It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1, 2 and 4. We will take the Committee and Report Stages of Item No. 1 and, on Items Nos. 2 and 4, the Second Stage of both Bills will be taken together but they will be voted on separately.
Order of Business.
We are happy about the Order of Business as outlined. I wonder in view of the unfortunate remarks made last week by Senator Lydon has he reconsidered his position and does he wish to make a statement to the House?
I will not have any further discussion on that. It is over and done with as far as I am concerned.
I do not think it can be over and done with. It was a most unfortunate remark and it merits a statement from the Senator.
I will consider it. I have ruled on it. It is over since last week as far as I am concerned.
With great respect, I cannot accept that an incident is over which has the gravest implictions for people's proper allegiances in this State. We are entitled to now whether Senator Lydon's expression for support for the IRA are shared by his party.
The Senator is out of order.
We are entitled to know if Senator Lanigan proposes to dissociate himself from Senator Lydon's remark——
The Senator is out of order. He is not entitled to know——
We are entitled to know. Will the Fianna Fáil Party explicitly dissociate themselves from his subversive remarks? We are entitled to know why is Senator Lydon sitting on the benches in Seanad Éireann——
Will Senator Murphy resume his seat?
(Interruptions.)
The order of Business is before the House. Items Nos. 1, 2——
——otherwise we will have to suspect your ruling.
I am afraid you will have to withdraw that last remark.
If I am allowed to raise a legitimate and serious point on last week's business, I certainly will withdraw that remark.
I want to raise two issues; one is dealing with the Companies Bill and I raise that matter once again. The Bill was dealt with last week and it was my understanding that it would be dealt with this week, next week and every other week until such time as it was completed. At this stage the sections which remain to be done have been dealt with by the Department and are ready to be taken. The only reason they are not being taken this week is that they are not ordered on the Order of Business. That is disgraceful. It is legislation that we badly need and I am of the view that we should take it this week. Therefore, I intend proposing an amendment to the Order of Business that we take the Companies (No. 2) Bill today. I would also like to raise the question of the remarks made by Senator Lydon. They are on the record of the House. They are an issue which cannot be let go away.
The Senator is out of order.
The matter is on the record. It has been quoted outside the House and it is time that people put themselves clearly on the line. In the discussion last week on various other issues people were quick enough to——
The Senator is out of order.
The Chair has often raised with me and the House the nature, the profile and the reputation of this House. The reputation of this House was damaged seriously last week. A totally outrageous intervention went uncensored and unresponded to.
There are avenues to investigate it but not on the Order of Business today.
I ask the Leader of the House to respond to this matter on the Order of Business and say whether or not his party or his group have any particular views on it. It is disgraceful that it should be allowed to be there without making any effort to deal with it.
We are trying to clear the Order of Business.
I shall try to be in order. I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business that, before we discuss anything, we discuss the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann disassociates itself from Senator Lydon's remarks last week.
For a long time we have avoided discussing Item No. 7 on the Order Paper which is about Anglo-Irish relations. I now understand why we have avoided it. It is because Fianna Fáil cannot keep their house in order without remarks like those made last week.
(Interruptions.)
The Senator is making a speech. He is out of order.
I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business.
I appreciate that but you cannot make a speech.
I am not making a speech. I am just giving the reasons why I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business. It is very important that this House should have a chance to disassociate itself from the remarks made by Senator Lydon last week.
It is not on the Order Paper; therefore, it cannot be added.
We took something last week at the request of the Leader of the House which was not on the Order of Business or on the Order Paper. I am proposing that we take as Item No. 1 today, the motion that we disassociate ourselves from the disreputable remarks Senator Lydon made last week.
Will Senator Ross resume his seat? What are you proposing to amend?
I am proposing that we take the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann disassociates itself from Senator Lydon's remarks last week.
I have no notice of that motion.
With respect, we took an item either last week or two weeks ago which was not on the Order Paper. It is up to the House to decide what to take. That is why I am proposing an amendment.
Is it possible to have the matter referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges? If the matter was referred to that committee I am sure it would be sorted out to everybody's satisfaction.
Somebody on the other side of the House said it was refused. The reason I did not call a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privilges immediately after the carry on in this House last week was that we had the sadness of the vote of sympathy here and then there were people out in the corridor waiting to call a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which to me was contradicting what had been done here. Somebody made the remark that I should try to have the same respect for the Seanad as other Senators have. I hope that even Senator Murphy in his judgment would think that I respect the Seanad and try to ensure fair play. If Members of this House are not happy about what happened, the matter can be referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The reason I did not call a meeting last week after the sadness of the first hour was that I was not going to allow more publicity to people who just wanted to call a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and privileges for publicity. In a cooler atmosphere today, perhaps we could arrange such a meeting.
If we are talking about the sadness of last week it is dishonourable to have an argument today when so many people have lost their lives. Nobody should take advantage of a situation because of a statement made by a person about people who are being killed every day in the week. This is not the place for that type of argument.
I hope the Cathaoirleach is not suggesting that my request for a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges was looking for publicity.
I am not. Senator O'Toole has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business about the Companies (No. 2) Bill. There are more people in the House than Senator Ross.
On a point of order, I have an amendment as well.
We will deal with Senator O'Toole's amendment first, that Item No. 8 be taken today.
Maybe when the Leader of the House has replied there might not be any need for that amendment.
Some people have taken offence at remarks I made.
It is not in order for the Senator to make a statement.
I have no wish to prolong this wrangle but since Senator Lydon indicated that he wishes to make a statement and since Members on this side of the House have requested that he should be allowed to make a statement. I ask the Chair to let that statement be made.
I have already ruled that we can have a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and if the Senator wants to make a statement there he can do so. We are still on the Order of Business. The Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
It is intended that the Order of Business as set out will stand. On the question raised by Senator O'Toole about the Companies (No. 2) Bill, this Bill will be in the House again next week. The reason it is not before the House this week is the other very necessary business we have, the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, the Radio and Television Bill, the Housing Bill and the Insurance Bill. We will go back again next week to the Companies (No. 2) Bill.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
Senators
No.
I cannot take Senator Ross's amendment because it is not on the Order Paper.
I do not want to interrupt the Chair but I think I am correct in saying that we had an item discussed two weeks ago which was not on the Order Paper. There is total inconsistency there. It was brought in by the Leader of the House. If the Leader of the House can do it, I can propose that we discuss something that is not on the Order Paper. There are plenty of precedents for not discussing things which are on the Order Paper.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
I have made a point of order and a very valid one that two or three weeks ago the Leader of the House introduced a matter which was not on the Order Paper. I must be able to propose that something is taken which is not on the Order Paper.
I have no notice of the Senator's motion and what happened two or three weeks ago——
Later on then.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. Do I have to give the arguments for it? I move: "That Item No. 8 be taken today".
I second that.
Senator J. O'Toole has moved an amendment to the Order of Business and it has been seconded by Senator Robinson.
Question put: "That Item No. 8 be taken today."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 21.
Tá
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- Loughrey, Joachim.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Murphy, John A.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Robinson, Mary T.W.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
Níl
- Byrne, Seán.
- de Buitléar, Éamon.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Ryan, William.
Tellers: Tá, Senators J. O'Toole and Robinson; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey.
Question declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
Before the Chair moves to Item No. 1 this House should put on record its good wishes and congratulations to the Irish football team and to the Irish supporters who created a great image in Europe for Ireland.
That was done last week.
The game had not been played last week and the Taoiseach had not congratulated Jack last week.