Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Feb 1990

Vol. 123 No. 18

Horse Breeding Bill, 1985: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Walsh)

The purpose of the Bill is to repeal the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, and thereby abolish stallion licensing. Under the 1934 Act, entire stallions aged two years and upwards must be licensed. However, thoroughbred stallions which are used exclusively for thoroughbred breeding, or which are either kept in training for racing or used for racing, are exempt from licensing.

The Act which I am proposing should be repealed because it is over 50 years on the Statute Book. The reasons for this measure are very straightforward. The position of the horse has changed dramatically since 1934. The licensing inspection was confined to a clinical examination and had little real impact on breeding improvement. Once licensed, stallions were not reinspected. The number of stallions licensed declined from 1,000 in 1970 to 500 by 1984. On the advice of its breeding sub-committee, Bord na gCapall recommended that licensing be abolished. The board stressed that the examination for registration of stallions — which of course is voluntary — is more thorough, and more effective from the point of view of breed improvement.

The fact of the matter is that licensing has not been operated since 1984. It has been argued that circumstances have changed since then, principally because of the dissolution of Bord na gCapall. However, the fact is that there has been no demand whatsoever from any section of the industry.

Mrs. Doyle

On a point of order, is there a copy of the Minister's speech available?

Mr. Walsh

I am awaiting a copy.

Mrs. Doyle

Continue then. Once I know it is coming I am happy. Excuse me for interrupting you.

Mr. Walsh

There has been no demand whatsoever from any section of the industry to return to licensing and there is no evidence to suggest that the quality of horse breeding here has suffered over the last six years as a result of the cessation of licensing. Since the last time Senator Avril Doyle and I discussed this matter and debated it in the other House, we have introduced a programme for the development of the non-thoroughbred horse industry which I am hopeful — and I am very encouraged by the response to it — will change the face of the industry and revitalise an industry which was unhappily let go into decline for a number of years. In that positive programme for the development of the non-thoroughbred horse industry the Irish draught horse has been reinstated as a particularly important breed, especially in the nineties and going into the next millenunium when recreation and sport are such important activities. The Irish draught has been identified for special treatment. A quite attractive programme of grant aid and support is available now for the development of not alone the Irish draught but the entire non-thoroughbred industry.

I am glad that an advisory board has been appointed, a quite prestigious board of people who know the industry and are nominated from the different sectors of the industry. That board are in place and have held a number of meetings so far to advise the Minister and the Department on the best steps to develop quite an important industry which, as I have said, was unhappily let go into decline for a long number of years. That positive programme of development is by far the most important thing to happen to the Irish horse industry for a long number of years.

I was particularly pleased that the Minister for Finance accepted the submission from Agriculture in relation to the racing industry in general which should be of benefit to the non-sport horse or the thoroughbred industry. Provision was made for £3.5 million per annum for a minimum period of three years, to be reviewed thereafter, for the horse racing and greyhound racing industry. This will be of tremendous importance, particularly to the national hunt sector of the thoroughbred horse industry, because there is no doubt that in recent years Irish racing had gone into decline. The number of race tracks in serious financial trouble around the country was increasing and the number of prestigious races won by horses trained outside of Ireland was becoming greater. We found it more difficult to win races in Ireland with our own trained horses and that was quite a serious matter. The level of prize money for the national hunt industry, of which the Irish people are particularly fond, was a very serious matter and I am delighted that the Minister for Finance made a substantial allocation in the budget in that 1.5 per cent of the off-course betting levy is to be earmarked specifically——

Mrs. Doyle

With respect that has nothing to do with the Bill before us.

Mr. Walsh

We are talking about the horse industry.

Mrs. Doyle

The non-thoroughbred horse industry is all that is covered by this Bill and the Minister knows that. The thoroughbred horse industry is not covered.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McMahon)

Senator, you will have an opportunity of contributing.

Mrs. Doyle

It is disingenuous. It is padding because of the two-page miserable script the Minister has arrived with.

Acting Chairman

You will have your opportunity in just a few minutes and you can answer the Minister as strongly as you like.

Mr. Walsh

As I have said, a number of measures have been introduced since we debated this matter — one for the non-thoroughbred horse industry and one for the racing industry, which will be of considerable benefit to the Irish horse industry generally. This is a technical matter abolishing the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, which was no longer used. There was no role for it and, as I have said, no demand whatsoever for it from any section of the industry, but there was a demand for a developmental programme for both sections of the horse industry.

The decline in the number of stallions, the change over time in the use of the horse, the development of more modern breeding methods and the fact that the licensing inspection itself had little intrinsic merit, all lead to the conclusion that it was time to abolish the licensing of stallions. Both the thoroughbred and the non-thoroughbred sectors of the horse industry accept that stallion licensing will not be required in the future and they agree that it should be terminated.

It was suggested on Committee Stage in the Dáil that the question of licensing should be referred to the Non-Thoroughbred Horse Advisory Committee for consideration. This is neither practical nor necessary. For the reason I have outlined, the continuation of stallion licensing is a non-issue and this Bill is merely a technicality to deal with the reality, namely, that licensing has not been operated since 1984. There are no compelling reasons to continue with it and therefore it is only right and proper that the 1934 Act be repealed. I therefore commend this Bill to the House.

Mrs. Doyle

I am amazed that the Minister, Deputy Walsh, arrived in here this afternoon with two pages of a script. That is the extent of the Department's interest in the Seanad debate on the Bill before us — the Horse Breeding Bill, 1985 — two single A4 pages, not back and front but just page one, page two. The Minister valiantly tried to pad that a little bit and to expand it by discussing areas that are not relevant to the Horse Breeding Bill but indeed pertain to the thoroughbred industry generally. I do not disagree with what he said on that but it is not the issue before us.

Mr. Walsh

I also referred to the non-thoroughbred programme and the development of that industry.

Mrs. Doyle

Yes, all two pages of it. I refuse to accept that that is the extent of this Government's interest in the matter and I hope to be proved right. I hope the Government have an interest in what we now refer to as the sport horse industry which covers every angle of the horse industry other than the thoroughbred racing industry, as it were. I just wish to distinguish it quite clearly.

The Horse Breeding Bill before us this afternoon is a two-line Bill to repeal the Horse Breeding Act of 1934. The main provision of the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, deals with the licensing of stallions not involved in covering thoroughbred mares for racing but for the sport horse industry as we now refer to it. It is just that section of stallions that is dealt with under the licensing of stallions in this. I tried on the Order of Business yesterday and again today to ask the Leader of the House to urge the Minister not to proceed with the passage of this Bill through the Seanad until the Horse Advisory Committee, to which the Minister, Deputy Walsh, referred a few moments ago have had the opportunity to consider this legislation. To say it is not practicable or necessary — if I quote him correctly — that the Horse Advisory Committee should consider this Bill is a gross insult to the wise men and women that the Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy, appointed last autumn to advise him on the sport horse industry. The Government stand indicated in relation to their handling of this most important flagship industry. I consider it to be essential that the Horse Advisory Committee should have had a chance to consider the legislation that is now before us.

The Minister said in his speech — not in his script as far as I can find — that there was no pressure from any section of the industry to consider licensing. That is actually untrue; it is factually incorrect. Would it surprise the Minister to know that there will be a proposal before the next Horse Advisory Committee meeting in early March from the Equestrian Federation of Ireland, the parent body regulating the sport horse industry in Ireland, to consider the introduction of licensing for all stallions with a special section to register those that are particularly approved for the sport horse industry. I do not know what will happen that proposal when it is put before the Horse Advisory Committee. It may be thrown out; it may be accepted; it may be amended. I will not stand in judgment or even give my view as to what I think should happen or what I would like to happen. I will just state as a fact that this proposal from the EFI will be placed before the Horse Advisory Committee meeting in March. Here we are today abolishing the last piece of legislation on our Statute Book that governs the non-thoroughbred or sport horse industry. We had the Bord na gCapall Dissolution Bill only last year, which abolished the Horse Industry Act, 1970. We are now repealing the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, and we will have no legislation governing this most important industry on our Statute Book if this Bill goes through the Seanad in the next few weeks.

The Minister said there was no pressure from any section of the industry. I am telling him that the EFI intend to place this proposal before the next Horse Advisory Committee meeting. That is why I implored on the Order of Business today and yesterday that this legislation be left until after the Horse Advisory Committee had a chance to deliberate. Anything more reasonable than that, I cannot think of. The Minister could bring the legislation straight back into this House and we could deal with it after that date. The Minister, and all of us, would be armed with the views of the very expert committee that the Minister set up to advise him, if they had been given the courtesy of time to deliberate on it. I will go further and say that I think a conscious decision was made not to bring this to the notice of the members of the Horse Advisory Committee, and I have reason for saying that. I still appeal — and it is not too late because we have until 4 o'clock today to discuss the Second Stage; it is not being concluded today — and I urge the Minister and the Leader in the Seanad, who is one of his colleagues, not to recorder the rest of Second Stage until after the Horse Advisory Committee have made their decision in relation to this issue. I feel I am being absolutely reasonable in that request.

When Bord na gCapall was abolished I spoke at length on the industry at that stage. I spoke at length on this Bill as a Member of the other House, but times have changed. The reason this Bill was published in 1985 was at the request of Bord na gCapall and the IFA horse committee. I will not go through what was in their minds at the time. Let us leave that aside now and go forward. The Minister came in today and justified the pursuit of this Bill because Bord na gCapall, a body that his Government subsequently abolished, had so requested it. I would prefer him to come in and say to me that the Horse Advisory Committee, upon deliberation of how to handle this particularly difficult issue of licensing and/or registering of stallions in the future, had so decided, and then we could proceed. To refer back to Bord na gCapall who have since been dissolved and to say that this Bill is before us because they wanted it is ridiculous. I would suggest that the real reason we are proceeding with this Bill today is not because of any concern about repealing the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, not because the Government are terribly worried about what Bord na gCapall, the IFA horse committee or any other section of the industry wanted; it is because this Government have no business for Seanad Éireann to deal with. Since this was something that was hanging around and had been through the Dáil they decided it was not a major issue and we would not bring the country to a standstill on the Horse Breeding Bill. This has been pursued without any reference to the expert committee that was set up in the autumn by the Minister because we have nothing else to deal with in this House. It is appalling that a flagship industry like the hald-bred or the sport horse industry should be treated in this way.

I think we could pause for one minute by way of tribute to one of the greats of the sport horse industry since we became a Republic, the late Lieutenant Colonel Dan Corry, who was buried only a couple of weeks ago. The man would be revolving in his grave if he knew what we are at today. He was on the first team to represent Ireland abroad as an international showjumper in the late twenties. The Irish flag, the Tricolour, was flown abroad for the first time ever over the heads of Irish non-thoroughbreds, or sport horses, as we call them today, and the late Dan Corry was one of the greats on that team. We should do our best to structure this industry and to have legislation in place on this great flagship industry of ours that can take its place among the other countries in Europe as we go into a Europe free of trade barriers generally.

I will get down to a few specifics, having registered my disgust that we are discussing this matter at all today. The Minister said that the procedure for licensing was a cursory clinical examination as laid down in the 1934 Act, but I dispute that. Perhaps in practice that is what happened. There were roving inspectors, great old men from the Department of Agriculture, I doubt if there was a woman among them. It would not have considered right for women in those days, since 1934, to be inspecting stallions to make sure they had the necessary credentials to do the job for which they were being purchased. It was all males from the Department of Agriculture who inspected them. They were great characters who were known far and wide at marts, fairs and sales around the country. Everybody knew them by their Christian names. They would attend the RDS every year. They were men who knew their horses and knew what they were looking for. With the greatest of respect to the Department of Agriculture, I do not think there are many in that Department today who could wear their shoes. I hope the Minister can prove me wrong in the years ahead in relation to that — I am willing to be proved wrong but I fear I will not be so proved. Men sitting behind desks in the Department of Agriculture, reared other than on farms, who have never handled horses, find it very hard to know; you cannot pick up a piece of paper with conformation and various other aspects listed and go out and see does that fit the bill, does it fit the terms of reference of my job, let us look at this stallion and see is it on.

The Minister stated that under the 1934 Act it was only a cursory clinical examination but what was entitled to be done as a result of that examination? First, the Minister of the day could refuse to grant a licence under this Act in respect of any stallion which appeared to him (a) to be affected by any contagious or infectious disease. You do not need to be a vet to decide that. On a clinical examination you can fairly quickly ascertain whether the horse is in good physiological health or not; (b) to be affected by any other disease or defect such as parrot mouth — the Minister will recall the Bord na gCapall stallions of not so long ago — or a defect prescribed as a disease or defect rendering a stallion unsuitable for breeding purposes, again a physical defect. Any trained eye could ascertain that if they knew what they were looking for; (c) to be inadequately prolific. I am not terribly sure, in the case of a young horse who has yet to cover mares, how it will be decided by looking at them clinically whether they are going to be prolific or not. I would have thought that it was in hindsight one could decide whether they were prolific but maybe there is some way that can be done, although I cannot imagine what it is; (d) the Minister could refuse to grant a licence under the Act in respect of any stallion which appeared to him likely, by reason of its defective conformation or physique — the Bord na gCapall stallions immediately come to mind again — or otherwise, to beget unsuitable progeny.

I honestly think that a clinical examination which could decide all of those issues — free of disease, correct conformation, free of defects or likely to beget unsuitable progeny etc. — is more than a cursory examination. If that was done properly by inspectors it would be no cursory examination; it would be a thorough clinical examination. I suggest that it is a thorough clinical examination that is supposed to be in place at the moment in relation to the registration of stallions for inclusion on the approved list. There is little difference in what is happening today for the approved list and what was supposed to happen under the 1934 Act for licensing the stallions.

Under section 23 of the 1934 Act the Minister had authority to order castration of certain stallions found unsuitable. I have not investigated or checked figures as to how many animals were castrated by order of the Minister since 1934 but I can assure the House that Holland and Germany and the Community countries that have positive breeding programmes for the sport horse have this requirement. There is a very strick cull on the colt foals at the yearling colt stage and again at the three year old stage for those that do not meet the strict requirements of the clinical examination.

In Germany there are 56,000 breeding mares and there is a very strict breeding policy in relation to what sires are approved to cover those mares. God help us in this country — I think we are talking about 5,000 breeding mares. In 1970, when Bord na gCapall was set up under the Horse Industry Act, there were 12,000 breeding mares in this country but by the time Bord na gCapall was abolished the number was down to under 5,000. I would suggest to the Minister — and I have a feeling he will agree with me but whether he will agree on the record is a different matter — that the future of our sport horse industry depends on our ability to keep a sufficiently large pool of the right type of mare. If we have not the right type of mare we are wasting our time here today, or any time in the future, discussing the credentials of the stallions we need to cover those mares. If the mares are not on the ground, this conversation is superfluous.

Not only have the Horse Advisory Committee not been allowed to consider this legislation but they were not aware that it was being discussed in the Seanad today. Apart from this legislation and the ill-timing of its passage, the major consideration of all of us interested in the sport horse industry at present should be the EC directive which concerns itself with three particular regulations which will concern all equidae — thoroughbred and sport horses, donkeys and asses — in the future within the EC.

I would have thought our time would have been spent far more productively here this afternoon if the Minister could have produced legislation to us that would safely see this most important industry into the decades ahead, that would see us compete fairly and equally with our Community partners in relation to the sport horse industry generally. Where is the legislation the Minister promised in the Dáil last May? Is that not what we should be discussing instead of removing from our Statute Books the only legislation that governs this industry.

Mr. Walsh

You do not approve of the programme for the development of the sport horse industry.

Mrs. Doyle

The Minister is impatient. He does not like what I am saying. I have yet to get to the programme, for which I applaud him, but we cannot forgive the Minister the rest of his sins because of the programme in itself. He cannot keep producing and announcing this programme, either to the industry or in the Dáil or Seanad every time he comes under criticism or fire. How long more will the Minister hide behind the programme that was announced 18 months ago? The programme was good as far as it went. Having watched the industry for many years I have reservations about the marketing proposals under the programme but I will give them the benefit of the doubt and see how the matter evolves.

I thoroughly approve of the £400 premium for Irish draught foals that land on the ground from this year forward but it does not go far enough. Producing purebred draught mares will not on is own protect the sport horse industry. We need a pool of draught mares. That pool had got perilously low, and I applaud the part of the programme that deals with that matter, but we should go further. Part of that programme was the introduction of headage payments in disadvantaged areas for half-bred mares, if I recall correctly — I am speaking from memory at this stage. With the doubling of the Structural Funds and the cry in the farming community for the extension of disadvantaged areas, under the less-favoured areas directive, I would now ask the Minister to extend that headage payment to the entire Twenty-six Counties regardless of classification. As the Minister is aware, most of the counties where the half-bred breeding is taking place at the moment are outside the disadvantaged areas classification that would entitle the farmers to headage premiums for their mares. The premiums are fairly generous — I think it is £66 for the first eight mares and for the next 22 mares the figure is somewhat less; it escapes my mind at the moment. If the Minister tells me the number of farmers in this country who have 30 or more draught mares standing, I will applaud. I hope there are some but we are talking about very few. I support the principle of the programme but I appeal to the Minister to extend it to the entire Twenty-six Counties. Major portions of Wexford, my own county, the heart of the sport horse industry, of Kilkenny and Waterford are not classified and the farmers there are not entitled to headage payments.

Mr. Walsh

We are working on that.

Mrs. Doyle

The Minister devised the programme and I applaud him but he cannot use that as a screen for the non-activity in the industry generally. Nor, with respect, can he use it as a screen for his insult of the Horse Advisory Committee which the Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy, announced last autumn, by not allowing them to consider this legislation. Not only should they have considered this legislation but we should have left consideration of suitable legislation for the industry until they also considered the EC directive I mentioned a few moments ago. This directive involves three regulations which will govern inter-Community trade in equidae post-1992. These three draft regulations are (1) on animal health conditions governing intra-Community trade in and import from third countries of live equidae; (2) the zootechnical and genealogical conditions governing intra-Community trade in equidae; and (3) intra-Community trade in equidae intended for participation in competitions. I know this directive has been mentioned at the only two meetings that have taken place of the horse advisory committee since it has been constituted. This directive in relation to the trade in equidae generally is perhaps the most important issue around at the moment in relation to our horse industry. There are aspects of it that we need to consider in detail, as well as considering whether there is a future to licensing stallions or not.

There is a divided view within the interest groups in the horse world generally in Ireland on the licensing of stallions. I would ask the Minister to accept that. What we are doing today does not have unanimous support — I cannot even say it has majority support and neither can the Minister. There is a divided view also on the final regulations that are up for consideration, I understand, at the May Council of Ministers meeting in relation to the horse industry. That is what we should be turning our time and attention now to be sure we do what is correct for Ireland in the sport horse industry in relation to any final council decision on Community Directive 89/503, which is the one we are talking about.

One part of the directive that concerns me greatly is in relation to the broad set of criteria which will concern registration generally in the non-thoroughbred industry. These criteria have yet to come from the EC.

I urge the Minister to be cautious. Can the Minister guarantee this side of the House that no decision will be made at the Council of Agriculture Ministers on the equidae regulations until we have details of the broad set of criteria that have yet to come from the EC in relation to registration? This is in relation to the second proposal of the directive which lays down basic rules intended to remove disparities in member states due to differences in policy as regard breeding and rearing of horses. The proposal covers horses, their semen, ova and embryos in the Single Market. It aims to prevent unfair practices and liberalise trade in horses generally.

Essentially the second proposal is an enabling measure which would provide the Commission, we are told, with the advice of the standing committee on zoo techniques to prescribe general rules for stud-book entries, for the approval of off farm mating — I presume they mean breeding — the performance monitoring of registered breeding horses and the use of their semen, ova and embryos. The second proposal also envisages common procedures for the naming of equidae and for a model, origin and identification certificate. It seeks to ensure the Community standards will also apply to imports from third countries.

There is an awful lot involved in that. I will not go into the details, because I believe the Minister appreciates what is involved in it. I would ask the Minister to give a commitment to this House that no final decision will be taken on the directive until we know exactly what the board set of criteria in relation to registration of hourse that we await from the community will be. Do not ask the Council of Ministers to vote in the blind, do not ask the horse industry in Ireland to accept good faith if we do not know what is involved in this broad set of criteria that may or may not suit us or the industry. For example, when we know these criteria, will the Department of Agriculture be able to continue to allow Weatherbys to register sport horse stallions? We do not know that. It has been suggested that all stud-books and registration be kept by the Department, in the relevant community country. At the moment Weatherbys are very involved in registration here and have done an excellent job for a long time. Will that be allowed to continue under the proposed regulation? It would appear to be in question. We would need clarification on that specific point.

The whole directive needs a thorough evaluation. Like many EC Directives one would need a Ph.D. to comprehend its language. I can understand the difficulty of certain sectors in the horse industry interpreting exactly what is being proposed and interpreting even what decisions are being asked of the Council of Minister in relation to it.

The first proposal provides for the approximation of the animal health protection rules to be applied in the member states. We are, or will be post-1992, the only island nation member of the Community 12. By then the UK will have the Channel Tunnel so there will be a land bridge between them and Continental Europe. Do we have any claim to special treatment in relation to animal health protection, in relation to the protection of the health of our horse industry generally? There are two arguments which I am sure the Minister is aware of, those who believe we should be making a stance on this and those who believe we should be treated similarly to the other 11 member states and get on with it. This is what we should be discussing. With respect, Minister, we should be hearing from him what the thinking of the Government is in relation to the protection of the health of our horse industry, both thoroughbred and non-thoroughbred, taking into consideration the proposals from Europe.

The removing of any existing disparities in relation to protection rules of animal health within the Community at the moment will help to foster intra-Community trade in horses while meeting certain animal health requirements designed to avoid the spread of diseases. It will also provide the Community arrangements in respect of imports from third countries and specify the general animal health criteria applicable to third countries from which exports of horses of the Community are authorised. The purpose is plain enough to see. It is to safeguard human and animal health within the Community.

Spain and Portugal have African horse sickness at the moment. Where do the regulations proposed leave us if we wanted to object to the importing of horses from Spain or Portugal? We have not heard from the Minister, and yet it is proposed to make a decision on this next May at the Council of Ministers. I understand that the riding instructions — if I may use the pun — at the December meeting of the Council of Ministers was to dispose of this particular directive and get agreement. It did not happen. I imagine there will be extra pressure at the May Council of Ministers to dispose of this regulation and get agreement. But the industry cannot discuss it if we do not know what the Government advisers are thinking, what line it is being proposed that the Government take on it.

Just a few more thoughts on the problems that will arise in relation to the questions about African horse sickness, for example, and how we will be able to say "no" to imports into this country. The same will apply to the United Kingdom. I know they are putting up the same arguments in relation to it. What will happen in relation to the other diseases that we have been free from but which are prevalent in other parts of the Community? The proposals would not permit us to require pre-export testing for equine viral arthritis, equine infectious anaemia or would not allow insisting on country freedom for six months or pre-export testing for dourine and glanders, none of which are present here or, indeed, in the UK. I would like to know the Minister's view on that. That would be a far more constructive use of our time than what we are at here today.

The proposal in relation to registration — the second proposal to which I referred — requires stud-book arrangements in this country which have not traditionally been compulsory. In recent times since the demise of Bord na gCapall, the Irish Horse Register has been taken over by the Department of Agriculture. I commend them for getting their act together on it. There were teething problems. They ran out of paper at one stage and could not issue passports. That has all been overcome. A reasonably good job is being done and given a little more time an excellent job could be done. It is not excellent yet but it is getting together quickly and I commend the officials responsible. I have raised two or three issues with them. I have yet to get answers to a couple of them but that is perhaps through a lack of persistence on my part. I have not spoken to them since last spring in relation to some queries. It will all come out in the wash at some stage. I accept we will get our act together. I hope their register now talks to the computer in the SJAI. I still cannot understand why the Showjumping Association of Ireland had one type of computer at one stage and the Department of Agriculture had another type and they could not talk to one another. I have faith that the Department will be able to run an efficient register but where does that leave us in relation to a non-Government register such as Weatherby's? The industry awaits the Minister's thinking on that. It will not be allowed under the regulations that are being proposed in the Community.

There are horse organisations that are concerned that they should be allowed to retain control of their own stud book arrangements and that particular interests of certain sectors should be safeguarded. There are certain bodies in the horse industry that oppose the use of artificial insemination. They are concerned that they should not be compelled to sanction its use or to accept horses' bred by this means if they do not want to. What is the Government's view in relation to that? Has the Horse Advisory Committee had time to go into detail on these most important issues? The Connemara Pony Breeders' Society always operated their own stud book. I was delighted to read in recent weeks that at their last AGM they made a big effort to become more democratic, if that is the right interpretation of what happened. They are getting their requirements in terms of covering certs and identification more in line with the common practices used in stud books generally. Is it a fact that the Connemara Pony Breeders' Society's stud book will become part of the Irish Horse Register which is now operated by the Department of Agriculture? Do they know that? Do they agree with that? Has it been discussed? What will be the future? Under the regulation at the moment they have to. I am not sure whether we will be proposing any amendments. I have never heard the Minister talk about it and I would like to hear his views in relation to the directive.

The third proposal of this directive covers rules governing competition. I wonder if any other sports governing body have had a Community directive issued in relation to how they carry on their competitions in the Community post-1992. Will the soccer bodies be all whipped into line in relation to a Community directive? What about the women who cannot become full members of golf clubs? Can we expect a directive from the Community in relation to how golf competitions will be carried out in the future? It is rather strange that the competition end of the horse industry should now be regulated under the Common Agricultural Policy. There may be an area in terms of sporting directives where we could have looked at the competition end of the horse industry. Where in CAP terms or under what treaty is there a directive telling us that competitions in regard to the horse industry are now being regulated by the CAP? This is an interesting issue and I do not know where it came from.

It will not trouble us unnecessarily in this country because our competitions and events are fairly open at the moment. We do not proscribe any nationalities or origins of horses. We do hold national competitions and national classes for home-bred horses and I understand that will still be allowed to continue. The Italians, for example, have a technical trade barrier to the importation of show-jumpers that are not of Italian origin in that they do not allow them to compete at novice level in showjumping and only allow them to compete at the equivalent of grade A or open level on a basis where they receive less prize money than the native-bred horses. They segregate their open competitions — one for the native-bred horses and one for the imported horses. I presume all that will be swept aside. I know the Italians do not like that and they are objecting. The French and Germans also have objections to this directive.

This whole directive COM-89503 which has these three regulations that will be governing trade in equidae post-1992 raises issues of political importance. It raises issues of considerable implication for animal health and stud book arrangements generally. A distinction now exists between horses bred for farm work and horses bred for competition. Forty years ago this did not exist — most of them were bred for farm work and used for fun at the weekends. Now there is quite a distinction in the motivation of breeding horses today. It is mainly for sport and a little for farm work on the side. Once that distinction is there it is very strange to find the rules of a sporting body being treated as the sole target of a Common Agricultural Policy regulation.

Mr. Walsh

On a point of information, we have a watch-dog committee on EC legislation and directives. If you put a motion before that committee I will see that the working party and myself will be there to consider the directive you have in question.

Mrs. Doyle

Thank you, Minister. I take that as a very helpful suggestion. I am a member of the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the EC which is the Committee the Minister refers to and I have taken the liberty of asking that committee to consider this directive. This could be helpful and would be a very good opportunity for the Minister and his officials to come and tease out these issues. I also took the liberty of investigating how the equivalent committee in the House of Commons view it because in horse competition generally there is a lot of similarities between how they operate in the UK and how we operate in this country. For the record, there was not a great opinion of the regulation in the House of Commons. The Joint Committee would be a very useful forum in which to tease it out.

May I suggest, as this matter is coming before the Council of Ministers in May, if it is within the Minister's power that he would ensure the matter is thoroughly dealt with by this committee well in advance of any deadline for decision on the particular regulation. That would be most helpful. Also, we should ensure that the Horse Advisory Committee has the benefit of any expertise they need to fully understand the implications of this directive. I am not sure in what depth the Horse Advisory Committee have had a chance to investigate it, but surely they would be the main body together, with our joint committee on secondary legislation, to advise you as Acting Chairman of the Council of Ministers in relation to the road we should travel on this matter.

The third proposal of that directive which involves a Common Agricultural Policy regulation on sport, the competition end, is rather peculiar and should be looked at. I do not think it will cause us headaches; it will cause some of the other Community countries headaches. Is it a precedent? Can we expect all sporting associations to be regulated by the Community post-1992? This could be advantageous in some ways: it might mean that all women will become full members of golf clubs if the Community remove any inequality from the rules of such bodies. The French and Germans are against section 3 of the regulation dealing with competitions and it will be interesting to know what weight they bring to bear. That is probably the section that will cause us the least problem, even though, to quote from the report on the regulation in The Independent, “it is slightly bizarre that it should be considered at all in this particular way”.

One of the most important functions of all in terms of regulating the future of the sport horse industry will be the operation of the Irish Horse Register together with whatever procedure is agreed on for issuing a list of approved stallions. Whether that list will involve the general licensing of stallions with a specific list of those that are approved for the sport horse industry or whether the present system will continue remains to be seen.

The Minister is probably aware that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the stallion inspections, and they are controversial. I suppose a certain amount of controversy is inevitable. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder, all of us are inclined to think our geese are swans, whether it be our children or our animals, and are often umbraged considerably if some inspector says it does not pass because of A, B or C. However, I think the Minister will agree that the degree of outcry in relation to the last round of stallion inspection at least warrants the system to be thoroughly investigated. At least it warrants a review from the Minister as to whether it is in the best interest of the sport horse industry to continue.

If I may be so bold as to give a couple of examples. This is what we are talking about here today, how we regulate our stallions for the future. If we accept the repeal of the Horse Breeding Act, which is what we are being offered today, we abolish the licensing of stallions. There is a grade A stallion that could quite likely be on our Aga Khan Cup team this year. He has covered many mares in the off season. His own sire was a grade A stallion, a son of King of Diamonds. I refer to Spring Diamond and Spring Elegance. In the wisdom of the inspectors on the stallion inspection by which the Minister has set such store in his two page script neither of these was suitable to be registered. I seriously question the wisdom of what we do. If conformation is to be 100 per cent the reason for approving of stallions and performance is not taken into account at all in proved stallions who have made it on the showjumping circuit, it is quite likely that we will end up with a beauty parade of wonderful looking sport horses, none of which will be able to jump a pole at all. If you look at the horses that carried the Irish flag from the early 1930s to date very few of them would win in the show ring, but they jumped at Grand Prix standard throughout the world with the Irish flag over their heads and made Ireland synonymous with the horse industry. They had their defects, they were not all beauties; but where would we have been had they not been around to represent this country?

Conformation is essential, and there are certain defects in conformation that we cannot tolerate, but I put it to the Minister that performance-tested stallions such as Spring Diamond and Spring Elegance should at least be entitled to have their progeny registered in the Irish horse register. I am not saying we should put them up in lights and declare them to be the ideal model of the Irish stallion; I am saying that their progeny have to be registered in the Irish horse register and by denying them approval and listing in the book of Irish approved stallions their progeny cannot now be registered in the Irish horse register. The Minister and his Department stand indicted if that system continues a year longer.

There is another stallion, John Henry, which was an international grade A showjumper. His career was finished prematurely by an accident which damaged his back. He does have a serious back problem through an accident. In the wisdom of the stallion inspectors he is not fit to be on the approved list of stallions so that his progeny can be registered in the Irish horse register. Without going into my views on AI, John Henry covered 100 mares last year by AI. Because of his back injury he cannot be used for breeding in the more conventional way. The wisdom of the inspectors of the Department of Agriculture who are working on behalf of the Minister is that the progeny of John Henry, an international grade A showjumper, cannot be registered in our horse register.

What is the outcome of all of this? The outcome of it all is that mare owners will still use the Spring Diamonds, the Spring Elegances and the John Henrys standing in our country and we will continue to have more and more young horses, good horses, horses with excellent potential, that will not be registered on the Irish horse register. We will continue the farce that has existed and is now being perpetuated by the Minister in relation to this. It can be handled in many different ways. I am not proposing any particular way; I would not be qualified to do so. You speak to the stallion owners and they want one set of rules; you speak to the half-bred brood mare owners and they want something else. If you speak to the IFA horse committee they will want something else and, with a bit of luck, the EFI will have an opinion on it too. There I sympathise with the Minister, but there comes a time when the industry has to be taken by the scruff of the neck and saved from itself.

Mrs. Honan

Maybe the Minister intends to do that.

Mr. Walsh

We have gone a long way.

Mrs. Doyle

We have gone a long way. The Senator has missed that part of it, but we will listen to her contribution with interest because I know she is from a county where the sport horse industry flourishes still.

As I was saying, do we perpetuate this farce of having the progeny of performance-tested stallions in the true sense of performance testing excluded from the Irish horse register? I suggest we do not. I suggest we cannot.

As I mentioned earlier, I have serious apprehension about the timing of the discussion of the Bill, not the principle of it. There is a proposal from the Equestrian Federation of Ireland to try to resolve the farcical situation and it is doing the rounds at the moment. The EFI will be proposing a two-tier stallion register. First of all, they will be proposing that all stallions, following a clinical examination, should be licensed and-or registered — in other words, that all stallions would have a number and would be in the book. I suggest that what is in the 1934 Act is excellent. Perhaps it needs to be added to; perhaps we will take a bit away. But the bones of that is excellent and I read out earlier in my contribution those four criteria for clinical examination and licensing approval. The EFI will be further suggesting that there should be a special section, or even a special register for those who go through a more rigorous inspection and want to be included in a special register or section for approved sires for sport horses — in other words, it would correspond more to those we now have in the approved list of stallions. The important point is that in this country every stallion capable of getting a mare in foal should be put down in a book by the Department and numbered on some basis, providing they stand up to certain minimum clinical requirements on visual examination. We must put them in the book because, if you do not, they will continue to be used by the non-thoroughbred brood mare owners, their progeny will not be able to be registered and we are making a farce of the IHR and registration.

May I suggest that the marketplace will very quickly weed out progeny which cannot be sold. The marketplace will dictate those stallions that will be progeny tested. You cannot legislate for stupidity and if some brood mare owners use an obviously unsuitable stallion the offspring will not be very marketable and their pocket will quickly dictate that they use a stallion that is more suitable to that particular brood mare. I am suggesting that, as we cannot legislate for stupidity, that as we must have a trace of the breeding of all our animals, you should have a general system whereby all stallions are licensed. Within that you could have a special approved section of those the Minister states are particularly suitable for sport horses. It is worthy of consideration. There may be difficulties I do not see. There may be other proposals that would overtake this one but at least it is a genuine attempt to grapple with the problem of the growing number of progeny that are not eligible for the Irish Horse Register.

Could I remind the Minister of his personal commitment as reported in column 1373 of the Seanad Official Report of 3 May 1989 on the Bord na gCapall Bill, 1988. The Minister said:

It is intended to sponsor new legislation to facilitate the development and application in the non-thoroughbred industry.

The Minister was talking about the progress being made in the development of artificial insemination, embryo transfer technology and conversion and the whole future of the sport horse generally. This is nine months later. I would like the Minister to inform the House of the progress he has made since 3 May, 1989 with that legislation. I await it eagerly and I can assure him that the sport horse industry do too.

I would much prefer if we were discussing that today than abolishing the very last legislation on our Statute Book governing the industry. We might be abolishing this legislation at that stage anyway but at least we would be putting something in its place and would know the direction we were pointing the industry in the years to come. I accept that the Minister has spoken on it before and I accept he has a personal commitment to the Irish draught mare. I support that fully, but the issue is far greater and far bigger than that as I think the Minister probably knows.

I will, if I may, plagiarise my own contribution in the Dáil on the Bord na gCapall Bill in 1988. It saved me re-scripting it for today's Bill. It is the same again we have all been talking about since 1985, on and off both in the Dáil and Seanad, and we appear not to be making a lot of progress.

I mentioned briefly the registration system and what is now being asked of us under the EC Directive on equidae. I asked the Minister a few questions. I await with interest his reply to those when we finally get to the conclusion of Second Stage. We need to know if the Connemara Pony Breeders and others will be compelled to use the IHR when there will be only one stud book operated by the Department of Agriculture. I would like to know if Wetherbys will be allowed to continue to register our sport horse stallions in the future as they have been in the past. It appears to be contrary to the EC Directive also and we must sort that out.

I have also made the point that I would like a general system whereby the progeny of all stallions can be registered in IHR. If they are no good, the market will dictate that they do not continue, that that blood-line will wane and it will not be worth covering the mare again. At least we will know the breeding lines rather than having some of the best horses jumping in our country at the moment that are not eligible for the IHR. That makes absolutely no sense. The Bill revolves around the system of registration in the IHR and of licensing and registering stallions in the future. It is the kernel to the whole future of this most important industry.

At least twice on previous occasions I have made certain proposals for consideration in relation to registration and I take the liberty of reiterating my views again today. The Minister may be familiar with how the Welsh Stud Book operates. They have a section A, section B, section C and section D, all covering Welsh ponies and cobs — different types and different sections of the book. I suggested before and I suggest it for the Minister's consideration again that we should look to the Irish Horse Register and consider different sections within it, particularly if, for example, the Connemara ponies have to come within that. There could be four sections A, B, C and D. Section A of the Register could relate to the pure Irish draught mare, and the produce of the appendix draught mare and the cross of the registered Irish draught sire. We could keep our native Irish draught in the Irish Horse Register. It could have the same colour passport but could have a gold stripe across it just to delineate a section A registration.

Section B, for example, could be the first and second cross of the draught mare or stallion, the half bred or non-thoroughbred crossed to a draught, more likely to be the half bred mare and the draught stallion but not necessarily; it is going both ways today. We could have a section for the first second and maybe third cross, whatever scientifically would be suitable. Again we have an Irish-bred, Irish horse. It is not pure draught, it is not thoroughbred but it is what, traditionally, has carried the flag of the Irish showjumper and Irish eventer around the world in the past.

We could have a third section, C, for the cross of the Irish-bred, Irish mare with a warm-blood. There was a lot of controversy over the years about the introduction of continental warm blood stallions. We have got to be very careful in this area. The EC directive and internal Community trade will not allow us to be discriminatory in relation to the importation of stallions, semen and ova according to their proposals in the future. The Germans have 56,000 breeding sport horse mares or non-thoroughbred mares and we have around 5,000. We may have a rush of blood to the head and decide that the warm-bloods are the answer to all our prayers and will be the saviour of the industry in the future because it is the flavour of the minute or the fashion of the day. A lot of these come in either as stallions, A.I. straws or whatever other way they might be doing it. If we make a major mistake, which we possibly will not realise until hindsight, which is often the problem with a lot of breeding programmes, when you look back and say that was a wrong decision — it is very hard to be absolutely sure in forecasting — we will destroy our very small pool of non-thoroughbred brood mares — we have only 5,000 — very quickly if we got warmblood influence in most of those good non-thoroughbred brood mare lines.

If we make a mistake we destroy a large section of our traditional Irish non-thoroughbred mare, the type of mare bought by the continentals whenever they can get hold of it, the mare that breeds stamina, good confirmation, soundness and longevity and is a good suckler. There is a mare there that has been produced over the years through natural selection because of our limestone land and our suitable climate and our good grass generally. If, with this rush of blood to our heads — warm-bloods are the flavour of the minute — and everything is crossed with a warm-blood and we subsequently decide that is not the answer to a proper breeding policy, it will take generations of breeding before we can remove those blood lines from our horses. If the Germans make a mistake in breeding policy, with 56,000 mares they can put a ring around 5,000 mares and their progeny and take them out of the general breeding policy for a while if needs be. We cannot do that. We have such a perilously low number of breeding mares that whatever decisions we take have to be vigilantly policed and guarded.

I suggest that, section C of our Irish Horse Register could be the Irish-bred, Irish mare, the progeny of the Irish-bred, Irish mare crossed to a warm-blood. It is still Irish bred but it is not Irish breeding and there is a difference: again, the same green passport but maybe with a red stripe across the front of it. You just have a different colour stripe on the front of these passports which would distinguish sectors A, B, C and so on. The D section could be the warm-blood, the complete non-Irish bred horse, that is registered in this country at this stage.

We can have different sections in our register that will clearly protect the different breeding lines and the interests of the different stud books. I strongly urge the Minister to consider, through his horse advisory committee, such a possibility. Above all, will the Minister have a system that will ensure that the progeny of all mares registered in the Irish Horse Register in this country are registered. Mares that are covered by stallions that are performance tested by being on Irish international teams but did not pass visual examination surely deserve to have their progeny registered. If the progeny turn out to be no good it could be the end of that line very quickly and we need not worry.

Irish Horse Register mares that are covered by National Hunt stallions are not eligible for the Irish Horse Register at the moment. There is a certain arrogance about that decision. We have some of the top national hunt stallions, and being national hunt they are to beget jumpers. What else does the sport horse want in terms of ability but to be able to jump cleanly and well? Because they are not registered on the approved list of stallions in the Department, but with Wetherby's as the National Hunt sires, the progeny of that cross is ineligible for our Irish Horse Register. That needs urgent attention, as well as the other points I made. There are five or six issues in relation to licensing/ registry and the Irish Horse Register I have made there which need urgent attention. It should not be beyond the intelligence of the Minister, his departmental officials, together with the vast experience that is now available in the horse advisory committee, to come up with a system that would put an end to the nonsense that exists at the moment generally in this area.

The market will dictate what stallions will be used. The market now dictates that Spring Elegance is being used because he is one of our Grade A horses being jumped on the international circuit. It is not deterring the owners of our IHR mares from using Spring Elegance, yet the tragedy is that the progeny of that cross will not be eligible to be registered. The Dutch, the Germans, the French and most of our continental colleagues, part of the Twelve, will all be bound by whatever regulations are finally passed in relation to this directive.

They have very strictly controlled breeding programmes and breeding policy for this most important industry. We have never had a breeding programme — I stand to be corrected but I have never heard of it. There are over 30,000 employed in the sport horse industry in this country. We have bred traditionally from mares that were lame, maimed or had broken down, or those that could not be sold.

Notwithstanding an inverted type of policy, we have had spectacular results up to the last year or two. Unfortunately, the results being measured by successes on the international Grand Prix circuit have begun to decline and are considerably worrying now. I hope this legislation the Minister mentioned in the Seanad on 3 May last will include a strictly controlled breeding policy. I imagine that if the licensing of stallions as outlined in the Horse Breeding Act, 1934, which the Minister produced in this House to be repealed today and which this party will be opposing vigorously, tooth and nail, until there is something to put in its place, was implemented strictly we would probably have had some major rows in the industry in the last few years.

With regard to the stallions produced for licensing under that Act which did not pass, the Minister had the power to order their castration. He could have ordered Sea Crest to be castrated when he failed inspection the first year. He continued to cover mares nonetheless and he subseqently passed the inspection. This would have been too bad if the Minister had implemented the law that is on our Statute Book and had had the horse castrated. I can imagine the outcry from those concerned if Spring Diamond and Spring Elegance, not having passed a visual inspection, had been ordered by the Minister to be castrated. The Minister has not implemented his powers. In fact, he has ignored the law.

As I read through the Act last night what came to mind was the ballyhoo we had about rod licensing in the last two years. The law had to be implemented in relation to rod licensing; the Minister had to be seen to implement it. People even ended up in jail for contempt of the law maybe they were bailed out on their way to Mountjoy. I have forgotten the details, but certainly people were convicted for contempt of that law. I imagine that under the Horse Breeding Act, there are a number of people at the moment who, could be held in contempt too, but the Minister chose to ignore that law on our Statute Book whereas the rod licensing law is being implemented. I am not saying it is a good thing to have legislation on our Statute Book that is not being implemented. It brings democracy into disrepute generally. I am being slightly facetious when I make the analogy between the pursuit of the rod licence and not pursuing the castration of stallions that have not passed inspection.

Since 1984 the Horse Breeding Act has not been implemented by the Department. In fact, between 1970 and 1984 the number of stallions licenced dropped from 1,000 in 1970 to 500 in 1984. The number of horses were around but there was obviously little interest in pursuing the licensing system. On 5 December 1989, the Minister's colleague, Deputy Kirk, Minister of State in charge of Food, was in the same position on the Report and Final Stage in the Dáil as the Minister of State is today. He is also of the opinion that there had been no demand whatsoever from any sector of the industry to return to licensing. He said:

There is no evidence to suggest that the quality of horse breeding has suffered over the past five years as a result of the cessation of licensing.

It did not. It made no difference anyway because people were allowed to continue to use stallions whether they were licensed or registered or not. If there is a policy it must be strictly implemented and there must be some penalties for not implementing it. There is no point having a voluntary system for producing a horse for licensing because if you did not want to licence a horse, it could continue to cover mares anyway. If there was no material benefit or any type of benefit for having a licence, why would people bother to produce horses for licensing? What difference would it make when you stop licensing horses?

I suggest that some of the very rigorous stallion inspections — I choose my words carefully — of recent times will affect the quality of horse breeding in the years to come if we do not agree on how we should move forward from here. I gave examples of John Henry and the King of Diamonds horse and his son Spring Elegance. They are but a few. Everyone could mention sires they are aware of and problems that have arisen in different areas. If the likes of those truly performance tested stallions are precluded from having their progeny entered in our Irish Horse Register, to use the Minister's colleagues' words, the quality of horse breeding will suffer dramatically in the years to come.

Bord na gCapall were dissolved a year ago, and we all had some things to say, some good, some quite harsh, about that body. One thing Bord na gCapall did well was the establishment of the Irish Horse Register which has now been taken over by the Department. They also had considerable success in the establishment of an apprentice system for farriers. At the moment there is no Irish school of farriers. Because of the nature of the job it nearly always tends to be men who are employed as farriers but there may be a few girls interested as well. Any young person who wants to pursue a blacksmiths' career effectively has to get certification from England at the moment. We need an Irish School of Farriers under the Irish Master Farriers Association. I would be pleased to learn that the horse advisory committee have been considering this particular issue.

Since 1980 it is a criminal offence to shoe a horse in the United Kingdom without proper qualifications. In fact, there were 12 prosecutions in 1989 in the UK for shoeing a horse without being properly qualified. With visions of an Irish solution to an Irish problem in mind, you would have anarchy if you prevented any unqualified person in this country from shoeing a horse, because most farmers reared with horses, most racing people and many of the show jumping fraternity are well able to shoe horses. I presume it is intended, in relation to legislation of that kind, that people such as myself or Senator Ross, who decide to shoe a horse in the morning, people who would not be qualified, would be liable for prosecution. There were 12 prosecutions for shoeing horses by unqualified persons in the UK in 1989 but we have nothing governing it, we do not even consider it. I know the ISPCA are exercising themselves in relation to this at the moment. It is worthy of very serious consideration.

Recently, the Western Horse Breeders group have taken a particular interest in the whole business of stallion inspections. I commend this very excellent group who are concerning themselves with the future of the sport horse industry. I hate that expression "sport horse industry" but I continue to use it because, as a collective title, it is quite effective. They are proposing for stallion inspections that 30 per cent be allocated to the performance of the horse, 10 per cent to the pedigree or the blood lines involved and 60 per cent to conformation. I know not everyone agrees with that particular breakdown of the percentages, but they are the three areas we need to consider — performance, pedigree and conformation. The looks are terribly important but ability to jump will be what will sell our Irish sport horses in the future.

I commend bodies such as the Western Horse Breeders and the Limerick Hunter Improvement Society. I hope that many of the voluntary bodies that became defunct after 1970, when the Horse Industry Act came on our Statute Book establishing Bord na gCapall, would now pick up the reins where they left off. There is a tendency — and I suppose it is human nature that if the Government take over any functions or duties those involved in the voluntary provision of those services take a back seat and eventually let the Government or the Government agency get on with it. There were many registers, stud books, non-thoroughbred brood mares associations and different groups pursuing the best interests of our sport horse industry prior to 1970. Some continued on a little while after it. But with Bord na gCapall at the helm these groups perhaps felt they were superfluous, that their job was being done anyway. Now, with the demise of Bord na gCapall since last year, I urge these various groups, particularly the breeding interest groups, to reorganise and get themselves together.

There is one major problem — I feel the Minister realises it — with any aspect of the sport horse industry, that is, to be sure you are talking to some one who truly represents the broad views of the industry in a democratic fashion. I do not know if there is an issue on the horse generally on which you will get an unanimous decision. I hesitate to suggest there is not. It is the nature of the game in itself. There are very private people, they have operated individually since the fair days and indeed before. There is a lot of dealing and trading and unwritten rules that govern it generally. As we approach 1992 and as the directive now in relation to the governing of trade in equidae generally post-1992 in the Community will be foisted upon us whether we like it or not, we have to make every effort to get the interest groups together and to get a policy which will safely see this industry into the future.

There are certain areas of the horse industry that are still, in my view, under-presented. These would mainly be in relation to representing the interests of what we used to refer as the non-thoroughbred brood mare generally. The non-thoroughbred brood mare or the sport horse brood mare, as I mentioned initially, is the key to the future of this industry. I do not apologise for coming back to this point, because without protecting our numbers of brood mares, which have fallen perilously low in the last few years, everything else is irrelevant. No breeding policy no EC regulations, no governing of the industry generally makes any sense if you have nothing left to govern. It is as simple as that. Every effort must be made by the Minister, and his Department, making use of the expertise in the Horse Advisory Committee and the various other representative bodies around the country, using the Equestrian Federation of Ireland as the unbrella group to put in place a system whereby we reward, we encourage, we cajole, we entice or even blackmail the Irish farmer, who now has one or two brood mares as part of a larger farm enterprise, to continue and to expand into perhaps one extra brood mare.

A lot of thought has gone into encouraging farmers, who are now in the primary production areas of farming, many of whose products are now in surplus, to look towards alternative enterprises. We have heard of many possibilities — agriforestry and agri-tourism and encouragement for horticulture, the soft fruit industry generally. We all have our particular areas where we have an interest. It was even suggested that rabbits would be a good farmyard enterprise, also greyhounds and apples. Over the years all of these alternative enterprises have been thrown up for discussion. I suggest not enough attention has been given by the Department and by the Minister of State, as acting Minister for Agriculture and Food at the moment, if I can confer that title on him, to encouragement of the sport horse industry as a very serious alternative enterprise in our farmyards today.

Tragically, very few of the present generation of farmers were reared with horses. They were reared with the tractor in the era of mechanisation. It is only those who traditionally had a mare or two are continuing with that tradition. It is often hard to get the younger generation, male or female, to interest themselves in a great Irish tradition, the production of the non-thoroughbred horse generally. The incentive needs to be there. I suggested blackmail, cajoling, carrots rather than sticks, anything the Minister can come up with. We have got to do something now, because of the perilously low number of brood mares, to ensure it does not drop any further, that the curve turns the other way very quickly and that we get back up to 11,000 or 12,000 and over as were in 1970 before Bord na gCapall were established.

At the Minister's prompting — I believe he was terrified I would not mention his policy of October/November 1988 in relation to the industry — I fully intended referring to it. I compliment him on it. But it is but the tip of the iceberg, it has not gone far enough. Would the Minister please consider, as part of a programme for encouraging alternative farm enterprises, the extension of headage payments to all non-thoroughbred mares, not just draught mares, registered in the IHR — headage payments as outlined in that announcement in November 1988, if I have my timing correct? He would immediately encourage more farmers to consider the prospect of having a brood mare and those farmers that have the brood mares would make a greater effort to get them in foal.

There is another major problem — the very poor foaling returns. Of the 5,000 mares fewer than 47 per cent produce a live foal. That is an appalling waste of breeding stock. The main reason is that farmers will probably produce the mare to the horse once, cover it, bring it home, get on with the harvest or with whatever else they are doing and they will never check whether the mare has held in foal or whether she ever went in foal in the beginning. As they say in the industry, they will not bring it back to the horse. They might give it the one jump but that is it; they are too busy or get distracted and that is the end of it. If there was an incentive, either in terms of a headage payment for the mare or a foal premium for the production of a live foal which is another way of proceeding, farmers would make a greater effort to ensure their mares were in foal and we would immediately increase the number of fillies. On a ratio basis, you get approximately 50:50. If the number of foals increases, the number of fillies increases; if the number of fillies increases, we increase our pool of brood mares. If we can sort out the mess in relation to those that are eligible to be registered in the Irish Horse Register, we are on the road to getting that graph turned around and increasing the number from the less than 5,000 mares to what would be considered an acceptable level.

The Minister is probably thinking I have talked for far too long but I do not apologise for it. In the last couple of years we have had one opportunity on the Bord na gCapall Dissolution Bill to talk about an industry that is very dear to many of us. The Irish people love their horses. Whether they live in urban or rural Ireland, they follow the thoroughbred industry. Many of them have a daily punt and would know what race meetings are taking place. That know the breeding of all the thoroughbreds. There is huge interest among children in ponies. The Irish Pony Society and the Irish Pony Clubs of Ireland are doing a valiant job. There are thousands of young and not so young children who are besotted with ponies and with horses generally. It is a very good sport; it is a very constructive, responsible way for our young people to spend their time.

There are many other associations doing valiant work. There is the recently formed Irish Dressage Society, there is the Irish Horse Trials Society, the Showjumping Association of Ireland that have done so much for us over the years. There are all of these bodies grouped under the umbrella of the Equestrian Federation of Ireland and from young and old, urban and rural, there is a love of the horse.

We need to give a little time in our debates in this House to an industry which employs 30,000 people. I do not know what the headlines would be if the Minister could announce a start-up of industries that would employ a similar number. The country would be on its knees in appreciation and thanksgiving. Yet, we have an industry we choose to neglect. It is a case of familiarity breeding contempt. Just because it always was, we think it always will be but the Minister may appreciate that may not be so. With the pool of brood mares now below 5,000 we will not be producing sufficient replacements in the natural order to consider the industry safe for the future unless we have a breeding policy in place, with the Minister at the helm, a Minister who knows what he is doing and what the industry needs and who understands and appreciates what this industry could do for Ireland not just within the Community but globally.

We are synonymous with horses, we are synonymous with the production of the good sound horse with longevity. A lot of the warm bloods are a flash in the pan, they are in the headlines for two years but they are gone by the time they are nine or ten years old. They break down, they cannot stay sound. It is often the complaint about the Irish horses that they are not in their prime until they are eight or nine years old but they are still there when they are 14 or 15. What age was Rockbarton when he was retired last year? Just think of the famous Irish horses that we have been so proud to identify ourselves with over the years, the famous Irishmen and women who have represented this country over the years on the Irish horse.

We cannot afford to take this industry for granted. We cannot afford to take the 30,000 jobs that are there in the sport horse industry for granted. We cannot afford to take the growing love of horses in our young people for granted. We have got to make the provisions available for them and also access to the industry. Above all the Minister and his Department must have a policy they can stand over as being in the best interests for the future of this most important industry.

Mr. O'Brien

I would like to welcome the Bill and to compliment the Minister on bringing the Bill to the House. I am not as knowledgeable as Senator Doyle on the subject of horse breeding — but I could tell her I grew up with horses and know a little about the Irish draught horse and especially the Irish draught mare. I would like to suggest here, coming from a Border county, that there were a number of applications for grant aid that were successful but unfortunately there was a larger number, 100 to 150, that were too late. I ask the Minister to look favourably on those applications because this grant is part funded from FEOGA and also from our Exchequer.

The Horse Breeding Bill is very important for the country. The Horse Breeding Association is very important. We do not have a surplus of horses. We do not have a super levy situation.

Mrs. Doyle

We are abolishing that, even though you say it is so important for the country. Does the Senator realise that.

Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Ryan)

The Senator had 1½ hours to speak.

Mr. O'Brien

I ask the Minister to look at the possibility of reintroducing the grants for applicants who did not qualify because their applications were late. I would like to say to Senator Doyle that I am glad to note that training schools for horses and young people are being implemented and being funded. Also, a blacksmith apprenticeship scheme is being implemented and funded. I would compliment the Minister once again on bringing the Bill to the House and I thank him.

Debate adjourned.