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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Nov 1997

Vol. 152 No. 16

150th Commemoration of the Famine: Statements.

It is a pleasure to have this opportunity to address the Seanad, something I did not have the opportunity of doing as Minister for Defence. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on a subject which is dear to my heart and that of many Senators. It is a subject many of us have studied, especially over the past couple of years in light of the 150th commemoration of that terrible period in our history from 1846-50. The literature is wide and varied.

Over the past two years we have been assessing the impact the Great Famine has had on the contemporary and longer term structures of Irish society. As the House will know, the opportunity to do so has been spearheaded by the Famine Commemorative Committee, which was established in May 1994 by the then Minister, Deputy Tom Kitt, and developed by a Member of this House, Senator Doyle, in her capacity as a member of the last Government, and continued by the present Government by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Brennan. I pay tribute to these colleagues and to the work of the committee. As a result of this work, we have as a nation a new awareness of a great tragedy.

The facts and figures of the period suggest that during the late 1840s there were unprecedented levels of sickness, emigration, death and misery, what Mrs. Cecil Woodham-Smith called "the Great Hunger" when she published her study under that title in 1962. The Great Hunger and other literature provide a definitive collection of works on the famine. The Great Hunger is worth reading for those who want an unvarnished overview of the famine. Over the years the Great Famine also developed a unique folklore that passed from generation to generation and became embedded in our minds as a defining moment in our history. As it did so, the topic remained highly emotive, affecting our view of ourselves, our neighbours and our role in the world.

I pay tribute to the series of ongoing articles by Brendan Ó Cathaoir, "Famine Diary", which are published every Saturday in The Irish Times They are certainly very helpful to those of us interested in this subject and keep us mindful of that terrible time in our history. Other offerings on the famine include a compilation of a very interesting series of essays by Professor Dudley Edwards and Professor T. Desmond Williams. The Quakers, the Society of Friends, played an immense role in the famine outlined in a book entitled Transactions of the Society of Friends During the Famine in Ireland. This is in the nature of a reference book, which outlines the contribution the Quakers made to the relief of the terrible distress which afflicted the country at the time, but it is interesting to dip into and gives one a sense of the period.

Over the past 20 years or so, historians have been questioning the received wisdom on the Great Famine. Although this has created different schools of thought, the debate has encouraged a more multifaceted and "total history". It is no accident that this "revisionism" and "neo-revisionism" have been evolving as Ireland enters a new chapter in its history and development, as it is becoming more urbanised and industrialised and as it develops new relationships with Britain and the wider European Union.

However, there is no contradiction between learning from our own experience during the Great Famine and the development of these new relationships. Indeed, because of our own painful and relatively recent experience of famine, we are in a better position than most to develop an honourable and honest role to both comment on, and lead the campaign against, starvation and want in our late 20th century world, especially as this is manifest in North Korea.

This must surely be the most important legacy of our most recent review of our own Great Famine, all the more so in that most modern famines are not the result of socio-economic collapse. Instead, they are, more often than not, associated with civil wars, cold wars, a lack of democracy or, in some cases, with what are perhaps the unintended by-products of ideology, whether it be collectivisation, forced migration or some other form of social engineering. It is difficult, for example, to instance any recent African famine which has not been associated with, or greatly exacerbated by, warfare. Our own experience in Somalia is evidence of that. Tragically, while many thousands of lives were saved between 1992 and 1993, the position has again deteriorated with the flooding of the River Juniper. I hope the international community will re-examine these events.

However, not only does this make modern famines no less worthy of intervention, but, given our own history, it makes such intervention an even greater imperative. During our own Great Famine, the head of the Treasury, Sir Charles Trevelyn, opposed British assistance on the grounds that the Irish were "unworthy" of relief on the grounds that it was the nature of Irish society itself which had brought the famine about. Specifically, what Trevelyn had in mind were those small holdings which proliferated the countryside. Indeed, one result of the famine was to clear away such holdings and bring about a more commercialised farming during the second half of the 19th century.

In our own history Trevelyn's comments have been controversial, at times misused and taken out of context. However, the basic point remains as true for mid 19th century Ireland as it does for North Korea today; there is no such thing as a "no-fault" famine. As a nation, we are in a position to know and state as much.

One of the more striking aspects of our own famine was that so many people should perish in an era associated with better communication, improved medicine and unprecedented wealth. It shocked many people at the time and has shocked many people since. Yet, we also need to remind ourselves that even the richest countries then were very poor by the standards of places such as the United States, Germany and even Ireland today. Therefore, whatever about the middle of the 19th century, a lack of resources is no reason why anyone should perish from famine in the late 20th century.

One of the greatest qualities of the Irish people is their generosity of thought and action. In keeping with this viewpoint, I regard humanitarian concerns as being central to Irish life, politics and foreign policy. It is perhaps one of the few positive legacies we gained from our terrible experiences during the Great Famine last century. As a people, we have always felt a strong solidarity with the peoples of other countries who are suffering similar catastrophes or disaster, whether natural or man-made. This Irish sense of solidarity is summed up succinctly and eloquently in the proverb "Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine" which means that people live in each other's shadow. From our own experience we should realise that facing up to poverty and hunger in the world today is not just a question of charity but of justice as well. Next week I shall have the honour of visiting the Canadian disembarkation point in the last century for Irish emigrants fleeing the Great Famine. I know that when I reach the evocative island of Grosse Ile in the St. Lawrence River, I shall be thinking of the tragedies which are affecting people in the modern world, not least those who may be suffering from hunger and starvation. I will also be thinking of the one million people who died during the Famine and of the one million people who emigrated. We sometimes forget that the generation of people who emigrated lived in the most appalling and horrendous conditions in the countries in which they were generously received. It took a number of generations to bring them up to a relatively comfortable standard of living.

The holding of this debate today expresses the very deep concern felt by myself and the Government as a whole regarding the humanitarian situation in North Korea. There are in fact many comparisons which may be made between Ireland and Korea. The Korean peninsula, like the island of Ireland, has been fought in and fought over through the centuries. Like us, the Koreans have known many invaders and have struggled unrelentingly to maintain their national identity, culture and independence. Like us, their homeland has been partitioned in a manner which has done enormous damage to the development and progress of their nation.

For Korea as a whole, the 20th century has for the most part been a troubled and difficult one. For nearly all of the first half of the century, Imperial Japanese forces controlled the peninsula and created conditions whereby Koreans became second class citizens in their own country. At the end of the Second World War, Korea was finally liberated only to become a pawn in the ensuing superpower conflict as the Cold War quickly developed and expanded to touch almost all corners of the world.

The Korean War broke out on 25 June 1950 when Communist forces from the north crossed the 38th parallel into the south and overran the capital, Seoul. For three long years, the fortunes of war favoured first one side and then the other. China and the Soviet Union provided troops and equipment for the north while a United Nations force, led by the United States, helped to defend the south. In the end, an armistice was signed with the antagonists separated more or less along the 38th parallel, which was where they had started out from in the first place. The war devastated the Korean peninsula causing enormous damage to industry and agriculture. More than a million soldiers and civilians were killed, not to mention the many thousands of foreign troops who perished.

The Korean War was a true catastrophe for all the people of Korea destroying factories and farms alike. It separated families from each other and created an enmity between the two halves of Korea which has remained to the present day and which has ensured that the armistice line running across the Korean peninsula is one of the few remaining hot spots of international tension in the modern world. It is consequently greatly to the credit of the Republic of Korea, which comprises the southern half of the peninsula, that its economy is today the eleventh largest in the world. It has created huge industries whose products are sold and highly appreciated throughout the world. It has exported its technology and its capital so that even countries as far away as Ireland have benefited from its industrial and financial investment. Our direct trading relationship with South Korea is particularly robust with more than £200 million being exported in each direction in 1996 alone. Our overall bilateral relationship is now so important that in the past few years full residential embassies have been established in each country's capital.

Sadly, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in the northern half of the peninsula has followed a very different socio-economic path. Hidebound by rigid Stalinist social policies and political repression, the breakdown of the Soviet bloc lost it what few friends it had left in the world; its economy has stagnated to such an extent that it is now clearly no longer even able to feed its own people. It has suffered natural disasters through flooding and drought in recent times. Two successive years of floods in 1995 and 1996 were followed this year by a devastating drought throughout the country and a destructive typhoon last August which damaged crops in the west of the country. It has to be admitted, however, that the intrinsic root of the problem has been North Korea's stubborn inability as a society to adapt itself to the economic and technological realities of the modern world.

A society or nation State anywhere in the world can only achieve its full potential and function for the betterment of the individual and society in general in an atmosphere of freedom: freedom of belief, freedom of speech and freedom of association. Economically, I believe there is no alternative to a system of free enterprise linked with co-operative endeavour. Nobody can claim that these freedoms exist in North Korea. Even with the end of the Cold War and the demise of the former Soviet Union, it would appear that North Korea remains impervious to change. With few friends anywhere in the world, it has attempted to maintain a policy of juche or self-reliance based on outdated Marxist ideology. Not only has this policy brought economic ruin to the country but it has failed the most basic self-sufficiency requirement of all, which is the ability to feed one's own people.

Whatever the cause or causes of the current crisis in North Korea, let us turn to the facts. Only 18 per cent of the country is suitable for agricultural use and food production has been in decline since 1990, mainly due to a high dependence on agro-chemical inputs, soil exhaustion, lack of agricultural investment and poor farming practices. The annual cereal requirement to meet the needs of the North Korean population is believed to be five million tonnes. It is estimated by the World Food Programme — WFP — and by the Food and Agriculture Organisation — FAO — that the 1997 harvest yield has amounted to only 2.6 million tonnes, creating a deficit which will have to be met by humanitarian aid and barter exchange arrangements. The WFP alone has shipped and distributed over 650,000 tonnes of cereals this year already. The various UN agencies have appealed for and received to date a total of US$178.5 million for distribution as food aid. This emergency aid has been focused on the following priority sectors: approximately 2.6 million children aged six and under have received food rations at nurseries and kindergartens throughout the country — almost three quarters of the food provisions under the emergency programme was directed at this group; 250,000 farmers, farm workers and 850,000 dependants in flood-affected areas have received assistance for work involving clearing of agricultural land, rehabilitation of rural infrastructure and participation in disaster mitigation schemes; and up to one million patients received food supplies during short term hospital stays.

In addition, UNICEF is undertaking a massive immunisation programme for all children. The European Commission has donated at total of 56.5 million ECUs in emergency humanitarian assistance, most of which has been disbursed through the WFP.

The immediate crisis has probably passed, and there now appear to be sufficient supplies to carry the population through the winter. There is general agreement, however, that the poor harvest gathered this year means that without further assistance, a new crisis may arise by next April.

I am proud that Ireland has been to the forefront of international donors in its response. The Government has so far given £815,000 in emergency humanitarian assistance to North Korea since June 1996; this represents a sizeable portion of Irish Aid's emergency budget in this period. Irish Aid's assistance has been channelled through the WFP, Trócaire and Concern.

Many Members will be aware that Irish NGOs have been very active in the humanitarian assistance effort for North Korea. In addition to the Government's contribution, Trócaire has raised almost £2.3 million from their public appeal. I pay particular tribute to Trócaire's director, Mr. Justin Kilcullen. He has given an immense lead in this regard, and he has done his organisation and his country proud. Concern has also donated US$150,000 to the WFP and is now running a winterisation programme involving the production of heavy clothing for distribution during the coming winter. No words can express the admiration I feel for these Irish agencies which, in North Korea and elsewhere, are maintaining the proud tradition of helping those who are most in need.

I also wish to express my appreciation to the group of parliamentarians who visited North Korea in September at the invitation of Mr. Kilcullen. The group comprised Deputy Eamon Gilmore, Bernie Malone, MEP, and Dr. Joe Hendron, the former MP for West Belfast. I wish to express again my appreciation to Dr. Hendron who gave me more literature on the North Korean situation when I visited Belfast. The report of their visit provided many useful insights into the internal situation in North Korea and was brought to the attention of our partners in the EU who expressed considerable interest in it.

The Government has taken a keen interest in this situation and has been anxious to be as well informed as possible and to take the most effective action in the circumstances. I am pleased to inform Members that a technical mission comprising a technical expert from the development co-operation division of my Department and an officer from the Irish Embassy in Beijing visited North Korea last week. Their brief was to assess the humanitarian situation there in order to determine the precise needs of the population and to ensure that the assistance provided by Ireland is being used to the best possible advantage and distributed to those most in need. During their stay, the members of the technical mission visited a number of centres under the supervision of the Korean authorities. They also had an opportunity for a range of consultations and meetings with several agencies and others who are closely involved in the effort. They formed the view that there continues to be a food deficit and that there is some evidence of malnutrition, but in so far as it can be determined from the available evidence, the situation cannot be described as a famine in the conventional understanding of the term. The technical mission was informed by the international agencies that reports that as many as 1 million people may have died earlier this year from starvation were exaggerated. It was clear, however, that a potential disaster could certainly have occurred earlier this year had timely international assistance not proved adequate to cope with the crisis. The leader of the technical mission is highly skilled and very knowledgeable in this area, and we were glad to have his expertise to lead this mission.

Most of the UN agencies consulted by the technical mission stated the basic problem in North Korea was not just one of food security. They stressed that a short-term response would be no substitute for the political and economic reforms which would be needed if North Korea were to achieve stability. Many believed furthermore that the economy was operating at as little as 20 per cent of capacity. They reported indications of extreme infrastructural neglect everywhere, with rail, port and secondary road systems in decay. The health sector appears to have fallen apart even before the latest set of natural disasters, and the main water/sanitation systems have collapsed. Electricity and motor fuel are in short supply and water chlorination plants have shut down due to lack of resources for repair and maintenance.

It seems that no matter how much aid is distributed now, and there is no denying that it will be urgently needed in coming months, the root problems of North Korea will not be solved unless the politico-economic structures on the Korean peninsula are changed. For this reason we have always held, and will continue to hold, that the two parts of Korea must be willing to co-operate together and to discuss their shared concerns. It has to be made clear in this regard that it has been the North Korean Government which time and again has refused to negotiate in good faith and on an equal basis with its counterpart in Seoul.

Quadripartite talks involving the two parts of Korea, China and the US, have finally been put in place to be held in Geneva, starting on 9 December. Last week's announcement came after months of negotiations between the parties involved. Earlier attempts at setting up talks had failed due to North Korea's insistence that the question of US troop reductions in South Korea be specifically included on the agenda. It has now been agreed that the aim of the Geneva conference will be to discuss the "establishment of a peace regime on the Korean peninsula and issues concerning tension reduction there". This is not dissimilar to our situation. It would appear that the US has assured the North Koreans that they can raise the issue of troop reductions at Geneva along with any other issue which they feel might help to achieve the two aims of the conference as announced. It seems most unlikely, however, that US troop reductions will take place in the absence of a comprehensive peace agreement on the peninsula.

Ireland does not have diplomatic relations with North Korea. The only North Korean representative in the EU is accredited to Denmark and lives in Copenhagen. Despite this, we are contributing significantly at present to the alleviation of malnutrition in North Korea and we shall continue to do so for as long as is necessary. It is clear, however, that the economic problems of North Korea are not solely, or even principally, due to natural disasters or events outside the control of the Pyongyang Government. There is no doubt that socio-economic reform is required in North Korea but there is little indication of a willingness on the part of the regime to follow that route.

Likewise, in relation to human rights and association with terrorism, very serious charges have been raised about the regime. There is a complete absence in North Korea of political freedom as we know it; it is widely believed furthermore that the number of political prisoners held under extremely harsh conditions by the regime is very high — perhaps as many as 200,000.

On the international front, North Korea's record is far from spotless. It seems to have given up even the pretence of adhering to international standards and is currently attempting to withdraw from the UN Covenant of Civil and Political Rights — an action which is not even provided for under the terms of the covenant. The export of missiles and other military equipment to areas of international high tension also presents the international community with serious worries. While these circumstances continue, Ireland will have to be cautious about drawing any nearer politically to the regime in Pyongyang.

The people of North Korea nevertheless cannot and must not be held responsible for the sins of their Government. What matters more than anything else in the present circumstances is that innocent men, women and children in North Korea, or anywhere else, should die from starvation simply because the outside world is unwilling to do what is necessary to save them. It behoves us all in today's independent world to ensure that the global economy provides adequate food security for the entire population. We in Ireland will continue to work with the rest of the international community to play our full part in preventing further crises. Ours is a proud record, both in peacekeeping so ably conducted by our Defence Forces and in the continuous response of the people to appeals for aid for less well-off parts of the world. This relates to the national psyche and the fact that our ancestors were the victims of a famine for which they had no responsibility. The memory of the suffering of our own people 150 years ago will allow us to do no less.

I thank the Minister for attending this important debate. I know the busy schedule of any Minister and sometimes the handling of topics can be seen as easily transferable to junior spokespersons or Ministers of State from other Departments, particularly in relation to the Seanad. Last night we criticised the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, for not attending the important debate on agriculture.

It was my privilege as a Minister of State in the last Government to take over the running of the Great Famine Commemoration Committee. For the past two and a half years I traversed virtually every county attending famine commemoration events. I travelled extensively on behalf of Ireland, to Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Liverpool and other parts of the world where Irish people have had an enormous impact, largely due to enforced emigration during and immediately after the tragic years of the 1840s. We are now drawing parallels between the tragedy of famine in Korea and the tragedy of our Famine 150 years ago, to see if lessons have been learnt. What is the relevance of the Great Irish Famine for modern times?

Between 1845 and 1850, the potato crop was destroyed by blight. Over a million people from a population of 8 million died from starvation and starvation related diseases. Many more died from disease than starvation; they were so debilitated they did not live long enough to die of starvation. A further million emigrated under appalling conditions, many dying before they reached their destinies or soon after landing. These are facts and they are not open to any historical revisionism.

In large parts of our country, at the bottom of a class-driven society governed by access to land, there was a large seething mass of cottiers and landless labourers whose sole means of existence was the potato. The potato was to these people what today's social, health and other State welfare support systems are to so many. It is beyond imagination that next week the Minister for Finance would announce in the budget that all social welfare supports are withdrawn, all FÁS schemes, community employment schemes and rent subsidies are gone, medical cards are withdrawn, free education is gone and all State support systems are to be withdrawn overnight. Trying to contemplate the impact this would have on the community brings us a little closer to understanding the tragedy of the Famine.

In the mid-19th century the potato harvest was to almost six million people, the cottiers and landless labourers, what the social welfare support system is to the people today who cannot find work and cannot house themselves. The potato harvest, following the hungry months of June, July and August when the previous year's supply of potatoes ran out, acted like a single annual social welfare payment which sustained entire families and communities for another 12 months. When that safety net snapped and the phytophthora infestans arrived, it pitched into an ever descending vortex of misery, death and emigration, a rural proletariat who had no one and nowhere to go except to a helpless alien administration physically and psychologically removed from the people.

This administration, despite having one of the most advanced systems for addressing poverty in Europe, namely, the poor law unions, was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the disaster — to put it at its kindest — evidenced by the insertion of the Gregory clause, and considered land and property before people. While some lessons were learned and applied to the Indian famines in subsequent decades, how chilling it is to realise as we stand here today thinking of famine, particularly in Korea, that not much has changed in many parts of the world.

The scale of our disaster 150 years ago is difficult, if not impossible, to imagine. Sometimes a single instance can have more impact in the telling than all statistics. A doctor in Skibbereen described the following visit:

The shed is exactly 7 feet long by about 6 feet in breadth. By the side of the western wall is a long, newly-made grave. By either gable are two of shorter dimensions which have recently been tenanted. Near the hole that serves as a doorway is the last resting place of two or three children. In fact, this hut is surrounded by a rampart of human bones which has accumulated to such a height that the threshold, which was originally on a level with the ground, is now two feet beneath it. In this horrible den, in the midst of a massive human putrefication, six individuals, males and females, labouring under the most malignant fever, were huddled together as closely as were the dead in the graves around.

These are the people we must remember as we strive to commemorate, as best we can, the tragedy of the Great Irish Famine. The Government's programme is an appropriate and respectful commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the greatest tragedy in modern Irish history. This year, 1997, is the 150th anniversary of "Black '47", and as the year draws to a close it is appropriate to have this dignified discussion of that tragic period. We must try to commemorate those who died or were forced to leave our shores.

Of what relevance is the Great Irish Famine to famine in our times? Having painted a picture of exactly how the Famine was in Ireland, what have we learned? Have we learned anything? Is there not a parallel between our experience of the 1840s and the state of the world today? In Korea it is not just that there is no food; it is that — as the excellent literature that Trócaire has published tell us — people who depend on subsistence crops which are removed from them, as the potato was removed from our people 150 years ago, do not have the purchasing power to buy alternative food supplies. That is the huge parallel. Those who have their basic staple food removed from them through natural disaster have not had an alternative food supply given them by the administration they were depending on. The Irish did not have it from the British administration of the day and the landless Korean people are not having sufficient alternative food supplied by their Government.

The fact that their Government has isolated itself from international development for so many years — they have a culture of secrecy and self-sufficiency behind closed doors — has meant that perhaps they are not able, even if they were willing, to supply food for the people. There is little point in raking up the willingness or otherwise of the administration in the 1840s to look after our people. At the time there was a laissez-faire economic system and many felt that by letting the situation resolve itself, somehow we would bring the Irish cottiers and landless labourers kicking and screaming into the modern agricultural economy that was developing on the British mainland in the 1840s.

There was also an unspoken but pervasive feeling that we deserved what had happened to us. What would you expect from such a ragged mass? They would genuflect to the concept that it was a tragedy, but maybe it would bring a better life for those who survived, while solving the problem of the teeming masses, the underclass in Ireland at the time.

What is most insidious is that, even from the modern world — and we are part of the western developed world today — there is a feeling that the North Koreans have "brought this on themselves". We will not see that printed anywhere or stated at any international forum by the heads of the UN, the IMF or of any Government, but there is a feeling that they "almost deserve it". They allied themselves with the Communist regime over the years while the western world was allied to South Korea. That difficulty went back over the decades to Kim Il Sung and the Korean war. In the same way as the Irish proletariat underclass was perceived by the British administration, it was felt that North Korea was always a sore on the global economy and that the country deserved what befell it. This parallel is an indictment of us all.

Yes, there was a downturn in the Korean economy over the years because of a failure to face the international developed world and come on board. The catalyst of natural disasters, including drought and flooding, meant that millions have been facing starvation. Over 20 million people live on a small land mass in North Korea. They were paid by the State in wages and food, but when the State ran out of cash they got nothing and there was no food due to drought.

It is a huge crisis and I join with the Minister in commending Trócaire. I thank the agency for the information they sent me on request concerning the facts of what is happening in Korea. I also thank Concern and the State agencies that have gone to Korea to try to help. However, I am not sure that collectively western Governments really faced the tragedy that has been developing in Korea over the last few years. There has been a denial in the same way that a denial culture developed in Ireland in the decades following the Famine and lasted until recently.

One of the great assets of commemorating the Famine in the open and non-contentious way we have is that we have made the Irish people face the facts. The impact the Famine had on the national psyche, including a survivors' guilt, has been opened up. In facing what actually happened to us, we recognise that we are here today because we and our forebears were survivors and in trying to establish why some survived and others died of disease and starvation or had to emigrate, we face the facts of what happened at the time. We face the fact that it was a class riven society dependent on land and that the iniquitous landlord and tenant system contributed enormously to the tragedy. The alien administration that did not reflect or respond democratically to the people's needs was responsible for exacerbating the situation. The administration did not cause the potato blight but it did cause the Famine, and there is no denying that. The administration in North Korea today did not cause the drought or the flooding, but the inadequacy of the administration in running its affairs has caused the famine. That is the big similarity between modern famines and the Great Irish Famine.

There is also the iniquitous system of indebtedness to the IMF and the World Bank by many poorer countries. As a country which survived such a tragedy and became a major economic player not only in Europe but, thankfully, in the world, I am not sure that we are contributing sufficiently to the world wide debate on cash crops that have to be grown by some of the poorest countries to repay international debts before they can grow food crops to feed their starving people. This is an enormous tragedy. That is the debate I want to see us dealing with in both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Let us see if we can contribute as a nation that survived the awful tragedy of the Famine. What a price we have had to pay to come kicking and screaming into the modern world. Famine is too high a price to pay for modernisation. There has to be another way to bring countries and economies into the modern, international, globalised and developed state in which we are other than by famine which pitches people into facing up to what to many of us seems inevitable.

There has to be a way whereby we can get in and help these Governments to face modern economic realities rather than watching them descend into the tragedy of famine which may drive them into a modern economy; but at what a price, as we stand by and let it happen?

I accept we have our ODA targets and each year successive Governments are getting closer to what the UN regards acceptable overseas development aid targets should be. Our progress has been slow, but with the rate our economy has grown in the past two or three years we should be able to accelerate the time by which we reach acceptable targets.

The people, as distinct from the Government, have been inordinately generous in their response to famine appeals over the decades. That is largely due to our tragic experience of famine. Perhaps modern communications expose famine, which results in a generous response. However, the more famine is seen on our television screens, the less impact it has. One can become inured to tragedy and famine, or donor fatigue can set in. It is becoming harder to get voluntary contributions for non-governmental organisations to continue their excellent work in places such as Korea. Our track record has been second to none in terms of people's generosity. In recent years the Government has focused on the fact that we must reach the UN target and that we are no longer considered among the poorer nations of the world. We will have great difficulty keeping our Objective 1 status when the time comes to make our case. That is both good and bad.

Let us see what we can do and how we can head towards the stage where we can be the leaders in terms of awakening world opinion to what needs to be done in the famine spots of the world today. There is sufficient food in the global economy to feed everyone. However, poorer countries, such as Korea, do not have entitlements or purchasing power. If their government fails the people, as the Government in Ireland in the 1840s failed its people during the natural disaster, the western world must step in. Governments can be shored up in a diplomatic way.

The people in Korea have been eating soup made from grass and seaweed for the past 12 months. One does not have to dig too deep in Irish literature to know that grass, seaweed and nettles were one of the people's mainstays during those terrible years in the 1840s. Deaths in both countries are mainly due to epidemic diseases rather than starvation. However, I hope that today mass immunisation makes it possible to shore up some of the worst infectious diseases in parts of the world where there is famine.

Our overseas development aid is in response to the aid Ireland received from 19 different sources during our Famine. We are now giving back what we received during our darkest hour. We know the stories about the poorhouses, workhouses and soup kitchens in Ireland. The migration of families to relief centres in Korea and other areas of famine is similar to our people's migration to the workhouses.

Both were secret famines — our Great Famine and the Korean Famine. Through lack of communication and the absence of the electronic media in the 1840s a degree of tragedy had occurred in Ireland before the story became worldwide. The administration did not face up publicly to what was happening here and in the Scottish islands and highlands. Similarly, the secret culture and operation of the state in Korea meant its attempt to move towards self-sufficiency was done behind closed doors. It was a secret famine until the non-governmental organisations revealed what was happening there.

There are many other similarities between the two famines. The great tragedy is that people are dying and will continue to die for some time in Korea through lack of an alternative food supply, now that their staple food has been destroyed in a natural disaster. In Ireland there were large exports of cattle and grain during the Famine. The laissez faire theory — governments should not become involved in the market system — was prevalent. Yet the people did not have the purchasing power to replace the potato. The people in Korea do not have the purchasing power to replace rice.

As we commemorate the great tragedy of the Irish Famine and try to remember the sacrifice many people made for a number of decades, we should learn the lesson that there must be a way to support famines in the world today where no one should die for lack of food.

As 1997 comes to a close it is appropriate that we are discussing the famine which occurred 150 years ago. There were famines between 1823 and 1847 in Ireland but it is only in recent years that literature relating to the hunger and deprivation at that time has come to the fore. It is appropriate that the Minister is here to discuss this matter of concern to those who want to remember the effects of the Famine and to address the problems of famine throughout the world.

I am glad the Minister is visiting Grosse Isle in Canada in the near future. Mr. Edward Brennan, a former Irish ambassador to Canada, noted that the great Famine was Ireland's holocaust which condemned the Irish to be the first boat people. Some 100,000 people left Ireland by boat to go to Canada, the United States and Australia. The horrific stories about unmarked graves in Liverpool are testimony to the fact that these people left Ireland as a result of the Famine.

When Senator Avril Doyle visited Australia, a series of lectures were given on the exodus of people from Ireland to Australia and what happened to them there. The amount of literature on this subject is increasing. One would not like to think about the stories of what happened on board the Catalpa and other ships which left these shores. It was easy for many people to forget the Famine in Ireland because there was no literature on it, apart from historical papers kept by academics. The publication of a book by Mrs. Cecil Woodham-Smith in 1962 was the first study of what happened to the people in Ireland. This book was a big seller as it highlighted many horrific instances of hunger and disease.

The Minister and Senator Avril Doyle said that disease caused as many deaths as starvation. Cholera was probably as big a killer as lack of food at that time. There is no county or parish in Ireland which does not have unmarked graves or Famine graveyards. However, it is difficult to find out who is buried in these graveyards as people were put in graves without any headstones.

It could be said it is difficult to equate the Famine in Ireland 150 years ago with what is happening in North Korea today, but there are parallels. One could say that Great Britain's imperialism caused the starvation and the cholera epidemics from 1823 onwards. Although there are no exact figures, approximately 1.5 million people died in the midst of plenty. At least three or four ships a day left Ireland with food at a time when people were starving. The people of Great Britain could not believe that there was famine in Ireland when food from Ireland was arriving daily into the markets of London, Liverpool and Manchester and the stores in Scotland.

The Great Starvation, the Great Hunger or the Great Famine — which was it? People died, and whether they died of starvation because of British imperialism or because of the scarcity of food is largely immaterial. Frank O'Connor once observed that "famine" is a useful word when you do not wish to use the words "genocide" or "extermination". No doubt there was a certain element of genocide and extermination involved.

Where are the parallels with what has happened in North Korea? No doubt the regime in North Korea is at fault to a large degree because, having hidden itself away from modern society, it has caused the famine there. Having said that, it is also a major natural tragedy. There have been huge floods and natural disasters over the past few years.

We must also look at what happened when the rigid Marxist/Communist regimes came into being. Over eight million people died of starvation or were killed because they would not take up Stalin's offer of collective farming in Russia and over 30 million Chinese died between 1958 and 1964. One might say that the death of 1.5 million in Ireland in the 1840s is not comparable with the eight million Russians and 30 million Chinese, but when one compares the size of the populations, the extent of the Famine in Ireland was greater proportionately.

The North Korean authorities have monopolised the basic foodstuffs, such as rice. They allowed the peasants to use and sell other foodstuffs, but the peasants were obliged to devote greater effort to the production of rice and when that crop failed the people could not sustain themselves.

A problem arose when it was suggested that marginal land should be brought into production and the same mistake was made as has been made in Africa over many years. When the original method of slash and burn farming was replaced by deep ploughing in North Korea, as in Africa, the soil was churned up, the roots of the trees and crops were taken out instead of being left in the ground and the land was eroded by the floods. This soil erosion is a partial contributor to much of the famine, deprivation and malnutrition in Africa and it has contributed to the situation in North Korea also.

The fact that North Korea is a closed society has not helped and there are suspicions that the North Korean Government is trying to use the famine as a means of control. It wants to deal in arms, but the people are starving and we must do something for them.

There is enough food in south-east Asia to feed the people of North Korea. It is suggested that there are at least 2.5 billion tonnes of rice in Japanese stores, but the authorities there are not prepared to give this rice to North Korea because it might sustain the regime. As with other places around the world, in regard to Iraq, people say "impose sanctions and they will hurt Saddam Hussein". Sanctions will not hurt Saddam Hussein; they hurt the people of Iraq. The same applies to the situation where people are dying in North Korea.

Women and children.

Exactly.

What can we do about it? The Government has made great steps in the past few years, directly in helping out in countries where human tragedy occurs and, indirectly, in helping NGOs. I sincerely hope that the fire brigade solution works and that we will continue to help. I know the Minister will increase the level of aid to North Korea by as much as possible. If there is to be sustainable development and hope that famine will not reoccur, fire brigade tactics alone are not sufficient. For that reason I am glad of the visit of technical people to assess what can be done. Only long-term planning will alleviate the problems there and in other countries.

The Irish people have responded generously to the needs of the people of North Korea and other areas of famine, perhaps because we remember subconsciously what happened in the 1840s. The Irish Famine has been described as the greatest ecological disaster of the western world of the time; I suppose one could not deny that, but the people of Ireland contributed greatly to the development of North America, Australia and Great Britain following the unfortunate exodus thereafter.

I thank the Minister for attending this useful debate at the end of 1997. I know he will keep up the pressure to ensure the Government does what it can in areas of conflict where there is starvation.

I wish Senator Ryan no disrespect but I must leave to go to a function about landmines. I will take serious note of what he has to say.

I appreciate the Minister's situation.

Ba chóir dúinn, mar a dúirt gach éinne eile, fáilte a chuir roimh an Aire. Ceapaim go gcuirfidh sé a shamhlaíocht liobrálach féin i gcion ar Ghnóthaí Eachtracha.

An rud is mó a chuireann ionadh ar dhaoine agus ormsa faoin nGorta Mór ná an ciúnas faoi i seanachas na tíre. Ní luaitear an Gorta Mór fiú amháin i gcaint na ndaoine ach an drochshaol. Cheapfá i slí amháin nach raibh cosmhuintir na tíre seo ábalta an rud a lua go díreach. Tá sé éasca a thuiscint cén fáth gur mar sin a bhí sé. Is é an fáth gur mar sin a bhí ná go ndeachaigh sé i bhfeidhm chomh láidir sin orthu nach rabhadar ábalta glacadh leis, ceangal leis nó dul i dteangbháil leis gan ach strac-fhéachaint a thabhairt air. Tá sé suimiúil gur beag comóradh a bhí sa tír seo i 1947, céad bliain tar éis an Ghorta Mhóir. Níl mé ag rá gur drochrud é sin. Ní rabhas féin ach bliain amháin ar an saol ag an am sin. B'fhéidir go raibh sé ró-chóngarach dúinn tar éis an Chogaidh Domhanda agus gur shocraigh daoine go mb'fhearr gan é a lua in aon chor in ionad a bheith ag caint faoi rud a d'osclódh piantaí agus mothucháin.

Fiú amháin fós nílimid imithe ró-fhada ón nGorta Mór. Bhí sean-athair liom féin ar an saol roimh an nGorta. Bheimis thar nais roimh an Gorta le five generations. Tá na mílte daoine sa tír seo a chuala a sean-athracha agus a seanmháthaireacha ag caint faoin nGorta, tá sé chomh cóngarach sin dúinn. Sin an fáth, b'fhéidir, nach bhfuilimid ach anois sásta labhairt faoi agus an cheist a phlé go hiomlán. Ceann de na rudaí is mó taobh amuigh de na rudaí atá luaite cheana ag cainteoirí eile anseo go gcaithimid snaoineamh gur chuir sé tús le meath na Gaeilge. D'athraigh an Gorta Mór meon an phobail agus cheap cuid mhaith daoine gurb í an Ghaeilge ceann de na rudaí a bhí á gcoimead ar cúl. Ar an ábhar sin thánig athrú ar dhearcadh na ndaoine. Mar shampla, mo shean-mháthair i dTiobrad Árann ní raibh focal Gaeilge aici cé nach raibh focal Béarla ag a sean-mháthair siúd. Tharla an t-athrú taobh istigh de dhá ghlún. Ceann de na rudaí a tharla ná nach raibh aon chumarsáid idir an dá ghlún mar go raibh teanga amháin ag glún amháin acu agus nach raibh an teanga eile ag an nglún eile. Sin an fáth gur cailleadh a lán seanchais faoin nGorta Mór.

Briseadh an leanúnachas agus an folk memory leis an nGorta Mór. Chuaigh sé chomh dian sin i bhfeidhm orainn nach raibh daoine ábalta glacadh leis. Sin an fáth go bhfuil sé tábhachtach go gcuimhneomis air, ní chun locht a chur ar rialtas a bhí ann nó nach raibh ann 150 bliain ó shin, ach chun a bheith cinnte go dtuigimid cad a tharla agus go dtuigimid gur féidir lena leithéid tárlú arís. Tá sé ag tárlú agus is beag nár thárla sé i dtuaisceart Korea le déanaí. Tárlaíonn gorta ó am go ham timpeall an domhain.

Is féidir ceachtanna a fhoghlaim ón rud a tharla sa tír seo chun a chinntiú nach dtarlóidh a leithéid arís. Caithimid féachaint siar ach caithimid glacadh leis gur thárla sé 150 bliain ó shin. Ní gan fáth a thárla gorta riamh. Is féidir a rá gur le toil Dé a thárla sé ach ní Dia a dhein an cinneadh go gcaillfí na mílte nó na milliúin daoine le gorta nó leis na galair a tharlaíonn mar gheall ar ghorta. Thárla sé de dheasca polasaí talmhaíochta, polasaí sóisialta agus go mor-mhór polasaí eacnamaíochta. Sin mar a bhí agus bí cinnte gur mar sin atá fós.

As the Minister stated, famine is rarely, if ever, an accident. It is sometimes caused by social policy or population policy but most often its is caused by economic policy or the lack thereof. The British Government's response to the Great Famine was as much driven by a nonsensical 19th century ideology of the free market as by a particular malice towards the Irish people. Indifference to the Irish people was probably the chief fault on the British Government's part. A rigid ideology which prevented its responding to and dealing with the Great Famine is the other major charge which could be made against that Government. One of the lessons we should learn from the Great Famine and the unhappy experience of the people of North Korea is to be wary of ideologies that are based not on reality but on assumptions of what is right.

I have no wish to digress but the Common Agricultural Policy is an extraordinary contradiction of the general will of the world. That policy and United States supports for farming were put in place because the security of food supplies is a major and profoundly emotive issue which goes beyond simple commerce. Governments are always concerned about the security of food supplies which motivates them to either construct models such as the CAP, which are divorced from the realities of the free market, or leave an enormous latitude in the free market in the hope of stimulating production. There seems to be a political belief that food shortages cannot be risked. For example, in the 1970s there was a shortage of pasta in Italy because of a change in government taxation policy. Despite the fact that no one starved, the shortage became a major political issue due to the fact that it is never advisable to interfere with food supplies.

If ideology did the damage in 1847 or resulted in damage being done following the onset of the potato famine, it is also true that the people of North Korea have been badly served by an extraordinary ideology. I believe in free enterprise but it was somewhat simplistic of the Minister to suggest it could be the solution to the problems of North Korea. The ideology and dictatorship which have gripped that country for many decades have played a major part in causing the current crisis. There cannot be an intelligent response to famine in a country where no one can speak or publish freely and international agencies must be careful about the action they take.

There is a lesson to be learned from North Korea. However, it is not merely in that country that rigid ideology does enormous harm to large numbers of people. To a degree famine is the absence of food rather than starvation. In large areas of South America, Africa and some parts of Asia, the IMF and the World Bank have imposed an economic ideology which makes food available. If one visits any of the major cities in South or Central America, one will see plenty of food. However, the people are so impoverished that they cannot afford to feed themselves. That is also an ideology, one which believes that certain things are necessary and worthwhile but which creates large scale malnutrition. It may protect us from the spectacle of large numbers of hungry people in one place, but it does not protect large numbers of hungry people from serious malnutrition and the consequential damage to their health.

We must be wary of ideologies — one dominates for a while and then another takes over. If they are not based on reality they produce misery. What is described as "neoliberalism" in Latin America is producing wonderful economic growth from an economist's perspective, but it is also producing profound inequality. That inequality is not manifest as famine but as large scale malnutrition, very high infant mortality rates and the return of diseases such as tuberculosis, which can be eradicated. As Senator Avril Doyle said, it is often the case that hunger is not the greatest cause of death in famine but the diseases which prevail because of malnutrition and which kill people long before hunger does.

We are in danger of allowing that to happen as the IMF imposes its will on a greater part of the developing world. There is no point in having plenty of food in society if the majority of people do not have the wherewithal to buy it. The solution to the problem of food security is not simple. Neither model works to provide adequate food for the great majority. We have discovered this in Europe and North America — one either ends up with food surpluses or food prices which make life difficult for large numbers of people. A commodity as rudimentary as fish will become a luxury in the next ten years as it becomes increasingly scarce because of overfishing. The problem is far more complex than looking back and blaming the British for what happened in 1847 or blaming Stalinism in North Korea, not that it deserves any excuses. We operate other policies which, while they do not produce spectacular famine, produce great misery.

Such phenomena do not happen by accident. Indeed, they are often deliberately willed. There is one poor country which has done a remarkable job of feeding, educating and providing health care and basic shelter for its people, yet it is the main enemy of the richest country in the world. I refer to Cuba. One does not have to give unequivocal support to the political regime in Cuba to wonder how the world can worry about famine and starvation yet watch while the most powerful country in the world attempts to crush a country which has managed to tackle successfully famine, starvation and misery.

It is always wrong to turn on peoples because one does not like their governments. It is always wrong to make life miserable for the people of a country, particularly one which is accused of not being democratic and where the people have no choice, and to try to undermine food supplies and health care. The US Government is trying to create famine in Cuba and we should say that is wrong.

North Korea has a disgusting, obnoxious and corrupt Stalinist regime. It is essentially a family which owns a country and claims it in the name of an ideology. Until recently, South Korea was not a nice place. It was a brutal dictatorship with large scale repression where students were massacred in the 1970s because they did not like their government. It is turning out to be quite a corrupt country, which explains why many of its major conglomerates and banks are in serious financial trouble. We should not busy ourselves with eulogies for what we call free enterprise, which turns out be an oligarchy in South America.

I regretted the limited way in which the Minister expressed his concern about the export of missiles by North Korea to areas of high tension in the world. He was right to mention it. However, he should have said that the export of arms to any country is a dubious practice fraught with profound moral questions. More innocent people die every year as a result of wars fought with weapons exported from the rich West than will die in the West from drugs exported by poor countries. Armaments are the single biggest killer of young people and children, far ahead of drugs. Governments of left and right in the developed West have been corrupted by the arms industry. It is impossible to have a moral arms industry. Ending the arms industry could release enormous resources. No country should export arms, and any country which wishes to arm itself it should produce its own armaments. There is no such thing as a moral arms trade, no more than there is a moral drugs trade. It may make the West rich but it does others great damage.

In examining the Great Famine or the famine in North Korea there are lessons to be learned. The first is to test an ideology against reality, and if it does not match up one should not be bound by it. In particular, let us remember what the IMF has done to the former Soviet Union, which has a spiralling infant mortality rate, rapidly dropping life expectancy and increasing numbers of people who do not have enough to eat and have nowhere to live.

Let us not talk ourselves into another ideological deadend. We should believe in the principle that anybody in any society should have a guaranteed income sufficient to feed themselves. Let us also accept that an ideologically driven external body, such as the IMF, should not be able to require a country to take apart the fabric of a basic health care system. If we do not do these things we are simply creating an illusion of affluence, leaving millions of people in starvation.

Let us also begin to engage with the biggest problem for the next century, the rapidly decaying environment. It is not something from which we will be able to protect ourselves. If we allow the environment to decay as it is at present, and will continue to do as countries such as China and India grow, the security of all will be threatened. Climate change will threaten food security everywhere. The Minister was right to say that famine does not happen by accident; it is caused. We must begin to deal with basic human rights.

I was privileged to attend a special mass of commemoration for the famine dead in the west, celebrated by his Grace the Archbishop of Tuam, the Right Reverend Dr. Neary, at the Basilica in Knock on 16 November. I attended a talk by Mr. David Alton, who said:

Famine took the land by the throat; the foul smelling breath of plague rose over the little patches of fields as the people's humble cabins became death-ridden hovels. The rotting stems of potato stalks, the stench from decayed tubers were the foreshadowing of the stench of death which would shortly follow.

Traditionally, November is a month for remembering the dead. But the legend "lest we forget" engraved on so many memorials requires also a determination to understand: to understand how these horrors came about in the first place; and to understand their relevance in our own times. The famine had no need of cenotaphs, every scattered stone had its story to tell.

Indeed, every stone has its story to tell, especially in the west.

To fully appreciate the devastation and to make comparisons with Korea, we must look at our country first. Famine was a common feature of life in the 18th and 19th centuries. During the 19th century there were famines in 1800, 1807, 1817, 1820-82, 1830-84, 1836, 1839, 1845-89, 1878-81 and again a number of times in the 1890s.

Today, we are speaking of the Great Famine of 1845-89. This should be called the Great Hunger or the Great Starvation. It was Ireland's first holocaust, one we could not prevent. The second holocaust is on its way and I hope we can prevent it. The Great Starvation, as I prefer to call it, was one of the worst catastrophes of modern Irish history. It was caused by the failure of the potato through blight which came to Europe from North America. The crisis was worse in Ireland than anywhere else because of the role of the potato in the Irish diet. For one third of the population, it was the sole article of diet. The poorest peasant rented a piece of land on which to grow potatoes, other crops were used to pay the rent and even at the height of the Famine, millions of pounds worth of food left Irish ports often passing ships bringing in the hated Indian corn which, known colloquially as Peel's brimstone, was distributed for relief.

Even after 150 years, the Famine or the tragedy which began in late summer 1845 is one of the greatest human ecological disasters of the world. When the fungus had run its course at least 1.5 million, possibly as many as two million, Irish had died and another 1.5 million had emigrated. No one can fully capture in words the magnitude or intensity of suffering and the hardship endured by the Irish people from 1845 to 1850.

It is very interesting to look at the figures. Speaking at St. Nathy's College in Ballaghaderreen at a conference reported on 21 July 1977 in The Irish Times a former Senator, Dr. Joe Lee, spoke on the Great Famine between memory and history. He addressed the question of famine death figures illustrating how these often reflected the political sympathies of historians. He began with John Mitchell's assertion in 1858 that 1.5 million had died, tracing the figures through to 1896 when a retired poor law official, Mr. W. T. O'Brien, put the figure at 300,000.

A study by a Welsh geographer in the early 1960s put the figure at 800,000. With the outbreak of the Northern troubles in the late 1960s, the Famine death figure was played down to 500,000 for fear of giving encouragement to the IRA. However, a study by a Dutch American Jew published in 1983 indicated that 1.1 million people had probably died. It does not really matter — it sad people died at all.

The British call it the Great Famine. The scarcity of food was blamed on the weather, the potato fungus and perhaps most of all on the Malthusian notion of over-population. The Irish had overbred and there was not enough food to feed them given the crop failure. However, as Frank O'Connor once observed, famine is a useful word when you do not wish to used words like "genocide" and "extermination". The terms are philosophically embodied in what I call the Great Starvation, which is more a realistic way to refer to a time when Irish peasants starved in the midst of plenty. Wheat, oats, barley, butter, eggs, beef and pork were exported from Ireland in large quantities during the so-called Famine. In fact, eight ships left Ireland daily carrying many foodstuffs.

Robert Kee in his famous book Ireland — A History said that on 14 November 1848 the following produce was exported from Cork:

147 bales of bacon

120 casks and 135 barrels of pork

5 casks of hams

149 casks miscellaneous provisions

1,996 sacks, and 950 barrels of oats

300 bags of flour

300 head of cattle

239 sheep

9,398 firkins of butter

542 boxes of eggs

He also gives figures which illustrate that during this period of starvation food was being exported from other ports such as Kilrush, Tralee, Limerick and elsewhere. The figures speak for themselves; they are a sad reflect on the Government of the time.

Dorothy Macardle in her book The Republic said:

The famine was not a natural one. There were excellent grain harvests that year in Ireland: there was enough grain in the country to keep the whole population supplied with food.

The Times of 26 June 1845 stated:

The people have not enough to eat. They are suffering a real though artificial famine. Nature does her duty; the land is fruitful enough, nor can it be fairly said that man is wanting. The Irishman is disposed to work; in fact man and nature together do produce abundantly. The island is full and overflowing with human food. But something ever intervenes between the hungry mouth and the ample banquet.

Something intervened all right and that something was simple. Rents had to be paid. The grain was claimed by the landlords in payment and the Government refused to close the ports. In The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps), John Mitchell recorded the rage and despair when the people saw “immense herds of cattle, sheep and hogs. . . floating off on every tide, out of every one of our thirteen seaports, bound for England; and the landlords were receiving their rents and going to England to spend them; and many hundreds of poor people had laid down on the roadsides, for want of food”.

The relief schemes which the Government instituted were largely ineffective, imposing hampering conditions and employing a great number of officials. In four years over 700,000 people died of hunger and famine fever and more than 800,000 fled from Ireland in emigrant ships, "coffin ships" as they were called. The Famine was added to by the terror of eviction. Whole villages were being razed to the ground. Speaking in the House of Lords on 23 March 1846, Lord John Russell said that more than "50,000 families had, in one year, been ‘turned out of their wretched dwellings without pity and without refuge'. We have made Ireland, I speak it deliberately — we have made it the most degraded and most miserable country in the world. . All the world is crying shame upon us; but we are equally callous to our ignominy and to the results of our misgovernment". On 3 June 1879 referring to an official report on evictions, Sir Robert Peel said: "I do not think the records of any country, civilised or barbarous, present material for such a picture."

In the three years following the end of the Famine vast numbers of men, women and children were evicted and a great number of them perished from exposure and disease. The census of 1851 showed that in six years nearly two million of the population had disappeared. The number of people in the country, including a Great British army of occupation, had fallen to 6.6 million. The census report submitted: "In conclusion, we feel it would be gratifying to Your Excellency to find that, although the population has been diminished in so remarkable a manner by famine, disease and emigration and has since been decreasing, the results of the Irish census are, on the whole, satisfactory".

In 1854, the Quarterly Review, stated:

The cabins of the peasantry were pulled down in such numbers as to give the appearance, throughout whole regions of the South, and still more of the West, of a country devastated and desolated by the passage of a hostile army.

A French writer, Monsieur Paul-Dubois, stated in Contemporary Ireland that Ireland had become, in English eyes

. . a conquered country, from which nothing need be feared, from which nothing could be hoped; a country that was done for, that could never revive, and towards which the best policy to pursue was to draw from it as large a tribute as possible, of men for the army, and of money for the Empire.

In The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps), Mitchell wrote:

The Almighty indeed sent the potato blight but the English created the famine. . a million and a half men, women and children were carefully, prudently and peacefully slain by the English Government. They died of hunger in the midst of abundance which their own hands created.

Such sentiment expressed by such great an Irishman who witnessed these horrors must always linger and refute any revisionist attempts to obscure reality.

We must learn a lesson and be wary of revisionism because it would appear revisionism is an attempt to undermine the basis of Irish nationalism and leave Ireland without heroes of historical memory. It also plays down the British responsibility for the catastrophic aspects of Irish experience. It was none other than William Makepeace Thackary who characterised British colonialism in Ireland as follows:

It is a frightful document against ourselves. . . one of the most melancholy stories in the whole world of insolence, rapine, brutal, endless slaughter and persecution on the part of the English master, .. There is no crime ever invented by eastern or western barbarians, no torture or Roman persecution or Spanish Inquisition, no tyranny of Nero or Alva but can be matched in the history of England in Ireland.

It is time for us to stop being euphemistic about the Famine and to call it what it was. It was a starvation based on systematic British exploitation of the people, inaction in the face of potato crop failure and a vindictive racist attitude towards us. The events of 1845-50 were truly a holocaust. In 1904, Michael Davitt, the founder of the Irish Land League, called it a holocaust. James Connolly said: "The English administration of Ireland during the famine was a colossal crime against the human race". The Minister referred to Grosse Ile. It is worth remembering that in August 1989, Dr. Edward J. Brennan, Ireland's Ambassador to Canada, noted that "The Great Famine was Ireland's holocaust (which) condemned the Irish to be the first boat people of modern Europe".

We should never forget the terrible suffering which occurred between 1845 and 1850 and fix it indelibly on our personal collective consciousness. My family was desecrated by the Great Starvation; half of them emigrated and some died. Those who remained were extremely poor. Fortunately, both branches of our family prospered, but we were not fully reintegrated until 1980, more than 100 years after the Great Starvation. The Famine is a very real memory, alive and well in my family. We forgive but we never forget, because if we forget we fail to learn the lessons of history.

The Minister said we are good people to empathise with the Koreans. I know the Korean people well because I work with the Hospitaller Order of St. John of God who have a number of establishments in Korea. They are like us in many respects and I hope it will not be too long before, like ourselves, they will be reunited. Although the immediate crisis in Korea has passed, we are told the harvest this year is poor and without further aid nothing will happen. I am delighted the Minister said we will offer aid. It is good that, in the year of the Celtic tiger, we can send aid to others, but we must not forget our own poor people — the homeless, travellers and other disadvantaged groups.

In times of plenty it is common for nations to become arrogant, selfish and self-centred. In such times we must seek to nurture and protect the most vulnerable and helpless and to prevent a second holocaust here — in this case I refer to the holocaust of abortion, which is on our doorstep. The Minister used a phrase, the rough translation of which is, it is in the shelter of each others' lives that people live. We should not forget that.

In one of Daniel O'Connell's last speeches he said:

Ireland is in your hands. . she is in your power. . If you do not save her she can't save herself. And I solemnly call on you to recollect that I predict with the sincerest conviction that one quarter of her population will perish unless you come to her relief.

Those words fell on deaf ears, but O'Connell's challenging words resonate down the pages of history, speaking prophetically to the indifferent and hardened hearts of our generation. There is sufficient food in the world to feed the hungry. Ireland has sufficient food to feed its own people. Ireland has sufficient funds to feed, clothe and house its population and we should have enough to aid other nations. If we do not remember our desperate past, we cannot possibly empathise with the future and the desperate present of other nations like the North Koreans. I trust that our aid will be increased. It is a regime of which I do not approve, and most other Senators have said likewise. Remember, it is governments which control and make laws and regulations, not the poor, the destitute, the homeless or the hungry. We must strive to send aid to these people. We have had one holocaust in this country, let us not have another one and let us try to prevent one happening somewhere else.

Tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil an Gorta Mór á phlé sa Seanad inniu agus go raibh ar chumas an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha bheith i láthair agus ráiteas a chur ós ár gcomhair. Chuir mé an-suim ins na rudaí a bhí le rá ag gach duine sa díospóireacht go dtí seo. Tá áthas ar leith orm nár ligeamar don tráth seo imeacht thart gan cuimhneachán a dhéanamh sa tír, go mórmhór ar leibhéal áitiúil. Is beag condae sa tír seo nach raibh cuimhneachán áitiúil aige, cuma beag nó mór. An chúis leis sin ná go bhfuil mothúchán andoimhin ann maidir leis an Gorta Mór. Tá andíomá orm go mbéadh aon athscríobh á dhéanamh ar stair na hÉireann. Tá a fhios againn gur déanadh iarracht athscríobh a dhéanamh ar an stair ach, buíochas le Dia, bhí go leor daoine ann, idir scríbhneoirí agus gnáth-dhaoine, nár lig le daoine a theastaigh uathu athrú a dhéanamh ar ár stair dul chun cinn a dhéanamh.

I was delighted the Minister came to the Seanad and made a statement on the Great Irish Famine, especially in the context of the famine now raging in North Korea. It is appropriate that this Minister came before us because he has a pre-eminent record in the area of human rights.

In New York a law was recently enacted dictating that all schoolchildren would be taught about the Irish Famine and that it would be put in the same context as the Holocaust or any other acknowledged major world violations of human rights. That is significant. It is also significant and appropriate that the Canadian Government bowed to national and international pressure to ensure there would be a fitting memorial at Grosse Ile. It was one of those occasions when the Irish diaspora, particularly in North America, supported by Irish people at home, worked in a united manner to ensure the memorial was established. The former Uachtarán na hÉireann, Mary Robinson, made a pilgrimage to Grosse Ile and spoke of the great tragedy of the Irish Famine. She said the greatest memorial we could erect to those who died, suffered and survived that tragic period would be to ensure that other people would not find themselves without friends at time of famine or deprivation.

We are all aware that the Irish Famine traumatised our spirit up until now. That is one of the reasons commemoration was so important: it enabled us as a people to relieve that trauma and to grieve for the great suffering of our ancestors at the time. It is particularly sad that people would find it necessary to make an effort to revise Irish history. We are all aware through local history and folk memory what the Great Famine was. It happened not that long ago. In fairness to those who suffered, it is vital we are authentic in any commemoration we have. That is not to suggest there should be any lingering bitterness towards those who caused it. At the same time, if we forget, there is always a grave danger we will allow the same to happen again, if not in our country, then in some other part of the world.

One of the positive developments of the Irish Famine was that the Irish nation survived and that our people clawed their way out of the pit of depression in which they found themselves. They spread to the four corners of the earth, and in their adopted homes they used their newly found opportunities not only for their development and enhancement but for that of the people with whom they now lived. It is through that exodus from Ireland that we developed a huge Irish nation in exile. Over 40 million people of Irish extraction live today in North America. Tens of millions of people of Irish descent are to be found in Britain, Australia and other parts of the world.

Those of us lucky enough to travel abroad have discovered that Ireland has few enemies in the international fraternity. There is little hostility towards us. One of the main reasons is that we never colonised any other country. We sent peacekeeping forces, missionaries, architects and many others abroad in the service of sharing. For the same reason it is important that we do not forget our past when a situation arises such as that in North Korea. We should not forget those who did not ignore us at such a time. People came to our aid, irrespective of religion or political allegiance. Perhaps they did not do so in great numbers; nevertheless, they helped us in those traumatic days.

The Minister rightly linked North Korea with the Irish Famine. I accepted an invitation to visit both North and South Korea. I found the people to be very cultured and dignified. I saw many similarities with the early years of our development, particularly in agriculture. Having met the people, one does not think of them as statistics but as fellow human beings. When an opportunity arises we should not neglect them.

I am pleased that Trócaire was successful in raising £2.3 million for North Korea. No other European country reached an equivalent figure. There are some improvements in the situation in North Korea. The rice crop is being harvested, but there will be a shortfall of two million tonnes. This means that there will be a recurrence of the famine in the near future.

New political alignments and movements exist today. Many changes have taken place in the last ten years and it is conceivable that North Korea will wish to be a part of that new alignment in the near future. It will find it difficult not to do so because its former colleagues will be a part of that alignment. It is important that we give North Korea the opportunity to do likewise and treat it with generosity.

I was greatly impressed by South Korea and found a spirit of reconciliation when reading the editorials in its English speaking newspapers. This was a spirit of seeking to bring about a harmonisation of the two parts of Korea. I was pleased to read in last Sunday's newspapers that formal talks will begin in Geneva on 9 December involving North and South Korea, the United States and China. These talks will attempt to negotiate a lasting agreement to replace the armistice which ended the Korean War of 1950-53.

In such a context Ireland can play a vital role for the reasons I have enunciated. We can be seen as an honest broker in any international development and not to be one-sided. We come from an oppressed background; yet we are capable, not only of overcoming the difficulties involved, but of forgiving those responsible. However, I wish to sound a note of warning. I visited Moscow shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union and I was ashamed to see how deprived the people had become. I was ashamed to see how a dignified people could be brought almost to their knees with no food. No sensible, generous or logical person could suggest that it is in anyone's interest to bring to its knees a country which must be brought into the broader fraternity of nations. It is vital that such countries are helped in the early transition period so that they can reach their full potential.

Some years ago Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann invited two North Korean performing groups to Ireland for a number of weeks. We believe that, through culture and diversity and the distinctive traditions of different nations, we can bring about a spirit of reconciliation. I have always believed that dialogue is the great weapon of peace. It is the only weapon we should consider when trying to normalise relations throughout the world. In the dialogue we had with our North Korean friends we discovered a hunger and thirst for knowledge of the wider world. We should use every opportunity to address this desire.

It is easy to have an empty commemoration of the Famine. However, as I travelled abroad and spoke to the Irish community, I realised that not only was the trauma of the Irish Famine still very much with our people, but they were also seeking ways of helping other countries. It was evident from the Minister's statement that the Government has given much thought as to how to help solve problems in other parts of the world, particularly in North Korea. There are difficulties and it would not be helpful to this debate or to the potential of the situation to ignore them. Courage and independence of thought are very important at times such as this. Ireland is well placed to demonstrate that courage and independence of thought. I compliment the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, for ensuring that we had the opportunity to express heartfelt views on our own great tragedy of genocide and ensuring that the lessons we have learned will be used in a positive manner to help other countries, such as North Korea, when they find themselves in difficulty.

It is right that this House has the opportunity to debate the Irish famine of 1845-47 and to draw comparisons with other famines, particularly that in North Korea. There are famines all over the developing world, particularly in Africa, where millions of people are at risk of starvation. Without taking from the seriousness of the problem in North Korea, there are larger famines in Africa. However, they are no longer sexy issues for the media because they have dealt with them before.

Famine stalks the land in Liberia which is emerging from a civil war. There is little reportage of Somalia, which has virutally no Government and where anarchy almost exists. There are no accurate figures for the annual rate of starvation in these countries. Some African countries of relative prosperity suffer terrible local famines. Relatively developed countries such as Kenya and Malawi all suffer famine due to crop failure. Hundreds of people die of diseases related to malnourishment as a result of food shortages.

We have matured enormously in this country. In 1945-47, the centenary of the Irish Famine, it was hardly mentioned because we had a certain inferiority complex about it. Officially and at every other level it was decided to ignore that seminal event in our history. As the Minister said, we have moved on in terms of history. I am delighted that we can now look in a mature way at the Famine and its true causes. We no longer view it with a sense of shame.

Out of every bad event good events can follow. Something not often mentioned is the enormous influence the Irish post-Famine immigrants had in the United States, especially in developing the political culture of that country. After the civil war in the United States a whole new political culture developed, as is the nature of any country going through a civil war. The Irish, as one of the English speaking groups of immigrants arriving in droves in the United States, highly politicised by events at home, quickly filled the political vacuum there forming the Democratic Party. The Irish became extremely strong and almost invented the political culture. This is not acknowledged by historians but it is a fact proved by the influence of the Irish in Boston, Chicago and New York.

The post-Famine immigrants had an enormous influence on political development for the reasons I have given. If you came from Germany to the United States at the end of the 19th century you spoke German and that was a disadvantage. If you came from any other European country you did not have the same level of politicisation as the Irish. One thing about us being part of the UK from 1800 onwards was that we participated in the political system. I know the franchise was limited for the Irish as it was for everybody in the United Kingdom at that time but least we were part of one of the world's democracies, in so far as democracy existed in the 19th century.

After the great Reform Bill of 1832 at least Irish MPs went to Westminster. The Irish MPs in four of Gladstone's administrations in the 19th century held the balance of power. That had an enormous impact on the politicisation of the Irish population. They brought that knowledge of politics with them to the new world and made an enormous contribution to the political development of one of the greatest democracies. Some people might disagree with me giving that plaudit to the United States but I believe it is true.

Last year many people said the British should apologise to the Irish nation for the Famine. I wonder about that. Often historians ignore the fact that there were local famines in Britain at the same time. The potato failure was a phenomenon which occurred in Wales and south east England at the same time. The blight had not been seen on these islands until then. There were no anti fungal sprays at that time to save the crop. There were local famines in the south east of England, a prosperous part of that country nowadays, where there were small farming communities. The landlord system in Britain was even more prevalent than it was here. The response was the same. People died of starvation in Wales, Devon and Cornwall but it is not written about as the number of people who died would probably be in the hundreds. Sir Charles Trevelyn's response to events in Kent was the same. He was the true laissez faire politician of his time. Laissez faire was very much in vogue in developing economic theory at the time. Governments felt if these things happened it was not the duty of Government to intervene where the economic system failed to the extent that food production failed and people starved. Political thinking was not as developed as it is now. Now we would find it abhorrent if the economic system failed and did not produce enough food. Resources would have to be redistributed to ensure that nobody died of hunger.

There is ambivalence about this. The economic system in this part of the world would never cause a famine because of the complicated system we have developed over the years, the level of prosperity and the technology in the agricultural industry. In the European Union we produce more food than we need. A very large percentage of the population, myself included, is obese because of overeating. But we live in the global village and in Africa and Korea, there are millions of people starving or at risk of starvation. The best we do is pay lip service. The developed world donates enormous sums of money in assistance to these poor countries. On the other side of the balance sheet, those poor countries pay back to the developed world in annual loan repayments greater amounts than they receive in annual transfers to them to deal with their development and food production problems. We do not stand on very good moral ground. While we would decry it if it happened in our part of the world, the response the developed world makes to these countries in not adequate by any means. Everybody acknowledges the generosity of the Irish people to the developing world and to those countries that have problems that relate directly to their capacity to produce enough food to sustain their own populations, but remember Ireland's overseas development assistance is not yet even half of the United Nations target for overseas development assistance for a developed country. This year we will reach 0.34 of one per cent whereas the target is 0.7 of one per cent.

The figure is still one of the highest in the world.

While in the current year we will be transferring a substantial sum of money to the Third World nevertheless the amount is about half of what we would be morally obliged to donate under a direction from the United Nations, the premier international organisation to which we subscribe and of which we proclaim ourselves to be a model member in every way. We do not have a good reputation in terms of that target.

At the time of the war which divided North Korea and South Korea in the early 1950s, Kim Ilsung, one of the last old-fashioned Stalinist tyrants who died some years ago, was ruler. It was amazing that there was massive mourning for a man who kept his country in the stone age in so many areas. The society was totally closed in the manner in which Albania was closed. He has been succeeded by his son, Kim Jong-il.

The international community must keep pressure on that country to bring about some better form of government. The tragedy of North Korea should not have happened and it is directly related to bad Governments. The country isolated itself from the rest of the world. A country can be independent and sovereign, but its internal mechanisms of government must be related to its people and their needs.

Sitting suspended at 1.5 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.
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