I welcome the Minister of State to the House. Notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the time limits for the debate are as follows: 15 minutes for the Minister's speech, 12 minutes for the proposer of the motion, eight minutes for the speech of any other Senator and five minutes for the proposer to reply.
Funding for Roads: Motion.
I move:
That Seanad Éireann condemns the Government for the reduction in funding for non-national roads, and calls on the Minister for the Environment to provide additional financial allocations immediately to local authorities to deal with the rapidly deteriorating county and regional road network.
The county road network throughout the whole country is in a critical state of repair and requires urgent financial investment to prevent its further deterioration and collapse. Over the past number of years substantial additional funding has been provided by the Government to local authorities to deal with the chronic condition of the system. Some improvements were taking place and the prospect of having a decent county road network was very real. It was therefore with dismay and alarm that the allocation for this year, showing a reduction in the grants for local authorities, was received. Lack of commitment on the part of the Government to the local communities affected by dreadful road conditions is a national disgrace and must be condemned.
The crisis in the condition of the county roads is not a new development. Over a period of about ten years there has been a steady disintegration of the structure and the best efforts of local authorities have not been able to cope with the problem. A combination of increased volumes of heavy traffic, bad weather conditions and the effects of water schemes and other services — for example, the placing of telephone lines underground — has caused a rapid deterioration. In some areas this undermined an already very fragile system. Even with some maintenance and improvements, the roads were unable to stand up to the pressures. The very foundations of some roads were undermined and threatened. The rehabilitation works which are required are very expensive.
Ireland has the most extensive system of public roads in Europe: 26 kilometres for every 1,000 people. There has been a dramatic rise in terms of the volume and nature of vehicular traffic carried by our non-national roads, which account for over 94 per cent of all public roads and carry 63 per cent of all traffic. Many are used by heavy commercial vehicles, including milk collection lorries and lorries transporting animals and fertilisers. The volume of heavy agricultural machinery is also increasing. Border counties had particular problems with increased volumes of commercial and passenger traffic on minor roads due to the fact that many cross Border roads had been closed. Thankfully, there is some movement in that regard now which might alleviate the situation.
The previous Government had given a commitment in the national development plan to increase the level of funding for non-national roads. It had been planned to spend £475 million approximately on improvement works over the period of the plan. In 1994, the Government, recognising the very serious state of the county roads, provided an additional £26 million over the 1993 allocation to local authorities. Allowing for local authorities' own expenditure, the total expenditure on regional, county and urban roads in 1994 was estimated to be in excess of £160 million. The estimated figure is now somewhere in the region of £162 million. A special allocation of £15 million for maintenance was provided from the receipts of the tax amnesty. This again underlined the seriousness of the situation, the necessity to provide funding and the realisation at Government level that a serious crisis was emerging that needed to be tackled.
The former Minister for the Environment, Deputy Michael Smith, speaking in Cavan on 14 February 1994 stated: "Non-national roads are clearly a priority. Communities are themselves establishing them as a priority. The Government, backed by the taxpayers' money, has made them a priority". It is regrettable therefore that the new Government has not honoured the commitment given previously to keep a sustained level of investment over a period of years to ensure that these problems would be tackled. I urge the current Minister to make an extra allocation immediately to enable the programme planned by local authorities to proceed.
As everybody knows, the local authorities are now planning in a more reasonable way. Many of the plans which are in train and where work had already commenced are at a standstill because of the lack of financial commitment to undertake these works. If this were to continue, the whole county and regional road structure network would be seriously delayed and undermined with the prospect of more damage being done, especially in the areas which are worst hit.
It is a fact that the communities most affected by bad roads are those living in the underdeveloped areas, including the western counties, areas of great scenic attraction, the Border areas and remote and isolated local communities. Some of the areas most severely affected by the recent storms are tourist and coastal areas where some of the coastal roads are now impassable. A combination of bad weather conditions, coastal erosion and the unavailability of resources means that some roads, especially in the most scenic parts of Ireland, are totally impassable and are creating enormous problems for local communities trying to get to and from work and their businesses.
Is it any wonder that the communities in rural areas are totally disillusioned with the Government? Many people are resorting to refusing to pay their road tax and fines and are opting to go to prison in an effort to get some action and to highlight the problems with which they are faced. This is a most deplorable situation and it leads to a deep sense of inequality. With the availability of some European Union funding, people had expected that the grant allocations would be increased and that they could look forward to an accelerated programme of repairs. One can understand their grave disillusionment when the allocations were reduced.
In addition to the Government's commitments, it undertook a number of pilot schemes. These were particularly in the Border areas of Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Longford where the local residents, assisted by the local authorities, carried out minor works on county and byroads roads involving hedgecutting, the provision of minor drainage works, maintenance and the opening up of small culverts and gullets which were blocked. A vigorous campaign by the local authorities and community groups combined in a last ditch effort to try to come to grips with the problem.
I understand these pilot schemes were very successful. I compliment the Minister on that initiative and urge its continuation. In view of their success, the Minister provided, approximately, an additional £1 million last year. I suggest the results of these pilot projects could now be used by extending the scheme nationwide. There is a willingness on the part of many communities, if they could be satisfied on such issues as insurance and liability, to co-operate with local authorities and undertake necessary minor works. This would relieve the burden on local authorities in many areas and ensure the best possible use of scarce financial resources.
It is most depressing for people living with cratered and impassable roads when they look at what is happening in terms of expenditure on the national road network while the county roads collapse. A total investment of over £1.2 billion is being spent in the operational programme for national roads, with Structural Funds, Cohesion Funds and national money providing a huge financial investment in this area. By any standard, this is a substantial investment; but residents who find that their local road is deteriorating to the point of inaccessibility while huge amounts are expended on motorways, flyovers or dual carriageways are not impressed. In many cases, they are furious and very vexed.
We welcome a reasonable and realistic national roads network. However, one must question priorities when £40 million is spent on approximately 20 kilometres of the Cork-Mallow bypass while the total allocation to Cork County Council for all non-national roads this year is £9.8 million. This is an approximate reduction of £1 million in the allocation it received last year. The whole County Cork regional road network will receive less than £10 million, while a total of approximately £60-70 million will be spent on the bypass.
I welcome these important developments, but there is a similar situation regarding the Shannon-Limerick-Bun-ratty bypass. This bypass on the national route will cost approximately £13-14 million, while a parallel road serving a huge local community in the Portdrine-Cratloe area is almost impassable. It is little consolation to the local community who cannot get their children out to school without running the risk of them being soaked in the potholes and craters that now make up the Portdrine Road. I use this as an example. The very least these people can expect is that emergency attention will be given to these problems before millions are spent on bypasses and motorways.
I wish to make it clear that we support the development of the national road programme. However, I wish to put forward a proposal that a fixed percentage of allocations for such huge multi-million pound developments be set aside for local authorities to attend to the small local county roads adjacent to and serving these big projects. This would ensure that the local people living adjacent to these developments are assured of a decent road in their locality.
It is unacceptable that a huge motorway passes a housing estate or small local community, while at the same time the roads to it are impassable. There was a debate in the House recently on arterial drainage. If there are to be huge developments, such as the Bunratty-Limerick bypass, it is surely realistic to expect that a percentage of that money will be allocated to deal with roads, which serve local communities, running into those developments.
I also suggest that the pilot schemes in the Border areas be extended nationwide, with co-operation between community voluntary bodies and local authorities in matters of hedgecutting and the clearing of small culverts and drains to take surface water off the roads. This could be successfully organised by the local authorities.
It is also an opportune time to examine some control measures on the size of huge heavy articulated lorries and traffic on minor roads. I travelled behind one such vehicle the other day on my way to Dublin. I could see the whole road moving beneath the extreme weight of the huge milk tanker. Minor roads were never intended to take such loads and they are incapable of handling them. Some action must be taken on this matter.
Time and again we have drawn the attention of Ministers and the Government to the necessity to invest in roads which are used by tourists. Coastal roads in tourism areas are hit worse than others and the recent bad weather has also taken its toll. In fact, some such roads are now impassable due to coastal erosion and tidal effects. The situation is now so chronic that there is widespread fear among people in the tourism industry that huge volumes of business will be lost, with the resulting impact on communities which are already severely hit, unless something is done urgently to deal with the situation. There has already been a decline of the rural population in the most scenic areas of the west.
We have had countless opportunities to raise these issues. However, could we impress upon those who plan these works that while it is important to have a major national network capable of carrying heavy volumes of traffic as our economy develops, there are other people living in these areas. They also have rights and entitlements. Surely it is possible in the planning and design of such major infrastructural developments to give care and attention to the needs of local communities.
We do not wish to be negative in this debate. However, at this stage the general public is disillusioned with all public representatives regarding county roads. We have put forward this motion in the hope that the Government will respond generously to this crisis by making further substantial allocations to local authorities for this year to deal with the problem. The Government can no longer disregard the human misery, expense and inconvenience which bad county roads inflict on local communities. I urge the Minister to take this matter seriously and act accordingly.
It is my pleasure to second the motion proposed by Senator Daly on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. The Minister should accept the content of the motion. It sets a very bad precedent to reduce the allocations for non-national roads. This is particularly so in a year when people have experienced terrible weather conditions, with rain causing massive flooding and damage to roads.
I understand from figures available to me that £107 million was allocated by the Government in 1994 for regional and county roads. Under that heading the allocation for 1995 is £103 million, which is a £4 million reduction. This is all the more serious if one takes flooding into consideration. However, we must also be conscious of costs and inflation, and in real terms there is a reduction of £6 million in the non-national roads category in 1995 rather than £4 million, if we take inflation, increased costs and the actual reduction in funding itself into consideration, and I am being very conservative in giving a figure of £6 million. I believe that figure shows a lack of commitment by the Minister and the Government — perhaps the Minister did not have total discretion in the matter — to our non-national network.
By allowing a decrease in the funds for that category of road, the category which gets the most use, the Minister is to some extent turning his back on the people who live in outlying areas. That is a very serious thing to say but I would have to be convinced otherwise. I have looked at the allocations on a national basis and I find there is a reduction in the allocation made to every county on the western seaboard. I also looked at other areas. I welcome the increases for some of the Dublin areas but, if it was necessary to increase the funding allocated to some counties, was it not just as necessary to at least maintain the existing level of funding to other counties? Am I to understand that the Minister sees the counties whose funding was increased as being of higher priority? Do I further understand that he sees a political difference in those counties? I would not like to think that. I hope he feels that all counties should be treated equally.
We all agree that an increase in funding should be given in exceptional situations. However, if we were to look at areas where severe flooding occurred in 1995, it would appear that exceptional circumstances were not taken into consideration by the Minister in deciding allocations. The non-national roads allocation to the counties of, for instance, Roscommon, Longford, Galway and Laois, the areas which bore the brunt of the flooding from the Shannon valley area, has been reduced; there has been a decrease in the non-national roads allocation to the south Galway and Clare area also. It would appear that the Minister did not and has not to date taken into consideration or given any support to the counties that suffered so badly as a result of the recent flooding.
The motion before the House tonight clearly identifies a need for extra funds for non-national roads to each local authority. The Minister was mistaken to allow a decrease in this funding. I do not know what forces applied. I do not know what pressures the Minister was under or from where those pressures came, but he was wrong to agree a budget that reduced by £4 million the allocation to non-national roads. I reiterate that I do not consider that to be the true figure; we must take increased costs and inflation into consideration.
The Minister should respond to the motion before the House by providing extra funds for non-national roads in 1995. If this does not happen the network, bad as it is, will deteriorate even further. Hundreds of miles in the western region have suffered very badly from flooding. The small maintenance programmes by the local authorities in these areas will not maintain the fabric of those roads. A surface dressing programme is needed. The Minister should take a second look at the funding of local authorities under the heading of non-national roads and he should make a significant announcement in this regard immediately because the local roads meetings are about to take place. We have to divide the money that has been made available and it will be a futile exercise unless we receive extra funds.
I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Seanad Éireann notes the major financial commitment of the Government in supplementing local authorities own expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of non-national roads and, in particular, notes:
—the substantial level of grants provided by the Exchequer in 1995 for such roads, including:
—the £94.898 million provided in the Estimates for 1995 and
—the additional £8 million provided in the Budget, bringing the overall provision for State grants for non-national roads to almost £103 million in 1995;
—that when exceptional, once-off provisions, made in 1994 are excluded, the 1995 grant provision for non-national roads is at a record level;
—the Government's initiative in commissioning a report on the overall state of the county road system and its intention to put in place a coherent and integrated plan to achieve the necessary improvements over the next ten years."
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire go dtí an Teach. Tá sí ag éisteacht go cúramach leis an díospóireacht.
This Government has a real commitment to improving county roads. I am sure this commitment will be welcomed by the people of rural Ireland who are forced to travel on roads which are in dire condition because of continuous neglect over a number of years. The case for improving the county road network has been continuous and consistent over the last number of years. I recall in particular a submission from the General Council of County Councils, of which I happen to be a member; Senator Finneran is also a member of this prestigious body. A submission was made to the Minister for the Environment in the early 1990s in which the general council sought that the block grant be allowed to be spent at the discretion of the local authorities. The general council also pointed to the continuous and significant erosion of the amount transferred to local authorities from central Government since the abolition of domestic rates and the loss of revenue from agricultural rates and stated that those losses have jointly contributed to the precarious financial position of local authorities.
In 1992 the general council recorded in a submission its regret that the level of support grants allocated to its member local authorities for 1992 was at the same level as the allocation for 1991. The council asked the Minister to ensure that eligibility for Structural Funds assistance be included to allow work for county roads. The general council, while agreeing that the development of a proper national road structure is vital, feels that adequate funding to maintain and improve the county road network is essential.
The council asked the Minister to ensure that eligibility for Structural Funding assistance be extended to work on county roads and also asked the Minister to initiate a formal request by the Irish Government to the EU to launch a special programme funded from the portion of the EU Structural Funds reserved for Commission initiatives to assist the improvement of county roads.
The General Council of County Councils has been consistent in its representation to Governments, particularly since 1990, in seeking funding for our national county road network. The general council represents every council in the country. It is comprised of councillors from all over the country and nobody knows more about the roads than the county councillors. Regretfully, the response from Government has been negative, to say the least; otherwise we would not have the position that pertains for the county roads.
The funding problems for county roads started in 1977 with the greatest election gimmick of all time when domestic rates were abolished. Since then councils have never been adequately compensated for the loss of revenue accruing from this decision. Local authorities have survived on sufferance and on a pittance from Government. Councils are at their wits' end to maintain their current level of employment. Over the last number of years the number of workers on the roads has decreased dramatically. In County Galway the numbers have reduced from 750 to a mere 250. This has contributed greatly to the lack of work on our roads and to the current condition of the county roads.
The Government has inherited a major problem — I emphasise "inherited". The Galway county engineer, speaking at the roads estimates meeting in Galway last year, referred to the need for a rescue programme for the county and regional roads of County Galway. He quoted a figure of £12 million per annum over a number of years for county roads and £3 million for regional roads to bring the roads up to a reasonable standard. I have listened to this call from our engineer since I was elected to the council in 1985 and it has become stronger since 1988. I am sure the same tune has been sung by many other county engineers.
The county engineers have been left like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness, with the Government of the day refusing to respond to the cries of desperation. This is why we have such rapidly deteriorating county roads, as noted in the Fianna Fáil motion. The City and County Managers Association has also made many submissions over the years to Government seeking adequate funds for county roads and they have also been left crying in the wilderness with no positive response forthcoming.
Our roads are in a worse state than ever as a result of the recent rains and flooding. The increased traffic of trucks and milk lorries further exacerbates the problem of the crumbling county road system. There is a need for a complete rescue strategy and the Government is moving towards that and should be complimented for this initiative taken in its infancy. The Government is in office just 105 days today.
It seems longer.
Perhaps one day longer. I always give credit where it is due and I welcome the community road works programme initiative which came into being during the last Government's lifetime. In County Galway last year we committed £50,000 for this initiative and the efforts of community groups were matched pound for pound by the local authority. Some marvellous work was done by the community groups involved.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator may be 105 seconds over his time.
I have only started. This year we have increased our allocation to this initiative to £75,000. I hope in future councils will be given about £1 million each. If this was done the communities have the will and the enthusiasm to partake of the scheme. The Government should consider providing more funds for this satisfactory scheme.
Senator Daly referred to what the former Minister, Deputy Michael Smith, said in Cavan. I remind Senator Daly that the American poet, Walt Whitman, said that words are like leaves, they can be tossed in many directions. A lot has been said but little has been done. This Government is under no illusion about the enormity of the task and I know that a rescue strategy is being put in place to halt the further deterioration of our non-national roads, which, due to sheer neglect and lack of finance, are now in an abysmal state.
This motion allows us to touch on an issue close to our hearts, not to mention the springs of our cars. In addition to the treachery we have witnessed in the savage cutbacks in real terms in a number of counties in this allocation, I want to record my abhorrence at a suggestion which has come from the Greens in Europe, and which has been condemned by MEPs from all parties, to cut back the allocation to the road network of Ireland from the EU. This is a foolhardy and dangerous proposition.
The Green MEPs, Ms van Dyck and Mr. Langer, have apparently decided that the people of Ireland are not deserving of the same road networks as the people of Holland, Italy or any other part of Europe. They have put forward a resolution that the European Parliament should suggest that moneys which have been allocated to roads such as the N11, the Euroroute 1, would be diverted into the rail network. I raise this issue now because there is no other opportunity to do so. Members from all sides of this House and members of the Government are as concerned as I. It is outrageous that an MEP from County Wicklow is associated with a motion which, if agreed, will end the chances of a bypass around Arklow. No sane person would regard the Arklow bypass as anything other than an economic and environmental necessity. It is vital to the future economic development of the town.
I suggest that it is also vital in environmental terms, because any Member of either House, or even people from the remote outposts of the European Parliament, who have travelled on the N11 will know that one can spend one hour stuck in traffic on the main street in Arklow or, indeed, on the associated road network around the town, which is heavily congested at present. Anyone who is familiar with the traffic situation in Arklow would see that the bypass is, therefore, defensible from an environmental point of view, even if we choose to ignore economic realities, as the Greens tend to in such debates.
For generations people in Arklow have suffered from major traffic jams, which pump noxious fumes into the air. If the Greens have their way, they will be stuck with that for at least another generation. I regard the motion which the Greens put forward as foolhardy and extremely stupid, but it also borders on economic treachery. This House should have a strong view on this issue. I commend MEPs from the other parties who have come together for once to indicate the sheer stupidity of what the two Green Party MEPs representing this country are up to.
I turn now to the specific impact of the cuts in the road allocation this year. It is true there has been criticism over the years about the state of the road network and that people have made political hay about this. However, the current allocation is a scandal. In a county such as mine it represents a slap——
Senator Roche is a disgrace.
I am glad Senator Farrelly agrees that what is happening in County Wicklow is a disgrace and a scandal.
The Senator is a disgrace.
The person who was in the ministerial chair and who scurried out of here when I came in knows it is a scandal.
Senator Roche is making his election speech.
We await Senator Farrelly's contribution with glee. The 1995 road allocation for County Wicklow is £2.118 million, while last year's allocation was an inadequate £2.52 million. Most importantly, the total discretionary funds in County Wicklow this year are being subject to a punishing series of cutback in real terms and in monetary terms. In 1994 the discretionary improvement grant for County Wicklow was £630,000, while this year it has been reduced to £544,000. Last year County Wicklow got supplementary improvement grants of £100,000, which have been halved this year to £50,000. The supplementary maintenance grant for County Wicklow last year provided a much needed £445,000 for Wicklow roads. This year that figure has been reduced to £265,000. Everybody knows that every county road in Ireland has been adversely affected by the——
By the previous Minister.
——extraordinary weather over the past year. If the heckler holds his peace, we will listen to him when his turn comes.
If he has anything to say.
If he has anything to say worth listening to.
I hope Senator Roche will wait.
I am sorry the truth stings that particular gentleman. For the past five years in County Wicklow we listened to the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy McManus, hectoring year in, year out, when there were increases in discretionary grants, saying that they were not sufficient. On the first occasion she gets her hands on power we get a savage cutback of 21 per cent in real terms on last year and a 25 per cent cut back in real terms on the previous year. All we can be thankful for in County Wicklow is that she was not elevated to the full status of Minister because we would have to walk to work across the bogs.
The severity of the road cutbacks in County Wicklow can be best judged if we listen to the Minister's defence of them. I am sad she is not here to do so, but she has made it in local newspapers. She suggested, for example, that last year's improvement in road discretionary grants was once off. Figures produced today by the county management in Wicklow show that last year the total discretionary grant was £1.478 million, while this year it is £1.064 million. This year's cutback is also a cutback on the previous year when it stood at £1.446 million, on the year before that when it stood at £1.5 million and on the year before that when it stood at £1.624 million. There have been cutbacks in a county where the roads are destroyed. The county management warned us recently that some of the roads are becoming impassable The whole fabric——
It all happened in two months.
It changed on 14 December last.
——of the road network in County Wicklow needs an increase year on year.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I remind Senator Roche that he has one minute remaining.
I hope you will allow me penalty time for the idiotic interruptions. The whole fabric of the road network in County Wicklow is unique in that we have a very large number of roads which pass across upland areas and we also have the heaviest afforestation in the country — over 7 per cent of the county is in forestry roads. Some roads have reached a point where they are a danger to life and limb. The roads from Aughrim to Baltinglass are impassable.
It all happened in the past 105 days.
No, it has not, but the last Government was prepared to put money into roads year on year. On the first occasion that this shower has come to power there has been a 20 per cent cutback, which is a scandal. No amount of huffing or puffing or bluster from Senator Farrelly will hide that. The reality is visible on the roads in Wicklow.
Senator Roche is a disgrace.
The Government is a disgrace because it has nothing but abuse to offer; it cannot deal with the facts or the truth.
A great election speech.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, another Corkman, to the House. It is important that the House should discuss non-national roads. Unfortunately, this year there has been an unprecedented amount of rainfall and flooding has caused damage to roads. Many roads were like the beds of rivers for a long time and the lodging point of flood waters.
But the Government cut the allocation.
Senator Roche's party was pretty good at that when it was in power.
Large lorries from cooperatives travel along these roads. In my part of the country large fish lorries from Castletownbere thunder across roads which are unsuitable for them. A considerable amount of damage is caused as a result of this and lorries delivering oil, etc. Damage is also being done to county roads by lorries entering Coillte Teoranta plantations. These are small road roads intended for cars and tractors, but not for heavy machinery.
We must get value for money if we are to carry out a programme of repairs on roads. Temporary repairs are carried out and tarmacadam is filled into a hole in the road, but after a few days the situation is the same again. Is this value for money? We must adopt a better policy in this regard.
We need more road workers. A number of years go there was an embargo and people were made redundant, although there was plenty of work for them. It is important that these people are put back to work again on the roads. If money can be easily made available for social welfare, it should also be easy for local authorities to get their hands on money to provide work.
I am glad the Minister is preparing an overall plan. The amendment to the motion refers to a Government initiative in commissioning a report on the overall state of the county road system and its intention to put in place a coherent and integrated plan to achieve the necessary improvements over the next ten years.
Figures can be very deceiving and statistics can be switched around to say what we want them to say. In 1993 £75 million was provided for non-national roads, in 1994 £107 million was provided and this year £103 million. The 1994 amount included £15 million from the tax amnesty. If this is excluded the 1994 figure is reduced from £107 million to £92 million. There was also a supplementary allocation of £5 million in 1994. There was a real increase of 18.3 per cent this year, which is about £16 million, for non-national roads. If we do not take account of the money from the amnesty, there was an increase of 11.8 per cent, which is £11 million. We are progressing, unless somebody suggests we have another amnesty.
I compliment the Minister for giving money to national roads. I particularly welcome the money provided for the N71 from Cork to Bandon, with which the Minister is very familiar. The national routes are good value for money. We hear people continuously criticising the flyovers and motorways around Dublin. I know well, especially from the Seanad election campaign, that when one goes off those roads in counties near Dublin, the county roads are as bad as those in the more peripheral areas. In Cork, we do not have any national primary road but have the N71 running through the area. Work done on these roads is a tremendous boost to the country.
When we develop regional roads, we must take into account roads leading to fishery ports. I am very glad to see that money has been granted for the road to Castletownbere. Due to the progress being made by local fishermen in the Union Hall area, money will be provided to bring this road up to standard. This is not for the road to be admired. It is necessary for the big lorries which deliver the catches brought in there. Because of the progress also being made in Whiddy Island, I will be looking for money to develop the road from Bandon through Dunmanway to Bantry, which is the shortest route from Cork to the terminal which is being developed in west Cork. This is very welcome because it will provide employment in a town which has been starved of jobs for many years.
Many of our county roads are taking traffic which is suitable only for autobahns. Small roads which criss-cross the country are taking huge loads from coops and factories. Lime and other loads are being transported along these roads. I know the engineering staff in west Cork and the work they are doing, and they have told me that in each area these roads have been identified as ones on which money must be spent. Money for non-national and regional roads is being used to improve them and to make them more usable for existing traffic. We need a plan where materials, labour and machinery can be used wisely. If we do not make good use of the money, we will not benefit from the end results of this work.
I recommend the amendment because the money provided for these roads has increased from year to year. If we do not take account of the money from the tax amnesty, there has been natural progress. Why not have another amnesty this year?
I support the motion and deplore the reduction in the allocation to non-national roads. In the last two weeks I had to travel down the country to attend the funeral of the late councillor, Mr. Michael Sinnott. I was very lucky I did not have a car crash. I came on to a very bad part of the road so quickly that I was certain I had damaged the car. I also had to travel to Waterford. I looked at the roads as I travelled through every county. Because I am a county councillor I was very concerned about and interested in this problem. Communities live near non-national roads, not main roads.
I questioned the grant paid to South Dublin County Council. We have been told we have been given an increase this year. This is not so; in fact, there is a decrease in the discretionary improvement grant. This grant amounted to £183,000; the maintenance grant amounted to £69,000 and the supplementary grant came to £89,000. Thus a total of £341,000 was provided this year. In 1994 the total was £423,000. Yet we are told there has been an increase of £2 million for the country's non-national roads. I asked the engineers if my interpretation was correct and they said yes, that there has been a reduction in the money provided for the maintenance of non-national roads in my county area.
If we do not provide for the maintenance of these roads, we are affecting the infrastructure of each area. This is a very big issue. Only six months ago, when they were on the other side of the fence, I spoke to my Fine Gael colleagues about this and they agreed that we need more money. Now that they are in the front line, they say there has been an increase in the allocation for non-national roads.
I question the material costs of the surface dressing of roads. Over a number of years these costs have increased by 6 or 7 per cent. Is the Minister aware that the material used for surfacing roads has a natural span of only seven to eight years? Yet we are to expect this material surfacing to last for over 20 years. How can we have good byroads when no money is being provided to help resurface them? Unless we tackle the problem at the root, we will find we do not have enough money to maintain the roads.
At the moment we have a huge volume of heavy traffic on our roads. There are many excavation works because gas pipes are being laid. We also have underground cabling. All this leaves roads in such a mess that communities are outraged at the difficulties in getting from one place to another. There is no support from the Government for the development and resurfacing of roads. If we do not satisfy the local communities there will not be a community or a local authority which will not question the allocation of money for non-national roads especially in a year when we have had very serious flooding and roads deteriorated at an unprecedented rate. Anybody who watched television over the last four months will have seen the plight of the people in the west and in other rural areas.
Speaking for an urban area I have great difficulty in trying to talk to residents' meetings about the condition of urban, non-national roads. I empathise totally with the people in rural areas who are trying to handle this problem. In considering how best to tackle the huge problem of non-national roads, perhaps we should call in our county managers and discuss with them how this money can best be spent. Non-national roads are not being given priority at the moment, although they should be, and I wonder if we should not tie in levies to get co-operation in finding a way around this. The roads are in a dreadful state and there is a reduction this year.
They got an increase.
No, they did not. I am only speaking for my own South Dublin County Council. I have got my information in relation to the maintenance grant and the supplementary discretionary grant. The Minister is saying that the overall picture has increased, but the actual maintenance grant has not. I questioned it today, so I know what I am talking about. I am talking about the whole country, because I have travelled the length and breadth of it. Be it rural or urban, we have a huge problem which is not being dealt with. We are not giving priority to community or non-national roads and unless we tackle that, the collapse of infrastructure will not be taken into account in the overall development of the country.
If there were Oscars going, the Senator would be entitled to one after this. It is a pity that Deputy Michael Smith did not do something about it.
I rise to support the amendment. Ba maith liom, ar dtús, fáilte a chur roimh an Aire freisin.
Go raibh maith agat.
This debate gives us an opportunity to express a lot of frustration, and the Minister will be glad to hear comments from both sides of the House. It would be no harm if people were a bit more forthcoming with absolute figures rather than the suggestions that I hear from the far side at this stage.
What are the Cavan figures this year?
There was a once off payment of £20 million last year, and once off means once off.
How often did the Minister say it?
Indeed.
Six hundred thousand pounds — about as bad as Kerry.
Suffering from loss of memory.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Cotter without interruption, please.
Everybody in the House knows exactly what the scene was last year and to try to put a different face on it is unworthy of some people. The baseline is that when you take out the £15 million or £20 million from the tax amnesty last year and the £5 million once off discretionary payment as well, there was a substantial increase in funding for roads this year — somewhere around 18 per cent. Would the Minister say that that is enough? He certainly would not, nor do I think that anybody here would say it is enough.
Would the people of Cavan say it is enough?
It is not enough. Looking back, since 1986 at the figures for the rate support grant, which is supposed to be own resources for local authorities, I find that every year until a couple of years ago the rates support grant figures were reduced. There was some sleight of hand going on, because the Minister said he was providing more money for roads while on the other hand the allocation to county councils was being reduced, and it did not do anything for road surfaces.
Let us admit that we had years of neglect, but in many cases county councillors are not taking the matter seriously themselves. Quite a number of county councils are not increasing the amount of their own resources from last year. That is a fact, and whinging and whining at the Minister is only part of the problem. We all whinge and whine at the Minister, because in County Monaghan alone we need about £50 million to get the roads back into shape; yet we know that the Minister has not got a hope of providing that kind of resource. Cavan County Council needs a bit more, probably £55 million or £60 million, but there is no way that the Minister can provide that.
If county councillors are serious and if they want to impress the Government and the Minister, then they should put it on the line at estimates time and show that they are serious about providing their own resources to match the Government's. How many local authorities have increased their own resources by 18 per cent this year?
Kerry did.
I would love to know, but I do not have the figures. Let us try to match our efforts in every possible way. We need some sort of a world class approach to this problem.
The way things are going the World Bank will have to come and look after Cavan.
You had no proposal about it anyway.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Cotter without interruption.
This is basically a rural problem and we have to assert the right of people in rural Ireland to travel. We must recognise that they are not being let down just by the Government but by their own local authorities as well. They are being let down by us as local authority members because we are not putting our money where our mouth is with regard to the problem.
You are not.
My own county council has enormous problems arising from a small rate base of around £970,000. In other words, if we doubled the rate tomorrow morning we would only have an extra £970,000 to put into the roads. While that is a major problem for us, I question our own loyalty to the people who live in rural Ireland because this year we have not increased the amount of own resources going into the roads. Surely we have to say mea culpa because that is not an adequate response. We must look into our hearts to see whether we are spending the money properly. We have to ask ourselves whether local authorities are responding in a proper way to the dire needs of rural areas and whether we are doing our best in all areas of work?
In Monaghan and Cavan, but Monaghan in particular, we have intensive farming, which is not found anywhere else in Ireland. Many small mushroom and poultry units are dispersed throughout the county which bring a lot of traffic along small roads. In addition, milk tankers and deliveries of meal to poultry farms causes further road problems.
The Minister should take note that we also need to see a peace dividend on the ground. Now that we have opportunities, we are taking steps to develop tourism in the Border counties. We have had no tourism there up to now because we were reckoned to be in the war zone. However, we cannot develop tourism unless we get an injection of funding to open hotels and other facilities for people. The Government will have to release funding for the Border counties under the heading of tourism. There is great untapped potential to develop tourism and to increase our rates base to give everybody a better lifestyle and increase employment levels. The Minister should keep that in mind when he has discussions with the Government because it is one area in which we have fantastic growth potential. We must grasp the opportunity and not let it pass.
Traditionally we did not worry about the issue because we did not have any tourists and there was no point in putting money into an area where you would get no return. Now we will have a return, but only if people come on a regular basis. In many cases the conditions of the roads are bad and if fourists were to travel them once, they would not return. I appeal to the Minister to let us see a peace dividend on the ground — a practical input which everybody can see as part of the peace dividend. We are opening up our rivers, lakes and all our amenities to tourists. We are happy that money is there for marketing and we are using it. I support the Minister is his efforts. This year we got a 5 per cent increase in our rates support grant, which is the largest support we have had in that area for a long time.
And a 15 per cent cut in the roads grant.
(Interruptions.)
It will catch on between now and the by-election.
Since 1986 the rate support grant year after year——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask the Senator to conclude.
Senator Roche should be serious about his attempt to get a seat in Wicklow and should be honest about matters.
I wonder who will organise the convention.
I am delighted to have the opportunity to address the House on this important issue. As Members of the House will, no doubt, be aware, a motion couched in similar terms was debated recently in the other House. It is inevitable, therefore, that this debate will cover much of the same ground and that similar arguments — for and against — will be put forward. I would like, however, in the short time which is available to me to begin, as the Minister of State, Deputy Allen, did in the Dáil, by robustly rejecting the contention that funding for non-national roads has been reduced by the Government. The reality is that when certain exceptional, nonrecurring elements are removed from the 1994 grants package, the 1995 grants will be seen to be up, not only on the underlying 1994 level but up on any previous year.
Creative accounting.
The Senator's party were very good at that; they always got it wrong.
I remember arguing for funding last year from the tax amnesty; we do not have a tax amnesty every year. As Minister for Health, I managed to get £100 million from the tax amnesty to give to the health boards to clear debts. The health boards do not expect that £100 million to be available again. Let us be realistic about a real issue and a real problem. From the files of my Department I have a letter from the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern, to the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Michael Smith, making it explicit that this is a once off allocation of money and should be treated——
At least he fought for the money, which is more than the Minister is doing.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Minister, without interruption.
——and understood on that basis.
We can fill in the potholes with the reports.
Some of us are serious about achieving things in public life, others are only interested in making a name for themselves.
The Government, as I will outline, is well aware of the problems affecting our non-national roads and has already made two significant responses to deal with these problems. The Government has provided additional funding in the budget and has also asked — which is a very important issue — for a comprehensive report on the state of the network so that a proper plan can be put in place and implemented over a reasonable period of time.
I have approached every task which has befallen me in the two and half years since I became a Minister by identifying and analysing the problem and then coming forward with a comprehensive solution. I have managed reasonably well to deal with a range of intractable issues which had been on the agenda for many years.
I would like to come directly to the question of the 1995 grants to local authorities for non-national roads. These grants amount to almost £103 million, or over £1,900 for every single mile of network. This level of funding represents a very significant contribution on behalf of the State.
While the funding for non-national roads in 1995 may well compare unfavourably with expenditure in 1994, the overall 1994 allocation of £107 million included, as I said, an additional £15 million provided from the tax amnesty receipts. The source of this funding was accepted to be a once off benefit to the Exchequer and a categorical assurance was given at the time that this windfall for the Exchequer would not affect the underlying pattern of spending. That reassurance, as I said, was given by the then Minister for Finance, who is now the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Bertie Ahern.
The Senators here did not read it.
It is not traditional to circulate letters in the House.
The special once off nature of the 1994 grants was further recognised by the fact that they were allocated as separate and distinct categories of grants to county councils rather than being absorbed into the general pool of discretionary grant moneys. Besides, in making these separate allocations, local authorities were required to apply these moneys to categories of works and/or types of works, thereby further distinguishing these moneys from the normal discretionary grants which were made available to them.
If one excludes the additional £15 million provided in 1994, a very different picture emerges in that overall expenditure on non-national roads is seen to be up. For comparison purposes I will include the three years 1993, 1994 and 1995 and the relevant moneys in these years amounted to £75.3 million, £92 million and £102.898 million respectively. This means that the 1995 allocations are up by nearly £11 million, or almost 12 per cent, on the underlying 1994 expenditure figure, and up by nearly £28 million, or over 36 per cent, on the 1993 figure, which the Senators opposite were happy to support.
Could the Minister say how those figures were calculated?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Minister, without interruption.
He is making spurious——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator had his opportunity to speak.
The Senator is the greatest waffler who ever came into this House.
A further point of relevance here is that much play has been made of the fact that the funding for INTERREG II has been included in the overall grant moneys for 1995, with the implication that without this source of funding the 1995 grants would compare even more unfavourably with 1994. Again, this is simply not the case. When one excludes the additional £15 million and the INTERREG II funding, the 1995 allocation is still greater than the grants paid in 1994. Whether certain Members choose to accept this or not, this is the reality.
On the issue of overall resources, let me also say that it is premature for the House to make any definitive judgment about how the 1995 finances for non-national roads compare with the 1994 position. The motion before the House is not comparing like with like but instead is comparing the final expenditure figure for 1994 with the initial provision for 1995. As the experience of 1994 shows, any judgment at this stage as to the year's final expenditure is speculative.
I should point out here that the Government accepts that the non-national road network is of particular economic importance in Ireland and that it is vital that we improve the system. However, the task of upgrading our county and regional roads places a particularly heavy responsibility and financial burden on our society as we have a very extensive system of public roads by European standards. For example, for each 1,000 population we have over three times as many kilometres of road as in Italy, the Netherlands or Spain. This, combined with the low density of our population and our relatively low level of urbanisation, inevitably means that maintaining our road system in general, and the non-national element in particular, creates very significant demands on our resources.
The overall situation has been worsened in recent months by the extraordinary levels of rainfall in areas such as south Galway which has caused widespread damage and distress. As the House will be aware, an interdepartmental committee has been established to co-ordinate the Government's response to the bad weather. However, insofar as flood damage to roads is concerned, I must point out that the cost of remedial works to non-national roads as a result of flooding and storm damage must be met by local authorities from their own resources, supplemented by the discretionary grants paid by my Department. The general conditions governing these grants require local authorities to provide a contingency sum from their overall allocations so as to finance road restoration works which may be necessitated by extreme weather conditions.
However, notwithstanding the foregoing, the Government decided, following my intervention, to increase the allocation for non-national roads provided in the abridged estimates by an additional £8 million as part of its budget strategy. The extra funding includes £4 million as an immediate response to the unsatisfactory condition of county roads which has been further aggravated by the recent bad weather. The allocations to local authorities for 1995 take account of these additional funds. It is a matter for each authority to determine its work programme, including remedial works, having regard to the overall resources available to it.
Leaving aside for the moment, however, the financial dimension, there have been a number of important changes in key circumstances in recent years which have affected our non-national roads and which, taken together, strongly suggest that the time has come for an overall appraisal of the network and a planned approach to where we are going for the future. I would now like to detail a number of these factors.
There has been a huge increase in recent years in the volume and nature of the traffic using our non-national roads. Many of these roads are carrying traffic loads greatly exceeding their limited capacity. These loads arise, for example, from bulk milk tankers, oil delivery vehicles, timber extraction operators, heavy agricultural machinery, lorries carrying agricultural produce, such as beet and grain as well as traffic serving industry.
Very little of the regional and county road system was designed or purpose built. Most of the network has water-bound macadam, broken stone or gravel bases over which one or more surface dressings have been provided to seal the surface and prevent water penetration. Many county roads have only received one surface dressing. The width of much of the network is inadequate to accommodate a heavy goods and an opposing vehicle, with the result that large vehicles overrun the pavement and cause severe damage to its support.
The situation again has been aggravated by EU directives which provide for increased vehicle axle weights and dimensions. Goods vehicles over eight tonnes have increased four fold in the last 30 years and are believed now to account for over 90 per cent of road pavement damage. The consequences of increasing vehicle weights and axle loadings are to accelerate the process of damaging road surfaces and bridges. particularly on roads having little structural capacity to withstand such loadings.
Weather and ground conditions both affect road conditions. Freezing and thawing cycles can break up perished or cracked road surfaces and cause total foundation failure. Many rural roads have no satisfactory drainage arrangements and water penetration through cracked surfaces which are not drained leads quickly and progressively to potholes and major road damage. The large reduction in essential maintenance operations, such as surface dressings and the clearing of drainage outlets as a result of cutbacks over the years in local funding and reductions in maintenance operations, particularly following the voluntary redundancy/early retirement scheme of some years ago, has exacerbated all of the above problems and accelerated the decline in the condition of regional and county roads. These facts present a huge issue for us to address nationally.
Because of all of these factors, the Government has asked for a report to be prepared as a matter of urgency on the overall state of our county roads, including changed traffic patterns, methods used for repair, future planning, etc. The aim will be to put before the Government an up to date review of the state of the network, the extent and nature of the problems and the cost implications of bringing the network up to an acceptable standard over the next ten years. I can assure the House that this will be a major job. When this report is available to the Government — I expect this to be in about two months time — the question of funding will be considered further. The Government is fully committed to improving our county roads system and when it has an opportunity to consider the overall situation, a realistic plan will be put in place to achieve this. The financial implications of the plan will be an integral part of the exercise and the Government will play its part in ensuring that this plan can be properly implemented.
I do not underestimate this task. We have allowed black topping to be put on roads that were never properly built in the first place. They are not designed for and cannot cope with the traffic volumes and widths that they currently have. It is not a matter of adding an extra few million pounds to non-national roads. I am acutely aware that if I had allocated £109 million or an extra £2 million over last year's figure — £6 million over what had actually been allocated — instead of £103 million, there may not have been a row in this House tonight. I put my hand on my heart and invite Senators to examine it here. The number of potholes and the road system would be exactly the same. We have major problems — I see some people are shaking their heads. Senators are deluding themselves if they think an extra £5 million to £8 million will solve this problem. The problem goes far beyond that and it is one that all of us, as a society, will have to address if we are to maintain the fabric of rural Ireland and the network of roads that are required to maintain a rurally based population.
On the question of funding, it is imperative that local authorities too maintain their own commitment to investment in the maintenance and improvement of non-national roads and that the very substantial contribution of the State is not used by them as an excuse to reduce funding from their own resources. State grants are provided to supplement local authorities' own resources, not to replace them. In this connection, road authorities are spending from their own resources at the same general level, in money terms, as they spent in the early 1980s. If central Government was spending that amount, there would be a paltry amount of money available to deal with the roads. The real value of this expenditure has been reduced clearly by inflation in the interim.
We have also seen a dramatic shift in the balance of funding for non-national roads since 1986, which was not that long ago. In that year, grants from central Government accounted for one third of total expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of these roads. That is an interesting fact. In 1995, the State's contribution stands at over 63 per cent.
A further factor here is that there are wide variations among county councils in the provisions they make in their estimates for maintenance and improvement work on regional and county roads. On a cost per mile basis, excluding Dublin authorities whose large expenditure levels would distort the situation, county councils' spending ranges — this is an interesting fact — from £165 per mile in one county to over £1,500 per mile in another. Since I have been asked in previous fora to name these counties, I will. I understand that the provision from the resources of Longford County Council this year is £165 per mile while Meath County Council were providing £1,584 per mile from its own resources.
We put our money where our mouth is.
Similarly, on the lower level, Laois County Council allocated £238 per mile, Leitrim County Council £208 and Sligo County Council £216. At the other end of the scale, councils like Meath County Council have allocated £1,500 plus per mile, Wicklow County Council £1,442 and Wexford County Council £1,058.
Is County Clare on that list?
Clare County Council allocated £998 per mile.
What about County Donegal?
I will circulate this list to any interested Member. Donegal County Council allocated £729 per mile.
I would appeal to local authorities to provide realistically for the maintenance and upkeep of county roads in particular. Some of the counties that are most vociferous in demanding extra resources from the Exchequer are the least forthcoming in prioritising it in their own expenditure and that question has to be answered at local level. Not all counties are in the same comfortable position to provide money and that has to be understood, but it also depends on the priority that local councils make.
Senator Ormonde talked about the poor allocation made to South Dublin County Council. I was very conscious of giving such a tremendous increase to the Dublin local authorities. Last year, the total non-national road allocation to South County Dublin was £1.148 million. This year, this allocation was £2.968 million; an increase of 159 per cent.
I think she was confused.
Finally, I must comment on the fact that the impression has been given that responsibility for the poor state of our non-national roads should be laid at the door of the present Government. This is a specious argument if ever there was one. The Government has been in office for just over three months. Every schoolboy and schoolgirl in the country would be expected to know that road surfaces deteriorate very slowly over a long period.
What about allocations?
Waffling.
I know there is a by-election pending and people can get excited, but there is a real national issue to be addressed on non-national roads. We can all score points — that is part of the game we play — but if we are genuinely interested in doing something fundamental about this problem, it will not be solved by a debate here or even by an additional allocation of £10 million or £20 million, but by a comprehensive analysis of the problem in all its components and by providing a comprehensive solution on a multi-annual basis that will be supported on a cross party basis for whichever Government, of whatever hue, will govern this country for the next ten years, because that is the scale of the problem and it is the scale of the solution also.
The Minister will not find any deficiency on this side of the House in that regard.
What this means is that the current state of the network reflects ongoing under-investment over a considerable number of years. In this connection, I will not cause embarrassment to any Members of the House by reminding them which party has been in power for the longest period over the last ten years. If political blame is to be apportioned, I suggest that the culprits are other than those currently in Government.
In conclusion, I put it to the House that the Government's commitment to the non-national road network is beyond question. This has been clearly demonstrated by the actions which the Government has taken by way of allocating very significant resources to these roads and taking steps to get an overall picture of the problem and of what must be done to really get to grips with it.
I believe the House will agree that the Government is acting reasonably and responsibly. It is very hard to constantly listen to demands for more funding while at the same time the Government is castigated by the Leader of the Opposition for being spendthrift and profligate with money——
He was talking about the Government's special advisers.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Minister without interruption. Senator Roche had his opportunity earlier.
The Minister cannot argue both ways.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator is offside. The Minister to conclude without interruption.
Senator Roche and I know each other for a long time.
Will the Minister be at the convention?
(Interruptions.)
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I must ask Members to allow the Minister to conclude without any further interruption, because they are preventing other Members from having an opportunity to contribute to the debate.
I was born and reared only a matter of yards away from Senator Roche and I am familiar with him for some time. In fact, I was quite shocked, when opening a health centre in County Wicklow last year, to be advised by the good Senator that we were relatives.
Very distant.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
And the distance may even grow over the next few weeks. The Minister to conclude without any further interruption.
I have examined my family tree——
Is the Senator looking for a few transfers?
Will the Minister disown the Senator again?
I urge Senators to reflect on the seriousness of the issues before us. The response of Government has been constructive, positive and comprehensive. This problem will not be solved in a day, a week or a month, but it will be solved with determination once the analysis of the problem is completed and the plan put into place. I have no hesitation in commending the amendment to the motion to the House.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Six Members have indicated that they wish to speak. There are 20 minutes remaining and to ensure that all Members offering have an opportunity to contribute I ask that speakers confine themselves to three minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed. I call on Senator Honan.
I welcome the Minister to the House. I am pleased to have had the opportunity to listen to his reply to the motion before I spoke, because I welcome many aspects of it. The main issue raised by constituents today is the condition of the county roads and the belief that, instead of getting better, they are deteriorating. The proliferation of potholes and the year in, year out bad state of repairs is a constant torment to many people living in rural Ireland and they believe, whether true or not, that this issue is not being taken seriously at central Government level.
Most people would wish, once and for all, to try to bring our roads up to an acceptable level and maintain them at that level. I had hoped that there would be a major injection of funds over the next three to five years, but I accept from the Minister's remarks that this will be done over a ten year period, which is quite a long time. However, if we were assured that it would be done, with the problem finally resolved, people, being reasonable, would be willing to accept this; but they must have confidence that it will be done.
I accept also that the national primary roads are receiving substantial funding and that the improvement in their condition and the by-passes and so on going around the major towns is welcomed. However, the majority of people do not spend their time travelling the main roads of Ireland, and going about their daily activities they encounter roads which they consider to be unfit for use. We have tended to pay lip service to people living in rural Ireland, and the state of our roads is causing many problems for business people, farmers, school children and so on. I accept the Minister's acknowledgment that the Government accepts that the non-national road network is of particular economic importance in Ireland and that it is vital that we improve the system.
Talking to people about rural development and renewal is a nonsense unless we are prepared to put our money where our mouth is and address the problem once and for all. Last year, the former Minister for the Environment, Deputy M. Smith, said that if county councils and engineers prepared a plan for major work on the roads over a period, the Government would be prepared to fund this if it believed that it would finally solve the problem. However, I am worried that the level of funding required by the local authorities appears to be at huge variance with what the Government seems to be prepared to dedicate to county roads.
In the past few years there has been a shift away from specific improvement grants for remedial works and this has been done to maximise the drawing down of money from Europe, which is understandable. However, it has taken money away from repair work in general and while some beneficial work is being undertaken in certain areas, enough money is not available to, as the Minister said, regain the ground that has been lost from under-funding in the past. County councils are losing ground on the maintenance of the remainder of the network after they have looked after these specific areas.
There were improvements in the early 1990s, but there appears to have been a shift in emphasis and the effect of it was masked by the tax amnesty. I accept the Minister's assertion that as a country we probably have too many public roads and that there are too many roads in the charge of local authorities. However, we must grasp the nettle of funding local authorities properly, of telling people that the roads will be brought up to a certain level and that they will then have to take care of them. We cannot pretend that we are adequately funding them if we are not doing so.
I accept the Minister's remarks regarding the funding of local authorities, but will he consider the whole problem of their funding and be honest with the people? If we cannot afford to do things, tell them; but there should not be any measures such as fiddling with the service charges and attempting to tell people that they do not have to pay them and they will not be cut off, because that is unfair. It is only further increasing a dependency culture and making people believe that the Government has money to do everything when clearly it has not.
In his statement the Minister acknowledges the position with regard to many rural roads and advises on the commissioning of a report on the overall state of the roads and so on. I read a booklet issued by the Minister's Department in 1993-94, and if the provisions of the 1994 Act are implemented, the Minister will go a long way towards improving the county and regional roads. In the latter months the amount of water deliberately drained onto the public roads is nothing short of scandalous. It is a danger in many instances and it is causing a grave deterioration in the condition of the roads. The councils do not appear to be able to do anything about it.
The year 1988-89 was the year of fiscal rectitude. It was also the year when the county council's workers, including clerical and technical staff, were all cleared out. There is hardly anybody left to do anything. If the local authority does not have its eight or nine groups of men working on the county road system, whatever expenditure it invests will not be successful. The road system must be maintained.
The establishment of the National Roads Authority resulted in a two tier system to some extent. There appears to be substantial expenditure on our national primary and secondary roads. I am sure the Minister is sincere in seeking equality. My local authority previously made a submission on how local authorities could employ more people, without incurring any great extra costs, by taking the social welfare system into account. I have given an updated copy of that document to the Minister for Social Welfare. Consultation and dialogue might be helpful.
Senator McGowan has three minutes, as was agreed by the House.
I have been waiting for a while. I will be as brief as possible but it will be nearly impossible to do justice to my county. The Minister is aware of the problem in rural Ireland. Regardless of the slant or language we use in this House, the people in rural Ireland know the situation as well as we do. The Minister's finances at the end of 1994 were as good as they were at the end of 1993. If he says that he must reduce the sum——
The tax amnesty.
That will not wear.
Fianna Fáil will not wear it.
I did not interrupt anybody.
Senator McGowan without interruption. The Senator should address the Chair and get on with the motion.
We have a real problem and I will not make it worse here. My county received £0.5 million from the national road allocation of £112 million for a bypass of Donegal town. We will not be able to spend that. The Border counties of Cavan. Monaghan, Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo and Mayo have suffered most. The Government recently announced a special allocation for Border roads, which is once off funding, that——
Be accurate.
I will not have an argument with the Minister; I would rather make my few remarks. Out of that special allocation of EU funding my county received £965,000. That is a false figure——
Do you not want it?
We certainly do, although it is not enough. We are being embarrassed by the British rebuilding roads right up to the Border and we are unable to match them. We can only match them in language, unfortunately. My county is embarrassed. The county manager in the manager's report has included INTERREG funding of £1, 617,000. However, that is maybe money — it is not there.
It is real money.
I wish to differ; it is not there now. The paper money has not arrived. Special Border funding was announced as a bonus to the small rural communities which suffered as a result of the closure for 25 years of the Border roads. The special funding was allocated to recover the routes. However, even after taking that into consideration the INTERREG funding, we are still short of funds. To add insult to injury, £0.5 million is being given to my county out of £112 million being allocated to the National Roads Authority. We are embarrassed.
I do not wish to support a motion in order to condemn anybody. That is negative thinking. I must do it, however, to focus on the importance of the motion. I would rather appeal to the Minister. I disagree with his comment that another couple of million makes no difference. It makes a serious difference to those counties at a loss. My county manager is worried for two reasons. I do not wish to change the debate, but I appeal to the Minister on this matter. It will cost the Minister and his party more in votes than he thinks.
Play it again, Sam.
That is what we are doing.
I sat here all night and did not interrupt anybody. If the Acting Leader has nothing better to contribute than constant interruptions, it is a sad day for the party he represents.
Senator McGowan must speak to the motion.
Let us be positive about this.
Senator McGowan without interruption.
On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, the rest of us would like to contribute.
Absolutely. I am trying to bring the Senator to a quick conclusion.
I have sat here all night and I will take a couple of minutes.
It was agreed with the Leas-Chathaoirleach that Members would have three or four minutes each.
This motion was put down by this party.
The House agreed on certain time limits for the remaining speeches.
We agreed to nothing.
The House agreed.
It is obvious that Senator McGowan does not want any of us to speak.
Make your final point, Senator McGowan.
I am appealing to the Minister. He did an excellent job in the Department of Health. He was helpful to rural Ireland when finance was needed. I want the Minister to tackle this matter with the same attitude. He should not look over his shoulder on this issue. The Minister is paying a price in rural Ireland today; I do not think he fully realises the price he will pay.
I welcome the Minister. I do not understand where Senator McGowan is coming from. Recently Donegal received over £10 million for both national, primary and secondary roads and for non-national roads. The allocation for Donegal this year is up £700,000 on the 1994 figure. That represents an increase of 14 per cent. It was unbelievable how quiet the county council meeting was on Monday. I have been at such roads meetings before and this one was the quietest I have ever attended.
The Senator should come to Kerry.
When the allocation was announced on 8 March, a young doctor in my town who is a TD welcomed the allocation. He has not opened his mouth since. Recently a local TD and MEP said that we are swindling the money from the INTERREG funds. However, he has had to retreat on that matter because it was discovered that he was wrong. A former Senator from the county spoke confusedly on the radio yesterday. First he said that we were down £2 million but by the time he finished his statement he said that we were down £1 million. He has a problem with his figures as well.
The grants to the Border counties represent a figure of £2,400 per mile for every mile of non-national road. The corresponding figure for other counties, excluding Dublin, is £1,600 per mile. We have done well out of this. Without the tax amnesty, which was a once off figure last year, the figure for 1994 would have been £92 million. The allocation for this year, 1995, is increased to £103 million in total. I welcome the allocation for Border roads, which is almost £1 million. Donegal will receive £1.6 million from a total of £6 million in INTERREG funding. That is almost one third of the total allocation this year.
I welcome what the Minister has done for Donegal. We will never be entirely satisfied — we would all like to get more. Deputy Noel Dempsey, in an article in the Irish Independent on 16 March, pointed out that Donegal received £6.185 million for 1994, while in 1995 the county was allocated £6.899 million. If that is a reduction, somebody is fooling themselves.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this matter. Listening to some speakers, one would believe that this problem happened overnight on 19 December 1994, but it has been with us for about 20 years. Successive Governments, including the Fianna Fáil minority Government from 1987-1989, the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government from 1989 to 1982 and the last Fianna Fáil-Labour Government, have not dealt with it directly. I am delighted the Minister and the Government have decided to put together a plan to discover what the problem is and to come up with a solution. All the money in the world would not solve the problem under the present system.
I have said publicly before and have no hesitation in saying again that 7p on a gallon of petrol would collect £50 million for this purpose; 85 per cent of the responses to this suggestion, which I made on RTE Radio a fortnight ago, have been positive. Taking into consideration the cost per 10,000 miles of running an average family car, such a levy would cost in the region of £35 a year. The majority of people running cars are spending much more than that on parts, tyre repair and other problems arising from the roads. I discussed this matter at my first meeting with the Taoiseach since he went into office. He is deeply concerned about this problem and wants a plan put in place so that whatever money the Government provides is spent properly. Some of the money spent has been wasted.
That is a serious statement the Senator has just made.
There are problems such as drainage and, for example, up to three milk tankers from different co-ops travelling on the same road to different farmers. These must be tackled because we do not have a road network to deal with that traffic flow.
When this plan is put in place we can re-examine the allocation given last year, taking into account the tax amnesty. Listening to my colleague in the other House, the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Environment. Deputy Dempsey, one would believe no local authority in the country received any funds this year, for housing or anything else. He said this evening that the local authority structure has fallen to pieces. Does he know the position in rural Ireland in 1995? Has he forgotten that he has only been out of office for three months? Was he not aware of the problems rural people have?
I look forward to the report which will be presented to the Cabinet and to supporting the plan which will be put in place. As a Senator and an elected local authority member, I am prepared to back the Government's proposals, even one to raise extra finances to deal with the problem. Some £96 million went into State coffers last year from the lottery. One sector of the health budget received £35 million of that and £11 million of that was spent building hospitals, although it was never meant for that. There is nothing to stop substantial funding from the lottery being given for two or three years to solve the county roads problem. I have listened to seven Opposition speakers and have not heard one proposal to solve the problem.
The Senator did not listen to everyone.
Senator Farrelly without interruption.
When they are prepared to come forward with suggestions I would love to hear them.
We did put forward proposals.
There were no proposals. There was nothing worth hearing.
He did not listen anyway, he was constantly interrupting. He was disgraceful.
He turned the debate into an arrogant exchange.
I welcome the Minister. I welcome the debate but I am disappointed I have only three minutes. I listened with interest to the speakers. If one was to say some local authorities were not pulling their weight one would have to justify it. My county was one of the first to introduce service charges, and not alone for water and refuse. It was the first to introduce a sewerage charge to supplement the Government grants.
The Minister's speech seemed to be rather defensive. There was much juggling of figures to justify the reality. There is a problem and the Minister knows it. The county roads are falling apart, no matter who is in Government. My party was in power with the Minister's party for a period and I continually brought up the state of the county roads. It is particularly serious in County Kerry, which depends on tourism. An extra £1.8 million came to Kerry from the tax amnesty and was put to good use. We started rebuilding the roads, not just refilling the potholes. We have restructured the county roads in half mile stretches. The then Government gave us a guarantee that this would be ongoing and that we could continue over a three to four year period while the money was coming from Europe, so we could get the county roads back in shape.
Those roads are tarred only once every 40 to 50 years. When I first was on the county council, one could expect the roads to be retarred on an eight year cycle. That means the road falls apart in between. One can use the weather or heavy traffic or any other excuse for the state of the roads, and they all have an effect, but the Minister is in a position of power. He is in a difficult position but he has to handle the matter and do something about it.
Money will have to be found. Although some people say money will not solve the problem, it has to be given. Any tourist who comes to Kerry this year and sees the position of the roads will get a bad impression of the county. He will see we have lovely hotels, great facilities and beautiful scenery, but terrible roads. He will wonder what we are doing. Moneys will have to be transferred between the Departments to be put into the county road network.
Has the Senator a proposal?
I have and I can show the Minister many places where he can get money. In the last budget the banks were given back about £15 million. Those are the fat cats from whom the Government should have taken more money. If I was in a position of power I would have put extra taxation on the banks, because they have reduced their workforces and have done nothing for the betterment of Ireland. By imposing exorbitant charges in rates, they have only taken what they can from people who are trying to develop the country. It was the banks who were given tax breaks in the budget, but the money should be taken from them and put into county roads.
The amount of money involved is small. The Tánaiste, the leader of the Minister's party, comes from my county, which suffered a reduction of £500,000. If we were given an extra £150,000 we could do a great deal, because it could be spent on materials and on real work. As the Minister knows, a certain amount must be spent for operational purposes, but any extra money can be seen to be of use.
Something must be done about the roads. I appeal to the Minister because he comes from a rural area. He is lucky to be driving a fine car, but if he was in a small boneshaker he would know exactly what the roads are like — they are in a deplorable state. The weather conditions, heavy milk trucks and other things cause problems, but it is the Minister who must solve them. We cannot solve them; we can only nudge him in the right direction.
Kerry has the best roads in the country.
I was disappointed with the discretionary grant for Kerry, although they were happy in Donegal.
We did very well.
The meeting in Kerry last Monday week was not like the one in Donegal; there was a heated argument all day long. About 95 per cent of council time at the last meeting was spent on country roads. Even the Minister's party voted for the whole discretionary grant to be spent on county roads this year; only two Fine Gael councillors were against it. That shows the seriousness of the position in Kerry. We have to look at the structure and the fabric of the country. We have spent millions building up the tourism business. We have people abroad trying to bring tourists into this country.
Senator Kiely, I must tell you again——
We are building new airports and massive runways while our county roads are falling apart.
Your time is up.
The Minister should go back to the drawing board. He helped out the health boards when they were in financial trouble and he is to be complimented for that. If he wants advice from us, I would love to meet and give it to him.
I will be brief because everything that needed to be said has been said. There is no point in denying the fact that we are all short of money for roads this year. It is a serious problem. I am a little disappointed with the Minister, because when he was in the Department of Health he did a masterful job. I had the pleasure of congratulating him publicly on many occasions for the work he did.
I am only in the job three months. Give me a break.
He will do the same here.
I am a little disappointed. He did something in the Department of Health which he might do for county councils. Health boards were in debt. We came out badly in the north west because we were not far enough in debt. However, those that were in debt got extra money to pay off their debts and take them out of the grip of the banks. We were paying about £300,000 a year in bank charges. If the Minister could solve those problems, we would have £300,000 more to spend on roads. Much of the money we raise goes to pay bank debts. The Minister should look at the councils in that regard as many of them are in debt.
The Minister for Social Welfare is talking about selling off housing loans. What about selling off some housing loans and giving the money to the council to pay the banks and clear their overdrafts? That is one positive way in which the Minister could be remembered as doing a good job for local authorities. We talk about promoting tourism. We should also put a statutory charge on forestry, because forestry trucks are causing much damage and we cannot recoup the money. The Minister could do something positive to ensure they pay and repair the roads they have damaged.
I appeal to the Minister to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for roads. We are down a lot of money in Sligo as is every other county. We depended on INTERREG money as a little shot in the arm every year. The INTERREG money was great in the Border counties. We will not get that this year because it is built into the national finances. That is a retrograde step and I appeal to the Minister to look at it. In the North they are building concrete roads and so on with money from Europe. We have to do everything through the Minister for Finance. Every council should get its share of the European money directly. Far too much of it is spent on administration. The Minister should make arrangements for every local authority to get its money directly.
Local authorities are doing and would do a good job. When county councils were running the health boards they were told they were not doing a good job. Look at the job they were doing with a paltry amount of money. How many millions have we ploughed into the health boards since? Are we getting the same return? We are downgrading councils, but councils did a good job over the years.
The Minister should introduce a Supplementary Estimate. He should provide that European money would go directly to each county council and avoid them having to go through this bureaucratic machine, where every time a wheel moves a cog it costs hundreds of thousands of pounds. I appeal to the Minister to make those few amendments and especially to introduce a Supplementary Estimate. I appeal to him to at least give every council what they got last year. It still will not be in line with inflation and we will still be down. It is important that the Minister does this.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 22.
Tá
- Belton, Louis J.
- Burke, Paddy.
- Calnan, Michael.
- Cashin, Bill.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Cregan, Denis (Dino).
- Doyle, Joe.
- Maloney, Seán.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Neville, Daniel.
- O'Sullivan, Jan.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Gallagher, Ann.
- Henry, Mary.
- Howard, Michael.
- Kelly, Mary.
- Lee, Joe.
- McDonagh, Jarlath.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Townsend, Jim.
- Wall, Jack.
Níl
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Dardis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Honan, Cathy.
- Kelleher, Billy.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Don.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulcahy, Michael.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Ormonde, Ann.
- Roche, Dick.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Cosgrave and Wall; Níl, Senators Mullooly and Finneran.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
When is it proposed to sit again?
Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.