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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 May 1995

Vol. 143 No. 4

Road Traffic Bill, 1995: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

I wish to raise again with the Minister some points I made on Second Stage. I do not propose to repeat my arguments in detail. I asked the Minister to consider amending the Bill to permit the courts a measure of discretion in relation to the lower category of between 81 and 100 milligrammes. I made my argument under three headings. I said that as a matter of principle it is not helpful that the Oireachtas continuously makes laws providing for mandatory penalties and leaving the courts with no discretion. No two cases are ever the same. The purpose of the courts is to administer justice on the basis of the facts and evidence presented to them. As a matter of principle, I believe it is wrong to provide for mandatory penalties. I do not expect to be successful in having my proposal apply to the full range of penalties but it could be applied to the lower levels. The Minister of State dealt with that to a certain degree this morning. He said that mandatory sentences for drunk driving have been provided in legislation since about 1962.

My second point related to insurance cover. Experience has shown that when an endorsement or a driving ban has been imposed insurance companies have been applying insurance cost increases of between 100 and 150 per cent over a five year period. The Minister for State's answer was under two headings. He said that an increase in insurance costs was a recognised penalty and that a person must be conscious that he or she runs such a risk. That is one argument. However, that is no justification, particularly when there is no accident involved, for the insurance company imposing such penal increases. The Minister of State went on to say that another Minister of State is establishing a commission to look at the question of the cost of motor insurance in general.

The Minister of State did not refer to my third point, which dealt with those engaged in an errand of mercy. There must be discretion where such people are concerned. I mentioned the various categories yesterday. I offered my county as being a typical example of many rural counties. In west Clare one is 70 miles from a general hospital. Basically, one is 70 miles from an ambulance if there is an emergency and if a person must be brought to hospital. Such emergencies can occur at Christmas as well as during other periods. Let us assume that somebody who is obliging and who has no advance knowledge that this journey must be undertaken is called urgently after drinking one or two pints in the pub and is marginally over the limit when stopped at a checkpoint. Unless the garda at the checkpoint is prepared to apply discretion, it cannot be applied from that point on. Once the breathalyser test is given everything else falls into place. Even if that errand of mercy has been responsible for saving a life or two lives, no mitigating circumstances can be accepted by a court. That is an aspect of the issue that should be examined.

I offered other examples, including one involving a doctor. I might have misunderstood Senator Henry when she commented on the doctor who went out with "a few jars" on him to respond to a road accident because the nearest other doctor was ten miles away and was already tied up with another emergency. She said that the doctor could have been in difficulty with the Medical Council. If I understood her correctly, that was another example of the misunderstanding people can have of life in rural Ireland. That doctor was having a house party. Perhaps he had had a few drinks. He responded to a call and perhaps he saved lives by doing so. If he was not prepared to do that and if the next available doctor was 20 miles away and if a life had been lost, the community would have run him out of the parish and out of the area. Perhaps I misunderstood the Senator's point. However, if I did not, that is the type of misunderstanding that can be so hurtful.

My final point is relevant to the section. One of the factors that contributed to the mayhem was the morning-after checkpoint. The authorities say that this has been exaggerated and that it did not happen. It happened outside a factory in Shannon in my constituency. It also happened outside a factory in the industrial estate in Raheen in Limerick. I am reliably informed that it happened outside the sugar factory in Carlow. It has been said that only a small number of samples was sent for analysis. However, the presence of the checkpoint caused consternation and upheaval in the rural community. It was so serious that I was one of a number of publicans who put a minibus on the road. I believed it was the proper thing to do in the circumstances. However, people who were going to work the following morning would not come in to the pub on the minibus. In fact, I ended up carrying pioneers, although that was fair enough. Terror was created about the morning-after checkpoint among people who were going to work the following morning.

I wish to conclude, although I am probably exploiting my time limits on this matter.

I am sure the Senator would never do that.

Thank you. I will make my final point. Senator Mooney spoke this morning about the effects of the previous Bill. He said that if it had been allowed to continue in force it would have created a cultural sea change in rural society in Ireland in the sense that people would no longer drink in the pubs but at home. Given the experience of the morning after drink party, they would not drink at home either.

I spoke about mental stability yesterday and I do not wish to develop the point any further, but the Minister and yourself, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, being understanding people, know what I am referring to. I make a last appeal to the Minister to consider an amendment between now and Report Stage to provide some measure of discretion with regard to the lower level of infringement, especially in respect of errands of mercy and so on.

As a former Minister for Health, perhaps the Minister has some form of morning after treatment for people who have been drinking, although I am not sure if any pill has been designed to deal with this situation. Coming from west County Clare, I appreciate the points made by Senator Howard. Does the Minister have any statistics or information which indicates that there is a more serious problem in the built up urban areas and busy highways and motorways than in the isolated rural areas with regard to drink driving offences and breaches of the law? In my experience over the years there is no area which is exempt from the difficulties experienced with people drinking and driving. I am not sure that the difficulties can be confined to certain areas and from that declare that special measures should be taken in these areas while allowing exemptions in other areas. While I appreciate what Senator Howard is seeking to achieve, I am not sure therefore how the Minister can address the matter.

To what extent will the provisions of section 2 allow for mitigations? Has the Minister any indication that these will have a major impact? Do the main cases brought by the authorities refer to new cases rather than to cases where people have had previous convictions?

Senator Howard is consistent and clear in the line he has taken on the Bill and from the time the Road Traffic Act, 1994 was first proposed by my predecessor, and I have given careful consideration to the points he has made to me. We have approached this Bill in an open way and have asked all sections of the community for their views. As I indicated on Second Stage, I have met with a cross section of the general public and with representative organisations on the measures that were part of the 1994 Act.

What I have proposed in the Bill is as far as it is reasonable to go. It strikes the necessary balance by giving a clear message from the Oireachtas that drinking and driving is not acceptable while at the same time addressing an issue which was perceived by the public to be unfair, that the penalty was the same regardless of the degree of guilt or of offence. The proposals I have put to the House in the Bill go as far as is reasonable.

With regard to the request to allow further discretion to the courts at the lower level to decide cases, we must be careful of the signal we give from this House. A disqualification has always been part of the enforcement of drunken driving since the original drunk driving legislation was enacted in the early 1960s. If we now have a category of drinking and driving that does not have a disqualification we are sending a strong negative message to the public that somehow this category is not a serious offence. However, the statistics available to us show that, even at the level of 80 milligrammes, there is a very significant increase in the potential for an accident, and we must all work to minimise the risk of accidents. Unfortunately, therefore, I am not in a position to accept Senator Howard's proposal that I should go further than I have suggested and give discretion with regard to the mandatory disqualification at the lower band. The courts have discretion with regard to all of the other penalties — for example, in respect of the amount of the fine — and flexibility is also provided should they wish to impose a stiffer period of suspension. We must get the balance right, and it is right in the proposals which I have put before the House.

Senator Howard raised a number of issues, which my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, addressed this morning. I spoke of the principle of mandatory penalties. It is a statement by the Oireachtas that we regard this as a serious offence. I want to have a serious, but graded penalty so that somebody who is slightly over the limit faces a less severe penalty than somebody who is blind drunk. It is a reasonable provision.

On the issue of insurance, insurance companies are commercial organisations and they will operate on the basis of related risk. While the cost of insurance is a cause of concern, especially motor insurance, insurance companies will have regard to the added risk of somebody who has a conviction. When statistics show that drink is related to at least some road traffic accidents, somebody who has been found guilty of an offence will have added risk and will then face an added loading. I am not sure that there is much we can do about this, but I am anxious, in conjunction with my Government colleagues, to ensure that insurance premia generally are pushed down. I have had discussions with representatives of the insurance industry on this matter and we have had a positive response from one company so far. Hopefully, it will be followed by other companies when they see the improvements in risk as people are more careful in the way they drive on our roads. I accept the case put by many Senators that it is not exclusively a matter of drinking and driving but that it is also a matter of proper care and attention, speed and the quality of our road systems. All of these factors must be addressed in a comprehensive way and I assure the House that the issue will get my clear attention.

The one issue which Senator Howard felt was not responded to on Second Stage was the mercy mission. It is a human dilemma and one which anybody would empathise with in the particular, when a specific errand of mercy is carried out by a doctor or veterinarian on behalf of a neighbour in need. We cannot make law for specific categories like that and we cannot give a blanket exemption to any category of people in society. People must be equal before the law, however, with regard to enforcement. There are flexibilities in the way gardaí handle matters. Nevertheless, in fairness, everybody — the Garda, ourselves — will have to say that if one is not fit to drive and if one is called out, one should not drive in those circumstances. Perhaps the options are not good in the circumstances of the case put forward by Senator Howard — for example, if there is no other doctor for a considerable distance — but a doctor would not be too happy to either drive a car while under the influence of alcohol, much less treat a patient. While there is a human dimension to the case put, again it is not possible for me to respond to it in any more forthright a way than I have done in the proposition before the House.

Senator Howard also referred to the details with regard to checkpoints and samples in the early morning. After Christmas, when I was not very long in the Department of the Environment, it became clear to me that perhaps because not much happens at Christmas, this legislation had become the talking point of the nation. Like most talking points during a holiday period, the stories grew like Topsy. Most of them were related directly to me. It became clear that there was not a milkman safe in the country because on a daily basis I heard of scores of them being stopped. There was not an early morning worker or postman in the country who had not been checked. Many of those stories were not true.

I asked the Garda authorities to give me the details and they told me that no additional checks other than the normal checks were added for the Christmas period. There will be normal road checks and that is right and proper, but the only absolutely reliable data we have is the number of samples sent for analysis. I can reaffirm for the House that during the period 2 December to 31 December 1994, a total of 308 blood or urine specimens were taken from arrested drivers. Some 70 per cent were taken between midnight and 6 a.m. The total number of samples taken between 6 a.m. and 10 a.m. was ten. In three cases of those the blood/alcohol level was below the limit and in the other seven cases the blood/alcohol level ranged from 156 mg to 229 mg. Most of those early morning cases were very much in excess of the permissible limit, in fact very much in excess of the level at which the maximum penalty in this amended Bill applies.

I do not think that there was a campaign in the morning, but if there was an accident or a case where somebody was driving erratically, naturally the Garda authorities have a duty to see whether the person is fit to drive or, if they are under the influence of alcohol, to take a sample and prosecute them in the normal way. We are not creating a law that requires people to be sober at night only and which allows them to be under the influence of alcohol in the early morning. The whole thrust of the Bill and the intention of my predecessor is to make the roads as safe as we can. The balance in the amendments I am proposing to the Bill today improves the fairness and public acceptability of the law and I hope it will add to rather than detract from the concerted effort of successive Ministers for the Environment to make the roads safer.

In reply to Senator Daly's specific question, I am not familiar with any differences in the severity of the problem of drinking and driving between urban and rural areas. It occurs across the country, in all strata of society, in urban and rural areas alike. It is noticeable that younger people do not drink and drive. They seem to have got the message and they make their own arrangements. Generally older people who have probably grown up in a different regime, in a different time, find it harder to adjust to the current prevailing view that if you drink, you do not drive. However, that cultural change is happening. As I say, the balances introduced in this Bill are about right. They have been broadly welcomed by most people. Not everybody is happy with the balance, but broadly speaking most people accept that it is firm but fair.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section that allows somebody who has been convicted under the 1994 Act to appeal to the courts in order to avail of the improved regime proposed in this Bill. I welcome this provision, it is a sensible addition to the Bill. While I regret — I am not attempting to go back to section 2 — that the Minister could not accept my amendments, I accept that he could not do so. All any of us can do is argue as sincerely as we can in relation to our opinions on these situations. The Minister has his point of view and I have mine. The Minister is the man in charge. Section 3 is a welcome addition to the Bill. I outlined a situation yesterday where I know one individual who will be very glad to avail of this. I do not know what will happen to his insurance cover. I am supporting section 3.

Does the Minister have any indication from the number of cases how many people are likely to benefit from the change?

As Senators have said, this section applies to disqualifications for offences committed between the date of enactment of the previous legislation, that is, 2 December 1994, and the date of coming into force of this measure. We talked at length in Government about this and I took clear advice from the Attorney General. Although people who have committed an offence under the old Act are subject to the penalties of the Act, on balance we felt that it would be unfair to have a window of time between December and the enactment of this legislation where offences were dealt with more severely than either before or after.

We looked for a mechanism to deal with this problem. We could not deal with it retrospectively directly. I am grateful for the advice of the Attorney General in this matter. We have allowed a mechanism for somebody who was dealt with under the old Act to go back to the court and be dealt with under the new provisions incorporated in the Bill before us. That is a reasonable way of dealing with it. I am looking to see if I have the numbers of people who may be included in this. From December 1994 to March 1995 there are 65 people in the 81 mg to 100 mg category. There are 365 people in the 101 mg to 150 mg category. They are the two groups who would be affected by the changes. These are analyses. We do not know whether these have actually gone to the courts yet, but they would be subject to the current law. It is a significant group of people who in fairness should have the benefit of the new regime as every other citizen will.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 4 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Acting Chairman

I thank the Minister.

The Seanad has now passed this Bill and it goes on to the other House, which in its wisdom may accept or reject it as the case may be. The Minister may be confronted with further and additional arguments to the ones he was confronted with here, but nonetheless I thank the Minister. I welcomed the Bill in general yesterday. I felt that one or two improvements could be made. The Minister did not agree with me and that is fair enough. I do not think too many other people in this House agree with me. However, everybody on all sides of the House agrees that this was a welcome response to a situation that caused a lot of turmoil. It was a genuine attempt to rectify that situation. It was a reasonably rapid response. It often takes a long time to prepare legislation. There was a row this morning about other legislation which was promised, but has not yet appeared. However, the Minister acted with haste and met 95 per cent of the problems created by the original Bill, for which I thank him. I also thank Senator Daly, a fellow county man and my good friend, and Senator Bohan. It has been a good debate and I thank the Minister for his response to the concerns.

On behalf of my party, I thank the Minister for the changes he has made. We would have liked further changes to benefit the people we represent, some of whom are not very happy. However, as Senator Howard said, the Minister has gone a long way towards meeting the needs of those in the licensed trade. Perhaps there would not have been a need to introduce this Bill if others had listened to our representations. We were not being unreasonable when we asked for this type of legislation. The people we represent were very anxious to ensure that the three month ban would be lifted. Perhaps this matter could be examined again in the future. I thank the Minister for the Bill.

I thank all the Senators who contributed to the debate. The discussion was wide ranging and covered aspects of road traffic law other than drink driving. It was most helpful to me as the Minister responsible for road traffic and safety in general. I do not have time now to respond to all the different points made, but I will take careful note of them.

I also thank the Seanad for the opportunity to expeditiously introduce this Bill. The quicker this legislation is enacted, the shorter the interregnum period will be, as it is important not to build up a backlog of cases which need to go back to the courts. I hope for equal speed and assistance in the other House. I thank all Senators for their contributions, their considered views and the expert way in which they approached the Bill.

Acting Chairman

I also thank the Minister and wish him well with the Bill in the Lower House. He has adequately addressed the defects in the original piece of legislation. Without wishing to abuse the prerogative of the Chair, I ask the Minister to examine consolidating the various pieces of legislation, which go back to 1961.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 2.30 p.m. next Wednesday.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 May 1995.

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