Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jul 1990

Vol. 125 No. 16

Televising of Seanad and Committee Proceedings: Motion.

Mr. Fallon

I move:

That the following arrangements for the televising of the proceedings of the Seanad, recommended by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, be adopted:—

(i) that an in-House, television broadcast system covering the proceedings of Seanad Éireann each day from the commencement of the Sitting to the adjournment of the Seanad be installed,

(ii) that three members of Seanad Éireann be appointed to the Broadcasting Control Committee established by Dáil Éireann on 30th March, 1990 to make the necessary administrative and financial arrangements for televising of the proceedings,

(iii) that Windmill Lane Pictures Limited be engaged under contract to record, reproduce and supply a clean feed of the proceedings to Members and to the broadcasting companies and that broadcasting companies in turn contribute towards the annual production costs,

(iv) that the television system be supplied by the contractor on a lease/contract may be renewed at the discretion of Seanad Éireann, the installation and maintenance of the equipment and the production of the clean feed to be supplied under contract and the equipment under lease,

(v) that the contractor provide the technical staff to operate the system,

(vi) that copyright of all material be vested in the Houses of the Oireachtas,

(vii) that the necessary technical arrangements for televising be undertaken by the contractor in conjunction with the appropriate authorities and subject to final review by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges,

(viii) that subject to paragraph (xii) the Rules of coverage be determined by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges,

(ix) that subject to paragraph (xii) televising of proceedings be either live or in any of the edited forms to be determined by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges,

(x) that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges appoint a sub-committee to monitor televising on an ongoing basis,

(xi) that the contractor establish and maintain an archive of recordings of proceedings, for which rules of access will be laid down by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges,

(xii) that televising of proceedings be authorised to commence as soon as possible after the 1990 Christmas recess and that broadcasting of proceedings of Committees meeting in public and not hearing evidence be authorised to commence as soon as possible thereafter, and

(xiii) that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges report to the House on its recommendations in regard to paragraphs (viii) and (ix) hereof, not later than October, 1990.

The motion seeks the approval of the Seanad to a number of recommendations made by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to provide for the televising of the proceedings of the Seanad. The contract of the televising of the Dáil proceedings was awarded by the Dáil to Windmill Lane Pictures following consideration of proposals submitted by RTE, Windmill Lane, Gandon and a consortium of Strongbow-Screen Scene.

As the introduction of televising will involve considerable expenditure on equipment, installation, maintenance and production, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges decided that the best course open to the Seanad was to recommend the same approach as adopted by the Dáil and thereby, avail of the facilities to be provided for televising the Dáil. The only sensible approach, particularly in regard to the considerable cost, involved, is for both Houses to share the facilities to be made available in Leinster House. By expanding the contract with Windmill Lane Pictures Limited to include the televising of the Seanad proceedings, the optimum commercial advantage will accrue to Seanad Éireann in relation to the ordering, supply and the installation of the necessary equipment. Furthermore, there will be considerable time saving in carrying out the necessary contractual work.

The reason I am moving this motion now is to enable the installation and the construction work to take place during a period of recess with the minimum disruption to the working of the Seanad. The motion is being moved now so that formal approval for televising by the Seanad is in hand before a Supplementary Estimate to be taken in the Dáil — I believe that will be taken tomorrow — for the televising of the Dáil can include provision for the televising of the Seanad.

To come back to the motion itself, many of its provisions are self-explanatory. Senator Lydon raised one particular matter. He wanted to know what a "clean feed" meant. Under the proposals for televised broadcasting a distinction is made between producing a signal as a clean feed and broadcasting the signal. Windmill Lane are being contracted to produce the signal to provide a clean feed for other broadcasting companies such as RTE and, in time, the independent TV channel, to broadcast under conditions to be laid down by our own Committee on Procedure and Privileges subject to the approval of the House.

Under the motion a step-by-step or development approach to televising the Seanad is recommended. The first step is to avail of the forthcoming summer recess to have the necessary technical equipment installed. As I said already, this is the primary purpose of moving this motion now. Secondly, the CPP are to draw up guidelines for the coverage, the type of programme and so on and to report back to the House not later than October this year. The third step is to have an experimental period of the House broadcasting for Members monitors. The final step on foot of the successful experimental period is to commence televising itself. I would not like at this stage to put a timescale on the latter two stages. It is not vital that both Houses would commence televising at the same time. That is unlikely at this stage and, in any event, may be a bit of a wasted effort in terms of public impact in that the Dáil is to commence with televising the budget. Notwithstanding these considerations, the question of a commencement time is left open.

The televising of the Seanad proceedings last year on 10 May in honour of the sitting in the refurbished Chamber threw up some technical difficulties peculiar to the Seanad Chamber and not apparent to the Dáil such as glare from the numerous windows and so on. These problems will be addressed. I am mentioning them now so as to set a mark as to our commencement time. It is not as straightforward as a layman would think. When we go ahead everything must be right. I would prefer to wait and ensure that the highest possible standards have been achieved to show that the proceedings of this House in the homes of our people is in the best light possible.

Mr. Norris

I would like to thank the Leader of the House for his courtesy and graciousness in affording us this opportunity to discuss this important matter and, in deference to his courtesy, I will attempt to be brief. It is not my intention to call a vote because that would be rather heartless at this time of the night. I would like also to pay tribute to the members of the staff of the House who are working these unsocial hours with very good grace.

I am particularly glad we are discussing this matter because I felt this morning it would be a pity if this very historic development was not marked, marked in a positive sense but also with some small degree of positive criticism. I hope the development of television broadcasting of Seanad Éireann will lead to an increased perception by the people of Ireland of the value of Seanad Éireann, of which I certainly am aware and have been increasingly aware as a result of my participation in the House. I say that because I have noticed, with regard to the radio broadcast of the proceedings of the Oireachtas, that of recent weeks there has been a consistent decline in the percentage of time awarded to Seanad Éireann. Over the last couple of weeks it has dropped under 15 per cent. Once or twice it was 20 per cent, once or twice we did not get a mention at all except for the bare statement that we actually met. Tonight it was about two and a half to three minutes which dealt with what, with all due deference to the people who actually tabled the amendment, was not the most important amendment on a very important Bill where there were some major developments with regard to an all-party agreement about the value of a particular amendment. It is a pity that was not taken. I am suggesting that, perhaps the committee that has been established, would make strong representations to the broadcasting company and that they would ensure that Seanad Éireann is treated with proper respect and with proper understanding of the significant contribution it makes to the political life of the country.

I have to say that we do this, in a context which is not particularly helpful because it is quite clear to me from the way in which this emerged, — I completely accept what the Leader of the House said and I hold him totally guiltless in this regard — that once again the Seanad is being treated with complete contempt by the Dáil. They have pushed ahead with their own arrangements for broadcasting of the Oireachtas as if they were the only House of the Oireachtas. A strong message should go from Seanad Éireann that they are not the only House of the Oireachtas, they are joint partners with us. It is for this reason that I feel strongly about paragraph (ii) which says:

that three Members of Seanad Éireann be appointed to the Broadcasting Control Committee established by Dáil Éireann on 30 March 1990 to make the necessary administrative and financial arrangements for televising of the proceedings.

In other words, we are simply being added in at a late hour as an adjunct to the decisions that have already been made, apparently on behalf of the complete Oireachtas by one Chamber.

I do not think this is good enough. It is all of a pattern with the fact that we consistently have the presence of Ministers, who, whatever their excellence intellectually are not always the most appropriate in terms of their skills. I am not making this, in a partisan sense. I understand this has happened under all Administrations and there are sometimes practical reasons why this happens. It is a pity. I really hope all of us, acting together, can so enhance the dignity, the professionalism and efficiency of the Seanad that we will make it unlikely that these particular forms of contempt will arise again.

I would like to enter one or two points rapidly with regard to some further provisions of the motion. On paragraph (iii) on the appointment of Windmill Lane, I presume we have the opportunity not to appoint Windmill Lane for the Seanad. I do not know. I would like to feel we had that degree of room for manoeuvre. There is more than one television broadcasting company in the country, including RTE, who could do this. Again, the decision has been taken outside Seanad Éireann and we are simply faced with a fait accompli. I do not want to criticise Windmill Lane. I have had some association with them and the facilities they develop for both sound and visual recording are quite superb and a great addition to the country but it was notable that they did not seem capable of televising the Mandela visit in the Dáil.

With regard to paragraph (iv), I would like the House to realise I am not pettyfogging but this is gramatically strange. It says: "that the television system be supplied by the contractor on a lease contract may be renewed"— I think that should be "which may be renewed", otherwise it does not make sense. It may not affect the legal import but it really is not grammar at all —"at the discretion of Seanad Éireann", the comma should be a semi-colon. Those two amendments will make sense of it. I do not know if it is possible to make them. I draw them to the attention of the House because that is my particular expertise.

Finally, on paragraph (vi) —"that copyright of all material be vested in the Houses of the Oireachtas,"— this is a claim that is ultra vires the powers of the Oireachtas because some of us do, occasionally to the irritation of other Members, quote, for example, from works of literature in which the Oireachtas cannot possibly be held to hold rights of copyright for those quotations. I am not convinced that legally, in regard to paragraph (vi) we can make this claim in its entirety in the form that it is made.

I very much welcome this opportunity for Seanad Éireann to shine in the eyes of the public. I have no doubt some of us, including myself, will occasionally be absurd or a little bit flippant but if it is treated with balance by the recording company, then the people of Ireland will realise that they get a very good deal from Seanad Éireann and that the standards of debate, both in terms of hard, technical content and in terms of oratory, are at least as good as the other House. I would like to thank the Acting Chairman and the Leader for so courteously making time available this evening.

Acting Chairman (Professor Conroy)

For the Senator's information he is absolutely correct. It was a typographical error which omitted the word "which" and the semi-colon.

Mr. Norris

It was not my intention to criticise the printers of the paper; they are almost invariably excellent. Proof reading errors can occur.

Mr. Dardis

I will be very brief. I welcome very much this motion, if I can call it that. I have just come back from Hungary and it strikes me as quite extraordinary that on Hungarian television we could see every evening the proceedings and the voting procedures of the Hungarian Parliament. Television is the most effective and pervasive medium the western world and it is quite extraordinary that this Oireachtas is one of the last parliaments in the world to be televised. Maybe it is an indication of our lack of self-confidence that it has taken us so long to make available to the general public the proceedings in this House and in the Oireachtas in general.

I share Senator Norris's views in relation to radio coverage of the proceedings of this House. I have noted over recent weeks that some of the matters which we discussed, and which I would consider to be of grave importance, got very limited coverage on RTE. Perhaps they were trying to make a point in relation to other matters which are germane to their activities. I submit that televising the proceedings of this House and the other House is long overdue. People should be able to see what our Legislature is about. It is the essence of democracy that they should be able to see how Parliament conducts itself, or at times mis-conducts itself.

Mr. O'Toole

Never.

Mr. Dardis

I realise for Senator O'Toole that would never be the case. Television is the most telling medium and we should have enough confidence in ourselves as parliamentarians to submit ourselves to the scrutiny of the electorate every evening through the medium of television. I hope we can advance this matter expeditiously so that the people can see what happens in this House and, ultimately, in the Dáil as well.

Mrs. Jackman

I, too, am very anxious to place on record my support for the televising of Seanad Éireann. Over the last few months we debated and gave more time to global issues, Third World issues, NESC reports and so on than the Dáil ever gave to what I would consider very relevant issues.

Like Senator Norris, I feel it was rather presumptuous of the Dáil to look for coverage just for that House. It is very important that we, in the Upper House, should press for what we would consider adequate coverage, because not alone is the level of debate in this House as good, if not better, than in the Dáil, but the Seanad Chamber would lend itself to television. For many people who have not had an opportunity to visit Seanad Éireann surely the debates within the hallowed and extraordinarily attractive surroundings would make for excellent coverage. I support the proposal.

The cutting down of radio time given to Seanad Éireann is disappointing particularly when we just have two newspapers covering our regular contributions. It would put us on the map. It would show that we are as relevant as the other House. It is interesting that in Britain the House of Lords got television coverage before the other Chamber.

Mrs. Honan

With my colleagues, I welcome the televising of Seanad Éireann. As somebody who sat on a committee many years ago that decided to bring in broadcasting, I recall quite clearly the opposition to the broadcasting of either House. I was supportive then of broadcasting and, I had confidence in both Houses, and especially in Seanad Éireann. I was a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the joint committee — I think, I was Leas-Chathaoirleach at the time, but I am not sure — and I had strong views which at the time were not popular. I do not know who had fears of broadcasting the proceedings of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Like my colleagues, I will be brief. I hope there will be some kind of monitoring system and that, because it was the Seanad that set the ball rolling for broadcasting the proceedings of the two Houses, and not the Dáil — I would like to put that on record — I would hate to find us treated as the poor relation. I better be careful because I get votes there——

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mrs. Honan

——the Senator does not. That is the difference.

Mr. Norris

How does the Senator award the Trinity medals down there?

Mrs. Honan

I see that Seanad Éireann will have three Members appointed to the Broadcasting Control Committee. I hope these three Members are chosen with great care, that they are three committed Senators who have clout and that this House will get the same representation, and maybe create the same fear in people, as some Members in the other House do.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Senator Honan, without interruption.

Mrs. Honan

There is a strong responsibility immediately laid on the shoulders of the three appointed Members to see that the Seanad gets proper coverage and, at some time they should and must come back to the floor of the House to make sure that we are satisfied.

With regard to my colleagues commenting on the amount of time we are getting from RTE on coverage of the Seanad, I thought — I am often wrong and maybe I am wrong now again — there was some way we would be able to go back if we had a strong criticism that the Seanad was not getting proper coverage. None of us fears the cameras coming into the Seanad. Like Senator Jackman I believe it will do a lot for all of us if we have television cameras here and I welcome this development.

I put it on record tonight that the three Senators who sit on this committee will have a great responsibility to make sure that this House gets justice. We were the people who set the trend towards broadcasting our proceedings when not too many wanted it and we should now, at least, get our fair share. It is not right that RTE, Windmill Lane or anybody else should use the Seanad to get the television cameras in and then not cover the Seanad. The Dáil has been televised already on the occasion of visits of Heads of State such as President Mitterrand, President Kennedy and President Reagan and the proceedings of the Seanad were televised when we assembled in our newly refurbished Chamber. I understand these programmes were successful. I welcome this motion, but I put the marker down to the three Senators and their responsibility to the rest of us and to this House.

Mr. O'Toole

It could be that the reason we do not get the coverage on RTE is because we would be boring, irrelevant and not newsworthy and we might just be bottom of the TAM ratings. I am not saying that we are, of course, but I just voice the thought. Until such time as we order business in a newsy, attractive and viewer-friendly way we can expect to be treated in the same way. We have had proposals put before this House for a long time on how we might introduce items that are topical and suggestions have been made on how we might order our business in a way that would create an interest for a wider audience. Until we do that we cannot expect, as a matter of right, that viewers will accept us.

In a sense, we put ourselves above criticism. Why do we need to monitor in this case? Are we afraid of being ridiculed by the population? These rules, which are not included in this motion, as to how the recordings may be used, the very careful way in which they are to be dealt with by the recording company in case they are used for any kind of a satirical programme or in any way that might show us in a somewhat less than a pleasant light, are surely a reflection on the quality of the contributions. I am just making the point that we may be overly defensive.

As my colleague Senator Norris said, I believe we can stand on the quality of the contributions we make and take our chances in the wide world. In doing that we also need to be absolutely certain in our own minds that if we are going in to meet the media, if we are going into the TAM ratings business, we need to make our contributions more interesting, attractive and topical. That is the reality of life. It is a marketplace out there, as they keep telling us from the other side of the House. If it is a marketplace, let us get in there and give them a product that will woo the viewers.

Ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil an leagan Gaeilge den rún atá os ár gcomhair ceart ar an bpointe a phlé an Seanadóir Norris, mar go bhfuil an "a" ansin: "go gcuirfidh an conráitheoir ... leasa / conartha do thréimhse cúig bliana, a fhéadfar a athnuachan de rogha Sheanad Éireann...".

Having said those few words, I want to deal in a serious way with some of the other issues dealt with here. I believe it is outragous the way this matter is being dealt with by the Government Chief Whip in the other House, who has — I am saying this for the record — carefully excluded the officers of this House, the Clerk of this House and representation from the Members of this House in the discussions so far on the televising of Oireacthas proceedings. I raised this at the current Committee on Procedure and Privileges and at the previous committee as Senator Honan will confirm. Senator Honan is as aware of this as I am, but perhaps I have more freedom to make the points. The reality is that the CPP of the Seanad proposed that the Clerk of this House would sit on the committee organising this whole issue. That was not acceptable either to the Government of the day or the Chief Whip who run the CPP of the other House. I do not know which it was but I find it utterly unacceptable. The fact is that we are coming in on the coat-tails of the Dáil at this stage. The reality is that during the week when this House was being televised on the first day of its return to this Chamber, the Members of the other House decided they would go to Canada to see how the proceedings of Parliament might be covered by television. That is utterly and totally unacceptable. Our attitude should be that we now present a product that is newsy and worth presenting; therefore, we demand our time on the national media, we then demand on this monitoring committee proper representation in terms of broadcasting time for the proceedings of this House. It is as simple as that. With regard to the people on the committee, they will have to be people who will put the boot in hard if they do not agree with what is going on. I do not see any signs of that around, but it will be done from these benches without a shadow of a doubt. If this House is not getting representation, we will demand it.

Reference has been made to paragraph (iii) of the motion, that Windmill Lane Pictures Limited be engaged under contract. I am a realist and a pragmatist. Windmill Lane are the operators. I could say a lot about how they became to be the operators and much of it will be relevant to the present discussion on the Broadcasting Bill. I have supported RTE to do this right from the beginning. I thought the presentation RTE made to the CPP of the Dáil was deplorable, and I have said that to the people in RTE. Nevertheless, I believe that Windmill Lane got it for other reasons which had more to do with politics than with anything else.

Senator Norris made a passing reference to the coverage of the Mandela visit last week. The Mandela visit was to be covered by Windmill Lane Pictures; that was the decision of the CPP of the Dáil. Windmill Lane Pictures were not able to cover it and RTE had to be asked to present their cameras and do the coverage. RTE presented the coverage last week; if any Senators looked closely they could see the RTE logo on the cameras covered over with tape. I also want to point out that the coverage was not seen outside this country; it was the first time that coverage of Oireachtas proceedings in this House was not sold abroad. It was not sold abroad because the people with the capacity to enter into that venture — in other words, RTE — were not involved in the selling of it and, therefore, it was not sold to any other European country. That is for the record as I know it and I stand to be corrected on it. I intend to find out about it. This was appalling and what we are going into worries me slightly.

When the design and installations for this House were being decided and discussed in the CPP of the previous Administration, we made proposals. We discussed at length the fact that the sound, light and camera installation points in this Chamber would be suitable, without any further costs, for television. We now find they are not. That is appalling. I would like to put on the record that the previous CPP under the Chair of Senator Honan, at the time, made it quite clear that all the preparations should be made. I find it appalling that it is now costing thousands of pounds to get that underway. I believe, however, that instead of carping about the level of coverage, we should seriously address the matter of preparation of a product that will be acceptable in the marketplace and will draw its own audience. I welcome the proposal and ask the CPP to get the matter underway as quickly as possible. I support the motion. I hope it will be put into operation as quickly as possible.

If there is even the slightest attempt to begin in one House and ignore the other, we will be leading the charge from here. We hope that the words that were spoken tonight will be backed up by actions later. Somebody needs to tell the Government what we are about and we will have the first test of it when we come back after the summer recess. The reality is that the person who chairs this committee is also the person who doles our legislation to either House. We have had less legislation introduced in this House in the past year than we have had in any year over the past five years. Until such time as the people on the other side put pressure on the Government to insist that legislation is initiated in this House and that the news is created in this House we cannot whinge, worry and complain if the news media do not find what we have to say attractive. It is up to us to prepare the product. It is up to us to insist on coverage. It is put to us to make it work.

Mr. Hussey

I am in favour of the proposal to televise the proceedings of this House. It is high time that was done. I would say a word of caution because I do not think there is any great demand from the general public for the proceedings of either House of the Oireachtas to be recorded. I listened to the recording of the House of Commons proceedings and it did not impress me. The same would apply to many listeners.

We know that enacting legislation is very serious business. It will not get high TAM ratings or anything like that but that should not be a matter for concern. We have to be cautious. I am quite satisfied that unless we are very careful, certain Members of the House will take over a lot of the broadcasting time and very often it is not the people who make the greatest contribution to legislation or to the proceedings of the House who get that kind of coverage. I hope when this comes about we will get more time than we are getting at present on the radio programme. I listened a few times recently to that programme and I was amazed that out of 40 minutes or thereabouts broadcasting time only 3 minutes were devoted to the proceedings of the Seanad. Those who represent this House on the committee must make sure that we will get a fair share of the broadcasting time.

Mr. Fallon

Many of the matters raised by various Senators will be discussed by the broadcasting sub-committee of the CPP. The immediate problem which was raised by Senator Norris will be taken up, I have no doubt, with RTE. That was in regard to the time given to the Seanad in the present radio broadcast. In so far as the motion is concerned, Members can rest assured that there are many inbuilt safeguards to ensure that the House will have the best televised system which will best reflect the interests of the Seanad and its Members. I have no hesitation in recommending that the motion be adopted by the Seanad.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Fallon

It is proposed to sit at 10.30 a.m.