Today's business is item No. 1 to be taken from now until 6 p.m. and item 40 on the Supplementary Order Paper to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
On this day which sees the introduction of some of the reforms, I would like to wish the new experiment well. Unfortunately, a matter has arisen which has caused great concern in, I think, all parts of the House, and may I briefly put the facts before you? Last Thursday the Minister for Finance told the Dáil that this Chamber would be used for a new Dáil Committee on the Finance Bill; in fact, he thanked the Seanad for agreeing to this. On the same day the Taoiseach and the Government Chief Whip told the political correspondents that the Seanad Chamber was to be used for a Dáil Committee. I learned yesterday that the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week had been planned for this Committee to use the Seanad Chamber and that the Seanad would meet on Thursday and Friday of next week.
A Chathaoirligh, you know and we all know that the only body which can give permission for the use of this Chamber to any outside body is the Committee on Procedure and Privileges acting on behalf of the Seanad, and that in the past the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have been extremely sparing in giving the Chamber to any other group. It happened for the British Irish Inter-parliamentary Body and it may happen soon for some committee of the European Parliament visiting this country, but in each case the decision was taken by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges acting on behalf of the Seanad. What we have now is an apparent fait accompli, and a very discourteous one at that. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have not yet met and on the only document I got about today's meeting, there is no mention of the Chamber being handed over to the Dáil for use and, even it it was, the decision taken already would indicate that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is seen simply as a rubber stamp. I object very strongly to this Chamber, which is the Chamber of a sovereign House of Parliament, being used for a Dáil Committee. I object to having the timetable of this House——
You are making a speech, Senator. I accept this matter is urgent.
It is urgent. I think it would be in everyone's interests if I were allowed to have my say on this because the matter will not go away.
I object to the timetable of this House being subverted to the needs of the other House. There is no crisis about a committee room; there are plenty of committee rooms available in the House. There are only 14 Members on this particular committee. Is it because there is television in this House and not in the others that we are being asked to make way for this committee? I want to say on the record that it has been said to me that the Fine Gael Whip in the other House has agreed to this arrangement; first, it is none of his business and, second, he has not agreed to it. I want to say categorically that there is no agreement of any sort.
A Chathaoirligh, I am speaking to you because you are the protector of the rights of this House and the defender of its traditions. You know that what is happening and the way in which it is happening is unacceptable to Members on all sides of this House. I expect you, a Chathaoirligh, to oppose this proposal and I expect you to speak out on our behalf. When you were elected, we welcomed your election. We respect you, a Chathaoirligh, but we also have a right to expect that, on this issue, you will be the defender of this House, that you will speak for this House and that you will be joined in that by former holders of the office of Cathaoirleach.
I understand Senator O'Toole may wish to speak on this matter and I intend to intervene then to explain the situation as I understand it.
On the first day of the new arrangements in this House it does not give me any pleasure to have to intervene on the Order of Business on a matter which is not relevant to the Order of Business and to appeal directly to you. I agree 100 per cent with the comments made by Senator Manning and I wish to be associated with them. The Members of the Independent group feel the same sense of outrage. We have a view that this not only demeans and diminishes this House in a most serious way, but it reduces and ridicules our role as an equal House of the Oireachtas and without a shadow of doubt it reduces it to a community centre. This Chamber will be available for one thing next week; will it be available for a rock concert the following week? One would have to question this at the end of the day. The way it has been done has been shabby, unacceptable——
The old sound bite.
Sound bite is what we are talking about here. The only reason they are coming here is because there are television cameras here. There are plenty of meeting rooms around the House. I would say that this gives sustenance to those who are critical of this House.
It is illogical and ridiculous that the Taoiseach can talk about extending the sitting times of the other House on the basis that he will interfere with the operation of this House. As an elected Member of this House I would like to make it absolutely clear that if this House is operating as a Chamber next Wednesday, I will be here and I will want to know who has the constitutional right to keep me out of it. I will certainly appeal to all my colleagues. I am not speaking as a Member of the Opposition when I say this, I am not speaking as a Member of the Independent group, I am speaking as a Member of this House and I know there are many people on the other side of the House who share my views. I am not sure whether they are in a position to articulate them or not but——
(Interruptions)
Senator O'Toole, would you please conclude?
A Chathaoirligh, one of your predecessors, Senator Honan, did take a very strong stand when it was necessary to do so. I do not want to embroil her in the argument. I know there are people on all sides who share my view. We will go back over the speeches of people who are standing for election who since last October have mouthed words around here on the role of the Seanad and see how this new arrangement fits in.
Could I say at this point, before this issue is developed by any other Senator, that any request I receive for the use of the Seanad Chamber is brought before the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges? I want to further clarify the situation for both Senators. I have received a letter from the Minister for Finance requesting the use of the Seanad Chamber on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week for a meeting of the Special Committee on the Finance Bill, 1992. As both Senators are aware, there is a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges at 4 p.m. today. That specific letter is included on the agenda for this afternoon's meeting and the matter can be decided by the members of the committee.
It has not been circulated.
I understand that it was; my apologies, but it is certainly on the agenda for this afternoon.
I think it is fairly obvious from what you have said, a Chathaoirligh, that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges were simply being taken for granted by the Taoiseach and by the Members of the other House. I want to say further that what is being proposed is, as far as I am concerned, totally unacceptable. I think it is particularly regrettable that it happened today, the first day the new procedures are being introduced. If the reality is that the Finance Committee of the other House want to come in here simply because this Chamber has television cameras and sound facilities, it seems to me that that is reducing the behaviour and the deliberations of the Finance Committee to some derivative of show business. I think it is extremely regrettable that a committee of the other House of this Parliament should be reduced to those terms and that those factors should be what determine where meetings are held.
I should like to ask the Leader of the House who usurped the powers of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in indicating to either the Minister for Finance or whoever else that the Chamber would be available. I think that is extremely important. To my knowledge, over the years there have been three or four occasions where the use of the Chamber was sought and the House and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges resisted making the Chamber available, with the exception of one committee of the European Parliament and the meeting of the Anglo-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Group. I am particularly aware of the fact that it is Finance who are the great usurper in our society. They have usurped the powers of the Regional Fund and at a time——
We are not having a long debate on this matter.
On 18 June we are going to vote significant portions of our sovereignty to Europe and the main agents in this country of the European Community are the Department of Finance.
I am asking the Senator to leave the matter as it is. We will be dealing with it this evening.
Are we in a situation where we must check with the Department of Finance when we want to have a meeting of the Seanad in this Chamber?
I am saying to the Senator that, as I outlined, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will discuss the matter this evening. That is the appropriate body to deal with the matter and they will do so this evening.
Can the Chair give an assurance that the accounts that have been in the national press and the statements by the Minister for Finance——
I will give you an assurance that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will discuss the matter this evening. I am giving the House an assurance on that.
Could I ask the Chair then, for my own guidance, what is the Chair's position on this situation? Are you in favour?
(Interruptions.)
You have been in the Chair yourself on a number of occasions. I do not think you would like it if a question like that was thrown at you. It will be discussed this evening by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I will chair that meeting. Your representatives will be present and it will be dealt with on that basis.
I thank you for that information——
Very basic information.
——but I am aware of the precedents and the tradition of the House and I would hope that you are so aware also.
I do not want to go over the same ground except to say that I could not agree more with what has been said by my collegues. We have to assume that the consent of the Seanad was taken for granted by the Government and that it was done so probably on the consent of a particular Senator or a number of Senators. Despite what you have said about the Committee on Procedure and Privileges considering it, I cannot see how, after this flagrant and contemptuous disregard for the House, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges can possibly contemplate obsequiously endorsing what the Government already take as a fait accompli. The position is absolutely untenable.
To vary the menu somewhat, in regard to the Order of Business, I note we completed the Second Stage of the Electoral (No. 2) Bill on 4 March. At the conclusion of Second Stage the Leader promised that the Remaining Stages would be taken in two or three week's time. I am always astonished at the way in which legislation seems to vanish for weeks on end. It is part of the mismanagement of legislation in this House that we have not been able to complete what is not a major Bill but one to which many of us have put down substantial amendments and are anxious that it should be dealt with expeditously. It is two months since we debated Second Stage.
I would like to return to the question of the use of this Chamber. I oppose it. I want to put that on the record. I do not wish to put any individual questions to you, Sir, but I would say that we are all elected representatives of the people.
Have you given an explanation, a Chathaoirligh?
I have been given an explanation. I did not want to intervene in the debate but I came in early after Senators Manning and O'Toole to explain the position. It is quite simple. It will be discussed at 4 p.m. this evening.
As a result of that will you, Sir, as chair of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges be bringing recommendations back to this House so that this House can decide? May I also remind you of my own unhappy experience with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the fact that there is a built-in Government majority which effectively makes it a rubber stamp and nothing else. May I place on the record of the House the fact that the information that this Chamber was available was passed to the media, without the consent of the House, and that this House and you, Sir, have been treated with gross contempt by the Government. May I place further on the record that if they want a row next Wednesday they will certainly get it, because not only Senator O'Toole but myself and many others will be in this Chamber to which we and we alone have the sovereign right of access. What occurred is either a contemptuous dismissal of the powers and role of the Seanad or an attempt to usurp the authority of the Oireachtas. Had this happened under a former recently retired Taoiseach, there would be all kinds of talk about the threat to democracy.
Mr. Farrell
I am amazed at two teachers making such statements. Such bad example to students — that they are going to defy democracy.
(Interruptions.)
I would remind Senators that we are still on the Order of Business. I would ask them to accept my ruling, which I gave ten minutes ago, that the matter will be discussed at 4 p.m. today by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
According to the papers it is already decided.
I have to tell Senator Farrell that a third teacher is about to express the same sentiments. I welcome the Special Committee on the Finance Bill. It is a good development, and it is a development in the right direction, but I find it totally unacceptable that there should be a unilateral decision made by the Dáil and by the Minister to presume that they can use this Chamber on a day when we would properly be sitting. They have compromised us; they have informed the media and there seems to have been a certain amount of co-operation and co-ordination from some sectors in this House as well. I find that totally unacceptable. The only interpretation I can put on the letter you have before you, a Chathaoirligh, is that that is in the form of a request or a recommendation and that it must go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in that vein because it is up to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House to make a decision when and how the Chamber is to be used. I hope whatever approach has been taken hitherto that, when the Committee on Procedure and Privileges meet at 4 p.m. today it will be left to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to make the decision arising out of the sentiments that have been expressed in this House on the Order of Business.
In relation to the Labour Party motion No. 14 on the Order Paper — the Prison Reform Bill, 1992 — I seek leave to introduce it and to have it printed and I ask the Leader of the House to accede to that request.
I would refer also to motion No. 24 on the Supplementary Order Paper. While certain sections of that motion have been dealt with — we have raised it in the House on a number of occasions in relation to the presidential pardon for Nicky Kelly — section 3 has not been dealt with. I ask the leader to elicit from the Minister for Justice whether he will seek to implement the findings of the Barra O/Briain and the Martin reports.
Finally, I wish to raise a matter which Senator Murphy mentioned — the disappearance of certain Bills from the Order Paper. The Electoral Bill has been introduced in the Seanad and I expected that we would be dealing with it without a major elapse of time. I wish to know where that has gone. There are also the Education Bills: what has happened to the recent colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bills? Are we going to have the Green Paper on Education, and when can we have a debate on the matter?
Senator Costello can only seek to have item No. 14 included in the Order of Business at this stage. The House can only decide on the introduction of the Bill if it has already agreed that item No. 14 is to be included in the Order of Business. If the Senator wants to pursue this matter now he should move an amendment to the Order of Business to seek to have this item included.
I move: "That Item No. 14 be included in the Order of Business.".
I will be very brief. Like you, Sir, I take this House very seriously and like you, Sir, I have been here for a considerable number of years. I hope like you, Sir, I am outraged that people would treat you with this sort of disrespect because in many ways you are the personification of this House. Those who informed the media last week that they could apparently do what they wished in this House were treating you, Sir, with a considerable lack of respect. I can assure you that if Members of this House made similar statements about the other House, there would be a very serious investigation and there would be threats of all sorts of punishments for contempt of Dáil Éireann, and quite correctly so. It is up to you, in the interests of the office you hold and in the interests of this House, to remind other people that this House has a constitutional standing that is not given to us by Dáil Éireann, that it is given to us by the people of Ireland, and that perceptions and presumptions that certain people may have about this House are their own private opinions. The facts are that Seanad Éireann is instituted under the same Constitution that instituted Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann has the same rights and privileges under that Constitution that the people gave us.
I want to ask you very clearly, a Chathaoirligh, is it a decision that the Committee on Procedures and Privileges will take this afternoon, or is it a decision to make a recommendation to this House, because it is still unclear whether the Committee have the power, or if you believe they have the power to decide to disrupt the business of this House next week by calling off a sitting of the Seanad next Wednesday in order to hand the Chamber over to another House of the Oireachtas? I am not sure that any Committee of this House, even one as powerful and as important as the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, have the right to hand over this Chamber to another body which has no constitutional claim to it and that they can do that without the approval of this House. I very much doubt if the Members of this House would subscribe to such a view. It is a pity that the silence of Members opposite — many of whom are jealous in their protection of this House, life long career Senators, and who have worked hard in this House on this side when they were in Opposition and on that side when they were in Government — could be interpreted as consent to the presumption in this House that was made by Members of Dáil Éireann last week. I would like to invite them, either now or on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to let the views I know they have be known vigorously and to ensure that this sort of presumption is dealt with in the only way it should be, that is, with contempt and with a firm and vigorous refusal.
Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an méid atá ráite faoi úsáid an tSeanaid agus go ndéanfaí soiléiriú go dtiocfaidh baill an Choiste ar ais anseo le go mbeadh deis againn mar Sheanadóirí an cheist seo a phlé go hiomlán.
Is mian liom chomh maith a chur in iúl don Aire, tríd an Chathaoir, go bhfuil an-díomá orm faoi thoradh an iarratais a rinne mé go gcuirfí Billí ar fáil sa dá theanga, mar atá ag dul domsa agus do chuile Sheanadóir de réir cirt. Ceann de na fáthanna go bhfuil moill leis an mBille un Thoghcháin ná go bhfuiltear ag iaraidh Gaeilge a chur air le mise a shásamh, de réir mar a thuigim. Ní domsa atá mé ag iarraidh é seo ach don Teach agus do mhuintir na hÉireann uilig. Mura dtabharfar an ceart bunreachtúil sin dúinn, caithfidh mé céimeannna eile dlíthiúla a thógáil chun é a bhaint amach.
I did not intend to speak today, but since it was the first day of reform I thought the Order of Business would be much more streamlined than in the past. We have had speeches on an issue which is yet to be decided by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I wonder about the relevance of that debate. That having been said, now that I have the floor I thought it would be important that we talk about reform of the Seanad. One of the things we are trying to achieve is that the Seanad would be more streamlined and effective and that we would bring legislation on-stream much faster than in the past.
I disagree vehemently with Senator O'Toole when he said that holding the Special Committee on the Finance Bill in this Chamber would liken this House to a community hall. I think that is undeserving of this House. I am surprised he would make that point on one of the most important Bills that will be introduced in this House. It is regrettable that he would liken that to taking it into a community hall. In the past we have had on many occasions the Opposition indicating to us that the guillotine had been used on legislation. On this occasion we have a massive Finance Bill, one of the biggest ever, and the Minister for Finance has now sent to you, a Chathaoirligh, a letter asking that this Chamber would be used to facilitate the Committee Stage of that Bill through the first House of the Oireachtas. I do not think there is anything regrettable about that. It is something that we should look at seriously, deal with seriously and accommodate as far as possible.
Could I urge the Members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges today, given the importance of the Finance Bill, to accommodate the other House? I know this may discommode many of the Independent Members here. Given that we might lose out on next Wednesday's sitting if this proposal is agreed to, could the Leader of the House give us an assurance that we will sit Thursday and Friday next to ensure that Seanad business would not be disrupted?
Could the Leader indicate when the debate on air transport is likely to take place? We in Cork find we are not operating from a level playing pitch vis-a-vis other international airports in this country.
I have to rule out that question to the Leader; it is not on the Order Paper. This is the first day of new procedures, the purpose of which was to streamline the Order of Business.
I wish to associate myself with remarks made on this side of the House about the implied insult to the Seanad of this decision. It is easy to say it is going to be discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges this afternoon but we all know that the decision has been taken already; obviously there has been agreement. I have accused Members on that side of being ciphers and cockatoos, and great exception was taken to it. Could I now appeal to them to prove that that is not the case by taking a united stand on this, saying they will not allow the Seanad to be insulted in this way; then there will be no problem for any individual Senator. I would ask Senators to make it clear this afternoon at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that they will not succumb to the party Whip on this matter but will stand firmly against it as a united House.
I second the proposal by Senator Costello that Item No. 14 be included on the Order Paper today, to see if we can facilitate the printing of the Bill.
Insinuations have been made that the House has already made its decision before the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I am not aware of the agenda, nor have I seen it but I am aware of a request that the Finance Bill be discussed in this Chamber and I strongly welcome that development. Everyone here has on numerous occasions welcomed the discussion of Bills and the implementation of legislation.
Why in this Chamber?
I formally propose an amendment to the Order of Business — that this House recommends to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that the Seanad welcomes the Government's initiative.
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I reluctantly accept your ruling but I believe that, contrary to the expression on the other side of the House, there are more than sufficient Members in the House who will unanimously accept the Government's decision.
It is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges as I outlined earlier.
So much for the abbreviated Order of Business. I support what Senator McGowan said. It would be appropriate if this House were given a say in this matter. I would like the Leader to reveal whether the decision of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be brought here for ratification or discussion; it is a fundamental question. It might have been precipitate to rule out Senator McGowan's reasonable suggestion that we discuss it in this House; I am sorry you decided to do that.
I would like, a Chathaoirligh, to beg your indulgence to mention something on this matter; others have had a great deal of indulgence as well. I remember a past official of this House who was steeped in its traditions saying to me when I asked about the political nature of this House that the Seanad makes its own rules and decisions. That was taught to me as the fundamental discipline and privilege of this House. If I have learned one thing today it is that the goodwill that existed here evinced in reforms before this House, although of a minor nature, has already been sunk by the Government's contempt for Seanad traditions.
I ask the Leader of the House whether he takes orders from outside this House, whether he consults with people from the other House about Seanad decisions and business and whether he takes directions from the Taoiseach or Chief Whip of the governing party as to what comes before this House. I suspect that he does. What we see here today is evidence that decisions about what happens and what is discussed here and when we sit are being made elsewhere; the Seanad is simply a rubber stamp for political decisions made by another House and by other Members of the Government Party elsewhere.
I am fascinated by this sudden outbreak of dignity on the far side of the House.
We were here long before the Senator and we were elected here too.
The protestations of respect for the House from the far side are in contrast to what appears to me to have been lack of respect for you, a Chathaoirligh; I regard your office as more important than that. We are sitting in a room, nothing more, nothing less. It only becomes something more than a room when we assemble here.
As we should next Wednesday.
The Progressive Democrats want to abolish the Seanad.
It is our right to determine when we sit and I do not contest that right. To suggest that something has been imposed on us when an Cathaoirleach has said that it will be debated this afternoon by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is to flout the truth. It will be a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, of which I am a member, and I will participate in that decision.
It has been announced as a Government decision by the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance.
(Interruptions.)
Why otherwise would we discuss that matter at all? The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have the right to decide this afternoon. There are two separate issues here: one is the right of the House to decide the day and time it will assemble, and the other is the use of this room. When we debated Seanad reform here over several weeks there were repeated calls from all sides of the House to have this Chamber used more extensively — to give access to MEPs and to distinguished visitors — and if this room as such can be used to advance the legislation of the State effectively, then that should be done.
The point at issue has been made on this side of the House as well as it can be on the Order of Business. I accept the Cathaoirleach's explanation of the situation as he sees it, and that the matter will be discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges this afternoon. However, I am disappointed that you fell short of announcing that you would report back to this House on the decision of the Committee of Procedure and Privileges. As Senator Dardis said, it is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to decide but this Chamber is more important than Senator Dardis makes out today.
The Seanad is more than a room and when a country begins to downgrade its parliament, they are on the road to anarchy. I do not want to see that happen. I appeal you, a Chathaoirligh, to announce before the Leader's reply to the Order of Business that you will report to this House and provide an opportunity for all Senators to debate that decision. Let the House make the decision rather than the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It appears to me that the decision that is going to be rubberstamped by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has already been made. From the offerings from the other side of the House there is no doubt that they have taken a stand already. I will be disappointed a Chathaoirligh, if you go along with that and I am disappointed with the Government Senators who support the decision which has been taken completely out of our hands. Will you inform the House that you will come back at 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. or at some other hour, to inform us of the decision?
The Commitee on Procedure and Privileges is made up of representatives of all parties in this House. It is not normal practice, as I understand it, for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges decisions to come back to the House for approval——
On our last sitting day we brought back to this House a series of proposals——
That is not correct. We brought back a draft report.
When we discussed in 1987 and 1988 the resiting and use of this Chamber, we brought back proposals on a number of occasions——
You may have but it is not normal practice to——
You will notice that the only people to abuse the Order of Business today were the Government side.
I call the Leader of the House.
Several Senators have raised issues today and I will make most of my comments at the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and various reasons for the proposal will come to light then. I am surprised that most of the participants at the 4 p.m. meeting are speaking before we have a chance to discuss the letter from the Department of Finance.
We have not seen it.
——but we have read the results.
There has been a basic breakdown in courtesy. We have been told nothing except what we read in the newspapers.
That is why I am surprised that, before we have a chance as a committee representing all parties and the House as a whole to discuss——
(Interruptions.)
The Leader of the House is replying. He should not be interrupted.
He is addressing himself directly to Members, he is inviting reply.
I could make a promise but I will deal with what is relevant, that is, the Order of Business. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges matter will be dealt with at 4 p.m. When the decision is made on the Order of Business at a future date there will be another opportunity to comment. Members are now speaking in a vacuum and when representatives come back from the meeting a different light may be thrown on the situation then.
Senator Murphy mentioned the Electoral Bill. The Minister in his Second Stage speech made some changes to the Bill and those changes are being made by the civil servants. I will come back with some more up to date news on that.
I wrote to Senator Costello recently regarding his request about the Prisons Bill, and I think the Minister replied to you. I will be holding the line on that. Senator Ó Foighil mentioned a couple of issues that will also be dealt with at the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges today.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 32.
Tá
- Costello, Joe.
- Harte, John.
- Hederman, Carmencita.
- Hourigan, Richard V.
- Jackman, Mary.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- McMohan, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Neville, Daniel.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Foighil, Pól.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Raftery, Tom.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Staunton, Myles.
- Upton, Pat.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Conroy, Richard.
- Dardis, John.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- Foley, Denis.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Honan, Tras.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Michael.
- Lydon, Don.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- O'Donovan, Denis A.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Upton and Costello; Níl, Senators E. Ryan and Fitzgerald.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.