Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jul 1996

Vol. 148 No. 7

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Before I announce the Order of Business, I would like to make a couple of comments. Members will note that the European Union flag is flying. It marks the inauguration of Ireland's Presidency of the European Union and will fly for the duration. It is hoped that the House will rise on 11 July, but it will sit later in the month. The envisaged date for that sitting is 26 July although it might be the following week. The following week is a significant week so I will try to ensure that the House will reconvene on 26 July.

Today's business is item 1, Second Stage, to conclude. I suggest 20 minutes per spokesperson and 15 minutes for each speaker thereafter.

Mr. Wright

This is the start of Ireland's Presidency of the European Union and every Member will wish Ireland every success during its term of office. My party will be happy to comply with whatever arrangements the Leader intends to make to deal with Dáil legislation on crime.

Mr. O'Toole

In noting the beginning of the Irish Presidency of the EU and wishing it well, I wish to make an appeal on behalf of those living on the north side of the city. We will spend the rest of the afternoon discussing transportation in the city and much of that will refer to the neglect of the northside. However, once every six or seven years we are not neglected because whenever a clerk is due to arrive from Brussels a decision is taken to block the traffic on Drumcondra Road and out to the airport. What are the criteria for deciding to block traffic when people visit from Brussels? We look like a third world country. I spend a great deal of time in Brussels and other European capitals and traffic is rarely blocked except for visiting dignitaries of a particular status.

I am unhappy that somebody can simply ring the Garda, who should be busy enough with other business, and, without adhering to a set of criteria that is understandable to me, decide to put a garda on every junction between the airport and the city to impress on visiting clerks with cheques that we can stop traffic and run their car straight through the city. It is unfair and unacceptable. I would like to hear from the appropriate Minister the criteria under which this action is taken.

I recognise the urgency with which the Government must deal with crime legislation. The proposed sitting will be inconvenient for many Members who have made holiday arrangements but it behoves all Members to co-operate as much as possible to ensure the speedy passing of legislation. I hope we will be able to offer such co-operation on 26 July.

Mr. Dardis

With regard to the Leader's announcement of the late sitting in July, my party is prepared to sit at any time to have this matter debated and disposed of in full. I ask the Leader to make 20 minutes available to each speaker on the Bill currently before the House. However, I am agreeable to 15 minutes if that is the wish of the House.

Last week, before the tragic events, I raised the law of defamation in the House. The urgency of this issue has been highlighted by intervening events and the fact that RTE had to issue an apology last evening arising out of the content of an earlier radio programme related to those events.

The second issue I wish to raise is Bord na Móna and the fact that the problems being experienced by the board and its members have still not been resolved. This is very damaging to the workers of Bord na Móna and the company itself. Can we have a speedy resolution of this urgent matter?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I thank the Leader of the House for publishing the safety at sea report. It is welcome and I look forward to discussing it in the Seanad; I have not yet had a chance to read it.

I want to refer to item 19, Motion No. 33 on the Order Paper. I was informed today by the Clerk of the Seanad that the 21 sitting days had elapsed on 28 June and we could not move this motion now. I put down this motion on behalf of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association of Ireland — AOPA. No consultation took place with the pilots on this large document. There is no way AOPA would know about such documents except by contributing to and reading Iris Oifigiúil or by getting the order of both Houses of the Oireachtas. This should be overcome by telling the organisations involved in advance that these documents will be laid before the Seanad.

I had a telephone call about this case this morning and it was only through the diligence of AOPA that it found out this motion was laid before the Seanad. There should be an opportunity for those groups to know about these documents in advance. Would it be possible, even at this late stage, for the Minister to consult with AOPA about this draft document? It lays down stringent rules and regulations that will be introduced in 1998. The Minister might consider meeting the group.

Mr. Norris

Would the Leader of the House convey to the Government the wish of many Members that there should be permanent funding made available to the independent living fund? I raise this because we had a very good debate about the Centre for Independent Living last year as a result of which it got additional funding — it was a Horizon fund in association with the European Union. It has been extraordinarily successful but that funding is now diminishing. If the Leader thinks it appropriate, we might have a debate on the subject but, in the meantime, perhaps he would convey this view to the Government. I am sure the House would be very supportive of it. These people have been outside the gate for some hours. Some of them have even travelled in their wheelchairs from places as far away as County Clare — they asked me to mention that county on the Order of Business.

I am concerned because a proposal has been passed to me — and perhaps a number of other people as well — about having a day of peace and reconciliation. This idea came from Vincent Coyle from Derry, who has been in consultation with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. It has been very difficult to get funding for it. Mr. Coyle has put a lot of his own money into it. He approached Co-operation North, with the support of Government and elements within the European Union, and was brusquely turned down without the possibility of making the case. However, I heard a representative from Co-operation North on the radio during the week saying they have £15 million of EU money and they cannot give it away; so far only £2-£3 million has been taken up. Could the Leader find some method where we can look into this matter? Perhaps we could have a short debate or ask the appropriate Minister to look into this — something the Government, sees as being worthwhile is being turned down by an operation with plenty of money.

Mr. McGowan

I requested a debate on two matters during the year on which I hoped the Leader would have responded. The first was a debate on the National Roads Authority. Rural Ireland, particularly the west, the Border counties and Donegal, have fared badly in this regard. I wanted an opportunity to express our dissatisfaction with the allocation and the provision for the west by the National Roads Authority. I would like to be told why there is a difficulty about arranging a debate on this Authority. The second matter on which the Leader indicated he would arrange an early debate was the tourism industry and funding for it.

Would the Leader arrange a debate early in the new session on house improvement and new house grants? It is no longer attractive for people building a house, which is a sector of the community we should be supporting, to fill in an application form to apply for a new house grant; house improvement grants are non-existent. We are on the slippery slope——

An Cathaoirleach

There are other ways of raising that particular issue. I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader. We are not discussing those grants now.

Mr. McGowan

In my opinion, I do not abuse the Order of Business. I sit down patiently and listen to people discussing everything about the other end of the world——

An Cathaoirleach

A question on the Order of Business.

Mr. McGowan

Would the Leader arrange a debate on the provision of funding for house improvement grants and new house grants? The funding for house improvement has collapsed. An application for a disabled person's grant or essential repair grant may be approved but——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing new house or house improvement grants today. Will the Senator put a question to the Leader?

Mr. McGowan

I am trying to justify my question and I have to work hard to do it.

Mr. Manning

The Senator might turn up for one of his debates some day.

Mr. McGowan

I implore the Leader to bring the Minister for the Environment to the House to give us an opportunity to express our disappointment that this funding is not in place.

Mr. Farrell

Could the Leader arrange a debate later in the year on local government reform with particular emphasis on the differential rent system? This is something we hear much about. At present, local health boards are paying up to £38 million for rented accommodation and the council has to try to subsidise people under the differential rent system, which they cannot do. There are better ways to spend this money and local authorities could provide proper housing. When assessing people for housing the Department of Social Welfare should take into account the rent paid so that the council can receive an economic rent, in common with every other local authority in Europe. I would welcome a debate on local authority reform, especially on housing.

Mr. Finneran

I join in the call for funding for independent living. It is a worthwhile scheme — An Cathaoirleach knows of its successful operation in Roscommon; it is run by FÁS under the community employment scheme. I support the call for permanent funding for the provision of care and assistance and I hope the Minister will be able to respond.

This House led the debate on suicide some years ago and it is disturbing that up to 400 people die by suicide each year; this figure is similar to the number killed in car crashes. I ask the Leader to provide time for another debate on this topic. There must be reasons for suicide, particularly among young men.

Could we have a short debate on the Ombudsman's report? The second arm of Government — that is, local authorities — has been castigated for its reluctance to give information and such a lack of transparency is a bad sign. A debate in this House might open up that matter; after all, it is local authority members who elect us.

What is the position of the Castlerea prison? Today's Government press statement mentioned a £40 million project in Wheatfield but nothing for Castlerea. The present proposal is for a 25 unit open prison in Castlerea but the people of Roscommon are not happy about that because such a prison is based on a voluntary arrangement — inmates would sign a form stating that they will not escape — and that is not what they were promised. I ask the Leader to indicate what the status of the prison will be. Will the original proposal of a 150 unit prison——

An Cathaoirleach

There are ways the Senator could raise that issue other than on the Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

In the current debate on crime and prison accommodation, it is only fair that the people of Roscommon would know the up to date position of the Castlereagh prison. Will it be a secure 150 cell unit or an open prison for 25 inmates as indicated by the Minister?

Mr. Neville

I support the call for further funding for independent living. We had an excellent debate on this subject last year. I spoke to members of the group today; they did great work with the funding they received last year and we all support its continuation.

I echo Senator Finneran's concern about the level of suicide. Within the next month we will receive the first interim report of the task force on suicide established by the Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Roche

I join with speakers who called for a debate on continuing funding for independent living. As Senator Neville said, a great deal of good work was done with the funding provided over the last two years and it is sad that the physically disabled and challenged should again find themselves outside the gates of this House, looking for funding. I am aware that feeling is shared by Members on all sides and is not unique to the Opposition. The Minister should make a statement and provide appropriate funding on a continuing basis.

The personal assistance in a number of third level institutions is threatened with removal and Members associated with such institutions know that would be a disaster. I hope the Minister can do something to redress that.

I also call for a debate on Bord na Móna. Everyone agrees with the Minister that it is a debacle. We have an extraordinary situation where, after six meetings, the members of the board cannot make up their minds on the accusations apparently levelled against an individual member, a person who did good work on the board. I would not have always agreed with the chief executive and I have been critical of Bord na Móna from time to time.

Mr. Enright

Who levelled what charges?

Mr. Roche

It is time this debacle was brought to an end and we should have an early debate on the matter.

Item 6 on the Order Paper is the Freedom of Information Bill, 1995. It has languished on the Order Paper due to a procedural hiatus in which the House finds itself. There is a commitment from all the major political parties to introduce freedom of information legislation during the life of the present Dáil. However, we are stymied by bureaucratic considerations. If we are interested in opening up the public service we should have freedom of information legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Mr. Roche

Will the Leader arrange for this matter be brought to finality? Perhaps it might be referred to a committee of both Houses so it can be progressed.

Last week I referred to the extraordinary proposition to effectively abolish half of the vocational education committees. May we have a debate on that matter at an early date?

Mr. Townsend

I support the call for funding for personal assistants for people with disabilities. According to the organisations protesting outside, £5 million would be a small price to pay to help the people involved. A nation is judged by the way it treats minorities.

Mr. Mooney

Last week I raised the issue of a regional industrial strategy. The Leader of the House misinterpreted my remarks in suggesting that I did not welcome 700 new jobs, but he missed the point. He should allow Government time to debate the IDA annual report. It is not included in the list of papers on the Order Paper laid before the Seanad, although it was published at the same time as the Córas Iompair Éireann, Dublin Bus, Irish Bus and Irish Rail reports which are on the list. I presume this is an omission that will be rectified. Will the Leader provide an opportunity to debate the IDA annual report? It is a matter which merits debate as the Leader will be aware from the response on both sides of the House to my remarks last week. Lest there be any misinterpretation, I greatly welcome the extra jobs. However, that was not my point and I would welcome the opportunity to make my point in the context of a debate on regional industrial strategy.

Mr. Daly

It is tragic that people with disabilities are protesting outside today. They are forced to do so to highlight their grievances and the lack of Government action to deal with their problems. Many of them have indicated that their personal assistants have been unable to continue to help them because of a lack of funding. They also seek to have a permanent fund established, as has been done successfully in other countries. I support the call to the Leader to find out from the Ministers responsible if they are prepared to establish this fund and to continue the temporary funding to provide personal assistants for people with disabilities.

I recently attended a seminar organised by the Clare Association at which the Minister for Social Welfare was present. There was great concern at the lack of a response to this matter from the Minister on that occasion and the apparent disregard displayed by the Government.

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot discuss the matter now.

Mr. Daly

The matter should be addressed. It has not been dealt with and that has resulted in the disabled people having to protest again.

Mr. Enright

I join with other speakers in asking the Minister for Health to continue to provide personal assistants for people with disability. I have seen the work the group in Offaly are carrying out and the benefit personal assistants have been to people with disability. I am sure the Minister will look after them because he understands the problem. These people are fortunate to have a Minister of his calibre.

Perhaps I misunderstood Senator Roche when he referred to the Price Waterhouse report on Bord na Móna, but I thought he said there were charges levelled by members of the board against the managing director. As far as I am aware there were no charges laid by any member of the board against the managing director.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the Bord na Móna issue now. As I understand it, Senator Roche asked a question of the Leader of the House.

Mr. Roche

I did not say that, but it was not the birds in the air who leaked the documents.

Mr. Enright

I know a number of members on the board at Bord na Móna and I would not like that comment to pass unnoticed. I support the Minister when he states that he is anxious that this matter would reach a speedy conclusion.

Price Waterhouse carried out another investigation into the operation of the 1995 leaving certificate examinations. There was justifiable public concern over the storage of the art examination material in Athlone as we learned from the Price Waterhouse report. This report is the first to describe in detail the organisational structure of the leaving certificate.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Enright

There are many people who would like Members to analyse this matter in depth so they would know what we think of this report. I appreciate there are constraints because the House will be adjourning shortly, but will the Leader give us an assurance that at an early opportunity there will be a short debate on this issue? I would not like this report to be overlooked.

Mr. Manning

First, there will be 20 minutes per speaker on item 1 and I thank the Leader of the Opposition and colleagues for their co-operation.

I agree with Senator O'Toole, which is unusual, that people will be turned off the European Presidency by the overuse of pomp, the blocking of streets and the klaxons of some of the motorcades driving civil servants to and from the airport, a lot of which is unnecessary. I was in a public place last evening as one of these cavalcades passed and I did a spotcheck. The reaction of most people was that it was unnecessary and was regarded as a turn-off from the European Union. Like Senator O'Toole, I appeal to those responsible for security and so forth to show restraint and common sense because this may be seen as the unacceptable face of the European Union. As a country we are not given to that sort of pomp. I will pass on the Senator's comments; he has my full agreement.

Senator Dardis raised the question of defamation. There is large section on defamation in the report on the newspaper industry. That report was leaked by the newspapers last week and published prematurely. It is going to Government next week and I have asked for a debate on the report before the end of session. I hope we can do that and that the section on defamation will be the basis for legislation.

Like Senator Dardis and others, I agree it is time that the Bord na Móna issue was sorted out. Up to now there has been no political responsibility. It would have been wrong had the Minister intervened. Heaven help him whatever he has to do given the report is coming out today, because the board seems to have ducked the issue. One way or the other, I will not commend the board of Bord na Móna but the Minister must now resolve this problem, and I am sure he will. Senator Roche also raised the issue of Bord na Móna.

With regard to Senator Fitzgerald's point, I have asked for a short debate on fisheries and safety at sea between now and the end of session. The Minister has agreed in principle and if he can, he will.

The question with regard to AOPA arose from a statutory instrument, and statutory instruments are a particularly sneaky way of doing business. They have been there a long time and it takes great vigilance on the part of organisations to see when their interests will be affected. I can understand how the pilots feel aggrieved that there was not full consultation. I will certainly pass on the request that there be full consultations and that their interests be taken to heart.

Senator Norris introduced a new sartorial norm into the House today. He is not here at present, but I will pass on his points and those of many other Senators about the Centre for Independent Living. Few organisations enjoy such goodwill on all sides in this House and the strong recommendations will be passed on.

Senator McGowan wants three debates between now and the end of session. The first of these is on tourism which started last week and it is on the Order Paper. I will try to accommodate the Senator with regard to the other two matters in the next session but I cannot do so between now and the end of session.

Senator Farrell has a good point. There is a need for a major debate on all aspects of local government and I intend that matter will be a priority at the beginning of the next session. Senator Finneran raised the issue of independent living and I agree with him.

I, too, would welcome a debate on suicide. Senator Neville began a serious debate at a political level on that hugely important issue. It is important that it be discussed; perhaps we could do so on an all party basis in the next session.

I hope to have a short debate on the Ombudsman next week. With regard to Castlerea prison, the Minister will be in the House tomorrow so perhaps the Senator can ask her about it.

I said last week that we would have a debate on the vocational education committees. I suspect it will be next session but it is important that we have a debate. My expectation is that the Freedom of Information Bill will be seriously tackled during the summer months and we should have the Bill early in the next session. I will get back to the Senator on that matter.

I may have misinterpreted Senator Mooney last week. I would have no difficulty and would welcome a debate in the next session on the IDA report. Perhaps we could tie it in with item 10 on today's Order Paper. The most expeditious way Senator Enright could raise the question of the examination report in the short term is on the Adjournment; to the best of my knowledge, it has not been raised on the Adjournment. That would at least give the Senator immediate access for his in depth discussion.

Order of Business agreed to.