but of certain extremely influential economists who boast about the fact that they have been consulted, boast about the fact that they have had a major say in how cutbacks should be implemented and boast about the psychology which underlies those cutbacks. Anybody who wants to read more should read the reports in The Irish Times on the economic workshop meeting in Kenmare and they will see what I am talking about.

We are not talking about some sort of inevitable housekeeping of our finances. We are talking about an ideology and a philosophy and that ideology is anti-poor and pro-rich. That is why it is so regrettable that the Government's assault on the poor and the under-privileged has been so easily buried by the media because so few people, either in politics or in the media, have bothered to study in detail what is going on.

The Minister for Finance in his opening address when introducing the Bill on 18 December described 1987 as a good year. I share that view. Could I just pick up a point made there by Senator Brendan Ryan who mentioned what I would interpret as the economic ideology of the Government? Fianna Fáil could never be accused of being strong on economic ideology. That is not intended to be a criticism but rather that they have faced in a practical and pragmatic way the issues of the day and tried to tackle them in that fashion. The reality, of course, is that we now live in the harsh, tough new world of the late eighties. The heady days of growth in the sixties and seventies are now no longer available to us. From what I hear at many levels and in many places, there is a widespread understanding of the key importance of the state of the public finances.

The tough and difficult cuts in public expenditure taken by the Government are seen for the most part as necessary by most people. Putting the public finances on a sound footing is vital to everything that we, as a people, aspire to. Confidence is, obviously, an essential ingredient to international recovery and to real economic growth. The Government's determination to manage the public finances, to attack the stubbornly high level of national debt, and to try to reduce the stubbornly high current budget deficit are very much steps in the right direction in creating the climate and confidence for economic growth which is what we all aspire to and wish to return to as soon as possible.

The action which the Government have taken on the public finances since taking office last March represent an explicit demonstration of leadership. The important difference between the results we have seen in the outturn for the end of 1987 and the years under the previous Government is that we now see practical evidence, encouraging results, of what the Government have been doing. It is very obvious from the end of year Exchequer returns that the Government have, indeed, taken charge of the economy. For example, the current budget deficit for 1987 shows that the outturn is £20 million below the very tight target set in the March budget by the Fianna Fáil Government. The overall Exchequer borrowing for capital and current expenditure was £72 million below the budget target and almost £360 million below the corresponding figure for 1986. They are key results and they are an important encouragement showing that the harsh cuts are actually producing results in tackling the central problems of the level of the debt and day to day, current expenditure.

Political leadership today must forget about short term goals and gains and take the necessary action to deal with the new world of the late eighties. Already there is evidence that confidence is returning and this has been facilitated by a reduction in Exchequer borrowing, as I have just said, and by the emphasis that has been placed by the Government on attracting funds back to the country. The tough, indeed radical action taken on the public finances by the Government since taking office last March has made a direct contribution to the reduction of interest rates. Falling interest rates are obviously necessary to create the climate for investment, making capital cheaper and encouraging people to invest. Furthermore, since the outturn for 1987, when those results were published, interest rates have fallen that much further.

Senator Brendan Ryan talked about equity, or lack of it, in relation to the cuts. The cuts, resulting in savings since last March, were made right across the board. We do not like them. Who likes cuts? Who likes cuts in services of various kinds? What has made them acceptable, and why a consensus has developed in favour of the cuts, harsh though they are, is that the pain has been spread across the board. There is, however, one important exception in relation to the spread of the cuts and that is in the social welfare area. I reject the claim by Senator Brendan Ryan that the cuts made by the Govern— ment are a calculated assault on the poor. He conceded that in the past Fianna Fáil have been a party of concern for the less well-off and, indeed, compassion over many decades. They are still very much that way, as I know as a member of the parliamentary party. The reality is that if we are to achieve higher levels of support for social welfare, in addition to the rate of inflation which is quite an achievement in itself, we need the resources to do so. Obviously, the amount that can be expended on social welfare has been facilitated by the resolute action of the Government in tackling abuses in the social welfare area. That has brought in a number of millions of pounds which can now be channelled in order to maintain real levels of social welfare.

Again, in his speech on 18 December the Minister for Finance made a lengthy reference to the Programme for National Recovery. Despite criticisms in certain quarters, this three year programme which was drawn up and based on consensus in consultation with the social partners was indeed a significant achievement and agreement. Unlike its two predecessors, The Way Forward in 1972 and Building on Reality in 1984 which were prepared by successive Governments acting alone, we now have a programme to which all the social partners committed themselves. Clearly this augurs well for its implementation in the strict sense over the three-year period.

The programme covers a range of issues including pay which is obviously a very important component. It also covers a number of non-pay issues. It was concluded without deflecting the single-minded determination of the Government to restore order in the public finances. The key element of the programme is the public service pay agreement. I want to stress this element because pay is of critical importance as nearly half Exchequer expenditure is on pay. At the outset of the pay agreement provision is made for a pay pause of six months and then there are modest annual pay increases of 2.5 per cent over the next three years. It does, however, include provision for tax concessions and, like many others, I look forward to the budget next week to see the first increment of the tax concessions. This is important in the context of the pay provisions because it should mean, with the tax concessions, that most people will be able to maintain their standard of pay and their standard of living. A further feature of the programme is that the trade unions undertake in it not to engage in industrial action in pursuit of claims, and this should make a major contribution to industrial peace.

I hope the realism, as demonstrated in the negotiations and in their conclusion, will continue in the three years ahead. It is essential, obviously, that the pay terms of the agreement are strictly adhered to and, therefore, the agreement needs to be carefully monitored. I emphasise this because public service pay for 1986 under the previous Government exceeded the target in the Coalition proposals in Building on Reality by £127 million. This was largely responsible for the massive overrun on the current budget deficit in that year. Therefore, strict monitoring and control of pay is central, indeed vital, to the achievement of Government objectives. Care is, therefore, required to ensure that only the pay terms of the agreement are awarded. There is no point in drawing up an agreement if the targets are seriously overshot.

The modest but realistic pay increases in the programme must lead to an improvement in our international competitiveness. I was very encouraged by the speech of the Minister for Finance on 18 December and by the speech of the Minister of State yesterday showing that exports are thriving. They are up very substantially, especially in the electronics area. Perhaps more encouraging is that our indigenous industry in areas like textiles and clothing is also doing well. That has been the weak link, as it were, in export performance but the increase in the level of exports by indigenous industry has continued to improve during 1987.

We are not permitted to talk about taxation in this debate. Senator Ryan mentioned that taxation sources should be sought elsewhere. Taxation levels are excessive. We all feel the pain of taxation. The reason expenditure has been tackled in such a radical and, I suggest, imaginative way, is really that no more tax can be raised at this point, especially from the PAYE sector.

Senator Brendan Ryan also talked about vulgar displays of wealth. It seems to me in the late eighties that very few people can afford to have that kind of wealth, vulgar or otherwise. It sounds more like 20 years ago when people had that extra surplus, as it were, through the fruits of economic growth but which is not available at present.

There is provision in the Programme for National Recovery for tax concessions of £225 million over the next three years. The Government have already allocated additional resources to improve the system of tax collection and enforcement. This is often an area of criticism by those who feel hard pressed under the taxation system.

All I want to do, a Chathaoirligh, is to make these few brief points. Perhaps I could summarise what I have been saying as follows. The restoration of order in the public finances is a prerequisite for national recovery. The Government have faced this challenge with courage — and it did require it — and determination by taking charge of the management of the economy. There has been a positive response to these policies in that there is clear evidence that confidence, which is vital for investment and economic growth, is slowly but surely returning to the country. Despite the severity of the cuts in places there is, I believe, widespread support for the general thrust of Government policy.

The Programme for National Recovery, which includes a public service pay agreement, is a document based on consensus and that augurs well for its implementation. The many proposals in the programme are particularly important because pay represents almost half of Exchequer expenditure. The pay terms of 2.5 per cent per annum preceded by the six months' pay pause combined with the tax concessions of £225 million over three years will mean that purchasing power, so important to employees, will be maintained in the period concerned. Like everybody in the country I look forward eagerly to the Budget Statement next week to see what figure will be allocated to tax reduction from the agreed projected £225 million for the three year period.

In conclusion, therefore, I submit that the Government are doing their duty. They are doing well: they are doing a good job. This duty requires tough and difficult but fair decisions which must continue to be taken in the national interest to get this country back on the rails to prosperity in the future.

I am calling Senator McDonald. I want to thank Senator Harte who will be the next speaker. I appreciate he has been here since early yesterday but I want Senator McDonald to come in because he has then to take the Chair.

I am glad of the opportunity to make a few points on this important annual debate in the House. First, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance in his opening speech yesterday said that 1987 was a good year and my colleague, Senator Brian Hillery, supported that claim this morning. I would like to say that 1987 was a difficult year for many people. People might like to think that perhaps Halley's comet influenced things here last year, and I am convinced that something had a strong influence on the present Government which made them change course with such vengeance once they were elected. I am one of the democrats who think that once a Government are elected they should be allowed to get on with their policies; be they the policies they were advocating before the election or not, once they set out on their post-election policies they should be left at it for a couple of years and be judged on the results.

At the beginning of another year it is difficult to know what to say or advocate. Did the general public receive any recommendation from the Oireachtas? It is one thing to pose questions but it is tantamount to political suicide to encourage or speak in favour of some of the policies being pursued by the present Government. However, it is clear that our country cannot continue to enjoy a standard of services which in most areas cost greatly in excess of what our taxpayers and the economy in general can support or afford.

What is wrong with our educational system? We compare very favourably on so many counts with any of the other countries in the EC or the developed world, but what is wrong with our system here that has produced generations of citizens, a high proportion of them dedicated to ripping off the State in one way or another? Perhaps it is unfair to say that about the educational system because people might think it was implied that we are talking about the sectoral interests of teachers or whatever, but there must be something inherently wrong in that after so many years of independence people see the State itself not as something they want to support and contribute to but as something there for the milking.

In the general melee of the cutbacks and reorganisation, agricultural problems for some inexplicit reason have been lost. That does not mean that all is well in that sector of our economy. As a matter of fact, over the Christmas period — which this year was very quiet and restful and with the weather so mild there was no great hassle on anyone — I came across a quotation:

We trained hard. But it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganised.

I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation.

That was not said about the present Government, even with respect to the demolition of ACOT or the amalgamation with ACOT and An Foras Talúntais. It was a quotation from Caius Petronius in 66 AD, so seemingly things do not change that much. That quotation seemed to fit very nicely as a description of the mayhem and confusion in the agricultural advisory and research services at present.

The proposed cutback in ACOT and the abolition of the county committees of agriculture has been sudden and has left a void that I presume will be eventually taken up by the private sector. The Minister for Agriculture's handling of An Foras Taluntáis, the agricultural institute, gives me personally great regret. In the 25 or 30 years of that organisation's existence they have carved out for themselves a niche in the international family of research institutes and they are recognised and respected, especially across Europe. I cannot understand why the Government are not just content with reducing their budget by 40 per cent, a devastating blow on any institute or organisation. To take from them their name as well and replace it with a name that I last heard when I was going to school 30 or 40 years ago when we were learning Christian doctrine is a nonsense considering the work and expertise this institute have built up.

Surely it is not possible to face the future with such a strong agricultural sector in our economy without the benefit of continuing agricultural research into viruses and strains of agricultural diseases or the development of new species of plants and seeds. It leaves our entire agricultural economy very vulnerable, and surely we cannot expect our competitors in the other EC countries to be able to pick up the deficit we are inflicting on ourselves.

The agricultural institute have served agriculture, the land and the people very well, and I hope the Minister for Agriculture will have a rethink before he deprives them of their name and reputation in the proposed changes. We will have an opportunity of dealing at length with that when the proposed new legislation comes before the House.

I read during Christmas about the Commission of the European Communities proposing a new voluntary set aside land programme. Our Minister has not said what our attitude is going to be to that proposal, or at least if he has I have missed it. One of the problems of fallowing land is land erosion and on the other hand, weed infestation. It will not be a good situation for any farmer, even a farmer who decides he is going to continue on in full agricultural production, if his next door neighbour decides to avail of the set aside land grants and leave his land idle, because the farmer continuing in production will be infested with the weed seeds which will blow with the breezes over his hedge. A serious disadvantage to fallow without growth cover is nitrogen bleaching of the soil and hence more pollution, so that in a strict sense all fallow by tillage or chemicals will cause erosion, and in my view, cover crops are necessary.

I ask that our Government take a serious look at endeavouring to replace this voluntary set aside land programme by encouraging farmers to produce alternative energy crops. If we were to produce an energy product such as rapeseed oil with its by-product which could replace very costly imported protein meals, we would not be faced with the problem we met in 1974 for instance, when due to a shortage in the US, the price of the soya bean trebled with an extraordinary effect on the agricultural economy here. I hope that our Minister for Agriculture and Food will put down an Irish amendment to the Commission's proposal on the set aside policy. An alternative energy crop must surely be acceptable to the Commission and if the grant structure proposed for the set aside acreages were to be allocated for alternative energy crops, it could mean the introduction of an important new industry to the country.

It is unfortunate that the only oil crushing facility we have in the country for years, the National Oil and Cake Mill in Drogheda, has been in liquidation for some years now, but I see no reason why an additional plan could not be implemented for the more simplified process of producing for energy oil which does not need the same type of refinement as oils for human consumption would require. It could be centrally situated in an area like Carlow, Portlaoise or Tullamore, in one efficient plant which would cover and service the entire country. I mention that in passing because it is important that, in regard to every proposal put forward by the Commission of the European Communities, our Ministers and civil servants should be in there very fast with a way of ensuring that such proposals can be amended to suit the best interests of the Irish economy and the various industries in general.

I would like to refer to a number of different Departments. The Forestry Commission have been re-organised. I find it extraordinary that the Department of Energy can now decide not to allow the small family-type sawmills — of which there are some 300 in the country — to buy timber from the national forests. The reason they give for this is that the Department of Finance have decided that squares of timber should be sold only to certain categories of taxpayers. I find that absolutely amazing.

There are many small family-run sawmills serving local communities in every county and the only place they can get their raw material is from the forests around the country. It is nonsense if the foresters or the Department refuse to sell them timber just because they do not fall into certain tax categories. As well as that, it gives the illusion that the Department now have decided to deal only with certain best favoured multinational empires who want to have a complete monopoly of the timber industry.

I hope the Minister for Finance clears this problem with his colleague in the Department of Energy because it is absolutely intolerable to think that the State services can be fixed in this regard.

Debate adjourned.
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