Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 May 1999

Vol. 159 No. 5

Irish Sports Council Bill, 1998: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I am very pleased to bring this Bill before the Seanad today. Through the establishment of the first ever statutory Irish Sports Council, the Bill allows a new framework to be created which aims to secure a more focused and strategic approach to the promotion and development of sport in this country. The sports council established by the Bill will be responsible for a broad range of executive functions and will have a role far beyond the advisory role of the current non-statutory sports council.

The Bill is another manifestation of the Government's commitment to sport, a commitment signalled at the outset by the Taoiseach. When nominating a Minister for sport for the first time and establishing the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation, he made it clear that "sport has the same importance for national well-being as, for example, art and culture".

Sport is an intrinsic part of Irish society, with the ability to touch each and every one of us. Throughout the country every day of the year, thousands of people are involved in playing, coaching and administering their sports. Active participation in sport, whether at a competitive or recreational level, contributes greatly to the health and well-being of the individual and society as a whole.

Sport can play a preventative role in the fight against crime and drug use, especially among young people. Active involvement in sport can help foster a sense of confidence and self-esteem and counteract the problems of isolation and social exclusion. The achievements of our top competitors and the hard work, commitment and dedication that lie behind their success serve to inspire, encourage and raise all our spirits.

The level of interest in this Bill was evident during the debate in the other House where overwhelming support facilitated its smooth passage. I am sure Senators will agree it is crucially important that we get right the various core components of any legislation that breaks new ground in institutional development. In this regard, I am satisfied that this legislation, strengthened by the amendments I was pleased to bring forward and accept during the Bill's passage through the Dáil, will prove effective and durable.

The role of the new council will be to plan and support the future development of Irish sport in conjunction with the various sports organisations and thousands of volunteers who have been sport's lifeblood in Ireland for generations.

The Bill constitutes the latest and perhaps most important stage in the Government's intention to bring new drive and momentum to the development of Irish sport. In the interim, a number of long-standing schemes have been reviewed. For example, the grant scheme for national governing bodies has been rationalised, simplified and re-designed specifically to facilitate more planning and greater strategy on the part of these bodies in developing and promoting their respective sports.

A comprehensive review of the sports capital programme has been completed. The report of the review group was presented to me in December 1998. Based on its recommendations, a detailed application form and a new set of guidelines and terms and conditions have been developed and a new, more focused scheme is now in place. Almost 1,900 applications were received by the deadline of 12 February 1999 and these are being examined at present. Under the new programme, special priority will be given to proposals for facilities in disadvantaged areas in line with Government policy aimed at increasing participation in sport and recreation in these areas.

The international carding scheme, introduced in 1998, is geared towards helping Ireland's high performance players and athletes realise their potential to perform successfully at the highest international levels. The 1999 scheme incorporates a number of improvements and modifications to the scheme which operated last year. The benefits available under the scheme include the provision of direct financial support to meet necessary competition, training and living expenses and the provision of a range of non-financial supports in the form of sports science and medical support, a career counselling service and access to training facilities.

Last year 178 players and athletes qualified for support and received direct financial assistance of just under £1 million. I expect to be awarding at least the same amount this year. As 1999 is pre-Olympic year, the carding scheme will be the main source of support for many of our top sports people in their quest to achieve qualifying standards for the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney.

In line with another of our commitments in An Action Programme for the Millennium, the Government initiated a tender procedure for the design, construction, financing and management of a 50 metre pool. This tender competition attracted considerable interest from the private and public sectors and three tender proposals were submitted by the deadline of 27 November last. Two tender proposals were deemed to have met the criteria outlined in the invitation to tender documentation and proceeded to the evaluation and assessment phase of the project. The other tenderer has sought a High Court hearing on its disqualification from the process and that court has listed the matter for 12 May. I am confident the evaluation process will be completed quickly after that date and I will present a memorandum to Government on the issue. Soon afterwards I hope to make an announcement about the selection of the successful tender. Construction should be completed within 18 months or so, bringing to an end a long and tortuous saga stretching back over the past decade or more.

The programme for Government also signalled our interest in pursuing a joint venture with interested commercial and sporting organisations in terms of providing national and regional sports facilities. A steering committee has been set up which will oversee the undertaking of a feasibility study on the development of a world class stadium for the new century. This committee, which includes representatives of the main sporting bodies, has appointed a consultancy firm to complete the study by August. The committee will also welcome the input of all interested sporting bodies as it is the Government's clear intention that any development will be adaptable to as many uses as possible. In this case and that of the 50 metre pool project, I am happy to be able to come before the Seanad to report significant tangible progress on projects which have been sporting bug-bears for far too long.

As we approach the millennium, we are witness to dramatic changes in all aspects of society. Sport is no exception. It is more than ever a truly global phenomenon, increasingly influenced by commercial and broadcasting interests. Equally, however, sport remains a social activity which has immense cultural significance and tells us much about the dynamics of social change in our society. The challenges facing sport are now greater than ever. As Minister with responsibility for sport, my aim is to ensure that Irish sport, its organisations and structures, are strengthened and supported in the efforts to meet these challenges head on. I see this Bill and the establishment of the sports council as a major step in this process.

One of the most significant challenges facing sport is the needs to recapture the traditional spirit and values which were once its hallmark. Drug abuse is the scourge of today's sporting environment. A very important function of the new council will be to take such actions as it considers appropriate, including testing, to combat doping in sport. In this context I launched Ireland's first ever national sports anti-doping programme last year, which will operate under the auspices of the statutory Irish Sports Council. The Bill also provides for the establishment of an Irish Sports Council anti-doping committee to assist and advise the council in fulfilling its anti-doping function. The various procedures necessary to ensure the programme can become operational as soon as possible upon the Irish Sports Council becoming statutory are currently being undertaken. For example, tenders for the provision of sample collection services and laboratory analysis facilities have been received and are under consideration at present. The national sports anti-doping programme underlines the Government's commitment to creating a sporting environment that fosters the pursuit of excellence and fulfilment in sport by fair and ethical means.

The Bill will enable the council to support and assist sports right across the sporting spectrum, from the outstanding sports persons and teams who must be given every opportunity to develop and reach their potential to the ordinary person who wants to take part in sport for recreation and enjoyment purposes, regardless of age, sex or ability. It does this by providing for specific functions which have as their main aims the promotion of excellence in competitive sport and the encouragement of greater participation in recreational sport. These aims are interdependent. The more people participate the greater the chance of excellence emerging. The better the achievements of our top sports people, the more people will be inspired to emulate them. As I said earlier, I was pleased to accept some amendments which serve to reinforce the fact that the council will carry out its role across all sports, whether competitive or recreational.

A sports council has existed in various forms since 1971 on an ad hoc basis. It acted as an advisory body to the Minister and the Government on matters relating to sport. The current non-statutory Irish Sports Council was established in June 1996. It has a two-fold role to advise the Minister on all aspects of sport and to co-ordinate the resources and energies of the sports movement. I must acknowledge the excellent work carried out by the current council and its chairperson Mr. John Treacy. He is a man of the highest integrity who is immensely interested in the welfare and betterment of sports people in all areas of sport.

I will, for the benefit of the House, go through the various sections of the Bill, highlighting the intention behind their respective provisions. Sections 1 to 5 are standard provisions and set out the short title and the interpretation of key concepts. They also provide for the establishment of the council and appointment, by Ministerial order, of a day on which it shall be established.

Section 6 is one of the more important in the Bill and sets out the functions of the council as follows: to encourage the promotion, development and co-ordination of competitive sport and the achievement of excellence therein; to develop strategies for increasing participation in recreational sport and for co-ordinating their implementation; to facilitate standards of good conduct and fair play in competitive and recreational sport through the promulgation of guidelines and codes of practice; to take appropriate action to combat doping in sport; where appropriate, to initiate and encourage research on sport and, where appropriate, to facilitate research and disseminate information on sport. This section also provides that the Minister may confer, to take account of future policy developments, additional functions on the council by order laid before each House of the Oireachtas, subject to such order not being annulled by resolution of the Houses within 21 sitting days.

Sections 7 to 10 set out broad parameters within which the council may pursue the delivery of its statutory functions, giving it a range of powers to assist it in this task. Section 7 empowers the council to co-operate with, advise and give assistance, including financial assistance, to persons or groups on matters relating to its functions. It may also enter into contracts, including sponsorship agreements, and accept gifts. It can engage consultants and advisers subject to certain conditions and may charge for services rendered by it.

Section 8 requires the council to establish criteria, terms and conditions, which may differ for different classes of applicants and recipients, for any assistance it gives under section 7 to persons or groups. This section also enables the council to refuse or withhold such assistance and/or to demand a refund of financial assistance, if it considers that the established criteria, terms and conditions have not been met, or if information requested is not forthcoming. Those terms and conditions will include participation by national governing bodies and individual athletes in the national sports anti-doping programme.

Sections 9 and 10 require the council, in performing its functions, to have regard to Government policy and comply with general policy directives from me, and to respond to any requests from me for advice on any matter relating to its functions or for information regarding the performance of its functions.

Sections 11 and 19 set out the basic provisions that will govern the operation and running of the council. These sections provide also for the com position and appointment of the council, the circumstances under which a person may be disqualified or removed from membership of the council or a committee of the council, procedures for the holding of council meetings and for the filling of casual vacancies arising on the council.

Section 12 provides for the appointment by the Minister of a council consisting of a chairperson and ten ordinary members for a period of office not exceeding five years, and that such persons may not serve more than two consecutive terms. I have specifically set out to address the gender balance issue by providing that not fewer than three members of the council shall be women and not fewer than three shall be men. I shall also ensure that all members of the council have expertise relevant to the functions of the council.

Sections 17 deals with the council's power to appoint a chief executive while section 18 deals with the establishment and dissolution of committees, including a requirement to establish one dealing with anti-doping in sport, the chair of which will be a medically qualified person to be appointed directly by the Minister.

Sections 20 and 21 set out the arrangements for dealing with the disclosure of interests and the unauthorised disclosure of information by council, committee or staff members, consultants or advisers.

Sections 22 and 23 deal with staffing and related matters. The sections provide for the council to employ its own staff subject to certain conditions, including those conditions which will apply to civil servants who may transfer on establishment day to the council, and arrangements for the introduction of staff superannuation schemes.

Section 24 is a standard provision applying to agencies generally. It provides that Members of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann or the European Parliament will be disqualified from retaining membership of the council or of a committee of the council, or, in the case of council staff, that they shall stand seconded from employment by the council.

Sections 25 and 26 set out the arrangements for the council to report periodically to the Minister and the Oireachtas on its activities, plans and expenditure. Under these sections, the council is required specifically to submit, for the Minister's approval and presentation to the Oireachtas, three year strategy statements comprising its key objectives, outputs and related strategies for the following three year period, and a review of the efficiency and effectiveness of all programmes operated by the council. The council will also be required to submit to the Minister for presentation to the Oireachtas annual reports of its activities, including a progress report on the implementation of the strategy statement, and to keep specified accounts which are audited annually by the Comptroller and Auditor General and presented to each House of the Oireachtas.

Sections 27 and 28 provide for transitional arrangements regarding any legal proceedings relating to a function of the council which may be pending at establishment day and any rights and liabilities relating to such functions as at that date.

The last year or so has marked one of the most highly concentrated periods of development in the framework for delivery of support to Irish sport and to the organisations who have nurtured and guided its progress over the decades. I have no doubt that this legislation will maintain that momentum and constitute another momentous step in the evolution of Irish sport. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. D. Cregan

I welcome the Minister to the House. I support the Bill and I am pleased that sport has been given statutory recognition, which is long overdue. I agree with the Minister that sport is very important. It is as important to the national well-being as art and culture. At present, approximately 50 per cent of the population are under the age of 30 and five years ago 52 per cent were under the age of 25. Sport is important to these young people. The Minister was right to put a lot of time and effort into the preparation of the Bill, although he was criticised for doing so, because there were question marks over some organisations, particularly the Irish Swimming Association.

Section 6 relates to the functions of the council. We must ensure that people involved in sport throughout the country are informed about how the council will operate. The council must have some punch, so to speak, and be seen to be getting to grips not alone with the sporting organisations, but with local authorities and health authorities. This Minister referred to this in his speech.

There is a perception that sporting organisations such as the Gaelic Athletic Association and the FAI have done exceptionally well, and rightly so. Other organisations should also do well. Individual sports people and groups, such as mountain climbing organisations, do not get the same recognition and there is a danger that they may be left behind. I do not believe that the structure as set up will allow this to happen but it is imperative that every organisation and individual gets proper recognition.

The promotion of sport is very important given the dangers of alcohol and drugs and the changes that have taken place in Irish society in the past ten or 15 years. Unfortunately, young people died last weekend as a result of driving at high speed. We must, therefore, ensure there are other ways for young people to occupy themselves. Society's values nowadays are totally different from the past.

It is important to make facilities available to young people at secondary and primary level. In Sweden sporting academies are set up and the money received from these is used to help other organisations. We should be doing that with all organisations. The vast majority of people want to give more to the GAA and to soccer organisations. If they benefit in the long-term from big gates, something should come back from the sporting organisations.

Does the sports council have the sole authority to speak to sponsors directly?

Dr. McDaid

Yes.

Mr. D. Cregan

It will not have to come to the Minister about it?

Dr. McDaid

No.

Mr. D. Cregan

I welcome that. There is no reason why not. I do not want to see a situation where anything political is relevant to sport, under any circumstances. We want this council to be broad so that every consideration will be given to sports. Sponsorship money is exceptionally big and sponsors are doing very well out of sport because of television. We provide television coverage as does Sky TV, and one can see what is happening now.

I have said previously that the sports council should have the authority to promote Ireland internationally when our sportsmen and women are competing abroad. The Minister said that last year 178 players and athletes qualified for support and received direct financial assistance of just under £1 million. They will probably get more this year and they are entitled to it. However, let us not create a situation where they may be seen to be elitist groups. Nobody wants that. Every opportunity must be given to anybody who wants to become involved in sport.

A number of groups have sought grants this year and I know the amount the Minister is considering. What is the definition of disadvantaged areas? I represent an urban area and in the past few years enormous amounts of money have been put into Cork, particularly the north side of the city. That investment is now proving to have been well worthwhile, but the same sort of investment is long overdue for other areas.

The sports council should be able to recommend that proper facilities be made available to local authorities and left in their hands. I do not like the idea of particular groups getting all the facilities, while smaller groups receive none. The sports council should have the right to say that no moneys will be paid out if the facilities are not available to everybody.

There are green spaces all over the country which for many months of the year are not used by sporting organisations. Is that the right way of managing them? The system whereby local authorities own such facilities and provide them to different sporting groups works particularly well in the Dublin area. Under that system no individual sports club owns a facility, although it will be able to use it at weekends. Unfortunately, there are clubs that do not use their facilities all year round. For instance, if a club is beaten in the first round of the championship, the pitch is unused for eight months. That should not happen. How often is Croke Park used?

Why should we not build new and bigger stadiums for multi-sport use? In mid-November I have seen sports being played on all-weather pitches. We should not be afraid to consider that also, although I am not saying we should consider it for one particular area. Dublin is the most densely populated area in the country but we must be careful not to centralise everything. I am not biased in favour of Cork, although I am not saying that such a facility should not be located in Cork. Why not? However, we should not be afraid to consider building a multi-use stadium in the centre of the country so everybody can have access to it. People can get the general impression that everything is in Dublin. I am not saying it should not be in Dublin, but it is important not to centralise everything that is relevant to sport in this city. The 100th anniversary celebration of the GAA which was held in Thurles and was an exceptionally good event. There is no reason why we could not situate a stadium in Athlone which is in the centre of the country.

The 50 metre pool is a very important and emotive issue. I am a member of a local authority which has five swimming pools that cost a fortune to run. The authority loses a large amount of money on them. The impression is that many people swim but they do not. As a founder member of the estimates committee on Cork Corporation I can speak with authority on this matter. The two pools we are directly involved in each cost in the region of £400,000 per year. That represents £8,000 per week, £1,200 per day or £150 an hour. Facilities are available to people at very little cost but they are just not using them. It is imperative that more people should have such facilities, but swimming pools should be part of multi-use stadiums where other activities can take place also. People would then be more interested in using them.

The Minister is in the advanced stages of considering a 50 metre pool and there is no reason why it should not be considered as a joint venture. If we involve the private sector it will work better. I am not knocking local authorities, but there is a general impression that public pools are not as good as private ones. However, the Churchfield pool on the north side of Cork city is one of the finest in the country. There is no question about that. The pool's filter system is top class and no private pools have such clean water. One could find a pearl at the bottom of the Churchfield pool, but one could not do so in a private pool. Unfortunately, people have the opposite impression and we have to put up with that.

Both the public and private sectors are being considered as regards the proposed new multi-use stadium and there is no reason we should not tie that in with the 50 metre pool. The Minister might reply to that point.

The Minister should also consider joint ventures at school level. For example, the pool at the institute of technology at Bishopstown in Cork is working exceptionally well and is very busy. I cannot understand why another pool, which is only a mile away, is used by only 200 people each day.

I welcome the Minister's provision that not fewer than three members of the council shall be women and not fewer than three shall be men. That is very important. Sponsorship is big business and it is imperative that we be seen to choose the right type of sponsor. We do not want to discriminate against sponsors that have been good to sports over many years, just because they may be selling something that is not relevant to sport. Sporting organisations might not consider Murphy's because it sells alcohol. This would be most unfair as Murphy's has been very good to small local groups, as have other breweries. It is important not to give opportunities only to certain groups. This is big business and there should be no discrimination.

I welcome the Bill. I will have some amendments on Committee Stage, but this Bill will enlighten and encourage many people. It is long overdue and I congratulate the Minister.

Dr. McDaid

My only reservation relates to sponsorship from the tobacco industry.

Mr. D. Cregan

I agree, though I smoke cigars.

Mr. Moylan

I welcome this important Bill and look forward to a more detailed discussion of its provisions later. I pay tribute to the thousands of people who participate voluntarily, either as players or coaches, in a large range of sporting activities out of a sense of enjoyment. The programme for Government contained a commitment to set up a sports council on a statutory basis and I congratulate the Minister on his progress in this matter. We must proceed to set up this body quickly.

That commitment recognised the work done by organisations such as Cospóir and by other bodies at local level, such as vocational education committees and other statutory organisations. The Government's commitment to sport has been clear from its decision to create a full sports Ministry. The Taoiseach's selection of Deputy McDaid as the Minister to head that Department was a very wise choice and I congratulate the Minister on his work to date. There have been many difficulties in certain sporting organisations and I compliment the Minister on the efficient way in which he has dealt with these problems.

The value and importance of sport and leisure activities to the development of personal and social skills as well as physical and mental well being is enormous. It is important that the Government has decided to recognise the shortcomings in the development of sporting policies in a structured way. The European Sports Charter defined sport as encompassing all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aims at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels. These are still worthy of attention and support because they assist the expression and improvement of mental well being and the formation of social relationships. If we are to develop a meaningful sports policy, we must develop one to cater for all ages and abilities in the whole community.

The Minister mentioned the role sport plays in keeping people out of crime and that must be a huge factor in promoting sport. I compliment the large number of people who are involved in sport in a voluntary capacity. Sometimes parents treat teachers and coaches in sporting organisations as bearing all the responsibility, but there is a huge onus on parents to get more involved in the promotion of sport. We should emphasise this far more, as in my experience parents can treat teachers and coaches involved in sport as childminders. Parents should become involved in sports to ensure children are properly cared for. It can also be enjoyable for parents.

We recognise the excellent work done by organisations such as the GAA, with which I am particularly familiar. The GAA caters for many thousands of young people who participate in hurling, football, camogie and handball, and great credit is due to it. Soccer has experienced huge development in the last decade and caters for thousands of young people. When these young people get older they may become more competitive, but it is important that all organisations – in rugby, soccer or gaelic games – take on young people and give them basic training. Those young people will then pursue the sport they are best suited for.

We must recognise the facilities that many of these sporting bodies provide. The Minister mentioned the huge number of applications for funding his Department received. We should aim for a regional balance of funding. I know there are huge problems in our urban areas, but we must also look at rural areas, where there are organisations doing excellent work. The Minister's last allocation of funds looked after some of these bodies and we look forward to an early decision on further funding.

Much sporting activity takes place in community halls. The Department and the sports council should knock heads together to ensure that if funding is provided for a community hall it is located near a second level school to enable that school to make use of it. The sporting organisations in that particular town or village can then use the hall, particularly in the winter when they cannot use their own facilities. Such halls should be maintained properly for the use of all organisations.

Some club members have set ideas and may wish to see development only in their organisation. The State cannot afford to allow large amounts of money to be spent by people who have a vested interest in a single organisation. The Minister has made it clear that he wishes to ensure that the largest possible number of organ isations and participants avail of facilities which receive State funding.

Many of our schools have good sports halls which could be used by sports clubs. The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation should meet the Minister for Education and Science to ensure that such facilities are made available for sporting organisations and upgraded if necessary. I am aware of many sporting facilities which are open only during school hours. That arrangement is not satisfactory and must be changed. I welcome action being made in that regard.

I welcome the provision of funding for a new 50 metre swimming pool and for many existing 25 metre pools. Many top class swimmers will begin their careers in smaller pools in their own towns and communities. Senator Dino Cregan spoke of the importance of providing swimming facilities in midland towns. I would welcome the provision of such facilities in the midlands.

The development of the 50 metre pool has been delayed because of a court case. I hope this difficulty will be overcome and that tenders will soon be invited. It is important that an Olympic size swimming pool is provided so that our top class swimmers can remain in Ireland while they train for major international competitions. We must proceed with this project as soon as possible. The Minister has said that he intends the development to be adaptable to as many uses as possible. I welcome that.

The Minister has mentioned the problem of the use of drugs in sport. I welcome the establishment of a body for drug testing in sport. All sports men and women should participate on an equal basis without the use of performance enhancing drugs. Until we have a proper testing mechanism it will be possible to point an accusing finger at some of our better performers, the vast majority of whom achieve their performances through hard work and dedication and often at great financial cost. I compliment the Minister on the launch of the first national programme to counteract the use of drugs in sport. With all sports people, I welcome this programme. It is important that drug testing is carried out in a proper centre so that the validity of tests cannot be questioned.

I acknowledge the work of Mr. John Treacy and the existing Irish Sports Council and I am pleased the Minister has recognised their work. I am glad that the Bill stipulates that at least three members of the new council must be women. It may be necessary to amend the Bill at a later stage and if, when enacted, some aspects of the legislation are found to be unsatisfactory we should not be afraid to make further amendments, I am confident that this will happen if the Minister continues to have responsibility for this area.

Senator Dino Cregan commented on the connection between alcohol and sport. I do not object to alcoholic drinks companies sponsoring sport, indeed I welcome it. However, I do not agree with those who say that it is impossible to celebrate without alcohol.

It is disappointing to see huge housing estates being built with no sports or leisure facilities. Green areas in the vicinity of housing estates should be preserved so that young people can participate in some type of field sport. We will have fewer problems on our streets if young people are encouraged to take part in sport.

I compliment the Minister on this excellent Bill and wish him well.

Mr. Cosgrave

I welcome the Minister and wish him well in his work. Like me he is a sports addict and it is good that the Minister with responsibility for sport has an interest in many and varied sports. I also compliment the former Minister of State, Deputy Allen, who pioneered much of the Minister's work.

I agree with much of what the two previous speakers have said and I wish, merely to re-emphasise some of the points they made. Sport has become an integral part of our society. More and more people participate in a growing number of events. It is important, therefore, that the State provide support, whether it be for the major organisations or the small club in the city or country with primitive facilities. My eldest son plays Gaelic football and soccer. I am amazed at the number of young people and parents who are involved each weekend, particularly in Dublin. While there are clubs which are well organised and have a large membership and good facilities, there are, as Senator Moylan said, clubs where players still have to change at the side of the road. This is not good enough. A sum of £15,000 to £20,000 may make all the difference in providing a clubhouse. In allocating millions to organisations such as the GAA for the development of Croke Park sight should not be lost of the need to provide basic facilities locally.

Until more stadiums are built, pressure should be brought to bear to have stadiums such as Croke Park put to greater use. In this context, the stadium planned for the Phoenix Park had immense potential. The soccer authorities are considering developing their own stadium. I hope the Government will not be found wanting.

Tickets for big GAA, rugby and soccer matches are becoming more expensive and can cost anything up to £30. This makes it costly to bring one's spouse and children. While there is a need for corporate hospitality on all-Ireland final day at Croke Park and at big European and World Cup matches at Lansdowne Road, sight should not be lost of the efforts of those involved locally week in, week out, including parents and supporters who may never get to the venues mentioned.

What timeframe does the Minister have in mind in selecting the members of the council? There is a need to select people who are practical. John Treacy has been a role model.

Facilities at grounds throughout the country leave much to be desired. At some venues it can be difficult to get a cup of tea or coffee. The con sumer has to be looked after. While there was a successful festival at Punchestown last week, at some racetracks there is a general sloppiness when it comes to food and drink. This does not help to attract punters.

Major events, such as the Ryder Cup and Tour de France, which highlight the beauty of the country have enormous potential to attract tourists. They are twice as good as Saatchi and Saatchi promotions and at lower cost to the Government.

I wish the Minister well. He is deeply committed to the development of sport. To avoid problems of deprivation, drugs and crime, it is important that a minimum amount of open space is retained in housing developments where young people can play football, tennis and other racket sports. Parents should become more involved. It has been said that some use the football match at the weekend as a babyminding service. I support the Bill.

Ms Ormonde

I congratulate the Minister on his vision in placing the Irish Sports Council on a statutory basis. I also compliment the Taoiseach who had the vision to create a new Department and give the Minister the role of promoting and developing sports and recreational activities. This is a worthwhile concept with which we all agree. Sport affects all aspects of our lives. We can all recall discussions about sport at the dinner table from an early age. It has intrinsic value. I am delighted a new council is being established which will deal with the future of sport and how best we can integrate it into everybody's lives. The Minister spoke at length and I compliment him on all aspects of his speech.

I am disappointed the Labour Party, which I thought would be very interested in the council and in how best we can prevent the ills of society, is not here to support the establishment of this council. It is only Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil who are batting for this council in the Seanad. I am delighted we have the support of Fine Gael Members whose views I have listened to and which are very much in line with my thinking.

The Minister is doing much work in relation to financial support and An Action Programme for the Millennium. We should not, however, think about pouring good money after bad. We must recognise that there are white elephants in our communities which were set up at a time when sport played a greater role but no longer does so because the young people have grown up and the new people in these urban areas are not involved in sport for whatever reason. We do not have an integrated approach whereby parents get involved at an early age and there is a sporting ethos in our schools. If we do not start at an early age, children will have no interest in sport by the time they reach 14 or 15 years of age.

I am a little disappointed with the Department of Education and Science. We have become so paranoid about the points system that sport is no longer part of our education system by junior cer tificate level. The points system is taking over and parents have become preoccupied with their children getting the required points. Sport is not part of that programme. It is important that the points system is taken into account in our integrated approach.

Sport should be a subject for which a student may be awarded points. If a student does well in PE, that performance should be recognised, particularly for those pursuing a career in sport. There are many such options available today, for example, coaching. Sports should be taken into account at leaving certificate level in our integrated approach.

The Department of Education and Science should ensure that PE teachers do not finish every work day at 4 p.m. and that their timetable is arranged to enable them to work from 12 p.m. to 7 p.m. one day or from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. another day. We should put in place a system to facilitate this arrangement. Many young people receive guidance in school until 3 p.m. but after that time, they receive none. Once they leave the school, they move into a different environment which does not have a sporting ethos.

It is important there are links between schools and the community. The Minister said there will be an integrated plan involving local authorities, vocational education committees and schools. It would be good if we could involve the local authority, but I often hear local authority members and the parks superintendent talking about the preservation of flora and fauna, which is a nice passive recreation. However, I would much prefer to deal with the provision of playing pitches so that young people are not idle after 4 o'clock in the afternoon. I would like playing pitches to be provided and parents to be involved at an early stage so that a sporting ethos and a spirit of achievement, leadership, commitment and loyalty are developed. Sport also develops the character.

We must adopt a holistic approach which will deal with the points system, create a balanced education system and develop young people. Sport develops confidence, self-esteem, well-being and team spirit, benefits one's health and education and also prevents drug taking. We hear of young people hanging around open spaces after 4 p.m. and about the anti-social behaviour we are trying to curb. This council will have an opportunity to link up with our schools to see how best we can devise measures to deal with the anti-social behaviour which arises when children have nothing else to do. As the saying goes, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, or Mary a dull girl.

I welcome any opportunity to bring everyone together, which this Bill gives us. We must have good people on this council, and the Minister mentioned gender balance. I debated this issue last week when we dealt with membership of the proposed national qualifications authority. I welcome women and men working together as long as they know what they are doing. I do not want tokenism in any walk of life. I want to make sure those who become members of the council know what they are doing and know how to deal with other organisations and communities to maximise participation in sport and leisure activities of whatever type.

Not everybody is active in sport. I do not say everybody should play football, hurling or soccer, because they may not be interested in them. I would like to think people would be interested in a passive recreation or an active sport. It is important to get the right people to link up with each other. It is also important to get the right people in the education system and local authorities to deal with this council, those who will know how best to implement sports programmes.

I welcome the proposal for a 50 metre pool, which will also be welcomed by all young people. With regard to the research on a national stadium, at least the Minister is not simply saying "yes" but is thinking about how best it can reflect Ireland. We must ensure equality and that every young boy and girl gets the most out of their education. We must integrate this new council with the Departments of Education and Science, the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We tried to do this before and we have many white elephants in our community which are not being used for the purposes for which they were set up. Once the young people in a community grow up, many organisations are no longer needed and this leaves other young people with nothing to do.

This Bill is worthwhile; it provides a vision for the future and I compliment the Minister. Its implementation is important in terms of how it works. I have no doubt the Minister will note the points I have made as it is worth getting it right this time.

Mr. Quinn

I welcome the Bill and I also welcome the Minister, whose efforts in all aspects of sport have been evident in recent years. My aim is to improve the Bill in one significant way. I believe that in its current form it is seriously unbalanced as it puts too much emphasis on competitive and not enough on recreational sport. This is a serious flaw but one which can easily be put right by the Minister and I hope he will see his way to do so. I am talking about balance – I am not seeking to put recreational sport ahead of competitive sport. I merely wish to give recreational sport its proper due, something it rarely gets and is unlikely to get in future if the Bill passes in its current form.

I am an enthusiastic supporter of competitive sport, both in terms of spectating and participating. I have not had the pleasure of taking money from the Minister on the golf course where I am not known to take prisoners. Competition in sport, which we should enthusiastically support, is fine and I am delighted it is now being given its proper place. However, the danger is that recreational sport will lose out if we focus our attention predominantly on competitive sport, some thing we run the risk of in terms of the new sports council.

On reading the Bill I was very struck by the subordinate role given to recreational sport. Whenever the two are mentioned together, competitive sport always comes first with recreational sport being almost an afterthought. In many sections only competitive sport is mentioned. I have a slight suspicion that the references to recreational sport have been included almost as an afterthought or a sop. Another problem arises in terms of the likely composition of the board of the new council. It is customary in such cases to rely heavily on people who have excelled and been very successful in competitive sport and those who have been involved in the administration of competitive sport. I am putting down a marker in this regard as it is easy to create in this way a mind set in the organisation that competitive sport is what it is all about and that recreational sport is a somewhat less important activity. Certainly it is one which is rarely accorded the priority it deserves.

We are establishing the Irish Sports Council in the context of the State's grievous neglect of all sport since its foundation. This is why I welcome the Bill and the efforts of the Minister. Recreational and competitive sport have been served scandalously over the history of the State. Perhaps this was traditional in other states. I understand why using taxpayers' money to fund sport was not regarded as a priority but rather as a nice thing to do. In this context, the fact that some of our sports people have excelled at international level is nothing short of a miracle. We have done very well and should respect all the more the achievement of those who have excelled, given the lack of funding. We do not have proper facilities for competitive training at the highest level in many sports and have only begun in a very tentative way to address the special needs of elite sports people and the high achievers who show promise of reaching the very top. These are real problems and it will be very costly to realise the necessary agenda. However, in attacking that agenda we must not fall into the trap of thinking that competitive sport is the only thing that matters. If we think like this we will neglect a very large part of the immense benefits that sport can bring to the country. Competitive sport, no matter how we broaden participation in it, will always be a minority activity. Top level sport, particularly at international level, can never be the province of more than a tiny number.

Recreational sport which, can involve everybody, complements competitive sport. As a nation we tend to forget the benefits of sport for all. Five years ago I became deeply involved in the leaving certificate applied programme and was frankly shocked by the extent to which physical education has almost been squeezed out of secondary schools. Our headlong rush for points has led to a situation where too often sport and recreation are considered frills which can be dis pensed with. The result is that even in schools which take sport seriously the focus is only on those who will do well in competitive sport while the rest are allowed or even encouraged to think sport is not for them. Half of our secondary schools do not have physical education teachers. We all know how poor sports facilities and equipment are in many primary and secondary schools. Members also know schools where those who do not get on to the first team are not given attention and are told not to take an interest.

I am old fashioned enough to think that physical and intellectual well-being are closely linked and that a proper education should have a physical aspect in addition to an academic aspect. The old maxim is that a healthy mind is in a health body. I have a particular reason for believing in the importance of this maxim. In my experience it is vital for young people to have an early experience of sport and success. It does not really matter what the success is achieved in as success in anything creates self-confidence which invariably leads to success in other activities, something I learned very early by looking at those not doing well in school who were told to sit at the back of the class, that they were failures. They lacked confidence and were most likely going to fail and become drop outs who would not succeed in life. It was then found that if they found something they were good at – it did not have to be competitive – they gained the admiration of their colleagues and peers and confidence in themselves. One could see such people blossom and grow and suddenly gain confidence in so many other areas. When young people discover they can be good at something they quickly start to believe in their ability to be good at a range of other things. Self-belief is an important part of performance, not just in school but in every aspect of life. I see the very same traits in young people going to work. Sport offers young people an opportunity to experience success and is valuable for that and many other reasons.

I am not necessarily talking about competitive success in sport. Success can be a matter of achievement in an activity where the only competitor is yourself, when one is competing to do better than before. Also relevant in this context are activities where success results from co-operation rather than competition, for example, hill walking or something which is not regarded as competitive but gives one a chance to participate in a team and help others.

The key thing is that the opportunity for success should be open to all, something which is currently not the case. On a lifetime basis only recreational sport can reach out to everybody. As long as we fail to properly develop recreational sport, we will undermine people's physical and mental well-being. Competitive and recreational sport has an important role to play in building strong and effective communities, something which is vital if we are to make a fundamental impact on the problem of social exclusion. This is one of the reasons we support the Minister's efforts as it should be one of the Bill's objectives. In this context only recreational sport can reach out to all as competitive sport is limited to the very best. We must involve everybody, not just spectators, if we are to gain the full benefit of sport in a community context.

In this Bill we need to send a signal to the members of the first Irish Sports Council and their successors that recreational sport is not an afterthought or an also ran but something which is of equal importance with competitive sport. There should be a dead heat in the legislation between the two.

Mr. Costello

It is competitive on that basis.

Mr. Quinn

The effort and resources should not be devoted solely to competition with the needs of recreation always coming second. This signal can be sent by making a number of key amendments on Committee Stage. I propose that the order be reversed where recreational and competitive sport are mentioned in the Bill. If recreational sport is mentioned second, it will always come second. However, if competitive sport is mentioned second, there is no danger it will be neglected by any future sports council. It should also be possible to include a subsection requiring the Minister, when appointing members of the sports council, to have regard to the experience and background of respective members with a view to achieving a balance of interests between recreational and competitive sport in the composition of the council. There is nothing rigid and no quotas, just a reminder that the two sides of the coin must be reflected in the composition of the sports council.

The Bill is a charter for the future of sport and I welcome it. I welcome the enthusiasm the Minister has shown in the words he used. I am convinced that anything we manage to do will strengthen the Bill. Let us make it a charter worthy of the name by enabling it to bring the benefits of sport to the widest possible number of people and to use it in the service of some of our important national aims. I have touched on some of them. Sport can help to alleviate the problems of social exclusion and can help in community building. It can also help some of those youngsters who might otherwise regard themselves as failures – help them see what they can achieve and give them a sense that if they can do those things they can do many others. I welcome the Bill and the Minister's enthusiasm for it. I wish it well.

Mr. Gibbons

I welcome the Minister. It is good that we now have a Minister with responsibility for sport. It is an area which has been neglected in the past and I am pleased that position was reversed by the Taoiseach two years ago by appointing the Minister to this portfolio.

I welcome the Bill. It is a major step in the development of sport. The different sports have for too long been disjointed in their approach to co-operation. There is too much conflict between disciplines. As Senator Quinn said, sport should be about the development of the human being. It is not that important if a person is a professional or a poor amateur. It is what he or she gains from sport which is important. In so far as we can afford to, we should support top athletes, regardless of the discipline in which they are involved or the targets they set themselves. They must be given what can be afforded. The steps taken in the Bill will go a long way towards that.

It is important that as much emphasis as possible be placed on and as much funding as possible be given to young people involved in sport. The benefits which will accrue are enormous, if they are to be judged on a purely economic basis. It will always be good for youngsters to be involved in sport, regardless of the discipline. Senator Quinn said that being involved in sport gives people confidence, regardless of what they wish to achieve from it. There are people at school who will not achieve as well as others academically, but they may have talents in sport. It may not be in its playing; it could be in administration, coaching or whatever. A system must be in place to give these people the opportunity to show their talents.

I attended a cup final soccer match on Monday in Carlow in which one of my sons played – another should have been playing but he was on the sidelines with a broken leg. It was an enjoyable match, a wonderful day and a big occasion for all the people and the two clubs involved. A large crowd attended. However, there was no pitch on which to play the match. This is where we need to get our act together. There are many soccer clubs in Carlow, but with the exception of one, they must play their games on borrowed pitches. I would like to see more co-operation between local authorities and the clubs to provide proper facilities over time so that youngsters playing the sport feel, as did I when I played, the personal achievement of reaching a county final and playing in Nolan Park or even a Leinster final in Croke Park. It is something to which everyone aspires. We must try as much as possible to make funding available to provide these facilities.

There are many other disciplines which need facilities. It is incumbent on the organisations running the different codes to become involved in and support the Minister's initiative. Last week the all-Ireland 11-a-side hurling competition was held in Carlow in which 40 teams took part. One can imagine the organisational headache for Carlow Town Hurling Club, the club holding the event. The event ran smoothly after a few hiccups at the start. To run such events, clubs need support from GAA headquarters to remove some of the organisational headaches. It is important that this co-operation is given willingly. It may be in the form of financial or organisational support, but it is important that it is given. I was delighted that hurling was played last Saturday on Carlow Rugby Club's pitch, one of the oldest in the country, which the club made available to the GAA for the 11-a-side. Ten pitches were required to run the event. That is the type of co-operation which generates goodwill among sports people and parents involved in ferrying children to games.

We need to focus on youngsters in the development of sport. There will be no sports people in the future unless we cater for young people. As a parent, it gives me great pleasure to live in a town where my children have the opportunity to be involved in many different sports. The fact children can do so means the possibility of their becoming involved in unsavoury activities is less likely. They will grow up to be healthy adults. I appeal to the Minister to focus as much as possible on youth.

I also ask the Minister to provide facilities for soccer, not just in Carlow but in many other places so that we can move beyond the days when I, and I am sure Senator Moylan, togged out in ditches and perhaps had our rear ends stung before matches. While we are, thankfully, moving away from that we need more facilities in the form of proper pitches.

Mr. Costello

I welcome this legislation. It is desirable to put the Irish Sports Council on a statutory basis and to bring sport further into the limelight by giving it formal recognition in terms of our national responsibilities. I welcome the report of the national sports strategy group which was concerned with targeting sporting change in Ireland from 1997 to 2006 and beyond. We need to look at the statutory underpinning of policy development and to consider policy in the short and long-term.

These developments are especially welcome in view of the pall in recent months over what we regarded as our finest sporting achievement in swimming, both at home and abroad. An Irish Olympic swimmer is in the news at present and there have been horrendous abuses of young people involved in swimming. On the positive side, matters related to the doping issue have to some extent been addressed and consideration has been given to the management of competitive and recreational sport.

I agree with Senator Quinn's criticism of the legislation. While I do not believe the Minister is at fault intentionally, the Bill appears to be lopsided in that undue recognition is given to the importance of competitive, professional sport as distinct from recreational and amateur sport. The vast majority of people – at least 95 per cent – are involved in sport on grounds of recreation and health and that should be recognised.

While there are elements of competition, for example, there is competition in the GAA, although it is an amateur organisation, professional sports are at the cutting edge of competition. In view of this there is a need to make clear distinctions. One approach is through the recreational side and the schools. Young people become involved in sport because they are bundles of energy and it is natural for them to do so and also because of their fascination with sporting heroes. Some of them take a recreational route while others take the competitive route. We should, therefore, deal with the matter holistically rather than create a dichotomy where competitive sport is defined in terms of excellence as opposed to recreational sport, which is given a secondary position.

Section 6(1) outlines the functions of the Irish Sports Council. Only one element, in section 6(1)(b), gives full attention to recreational sport.

Dr. McDaid

What about section 6(1)(c)?

Mr. Costello

All the others deal with competitive sport, except for paragraphs (e) and (f) which provide that the council may, where appropriate, initiate, encourage and facilitate research and disseminate information concerning recreational sport. Why should there not be research into recreational sport in addition to competitive sport? There appears to be an imbalance in the functions of the council in that competitive sport and achievements of excellence, as defined in section 6(1)(a), are to be promoted, developed and co-ordinated while other activities are secondary. We should look at this on Committee Stage and perhaps amend the Bill to give better recognition to recreational sport. This could entail covering both areas under separate sections or providing for both together.

The old Latin adage mens sana in corpore sano, a healthy mind in a healthy body, was the basis of education for many centuries and sport was a major element in constituting the balance between mental development, the development of the intelligence, and a healthy and fit body. Most schools have inadequate sporting facilities. There appears to be no mention of them in the Bill and that, in itself, is inadequate. A function of the council should be to promote sport in schools because nowhere else provides such a focus on sport. This is especially the case at second and third level education where people become involved in competitive sport.

Despite this, a very small number of schools have sports halls, a limited number have PE teachers and very few have coaching staff. Facilities, resources and personnel are totally inadequate. Any surveys on sport among the young in Ireland show that there is less participation and fewer facilities than virtually any other European country. Given this, it amazes me that we do so well on an international basis.

We need to look at the way schools can offer community based sporting facilities. Is there any reason existing sports halls in schools could not be open in the evenings and at weekends? Very few of them are. Is there any reason why, rather than having smaller facilities within schools, larger ones could not be located adjacent to them? This needs to be looked at to ensure that schools become community centres for recreational and sporting facilities. It would be much cheaper to avail of existing facilities rather than build new ones. Every schoolchild should have access to them. If the Irish Sports Council is to cover every county and age group this issue must be addressed.

There is a great emphasis on sports for all, including the elderly. People are living longer and retiring earlier. They have more disposable income and they are anxious to engage in sport and should be encouraged to do so. Whereas our parents' generation might not have participated in any form of sport after retirement, now it is commonplace. The first piece of advice given to anybody who is retiring is get involved in sport, golf, bowling, etc. Neither the old nor the young are being catered for in terms of where and how facilities might be provided. I know we are speaking about the council in broad brush strokes in terms of promotion, development and co-ordination, but we must see where the focus should be. I could not let legislation like this pass without mentioning the schools and the elderly, which should be included. That needs to be addressed.

I am delighted to see that the youth facilities and services fund for young people at risk of £20 million, and the extra £10 million which was made available, is being distributed. That will be helpful in providing facilities in disadvantaged areas. I applaud the Minister and the Government for that, but of course it is long overdue. It is an indication of the neglect of the most disadvantaged areas that they have the least number of facilities. We all know how valuable sports facilities are to young people who otherwise would be hanging around the streets getting involved in vandalism and crime or going to the pub and using drugs. This is a key area which must be expanded and developed. The community-based school facility is a desirable model which could be looked at, particularly in disadvantaged areas. No disadvantaged area should be without such a facility which should be large, flexible and broad enough to cater for a wide variety of sporting activities for the people in the area.

I am glad the Minister has introduced gender balance to the council. This is the first legislation since the establishment of the Government to specify that there must be three members of each gender on the ten member body. I applaud the Minister for including that provision. We have battled for its inclusion in virtually every other Bill but I am glad he took the initiative in this case.

I am not happy that Members of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament are excluded once more from an important area of public life. I do not see what is wrong with having a Member of the Oireachtas on such a body. These days virtually every piece of legislation reduces the number of activities in which Members of the Oireachtas may get involved. They are being treated like criminals, debtors and other undesirable members of the public. I do not know if there is a reason for it. We should rethink that provision.

A section deals with sponsorship and how it will operate. Section 7(2)(c) which refers to the establishment of trust funds to encourage sponsorship for competitive sport or recreational sport should be expanded to achieve a more pragmatic and specific involvement of the corporate sector in the life of the community. There is no better way of doing it than through sport. We should do what has been done in many other countries, that is invite companies to give a percentage of their profits, no matter how small, to the community in which they are located and from which they derive their profits. That is done through the legislative process in other countries. Companies voluntarily agree to become members of this corporate sporting/recreational strategy and offer a certain percentage of their profits to it. They have a say in the management of the structure which would deploy that funding. It is important to introduce that sector in a structured way. If it is not introduced in that way, we will continue to run sporting activities on a hand to mouth basis and the local pub will sponsor the local soccer club, which will operate on a shoe-string. Sport needs to be given a better boost than that.

I welcome this worthwhile legislation. It is nice to see the sports council established on a statutory basis. I look forward to hearing the Minister address my questions regarding a greater emphasis on schools as a focus for sporting activities and on achieving a greater balance between the recreational and competitive sides of sport.

Mr. R. Kiely

I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on bringing forward this Bill which is most important for Irish sport. The purpose of the Bill is to establish the first statutory sports body to be known as the Irish Sports Council or Comhairle Spóirt na hÉireann to promote and encourage the development of sport. This was recommended by a report published by the National Sports Strategy Group entitled Targeting Sporting Change in Ireland: Sport in Ireland 1997-2006 and beyond. We must compliment that body and especially its chairman, Mr. John Treacy, who brought great honour to Ireland as an athlete. It will be a red letter day for sport in Ireland when this Bill is enacted.

Sport is important to the well-being and health of the youth. It is important that there should be facilities for young people to ensure that they can get involved in sports and have an active life. These facilities would keep them away from harmful activities, such as drug-related crime which is common.

The programme for Government set out for the first time that there would be a Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. I congratulate Deputy McDaid, the first Minister for sport, and wish him every success.

Urban area are of concern to me. As a member of the GAA, I am involved in discussions on how to create and develop facilities in densely populated urban areas, such as Limerick city. Where there are large housing schemes, they should be an obligation to provide a number of acres of recreational land and especially sports facilities to cater for people on a pro rata basis and to ensure that there are enough green belts. There are few GAA grounds in Limerick, probably because one needs more acreage for Gaelic football or hurling than for soccer or other games. As these are our national sports, this situation must be addressed. We should have sufficient playing and recreational facilities, particularly in the cities, to cater for young people.

National lottery funding is of great assistance in allowing sports clubs to develop their facilities. In conjunction with FÁS schemes, it has allowed clubs to provide first class facilities to cater for the recreational needs of young and old alike.

We must recognise the work carried out by voluntary sports associations and the people who work in them. Volunteers, whether parents or others, transport young people to and from games and encourage them to practice on a daily basis. Their commitment and interest in sport motivates them to do that. We have had occasional sporting scandals in this country where a small number of people have damaged the reputation of sport but the vast majority of volunteers carry out tremendous work and are the lifeblood of sport. While we have such committed people, sport is in safe hands. I am sure the sports council will assist and encourage volunteers. I would like to see sport continuing to be administered with the assistance of voluntary organisations, with the sports council overseeing matters to ensure procedures are in accordance with the law.

The Department has outlined a vision for sport in the future, particularly in regard to the international market. The more international events we can attract to this country, the better, in view of the spin-off effects they have for our economy. Events such as the Tour de France have brought new spirit and life into the country. The race took place in the east and south of Ireland and people travelled long distances to glimpse the passing cyclists. We also hope to host the Ryder Cup in the future. These events are beneficial to tourism and do much to improve the image of Ireland abroad. Tourism, sport and recreation converge in this area.

Sport is first and foremost about fun with a gradual movement towards competitive and elite sports. In the past, sport was far more competitive at club level than it is now. It is regrettable that there is not a greater degree of competitiveness at that level.

Many children in disadvantaged areas hang around outside community centres rather than going inside. What has gone wrong? In the past, many sports stars did not have access to third level education. Recently a young Irish man, who started out riding ponies in the Dublin suburbs, won his first race in England. He now has a very bright future as a jockey. We must ensure that children who do not like school have other outlets. If the school curriculum is of no interest to them, an alternative system should be established. If they had nothing but football coaching all day, it might at least make men or women out of them and possibly offer them a career option.

The lack of physical education in schools is an issue of concern to me. There are in the region of 750 physical education teachers at second level who are obliged to give 30 minutes physical education instruction to their pupils. However, there are no physical education teachers at primary level. One depends on individual teachers to encourage students to have an interest in sport. Sports days are held annually but, in spite of people's best intentions, they do not work. I hope the new council will consider this matter urgently. School facilities must be considered in conjunction with community facilities to ensure a proper network of facilities is developed throughout the country.

I am delighted tenders have been invited for the provision of a 50 metre pool, an issue which has been ongoing for years. Numerous reports have been prepared in regard to this project and I congratulate the Minister and his Department for finally taking action. I look forward to the availability of the pool and of a proper national scheme.

One of the stated powers and functions of the Bill is to take appropriate action to combat doping in sport. That is very important. Some sports competitions seem to take place more in the laboratories than on the track. I wish the council well in its efforts to eliminate illicit practices such as doping.

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I thank Senators for their participation in the debate and I will attempt to respond to some of the issues raised. Senator Moylan raised a point about the definition of sport. I am sure none of us wants to move away from the European definition of sport. We do not want to dilute sport.

There seems to be some problem with regard to competitive and recreational sport. I want to assure Senators that I am not here to tell them I know everything about sport; that is why I am accompanied by my civil servants. The points raised are brought back to the Department and, if relevant, are incorporated into the Bill. Some Senators may be unaware that I introduced three amendments in the Dáil on recreational sports to ensure recreational and competitive sports would operate on an equal footing. I defined recreational sport and outlined specific functions for the council targeted at recreational sport. If some of the points raised by Senators Quinn and Costello and others have not been adequately addressed, I am prepared to consider further amendments in view of the large degree of co-operation I have received in both Houses.

Some Senators referred to the circumstances which prevail in our schools. I agree with Members when they say we have allowed PE to fall to the bottom of the ladder. PE used to be a compulsory part of the curriculum but unfortunately that is no longer the case and I am sorry to see that. I would like physical education to be emphasised and my colleague, Deputy Martin, has made moves in that area.

I remind Senators that a baby retains more knowledge in the first year of life than over the next 50 years. A child learns and retains most in the first five or six years. For example, if a child touches a hot stove, he learns not to do it again. He retains that type of knowledge. This is the reason we all agree that if there was more emphasis on sport and PE in our schools, there would be a different type of society. I wonder if there is any correlation between our allowing sport and PE to slide so far down our priority list and the concomitant rise in the use of drugs in disadvantaged areas. We should look at this.

Senators also talked about facilities. It is easy to blame all past Governments for not providing enough facilities. Perhaps we have been culpable for not putting enough in. However, £16 million is available in my Department to be paid out to over 780 projects approved by different Governments. That is £16 million for projects which have not yet been completed. As this is taxpayers' money, naturally we must ensure the money is being well spent. If the documentation comes to me and the projects are completed we will be happy to pay out.

I appreciate Senator Costello's mention of the young people's facilities fund. Some £20 million was given by the sub-committee chaired by the Taoiseach to the young people's facilities fund in disadvantaged areas to pursue policies agreed in the past. Rather than cut back on any projects which were committed under the £20 million, we decided to give an extra £4.8 million. This shows there is a commitment and hopefully we will be able to provide those types of facilities for people in disadvantaged areas.

Senators mentioned PE facilities in schools. There is need to use the facilities. Some schools have PE halls and sometimes we receive applications from the same community for a community centre. I would prefer if there were better PE halls in our schools which the communities could use as community halls. Then the community would become more interested in the school and the school would be of more interest to the community. We should approach this along these lines and avoid duplication.

It is only natural that clubs, such as athletic, soccer, hurling and rugby clubs in towns such as Cork or Limerick, should want to retain their identity. Sometimes six different clubs in an area will apply for lottery funding over a few years. That means we must provide six sets of toilets, dressing rooms and pitches. That is a huge amount of duplication. Senator Gibbons suggested the local authority should be more involved in sports facilities. In the larger towns in particular, I encourage local authorities and sports organisations to come together so that we do not have this duplication of facilities which wastes a huge amount of capital. If a community can co-operate under the local authority it can benefit the whole community. Perhaps Senator Gibbons could pass on my congratulations to Carlow Rugby Club on their vision in allowing hurling to be played on their pitch. Hope springs eternal. They have a vision in which we are all too willing to participate.

Senator Cregan mentioned swimming pools. In discussing all aspects of this Bill in both Houses, he is the only person who has caught on to the enormous cost of swimming pools. Most of those participating in swimming are under 18 years of age. There have been problems in that sport but hopefully that is now behind us. I hope to be in a position to restore funding shortly as soon as I receive a report. The Senator is correct that swimming pools are marvellous facilities. Research shows the number one recreation for Irish people is walking and the second is swimming. It is very expensive but we could have a strategy on the matter. I know areas where there are four swimming pools along a 50 kilometre stretch of road and they are all losing money. We cannot become parochial in an area which is very costly to the local authority. Swimming is a marvellous sport and if there was a strategy and people got together and focused, we could provide facilities. There are too many swimming facilities too close together and as a consequence they all go down. There are now nearly £40 million worth of repairs needed to local authority swimming pools. If there had been a more strategic and focused positioning of those swimming pools, many of them could have been profitable and would have been able to look after their problems. They cost a lot. Some people say we should have pools in every town but that is very ambitious and it is not possible even though swimming pools are tremendous facilities.

Major towns around the coast require swimming pools. However we are an island nation, we have an island mentality and many of us have the sea at our backs. Large areas in the midlands unfortunately do not have those facilities and if possible I would like to prioritise the swimming facilities in midland areas.

Senator Cregan also talked about giving the councils some punch. Senator Costello also mentioned Members and members of councils not being allowed on the sports council. We, in the Houses of the Oireachtas, have handed over a lot of power in recent years to specific areas. We are becoming bereft of power and as public representatives we have been elected to bring forward legislation and policies. That is the reason I am trying to put sport on a statutory basis. However, we must also learn from our mistakes in the past. We have handed over too much power far too quickly. Both Houses should have an input, but I intend the council to pack a punch, given a little space and time.

Members also asked about the type of council to be set up. I do not envisage setting up a sport council just to facilitate an excellent sports person in a particular sport, a Gaelic football player, hurler, tennis player, swimmer, etc. We need people who can look into the future of sport, people who have worked and been successful in corporate business. The same principles apply to business and sports today. In order to be successful in business you need to have a strategic plan for the future. That same type of strategy is necessary for sport. In case anyone is under the illusion that I will set up a sports council to facilitate someone who is the fastest 100 metre athlete or good at long distance running, I do not work on that criterion. I do hope the council will be set up on a strategic basis.

Senator Moylan also referred to the Minister for Education and Science and the setting up of the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. Our Departments are linked and I have already referred to physical education. Members should continue to emphasise the importance of sport in schools. It is vital for the future of sport that it enters the minds of young people at an early age.

Senator Cosgrave mentioned the tourism aspect of sport and the Tour de France. I could not agree with him more. We also had the Tall Ships race. We will also host the Ryder Cup and the Special Olympics. We could not buy the type of exposure afforded to a country that televises a major sporting event world-wide. For example, the Tour de France attracted 70 million viewers per day throughout Europe. It is worthwhile investing in sporting events. Ireland will host the Special Olympics in 2003 and the Ryder Cup, which will be phenomenal. After that we will not have to invest another penny in golf. I hope we attract more major events. As Senator Cosgrave said, there is a large tourism aspect to sport.

Senator Ormonde mentioned the points system and how it is taking over students. She was critical of the fact that parents are concentrating on their children securing as many points as possible in their exams. The points system is important but she pointed out that too much emphasis is being placed on it as opposed to the sporting side of a child's education and development. As I have said in the past, I would love to see the day when our children are addicted to sports rather than alcohol and drugs. That would be a desire of all of us.

Gender balance will be maintained. I see no reason more women should not become involved in sport. I examined the sport allocations and discovered that men's sports were subsidised a lot more than women's sports. I hope if we introduce a gender balance that it will create a greater awareness among women of the benefits of sport. Many women tend to stop playing sports around 18 years of age. With the current development of ladies football, camogie and other sports, I see no reason women cannot continue playing long past 18 years of age. I would like more women to become involved in sport. I hope the gender balance on the council will ensure that.

I love the game of soccer and I wish the Football Association of Ireland well in the development of their arena. However, the provision of a national stadium has been examined for the past ten years. J. P. McManus is prepared to invest a large amount of money in a national stadium. He wants to give back something to this country because it has been good to him. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, whose religious homes are more likely to be Croke Park and the Curragh as opposed to Croagh Patrick and Lough Derg, are also interested in the project. A high powered committee has also been set up and it is preparing a feasibility study of a national stadium. Dublin and Ireland requires a national stadium but corporate Ireland has only so much to offer. Let us not lose the three basic facilities we already have because if I let the national stadium idea go now it will be lost forever. I believe we need a national stadium but I will not pre-empt the results of a feasibility study. I also believe that this city and country cannot support three stadia but I assure you that I am committed to securing another stadium. Both the Football Association of Ireland and the Irish Rugby Football Union need a stadium. Why do we not come together and clear up this issue? In order for a national stadium to be viable it needs one or two good tenants.

Mr. D. Cregan

Hear, hear.

Dr. McDaid

I have dealt with most of the points raised by Members. However, someone raised the issue of elite sports versus recreational ones. This is the first time elite athletes can avail of £1 million through the carding system. I will explain how this system works. An athlete ranked between number 1 and 3 in the world can receive £25,000 from this State in order to allow them pursue their career. If an athlete is ranked between number 4 and 10 they qualify for £18,000. If they are ranked number 11 down to 15 or 16 they qualify for £16,000. That grant system caters for the very top athletes down to the junior developing athlete. Disabled athletes can also avail of grants. The system enables people to develop their sporting abilities. I hope the State will also compensate athletes for any extra training they undertake.

Sustaining an injury is the greatest worry for an athlete. They may have a sponsor who invests £10,000 but if an athlete's knee is knocked out of commission a medical bill can absorb all that money in one go. The carding system allows an athlete to accept sponsorship along with grant aid. Provided an athlete joins the anti-doping carding scheme, medical facilities such as X-rays and scans will be provided free. Some £1 million will be provided for this specific purpose. Perhaps there is a perception that we are looking after elite athletes as opposed to ordinary recreational athletes. Some £50 million will be made available to the national governing bodies over the next three years to provide facilities for recreational sport, not professional sport. The amount of grant-aid provided by the State far outweighs the amount of money provided to elite athletes. Nonetheless, I understand the Senator's concerns about putting the emphasis on recreational sport in which 99 per cent of people are involved. I assure Senators that the sports council will look at this aspect.

It would take a whole session to debate drugs in sport. However, I will be pleased to return to other aspects which might concern Senators on Committee or Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman (Dr. Henry)

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mr. Moylan

Tuesday of next week.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 11 May 1999.