Role of County Councils: Statements.

Mr. Coogan

I welcome the Minister of State to the House to discuss an issue, which every Senator holds dear given that it involves their electorate. The Order Paper refers to "Statements on the Role of County Councils" and we assumed this morning that it only involved them, but I am glad that the Leader indicated that debate is to cover borough councils, UDCs, etc. However, I will confine myself to discuss county and borough councils.

The role of county councillors is one that many recently and newly elected members will find out for themselves soon and had they been aware of the amount of work that faces them, many might have decided that it was not a role in life they wanted to play. It is easier to define what is not the role of a councillor. He must be an expert on water pollution, sewerage, waste and its disposal, recycling, incineration, road maintenance and repairs, planning, housing and many other issues. His role, therefore, is extensive. I will refer back to something that is important in understanding the role of county councillors and the amount of work involved later.

The local elections are over and approximately half the electorate has spoken. Although the pattern and membership of local government has been settled for the next five years, we cannot be satisfied that barely half the electorate demonstrated an interest in and support for the concept of local government. It is possible to view this outcome on the basis of a glass half full and a glass half empty. Too much has been made of the low turnout for the elections, but it remains that the case that more than 1.4 million people voted. This might not be an overwhelming endorsement of the local government system but it is a powerful one as it provides a mandate that can be built on to deliver a local government service over the next five years that will not leave room for complacency when the next local government poll takes place.

The role of county councillors is so demanding that compensation for them must be taken into account. More than 1,800 candidates offered themselves for election on 11 June, people who were prepared to forsake their privacy, their personal and family time and a share of their income and other business opportunities. It is often the case that many people give so much time to local government that their own businesses and families suffer. A councillor's family is also involved taking telephone messages and carrying out other jobs for him, yet councillors are prepared to give up time and privacy in a context where people do not seem to get involved unless it is at the end of a television remote control. It must be encouraging to know that there is at least an element of selfless, civic spirit in Irish life. However, if we are to hold on to that level of enthusiasm for elected office, we must also adopt a realistic tone in terms of the support and compensation available to those who take on the burdens of public office.

The General Council of County Councils, of which I am the representative in this House, has shown with in research that many councillors spend up to 34 hours per week on average serving their local communities. It carried out a poll of all county councillors. Where else would this level of dedication be found for compensation that works out currently at as low as £60 to £80 per week? We do not seek to introduce a mercenary note into the equation of elected service. Nevertheless, most elected members are involved as a result of a commitment to the public. We must be realistic – if local government is to continue to attract capable, committed people, including those who can bring valuable skills from the world of business and other professions and their own experiences, we must look seriously at how elected members are compensated.

This is particularly the case with the imminent introduction of strategic policy committees, which will bring councillors to centre stage in a corporate context. It does not given me any pleasure to record that their birth has been troubled. While the concept has its merits and councillors, by and large, have agreed to give it a try, a growing problem is caused by protracted delays, which are not due to the councillors themselves. Many of them were lambasted in the press for accepting expenses for meetings that were not held. They were not held because of external trade union difficulties and not due to anything the councillors did. It was unfair to attack them on that basis. The fact that the strategic policy committees are not ready for implementation before the annual meetings of county councils on Friday next may cause some problems.

Some councils have already made appointments to their customary internal housing, library and vocational education committees, and others will do so. What will be the position of such committees if the programme for new strategic policy committees is renewed in the autumn? Will they cease to exist? Will they be absorbed into SPCs or will we end up with the worst of all worlds with the traditional committees persisting and the new bodies beginning to function? I understand a working group is reviewing the set up of the SPCs on which the general council is represented by my friend and colleague, councillor Constance Hannify. I trust there will be no delay in implementing the recommendations of the working group.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Caffrey)

The Senator has one minute remaining.

Mr. Coogan

This morning on the Order of Business we sought an extension of time and the Leader of the House indicated he was willing provide it. Therefore, I beg the Chair's indulgence.

I question the timing of proposed reforms to the vocational education committees which, according to signals from the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Martin, will be obliged by legislation due sometime next year to include parents and staff representatives. What implications will this have for the vocational education committees which will be appointed by the county councils this Friday? Will members appointed this week by the councils be told in a year's time, following whatever legislation the Minister may bring forward, that their services are no longer required? It is a pity that the legislation to reform the vocational education committees was not available before this year's local elections. After all, there was plenty of notice; the elections were eight years in coming. What about delays in the area of committee structures for local authorities?

I am pleased that at last progress is being made on another long standing priority of the general council, training. I understand that a working group on the council, whose membership includes the chairman of the general council, councillor Tom Kelleher, has proposals at an advanced stage to organise induction programmes and long-term training opportunities for elected members beginning this autumn. Credit must go to the councillors' representative associations for maintaining the priority on training needs for councillors, which often appear to be overlooked alongside the more high profile pressure for changes in councillors' ways of working.

I cannot allow this occasion to pass without referring to the twentieth amendment to the Constitution, which I understand will be signed into law this week by the President. We will have an opportunity to discuss this during Private Members' time this evening. Low turnouts, voter confusion and the difficulty of enthusing the pub lic about the subject of the referendum have been mentioned in the House in recent days. However, despite the sceptics, the referendum was passed by an impressive 732,000 votes. This means that almost 750,000 citizens voted in favour of enshrining the values of directly elected local government in the Constitution. This is a powerful endorsement and one as large in scale as on many other past amendments to the Constitution. Ireland now joins the ranks of progressive world nations in having a specific reference to local government in its Constitution.

One more step needs to be taken and now that the referendum has been passed, there should be no reason to delay it. It is the full ratification by Ireland of the European charter of local self-government. It is not positive for the Government that Ireland was one of the last EU member states to sign the charter in 1997. We have watched as our neighbours in the UK, with their reputation as euro sceptics, signed this European instrument while Ireland, which is ostensibly enthusiastic about Europe, appeared to drag its heels.

Mr. Walsh

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace, to the House. The Department of the Environment and Local Government has a significant role in the activities of local government and charting the way forward. It is good that the Minister of State is present to listen to the comments of Senators who are involved in local government.

I concur with the points made by Senator Coogan. Undoubtedly, the general demands on local and national politicians are fast increasing. Councillors must be equipped with proper resources in terms of finance, training and research facilities to allow them to undertake their duties and responsibilities in a professional and comprehensive fashion. It is good that the contribution of local government over the last 100 years to the development of the State was recognised and overwhelmingly endorsed in the constitutional referendum. This is a measure of the interest people have in the activities of local councils.

Senator Coogan referred to the turnout in the recent local elections. In other member states of the EU, turnouts as low as 20 or 25 per cent were recorded. In Ireland, the turnout nationally was more than double that level. It is fair to attribute much of that increased turnout to people's interest in who represents them at local level and the performance of local councils. Despite the comments about the level of turnout in Ireland, it compares favourably to the position elsewhere. Unless legislation is introduced, such as that in New Zealand, to penalise people who do not vote, the turnout probably will not increase significantly.

It is also good at the beginning of the second century of local government's contribution to the State to reflect on some of the achievements over the past 100 years. We should remind ourselves that much of what we take for granted now, in terms of infrastructure and meeting social needs, was deficient in the early years of the State. It is fair to say that the period of occupation by the British was not marked by a great deal of attention to or investment in meeting the needs of society or communities throughout the country. Much has had to be done, particularly since independence.

With regard to water supply, for example, many elderly people can recall going to a local pump in urban areas to get water. This situation lasted much longer in rural areas, but everybody now has running water which is generally of good quality. This and improvements in sanitary services generally were major steps forward. We take them for granted now and forget the days when such facilities were not available to the population.

An area of activity and public service which was part of the local government system, although that has been forgotten, is the health services and hospitals. Many of the developments which took place under the auspices of local authorities still serve to meet the health needs of people in local communities. I often wonder whether the changes which introduced the health board system as an alternative to the involvement of local authorities achieved the objectives desired by those who introduced them. County and urban councils are vehicles for the provision of services on a much wider scale than the remit provided to them by central Government.

Local authorities can take particular pride in the provision of public housing. It is good that over the past 25 years, the quality of local government housing stock has exceeded the quality of the accommodation provided by the private sector. It is good to drive through urban and rural areas and note that private and local authority housing schemes are often indistinguishable because of the improved quality. It is a great resource and has contributed to ensuring that people have adequate accommodation. There are two basic needs in society, accommodation and the right to work. The country has developed well on both these scores and much of that is attributable to the contribution of local government.

In some parts of the country there are serious pothole problems but, by and large, the surfaces on our county and national roads are reasonably good, and a fine job is done by local authorities within the constraints of the resources made available to them by the Department. As to the national roads, as I have said before, a modern economy such as ours should have the benefit of an infrastructure of the same standard as that in competing countries in Europe – a system of dual carriageways and motorways across the country. Unfortunately, there has been a dearth of investment in that area and this must be rectified.

We have taken great national pride in our good use of Cohesion and Structural Funds, which were ploughed into underdeveloped areas, and at European Commission level Ireland is held up as a model in this regard. It is only right that the national Parliament should acknowledge that much of that investment was channelled through local government and, therefore, much credit is due to local councils for the value received from the expenditure and for our current growth rates.

Apart from the statutory areas, some of the non-statutory areas of local government activities are impressive also. For instance, many fine municipal swimming pools have been provided from scarce resources, sometimes from local fund raising, and are managed by local authorities. They are tremendous amenity and leisure assets for their localities and the same is true of rural and urban public gardens.

Councils have also played a part in industrial development, within limited resources and with a limited remit. There may be a greater role for local government in the development of industrial parks, sites and buildings. In Wexford recently we prepared a consultation report which highlighted the needs of the county, particularly our small industrial base, and made suggestions for improving and enhancing our prospects. Regrettably, the council has neither the resources nor the remit to bring that report to fruition.

The range and scope of local councils is curtailed not by the capacity, willingness or desire of local authorities but by the failure of successive Governments to resource, empower and devolve functions to them to enable them to fulfil a more meaningful role in society for local communities. In examining the various aspects of the comprehensive local government Bill which we expect in the next few months, I hope the Minister uses the Bill to address the shortcomings and failures of the past and to remove the inhibitions on local government to allow it to fulfil its potential.

As we move into the next 100 years of local government it is good to see changes taking place. Senator Coogan mentioned the establishment of SPCs and corporate policy groups, both of which will provide much more focus from the councillors' perspective in the evolution and development of policy rather than letting it come from the executive side as it has in the past. It is unacceptable that the establishment and operation of SPCs have been thwarted by union activity in the public service. The democratic will should not be frustrated by people pursuing self-interest through the trade union movement or in another way. Unions have an obligation and staff have a right to pursue their interests and ensure that they get fair play but they should not do so to obstruct changes in democratic structures.

Industrial relations in the private sector have changed over the last decade under the ambit of social partnership at national level. I hope this finds favour in the public service also and we can avoid the current obstruction of the establishment of these bodies. If that does not happen, other mechanisms for contracting local govern ment services should be examined. All roadblocks of self-interest should be removed.

Boundary extensions should be much more possible for urban authorities because of increased urbanisation. Senator Coogan mentioned the role, recognition and resources of councillors. It is high time councillors were paid a salary – this has been suggested by LAMA and the General Council of County Councils. Councillors are the only people working in the public service who are not paid. As the Senator said, many of them work 34 hours a week, they work at weekends, they are available to their constituents and for council activities seven days a week, 52 weeks a year, to benefit their local communities. The day is gone when that could be done on a voluntary basis. Equally, while the gratuity system was welcomed here it may be time for the Minister to re-examine it. Many fine councillors who gave years of service to their local authorities and communities were unsuccessful at this election. They should be commended for participating in the democratic process rather than being penalised by being unable to participate in the gratuity scheme.

There is much to be done as we move forward into the next 100 years. I have no doubt the Minister will rise to the challenge and that local government will make an even greater contribution in the future.

Mr. D. Kiely

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dan Wallace, and compliment him on the excellent job he is doing. I pay tribute to everyone who put their names forward in the local election; I congratulate those who were elected and commiserate with those who were defeated. To start where Senator Walsh finished, as chairman of the General Council of County Councils and throughout my membership of that body, I have sought a reward for people who have given so much service to local authorities and have vigorously pursued an equitable provision for them, such as a pension plan. The scheme which was put forward did not satisfy everyone but at least it gave them recognition. I call on the Minister to compensate fairly those who lost their seats after years of service.

It is fitting to have this debate on the 100th anniversary of local government and following a referendum to include local government in the Constitution for the first time. Few people knew what that referendum was about but we who canvassed on the doorsteps encouraged people to vote "yes" because it was the right thing to do. It will give recognition to local authorities.

For the first time, we know an election will be held in five years. That is important. We should have more elections. The last county council term was too long and we were too removed from the people and their problems. I would be in favour of reducing the term to four years because many issues were raised during the election.

I live in a rural part of Kerry and I travel up and down by-roads and culs-de-sac in which eight, ten or 15 families live. Senator Walsh must have excellent roads in his part of the country but in Kerry a person could be buried alive in some of the holes in the roads; the holes are so big we would not need to build swimming pools. It took a truck load of hard-core material to repair damage done to a road in Gortnaminch outside Listowel. The people had to contribute towards the cost of repairing that road because there was not enough money available through the normal system. A great deal of money is being spent on roads but the by-roads and the culs-de-sac are put at the end of the list and are forgotten. These roads tend to be patched up but that is not good enough. County councillors are the voice of the people and they have to be heard.

Our economy is booming and there is a great deal of extra money available, but I was appalled by a report in one of the newspapers recently – I may call for a special debate in this House – which stated that for every £10 given by the Minister to local government for roads only £1 is spent on materials, in other words, £9 goes towards administration, maps, drawings, etc. That is wrong. This issue will have to be examined. The least we can expect is that administration, etc., would take up half the amount and the remaining would be spent on materials. Perhaps the Minister should consider engaging companies to work on particular stretches of road. That will be important for the future and it will have to be examined.

I want to talk about the role of the county councillor. The county councillor is a full-time social worker. If somebody wants to find out about the carer's allowance, local improvement schemes, group water schemes, planning matters, etc., the councillor is expected to provide all that information to the person he or she is representing. Over the years, councillors acquire an enormous amount of knowledge and they become experts in their own fields, yet they are not properly rewarded for that work.

A home to base scheme was introduced some years ago but in large counties like my own, or the Minister of State's county of Cork, county councillors attend a certain number of meetings per year and are paid from home to base. However, if a whale is washed ashore in, say, Gouganebarra and councillors want to see it up close, they are paid expenses only from home to base even though they may have to travel 100 miles. The public would want to know from the councillors when the carcass will be removed, and they are expected to have all the answers, but they are not being properly rewarded for that work. I welcome the postage and telephone allowance for councillors, but it is totally inadequate.

Restricting councillors to a certain number of meetings is wrong. Many new committees have been established including water, environmental, sewerage and traveller committees. Councillors are expected to attend all those meetings but they are not even paid travelling expenses. Councillors are also expected to be members of Leader boards but they are not paid for that work. They are expected to be members of other organisations and boards but on a voluntary basis. Councillors who are members of county enterprise boards also work on a voluntary basis. They are not even paid travelling expenses to attend these meetings. They are expected to do all this work on a voluntary basis. We are a voluntary organisation. Anyone who is considering running for election to a county council would want to have a good job which allowed them at least two or three days off with full pay every week. They should be compensated for serving the people who elect them.

I welcome the proposed restructuring which the Minister said will take place before the end of the year but he will have to examine closely the role of the county councillor. What does the county councillor do? Is he or she properly rewarded? If a councillor wants to travel to Brussels, the United States or elsewhere to see a new method of building houses it will hit the headlines of every newspapers in the country. They will say we are off again on a junket. How are councillors supposed to gain knowledge if they are treated like that? Two or three councillors might do this but thousands of others are tarred with the same brush. We are told we are on the gravy train again. There is no gravy train. The councillors I know say it costs them money to be members of a council. They are doing this work because they want to do it, and the least they are entitled to is a reward for attending meetings.

When the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is drawing up the new scheme for councillors, I ask him to examine the question of a reward for the work they do. I do not know the exact amount of money I will receive as a member of the new council. I was delighted to be re-elected with such a large vote, and I thank all the people who voted for me. I believe I will receive about £15 per day but that is to cover travel expenses, telephone and postage allowances, etc. That amounts to approximately £350 or £400 per month, which is not good enough. A council can set up many committees – health, agriculture, advisory, etc., but one might as well be whistling in the wind because there is no reward for all that work.

The setting up of the new boards, the SPCs, is an exciting development. I call on those who are holding up the formation of these SPCs to get their act together and give the services back to the people, which they deserve.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of councillors because there is no doubt that they are the social workers of the century. I compliment every councillor who went before the people for election. One must be brave to do that. I think it was Senator Coogan who spoke about the number of hours a councillor must work per week, and that is just on council meetings, but councillors can be invited to attend four or five other meetings in rural towns and villages in their constituency. They have to attend all those meetings and are often obliged to entertain people afterwards.

Council work is now a full-time job. The role of the councillor will have to be examined and I appeal to the Minister and the Minister of State to do that when the new structure is being put in place.

Mr. Costello

I, too, welcome the opportunity to speak on the important subject of the role of county councils, county borough councils, town commissioners and urban district councils, all of which come under the heading of local authorities. This is a useful discussion in the centenary year of the foundation of local democracy and immediately following the local elections. Local democracy was a glorious success in 1899 but now there is a grave danger that only a minority of people will come out and vote. This is the most serious threat to our local democratic system. If sufficient numbers are not prepared to vote, a minority of voters will be electing people to local government. That would not be healthy. We must examine the attractiveness of our local and national democracy systems and look carefully at how we might encourage more people to vote. Fortunately, social and political studies have been included in the curriculum for second level schools. This is an important initiative which should continue.

We must also consider the manner in which people are encouraged to vote. People were confused by the amount of material put before them in the elections. There were three ballot papers and voters were totally confused about the referendum. Because the European and local elections were held on the same day, people did not know for which election candidates were standing. This caused further confusion. People were asking me whether I was standing for the European elections or local elections. This information should be more streamlined.

As the Minister of State knows, polling stations are not the most user-friendly places. Very few polling stations are easily accessible to the disabled because of the steps leading up to them. Is there a reason there cannot be greater flexibility in voting? Does voting have to take place on the same day or should people not be entitled to vote at their place of work? The system should be streamlined and monitored properly. I do not understand why there should be a bottleneck of polling stations on which the politicians and posters focus. We should consider a more flexible system of voting rather than holding a number of elections on the same day. I believe Friday is a bad day to hold elections because when people finish their week's work they may wish to go out for a few drinks at 5 o'clock. The last thing they want to do after arriving home is to go out again. Many people do not vote for this reason. Saturday and Sunday, or Saturday/Sunday, would be more suitable. If elections are to be held on Fri day, people should be allowed to vote in the workplace.

Photographs should be on all ballot papers from now on. It must be made easier for the electorate to identify the candidates for whom they wish to vote. The register of electors must also be looked at. This is very inadequate and local authorities are not doing nearly enough to ensure that all the electorate are on the register. Whole streets of people are not being registered and this is not satisfactory.

On the role of local authorities, after ensuring the democratic system is made as attractive as possible for the electorate in exercising their vote, we must ensure it is resourced adequately. There has been an element of ring-fencing money obtained through motor taxation. If this were made available to local authorities it would enable them to plan ahead on an annual basis. Such a development plan should include the cost basis for, say, a five year period, and local authorities should know what money will be available to them over that period. There should be more co-operation with the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the Minister should liaise with each local authority as they develop their five year plan. This will determine whether the plan can be implemented and if resources will be forthcoming. For example, the housing budget now comes directly from the Department of the Environment and Local Government; the local authorities provide none of the funding. Major developments are financed directly by the Department and this should be phased in and agreed as part of the development plan.

We must also emphasise the importance and primacy of elected members. While putting together SPCs and introducing other interests, we must remember that this is local democracy, and local democracy is based on people who beaver away and put themselves and their policies before the electorate and are then returned by the people. No one else does this and no one else should be involved in overall decision making. We must protect this role at all costs while inviting in other interests in an advisory capacity. To make this possible, we must ensure that local authorities are resourced properly.

Councillors must have adequate resourcing and remuneration. It is proper that an acceptable level of remuneration be put in place rather than the ad hoc system which has existed up to now. Councillors who must attend a plethora of meetings have not been remunerated adequately. This is an important job, particularly at county borough and county council level, and this should be reflected in the remuneration members receive. It should also be reflected in the resources made available to councillors. Research, secretarial and office facilities must also be made available. Councillors should not be out of pocket when contacting their constituents. If these measures are put in place, it will give a greater dignity and status to locally elected people. This, in itself, will give a boost to local democracy. The provision of adequate resources to the local authorities, in the first instance, and to the individual councillor is very important. If these resources are not made available, the future will certainly be bleak.

It is worth examining the question of an elected mayor. We have gone down a very different road in the past, that is, providing the county and city managers with great powers and having a strong civil service within local authorities. If we decide to go in another direction, it will be an enormous change in the basic approach. It might be worth carrying out an experiment in much the same way as was done in England. A plebiscite was carried out in London to find out if there was support for this concept. It was found that 75 per cent of the people were in favour of directly elected mayors. It would be worth carrying out an experiment of this type in Dublin and Cork. This would be a huge undertaking but it would mean having a directly elected executive with a five year manifesto. The Lord Mayor and his or her team would then be responsible for implementing the manifesto. If they failed to deliver on what was put before the people, they could be rejected in the next election.

There have been complaints for a long time that local authorities fail to deliver adequately on the ground in many areas. It would put it up to local authorities if the directly elected mayor or cathaoirleach was in a position to bring in a team and deliver on their promises.

This is a worthwhile discussion and I hope the Minister accepts the points made and that we will see a substantial, consolidating Bill before the end of the year.

Ms Ormonde

I welcome the Minister of State. Local government is the arm of Government closest to the community. It is the backbone of the democratic process and deals with issues as they arise locally. Politics is really about local issues and how people's quality of life can be improved. All of us put ourselves forward and asked for a mandate to improve the quality of life in relation to the environment, housing, roads or more emotive issues such as dumps, incinerators or traveller halting sites. Whatever issue arises, we are given a mandate to reflect the needs of the people to the best of our ability.

We have talked about the reform of local government for the past 12 months. That reform gave power to local people to make decisions about local issues and created a new deal to serve community needs for housing, urban renewal, planning and development, recreation and leisure facilities and water and sewerage infrastructure. It involves creating opportunities to engage the local community, which has those interests at heart, and it also gives local councillors more power. That is what we have been told, but now the dust has settled and we are speaking as experienced councillors who have been at the coalface for years.

I was one of those who raised the issue of how reform is to be reconciled with our present position. I feel we will have more power, in the form of the reserved function of councillors, to fulfill the mandate given to reflect the needs of communities and I will fight for that. On the other side is the executive power, which is that of the manager. If councillors cannot make a decision or if their decision clashes with national concerns or local opposition, they then face a dilemma. Have we faced up to this problem? When councillors are given a mandate to oppose dumps and incinerators, how can we reconcile that position with the power of the county manager to take on his role over our heads? It is a dilemma we must face up to in the new era of local government.

I welcome the fact that local government has been put on a statutory footing by the referendum. This means that councillors are now recognised as full blown politicians, so to speak. Every five years they will have to account to the public for their work. Now the dust has settled and we are ready for the new era in local government, will the reforms take root? How effective will the SPCs be? I accept that they will only be as good as the people on them, but how effective will councillors be in reflecting the needs of their communities? There will be problems when representatives must side with the national interest for the common good in the face of local opposition. How does local democracy come into play when we face a problem like that? A huge majority of people in an area may oppose a decision, but that decision may be correct even if it is unfair in a particular context. This shows that there is still a conflict between the executive and reserved roles of managers and councillors.

I welcome the new Bill and I hope the Minister addresses my concerns. If a community feels a local development affects the quality of their lives and they oppose it, we must listen or there is no local democracy. We want to give power to the people. That is why the SPCs are set up – to link with the community and to give it a say. If local people's opinions are not reflected, they will say that councillors cannot and should not have any powers. They will say that the manager should make decisions on issues and question the role of the councillors. The Minister should reflect on this matter, as it will arise repeatedly. It should be addressed for once and for all.

We have fine councillors in every part of Ireland – they are not shrinking violets and they will face up to decisions. Their salaries and allowances will have to be considered. They should be recognised for the work, travel and hours they put in, from morning to night, listening to people's views.

A committee was set up to redraw electoral boundaries and I would like to have seen its terms of reference, particularly those relating to the ratio of councillors to population. I question why some constituencies had three seats, some five and some seven. The ratio was not necessarily the same in all cases. I would like to see the committee's report and to ask questions about it. I compliment the councillors who ran for election and did not take their gratuities. Some of them were not elected and may lose out despite having given years of service. The Minister should consider their long service.

Senators present who are councillors are very experienced. We have been through tough times and are delighted to be back. We have a role to play in the new millennium and we have received a great endorsement from the electorate. We have been given new powers to make local government work in our areas and the Minister has put the reforms on a firm footing. I look forward to a full discussion of the points I have raised when we debate the forthcoming Bill.

Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Dempsey)

I thank Members for proposing this motion. I congratulate those who have been elected to local authorities and I congratulate all members of local authorities. I note the historic nature of the 1999 local elections, the last which can be deferred by Government. Assuming the Bill is enacted, these will have been the last elections which Members of the Oireachtas may contest. In future local government will be truly local.

This is an exciting time of change and renewal for local government, now recognised in the Constitution as a fundamental part of our democratic system. In the recent referendum, the overwhelming support of the electorate was given for constitutional recognition of local government. I acknowledge that support. Major changes are taking place in local government. A comprehensive piece of legislation is being prepared to consolidate and modernise the local government legislative code. This legislation is part of an ongoing process of reform and renewal and will focus on the role of elected members as well as involving the community in local government in a greater way.

These themes run through the report of the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government on the reform of local government which I discussed with the joint committee some time ago. Among the measures being considered for inclusion are enhanced leadership through the introduction of directly elected cathaoirligh; the rebalancing of the relationship between the executive and the elected council to safeguard the primacy of the elected member, to which Senator Ormonde has referred; greater involvement of elected members in the formulation, development and implementation of policies through the CPG and SPCs; the introduction of an ethical framework for elected members and local authority officials to ensure that the system is open and accountable; measures to develop the constitutionally recognised role of local government in developing the interests of the local community; the establishment of an independent local government commission; the introduction of some payment for elected members on an ongoing basis and consolidation and modernisation of the meetings and procedures provisions for local authorities.

Work on this legislation is well in hand. Four tranches of what is expected to be a five tranche Bill have been drafted and I expect the Bill to be published soon, in keeping with my commitment to publish the legislation in the centenary year of local government. This legislation and renewal programme will provide for a modern and revitalised local government system which will meet the challenges of the next century.

I am delighted with the result of the recent referendum on recognition of local government. This recognition will give local government the support it deserves and will bring our Constitution into line with our continental European neighbours. By fixing the maximum interval between elections the legislation will prevent the deferral of elections, which in the past has served to devalue our system of local government. The extension of the lives of councils has had a negative effect on the image of local government and has reduced the effectiveness of elected members. When councillors are in office for eight or nine years cosy cartels are formed, council officials make their own alliances within the system and elected members are not as efficient as they should be in overseeing the role of the executive. As Senator Ormonde pointed out, public representatives will be more conscious of the needs of the public when they are obliged to go before them for election every five years. Local democracy and the local government system will be strengthened by the new legislation.

The strategic policy committees are a central feature of the programme for local government renewal. The SPCs will see elected members and representatives of local sectoral interests working together to make better local government policy. Policy matters will be at the core of the SPC system. Successful organisations, public or private, plan for their future. Local authorities are no exception. The SPCs will facilitate the early input of elected members into developing policies appropriate to their local authorities. They will do so with the benefit of the knowledge and expertise of the local sectoral interests.

The new county and city councils provide an important opportunity to relaunch the SPCs. The SPCs will benefit from the work of the broadly representative working group which I established earlier this year to examine the SPC guidelines. The group will bring forward proposals for my consideration in time for the establishment and operation of the SPCs by the new councils. Despite industrial relations difficulties, it is my intention that the SPC system will be in place and operated by local authorities within the next few months. As soon as the revised guidelines are published, I will instruct local authorities to establish SPCs and to consult with the necessary interests to insure they are established.

A number of players are involved in development initiatives at local level. State agencies, local development groups and community groups operate currently according to their own plans and perspectives. From January 2000 they will work in a single arena, the county and city development boards, where plans and perspectives will be drawn together. The CDBs, led by local government, will see local development and the social partners as well as State agencies looking at the county and city needs as a whole. They will be working towards an agreed strategy for an economic, social and cultural development of the county or city. The boards will greatly enhance the capacity at local level to absorb and adapt policies to local circumstances. Local government will lead but not control the boards. This is because the entire process is based on partnership, the only way we can assure that the CDBs fulfil their potential.

This is an opportunity for local government to prove itself as real local government. I am confident that local authorities will rise to the challenge. The first task of the county and city development boards will be the development of the strategy or vision for the city or county. All State agencies, local development groups and community groups will be asked to ensure that their strategies are in accordance with the general strategy for the county or city.

The extension of the strategic management initiatives to local authorities is already under way and will gather momentum. On 21 October 1998 the Freedom of Information Act became operable in local authorities. This will increase openness and transparency in their operations and contribute to better quality decision-making. Enhanced financial management systems are being introduced which will increase efficiency in the management of resources. Crucially, there is a strong and growing emphasis on better customer service. Many local authorities are currently engaged in one-stop projects which will enable the provision of decentralised integrated public services through co-operation and co-ordination with other public service providers. My Department is contributing to the funding of these projects. Many other local initiatives are under way and I will continue to ensure that enhanced customer focus is a priority in local government.

The new local authority funding system which came into operation last January will play a pivotal role in promoting accountable and cost-effective local democracy. It will deliver significant additional resources to local authorities. Moneys from the fund will, as far as possible, be made available to local authorities as general grants over which they have complete discretion as to their use. It will be largely a matter for the authorities to decide on how this extra money is to be spent. They will be accountable for their decisions to the local electorate.

Hand-in-hand with the provision of extra resources I am also ensuring that local authorities get the best possible use from these resources by means of a heightened emphasis on value for money. Local authorities will be required to show that they are obtaining value for money spent. The role of local authorities for the future must be to deliver a wide range of services for which they are responsible, to deliver them effectively and efficiently and to strike out in new directions and to re-establish themselves as the central focus at local level in partnership with local communities. The role of local authorities – and this has been adverted to by many Senators – and particularly the role of elected members is not easy. They are elected to lead the community and often must grapple with what, by any standards, are very difficult issues. There is always a balancing of competing interests in deciding what is best and what is in the interests of the common good. Whether those decisions relate to the zoning of land, the provision of waste disposal facilities or the provision of traveller accommodation, they are difficult. Ultimately, they are decisions that must be made if society is to function. They form part of the role entrusted to local government. It is often local public representatives who have to stand up and be counted for the serious decisions taken. I hope that will continue to be a feature of local government.

It is very easy for those who said "no" to everything to be all things to all people at election time. Unfortunately, the electorate elects people like that on a fairly regular basis, although, thankfully, they are not too great in numbers so that the business of local government can continue. It would be a poor day for local government if people who seemed to have nothing but negative agendas were the only ones to be elected to local government.

The need for an education and training programme for elected members is recognised by all involved in local government. This need takes on an increased urgency in the present climate of local government renewal and change. The role of the councillor is manifold, requiring at least a basic knowledge of all aspects of local government and an increasing requirement of expertise in certain areas. Through the SPC system the councillor's role of policy-maker has been enhanced, along with existing roles of service reviewer and citizen's advocate. The pivotal role of the councillor in the local government system is ever expanding and, therefore, requires more support than has been given in the past. In recognition of that, I set up a working group in May this year, which included councillors, to examine the short-term and long-term training and education needs of elected members and to provide guidelines for their provision. The group has just completed its deliberations and will shortly submit its proposals to me. We will immediately put in place a training programme for all the recently elected councillors on the basis of those proposals. We will also be putting in place a longer term training programme, as advocated by LAMA, AMAI and the General Council of County Councils for some time.

The next century will see new and different challenges, some of which we can only guess at now. Local government will face them renewed and revitalised. The ongoing programme of renewal which, I can safely say, has a large measure of support across the political spectrum will equip local government and local councillors to meet these challenges. Members can rest assured that this Government is committed to seeing the programme through and to seeing it underpinned by a modern and comprehensive framework. We can look forward with considerable confidence to the future of our local authorities, including county councils.

Our local government system was born in another age, barely 50 years after the Famine. Since then it has not only survived, but it has prospered despite many challenges including those of limited resources and changing roles. It did so because of the quality of those who served it and serve it today, the elected members and staff of local authorities. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to them. I wish all those elected every success in the next five years.

Senator Ormonde referred to the gratuity scheme in her contribution. Everybody seeking election was made aware that under the regulations they were not eligible for a gratuity. No one sought election under the illusion that they would be entitled to a gratuity. I regret that many long serving councillors did not succeed in being elected.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

I welcome the Minister to the House to address us on matters relating to local government. He has been through the mill in local government. He is not sitting in an ivory tower with position papers in front of him. He can read between the lines and knows the reality on the ground. He has contributed greatly to changing County Meath.

As the Minister said, time moves on. The local government system under which we labour at present was instituted half way through the 19th century, just after the Famine. We are now entering a new millennium – a greatly over-used phrase. New structures must be put in place. The structures brought in to date are the special policy committees and the area committees. I had doubts about the special policy committees in so far as they comprise both elected councillors and people with specialist knowledge. I am a member of the housing committee. I am sure when the Minister took office three years ago he did not foresee the huge change in housing needs. It has reached a stage where people in the middle income groups, such as gardaí, nurses, doctors and engineers, who were readily able to get housing loans in the past cannot get them now given their salary levels. On their present salaries they are not accepted for housing loans and, therefore, we will have to come up with imaginative solutions to help these people to own their own properties. Owning one's home is a deep seated aspect of the Irish psyche and nothing we can do in the short-term will change that fact. We are trying to grapple with that on the housing committee, even though we have a limited knowledge of the matter and are depending on officials to help us. We cannot call on outside expertise and, thus, we are not getting to grips with the problem in Dublin city as quickly as we should be. Our remit on Dublin Corporation is social housing, not general housing. People are now coming into the social housing category who would not have been so considered two or three years ago. The special committees have to be given time and I am glad to hear the Minister is re-examining them with a view to making them more efficient, with a more meaningful input into the running of local authorities.

I am sure the Minister will agree that the local area committees will play a more important role but they have not yet been set up in any local authority. These are the committees which, in a large urban area like Dublin, would deal with the nuts and bolts of local administration and providing services. I am referring to matters such as cleansing, sewerage and water. Such services need to be provided quickly to those who need them. We live in an era of instant service. People do not want to be told that an engineer has gone on holidays for a fortnight so nothing can be done about a problem. A local area committee and a local area manager can pull the threads of different systems together, thus providing the efficient delivery of services.

I cannot understand why such local area committees have not been set up. The Minister made an oblique reference to industrial relations problems, as well as a not so oblique reference to the fact that he would deal with the matter as soon as possible in order to get the committees up and running.

Recently we had a referendum and I was glad it was passed. It was a good motion to put before the people – that local government should be put on a statutory footing. However, the referendum commission that was set up on foot of the McKenna judgment to put both sides of the case, failed on this occasion. Outside polling booths on election day, people were asking me what the referendum was about. They knew who was running in the local and European elections and had their minds made up who to vote for, but the referendum was very esoteric. When I explained to them what it really meant, they got the gist of it and voted yes. They were, however, bereft of any meaningful information. The referendum commission is in the Minister's bailiwick so he should have a word in the delicate, shell-like ear of whoever is in charge of it, to point out certain anomalies and problems that have arisen in connection with the last referendum. The situation was not good enough on the day.

Under the new dispensation for local government, councillors will be both policy makers – in so far as it is within their remit – and representatives, through the council, of the people who elected them. They will act as a buffer between groups or individuals and the council manage ment. As more decision making power is devolved to councils this will create tensions and the political skills of councillors will be required to alleviate them. Those who survived the recent outing on the hustings bear the scars of some rather bruising encounters with various interest groups, not to mention dogs who seem to have a peculiar predilection for canvassers' legs at election time, although I am sure dogs in Dublin are no more savage than those in the rest of the country.

Sudden interest candidates or one-shot merchants were elected, often heading the poll in some areas. It will be interesting to see how they will fare at the next local elections in five years time, having had the experience of making decisions on behalf of the people in general and their own constituents in particular. There is nothing like sitting around the committee table trying to make decisions and wondering about the political or social consequences, to give people a dose of reality. One can but quote the former Speaker of the American House of Representatives, Tipp O'Neill, who said that all politics are local. In every parish in my own electoral area, there was one person – if not two people – standing on local issues.

The Minister alluded to county development boards, but does he not think they should be merged with county enterprise boards? They both deal with the same problems and act as engines of local development, albeit in different ways. City and county councils are now development agencies for their county areas.

A sheriff decides where polling stations are located, not in consultation with outgoing councillors but – sometimes, not always – with officials of the relevant county council. Decisions on polling stations were made very late into the campaign and people who had voted in one area for generations had to move a mile or so outside their own area in order to vote. No relevant reason for this was provided.

Has the Minister noted – I am sure everyone else here has – that when one registers a deposit one must pay either in cash or by bank draft, whereas if one survives the cut, one is refunded by cheque?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I welcome Senator Doyle. He has had a very good year as Lord Mayor of Dublin.

Mr. J. Doyle

I thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for those kind remarks. I have been dealing with the subject of councils for the past year and got to know the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, very well. He is a very active Minister.

I was listening to Senators calling for more power for local authorities, but it is one thing to get power and another to know how to use it. The great difficulty with local authorities is that while they have power, they very often shy away from making difficult decisions. That fact was vividly brought home to me recently when Dublin Cor poration was dealing with the city development plan. We heard about the great need for housing, yet we had great difficulty getting some urban areas rezoned for that purpose. Some people who voted against that rezoning continually put down motions seeking the construction of new housing. If one does not provide land for housing, I cannot see how one can continue to call upon the Government to build new houses. Councils should use the powers that are given to them.

We are entering an interesting phase in local government with the introduction of the SPCs which I have always favoured. In my youth, I remember the business people of Dublin standing for election to the city council. The merchants were proud to be members of the council. They represented the interests of the business people as well as other interests, but that has all stopped in the last 15 or 20 years. Very few people from the business sector of the community now stand for election, but the SPCs have the ability to draw such people in to formulate policy with the elected members. It is important that SPCs get up and running with local area committees. We are holding back until September in the hope the SPC and the local area committee will be in place because the local area committees will deal with local issues.

As Senator Fitzpatrick pointed out correctly, local government is about local issues, but they should not take up time at city council or county council meetings. These meetings should be devoted to drawing up policy for the area concerned and then asking management to implement that policy. That is the weakness of local government at present. Its members are not involved or seem reluctant to be involved in drawing up policy. There will be some hope for the future if we can separate local issues and policy issues. We will have to educate councillors in that role.

The Minister said that by 2004 local authorities will be made up of councillors who are not Members of the Oireachtas and I have also read about this change. I suggest to the Minister that we reorganise local government, especially with regard to the constituencies. At local level the Minister should consider the single seat transferable vote. This change could be implemented by ministerial order – it would not need a referendum. A single seat transferable vote would mean better representation right across the country and each public representative would be responsible for his or her local area. This makes more sense than having four or five councillors competing in the same area, competing within their own parties and having officials wasting their time writing reports for each member. Local government would be far healthier if the single seat transferable vote system was in place. If it worked well then it could be introduced nationally at some time in the future. It should be introduced at local level in the short-term.

I agree with Senator Fitzpatrick that people are frustrated by housing and traffic problems and councils, particularly urban district councils, will have to face these challenges in the years ahead. Unfortunately, local authorities can only do so much. For instance, on the Order of the Business I mentioned that quality bus corridors costing £1 million each have been built in Dublin with the assistance of the Minister. Quality bus corridors are no good if we cannot use quality buses on them. The Stillorgan quality bus corridor is ready, but last week Dublin Corporation officials informed me that they will not put it into operation until Dublin Bus give a commitment to provide a certain amount of buses for that route. We must gain the confidence of the public. If we want to encourage commuters to leave their cars at home then we must provide suitable public transport that will run on a regular basis. If we do not, we will lose their confidence from the outset.

Bus corridors will be a disaster because the quality bus corridor will be empty and the remaining part of the road will be chock-a-block with traffic. We should inform commuters through the use of public advertisements that when the Stillorgan bus corridor commences, buses will operate at ten minute intervals. We should also advertise this fact well in advance of the opening date of the corridor. If we did all that we could substantially reduce the number of cars being driven into Dublin.

I know the Minister has given a great commitment to local government and I congratulate him on it. I had the experience of meeting him on a number of occasions during the past year. The last function I attended with him was related to the housing issue and was the occasion where the Docklands Authority introduced its social or shared housing scheme. That scheme is the way forward. We help people who would have earned enough to buy a house in the past but who are eliminated from the present market. I refer to married or cohabiting couples who have a joint income of £40,000 but cannot buy a house. They do not qualify for shared ownership schemes because they are well above the income guidelines. We should allow these people to get affordable housing through the shared ownership scheme.

Ms Cox

I am delighted to welcome the Minister to the House to debate the role of county councils. I joined Galway Corporation in 1995 and have four years experience working on it. The role of the county council is broken up into two parts. There is the role of the elected members or councillors who form the board of directors, so to speak. The other role is filled by the executive of the local authority which deals with operational matters. The key issue is about power and which group has that power. To find out who has the power we need to have a greater understanding of what is involved at all levels and who should be accountable for what they are doing.

There was a welcome change in gender balance in the last local election but it is not good enough. One might wonder why we need gender balance on county councils and corporations but the answer is obvious. The focus of men and women working in a town or city is different. I am not saying one is better than the other, but there is a difference of emphasis in the way issues are addressed and in the way work to be carried out by the corporation or the county council is prioritised. For instance, on a council where half the members are women there may be a greater emphasis placed on the provision of amenity services, quality facilities for children, playgrounds around a city, better guidelines with regard to planning permission and crèche facilities. If a council is gender balanced then it is more likely to address various issues. Men look at things from a male point of view and in a different way. We need both viewpoints and we need a gender balance. Unfortunately, we do not have gender balance and it is sadly lacking in local government.

With regard to the age profile of county councils and councillors, too many people were in local government for far too long. While these councillors have valuable experience to offer, it is important to have new councillors with new experiences and new ideas. Any measure that encourages new people should be welcomed. The Minister changed the situation with the gratuity scheme and I thank him for being part of that process.

The Minister mentioned education. It is vitally important to inform the public on what they can expect, to inform the people who work in local authorities about what they have to do and to educate and train councillors. Many organisations, for example partnership boards and centres for the unemployed, place a huge emphasis on, and secure funding for, the training and development of their employees. The councils have nothing. The Minister said that he intends to address this issue and it is vitally important that he should do so. County councils have a pile of new members now but there will be times in the next couple of years when new councillors come on board by virtue of co-options. These members are generally forgotten by the system and no one will remember that they are new to a council. They will not be shown how things work and they will have missed training that was provided in the initial stages. Whatever training is provided should be in a format that can be easily stored for reference.

When a new councillors start in any local authority it is the responsibility of the city manager to ensure that they receive the relevant training that every other member received. Perhaps computer based training could be provided. A programme could be put together and stored on a CD-ROM. When councillors are provided with a computer by the local authority they would have a training package which they could access at any time to refresh their memories.

Shortly before the elections the President invited representatives of local authorities to Áras an Uachtaráin to celebrate 100 years of local government. On that occasion she said that a local authority member's role in life was to make decisions between the disadvantaged and the disadvantaged. I remember her comment because it was interesting and true. When a local authority member makes a decision someone will always be worse off than the person supported. There is also someone who will be unhappy with a decision. That is one of the dilemmas local authority members must face. We have talked about the problems facing local authorities and part of their role is providing housing, traveller accommodation, transportation, water and refuse services, parks and amenities and planning. There is a lack of understanding among the public of what can be done by the local authority or councillor, and they cannot understand why the councillor cannot get a traffic light or pothole fixed or a light installed outside their door. These are not the responsibility of the councillor and until we change people's expectations of what councillors do, then we are not progressing and local government will not be as effective as it should be.

It has been eight years since the last election and at this election many people complained about what the local authority did not do. Some were successful in being elected on the basis of a very negative, knocking campaign. Would the Minister consider, as Galway Corporation is considering, introducing an annual review of customer satisfaction in every local authority area whereby the local authority will receive or lose some additional funding based on the survey? There should be a series of initiatives or awards for local authorities for best practice in areas such as road design, etc. These would encourage organisations to do better in their area, which would be recognised and would give them something for which they could strive. If the quality of services was measured at intervals, we could see how progress is being made. Progress will be slow but at least we would know that local authority services are improving. Some would say that councillors do not have a quality assessment but there is a quality assessment every five years which indicates how well councillors are perceived to be doing their jobs – either one makes it back at election time or one does not. This is not the case with the county council itself.

The strategic policy committees are a tremendous innovation. The enthusiasm with which many organisations and communities reacted to them is indicative of how successful they will be. We have to get them up and running. I urge the Minister to do whatever he can to get over the problems experienced with them. There should be a consensus on the management, delivery of service and the development of policies that are going to benefit our local authority areas.

Local government is vital to our continued economic growth. Good local government, rather than the booming economy, will maintain growth by providing roads and infrastructure which will foster innovation and a culture of development. I compliment the Minister on all the work he has done for local goverrnment in the past two and a half years.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I dtosach fáiltím roimh an tAire. Tá sé tráthúil go bhfuil an díospóirteacht seo ann díreach tar éis na dtoghchán áitiúla agus glacaim leis an deis seo chun tréaslú leis na Comhairleoirí a toghadh agus tréaslú freisin leo siúd a chuaigh san iomaíocht agus nár éirigh leo. Táimid go mór faoi chomaoin ag na Comhairleoirí a thugann seirbhís flaithiúil éifeachtach don phobal gach lá den bhliain.

Is é an rialtas áitiúil bunchloch an daonlathais mar bíonn ar na comhairleoirí a bheith i gcomhairle leis na daoine gach lá agus cabhraíonn na meáin chumarsáide áitiúla go mór leis sin chomh maith.

It is particularly appropriate that this debate has taken place so soon after the local elections. I congratulate those who have been elected and commiserate with those who have not been elected. The Minister has been very decisive and enlightened and it was evident that the public accepted the new remuneration package for local authority members in the spirit in which it was provided. This indicated the relevance which the local communities perceive to be attached to the local authorities.

There have been some rocky patches in the evolution of local government. Some years ago there were as many Green Papers as there was confetti at weddings and that was often the end of them but not so with this Minister. This is not a political knee-jerk reaction. He fully realises that to serve the people fully and to get the best return from expenditure, it is necessary to be somewhat radical in making changes, not change for the sake of it but fundamental change, which will provide not only the power but the resources for local authorities.

If one looks back at the advantages and disadvantages of the county management legislation, it was clear at times that there was an ongoing battle between public representatives and the county managers and the public suffered as a result. However, I have a different perception having worked for a local authority and also having served as a local authority member. There was a time in the history of local government when the management structure and the community were seen as separate entities. A new breed of county and city managers has emerged in the past 20 years who have proved themselves to be prepared for change when the opportunity arose. One of the greatest changes was their willingness to work in partnership with local communities which resulted in better value for money. In the past, communities who had ideas and projects for the betterment of their people often found themselves isolated without back-up or legislative support and totally dependent on the resources they could raise themselves. In recent years the county managers and officials were prepared to speak to local communities, work with them and, on many occasions, pool resources. Every village, town and city has projects which are the result of this type of partnership. This is only the tip of the iceberg and there are other ways in which this type of activity could be developed and enhanced.

I am delighted with the new developments on buildings of architectural, cultural and artistic value with which local authorities will have more involvement. The lack of input by local authorities resulted in the destruction of buildings of particular value because the real watchdogs were those working at local level who did not have the authority or the power. Often, before central government became aware of the destruction to which I am referring, the damage was done.

Local authorities will now have the opportunity to play a leading and decisive role. A further perception that existed among local authority members was that difficult decisions were handed down from central government for local government to implement. One would have to admit there was a certain element of truth in that. The powers were only increased when difficult decisions had to be implemented. The new atmosphere which prevails would suggest a consensus, based on demand and need and often on the needs not only of the advantaged and most vocal who have the platform but the social needs of the disadvantaged. These will grow from local level and will be taken on board at central government.

A matter that has caused me a certain amount of concern over the years is the restrictive practices which apply to the planning regulations. This will come to the fore when the new housing needs are discussed. It is evident now – Senator Doyle referred to it – and it does not apply only to the city but to provincial areas, that the same amount of land is not available for building. Even if it is available, it is at an exorbitant price. Yet there are some peripheral aspects of planning, at which the Minister might look, which of their nature are not necessary for good planning. Often that will rule out an applicant for planning permission, perhaps not being allowed build on one's own farm. I do not think there are many who would disagree with this and we could open up a great deal of land in the future.

There are people who had given long service to local government and who, because of their civic zeal, went forward in the local elections but were unsuccessful and therefore would not be beneficiaries under the remunerative package announced by the Minister. I note the Minister's comment today, that this was the position as it stood at the moment. I would like to think that, in the light of his own enlightened and decisive approach, we could interpret that as meaning the Minister would be prepared to look once again at that position. Nobody, neither those who were successful nor the local community, would raise any objection if the Minister were to extend his generosity and adopt a flexible approach in that regard.

Mr. Mooney

I, too, welcome the Minister. I am sure he has been blushing with embarrassment during the past hour as we have been showering him with praise for his reforming zeal. Those of us who have served on local authorities will have seen Ministers for the Environment and Local Government come and go, not all of whom have left their mark on either county councils or on their Department to the extent that history will concern itself with the detail of their administration. That is not true of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, because he has a reforming zeal that would do credit to a Baptist minister in the southern states of America when it comes to the reform of local government which has been generally welcomed.

It is interesting that he has achieved a consensus in what he has attempted to do considering the diversity of thinking and philosophy among local authority representatives and Members of both Houses. In that context I wish to dwell briefly on what he is proposing in relation to the role of local authorities. Although we have yet to see the legislation, the Minister has signalled, both in this House and publicly, that he intends to institute reforms that will be farreaching and will have a direct impact on the membership of the Houses, specifically the ending of the dual mandate and Deputies and Senators will no longer be able to contest local authority elections. I have always been of the view, and I believe it would be shared generally here, that that it is not a bad thing. I think the Minister gleaned that information from Members on all sides.

When framing the legislation perhaps there will be a role, even a peripheral role, for Deputies and Senators. My experience as member of a local council has shown – and the Minister in his role as a Deputy would concur – that a significantly high proportion of the representations made to a TD and to the Minister would be of a local authority nature and would not necessarily deal with legislative matters or matters we debate daily here. Given that the country is small, relatively speaking, there might be a danger inherent in going too far with reforms that might upset the delicate democratic balance that already exists – the linkage between the citizen and the elected representative. If that is cut off to the point where a TD or Senator is no longer perceived by those among whom they live and work as having an input into local authority matters, it may not be too long before the electorate, whom we are attempting to encourage to participate in the democratic process, find there is a vacuum. They may ask to whom they should go, if not to the TD or Senator, and whether the local authority member will meet all their needs. That leads to the question: what is the role of the TD and Senator? I am speaking only about perceptions, not reality. If the perception is that the TD or Senator spends all their time in Dublin, when it comes to seeking votes at the next election they may be asked on the doorstep what they are doing in the area given that they cannot get a house, that they cannot get the road outside their door repaired or a footpath put in. The TD or Senator will have to say that is a local authority matter. In an ideal world that should be the position. However, we have a culture that cannot be ignored and I think the Minister recognises that. My colleagues and I are interested in knowing what device the Minister will bring forward to maintain the close linkage, which is unique in western society, between the local representatives, the Dáil or Seanad representative and the ordinary people.

I have friends over from America, a mayor from New Jersey whom I hope will be the next democratic governor of New Jersey, Jim McCreevy, with his friends Jimmy Walsh and Seán Nolan. As we came into the House they met two or three Ministers. Their reaction was that that would not happen in America. We have an unique relationship between Ministers and those in the highest office and the ordinary citizen, and that is access. Irrespective of what linkage is devised, I hope that access in whatever form will continue.

Other Members have dwelt on the special policy committees and on the role for councillors. I welcome all of that. I would welcome also any initiatives the Minister has to provide salaries for councillors given that they will undertake a greater and wider role. I hope he will look at the powers of county managers with a view to providing a sensitive mix between extending the powers of elected local councillors, through the SPCs and within a plenary session of the council, and the traditional powers wielded by the county manager under the 1940 Act. That is critical to informing the ongoing debate about local government reform and to the outcome of the Minister's decision on how he will divide power at local level. If the powers of the county managers are retained it will prove an uphill battle for councillors elected recently. This is the case regardless of the SPCs or the powers they may be perceived to have. There must be an accommodation between these powers and the Minister's proposals.

Overall, what the Minister is doing is to be welcomed. When he introduces the legislation in the autumn I hope there will be a stimulating debate among those who have had the opportunity and the privilege to serve at local level. The Minister started his political career as a town commissioner and worked his way up to his present position. When he took office many councillors were pleased that he restored "Local Government" to the ministerial title. I wish him well.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 23 Jun 1999

Role of County Councils: Statements.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1999