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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1993

Vol. 138 No. 14

World Trade Agreement: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann recognises the need for an equitable and comprehensive world trade agreement but refuses to accept the agricultural provisions of the Uruguay Round agreement, on the grounds that they impose excessively onerous and unbalanced restrictions and obligations on the EU, and are inconsistent with the principle of equality of treatment of all partners.

Following intensive discussions between Mr. Leon Brittan from the EU Commission and Mr. Mickey Kantor from the US, negotiations on the Blair House agreement have concluded. All EU members states seem to accept the revised agreement in relation to agricultural trade. This stage of the GATT negotiations, the bilateral agreement between the US and the EU on agricultural trade, is effectively concluded and the final GATT agreement must be approved by all 116 countries. The other countries have little choice but to agree to the EU-US deal.

Detailed technical negotiations will be required over the next few months but it is apparent that the major decisions are now agreed. The basic elements of the Blair House agreement are unchanged as far as I am concerned. Internal support for agriculture will be cut by 20 per cent over six years with the exception of the creation of the green box supporters which are not considered to be linked to the reduction of prices or which are regarded as controlling production. The basic period is the average between 1986 and 1988 and credit will be given for reduction in support achieved since then.

Over six years export subsidy refunds will be cut by 36 per cent in financial terms and the volume of produce covered by refunds cut by a further 21 per cent compared to the average from 1986 to 1990. Import levies in operation in the 1986 to 1988 period will be converted to tariff equivalents and reduced by 36 per cent over the six year period. There will also be a minimum access requirement of 3 per cent of internal consumption in the first year and 5 per cent in the final year relative to a base period from 1986 to 1988.

The impact of the revised agreement for EU agriculture is as follows. The reduction in the volume of export subsidies allowed at the end of the six year period, the year 2000, would be the same as the Blair House agreement, that is, a 21 per cent cut from the base period which is the average exports from 1986 to 1990. This is a 30 per cent cut on the average from 1986 to 1992 and a 38 per cent cut on the average from 1991 to 1992. However, the phasing of the cuts will be less severe because the starting period would be averaged on exports from 1986 to 1992.

The media reaction to all this has been most interesting. It seems to be biased against presenting the agricultural case which is our duty tonight. The agricultural correspondent with the Irish Independent, Mr. Willie Dillon, has an article in today's paper with the headline “Farm jobs saved Govt claims”. The article begins:

The long term negative effects of GATT on Irish agriculture have been lessened by the "significant advances" made in last week's EU-US negotiations, Trade Minister Charlie McCreevy said last night. His statement coincided with the publication of the Government's report on the effects of GATT which predicted a loss of almost 3,000 Irish farming jobs and a cut of £41 million in gross farm output.

I welcome the Minister of State but I understood the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry was to have been here. We pressed him for these figures on numerous occasions but got blank refusals. What does he mean by a £41 million cut in volume terms? What period does it cover? Does it cover one year or two years? I have figures here which I ask the Minister to verify or contradict. We previously asked the Minister to do it but he refused.

I will continue with the article in today's Irish Independent:

But the report claimed that the effects on farming would have been much worse in the absence of a GATT deal, with up to 10,000 jobs being lost and output cuts of over £200 million.

That is what the Minister for Tourism and Trade announced last night. There has been a refusal from the very start to give us a breakdown of the figures. I have my own figures which I verified with the IFA and other farm organisations which cover the six year negotiating period. I honestly believe the Department is trying to confuse everybody, including the farmers, by giving figures for 1994. I will give the figures as represented in the Blair House agreement in respect of reductions in agriculture which will be fully implemented by 1999 or the year 2000.

The potential volume cut in cattle and beef will be 5 per cent. This is the agreement. The reduction in prices will be 15 per cent which in any one year represents £266 million. These figures cannot be contradicted as they have already been agreed. Cattle premia will be reduced by approximately £12 million. The potential volume cut in milk will be 2 per cent but the potential price cut will be 10 per cent representing a reduction of £135 million in any one year. The reduction in volume for pigs is 3 per cent; the reduction in the price is 10 per cent representing a reduction of £25 million. In poultry there is a reduction of 2 per cent in volume and 10 per cent in price cuts, representing a figure of £12 million in one year. It is very difficult to calculate a figure for cereals because of setaside but it represents a figure of about £4 million of £5 million, to keep it as small as possible.

There is a 10 per cent reduction in the price of sheepmeat which represents a reduction of £19 million. This is the final agreement where sugar beet is concerned. There is a reduction of 3 per cent in volume and 12 per cent in the actual reduction representing a cut of £8 million, agreed by the Government in the Blair House agreement. The Department of Agriculture consistently gives a figure of £41 million for the full reductions, without specifying when they will take place or over what period. I calculate that those reductions represent a decrease of approximately £432 million in the year 2000. It is physically impossible to put figures together representing the interim years of 1995-99, but it is not too difficult to guess. On examining the figures, I do not know where the figure of £41 million comes from.

An article in today's paper is headlined "Gains for manufacturing". It is claimed in the article that approximately 20,000 jobs will be created. Very few details were given, but the only comparison I can draw as far as that figure is concerned is with the 1977 Fíanna Fáil manifesto. It is pie in the sky.

There was a worse manifesto in 1973.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

No interruptions. Senator D'Arcy, without interruption please.

Interruptions do not worry me in the least. These figures are picked out of the sky. There is no basis for them, they are only dreams as far as the relevant Ministers are concerned.

Imports of beef in the base period at 6.6 per cent of consumption were already in excess of the minimum access requirement for Blair House. Figures of 3 per cent of consumption in 1995 and 5 per cent by the year 2000 were agreed. The clarification on aggregation for meat products will have a positive effect. The reductions in the EU exports in 1991-92 is 507,000 tonnes; the reduction from the average in 1986-92 is 362,000 tonnes. It is accepted that the 1991-92 exports figures were exceptionally high as a percentage of EU production. Taking a figure from the EU production in the longer term of about 8.26 metric tonnes, the cutbacks in production required would be in the region of 6.1 per cent from 1991-92 or an average of 4.4 per cent from 1986-92. The likely cut back from the exceptional level of EU exports over the coming year is in the region of 5 per cent.

These figures are not questioned by the Government but it persistently says that this will not cost a lot of money. It certainly will. A reduction of 5 per cent is an enormous reduction in export terms. There are other cuts. The EU is likely to use 1994 to further cut intervention stocks from the current level of 650,000 tonnes. Of course, the US always expect the EU to give way. It appears that the US expect the EU to reduce its stock problems in the early years of the agreement. Not alone do they want the cuts at part of the agreement.

In the time at my disposal I want to make some other points in relation to this situation. The present agreement is creating a situation where the price of cattle and beef generally will collapse. The arrangements are ideal to create these conditions resulting in a price reduction of up to 10 pence per pound.

We all have unhappy experiences in relation to the collapse of markets. We saw what happened in New Zealand, particularly in regard to sheepmeat. New Zealand exported 200,000 tonnes of beef to the British market, they immediately brought the prime beef to the French market and caused the price to collapse. That cost the Irish farmer dearly and the same thing will happen as far as beef prices are concerned. The factories will drop the price automatically. An agreement whereby imports of beef can cause the market to collapse creates a serious situation and every farmer knows that. It creates an incredible amount of hardship.

It is impossible for the Minister to contradict my figures. We know, however, that it is not difficult to calculate them over the six year period. Those figures come from the Department of Agriculture, I did not concoct them, not did anyone else and it is easy to quantify the losses. The Minister for Tourism and Trade stated yesterday that the loss of agricultural jobs will be 3,000 with a loss of £41 million in the gross input to agriculture. He stated a figure, knowing what the agreement is and the impact it will have on agriculture. I predict the west will suffer greatly as a result of this agreement, because there is no way small farmers can operate a viable holding under this type of agreement.

I do not know whether that figure of 3,000 refers to unemployment in one year or over the full length of the agreement. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that for us. I predict that over the six years of the agreement 40,000 people at present engaged in agriculture will leave the land, there is nothing for them except the dole. I have great pleasure in proposing the motion tonight.

I have pleasure in seconding the motion. I want to concentrate on one aspect of CAP tonight, its effect on small farmers and small beef producers. I have a vested interest in this as the Irish cattle traders' and stockowners' association nominated me for the Seanad and I was succesful.

Fíanna Fáil helped you.

The facts should be outlined so that the Minister can see what is happening and appreciate the main problems in this sector. Senator D'Arcy dealt quite adequately with milk and other problems, the overall reduction in costs and incomes of farmers because of the changes.

All the main farming enterprises in Ireland, with the exception of cattle farming are now controlled by quota systems. Within the cattle sector there are two categories of farmers: those who produce their own calves from suckler cows and those who must go to the mart to buy their calves or store cattle. The letter system of farming is unique to Ireland within the EU. There is already a quota system for the suckler cow category, but the problem lies with the other farmers, those who must buy the calves or store cattle in the marts. This very important sector of the farming industry is not covered by the regulations under CAP reform and, therefore, has no quota rights. It is untrue to say that because a farmer can buy an animal, such as a calf, in the mart that he has the right to a premium. Nothing could be further from the truth. The premium is legally owned by the calf producer and he may or may not choose to sell it. If he sells the animal and the right to a premium it is sold on the open market to the highest bidder.

Cattle farmers who must buy their stock in the mart comprise almost 40,000 family farms which can be divided into three categories; 13,000 farmers buy calves and sell them as one year old store cattle, 13,000 farmers buy their store cattle and sell them a year later as forward stores and a further 13,000 then finish these forward stores cattle to beef. The value of the output at farm gate level from the third category is £400 million to £500 million annually. Comparisons with other sectors should be outlined. Average family farm income in 1990-1992— these are the Teagasc figures — is £13,600 for dairy farming, £4,977 for sheep farming and £2,6000 for cattle farming. The figures show the income on cattle farms is less than 20 per cent of that on dairy farms. Gross new investment per farm in 1992 was £2,778 for dairy farms, £1,059 for sheep farms and £728 for cattle farms. This shows how under-capitalised cattle farms are now. The acres needed to achieve the average industrial wage of £14,000 for dairy farms was 62 acres, 205 acres for sheep farms and 222 acres for cattle farms. It is obvious from those figures that if there is a serious reduction because of the proposals in GATT many of these 13,000 farmers will no longer be in business in about five years' time. That will also be a result of CAP reform.

The solution I propose on behalf of the Cattle Traders' Association — I am proud to represent its members although they are dwindling in number — for farmers who have no quotas, and who are not on guaranteed quotas, is that to correct this inequity, a cattle premium should be paid on a forage acre basis to those farmers who do not produce their own calves. The value of the premium would be £150 per forage acre and only the area of farm devoted to the production of store to beef cattle would qualify for the proposed cattle premium. An increased rate of premium would apply to smaller holdings and in disadvantaged areas and there should be a maximum amount of cattle premium paid to a producer. A provision should be made to increase this maximum where there is more than one labour unit involved in the cattle enterprise and a minimum stocking rate would be required to qualify for this premium.

I will give examples of cases where these proposals would work. On an all-grass cattle farm where no calves are produced, the cattle premium could apply to the whole farm up to a maximum per producer with a provision to increase this maximum where there is more than one labour unit involved in the cattle enterprise. On a mixed farm where there are already quotas for other production systems, the cattle premium would apply only to the remaining acres after subtracting the acres devoted to the system which already has a quota. For example, on a 100 acre farm with mixed farming enterprises — there are many of these and I come from one so I know what I am talking about — with a milk quota of 20,000 gallons equivalent to 23 acres, a sheep quota of 100 ewes equivalent to 20 acres and a suckler cow quota of 15 cows equivalent to 30 acres, the premium would apply in this case to the remaining 27 acres. The farmers opting for the cattle premium would not be eligible to apply for the present special beef premium or the extensification premium.

Sources of funding are also important, and in this year's agricultural budget from Europe £100 million not spent will go into the coffers for 1994. We have built up a system whereby more and more officials are involved on a daily basis in the running of each farm. This is a genuine realistic proposal from an organisation that has seen the number of jobs dwindle in this sector over the last 15 to 20 years. I will give the example of one townland where there were 13 beef producers 15 years ago, with slatted cattle units for holding the equivalent of 2,500 animals. Today there is one producer left. That is the enormity of the problem and the wives of the majority of the other members who were in that group at the time, now have to work outside the home. I call on the Minister of State to realise and to make known to his colleague the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the seriousness of the plight of these producers before the remainder of the cattle enterprises are wiped out — I am one of those small entrepreneurs and if I did not have an outside income I would not be long in business.

It is vital that the majority of members of the Cattle Traders' Association who are from the west and the areas of the country where the store cattle we talked about earlier are produced survive to ensure that there is a market for the store cattle produced in other areas. I am pleased to support this motion at this eleventh hour before the GATT comes to pass. This sector has no support —and I thank the Chairman for giving me this little bit of extra time because I know the small man is close to his heart.

Acting Chairman

Go h-an mhaith. Go raibh maith agat a Sheanadóir. I call Senator Fitzgerald to move the amendment.

I move amendment No.1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"recognises the need for an equitable and balanced world trade agreement and notes that the Government's strategy in the negotiations in relation to agriculture has resulted in Ireland's major concerns being satisfactorily addressed."

Ar an gcéad dul síos ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl don tSeanadóir Mac Gearailt as ucht an chabhair a thug sé dom anocht.

I speak this evening in support of the amendment to the motion tabled by Senator D'Arcy and Senator Farrelly. This current round of GATT negotiations — the Uruguay Round — which is now to all intents and purposes finalised, has been the most complex, far reaching and intricate ever embarked upon. I believe that it will be viewed in years to come as a milestone in the move towards the liberalisation of world trade. As well as being the first time that attempts have been made to include areas as divers as services and intellectual property rights under GATT rules and disciplines, it is also the first time that agriculture is being dealt with in the GATT in a comprehensive way.

I do not intend to go into the history of the negotiations which have been ongoing since September 1986. Members of this House will be familiar with this as the Uruguay Round was discussed on several occasions here, most recently last month. As the House knows, agriculture is only one of 15 different subjects which have been under consideration in these negotiations. While the thrust of this discussion is towards the agriculture element, before I speak on this aspect I would like to say a few words about the overall agreement and what it will mean in general for this country.

The role of GATT in the proper functioning of world trade is a vital one which must be maintained and improved so that the multilateral trading system is not undermined. This is particularly important for Ireland given our dependence on exports for our future economic growth. I do not have to remind Senators that exports are the lifeblood of the Irish economy and that it is in our interest to have a stable economic trading environment. This is simply illustrated by the fact that today some 60 per cent of the output of Irish industry is exported and two thirds of our manufacturing jobs are dependent on exports.

Ireland's exports have grown very significantly in the past ten years — from £5.7 billion in 1982 to £16.6 billion in 1992. In 1992, Ireland's trade surplus exceeded £3.4 billion which represents an amazing turn around in Ireland's economic fortunes because we had a trade deficit of over £1 billion only ten years earlier.

In 1992 our total exports amounted to £16.6 billion with £4 billion representing agri-food exports and £12 billion representing industrial exports. Our main manufacturing exports included chemicals, £3 billion; data processing equipment, £2.6 billion; and machinery, £1 billion. Our overall trade surplus in 1992 represents 13 per cent of GDP, one of the highest in the world.

We have, therefore, a strong interest in the creation and maintenance of a stable, well regulated, liberal world trading environment. A failure in the Uruguay Round would likely produce the exact opposite and carries the threat of potentially serious damage to the Irish economy. Failure could also lead to a rapid escalation of trade conflicts and could create a hiatus during which the main trading blocs could drift into an increasingly antagonistic trade war. We got a small hint of what that might entail during last year immediately prior to the negotiation of the Blair House agreement when the US threatened to introduced punitive tariffs on EU exports and the EU responded with the threat of retaliatory measures against US products. Some very important Irish products featured on the US "hit list" at that stage and the effect would have been to stop the trade in these products with the consequences of significant job and export earnings losses.

Even bearing in mind that 31 per cent of our exports go to the UK and 43 per cent to other European Union countries, it is certain that these markets would be seriously affected by a trade conflict and that our ability to export would be severely curtailed. Couple that with the fact that a failure to reach agreement would deny us the trade opportunities that are forecast to flow from the expected growth in world trade and Senators can see how important the achievement of a fair and balanced agreement would be to Ireland.

It is in this context that the Government defined our policy in relation to the various elements of the Uruguay Round negotiations. This policy can in broad terms be defined as a commitment to a global and balanced agreement which has regard to our concerns in relation to specific topics in the negotiations. This approach is based on the premise that freer world trade would bring about significant annual gains to the world economy and that we are well placed to take advantage of any such increases. In this regard, the Minister for Tourism and Trade earlier this year commissioned a consultancy firm to assess the impact for Ireland of the likely Uruguay Round agreement.

The study sought to analyse the potential impact on Irish production and employment when the full effect of a GATT agreement had worked through to the international and Irish economies, that is, in the first full year after the six year period over which the GATT agreement is phased. The consultants assumed that a GATT agreement would add a cumulative 1 per cent to the value of world trade each year over the six years of the transition compared to what is assumed would be the case in the absence of a GATT agreement. Conversely, it was assumed that a breakdown in the GATT negotiations would lead to a cumulative 1 per cent annual reduction in the value of world trade over the six years of transition. These assumptions yield an estimate of the long-term impact of a GATT agreement or a GATT breakdown of plus or minus 6 per cent of the value of world trade. It is this world trade growth effect of a GATT agreement which is by far the most important effect in stimulating the production and employment growth which the study postulates will occur.

The study's estimates of a GATT agreement's impact on manufacturing were that Irish manufacturing output would be expected to increase by £524 million if world trade and investment continued unaffected, if there was not a GATT agreement and almost £1,500 million by comparison with a situation where a breakdown was followed by increased global trade protectionism and a slowdown in global investment. Manufacturing employment could be expected to increase by 4,550 and 13,112, respectively, under the same scenarios. The gains in services were estimated at £121 million and £242 million in terms of output and some 6,000 and 12,000 jobs under the "no change" and "trade hostilities" scenarios, respectively. I will deal later with the study's outcome in relation to agriculture.

Turning to agriculture, it will be recalled that the initial draft outline agreement was contained in the Draft Final Act of December 1991. Ireland was to the forefront in securing the Union's rejection of the approach of the Draft Final Act of December 1991 for finalising the round which we considered was not in the best interests of Irish agriculture. Subsequently, the Commission embarked on negotiations, with the US in particular, to find a more equitable outcome. Arising from this, US and Commission negotiators reached agreement at Blair House on a number of amendments to the agriculture sector of the Draft Final Act. The most significant amendments related to the exemption of CAP reform payments from the support reduction obligations, a reduction in the volume restraint commitment from 24 per cent to 21 per cent and the introduction of a peace clause of six years duration.

Notwithstanding the Blair House adjustments, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Walsh, still continued to have concerns on certain aspects of the agreement, particularly in relation to the volume restraint commitment and the matter of application. On the day the agreement was reached, the Minister expressed these concerns and on 20 November 1992 he said that he remained very concerned at the outcome in regard to volume limitations on subsidised exports, particularly in so far as they will affect the beef and dairy sectors. He said he will need to be clear that these can be accommodated within the CAP reform arrangements before there can be any question of his acceptance of the agreement in the Agriculture Council.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, and other Irish Ministers continued to outline the potential impact of the volume restraint aspects of the draft agreement on Irish agriculture at all the relevant Union fora. In addition, they had insisted that the Union's approach to market access, including aggregation and tariffication, which were being strongly challenged in some quarters, be secured and that a range of adjustments would be required to make an agreement acceptable to the Government. Every opportunity was consistently availed of to outline the Government's concerns in bilateral discussions with the Commission, Union Ministers and representatives from countries outside the Union.

Arising from this, on 20 September 1993 a Joint General Affairs/Agriculture Council reaffirmed that the Union must ensure that its international commitments would be compatible with the CAP and the Union's export vocation would be protected. The Council, at the insistence of a number of member states including Ireland, laid down a number of general guidelines for the Commission for further negotiations.

In the further negotiations, significant adjustments were secured. These adjustments represented major gains, particularly when viewed against the strongly held views of some participants that there could be no renegotiation of the export commitments or, alternatively, that if changes were made, the European Union would be required to make major concessions on market access for products of importance to Ireland.

Of major importance are the concessions secured on the export support commitments, on market access and the peace clause. The arrangements secured on the support commitments fully address our concerns in relation to front loading and intervention stocks. Under the revised arrangements the European Union will, by comparison with the volumes which would have resulted from the original Blair House agreement, be able to export the following additional volumes over the next six years: 362,000 tonnes of beef; 146,000 tonnes of dairy products; 8,116,000 tonnes of wheat and wheat flour; and 269,000 tonnes of poultry and eggs.

The foregoing will be particularly beneficial to Ireland. For example, the additional quantities represent 60 per cent of current beef stocks and 33 per cent of current cereal stocks. When compared to stock levels and normal export volumes the change in the front loading commitment in regard to beef is of relatively greater value than it is in the other sectors.

In return for the concessions the European Union will be required to provide some additional access to its markets, mainly in the pigmeat and fruit and vegetables sector, and to reduce the import duty on the quota quantities of some other products, mainly cheese, turkeymeat and liver. In the pigmeat sector, the Union has agreed to provide additional access for 39,000 tonnes of produce while, for cheddar cheese, the import duty for the quota quantity, which will be 15,000 tonnes at the end of the six year period, will be reduced from 845 ECUs to 210 ECUs per tonne.

It is important that the Union accepted the Government's position on resisting further access for beef and dairy products. The fact that the Commission's undertaking not to grant subsidies on beef exports to South-East Asia will not be bound in GATT is also of importance as this leaves open the possibility of pursuing the reopening of this market for beef exports. The Government will continue to pursue this vigorously.

Acceptance of the Union's approach on market access was also particularly beneficial. The tarriffication arrangements and the safeguard mechanism will continue to ensure the protection of Union preference. The acceptance of the Union's aggregation approach on access means that meat imports will be 600,000 tones less than would otherwise arise.

I have already referred to the report of the consultancy firm on the impact for Ireland of the Uruguay Round agreement. The report assessed the impact of the round for the agriculture sector under a number of scenarios. The worst case scenario which projected losses of £310 million is no longer relevant in the light of the arrangements that have been secured. The Government is satisfied that the efficiency of the Irish agriculture and food sector will keep any losses at the lower end of the estimated scale.

The Government has always insisted that the implementation of GATT commitments in the Union must take account of the relative importance of agriculture and specific products to member states and regions. It has also always insisted that any GATT commitments which go beyond those in the CAP reform must be subject to adequate compensation to ensure that the income of producers is consistent with that under CAP reform. That continues to be the Government's position. The assurances obtained at the European Council and in the Council of Ministers can be relied on to secure any necessary compensatory measures at European Union level.

It must be kept in mind that the alternative to a GATT agreement was not a continuation of the status quo. If an agreement was not reached, it was inevitable that either many of the Union's support arrangements would be challenged under the GATT or there would be trade hostilities. The Union's support arrangements were vulnerable under the GATT, whereas the peace clause arrangement which will now continue for nine years would safeguard the current support and protection arrangements. The consultancy report has estimated the costs to the agriculture sector in a trade hostilities scenario at £125 million per annum, which must be regarded as a conservative figure.

The Irish agriculture and food sector will face challenges under the new GATT arrangements and the Government does not under-estimate these challenges. At the same time, the fact that Irish industry was increasingly successful in exploiting market opportunities on the Union market and had reduced its dependence on the intervention system is reassuring and is a measure of the ability of the agri-food sector to face all challenges and to successfully adapt to new situations. This favourable trend will undoubtedly continue and will be supported by the Government in regard to investment aid, market promotion and assistance for research and development.

As I have said, the agri-food industry is well prepared to face the new challenges. In this regard, investment in the industry from 1987-93 amounted to £323 million, assisted with EC grant awards totalling £121 million under the FEOGA processing and marketing grants schemes and over £47 million in grant awards provided by the national development agencies.

The food sub-programme for the period 1994-99 envisages total investment of £665 million. It is envisaged that the EU will contribute £231 million towards the implementation of the programme and almost £73 million is to be provided by the State. The programme includes the provision of capital grants to the food industry and financial assistance for research and development, marketing and promotion and training.

I consider that, viewed objectively, particularly against the background of negotiations which have been ongoing since 1986 and the number of sectors and countries involved, all of whom had their own interests to protect, the proposed agreement underlines the fact that the Government's strategy in the negotiations in relation to agriculture has resulted in Ireland's major concerns being satisfactorily addressed.

I commend the amended Motion to the Seanad.

One of the most unusual moments I had since being elected to this House was two or three years ago when the then Minister for Agriculture, Senator O'Kennedy, had the first discussion on the proposed reform of the CAP. There were speakers on all sides of the House, but Senator O'Kennedy and I were the only two people who spoke in favour of what was happening at the time. It was extraordinary, Fianna Fáil spoke at length against what was happening——

The Senator only walked in here when the lights were switched on.

—— and then voted for it.

I said it then, and I say it now, that many aspects of the CAP were suffocating and oppressing the agricultural sector. The Government had no choice but to ensure the best deal possible in the GATT negotiations. The amendments to the Blair House agreement which have been achieved during the last two or three weeks are of vital importance to the agricultural sector. No one could agree with the decision, and it would not have been possible to sustain it, to take 21 per cent from the CAP because this would have hit the agricultural sector in a particular year. The fact that this is now being spread over a period of five or six years is important. Equally important is the concession that the amount of intervention beef can now be sold off over a period of two years.

The Minister says "The fact that the Commission's undertaking not to grant subsidies on beef exports to South-East Asia will not be bound in GATT is also of importance as this leaves open the possibility of pursuing the reopening of this market for beef exports." I do not know what this means. I believe it is misleading, gives incorrect information and gives a sense that, in some way, a deal has been struck in order to gain access to the south-east Asian market. If this is the case I cannot find any evidence for it.

As far as I am aware, the south-east Asian market is closed. I support the view of the IFA and the farming community that it is disgraceful that that market and the Japanese food market, the most lucrative market in terms of food exports, have been closed to us. If I were to pinpoint one aspect of the GATT negotiations which have let us down it is in that area. There is nothing in GATT to create optimism about access to the south-east Asian market. If anything the GATT agreement distances that market further because it stitches down the current arrangements. It would be better if we were told this.

I believe the most important part of GATT is the fact that we will now be considering non-subsidised agricultural exports. Anybody objecting to GATT is not considering the country as a whole. This country cannot and could not survive without GATT. It may be that those considering GATT from the viewpoint of the agricultural sector can point to issues and flaws in it. However, the reality emerges when we compare our market with any of the major world markets. For example, the USA, Canada and Japan are three huge markets and in terms of tariffs and barriers, Europe has far fewer barriers to trade. In fact, if the barriers in these four markets were broken down in the morning, they would create a potential balance of trade surplus for Europe of almost £0.5 billion in respect of the USA, £1.5 billion in respect of Canada and £1.5 billion in respect of Japan. Ultimately, therefore, if all the barriers were down, we would be the great gainers.

It annoys me that the agri-industry in Ireland lacks the kind of support it should receive. Over the last two years I have been closely examining developments in this area, and some of these are positive. However, for some reason we are not breaking into this industry. For example, Tara Foods, located in Kilbeggan, is a company working without access to any of the Community supports. It does not depend on the CAP, intervention or anything else. It does its business and is a successful company. There is another company in west Limerick, in the Newcastle West area, undertaking the same kind of business. That company is buying premium quality food, exporting it and creating a market. That is where our future lies.

The Minister referred to the fact that 127,000 extra tonnes of cheese can now be exported from Europe. The reaction of the Food, Drink and Tobacco Federation to this announcement last week is indicative of all that is wrong with the Irish agri-food sector. The reaction of the federation to the opportunity of a market for an extra 127,000 tonnes of cheese was that this was of no use to Ireland, but that the French and the Danish cheese industries could export into new areas. This was throwing in the towel. The market is as accessible to us as it is to Denmark and France. Indeed, there are people participating in the craft fair in the Mansion House at present who are endeavouring to sell and find markets for cheese. This is happening on a cottage industry basis and on a larger scale.

Our cheese industry is growing rapidly; we cannot cope with the output. We must find new markets and this additional export capacity is a small example of a niche that has been created through the change in the Blair House agreement which is of great value to this country.

This House can take pride in the fact that it has, more than any other institution in this State, maintained a constant debate on GATT over the past couple of months. Nobody else has managed to do so. IBEC failed in this respect and I accept a certain portion of the blame on behalf of the trade union movement.

The economists of this country have let us down. There is a report on GATT with the Department of Tourism and Trade which has not been published. This has aroused grave suspicion that there is something in the report of which we are unaware. I believe the reason for its non-publication is that it has been written by economists who never tell us anything. Everything is on the one hand, and on the other hand. In addition, economists confuse issues and they are always, unerringly inaccurate in anything they have to say about finance. Furthermore, one will always find them on both sides of every financial debate and economic argument. They are of no use. My conjecture is that the report is gobbledegook, and that is why it has not been published. However, I believe it should be published.

Those aspects of agriculture, together with anything based on fibres, for example, the rag trade, which will undoubtedly suffer over the next two or three years, should get support to enable them to make a bridge into new areas of development.

Under the Lomé Agreement we made a number of concessions to Third World countries by breaking down barriers for them. Now under the GATT these barriers have broken down for everybody and the advantage we gave the Third World countries has been eroded. In view of this I ask the Minister and the Government to look at more creative and imaginative ways of showing the same level of support for those Third World countries which suffer from reducing trade barriers. It has been suggested that GATT is bad for these countries; however, that is not necessarily so if we approach matters differently but with the same level of support for them. Similarly, I believe GATT will allow services to Third World countries which will enable the development of their own industry to take place and also allow them to go forward.

Finally, I believe that the sending of CAP products from intervention to Third World countries, where it was seen as a charitable gesture from this side of the world, put food into Third World countries at an uneconomic and uncompetitive rate which, in effect, depressed the development of the agriculture sector in those countries and was not good for them. I believe they will improve.

I support the amendment. As I mentioned recently, GATT is about trade. The GATT agreement which was signed in 1947 is a multilateral treaty providing a code of rules for the conduct of world trade and a forum where countries can discuss and resolve their commercial problems and negotiate a reduction in barriers to trade.

It is important that there be a GATT agreement. The Uruguay Round is the eighth round of negotiations and has been in progress for seven years. It is an achievement that agreement appears to have been reached.

The resources of one country can be very different from those of another. Therefore there must be agreement as to how these resources are used in terms of imports and exports. In this context, control is necessary, and this is what GATT provides. As Senator O'Toole said, when CAP was discussed in this House there was scepticism about whether it would be good for Ireland. That was because we were frightened by propaganda, which we are still hearing today. As a member of the EU we had to accept CAP. We joined the European Community to better our way of life and we have definitely benefited from it. If there were no quota system we would get far lower prices for milk and other produce. The CAP compensation system has helped farmers and they welcome it.

It was also said farmers would suffer greatly if there was disagreement. Irish farmers, especially those in the west, would suffer much more if agreement had not been reached. Senator D'Arcy said he was puzzled that the newspapers supported the GATT. The newspapers are not the source of this support; it is coming from people expressing their opinions to the media. In today's Cork Examiner Mr. Alan Gillis, outgoing president of the IFA, accused the Government of failing adequately to defend agriculture. He also accused them of that in the past. Fine Gael Members mentioned his opposition to GATT. I would not be surprised by that. As I said before——

Does that mean he is not running for Fianna Fáil in the European election?

That does not concern me. It would be nice to see two IFA people in the contest for the seats in Leinster.

Acting Chairman

The Senator should be allowed to continue his contribution and to stay on the motion. Time is limited.

The next paragraph of this article quotes from the greatest authority on agriculture in Ireland, Professor Séamus Sheehy.

He is an economist, he never farmed in his life.

He is respected and the Senator often quoted him.

Acting Chairman

Senator Kiely, do not allow yourself to be provoked.

I can be provoked easily but I will heed your advice.

I did not mean to provoke the Senator.

The professor said the deal was extremely good news, not just for industry but for agriculture. He described it as an excellent package and said he very much welcomed it. IBEC also welcomed it and the deal is worth 2,000 jobs to Ireland.

Two Irishmen played an important role in securing the GATT, Mr. Peter Sutherland and Mr. Ray MacSharry. Senator D'Arcy said he would not trust Mr. Sutherland. I was surprised by that remark. Mr. Sutherland is an Irishman and while his job as director-general of GATT requires him to be neutral he would think of his native country. Last Thursday night, when the negotiations between Brussels and Washington had broken down, Mr. Sutherland insisted both sides would talk about what had been achieved instead of about their continuing differences. He injected fresh momentum at a decisive moment and since then the obstacles have fallen one by one. I commend him for staying up all night to ensure the negotiations reached a satisfactory conclusion before the deadline tonight.

The GATT package covers 15 trading sectors. It was always recognised the Uruguay Round of talks would stand or fall on the agriculture issue. The former EC commissioner, Mr. MacSharry was a driving force behind the agreement on this area. The American priority in the GATT talks was to target EU export subsidies, used to dump surplus products on the world market at knockdown prices. The threat to Europe did not come from the Americans alone. Large scale beef producing countries like Brazil and Argentina were also angry about export subsidies. Therefore, Europe had only two choices; to agree to cutbacks in the negotiations, or allow the GATT to judge the issue, with every prospect of defeat.

In 1990 Mr. MacSharry launched the CAP reform plan, designed to cut overproduction. This is accepted as a great success. It was one element in a complex process with the US trade representative, Mrs. Carla Hills, who was demanding a cut of no less than 90 per cent. In July 1990 Mr. MacSharry addressed a meeting of ministers from the world's leading nations at Dromoland Castle, County Clare. Without giving advance notice he suddenly announced the EC was to cut subsidies by 30 per cent. There was a great furore after that announcement and the farming organisations said Irish farming had been sold down the river. However, Mr. MacSharry knew what he was doing on that occasion.

In December 1990, the 116 GATT partners met in Brussels, supposedly to wrap up the deal. Mrs. Hills continued to press for a 90 per cent cut in export subsidies but Mr. MacSharry dug in his heels. Talks were held until the EU endorsed the plan. In November 1992 Mr. MacSharry went to Chicago and had a meeting with Mr. Madigan. At that stage he agreed to a 21 per cent cut in EU subsidies over six years. That was a fine achievement. Mr. Delors disagreed with him on this point and conveyed a message to Mr. MacSharry's hotel. He in turn threatened to resign and then Mr. Delors told him to continue. The good work Mr. MacSharry has done to bring about this trade agreement should be acknowledged.

We should also compliment our negotiators, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, the Minister for Tourism and Trade and the Tánaiste. They spent many hours negotiating the best deal for Ireland and our Farmers. The Minister, Deputy Walsh, always made it clear that any deals in the GATT should be accommodated in the CAP reform arrangements before there would be any question of him accepting it. I pay tribute to these people.

Senator O'Toole said he had difficulty understanding a section of the Minister's contribution. I did not get as much education as the Senator but I think I understand it. I quote:

The fact that the Commission's undertaking not to grant subsidies on beef exports to south-east Asia will not be bound in GATT is also of importance as this leaves open the possibility of pursuing the reopening of this market for beef exports. The Government will continue to pursue this vigorously.

This will definitely reopen markets for Irish beef exports and anything which does that should be welcomed.

I quote another part of the Minister's speech:

The Government has always insisted that the implementation of GATT commitments within the Union must take account of the relative importance of agriculture and specific products to member states and regions. It has also always insisted that any GATT commitments which go beyond those in the CAP reform must be subject to adequate compensation to ensure that the income of producers is consistent with that under CAP reform. That continues to be the Government's position. The assurances obtained at the European Council and in the Council of Ministers can be relied on to secure any necessary compensatory measures at European Union level.

I have every confidence in our negotiating team of the Tánaiste, the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy McCreevy and especially the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Walsh and his junior Ministers, Deputy O'Shea and Deputy Hyland. They will ensure whatever deal is made will be the best for Irish agriculture and farmers. I welcome the deal. It is a good one for our country and will also help the world economy. I do not think it will have the adverse effect on agriculture referred to by some Senators and farm organisation leaders.

I think you will agree with me, a Chathaoirligh, when I say that there is a certain air of unreality about this debate, given the historic agreement reached between the British and Irish Governments this afternoon. The lights were not on when I came in and I thought we were sinking into a European darkness. It would be appropriate for us on this historic day to put on record the fact that this agreement has taken place and that the benefits we all hope can accrue from it will flow to us.

I welcome the Minister, I am pleased he did not have to give this creative speech to the House because having listened to and read it, one wonders what the problem was. On the basis of this speech, this marvellous GATT deal has delivered so many benefits to us that we should not be critical of it. The confidential report of the Department of Tourism and Trade to which Senator O'Toole referred is quoted from in some detail. Now that the agreement has concluded, it would be useful to see that report in its totality. I can see strategic reasons for not publishing the report beforehand, but I can see none for not publishing it now and making it available to us. There is a degree of creative accounting in this matter. We keep hearing abut the benefits gained for us, in the GATT talks and in the clarification of the Blair House agreement, but there is not much about the losses that will accrue. While one might concede that, as a small open economy, we have little choice but to participate in a GATT agreement nevertheless it is unquestionable that there are severe consequences facing our agricultural industry. It is also unquestionable that given the dominance of Irish agriculture within our economy, there will be a knock-on effect. We can argue about the magnitude of that effect, whether it is the £480 million loss in farm output, which the Irish Farmers' Association claim, or as this speech put in picturesque terms, the price of hostilities amounting to £214 million. We can argue about the scale of the magnitude but the bottom line is that there is an effect. Of course there are benefits to certain sectors. The last time this issue was debated, I mentioned the fact that my party put down a motion three years ago in this House underlining the dangers for GATT.

When the debate on GATT eventually reached the media, and it has taken a considerable period of time to get there, I heard one of these eminent economists, to whom we are all meant to listen with great care and attention, suggest that a person buying food from the supermarket would benefit from a reduction of £1,000 a year in their food bill. That is arrant nonsense because if one goes into a supermarket and takes any food product off the shelf, the contribution the price of the raw material makes to the value of the product is minimal. Packaging, services and other such factors are the major contributors towards the cost of food. In addition, if one takes into account that 40p in every pound of our net foreign earnings derive from the produce of our farms, it is then certain that at least part of the benefit which might accrue to consumers will be exported and given to consumers in other countries. It is a fundamental law of economics that the capacity of people to eat a certain amount is limited. Apart from this, it is also common sense.

And a biological one.

It is also stated that as incomes rise, if I may go back to my college economics, the proportion devoted to food falls. That is also common-sense. It is difficult to forecast the alleged benefits that will accrue to us. We have heard about the world economy and how much it will grow, but we have to live in our own little island and the farmers living here have to try to make a living. We must be concerned about them.

The fear is that this so called attractive doctrine of trade liberalisation will benefit only the United States of America. How will we, even with our larger farms of 100-200 acres, compete with feed lots of thousands of cattle and prairie farms producing thousands of acres of cereals? That is what confronts our farmers. Is it appropriate that although the Minister is working hard to improve rural development and fund rural infrastructure, we are getting to the point where no one will be left to avail of that infrastructure? Is it right that when those people leave our farms, and are forced into emigrating or into urban conglomerates, with all the social consequences that entails, the Government has to find the money to pay their unemployment benefit when it would have been much better to have found a smaller amount of money to keep them in the rural community? They are the fundamental questions faced by society but they have not been answered and have not been addressed in the context of GATT.

I am critical of the role of our most senior politicians in this matter. I have repeatedly said it was a matter of such consequence it was proper that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste should have been involved. When the Tánaiste went to the United States of America to discuss Northern Ireland with President Clinton — he was right in doing so because it was an important matter — did he also address the other important issues about trade and the consequences of a GATT deal for our country? In addition, was it right that when the heads of Government met, there was a discussion about GATT only at the end of the day, it was only brought in through the side door because, as far as I am aware, it was not on the agenda?

There have been minor concessions. Because the French and the Americans made such a fuss over cinema and video, they were able to leave that to one side, while thousands of people are affected by other issues which do not seem to have been of such magnitude. I am afraid I cannot come to terms with that sort of thinking.

The deal is there but I do not think it is as good as it should have been for us. To dwell on these minor concessions and regard them as victories is disingenuous. They were not victories. Where do we go from here? It should go on further than CAP reform and where there is compensation — we started off by saying we did not want any — it must be full and permanent compensation, not compensation which will disappear within a few years. There is a genuine problem here because the budget is increasing all the time as a result of the MacSharry reforms. There is a budgetary problem in terms of finding the compensation moneys.

Within the EU, we are locked into this system of quotas. What happens when we have to compete in this market and the signal comes to us to produce extra milk, grain, beef or mutton? How will we do it? If milk production in Idaho is increased by 8 per cent, how will we produce extra milk when we get the market signal? I do not understand it. Perhaps we are getting to the point where we will have to talk about sea quotas and producing milk at world prices. At least some of our dairy farmers are competitive enough to do that.

Compensation must be full and permanent. I am sorry it has been asked for but that is the position. The Culliton report must also be adopted in full, as the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, said in this House last summer. When we get to these so-called world prices, and we could argue at length about them, Ireland must be able to produce off its farms and at least allow our people some prospect of living on the land.

I support the amendment to the motion. As a small country, Ireland does not need world trade hostility because it has been proved over and over that small countries lose most. We can rest assured that if any conflict arose, regarding restrictions on our exports, other larger countries in the EC would have various ways of camouflaging change. In the long run Ireland would be the major loser if there was trade hostility.

GATT's role is of extreme importance to the proper functioning of world trade. If an agreement is up and running, trade can flow freely. While there was much sabre rattling among the major countries, the agreement, which is almost finalised, is better for us. For that reason I compliment everybody involved in the Irish negotiations. It was not an easy task. When we talk of world powers, we are talking about countries which have billions in excess of what we have. We must play our role in a world where these big powers are front runners. I also compliment the Tánaiste, who is receiving other compliments today for his work with the Taoiseach, a constituency colleague and friend of mine, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Walsh, and the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy McCreevy, for the major roles they played in the agreement.

The GATT agreement is far reaching. The Uruguay Round was discussed in this House on numerous occasions and perhaps it is a little late to discuss it now because agreement has been reached. However, it is right that we should air our views. The Uruguay Round has been going on since the mid-1980s and there have been ups and downs. We must remember that, prior to the Blair House negotiations, the US threatened to introduce punitive measures. Items important to the Irish economy and Irish jobs were earmarked to be cut. If that had happened, it is possible that factories would have closed and we would never have regained those products or jobs. That point should be made and kept in mind. When punitive measures are introduced by one group, there are retaliatory actions. Anything that upsets the balance of complicated world trade will have serious effects on economies and jobs. We cannot have any jobs at risk at present. Our sales to the UK, the EC and other European countries are high. There is no doubt that if restrictions had been imposed, these trading links would have been greatly affected.

Any conflict restricts world trade. If there are punitive measures on one side and retaliatory measures on the other, it stops the proper flow of trade and we do not want that. Given that some agreements have been reached and others are being discussed, we will have a better flow in world trade and Ireland will benefit. We must remember we cannot have everything our own way. We cannot have all and give nothing. There must be a balance and that achieved by our negotiators is the best possible. We cannot always have what we seek.

I compliment the people involved, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Walsh, and the Ministers of State. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, for coming to the House and reassuring us that the Government has done its best to get a proper settlement for GATT.

I support the motion. Broadly speaking, I welcome the GATT agreement. It will be good for some sectors of the economy and there will be substantial benefits from it. However, that is not the case all round. Analysis, and our intuition, leads us to believe that there will be job gains in the chemical, electronic, pharmaceutical and mechanical engineering sectors and job losses in agriculture, clothing and textiles. That is generally agreed but it is the magnitude of the losses which gives rise to different opinions. It is inevitable that the Government party will put the best possible face on it while the Opposition will have a different analysis. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

Many of us spend much time assessing the likely effects on our areas. National figures are one thing but the European Union figures are a different matter. What really matters is what effect it will have on our neighbours, their families and friends and our constituents. In some cases that leads to quite depressing analysis. My neighbours, friends and constituents will not benefit from the gains in the chemical, electronics and pharmaceutical sectors, which will be the biggest winners, according to the best analysis I can find. We do not have that type of industry base in the area.

The structure of agriculture in Cavan-Monaghan, and in the western counties in general, is very weak, as 70 per cent of the farmers are working holdings under 50 acres. I imagine some of the western counties would have a worse structure. Therefore, we are incredibly vulnerable. I suggest that up to 5,000 jobs will be lost over the next six years. We are starting from a base which is not as bad as in cities and in other parts of the country. There are 7,000 to 7,500 unemployed people in County Cavan and County Monaghan. The worst scenario is that we will add another 5,000 or 6,000 to that figure over the next six years rather than make huge gains.

Given the strong base of our food industry, we will continue to progress in that area. However, our manufacturing industries — such as furniture making — in County Monaghan are becoming more mechanised and require fewer people. This is depressing. We must analyse our present and future situation and then come up with a prescription for future policy formation.

Farmers will need compensation to stay in business. Although we are often accused of going around with a begging bowl, given the depressing unemployment figures throughout the EU we should try to keep people at work even if it takes compensation to do it. People should not be pushed into an economy where there are no alternatives. I would not worry if my neighbours and constituents could get jobs in factories. Many farmers who work small pieces of land find it difficult to make a living and they would be happy with that. However, those alternatives are not available.

I am worried about future generations. Young people coming onto the jobs market each year are suffering. We all get telephone calls for help. Each week I receive approximately 12 calls from young people asking for help to get a job. They have written to numerous companies without success. The economy is stagnant. Areas with a traditional economic base which do not have modern factories suffer terribly. People in such areas spend their limited resources sending curriculum vitaes but they get no response. People do not understand why this happens and very often their dreams are shattered. The romantic future they hoped for during their final years at school is destroyed. They are left in a wasteland where they cannot use their skills. If this trend continues, it will be bad for the ethos of the country. We must analyse, prescribe and help ourselves but we also need outside help.

Today's talks about peace highlighted the fact the Border counties have suffered because the Border exists; they have suffered because of the policy pursued by the IDA, no doubt inspired by the Government. Goods sold in Northern Ireland do not receive financial assistance from the IDA. For the past four or five years we have said that market penetration in Northern Ireland is poor yet we continue to pursue that policy. If there was integration between the two economies, up to 75,000 jobs could be created. Yet we pursue a policy which prevents us from capitalising on that market.

At present, I am assisting a group who want to become involved in manufacturing and they are looking at the English and other markets rather than the Northern Ireland market because they will not get grant aid there. The Border counties could exploit such a situation. I ask the Minister to listen carefully to what I have said. Given the prospects of further discussions leading to peace, it would be a gesture to Irish entrepreneurs to give them the assistance they require to exploit that market and to create a unified economy. As I said, people involved in manufacturing do not consider the Northern Ireland market because there is no grant aid and the entire island is losing out as a result.

We cannot change the situation now. This agreement will evolve over the next five or six years. At the end of that period we can look back and say whether predictions made by Government were right or wrong. However, those of us interested in improving the conditions of the people who elected us must continue to strive to create additional jobs.

I do not believe Structural Funds will create the number of jobs we require. Some parts of the country will be unduly hit by this agreement because of the structure of their economy. We need to work hard to try to give young people and future generations hope for the future. I hope we will succeed.

There have been odd features to the debate which has taken place here and elsewhere over the past few days on GATT. There is an air of unreality about it. I realise it is complex and, as the last speaker said, it will take some time to digest. There are, however, certain truths about GATT which we must accept. In any agreement of this nature governing international trade, there must be give and take; the advantage cannot be on one side. Some hair-raising propositions put forward about GATT — for example, the end of family farming and the destruction of a series of industries — are alarmist. Such arguments are not based on an in-depth examination of reality. Ireland is a small open economy and if we do not export, we die. A GATT agreement is, therefore, more important to Ireland than to many other economies.

Much has been made in the media about the role of the US. However, we must put this in context. Trade is less significant to the American economy than it is to the Irish economy. A GATT agreement is vital to Ireland's better interests. The nature of our economy is so export dependent that any failure to reach agreement, or to make the necessary compromises to reach an agreement, would have been inimical to our long term interests. When trade relations between the US and EU declined dramatically in the 1991-92 period and it looked as if the US was going to fall back on protectionism, we saw, for the first time, the real impact this could have. The Minister referred to the targeting of high profile exports from this country. A 200 per cent increase in export levies on Bailey's Irish Cream and Waterford Glass products was threatened. It does not require much imagination to see that such a move would have devastated those enterprises. Notwithstanding the difficulties Waterford Glass has had in the past, a hike of 200 per cent in US tariff levels on what is primarily a dollar export-oriented product would have been absolutely devastating.

The Blair House agreement has rightly been criticised for its many warts yet, if it achieved nothing else, it did help to end that phase of the GATT negotiations. It also introduced a number of elements which we, as a nation, rightly contested. Much has been said about the downside of the Blair House agreement for agriculture but our negotiators achieved the best deal they could. With the French, we contributed a major input towards changing the final outcome on agriculture.

Here and in the wider public debate, there have been some extraordinary examples of unreality. There have even been questions as to whether we should be in GATT at all, which I find amazing because it is an argument from yesteryear. Some 30 years ago when membership of GATT was first discussed, Ireland was a small, closed economy. As a nation we made a conscious decision, to which successive Governments contributed, to open our economy and try to create growth and prosperity from exports. We must face reality; we cannot engage in the type of self-delusion that argues against GATT membership.

Those of us who participate in public debate and the formulation of public policy have a responsibility to those participating in the real economy. These are the people of whom Senator Cotter spoke so movingly, the people we see in our clinics; they are young people, the generation who do not seem to know where we are going. I also wonder sometimes where we are going.

I lecture in a third level institution attended by the finest people from our second level colleges and I wonder how we are going to provide jobs for them. The GATT agreement, which the Minister covered very cogently in his speech, will be one way of helping them because it will liberalise world trade. If the agreement fulfils its objectives it will boost trade figures worldwide. A conservative estimate has suggested the worldwide trade boost from the GATT agreement will be of the order of 1 to 1.5 per cent. Even the lower figure would mean an immediate injection in the first year of about £247 billion for world trade. The European Union, of which we are an integral part, accounts for approximately 21 per cent of the world's export trade so a significant slice of that figure will accrue to Europe. As other speakers have said, areas such as the chemical industry, electronics and certain manufacturing industries will do very well out of GATT.

There will, of course, be a downside because the GATT agreement will try to cut out internal subsidies, free up export access to foreign markets and get rid of some fundamental parts of Europe's agricultural and economic policies. I have sympathy for some of the arguments put forward by spokespersons for the agricultural sector. In his speech the Minister dealt with the additional volumes the EU will be able to export under the revised arrangements following the original Blair House agreement. Over the next six years these improved volumes will include 362,000 tonnes of beef; 146,000 tonnes of dairy products; 8.1 million tonnes of wheat and wheat flour; and 269,000 tonnes of poultry and eggs. One can see from those figures that some of the worst suggestions of the agricultural commentators have not been proven, although there are elements of truth in what they said. We all recall the debate that took place when Ireland joined the EU. One of the great benefits was supposed to be a common market with closed access for agriculture and a guaranteed consumer market for farm products. We are now changing that for very good reasons, not least because in the process of international trade negotiations there is give and take. Since the give is in the agricultural area, it would be a good idea to examine the issue of compensation.

We should also examine some of the contradictions involved in the GATT agreement. When we talk about agricultural access we must recognise that any access for agricultural products into the EU will simply increase the surpluses there thus increasing the pressures on us to run down production. There are other contradictory elements in the agreement, for example, the limited access for EU products to the Far East and Pacific markets generally and Japan in particular. A few years ago a group from both Houses of the Oireachtas was in Taiwan seeking to increase our beef exports to that country. I recall the technical barriers to trade that were put in our way. We have to accept that in the GATT agreement the entire Pacific Basin seems to have been left almost exclusively to America.

The GATT agreement is not just a curate's egg, good and bad. It has more good elements than bad, though there are obvious elements that need to be improved, such as EU access to certain markets. On balance we must accept the agreement as the best that could be achieved and it is much better than most of us expected. The prognostications of doom are not well founded. I support this amendment.

Senator Kelleher, you have approximately three minutes.

I welcome this debate because over the last few years there has been very little discussion of the broad topic of GATT. When a debate took place it was unintelligent and biased in the way it was presented. Effectively, the farm lobby said GATT would be the death knell for Irish agriculture while the trade unions and IBEC never mentioned the agreement. The overall GATT agreement is good for the Irish economy and that is why it must be accepted. Some Senators have said the GATT deal is bad for the country but I cannot understand how, if it is good for the economy, it can be bad for Ireland.

The issue of rural depopulation was also raised. We must realise that many young people do not wish to stay on the land and if we can create jobs for them in other areas then this GATT agreement is welcome. How can one tell a young person who inherits 20 acres that they must stay on the land because jobs cannot be provided anywhere else? I am confident that jobs will be created by the GATT agreement which will balance world trade and help Ireland's open economy. We can no longer tell the farm lobby that the endless supply of subsidies will continue because we are living in the real world which is ruled by the economy.

It is important to frequently remind people who are dependent on subsidies that they will not last forever. GATT is a step towards the liberalisation of world trade which will eventually see subsidies being reduced. We will be trading in a world economy where efficiency will survive and inefficiency will not. It is disingenuous of us to discuss subsidies time and again. We must discuss other ways we can provide jobs.

The agreement came about in difficult circumstances. I welcome some of the concessions to which we acceded in the Blair House agreement. The general thrust of the GATT is welcome. Senators on both sides of the House realise the need for a world trade agreement and it is time such an agreement was reached.

Irish farm leaders called on the Government to veto the agreement. This was very unfair. They put a gun to the Government's head when the overriding factor was the economy and our people. The suggestion that we use the veto in the national interest was very disingenuous. Not all the unemployed or the young people leaving college, who cannot find work, are farmers. We should look to the greater good rather than to vested interests.

I welcome the agreement. The Director General of the GATT, Mr. Peter Sutherland, said the agreement was good for this country and advised us to sign it quickly before it was too late. I compliment Mr. Ray MacSharry. At times he had to take a lot of flak. He was hailed as a hero until he announced a 30 per cent cut in exports. With hindsight, that was a good deal.

The GATT deal is an improvement on the Blair House agreement and it must be welcomed. I compliment everybody associated with the negotiations.

I wish to clarify a point. It was said that I criticised the newspapers for not opposing the agreement. I did not do so. I said the debate in the print media was biased. The coverage given to agriculture in the papers today was very limited.

The Minister gave details of the additional volumes of beef and dairy products the EU will be able to export over the next six years compared to what would have resulted from the original Blair House agreement. This is the agreement to which we objected all along. The Minister said the Union will be able to export an additional 362,000 tonnes of beef. However, we should not be fooled by this figure. At the end of the six years there will be a volume reduction of approximately 5 per cent. There will be a 4 per cent reduction in the volume of dairy products which can be exported. This is where the problem lies. While I accept this agreement is an improvement on the Blair House agreement, nevertheless the figures relating to volume reductions are staring us in the face.

Senator Roche raised the issue of subsidies. I do not trust the Americans. Over the years they have complained bitterly about the subsidisation of agriculture throughout Europe. However, they subsidise their own 2 million farmers by approximately £28 billion a year and they will find a way to continue doing so. One year they may have a drought, which will be regarded as a disaster, and they will compensate farmers. The next year they may have a hurricane and again they will subsidise farmers. I do not know how this can be controlled. This has been the practice in America through the years. I am sure the US Government will find a way to continue subsidising their farmers. The US was very keen to insist on volume reductions and cuts in subsidies to reduce agriculture prices to world market levels. We will find, and we will not have too long to wait, there is no equivalent to the way the US subsidises agriculture based on the numbers farming.

Some lots in the US run 6,500 to 7,500 cattle and are farmed by two or three people. There are huge dust bowls and tracts of land in California managed by one or two people. We do not want such a situation here. We have family farms. When we had a scarcity of food during the war years, it was the small family farmer who provided food. I do not want to see these farms disappear overnight.

We are not complaining about the agreement but the impact it will have on agriculture. As the volumes are reduced, costs in the processing sector will increase resulting in redundancies. Not only farmers but rural areas will be affected. I would hate to see farmers with less than 100 acres, particularly in the beef sector, become non-viable overnight. The milk sector is not very prosperous but at least people can have viable holdings in respect of 35,000 to 40,000 gallons of milk. The same cannot be said of the beef sector. If the 21 per cent cut is implemented in five years time, the beef sector will not be viable. This sector is vital to this country. We export approximately 80 per cent of the beef we produce. Our agricultural exports amount to between £4 billion and £5 billion and our industrial exports amount to £12 billion. We should also take import content into account. If there is a decline in the rural economy that would be bad for Ireland.

In relation to compensation, the Minister and everybody else knows the EU agriculture budget always faces difficulties. This is the only source from which compensation for losses can be paid. Neither the UK nor Germany will allow further compensation. The Minister said "the assurances obtained at the European Council and in the Council of Ministers can be relied on to secure any necessary compensatory measures at European Union level." The Minister said this in the knowledge he has of the difficulties facing the EU agriculture budget. He knows that a tough battle will have to be fought to obtain any further concessions in respect of compensation. I had experience of negotiations in Europe when it was easier to obtain money for agriculture. The Minister may think the GATT negotiations were a big battle but seeking compensation will be just as difficult. I do not foresee an improvement in this area in view of the attitude of the British and the Germans. Their main interests are in the industrial side of the global economy. They will not provide money for compensation.

There is always a danger when multinational conglomerates achieve control of any area. They now have the benefit of a global agreement and there is no doubt they will move their industrial bases to the cheaper economies. They will flood the dearer economies with high volumes of products which will lead to the collapse of some markets. They have done this before. We got no support from multinational financial institutions last year when interest rates were soaring at 20 to 25 per cent. They were ready for the kill. The big multinationals will do the same. They will sell large volumes of products at cheap prices which will destroy our markets. Nevertheless, as a reasonable politician with an understanding of our economy, I accept that as a small open economy we have little option but we must continue to fight our case.

I initiated three debates in this House on GATT. I presume the Minister appreciates that we need to keep him and his Department sharp in the different areas. It is essential to debate and to try to get improvements in any area of the economy. I hope that what I am saying will not come true in the next four or five years. However, there has to be an ongoing debate in this and the other House to ensure, now that the agreement is signed, that any measures for improvement in agriculture do not drive our farmers from the land, as I believe may happen as a result of this agreement.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 16.

  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calnan, Michael.
  • Cashin, Bill.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Crowley, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Gallagher, Ann.
  • Henry, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kiely, Dan.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • Magner, Pat.
  • Maloney, Sean.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Townsend, Jim.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Cregan, Denis (Dino).
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • McDonagh, Jarlath.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Mullooly and Magner; Níl, Senators Cosgrave and Burke.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
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