Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Apr 1999

Vol. 159 No. 2

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

Before I propose the Order of Business, I must say how pleased I was with last night's "Oireachtas Report" and the time allocated to the Seanad, which was quite justified. It was worthwhile and showed the nation the meaningful work being done here. On many occasions, we have had unkind words for RTE but I compliment it this morning.

The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 3. No. 1 will be taken without debate and No. 2, statements on East Timor, will conclude no later than 11.45 a.m. and contributions of Senators will not exceed seven minutes. No. 3 is Report and Final Stages of the Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill, 1999.

Mr. Manning

The Order of Business is agreed. I do not have to remind the House that today many of our county councils are celebrating the centenary of their establishment. It would be appropriate within the next week or two to have not only a debate on the local government system but to look back on one hundred years of our county councils and ahead to the challenges and at the changes which have taken and need to take place in that system. I am sure many Members would have a great deal of worthwhile things to say on that topic and that the Leader will set aside time for that debate.

Yesterday I and the other leaders raised the question of a debate on the aftermath of the Sheedy affair which we should have next week, if possible. Serious issues have been raised. Now that the dust has settled, for the moment at least, I ask for time for that debate.

I remind the Leader of our old friend Superintendent Geary. This issue was first raised by Senator Rory Kiely and myself and, subsequently, by many other Senators. He is not getting any younger and it would be the wish of all parties and Members of the House that the Government would come to a speedy decision on this matter. There are strong grounds for asking that this be done as quickly as possible.

Mr. O'Toole

I reiterate what I said yesterday and what Senator Manning said today about the need for a debate on the Sheedy case. I am very unhappy with the way these people were treated. I am not making a judgment on their guilt or innocence but believe due process and fair procedures were not followed. It was as close to constructive dismissal as could be seen in any workplace and no trade union would have allowed it to happen. The end result may have been disproportionate to the case. There are serious issues with which we must deal.

When I spoke yesterday I had not seen the Friday night interview on RTE news in which one of the people involved talked about not getting due process. That is precisely the point which worries me. They were offered an impossible choice which no trade union would have allowed and no group of workers would have accepted. While not making a judgment on their guilt or innocence, I am deeply unhappy about the way in which three public servants have been dealt with. It may be that they got what they deserved but I have not seen due process and fair procedures followed. I do not see that what happened was proportionate to the events. As a Member of the Oireachtas, I would like to be aware of those issues.

I want this issue debated in detail but do not want people to get carried away with what I have said. I am not making a judgment on guilt or innocence but am unhappy with people being offered such a choice. If it happened to a teacher, I would scream unfair dismissal. I do not believe this matter was dealt with properly but do not blame the Government or anybody else.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will appreciate he must not pre-empt the debate on the matter.

Mr. O'Toole

I know I have gone out of bounds in terms of what I have said on the Order of Business. I wish to impress on the Leader that serious issues are involved which need to be addressed. I will ask questions of every speaker when this debate takes place. I want everybody to declare whether they have asked a Minister for Justice to ameliorate a sentence for anyone. We, and the public, need to know how the system works and be aware of the demands we have in all directions. That is not a reflection on anybody.

I refer to mandatory reporting which I have raised many times. The Leader has given assurances in good faith that it will be discussed and both Government parties have clear views on it. Currently, there is no huge headline child abuse case and, therefore, this is not a reactionary request. There is a need for professional people, such as teachers and health care workers, to know where they stand when disclosures of child abuse are made. There is also a need to protect children, which is not happening. Committees were set up to examines these issues and I am worried about the direction they are taking. I call on the Minister to come into the House and debate the issue with us and, in particular, I want the Government to put its views on the record before these committees report. However, I trust the views of the Members on such issues.

Mr. Costello

I agree with the Leader that it was pleasant to watch "Oireachtas Report" at a reasonable hour. One did not need to be an insomniac to watch it and I hope that is an indication of what is to follow in the weeks and months ahead.

We raised the Sheedy case yesterday and the fact that it was raised again by the two previous speakers reflects the need for an urgent debate on it which I call on the Leader to schedule next week. Specific issues are involved which relate to the resignations but there are also broader issues in terms of our responsibility as Members of the Oireachtas and how that will manifest itself in future. The Oireachtas is the appropriate forum – it has been discussed in the media – and it is time that we had an opportunity to discuss it in detail.

I echo Senator Manning's remarks on the centenary of local government. What is the status of the extensive legislation promised by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in this regard? Extensive reform measures, which were discussed in the context of a new consolidation Bill for local government, have not been introduced. The Minister also promised 18 months ago to introduce legislation on unfinished estates in response to a Bill that was initiated in the House during Private Members' Business by the Labour Party.

No indication has been given on the future of vocational education committees. The Minister for Education and Science promised legislation before the local elections. However, the committees must be established in June and the membership will be changed again if this new legislation is introduced. There is a lack of action in this area and I want to know when this corpus of legislation will be introduced.

Mr. Dardis

It is appropriate that we record the fact that 100 years ago today county councils met for the first time. It is also worth recording – and I am sure the Seanad will be interested in this aspect of the first meeting – that the date was changed in order not to clash with the Punchestown race meeting. Priorities have not changed in the intervening period. There was a remarkable change in the franchise at the time and the legislation was far-sighted. Senator's Manning call for a debate is appropriate and we should also discuss the issues raised by Senator Costello.

I am sure everybody is relieved that "Oireachtas Report" did not reduce the viewing figures for the Manchester United-Juventus football match by virtue of the fact that programmes did not clash. I am sure it would have had a remarkable effect on that sporting event, particularly in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Coogan

Previous speakers called for a debate on local government and I wish to refer to two matters. Senator Costello referred to the consolidation Bill promised by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and I wish to see that before the House as soon as possible; it has been a long time coming. The second matter, which was raised by Senator Manning, is the celebration of the centenary of local government. Yesterday, the President, Mrs. McAleese, invited the General Council of County Councils to Áras an Uachtaráin to celebrate its centenary. Originally, it represented councils North and South, which was wonderful. The President's speech at the celebration on the contribution of local government should be published.

I congratulate the Minister for Education and Science on his proposal to create 5,000 new places to meet the current deficit in technology graduates. Will the Leader ask him to look at the number of students who drop out from institutes of technology and universities during their first year? If they were kept in the system, it would be a cheaper way of meeting the technological deficit.

Mr. Norris

I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on the way the legal system works, although all of us know that it is an old boys system. We talk about separation of powers, yet the appointments of judges and registrars are political. I reiterate my call yesterday for an inquiry into the office of the county registrar. The holder of that office acted in a quasi-judicial manner with no accountability whatsoever and, of course, there is concern about the arbitrary and capricious method of listings in the courts.

When will the Leader schedule a debate on the question of refugees, given that four motions on the Order Paper relate to this issue? It is important that it is debated at this time because of the concern expressed by the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin who had quite sharp things to say about the way in which the system is administered by the authorities here. These were echoed and supported, despite the protests of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, by medical groups at their conferences where there was a suggestion of a creeping big brother approach by the Department, which is trying to get them to report asylum seekers who seek medical assistance and has apparently given an instruction that asylum seekers and refugees should be disbarred from access to education. Yet we have the almighty cheek to say that we will accept 1,000 refugees from Kosovo. Into what system are these people being brought? Do they know what is in front of them if they are treated similarly to the refugees and asylum seekers already here?

I am sure that the House is saddened by the awful massacre in Denver, Colorado. A number of Members have visited the Irish community there. At the time of the Starr inquiry I said that no decent person could vote for the Republican Party. The Republican Party in Colorado is currently campaigning for an extension of the availability of guns to cover concealed weapons. Echoing the words of the "Trench Coat Mafia", I say that no sane person could vote for the Republican Party in America.

Dr. M. Hayes

What I wanted to say in regard to the centenary of the Local Government Act has been pre-empted by other Members. I felt that I should speak as a former local government officer and one who worked under that Act for many years. I wish that Act were shown to contemporary parliamentary draftsmen because I wonder why legislation cannot be written in the clear and precise terms of old. The House should have an opportunity to pay tribute to county councillors and their officials. Local government is the oldest part of our elected democracy. It was the first essay at popular control of administration and it has stood the test of time and adapted to change. Over the years it has served society well and we should recognise that.

Perhaps the Leader could ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to take an interest in the case of Mr. Anwar Ibrahim in Malaysia, who is being subject to a quasi-political trial which bears little resemblance to due process.

Mr. Connor

I support the call for a debate on the Sheedy case. There were two reports on the case last week, one by the Chief Justice and the other by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Both reports were lodged in the Library and debated in the other House, and we should debate them as soon as possible. The Department's report recommended that the prison sentence review board should be put on a statutory footing, having existed on a non-statutory footing since 1989. Will the Leader approach the Minister to ensure this legislation is quickly brought forward, and perhaps introduced in this House?

I join in the celebration of 100 years of local government, but there is some confusion about what we are celebrating. Senator Dardis said it was the centenary of the first meetings of local authorities, while Senator Hayes seemed to indicate it was the centenary of the passing of the Local Government Act. I think Senator Dardis is right but perhaps the Leader can clear this up.

Mr. Coogan

He was not there.

Mr. Dardis

Perhaps in a previous incarnation.

Mr. Connor

From his vast fund of information about local councils he may be able to tell us what we are commemorating today.

Ms Keogh

We are in the examination season – the leaving certificate oral examinations have started, as I know to my family's cost. It is there fore timely to ask the Leader to inquire of the Minister for Education and Science when the group examining the points system intends to report. Senator Coogan's point about drop out rates from institutes of technology may also be pertinent to the points system and the matching of skills which young people need in further education.

Mr. Quinn

It is reported today that the EU may ban all US beef from mid-June. This is of great concern to Ireland because the trade war between the US and Europe, which was first about bananas and has now turned to beef, threatens our exports. It is 40 years since Dr. T. K. Whitaker introduced the first programme for economic expansion which made us an exporting country. We are now totally dependent on exports and I sense we are not aware of the dangers to us from a trade war between the US and Europe. We may not need to debate this but the Leader should bring this concern to the attention of the Tánaiste and anyone else connected with trade.

I repeat my remarks yesterday about the urgent need for a debate on Partnership for Peace, not only in the context of the Kosovo crisis but in light of the danger that the nation may not debate the issue before the Government proposes to join the body. Senator Mooney said yesterday that the issue had been well debated inside Fianna Fáil but as a nation we have not debated our involvement in PfP and it should not be sprung on us having been debated only in one party. This is an ideal opportunity for the House to debate the subject.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I am delighted to hear Senator Quinn has adopted the Banotti position on the issue.

Mr. Dardis

Is that a party position?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I join Senator Manning in calling for a debate on the Sheedy case. It is an important matter and the House should discuss both reports. It is easy to jump on bandwagons and castigate the legal system and the Judiciary. Senator Norris has castigated the old boys club but as a Member from the Trinity College panel perhaps he should not refer to that.

Mr. Norris

The Senator's party has provided quite a few judges. Protect the rotten borough.

Mr. Cassidy

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Dardis, Coogan, Norris, Hayes, Connor, Costello and Taylor-Quinn all expressed congratulations on the 100 years of local government. I can confirm for Senator Connor that today is the 100th anniversary of the first sitting of local councils. As most Members are here because of the confidence placed by local authority members in us to be effective parliamentarians and to represent their views and work, I am pleased to announce that I will allow time next Thursday, from 11 a.m. to 2.30 p.m., for Members to pay tribute to the great work carried out in a voluntary capacity by local authority members on behalf of the people of Ireland. If necessary I will extend the time allowed on that day.

Mr. Norris

The Leader should have the debate every Thursday, then we need not come in.

Mr. Cassidy

Given the many concerns expressed about the Sheedy case, I propose an open-ended debate next Thursday from 2.30 p.m. Many people are justifiably worried about this matter and it warrants the urgent attention of the House.

I note the continuing concern of Senator Manning and Senator Kiely about the case of Superintendent William Geary. I will contact the Minister in the next few days and will inform the Senators how this is progressing. I take Senator O'Toole's point about mandatory reporting of child abuse and will leave time for a debate. Senator Norris called for a debate on refugees and I will allow time for that also.

He also expressed concern about the slaughter in Denver, Colorado which has appalled everyone. It was shocking and beyond the most horrific nightmares of any parent that it should have happened. I hope the American people and President Clinton will take urgent action to prevent young people carrying guns, which is a shameful disgrace. We have a great society and Legislature and such an event could not happen as easily here as it could in the US.

I will pass on Senator Hayes's views to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. In response to Senator Connor, I will do my best to have the Prison Sentence Review Board Bill initiated in the House. Senator Keogh expressed concerns about the review group on the examination points system. The Minister of State will be here to deal with legislation and perhaps the Senator could take up the matter with him then.

Senator Quinn referred to the serious problem the country may face with regard to exports. I agree with the sentiments expressed and I will allow at least four hours the week after next for a debate on these concerns with the Minister in attendance. Senator Quinn and others have provided a lot of employment and have much experience in this area. I invite him to take the lead on this matter in considering how seriously this will affect our nation.

Yesterday I agreed to have a debate on Partnership for Peace. It is worthwhile discussing and I will make time available for this.

Mr. Manning

Will Report Stage of the Qualifications (Education and Training) Bill be taken at noon or immediately after statements on East Timor?

Mr. Cassidy

It will be taken not later than 11.45 a.m.

Order of Business agreed to.