Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 1995

Vol. 141 No. 18

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

It is proposed to take Items 1, 2 and 3 today. It is hoped to complete Item 1 by 1 p.m. with the Minister called no later than 12.45 p.m. It is proposed that there be 15 minutes for the first speaker from each group and ten minutes thereafter.

Item 2 will be taken from 2 p.m. until 4 p.m. It will not conclude today, it will be taken again this day next week. Everyone who wants to contribute on that matter should be able to do so. Again, I propose 15 minutes for the first speaker from each group and ten minutes thereafter. Item 3 will be taken from 4 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. We will take but not conclude Second Stage of the Bill.

I propose that at the conclusion of Item 1 we take an additional item — an hour devoted to statements on the disturbances and events last night in Lansdowne Road. This is a matter of urgent importance which Members would like to address. I propose five minutes per speaker to allow as many as possible to contribute.

I ask for some flexibility in ordering business today. The Taoiseach is taking Item 1 and because, as in this House, the time for the Order of Business in the other House is not fixed, there may be a slight delay. We will see what happens but I inform the House of that possibility.

Mr. Wright

We agree to flexibility in the Order of Business and I thank the Leader for taking the initiative to allow this House the opportunity to condemn last night's events. We must focus on the minority involved — I will not call them fans. I will not say more because we will have an opportunity to speak later. Some of us were at a rugby match in Lansdowne Road when three times as many English fans attended and it was a marvellous sporting occasion. Today we must focus on the causes of the trouble created by that minority. I take it that if events unfold on this issue we will be afforded another chance to discuss any inquiry that may be held and its results.

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Wright

I suggest we allow seven minutes for the first speaker from each group on that item. Finally, I ask the Leader not to forget the request yesterday for a discussion on the Price Waterhouse report.

Mr. O'Toole

I compliment the Leader for reflecting topical issues in our business today. It is critically important that there is an appropriate forum to discuss issues such as flooding and violence. It is also a useful occasion for us to show our maturity as a race by recognising our near neighbours as neighbours. There should not be any comments which write off a whole race of people in the course of today's discussions. I look forward to an interesting day during which we will take the nation from a war footing and discuss football violence, draining the Shannon and giving legal aid to those who deserve it.

Mr. Dardis

I thank the Leader of the House for the arrangements he has made for today's business. Like other Members I wish to say something about the appalling events last night in Lansdowne Road but as time has been allocated for such remarks this is not the time to do so.

It appears that the framework document could be published, according to newspaper reports, next week. In that event can the Leader of the House assure us that we will debate Northern Ireland immediately after its publication, whether it be next week or the week after? Since the beginning of this session there have been calls for a debate on Northern Ireland. Given that this House has always taken a very balanced view on Northern Ireland and given the significance of this document, it is important that we debate it. The mood in the House was that it would be preferable to wait until the publication of the document before we debated Northern Ireland. Can the Leader of the House arrange a debate as soon as possible after the appearance of the document?

I support Senator Wright's call for a debate on the Defence Forces and on the reports by Price Waterhouse and the efficiency audit group.

Mr. Belton

I called for a debate on the Price Waterhouse report during the term of the last Government who commissioned the report. It was widely reported that eight barracks were in danger of closure as a result of the report. I am happy to say that the situation has changed under this Minister; he has reversed that decision.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Toole

We will share it between the two Ministers.

Mr. R. Kiely

The Senator is misinformed.

Mr. Norris

I support the call for a debate on the Price Waterhouse report. I am glad Senator Belton was able to save the barracks in his area. I hope we can save the Army Equitation School because it would be absolute madness to disband it particularly in the context of the horse industry.

Mr. Belton

It will be extended.

Mr. Norris

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the events of last night. I wish to make one comment now. The Sun newspaper was widely quoted as being ashamed of the behaviour of the English fans. That newspaper is one of the principal causes of such boorishness and if a finger is to be pointed at anybody it should be pointed directly at Mr. Rupert Murdoch for the way he has fanned the low element in British fans.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have an opportunity to speak on this matter later.

Mr. Lanigan

Numerous requests have been made for a debate on the reports by Price Waterhouse and the efficiency audit group. However, we are in the dark about this.

An Cathaoirleach

Obviously we are not in the dark.

Mr. Belton

Kilkenny is 100 per cent safe. Take my word for it.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Lanigan without interruption.

Mr. Lanigan

The one truism that emerged from last night's debate was that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, indicated that he would not be Minister in three years time.

Mr. Manning

There is no guillotine.

Mr. Lanigan

Can we be given a copy of the Price Waterhouse report and the report by the efficiency audit group? Everybody is talking about the report but nobody has seen it.

Mr. Belton

We could not get it from the last Government.

Mr. Lanigan

It is essential that Members of the House are given copies of the report.

Mr. Magner

Could the Leader of the House tell Senator Belton that no decision was taken by the last Government about closing any barracks?

Mr. Belton

I was referring to the report.

Mr. Magner

The report was commissioned.

Mr. Belton

That is correct.

Mr. Magner

If the day dawns that a Government is afraid to commission a report, we will have——

Mrs. McGennis

Are you falling out lads?

Mr. R. Kiely

It was a bad report.

Mr. Mooney

I am sorry to interrupt the banter on the other side of the House. Far be it for me to curb the amusing excesses taking place. On yesterday's Order of Business references were made by the Leader of the House and other Senators to the broadcasting committee and the debate on Auschwitz last week. There were criticisms of RTE which, in the circumstances and in view of the comments that were made, would have a certain justification. However, it should not have stopped there. The general reporting of that incident in the printed media fell far short of what I would have expected, particularly in the newspaper of record, The Irish Times, which is the only newspaper that reports regularly and consistently on proceedings in this House. It appeared to be very selective on this occasion.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Mooney, a question for the Leader.

Mr. Sherlock

The Cork Examiner reports regularly on this House.

Mr. Mooney

I am a member of the broadcasting committee. The committee has not met.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader will take that on board.

Mr. Mooney

Senator Magner said, correctly, that these matters should have been discussed by that committee. I appreciate that the change of Government could have delayed meetings of the committee. However, a delay of two and a half months is excessive in the circumstances especially as several other issues relevant to the broadcasting committee should be discussed. There was much comment on the transmission of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security which attracted huge television audiences. It was said that the coverage under the existing rules was extremely restrictive. That matter and others should be examined. I would be grateful if the Leader of the House would convey to the Taoiseach, who has ultimate responsibility for these committees, our wish for the broadcasting committee to be back in business as quickly as possible.

Mrs. McGennis

The Leader of the House indicated a fortnight ago that he would make copies of the Programme for Government available to Members of the House. I again ask him to make them available. We are anxious to know the Government's plans.

Mr. Magner

It is a secret.

Mrs. McGennis

A secret document? I understand so.

Mr. Neville

We will leak it to you.

Mr. Wilson

The House has wisely made the decision not to discuss the framework document until after its publication. I strongly support Senator Dardis' request that we discuss the document in this House as a matter of urgency as soon as possible after its publication.

Mr. Manning

I thank the Members on the other side of the House for their co-operation today. It is important that our debate on the events of last night should be measured and should focus on the root of the problem. To say that Irish football or the Irish people were shamed last night is totally untrue. The face of Irish football last night which was beamed around the world was the face of the young boy who stood in total amazement, bemusement and sadness. That was the true face of Irish football and the genuine supporter rather than any other image. We had nothing to be ashamed of in this regard and I look forward to our debate.

With regard to the Price Waterhouse report, I understand from the Minister for Defence that parts of the report contain sensitive military material. A report is being prepared with some urgency which will combine the main elements of the Price Waterhouse report and of the efficiency review document. The Minister hopes to have that report published in the near future.

As the framework document is a document for discussion among politicians I hope we will have a full debate on it as soon as is appropriate following its publication. I will make every effort to see that such a debate will take place.

Senator Belton's contribution was helpful.

Mr. Belton

As always.

Mr. Manning

The plea by Senator Norris regarding the Army Equitation School will fall on willing——

Mr. Magner

Deaf ears.

Mr. Manning

Not deaf ears. There has always been a great tradition of support for the Army Equitation School. Senator Magner also made a point in this respect. The points made by Senator Mooney on the question of the media are well taken. My understanding is that the committee in question has not met since the beginning of this Seanad, not the Government. Perhaps it has done so. I will pass on the Senator's concerns and ascertain if it can meet again as soon as possible.

With regard to the Programme for Government, I apologise to Senator McGennis as I forgot to distribute it. I will rectify that today.

Again, Senator Wilson's point is one which agrees with that of Senator Dardis.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to statements on the events at Lansdowne Road last night, it has been agreed that seven minutes will be allocated to the first speaker from each group and five minutes thereafter.

Order of Business agreed to.